The aching desire for business as usual is strong in our institutionalists:
REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES (D-NY): Well, great to be with you, Jake. Since the election we’ve made clear that we will work to find bipartisan common ground with the incoming administration on any issue whenever and wherever possible in order to make life better for the American people, but, of course, we will push back against far-right extremism whenever necessary. […]
TAPPER: Do you think the House Ethics Committee should report — should release the report on Gaetz even though he’s no longer a member of Congress, so it’s no longer his — their jurisdiction I suppose?
JEFFRIES: Well, the House Ethics Committee has traditionally operated in a bipartisan fashion. You know, I have great amount of trust and respect in the top Democrat on that committee, Representative Susan Wild. I haven’t had an opportunity to have a conversation with her about what’s possible.
Certainly, full transparency is always the preferred approach, but the House Ethics Committee has always operated in a straightforward fashion, not as part of a command and control structure connected to leadership from either the House Republican side or the House Democratic side, and I’m just hopeful that consistent with that background, with that history with the integrity of what the House Ethics Committee should represent, that it chooses to do the right thing, consistent with House rules and with the law.
That’s the way to put the milque in the toast. It’s notably weak from the man who’s potentially one election away from the third most powerful post in our government. Most importantly, it’s a lie. He seems like an intelligent guy, and any intelligent person who’s looked at the workings of the House for the last few decades knows that there’s no appetite for bipartisanship with the current crop of Republicans. They just don’t want it, nor does Jeffries’ caucus, nor does, probably, Jeffries.
What is the downside of Jeffries’ being at least a little bit honest in this moment? Would it hurt for him to say something to even slightly acknowledge the danger to the rule of law and public health posed by Trump’s latest appointments? Something like, “Serious allegations of illegal actions have been raised against Rep. Gaetz, and the nomination process for the chief law enforcement officer of the land should have all the facts.”
He can’t even get the tip of his pinky dirty because he’s so focused on protecting institutional norms (bipartisan independence of the Ethics Committee) that only Democrats follow. His counterpart, Rev. Speaker Johnson, has already called for the ethics report to be suppressed, and the committee is dutifully delaying votes.
The link above, and this link, go to Steve M’s detailed discussion of Hakeem Jeffries reaction to the nomination of Gaetz and RFK the lesser, for more context, and Steve M is on target here:
In this segment, Jeffries does the two terrible things Democrats invariably do when they get TV time: He embraces a bipartisan approach to governing that Republicans have rejected since the Newt Gingrich era thirty years ago, and he talks to the public as if all of his listeners read three print newspapers a day cover to cover and already know all the relevant facts. It’s a terrible approach to public communication.
I’ll add: if you’re going on TV, you should know that highlights are going to be clipped and spread on social media. Try not to generate demoralizing business-as-usual clips less than two weeks after a losing election. Get a little angry. Read this piece on RFK Jr a couple of times in the green room if you need some ammo. Read what Megan McCain’s husband wrote about Gaetz and what a filthy sex pest piece of shit he is. Do what it takes to appear that you care about the potential grave harm that’s coming down the pike for your constituents. Jesus, does it have to be so hard?
Betty Cracker
Quoting Radley Balko would be appropriate: (source: Bluesky)
JoyceH
I read that Jeffries quote trying to figure out what he was trying to accomplish, and it seems to me that with Speaker Moses already going belly up, perhaps he’s attempting to jump start the vestigial spine in at least one Republican on the Ethics Committee.
matt
Elected Officials Mildly Opposed to Fascism.
Chris Johnson
All this is very tricky, that’s for sure.
My main thing is that I don’t trust anybody who is trying to make me more angry. My litmus test of reality is not how angry it makes me, it’s the worldview I’ve constructed over time.
The second thing is that I’ve become a one-issue voter, and it’s Russia (shocking nobody). That means if the right-wing Russia hawks are talking, I’m listening very closely. Plus, that side of the aisle is way better at conspiring and blandly talking shit before putting the knife in, and we’ve just stopped being their biggest problem. For them, Red Dawn happened. It’s real. Moscow Rules. And they are NOT going to be performatively calling out Trump as a puppet, they’re going to be organizing, and I don’t envy them that, and I don’t want to hear a thing about it. The fewer people know, the better, because this is not a game.
By all means let’s all be distracted by being mad at Hakeem Jeffries for not emitting a haka at all times when a camera is on him. I think he’s smart enough to be handling this perfectly. Of course he has to play it this way. This is serious.
He could be signaling that he and his people are fully prepared to join the white mutiny and ensuing shivving of Putin’s puppet, that is telegraphed by the selection of Thune.
I don’t know, though, Trump is advised by Elon, RFK and Matt Gaetz (whether he likes it or not!). I’m sure that is a very hard brain trust to outwit.
matt
@Chris Johnson: you have a litmus test for reality that involves how it makes you feel?
Betty Cracker
@Chris Johnson: You know who was known as a right-wing Russia hawk? Lindsey Graham. They don’t have any principles. They just don’t.
bbleh
They ALL seem to be doing it — Senate Dems even more so — to the point that I can’t help but wonder whether there’s something other than “institutional norms” and “comity” and so on at work. A lot of the Senators are irretrievably stuck in a bygone era, but not so much the new House leaders. One possibility is simple cost-benefit: it will benefit nobody for them to pitch a fit, other than perhaps to make informed partisans (hardly a majority of the country) a little happier for a while, but it WOULD cost them in an avalanche of hate-mail, threats, and possibly even violence from the Moron-Americans, plus of course retribution from the Orange Idiot and the Rep leadership in Congress. Another possibility is that they’re thinking the circus is likely to implode soon, and/or the media are starting to feed on it, and they think it’s best to just stay out of the spotlight and let it all fall on the Republicans. (Not necessarily a bet I’d make, but certainly a nice rationalization for doing nothing.) Either way, as an informed partisan, I find the whole thing depressing.
Xavier
Democrats value bipartisanship, seemingly for its own sake. What Republicans want is nothing, except for protection of private property rights. Democracy is little more than mob rule, and a weak and ineffective government leaves room for private property interest to prevail.
Steve LaBonne
Jeffries’s job is to maneuver for the maximum influence his caucus can exert rather than taking his ball and going home while a tiny, unstable Republican majority rolls over them unimpeded, rather than working to divide them by keeping lines of communication open to non-Freedumb Republicans. His job is NOT to give us the feels we crave. People used to say the same crap about Pelosi. In both cases because they don’t understand the role of a legislative leader.
Look, it’s an underappreciated flaw of our system that the party that doesn’t hold the White House lacks a natural figurehead / spokesperson. But the minority leader of the House, whoever it may be, is never going to step into that role.
eclare
Oh fuck that shit. Supposedly he loves Biggie, take ya one advice.
kindness
Depending on Republican Senators to save us from the worst of Trump is a fool’s errand. I have my doubts any one of Trump’s picks won’t get confirmed.
narya
@Betty Cracker: I’ve always suspected major kompromat on him. Some are dumb (Tuberville), some are compromised (Graham), some may be both (Johnson?), some are extreme partisans (Cruz,
Greene), i.e., I don’t think there’s one overall reason. It does mean that some may find a spine–not betting on it, though.
@bbleh: Meh; they may be keeping their powder dry for now, and I’m okay with that. All of the mouth noises now–before the holidays, before the inauguration, etc.–are just that. Jeffries doesn’t even know what his caucus will be yet. It’s also easier to build your coalition and opposition behind the scenes, now, while all of the crowing and strutting is going on. Fingers crossed.
hueyplong
Trump has picked the only AG more reliably loyal than Barr was (while he was “serving”). Trump no doubt has all the goods on Gaetz and can literally make him do anything, either in private or in public. If we all come through this, the movie about it will include some pretty squirmy scenes.
Old Man Shadow
You’re really expecting too much of Democratic leaders.
They’re the type of people whose response to being put in death camps and scheduled for the ovens would be a strongly worded letter.
tobie
I’m not sure why but I’m more alarmed about Gabbard as DNI and Kennedy as head of HHS than Gaetz as AG. This is not to say that Gaetz isn’t absolutely horrible and the idea of him having the FBI beneath him makes me shudder. But temperamentally he is so unsuited for the role and would have no patience for the boring, painstaking work of building a case that I think he’ll be utterly incompetent. Meanwhile with Kennedy we will see all sorts of diseases return and all research into therapies for serious illnesses stop with the end effect that people will die. Gabbard will hand over every intelligence secret she can to the autocrats that she and Trump support. That keeps me up at night.
eclare
I cannot believe that I have to say this to Hakeem. The Ten Crack Commandments. Learn. Jeesh.
https://youtu.be/ZYb_8MM1tGQ?si=H33KtpFrVIKu9a01
Chris Johnson
@Betty Cracker: He is. He is also the least trustworthy man alive, and another likely candidate for Trump appointments, because he for whatever reason is completely and totally dominated. He squeaks from time to time if he thinks Putin is losing. This is not a time when he thinks Putin is losing.
The only thing I’m sad about is that the Russians aren’t going to trust him with important information, because he’ll roll over just as easily for American bullying.
Montanareddog
Jeffries, and all other Democrats, should be pounding one point, and one point only – if the report exonerates Butthead, the Republicans would release it immediately. So, why haven’t they?
@mistermix.bsky.social
@Steve LaBonne: I wrote and cut out an aside about how Jeffries and Pelosi lack the natural temperament to be fire breathers because the post was already too long, but I’m not asking for fire breathing. Just a clearer message with a touch more edge to it. That’s possible while still holding together a caucus.
Chris Johnson
@kindness: Trump picked Rick Scott.
Starfish
@bbleh: I agree that this is the plan.
Jeffries is not in the cheap seats like we are. He has to make bipartisan noises at the moment.
He has to give space to the Senate Republican leadership to reject bozos if they want to without having their voters ring up the Republican leadership saying “Hey, why are you doing what the Democrats want?”
If the Republicans conclude that RFK, Jr is going to ban ultra-processed food, and they really want terrible school lunches, then they have to come to that conclusion on their own.
If the Senators do seat RFK, Jr, then we cross that bridge when we get there.
There is no reason for Jeffries to self-immolate on this issue right now.
tobie
@Montanareddog: Nice framing. I hope someone in power listens to you.
eclare
@eclare:
Supposedly he loves Biggie. So take a lesson!
JoeyJoeJoe
@eclare: I asked Jeffries once, in 2018, who his favorite rapper was; it’s Jay Z, apparently, if I remember right
eclare
@JoeyJoeJoe:
Jay Z? Wow. That is some bad taste.
CliosFanBoy
I posted on the Bluesky account for my rep (Beyer D-VA) that we need someone who will fight trump. So far all Congressional Democrats seem willing to do is hospice care.
AM in NC
@Montanareddog: 100% this. And we should be commenting about this everywhere. Online and writing post-it notes and leaving them everywhere.
“Trump nominated a sex trafficker of teen girls as America’s Top Cop. Why are Republicans burying the House Report on Matt Gaetz and the sex trafficking of teen girls?”
CliosFanBoy
So, what’s the finalish total for the popular votes?
Enhanced Voting Techniques
From what I read most of the Republicans in congress despise Gaetz personally but don’t want to go on the record as endorsing or opposing him as AG. So I think it’s safe bet that they want the Dems to clean up their mess and Dems aren’t having any part of it.
Hildebrand
The Domenech piece (and others of its ilk that will undoubtedly be rolled out as purely performative outrage) pisses me off – because he doesn’t do the one thing that needs to be done, go after Trump, and do it big, for being the brain-dead knave who nominated the sex pest in the first place.
It’s the same problem that the legacy media still has – they just can’t flush Trump, because he is too valuable as a reliable income stream.
Any newspaper or media company that can’t call Trump what he is doesn’t deserve your money.
Steve LaBonne
@CliosFanBoy: Trump has fallen under 50%.
Archon
@Starfish: Seriously, why does Jeffries have to even go through the charades of bipartisanship? I guess that might potentially protect some Dem congressperson/Trump voters but to talk about bipartisanship when Democrats are genuinely concerned if liberal democracy will exist in a few years is demoralizing.
TBone
The fascists would like us to be exhausted and paralyzed by outrage fatigue. Jeffries withheld his outrage and I’m hoping that he’s not as milquetoast as he’d like rethugs to believe.
At the supermarket, I loudly complimented an older couple quartet who hadn’t seen in each other in a while, because the MEN set the example by unabashedly hugging and smiling first, right away. I gave a shoutout about their tonic masculinity and they knew what I was singing about, they knew those words! People all around going about their shopping got some good zingers from me today, lots of laughing and smiling despite the prices.
Jeffg166
The American public decided to flush democracy down the toilet November 5th. When it comes back to bite them in the ass it’s going to be too later to do anything about it.
The felon is in the process of seeing how much he can get away with. Apparently anything he wants.
Talking to my 89 year old neighbor who voted for the felon, thinks Kennedy is crazy. The other nominations are giving him pause. I told his this is what you voted for.
Baud
@Jeffg166:
Good on you.
Sister Golden Bear
@Betty Cracker: Hmmm. Maybe accusing queer/trans people of being “groomers” had nothing to do with actually protecting minors, and everything to do with creating a blood libel to justify eradicating us….
different-church-lady
Well, I trust the leadership that does this professionally more than I trust some people who comment on… oh fuck it, I can’t do this anymore HEAD DESK HEAD DESK HEAD DESK….
trollhattan
@CliosFanBoy: As of today 150.2 million between Trump and Harris, 76.5/73.8 respectively.
https://www.reuters.com/graphics/USA-ELECTION/RESULTS/zjpqnemxwvx/president/
different-church-lady
@Jeffg166:
Everyone should practice saying this, because it’s gonna need to be said a lot.
Montanareddog
@Enhanced Voting Techniques:
I don’t care. Take that depraved motherfucker down. At this point, any sign of a spine in Democratic leadership is essential to rally the troops.
different-church-lady
Realization from earlier this morning: by the time you’re arguing about rearranging the ticket it’s already too late.
The return of Mo Salad
Jasmine Crockett is going after Debbie Dingell for communications chair. I hope she succeeds. The sooner she climbs the leadership ladder, the better.
different-church-lady
@Montanareddog: I saw next to zero spine in July, I’m not expecting to see any now.
frosty
@CliosFanBoy: Finish total for popular votes isn;t done yet. Last I saw the Biden to Harris drop off went down from 10 MM to 8 MM.
trollhattan
@The return of Mo Salad:
Was rubbing my eyes after first reading that as Jiminy Cricket.
The Truffle
Elizabeth Warren also said she would be willing to work with Trump in 2016. We know what happened next.
They are tossing a cookie. That is all.
Raoul Paste
@AM in NC: That’s exactly how it should be framed.
i’m recalling the scene in Buckaroo Bonzai when he says “You’ve got his job”
Betty Cracker
As Beutler said on Bluesky, how about, “if Republicans block the release of this report, they’ll be complicit in a party-wide cover up of a child sex-trafficking scandal.”
Short and to the point. If bipartisan mouth noises are required, maybe add, “In the spirit of bipartisanship, I hope Republicans join us in blocking this notorious sex pest from the top law enforcement job in America.”
Sure Lurkalot
I guess we’ll find out if Jeffries is playing some at some high level in a video game or keeping his powder dry but many Americans are scared shitless right now and for those who haven’t checked out, I’m not sure how comforting this comity is.
I keep hearing how normies love bipartisanship but a lot of them don’t vote that way.
Trump incited an insurrection, filed over 60 lawsuits and had various operatives working on schemes to keep him in office, set up a toady to thwart the transition, didn’t show his hideous mug at the inauguration and kept the big lie going for 2 years…my bad if Biden’s 2-hour cordial meeting with Trump to discuss the peaceful transfer of power seems a bit dystopian.
Maybe Biden wants his presidency to end showing America what respect for law and norms means but I personally preferred the SOTU Biden that took it to his opposition and the campaign Biden who clearly delineated the dangers of re-electing Trump.
Geminid
@Betty Cracker: I bet Senators will see that report before too long whether it’s leaked publically or not. One aspect of this affair that will hurt Gaetz is how many of his House Caucus colleagues hate his guts. They’ll get the information into the proper hands, I think.
Starfish
@Sure Lurkalot: I am old enough to remember when everyone was very sad that Obama did not endorse Harris fast enough, he waited a few days to keep her candidacy in the news cycle by endorsing a few days after everyone else.
TBone
@Starfish: 👍🎯
John S.
Jesus Christ, is this how the next 4 years is going to be around here?
We’re not allowed to critique our own people because… we should trust the Democratic leadership even when they fuck up because…
If Democrats want to cheerlead every bungle and mistake just for the sake of supporting our team, then we might as well just become Republicans.
If we want to get back in power, we need to learn from our mistakes. We can’t just wait for Republicans to self-destruct. Those victories don’t last.
Omnes Omnibus
@John S.: Thank god we have you to correct our wrong thinking. I, for one, will be eternally grateful.
Chris Johnson
I would like him to keep on thinking that right up to the moment the shiv touches him.
May its kisses not be shallow.
I doubt he’ll be that much of a fool, but he too has to act the part, so at least he’ll be acting like that
As for fresh new leadership, just make sure they aren’t Jill Fucking Stein.
John S.
@Omnes Omnibus:
I have never once suggested that my mode of thinking is the right way, but at least I’m willing to have a discussion.
What a smug prick you are.
Miss Bianca
@Jeffg166: What was his response?
Fair Economist
Unfortunately if Jeffries says anything like what people are asking for, all the news reports will be HAKEEM JEFFRIES CALLS FOR PARTISAN WITCH HUNT. And from then on they’ll say nothing about Gaetz raping drugged teenagers, because all the discussion will be about how Democrats want to violate bipartisan norms.
JWR
@Hildebrand:
I’ve only now started to watch, listen to or even read any “news” at all, but you’re right, our media betters are scrambling to normalize Trump and his ill suited cabinet picks instead of just telling the truth about what this all means for the American Experience. Namely, its literal death.
Omnes Omnibus
@John S.: Discussion, lecture…. What’s the difference, right?
Omnes Omnibus
I would like to apologize to the rest of the commenters for let my irritation with a particular commenter buck up this thread. I’ll bow out here.
John S.
@Omnes Omnibus:
We are all very grateful that you came down from your mountain of intellectual superiority to even bother to speak with the little people.
ETA: If you decide to continue to be butthurt because you were an asshole yesterday and I called you out for it, that’s on you. Not me.
Sure Lurkalot
@Fair Economist:
You’re probably correct. But fucking Federalist Society stooge Ben Domenech gets to speak truth to power that a sex pest who courted underage girls shouldn’t be America’s top cop.
Chris Johnson
@JWR: I would have said that is because they are controlled, right down to the big ‘TRUTH’ banner on the NYT (better in the original Russian, and clearly another flex) and that Fair Economist is 100% right about what would happen the instant our side doesn’t present the APPEARANCE of perfect comity.
They need scapegoats for the tyranny SO badly. So badly. Their control depends on being able to trot out colorful monsters even if they have to invent them. When they use AI and the monsters (or minority allies) have twelve fingers, the mockery is more useful to us than a thousand screaming denunciations…
Betty
@Betty Cracker: Yes. If Jeffries just talks about making nice, it reinforces the idea that Democrats are weak and not capable of standing up for the people. It pleases the likes of Jake Tapper, and what has that ever done to benefit the Democratic agenda? At least say something to show you care about the stakes.
Geminid
Personally, I think that when Hakeem Jeffries says something, instead of deciding what’s wrong with it people would do better to figure why he said it and what might be right with it. And then keep watching him, because Jeffries works with a purpose.
People could learn a lot about politics from Hakeem Jeffries, but they can’t learn from someone when they think they know more than him.
p.a.
To inject a little positivity, FTFNYT via Atrios:
hrprogressive
The current democratic party does not give a shit about regular people, they only care about their own wealth and privilege.
This will not change until the current party is by and large replaced by newer, younger, savvier people.
trollhattan
@p.a.:
Here’s hoping they get a really thorough detailer to go through Rudy’s Merc, focusing especially on the upholstery.
TBone
@hrprogressive: My Senator Jawn Fetterman, and his wife Gisele, do indeed give a shit about us.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/sen-john-fetterman-says-democrats-cant-get-freaked-out-over-every-move-trump-makes/ar-AA1ucBW7
The Truffle
@Betty: That is the job of someone else. Gavin Newsom, for instance. This is just a gesture on Jeffries’ part.
jowriter
@Omnes Omnibus: No apologies are necessary. Pie is a utilitarian fix that I use to mitigate my annoyance.
different-church-lady
@John S.:
Not sure what thread you’re reading, but I’m seeing plenty of “critique” right here in this one.
different-church-lady
@TBone: He’s right: we can’t get freaked out over every move, because we ought to be already in a continuous state of freak out.
Jeffg166
@Miss Bianca:
He tries to defend his position by telling me how bad Harris would have been. I replied his listens to too much right wing radio. He is inside the right wing bubble. Until it effects him it doesn’t matter.
eemom
@Fair Economist:
Oh for fuck’s sake.
Yes, our leaders should by all means refrain from speaking truth, lest the same media that shits on Dems and normalizes fascism every fucking day and got us to where we are keep right on doing what they do.
Instead of, you know, doing something to at least try to wrest control of the narrative back from normalizing fascism.
The sheep bleating here boggles the fucking mind.
TBone
@different-church-lady: I can’t operate like that, 30+ years of hearing & transcribing horror stories in various law offices, plus working for some old guard rethuglicans in a County that used to be populated by nothing but, law-wise, has given me a tough hide not easily pierced. Of course I’m fully aware of what’s coming but then those years of training kick in – don’t lose your cool or you’ll be living in a van down by the river.
Served me well living and working in Texas & Philly law (offices) too.
eemom
And thank you to MM for discontinuing the sheep bleating Dear Leaderhood that’s infested this blog for years.
scav
@different-church-lady: I think a continual state of appall would be easier to maintain than continual freakout, while also allowing perhaps a modicum of non-spasmodic effort. Periods of absolute freakout certainly, both to vary the mood and for aerobic health.
John S.
@different-church-lady:
Sure, in response to the overwhelming sentiment of “leave Hakeem Jeffries alooooone!” And much of the rationale for that is little more than “you’re not smart enough to understand”.
Telling people they’re too stupid to understand what’s good for them and that you’re smarter than them (even if it’s true!) is a pretty good reason we got shellacked in this election.
different-church-lady
@TBone: My tongue was in my cheek. But speaking seriously, when it comes to whether I end up in van by the river, I don’t feel like I have any control whatsoever over that anymore. We’re all just fuckin’ passengers on a crazy train, and it’s an express.
AM in NC
@Jeffg166: I’m glad you told your neighbor that. Doesn’t have to be ugly, but it needs to be said. THEY did this, and they need to know this is what they did. Because they sure don’t hear it from their propaganda bubbles.
jowriter
@Geminid: Agreed. He is a very smart, tuned-in individual. Speaker Emeritus has bullhorned over him in this difficult timeline and he’s kept his powder dry. The man has my respect.
Ramona
@narya: On dems keeping their powder dry, Dan Pfeiffer made an excellent point yesterday on Pod Save America. I will try to clumsily paraphrase here. He was interrupted by Jon Favreau so it took a while for him to articulate the point. As I understood what he said, the non MAGA Trump voter made a protest vote against the elite institutionalists. If Democrats rush in as institutionalists to uphold the “System” as is the Democratic wont, then the average uninformed voter will continue to see Democrats as the elitists acting against their brave Trump in defense of an unfair system. Pfeiffer suggests the Democrats handle this by being open to Trump’s nominees and using any hearings to repeatedly ask how the nominee plans on acting to the benefit of the average person as opposed to the billionaires. He further pointed out that recess appointments are a danger to Trump because the press will go on a feeding frenzy and all kinds of details like deep dives into finances of the nominees will come out and Trump hates bad press and will pull the nominees.
AOC’s conversations with those of her voters who also voted for Trump convinced me that this anti-system orientation is what gave Trump his slim win and so Pfeiffer sounds right to me.
It’s true and slightly ironic that if Jeffries is following this play, (coincidentally?) envisioned by Pfeiffer, then Jeffries must play the institutionalist in this, the first act.
If Pfeiffer is right and if Democrats have come to the same conclusion then such a clever patient non-blustery but “inform by stealth” strategy might go a long way towards fostering a sense in the air that Trump is only for his rich buddies.
We could try to test the hypothesis of whether Trump is a symbol of protest by asking the Trump voters in our lives what he represents to them. They may say good economy, control crime and immigration. We could ask if they think he’ll do these in a way any other Republican might or if he is different from other Republicans. We have no way of turning these anecdotes to data but the range of answers we get as to how his voters perceive Trump with respect to other Republicans could be useful.
We can gently begin to plant doubt by asking what they hope to see from his administration in the next four years. They will spout nonsense of course but now that I know that their nonsense might come from a place of powerless fury with the wealthy who to a great extent control the country we live in, I think I might now have the patience to ask which things they’ll be watching out for to see if their hopes are realized.
I daresay that such a question will prime them to watch his administration more carefully. If when he proposes something, we ask again if this proposed law is in line with what they had shared earlier, they may say they have no idea what this new law is, and then we say, oh, I was hoping I could get the information from you because when i caught this on the garage tv when I went to get my tires rotated I remembered your telling me when I asked you before that such and such was your vision for how we should direct this country. I can’t be sure if I got it right but it seemed to have something to do with such and such and such. I’ll be eager to hear your take on it when you get the chance.
I was watching a young earnest YouTuber ask a Trump voter, a small business owner who bought blank t-shirts and printed them, whom he thought paid the tariffs. This was before the election. The young Trumpie was very sure that the exporting country paid the tariff. He told him that in fact the importer paid the tariff. The guy was adamant that the exporter paid the tariff. The questioner asked him about who paid sales tax. The business owner said that he did and passed it on to the customer. I saw doubt creep into his eyes then. The questioner called a big guy over who just seemed to be passing by and I forget what was said. The big guy looked at the tee-shirt selling Trumpie. Big guy had his hands in his pockets and said looking Trumpie straight in the eye, “Who do you think pays the tariff?” Trumpie guy said nothing. Big guy repeated the question. Trumpie guy said nothing. Big guy said, “We do!” and walked away. After big guy walked off Trumpie guy said almost to himself, “We pay the tariffs”. I don’t think that he was convinced by the assertions made by the two other men. I saw in his eyes when the epiphany occurred to him. He’d just never subjected the idea to interrogation. It was the process of questioning that brought him to the answer.
I don’t know of any educational system in the world which congratulates a child for a bold wrong answer. But, the process of thinking, as embodied in the scientific method, has to go down wrong paths in order to proceed to better approximations of reality.
But, schooling has instilled in most people the idea that their first idea about something had better be the right one. This cuts off inquiry before it even starts and the shame instilled in childhood about being wrong about something dooms every political discussion between opposing parties to acrimonious one-up-man-ships. If we could disseminate the idea that the process of thought is of necessity a process of making many wrong assumptions and then correcting them then we’d be much much better off.
Perhaps we should start telling children, that is correct! Now tell me two other things that are wrong.
I once asked my boss at the time during the brief period I was employed as the only Electrical Engineering PhD on a team (hence much admired and much resented, and a short fat potty-mouthed untidily dressed, incapable of waking up before 11AM Asian Indian woman to boot) what the essence of the Scientific method was. He has a Bachelor’s in Electrical Engineering and is very bright. He said the Scientific method is the search for truth. I said that science had no interest in truth. I told him that the essence of the Scientific method is Doubt. He didn’t believe me.
Of course, I’m not talking about the blanket doubt of the type thrown on the moon landing by conspiracy theorists. I’m talking about doubt as a precisely honed mental tool accompanied with the knowledge of when to pick it up, where to apply it and the judgment to know when and under what conditions a precise doubt can be put to rest.
Can we patiently continue to develop this faculty of precise doubting and model it as something positive to those of us who have been conditioned to consider uncertainty in themselves as shameful?
TBone
@different-church-lady: I’m also on board, holding on for dear life, positive that the light at the end of the tunnel is just an oncoming train! But damn it to hell, panic is contagious and not conducive to preventing anything.
Steadfast joy, love, and positivity is me setting an example and spitting right in fascist eyes.
Geminid
@jowriter: Jeffries also has two good deputies in Whip Katherine Clark and Caucus Chairman Pete Aguilar. That’s a very capable leadership team.
Ramona
@Enhanced Voting Techniques: and nor should they
different-church-lady
@Ramona: “And that’s how the sex pest wound up being Attorney General.”
John S.
@TBone:
I’m holding on for dear life, too. But according to a lot of people here, I’m not because groceries really aren’t actually expensive if you look at the right chart, and I should be able to pay my mortgage just fine because of BLS data.
That said, I’m not outraged or despaired. I expect Trump 2.0 to be an epic shit show. I just didn’t expect Democrats to walk away from this bloodbath thinking the same ol’ same ol’ will work.
Ramona
@Steve LaBonne: aw, that’s worse then when I last saw it when it was 49.9 to 48.5. I hope it shifts more in her favor by the time the tally is done.
different-church-lady
WaPo headline: “Democrats, reeling from election losses, cast blame on each other”
[accompanied by a picture of Bernie Sanders with his finger in the air]
Fuck this shit.
Ramona
@TBone: What did you sing?
Starfish
@eemom: I am glad you are back, and I was disappointed at how hard the turn was towards yelling at people for not being aligned with the dominant viewpoint. It really wasn’t healthy.
jowriter
@different-church-lady: Oh, god. Wish I could pie WAPO.
John S.
@different-church-lady:
Well the headline should be “Democrats vow to fight for Americans in the Trump era” but that doesn’t really seem to be happening.
I saw one about Elizabeth Warren calling for action over the next 50 days, but that seems to be falling on deaf ears.
It’s more important that we talk about bipartisanship and how we’re going to try and work with Republicans while they’re slitting our throats.
Starfish
@John S.: You know, I agree that “Economics explaining” to folks who couldn’t afford to feed themselves was not the right move.
But the way that some commenters are repeatedly trying to run folks off for not being aligned on every issue is not a good use of energy at this time.
Once, I crossed the line of dedication to pets that is expected in this blog because my child was allergic to the cat, and we had to re-home the cat and did not re-home the 1 yo.
That 1 yo is now 14, and we decided to keep him, even if he has a cold right now and is attempting to spread disease.
Ramona
@Jeffg166: You should ask him for the next lottery numbers since he knows the future so well!
The above is my most recent old self.
The brand spanking new self (as manifest in my previous long ass comment) shell still wet and soft would say, “What were your hopes for his administration? Have you considered writing to Trump to commmunicate your apprehension?”
different-church-lady
@Starfish: Does the 1 yo have all his shots?
p.a.
The Onion, what Dems learned from 2024: try to appeal to a larger demographic than the Cheney family.
Laughing thru tears…
Starfish
@different-church-lady: He is 14, and he does have all his shots.
The high school he will attend next year tends to have a big outbreak of vaccine-preventable disease every few years because parents can opt out of vaccines due to religion or philosophical beliefs.
What Have the Romans Ever Done for Us?
@different-church-lady: I don’t want to insult them into digging in. It’d be nice to find a formula that acknowledges they done fucked up by voting for him and somehow convinced them to vote for a Democrat next time there’s an election. But yeah this is what you voted for so maybe vote team Dem next time is basically what we have to convey.
Ramona
LOVE THIS!
What Have the Romans Ever Done for Us?
I think Jeffries is trying to convey that Democrats are reasonable so as Trump overreaches, like he’s already doing, the blame and blowback fall entirely on Republicans. I could be wrong though.
Suzanne
I’m a big supporter of Real Talk. I love Hakeem, but we need a different tone for a good interval.
Starfish
@Suzanne: I really like Jeffries and think he is really smart.
Here, he is explaining what he is doing. He is focusing on the important issues. The Trump clown parade is the Senate’s problem and not his.
Ramona
@different-church-lady: you are right that there is an even chance that happens. We spend the next century hanging “Sex Pest” on Republicans. Granted, we’ll have to do that without the help of the MSM. The Democratic party should start sitting down for interviews with the very vibrant young YouTube and podcast influencers like Meidas Touch, Brian Tyler Cohen, David Pakman and we should blast it on Blueskym Facebook (yuk).
That would pay off in dividends much more than the sex pest kind of harm the sex pest could do as a sex pest. The harm to the reputation and careers of good people that he would go after is the harm any Trump AG would do.
I do wish that Gaetz could be charged with statutory rape in Florida.
I didn’t wait for the end of the clip showing the old interview of IIRC Eric Mullins (not clear on the name). But did the interviewer ask him what he personally planned to do about Matt Gates?
Why isn’t the press going nuts with such a juicy story?
RaflW
Jeffries is leading his caucus, but he’s also responding to what those in his caucus say & want. So if we want Jeffries to behave differently, we have to influence our Reps.
If you live in a Dem. represented district, have your Rep’s office phone number handy, and use it. Follow up with email, but calls really are the thing (I hate calling, I admit. I’m tryna buck myself up here, too).
Like, I’m livid that Rep. Angie Craig voted for the p.o.s. HR 9495 that would give Trump’s admin the ability to nuke nonprofit tax exemptions. I don’t live in her dist, but it’s in my metro, so I’m working my network to get people to call her office and pester her. I’m getting some traction.
IOW, we have to be the ones demanding that Dems have a spine. That’s the work.
Baud
@different-church-lady:
If he gets in as Attorney General, I wouldn’t look askance if people started referring to him as General Pedophile.
Glory b
Come on, you guys know how the media does with “Angry Black Man.”
Jeffries can’t go there.
different-church-lady
@Ramona: The problem is you’re saying sex pest like the electorate still thinks its a bad thing.
different-church-lady
@Baud: C’mon: Pedophile General
MagdaInBlack
@John S.: Several discussions of this lately in my office: folks like you and me, and a lot of people I know, have not seen an increase in wages, while our expenses have definitely increased. We agree the economy is better than any other country, and that’s a good thing. But knowing others are in worse shape does not pay our bills.
And ya I expect a shit show.
prn
@Omnes Omnibus: Please stay, I always find your comments interesting and well-reasoned, especially regarding legal stuff
Geminid
@Ramona: Sounds like you are talking about Senator Markwayne Mullin (OK). Mullin served with Gaetz before he advanced to the Senate.
Mullin probably wouldn’t tell a newspaper reporter what he would do about Gaetz. But I bet he’s already told his Senate colleagues every last bad story he has on Gaetz. Senators will get an earful from other Republican Representatives. Gaetz has made plenty of enemies within the Republican House Caucus, and they will try to sink him.
schrodingers_cat
@Omnes Omnibus: He has appeared to grant us this knowledge from Mt. Trollympus.
Sure Lurkalot
@Ramona:
In that vein, here’s a list of some of Trump’s promises, a few “populist”, a lot fascist and overthrowing the deep state…a little something for everyone who voted for him. Might be good to cite if/when he doesn’t fulfill the fevered dreams of our Trumpy friends, workmates, neighbors and relatives.
https://meidasnews.com/video/trumps-93-campaign-promises
prn
@Fair Economist: This. Don’t draw attention from the Republican clusterfuck, and don’t feed the bothsiders
TF79
@different-church-lady: I’d wager that the electorate by and large doesn’t know what “sex pest” means.
John S.
@schrodingers_cat:
Says the person who literally spends every thread screaming about white people, and threatening to go away only to return and start all over again.
But I’m the troll. LOL
Baud
@TF79:
Agreed. In-group terminology is not our friend.
Miss Bianca
@Glory b: Sadly, yeah…that would have to be a factor in HJ’s responses to anything.
TBone
@Starfish: thank you for sharing that video.
laura
I don’t recall which particular jackal recommended the Carl Hiaasen series of books that revolve around Skink, but Damn! Audible has the first three in the series free for download or listening and whoo whee, just crazy town coocoo bananas. It makes for good respite.
TBone
Has anyone read ‘Love in the Time of Cholera’? I thought the title of this post might be a sort of reference to that novel.
It’s been a while, so I had to refresh my memory of it on the Wiki.
See ‘Themes’ section:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Love_in_the_Time_of_Cholera
LAC
@John S.: you are and enjoy your pie, stye.
trollhattan
@laura:
Love Hiaasen and bet the audio versions are fun. He understood Florida Man decades before the meme.
gene108
Republicans get 3/5’s to 2/3’s of the white male vote, nationally, in any given election. Republicans therefore represent the very serious people in society. The people who run things. The leaders in their communities in both politics and business.
Democrats represent some questionable people like transgender people, other LGBTQ+ people, black people, the majority of women voters, and other groups that have typically never been treated as the very serious people in society.
Questioning the credibility of Democratic goals and not Republican goals comes down to who our respective voters are and the place they’ve typically occupied in society and still mostly occupy.
MagdaInBlack
@TBone: For some reason not a fan of Marquez, so I’m familiar but have not read it. However, my Isabel Allende library is complete ❤️
Baud
@gene108:
100%
TBone
@MagdaInBlack: 💜✊
The Wiki section on Themes in my link illustrates the range of opinion here IMO, roundabout.
Ksmiami
@Archon: agreed. Time for maximum push back
zhena gogolia
@different-church-lady: Well, gee, I wonder where they got that idea?
prn
@TBone: My therapist had similar things to say yesterday (Yes, we talk politics because all my most serious problems are impacted by politics right now, luckily she’s Team Blue 100%)
She said, it’s okay to not know what to do right now and to disengage, not forever but just for a while. The most important thing is to get your mind and body healthy as possible, build up support systems, and rejoin the fight later when it’s clearer what actions might be the most beneficial
My gut feeling is let the Republicans hang themselves. Adding to the noise is not in our best interests right now. After the shit hits the fan, closer to the election, is when messaging will be more effective
And I’m not dismissing those who are suffering now. I’m in a precarious spot financially myself, and I fully expect it to get worse. It’s cathartic to vent and to see others rage, but it just might not be the best approach right now
trollhattan
Meet the next Possum Queen/alternative facts purveyor.
H/T Digby
Ksmiami
@What Have the Romans Ever Done for Us?: when Biden won, did the GOP make any overtures? No, well fuck them again. No time for mealy mouthed crap. Trump didn’t Even get a huge majority at all
TBone
@prn: 👍 I’m glad you have wise counsel to receive, and also to give!
TBone
@trollhattan: she has a direct line to Bannon (on a burner phone). I’m waiting for Donold to nominate Roger Stone for a cabinet position next
Glory b
@hrprogressive: Savvier? Not many of them seem to have ever taken a civics class.
prn
@Ramona: Thank you for this. Socratic method in action. Gently lead people to figure things out for themselves
MagdaInBlack
@TBone: Half of Gaetz staff was from Bannon’s “Warroom” staff. Ain’t that fun?
Mr. Bemused Senior
@laura: thanks, I will give it a try.
Ksmiami
@John S.: the biggest mistake the Dems did throughout Biden’s term was not branding and politicking constantly. And here we are, so yeah unless the Democratic Party heads start turning this around, they cannot win.
Chris Johnson
@LAC: You know there can be a tag-team thing going on, right?
It’s literally impossible to tell who’s that kind, and who’s just mad and flipping out. That’s what trolls try to produce so it stands to reason it’s got to work on some real people. Plus, the consequences now of it NOT working are so dire that you’ve got to expect it. For us to refuse to march on Washington waving pussy hats is very bad news for the fascists who need such a march, and need it to turn violent to justify extreme measures.
It’s like some people haven’t paid attention to how fascists manufacture consent at all.
Don’t feed the trolls, that’s what the pie filter is for: AND for muting regular people who are having an episode. You don’t have to know which is which. You can use the toggle control to keep checking to see if you were right. I respond to people whom I’m certain are trolls and whom I’ve got pied, so you can’t go by that: I just have to ‘toggle’ which is a reminder that I don’t trust them, but can’t ever know which they really are.
Bottom line is I go by how badly they want me to play into a civil war and fling myself into the breach. Wanting me to hate my own side is also good, especially either AS ‘leftist’ or AGAINST ‘leftist. Wanting me to hate Republicans is most forgivable, but I’ve grown up with people who took a wrong path and stopped confiding in me and I know how they gave themselves brainworms, so I’ll care about what lines they can still draw. I’m in recovery so that crowd has to want to help the still-suffering addict or die, and we’re used to the people we’re helping being flaming dumpster fires and fuckups. If they still are many years later, they best compartmentalize that or they will risk relapse for themselves.
John S.
@Ksmiami:
It doesn’t matter what actually happens, Republicans keep acting like they have the biggest majorities ever, even when they don’t. Hell, they just pretended the 2020 election didn’t really count. And when they’re in the minority, they just keep on acting like they run the show.
I’m waiting with bated breath to see how Democrats handle them actually controlling all branches of government. Because it was pretty horrifying when they just acted like they did.
TBone
@John S.: it’s only been ten days since 11/5, and we Dems are still in the White House and Senate. Dems have had time to game this out, but to actually act, I’ma give them more time than ten days.
prn
@different-church-lady: He’s going to get confirmed if Trump wants him, one way or another. I don’t think there’s anything Jeffries can do to change that. We need to play the long game
John S.
@TBone:
I’ll check back in with you in 50 days to see how things are going. But that time is gonna run out pretty fast.
TBone
@MagdaInBlack: 🤮👹
Possibly Stone and Hegseth can co-head the Defense Dept.
Maybe get matching tattoos.
Chris Johnson
@John S.: Do they, though? Because I’m seeing a schism. More will be revealed. They want power, sure enough, but Trump is booby-trapped. They have bigger problems than us now. I will warm to them if they manage to deal with it, even though I still have huge amounts of distaste for them as creepy paranoid militia fucks.
Congrats, you justified your paranoia, you guys. Bigtime. Deal with it. They should be in hog heaven.
Anyway
Yep, also recent (naturalized) immigrants. We keep railing about the mainstream media. They don’t respect the D coalition and when it doesn’t manage to win elections it reinforces their biases.
Geminid
@prn: I am not so sure Gaetz will be confirmed. In fact, if I had to bet I’d bet he won’t be.
John S.
@Chris Johnson:
I don’t share your view that throwing Brer Rabbit into the briar patch is going to be as catastrophic as you describe. And I’m certainly not going to try and rationalize that the position that Democrats are in is more favorable than Republicans.
Time will tell how this shakes out. We all have our hypotheses, and the experiment is about to begin.
TBone
@Geminid: Donold might simply adjourn Congress as the Constitution gives him the power to do, and recess all noms. Dominance move.
John S.
@TBone:
Gee, I can’t wait. Maybe for an encore they will actually destroy the Department of Education and eliminate IEPs for all special needs kids. Major dominance move there.
Geminid
@TBone: Yeah, I hear about research appointments. I guess I’ll hear plenty more before the new Congress even meets.
So I guess I should have said I’d bet Gaetz wouldn’t be confirmed by Senate vote.
Ksmiami
@John S.: I’m asking that we do the same. The Republicans offer nothing but pain and suffering. Call them out
Ajabu
@Geminid:
I have complete trust in Hakeem Jeffries. I believe he’s one of the smartest people in the government and knows precisely what he’s doing and saying and why. Nancy Pelosi knew exactly what she was doing when she selected him as her successor. Neither she nor Hakeem have ever gotten played and I doubt he’s being played this time. Hakeem has a plan, i’m sure.
Glory b
@John S.: We didn’t get shellacked, Trump won by about 1.8% as of a recent count.
We lost because too many people didn’t want to vote for a black lady.
You should read “Dying of Whiteness, How the Politics of Racial Resentment is Killing America’s Heartland.”
By Jonathan Metzl.
The Thin Black Duke
@Glory b: Thank you.
Sure Lurkalot
@Starfish:
Sympathies. My democratic governor just mouthed words of support for RFK Jr and apparently believes vaccines should be a matter of choice.
Also particularly curious about the “philosophical belief” exclusion where you live. “My philosophy is to not do anything anyone says so huh!”
Stupid of me to assume almost 100% eradication of a highly contagious illness like measles was not controversial. If Trump doesn’t succeed in destroying all that’s good in America, the disdain for expertise, science and learning probably will.
.
John S.
@Glory b:
We lost control of every branch of government. By how much or how little is completely irrelevant. A football team that loses by 1 point is no different than a football team that gets blown out by 20 points. They’re both losers, and only the gamblers care about the spread.
Race and gender were certainly huge factors, but that’s not the only reason we lost. Fixating on that as the one weird trick that needs to be solved will relegate us to the wilderness for a generation.
And for the record, I’m Jewish. I know plenty about structural racism, and white people often scare the shit out of me too.
Jackie
Just saw this:
I can’t even cry anymore.
Aziz, light!
@Ksmiami: Branding means two things now: diddly and squat. None of it will penetrate the lie-o-sphere. What will are unpleasant changes to people’s lives and well-being, much of which will come as an unwelcome surprise. Americans being a fickle, self-interested lot, this may swing the pendulum back. I draw some comfort from knowing that the new gang in town consists of a loose confederation of grifters, incompetents, conspiracy theorists, extremists, cynics, frauds, and other generally awful people. They aren’t going to get along very well and will probably fuck up their plans on a massive scale. And consider the boundless stupidity of the needy bozo in the oval, driven by defiance. I also know as a former fed that big government bureaucracies are oil tankers that can’t easily be turned from the course they are on. Their new captains may knock some bridges down, but bridges can be rebuilt. Finally, the money men don’t want to destroy the institutions that keep them rich.
Jeffro
@Geminid:
Yes, yes, and yes. And thank you.
Jeffro
this is great advice, period.
(well, at least until two full post-election weeks have passed, and then the thought of rejoining – or just initiating – a fight becomes overwhelming. =)
Bill Arnold
@TBone:
Those (hard-RW) folks often use Signal (app on smartphone, also a creaky desktop version).
It has a reputation amongst (most) security researchers as being the best of the easily available end-to-end encrypted messaging apps. The (encrypted) voice support worked fine the few times I’ve tried it.
Security is no better than the security of both (or all, if group chat) of the endpoints; compromise (hacking, or seizure, or …) one or more endpoints, and it is compromised. (It does have disappearing messages.)
(It is possible to put Signal on a pair of smartphone burner phones, too. Also possible to fork the code and create one’s own server.)
sab
@John S.: I pied John S. and his pie picture is a Christmas cookie decorated with JOY. I don’t know what to make of that. Chuckle or fume.
Obviously I peek at my pieds.
Bill Arnold
@Jackie:
The Department of Energy funds and controls the system of National Labs, which do considerable research on climate change/global heating, as well as considerable research into non-fossil-fuel sources of energy (and storage). Micro-management of the research agenda is a (stupid) possibility.
Quinerly
@John S.:
Very late to the thread. Just wanted to applaud you for all you are saying on these threads. Don’t agree 100% but that’s ok. That’s the way some reasoned and civil discussions go. TY.
Pie is the silliest thing to ever happen to BJ. The second silliest thing is the threat of pieing someone.
Quinerly
@Ramona:
TY for this comment. Late to the thread. Trying to not comment much on these threads but still read when I can.
I like to acknowledge comments that give me info and/or make me reflect/think. Much appreciated.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Quinerly:
I mean, I don’t see the pie filter thing as anything different than a “block” feature on other social media. Of course, it can be misused like any other tool
Quinerly
@different-church-lady: 😁
Quinerly
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):
I don’t block either. (Well, unless it’s folks posting AI crap or scam stuff.)
I guess I’m not a snowflake. I can scroll, walk away, or engage and maybe not agree with what I hear. Kinda like the way life works.
Just seems very silly.
Hope work is better for you. Hang in there. I try to read your comments when I see them. Appreciate what you add to the discussions. Have a nice Sunday.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Quinerly:
The block button is also important for thwarting harassment and legitimate trolls
It is, and thank you.
Allen Henderson
(Lurker. This might be my second comment in 15 years of daily reading)
How far can Dems go on rejecting premises? Here’s maybe a crazy example: say we’re already headed for a full-blown constitutional crisis, so Biden pulls a Trump and refuses to hand over the keys on some excuse like “convicted felons aren’t eligible to run because of this interpretation that I just made up.” Or maybe goes the full George Washington — set up a new board, then hold elections and go away. Like, what are the full set of options?
I keep thinking about Josh’s (TPM) old observation that DC is wired for Republican control. That’s just a basic recognition of who is willing to wield power. For the next 50 days, we – well, Dems – have it.
scav
@John S.: “only the gamblers care about the spread.”? Nice bit of hyperbole, but still. Paying attention to the 1 point v. 50 point loss does rather provide clues about whether it was the luck of the day or if the entire front end (or whatever) needs replacing. It’s not completely irrelevant, I mean, if one intends to do something about rather than ululate and kneel in sackcloth. Totally agree that there’s no one weird trick solution that will appear like a deus ex machina wielded by an avenging Biden or Rambo-inspired CIA operative.
Harry
Bipartisanship is a tool when you are out of power or have narrow majorities. There is nothing inherently good about it.