Floods reconfigure landscapes and rearrange vegetation. One happy consequence of our recent deluge was that it placed a log just off our lagoon that is ideal for turtle basking.
I’ve seen as many as four on the log at a time. It’s a challenge to get pics though because I have to put on wellies and wade out to the deck. Pete follows me (Badger is smart enough to stay on dry land), so then he has to be toweled down. Maybe I should get him some wellies.
Here’s a closer look at the freshwater sliders:
Open thread!
N
I’m glad the turtles didn’t get washed away.
Raoul Paste
Fits well with the “snapping right in line” post
Harrison Wesley
You live next to the McConnell retirement home?
FastEdD
Are they red ears or not?
I’ve had pet turtles my whole life, since my grandma urged me to take them home from the lake when I was a kid. There’s one I’ve had for 40 years, named Big Bitch. She’s been renamed Big Momma for polite company. Red ears tend to have obnoxious personalities. If they are painted turtles without the red patches they are sweet, kind creatures who like people. Better to call them sliders, because they are also called “cooters” which is not cool.
Bupalos
here’s how messed up I am right now: I spent a good 30 seconds working out what the political metaphor here was supposed to be.
Before I thought “wait, maybe there’s not one.” Doesn’t help that McConnell is the most credible turtle-American imaginable. And “log.” I’m like OH I KNOW WHO THE “LOG” IS!!!!
Betty Cracker
@FastEdD: They are yellow-bellied cooters! My town has an annual cooter festival to honor them. The event sells lots more t-shirts than attendees can account for; I suspect a fair amount of snickering is involved.
Love the story about Big Bitch/Mama!
Betty Cracker
@Bupalos: Go touch grass, friend. ;-)
Raven
We’ve crossed I-10 while Emmylou sings about Crossing River Jordan!
Ebony
Trump is going to get credit for Biden/Harris administration’s work.
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/biden-spurred-new-factories-and-infrastructure-projects-trump-will-be-in-office-for-the-ribbon-cutting
Just like he inherited Obama’s growing economy Trump is going to inherit Biden’s economy and claim credit for it.
KatKapCC
I love turtles. I don’t know if these buddies are males or females, but I dub them McGillicuddy and Templeton.
KatKapCC
@Ebony: Biden should drive past it in his Corvette and yell “You’re welcome, motherfuckers” through a bullhorn.
Baud
@Ebony: It is known. We’ve been saying this would happen for a year.
Raven
Outside of Danville, Il there was a tavern called “The Possum Trot” that had “Turtle Races” parimutual betting on turtles placed under a big tub. The year I broke my back I went in a full body cast. A drunk lady got pissed off because she thought I was making fun of the turtles. She was horrified when she learned I was really hurt!
Leto
Where we lived previously, right off the Schuylkill Trail was a large pond where we could watch turtles sunning themselves. It was always a treat to see them.
@Ebony: /SameAsItEverWas.meme
Betty Cracker
@Raven: OMG, that’s hilarious! (Not that you broke your back but that the drunk woman was indignant on behalf of the turtles!)
Raven
@Betty Cracker:
Betsy
I’m so glad you got to come home.
It’s weird that weeks after the hurricane the water still hasn’t fully drained away. I guess there’s a reason!
All good things and thoughts to you, Betty.
Betsy
@Bupalos: turtle-American. Lol
lowtechcyclist
I don’t know if this has been mentioned already today, but the Biden administration finally approved use of ATACMS missiles against military targets in Russia.
From the story, it appears that this has to do with the use of North Korean troops in Russia, but it’s unclear as to whether ATACMS use is limited to them, or whether they can be used against other military targets in Russia.
lowtechcyclist
I just finished reading Terry Pratchett’s Small Gods, in which the Great God Om of the Omnians finds himself unexpectedly trapped in the body of a tortoise.
And of course Discworld itself rests on the backs of four great elephants, who in turn stand on the shell of the great turtle A’Tuin as it swims through space. (In Discworld, it’s not turtles all the way down. :-)
prostratedragon
They’re so neat-looking!
Raven
Tulrtle Island is a book of poems and essays written by Gary Snyder and published by New Directions in 1974. The writings express Snyder’s vision for humans to live in harmony with the earth and all its creatures. The book was awarded the Pulitzer Prize for Poetry in 1975.[1] “Turtle Island” is a name for the continent of North Americaused by many Native American tribes.
TBone
@Raven: did you say turtle club?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=M3H2nnxQFLs
Denali5
Wonderful news that you are back home! While we will miss the chronicles of small town life, nothing brings peace of mind like pictures of basking turtles!
NotMax
When used to be immersed in WoW had a giant pet turtle named Shellvis.
;)
bbleh
“Turtle Basking” sounds like the name of an English village, just sayin’.
”Lord Wherewithal visited Turtle Basking today. There was a festive turnout.”
SiubhanDuinne
@Raven:
It is wrong to mock turtles :-)
NotMax
@Raven
So she presumed you were there to mock turtles.
;)
NotMax
@SiubhanDuinne
Jinx!
:)
Baud
@Raven:
At least you weren’t wearing a turtle neck. You might have been shot.
delphinium
@Betty Cracker: Glad you are back home now enjoying all the various swamp creatures!
@Bupalos:
Speaking of “Log“, a little humor from Ren & Stimpy.
SiubhanDuinne
@NotMax:
I’m amazed I got there first!
TBone
The Oneida creation story. Turtle Island
https://www.oneidaindiannation.com/the-haudenosaunee-creation-story/
brendancalling
Since it’s an open thread I just got on bluesky (https://bsky.app/profile/brendancalling.bsky.social) and I’m following the Balloon Juice jackals feed and was wondering how I post to that? I’m new there, so I’m confused, as usual.
TBone
On a very hot day, I decided to sit my butt down on a flat rock I’d positioned for that purpose in the cool, rushing water of Penns Creek (the part of that stream behind my cabin was only 3 feet deep and consisted of mostly rapids). I picked my way carefully over to what I thought was my flat rock.
It was, in fact, a huge snapping turtle trying to mate with an equally large female!
No matter, they didn’t notice I’d tried to sit on them 😆
Haven’t seen any turtles of that size before or after. They were Yuge!
mrmoshpotato
@TBone: You didn’t notice the legs and head on that “rock?” 😁
Quinerly
@lowtechcyclist:
The breaking news just crossed my feed as I was just doing research for sightseeing for my Tucson trip. It’s kinda weird. I was looking at tours for the Pima Air and Space Museum and Titan Missile Museum. And trying to figure out if “The Boneyard” is still open to the public when the headline popped up.
Jackie
Betty, are you expecting any impact from approaching Sara? I hate to think about more flooding as you and family just got resettled!
TBone
@mrmoshpotato: obscured by the rushing water (and the frozen concoction I made blenderfuls of – fresh lime daiquiris).
CHETAN R MURTHY
@Betty Cracker: I no longer read all the comments on political posts here. Often don’t read the posts either. But your posts, medium cool, the travel diaries, those I read. Thank you, BC!
mrmoshpotato
@TBone: Haha, I see.
bbleh
@TBone: “blenderfuls” huh? Plural. Hmm.
Well, all I can say is, sounds blenderful!! 😃
TBone
@bbleh: many good times were had by all there!
So many happy memories (and some very fuzzy ones).
We’d installed underground electricity (and an electrical outlet) to a 12′ long picnic table on the bank of the creek so we could run the blender and listen to CDs.
Large fire pit surrounded by Adirondack chairs, and a large charcoal grill/smoker.
It was The Love Shack!
Almost Retired
@Raven: You have family in the South Bay. I assume you’re familiar with the long tradition of Thursday evening turtle races at Brennan’s in Marina del Rey?
https://www.brennansla.com/
cain
@Ebony: Yep, but realize that the voters wants to credit Trump. It’s not like they don’t know who built it.
One big scam.
In 2 years, if we follow the same pattern, one of the parts of congress will go to the Dems and we’ll be doing all this shit again. Why? Because the trumpers got their guy, so they aren’t paying so much attention to congress, so they don’t come out to vote. The liberals are all scared so they show up even more and so a few house seats flip.
Then we’ll have a bunch of influencers telling us how it’s all different and all these amazing anecdotes of people coming together. Lame.
As I was saying before, break the pattern, let the system fail or change it so that we only decide to hold congress and do the McConnell way. That worked really well, frustrate the Trumpers in getting their agenda and then force voters to get pissed off because the economy sucks.
The economy is going to suck, but it will be in 3 years, that’s the pattern right?
bbleh
@TBone: this kind of thing is IMO the correct strategy at the present time.
And I LOVE Adirondack chairs. Like, why are there any other kind for outdoors?
(Make sure to put a cutoff switch on that cable. My dad did something like that many years ago, and at one point it caused a GREAT deal of electrical havoc, mostly cuz people had just forgot it existed.)
jonas
Maybe. People were living through the Biden economy for several years and claimed it was hell. That’s why we’re here. Apparently infrastructure investment and building new manufacturing and hi-tech capacity is worth shit. MAGAts will of course claim everything is suddenly all better on Jan 21st, but the opinions that matter are all those switch voters who believed Trump would magically make groceries and a night out at Applebees cheap again and I have a feeling they’re going to be mightily disappointed.
lowtechcyclist
Apparently there’s a movement by rural areas in blue states to try to obtain a divorce from the blue cities that dominate their states’ politics.
I’d be good with that as long as blue cities in red states can similarly declare their independence from their states. They get most of the land, we get most of the money.
trollhattan
@jonas:
Seems The Rich broke for Harris-Walz.
To which I can only say “huh?”
lowtechcyclist
@jonas:
They won’t get their flying cars either.
trollhattan
@lowtechcyclist: Not unlike the elebenty-five break California apart efforts. Let them dream, the little scamps.
Baud
@trollhattan:
College educated vs. non-college educated whites.
bbleh
@jonas: lol ya think? But alas, anyone dumb enough to be willing to believe Presidents control the price of groceries will be dumb enough to fall for whatever lame excuse the Orange Idiot comes up with. (And among them I include some of my very accomplished relatives with professional careers, one of whom informs me it’s because some of Those People can buy NAIL POLISH with their WELFARE. I just can’t even.)
TBone
@bbleh: sadly, when my dad died I thought I needed money to help take care of mom (dementia). I sold the cabin in 2018. 😣
We did have a kill switch – you had to turn power on/off in the old outhouse we used as a shed.
Well before I sold, a flood washed away enough of the yard to uncover the electrical line and we replaced it with something safer (overhead).
Hurricane Ida, I think (wrong). My johnboat floated us to safety.Sept., 2011:
The remnants of Tropical Storm Lee moved northward from the southern Appalachians on the 6th to the middle Atlantic states on the 7th before stalling on the 8th. The moisture from Lee interacted with a frontal system to the west across the eastern Ohio Valley and eastern Great Lakes. In addition, moisture was drawn into New York and Pennsylvania from Hurricane Katia which was moving northward off the east coast in tandem with the remnants of Lee. This complicated scenario led to an extreme amount of rain for central New York and northeast Pennsylvania, most of which fell over a 48 hour period from the 6th to the 8th.
lowtechcyclist
@trollhattan:
That’s the richest 1/3 of the population, which mostly isn’t what you’d classify as ‘rich.’ More ‘upper middle class’ on average.
That group would correlate strongly with having gone to college and otherwise being more educated. And for obvious reasons, these days more education correlates with being more Dem.
jonas
@trollhattan: That makes sense. The wealthier you are the more you were generally insulated from the economic turmoil of the post-pandemic period. And the wealthier/better-educated also knew where to place the blame: on supply chain disruptions, the Ukraine war, corporate profiteering, climate change, etc. Those who don’t have a high-altitude view of the global economy and/or are getting their news from various online disinformation networks, there was one clear culprit: the President and his administration.
NeenerNeener
@Raven:
I’ve been a member of the Turtle Club since the late 70s, and I have a card in my wallet to prove it.
trollhattan
@Baud: @lowtechcyclist:
Def not the 0.01% but still, it took THREE Trump elections to pull them across the line? WTAF?
Chief Oshkosh
@jonas:
Well, if Trump crashes the economy (AGAIN), then gas, and groceries, and Applebees and a bunch of other things will indeed be cheap again – because there will be no demand and so prices will plummet.
And the dumb motherfuckers will never figure it out.
Another Scott
@lowtechcyclist:
Good, good.
Notice what also happened today – France and the UK approved use of long-range missiles inside Russia, also too. I’m sure they were trying to get Germany on-board too (and Scholz decided that he was going to keep saying No).
Politics is slow.
And I think this illustrates why it took so long, and reinforces what Biden said from the run-up of the continued invasion in late-2021, early-2022 – the most important thing was to keep NATO unified and working together in the response to VVP’s threats and the invasion.
It’s not that Biden (or his team) was weak or feckless or didn’t understand the stakes or was ooolllldddd. It’s about NATO and keeping the alliance together, preserving the multi-national international order, and working together for a lasting solution.
(I’m surprised/not-surprised that people don’t remember W’s invasion of Iraq and all the problems created by him not having allies on-board with it. (E.g. couldn’t go in through Turkey or use Turkish bases; and on and on.) The US cannot just do whatever the POTUS wants with no consequences, and if it wants success then it must have sensible logistics and political support, contributions from allies, and all the rest.)
My $0.02. YMMV.
Thanks.
Best wishes,
Scott.
TBone
@NeenerNeener: 💚
dc
@brendancalling:
Please bridge your account for Mastodon so I and others can follow you on BlueSky. Instruction, it’s easy:To bridge your Bluesky account into the fediverse and interact with people there, follow @ap.brid.gy on Bluesky.
Expletive Deleted
@Bupalos: “The mailbox was Haldeman!”
dc
@dc:
why is my post striked out?
jonas
@Chief Oshkosh: It certainly would clairfy the question of whether voters would rather have no eggs because they have no job, or whether they’d settle for fewer eggs because the price has gone up.
The answer is that they’d vote for an insane dictator to fix both problems.
NotMax
@bbleh
Adirondack chair on steroids.
;)
karen marie
@Ebony: All you people buying replacement appliances while you can still afford them? Trump will take credit for the boom in sales post-election. “See? Confidence is back now that I’ve won!”
And that’s how the MSM will report it.
Ohio Mom
@lowtechcyclist: That’s the socio-economic cohort I describe as “the lawyer married to the medical specialist.” That’s a metaphor, though some of them actually are lawyer-doctor couples.
Yes, they financially comfortable, no they aren’t rich and they certainly aren’t wealthy.
There’s having money and then there is having so much money you can influence what laws get enacted and how the programs those laws create are administered. No lawyer-doctor family has that much money.
karen marie
@TBone: Snapping turtles are really fast. I wouldn’t be so calm about such a close call!
Nukular Biskits
Funny this.
I walked into the garage earlier today and there was a turtle which had taken that wrong turn in Albuquerque trying to climb up the wall.
I took him out to the edge of the woods and let him go.
opiejeanne
@lowtechcyclist: The turtle moves.
Another Scott
@karen marie: He’ll claim whatever he likes, whatever will make his fragile ego feel better at that particular moment. It’s what he does. We know that.
Hang in there.
Best wishes,
Scott.
Another Scott
@dc: Accidentally tapped the “strikeout” font button?
Best wishes,
Scott.
Chief Oshkosh
@Another Scott: Eh, I think it could equally be argued that one or both of the UK or France would’ve gone along with whatever the US indicated was needed and that, indeed, is what we’ve just seen. Regardless, the analogy of lack of partners for Desert Storm II doesn’t hold much water (for me). None of the NATO nations have troops on the ground in UKR and nobody other that Putin thinks that the cause of the UKR is unjust.
jonas
@Ohio Mom: “Wealthy” is whether you still work for your money or your money works for you.
Chief Oshkosh
@jonas: Nah, the answer is that an enormous part of the population cannot work out cause and effect. No wonder conmen gravitate to the GOP. We see them as people who need help. They seem them as lucrative targets.
Chris Johnson
@trollhattan: That’s very significant. Make mental note of that. They need to hear reality, you see… for business and financial reasons.
Sure Lurkalot
@lowtechcyclist:
Secession movements pop up in Colorado from time to time. Like red states, they take in far more than they contribute.
I say let one go ahead. Pay no state tax and get no state $ allocations. See what happens to their roads, schools, healthcare. When everything goes to shit, see them refuse to tax themselves to make up the difference. Then read stories about them bitching to some reporter on a diner tour how the evil city Democrats look down their nose at them and hate their salt of the earth community.
Quinerly
Leonard DaVinci on tonight and tomorrow. PBS. Ken Burns documentary.
Looks to be great. I’m a fangirl.
mrmoshpotato
@lowtechcyclist:
Downstate Illinois morons have wanted to kick Chicago out of the state for some time.
lowtechcyclist
@jonas:
So retired = wealthy? All I can say is, my standard of living hasn’t gone up any. (Not that I was expecting it to.)
jonas
Indeed. Most cons nowdays operate on some variation of the formula “this is a special [investment/medical treatment/job opportunity] those snooty ‘elites’ with their ‘degrees’ don’t want you to know about! Because they think you’re an idiot!” It always plays on a degree of resentment and some level of ignorance about how things work. As the world becomes more technologically and economically complicated, however, that resentment, and subsequent opportunities for grift (political or financial), will multiply dangerously (h/t Carl Sagan).
Geminid
@lowtechcyclist: There was a similar dynamic in the first decades of the 19th century. In coastal states, the westerners often resented the more established economic and political power of Eastern iinterests.This played out in Virginia’s and North Carolina’s Secession Conventions in 1860. The eastern delegates were hot to trot, while the western delegates delayed Secession as long as they could.
The reverse was true in the case of Tennessee, and a plenty of East Tennesseans fought for the Union after their state seceded.
Andrew Johnson was an east Tennessee cobbler before he got into politics, and he hated the slavers of Nashville and Memphis. Johnson only backed off on Reconstruction when he realized that the Republicans in Congress had no use for him, and he thought that if he realigned with the Democrats he might survive politically.
In the modern era, skeevy preacher scion Jerry Falwell Jr. and others pushed for a “Wexit” of western Virginia counties after Democrats won control of both General Assembly houses in 2019. They professed to be upset about gun safety measures that Democrats promised to paas and Governor Northam promised to sign.
Wexit was a flop, and it wasn’t hard to see why. Western Virginians often drive into the counties across the border, and they see smaller, beat-up roads as soon as they cross the West Virginia line. And many of the public schools are the best Lyndon Johnson’s Great Society programs could buy, and they look their age.
That Richmond money starts looking better from Hampshire and Pocahontas Counties, and the modest gun control laws that come with it seem more bearable.
tobie
I just read the Vengeance-Is-Mine Pres wants to investigate Anne Seltzer for election fraud. So much for free speech from the self-proclaimed free speech absolutists.
https://www.threads.net/@aaron.rupar/post/DCfRAXeRT_O
Layer8Problem
@lowtechcyclist: Free time, time not given to another in exchange for needed cash, has a value.
jonas
@lowtechcyclist: I’m thinking more of the person who lives a very comfortable life off of passive income, trust funds, etc. Living modestly off retirement savings is not the same thing, obviously.
Kayla Rudbek
That reminds me of a book on turtle rescue that I was reading at Barnes and Noble; apparently different breeds of turtles have different body scents and one of the blind rescuers could tell them apart by their scent. https://www.thriftbooks.com/w/of-time-and-turtles-mending-a-stalled-and-broken-world-shell-by-shattered-shell_sy-montgomery/ I should check and see if the library has a copy.
TBone
@Layer8Problem: for me, it has all the value.
TBone
@jonas: the ads for Gold! as an investment retirement plan drive me nuts.
Old man in ad:
“This is REAL money I can hold in my hand.”
Me: “How much REAL money did you pay for it? Can you eat it?”
😤
We are so fucked when the crypto bros get the upper hand.
lowtechcyclist
@Another Scott:
My understanding is that France and the UK have been ready for some time to approve the use of the long-range missiles they’ve given to Ukraine, but because the missiles (or the tech for them, can’t remember which) came from us, they needed our OK. So no diplomacy needed to get them on board.
AIUI, Germany can veto uses of the weapons they send to Ukraine, but the US, UK, and France are going ahead anyway. So AFAICT, the US was slow, not diplomacy.
I don’t think I was aware of it at the time, and believe me, I was paying pretty close attention. Too much other bullshit to keep track of in the run-up to that disaster of a war.
AWOL
@Quinerly: Haven’t watched that clown’s stuff since he gave the Confederacy a hand job on the taxpayer’s dime.
TBone
@tobie: thanks. I see this there also too (Marc Elias):
TBone
@Quinerly: 👍
TBone
@karen marie: At the time, I wasn’t calm at all. I leaped/sprang/threw my body into the air quickly and then started laughing at the utter ridiculousness of that situation!
Good thing they were getting busy! 😆 Preoccupied.
lowtechcyclist
@TBone:
“Why, gold is a great investment! Why, it’s gone up 68% in the past 5 years!”
Then you compare it to the S&P 500, which has gone up 88% in the same time period, and it doesn’t look quite as good.
Quinerly
@AWOL:
I skipped the Confederacy one. Loved most all of the rest of his work.
Wonder what a hand job on good old Leonardo is going to look like?
I read and watch lots of stuff. Form my own opinions. Thanks for yours on something I had no interest in and didn’t watch.
Jackie
@tobie: The only free speech allowed will be from TCFG himself.
Quinerly
@tobie:
Between pollsters and journalists this is going to get really ugly really fast.
Another Scott
@lowtechcyclist:
E.g. CFR from February 2005:
HTH.
Best wishes,
Scott.
lowtechcyclist
@TBone:
I hope it helps you hang on. ;-)
gene108
@cain:
For Bush, Jr. it took 6-7 years for a stagnant economy to crash. If Wall Street wasn’t so reckless, the housing bubble wouldn’t have been so big and the crash not as hard.
If it wasn’t for COVID and Trump’s response, he might have won the battleground states in 2020.
For reasons that escape me, a large part of the country likes and admires Trump.
Also, I agree with you on letting things burn. We fixed Republican messes in 2009 and 2021 and have delivered a strong resilient economy and most voters don’t give a shit. Let them get what they voted for.
TBone
@lowtechcyclist: it used to in the bad old days (not merely for merriment, for pain relief), but about ten years ago I quit drinking except for special occasions maybe once or twice a year.
I still love that song, reminds me of Parrothead episodes on Galveston Beach 🩷
TBone
@Quinerly: wait till he starts looking at voter registration to see who is who. 🤬
PA rethugs tried to go first:
https://www.newsweek.com/subpoenas-issued-info-every-pennsylvania-voter-part-2020-election-probe-1629468
Unsuccessfully…back then.
gene108
@jonas:
They will find or be told by right-wing media or foreign disinformation who the real culprits are.
Trump will be blameless.
lowtechcyclist
@Another Scott:
Two years after the invasion? I’ll admit I wasn’t paying nearly as close attention by then. Can’t see that it would have mattered that much. Once we went in, it was going to be a disaster, the rest was a matter of details. Like in Vietnam, the underlying problem was: we didn’t know the territory.
AWOL
@Quinerly: Ask Gian Giacomo Caprotti.
Cool if you enjoy him. I only have a jazz compilation CD he produced from his series. But to me, Burns has that Frank Capra stench.
I’m glad Burns has discovered other nations and city-states, in this case, exist. He was the poster boy for American Exceptionalism.
As for Leonardo, I’ve admired him greatly since watching an Italian documentary on him during one hot 1960s NYC summer when seasons used to exist. I’ve seen his works up-close in four nations. I still remember the translated euphemisms from that wonderful series, as this was pre-Stonewall.
brendancalling
@dc: no. I had to be dragged kicking and screaming onto BlueSky for the podcast. I’m not getting onto yet another.
dc
@brendancalling: It’s not putting you in another platform, it’s allowing Mastodon users (like me) to follow you from Mastodon. That’s all. Threads allows it by default. That’s how I follow Biden, and others. So you will not be on Mastodon, you will just be followable from there. That’s all.
tobie
@TBone: I never pictured Casey as a fighter but I have to say I’m impressed that he’s stuck to his guns about having every vote counted. Good on him. I like his fighting spirit.
jonas
@gene108: For the MAGA cultists of course they will work like maniacs to call the sky green, up down, $10/gal gas is actually cheaper, etc. Remember, it’s that swingy, low-info couple of percent of voters in middle that matters. They don’t listen to either disinfo or real info. They’re mostly utterly clueless about everything that’s not in front of their noses at the moment.
Another Scott
@lowtechcyclist: I assume the date is when it was last updated (probably when it was “archived”).
Yes, it was going to be a disaster, but (a) part of the reason why it was a disaster (but not the main reason) was the execution, and the execution was impacted by Turkey and others in the region not being on-board (for very good reasons). There was no unified alliance response (for very good reasons back then).
Best wishes,
Scott.
lowtechcyclist
@Another Scott:
I must confess I still don’t see it.
Our execution of the actual invasion went well enough that our troops vanquished Saddam’s army in three weeks. The problem was always going to be once we ‘won’ and the people of Iraq for some reason didn’t fall all over themselves in gratitude at being ‘rescued’ from Saddam.
The fact that we had no real plan for the postwar (a fact that came to light in a Congressional hearing a month before the invasion, and was a one-day story to the extent that it was a story at all in our wonderful media) was a far bigger problem for that phase than any lack of cooperation from Turkiye could have been – not that any plan we came up with would have deserved high hopes.
Geminid
@Another Scott: One important aspect of the effects of Bush’s invasion of Iraq and its effect on US-Turkish relations is that 2003 happened to be R.T. Erdogan’s first year as Turkiye’s Prime Minister. So Erdogan’s initial experience with Yankee foreign policy was watching the US blow up an important neighbor against Turkiye’s will and interests.
The instability left when we finally pulled out of Iraq dogs Turkiye to this day. It’s still a point of friction in Northeast Syria, where our two countries have worked at cross purposes since 2013. That fact thst neither country has killed the other’s soldiers there over the past 11 years is a credit to our two Armies’ deconfliction efforts. They have a long history of working together under Nato auspices, and I think that stood them in good stead while operating in Northeastern Syria, which is one of the most dangerous conflict zones in the Middle East. That whole situation can be debited to George W. Bush and his stupid Iraq war.
Americans often complain that Turkiye doesn’t do what the US wants, but Erdogan might retort, “When have those fu*king Yankees ever done what Turkiye wants and needs?”
TBone
@tobie: me too!