I was in the city and on the train while reading and responding to comments in the last post, but I’d like to remind people to source what they’re posting, lest we fall into disinformation traps.
First, the person who posted about some reddit thread saying that AOC had removed her pronouns from her socials clearly didn’t check her Instagram (her main social feed) before posting, because here’s what it looked like two minutes ago:
Second, I’m tired of people doing both sides with unnamed leftists on your social feeds. I see this a fair amount, especially from a couple of you. If someone from “the left” has posted something you don’t like, let us know who it is. Is it some random reply guy? Or is it someone who gets platformed by the New York Times, or some other prestige publication. You can always nutpick trolls, and that proves nothing of value. For example, the general point that the legacy media has been platforming Democratic consultants and insiders who have a major vested interest in moving the party to the right is not countermanded by “but look at what Rando Leftist McWhiteguy posted on the socials.” It also ignores the fact that the Dems who sabotaged some of Joe Biden’s agenda were not from the left wing of the party, they were centrists (Manchin, Sinema, Gottheimer (attempted), etc.). “The left” who are actual human beings, not reply guys or trolls, were solidly behind Biden in Congress.
As for what Bernie Sanders himself said after the election, more on that to come, but as far as him being a “traitor,” he held his tongue until after the election, after being a solid surrogate for Biden and then Harris.
Finally, on election results: they aren’t all in yet. As the results filter in, the popular vote margin between Harris and Trump is tightening. Citing the popular vote difference from election night doesn’t strengthen anyone’s argument, and it’s premature. We have days, at a minimum, and probably weeks until we get final results, but the trend is looking like Trump will not get a majority of the popular vote (though he will probably get more votes than Harris).
So, to summarize: check what you cite before you cite it, don’t use some amorphous blob as a stand in for actual human beings who we can check out, and all the election results aren’t in.
Gin & Tonic
Where’s the fun in that?
MobiusKlein
@Gin & Tonic:
The fun is where you find it.
narya
Thank you; nice summary.
Starfish (she/her)
Oh no. Pronouns.
sab
@narya: Yes from me also. Nice summary and very helpful.
Quaker in a Basement
Is Mr. Mix aware of all internet traditions
But seriously, yes please to all of that.
Nukular Biskits
@Gin & Tonic:
Didn’t the phrase “It would be irresponsible to not speculate!” originate here?
LAC
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/bernie-sanders-response-presidential-election/story?id=115582079
The ink was barely dry on the election before he started his usual rantings, but okay. 🙄
Baud
By the same token, no one should ever talk about what the “Democrats” or “liberals” or even “centrists” are doing. Name names. If it’s a universal rule, I can agree to and abide by that. Mutual respect.
@mistermix.bsky.social
@LAC: Yep, it’s fine to disagree with what Bernie said. I’m just saying he was a loyal surrogate, as were most of the other Congressional Democrats on the left, including AOC.
Baud
@Baud:
In theory, we should apply that rule to Republicans too, but fuck them.
Chris
Thank you.
“The left” continues to be the most conveniently vague and amorphous bogeyman in U.S. politics. It’s practically “woke” for sophisticated people.
narya
@Baud: also an excellent point—and it seems to be at the heart of some of your recent comments.
Nukular Biskits
@Baud:
Agreed.
One of the things that infuriates me to no end is for Republicans/conservatives to single out someone out on the fringes of “the left” (however it’s defined) as being representative of the everyone even slightly left of center.
And, at the risk of “bothsidsing” this, I have no doubts I’m guilty of doing this on occasion as well.
John S.
@@mistermix.bsky.social:
And for those who didn’t, like Rashida Tlaib, it’s important to call them out by name so they can’t hide from what they did in some nebulous group.
Chris Johnson
@@mistermix.bsky.social: This is fair. I’ve been saying that he got hijacked by trolls and Russians (which mainstream Dems were most definitely made aware of: divide and conquer, remember? That’s why they did it) and this is why you can’t demand he answer for every troll, nor can you expect that there won’t be trolls.
It’s the trolls that were demanding things like Force The Vote, or insisting Biden was Genocide Joe. Not Bernie himself. But those people would be quick to claim they’re speaking for him, or leverage anything he might say.
Mike S
The Cook Political Rport is updating the popular vote. As of right now, 3:03 pst, it is 49.96/48.24.
@mistermix.bsky.social
@John S.:
This is one of the races where I’m waiting for a final count. The claim is that her district swung far away from the 2020 Biden totals, that she far outperformed the ticket, etc. When I looked a couple of days ago, I couldn’t find a reliable source of presidential vote tallies by Congressional districts, but when I find it, I want to take a serious look at it.
Starfish (she/her)
@John S.: Rashida had the entire House trying to pass a bill that would give the executive branch of government the power to destroy non-profits because they hated Palestinians that much. They thought better of it when the executive branch of government was going to be turned over to Trump but not really a moment sooner.
KatKapCC
So, people were claiming AOC had removed her pronouns from her socials, and this was supposed to mean…what? She’s trans? She’s transphobic? She got red-pilled?
LAC
@@mistermix.bsky.social: if that is loyal, then jaysus. Not a “traitor” but was quick to wash his hands of it and revert back to his “man of the people” non problem solving scolding.
A woman from anywhere (formerly Mohagan)
@Nukular Biskits: that is originally a direct quote from a Peggy Noonan opinion column.
Baud
@KatKapCC:
I think the idea was that she was abandoning trans rights.
Chris
@Nukular Biskits:
The difference is that whatever horrible thing you see being done advocated by some random Republican is more than likely going to be official GOP policy within a decade (hey, remember when anti-vaccerism was a fringe view?) and the random leftist on Twitter is… incredibly not.
The right follows its lunatics’ leads, so you should definitely take note of what the fringes are saying.
trollhattan
One is amused.
hrprogressive
@KatKapCC:
The argument here – specious as it is – was that “Even AOC though the let’s culture war stuff was too much so even she – the woke liberal leftist commie – took her pronouns out of her socials. We’re right!!!!”
It’s total bullshit. It’s designed to be a red herring.
It’s also, as mistermix noted, factually false.
Nukular Biskits
@A woman from anywhere (formerly Mohagan):
Thanks for the correction. I know I’ve seen that in the rotation at the top of the page.
Now that you mention it, I think I do remember that Noonan mocking. That’s been a while back.
Chris Johnson
@Baud: Basically more divide and conquer and ‘let’s you and him fight’.
I am not in the least bit surprised that the troll divisions, far from resting, now have to kick into overdrive. What they have to achieve is now quite a bit more difficult. They gotta create smoke, and stall, while Trump in plain sight sets up to straight up ruin America and piss on the wreckage. That… could offend.
@mistermix.bsky.social
@LAC:
To me, the question with any coalition partner, which I think is a fair way to look at Bernie, at least, is where they are when the campaign is going on, and how they acted in Congress while they’re part of the coalition. He did fine on both counts: loyal campaign surrogate, mostly a solid, reliable vote in the Senate. Now, he’s off yelling about what he usually yells about. Some of what he said is right, some of it isn’t, but he’s saying it after the election.
There are a lot of people who comment on this blog who hate Bernie and hated how Joe Biden was treated. Bernie (and AOC) were not behind the push to oust Biden, as far as I can tell. Their loyalty to Biden was more complete than (perhaps former) fan favorite Nancy Pelosi, to pick one example, or Adam Schiff, to pick another.
Nukular Biskits
@Chris:
Part of the problem is that the political right in this country has an entire media ecosphere to amplify those distortions.
There is no equivalent on our side.
oldgold
I think campaigning needs to be reimagined. Just how, I am not sure, but careening from city to city in swing states holding events seems less than an effective use of time, energy and money. In fact, I am not sure campaigning as it is done now translates into much of anything.
Trump’s campaigning down the stretch seemed to be a shit-show. Harris’s appeared to be at least competent. But in the end, what did it matter?
sab
@@mistermix.bsky.social: or Sherrod Brown to pick a third.
Baud
@@mistermix.bsky.social:
I detest Bernie for his past actions, but he was good during the election season. I’m disappointed, but not surprised, he’s reverted to form in the face of the result.
KatKapCC
@LAC: The sad thing about Bernie stans is that none of them can ever be the biggest Bernie stan because that role is occupied by Bernie himself.
Baud
@oldgold:
Trump has a cult. No one else does. You can’t analogize to him.
KatKapCC
@Baud: Lordy.
Mo MacArbie
Bernie’s recent comments about the election pissed me off too, but yes, his vote was there when we needed it through these years of slim majorities. I can understand it when now, back in the minority, he will take advantage of his freedom to “write his own dissent.”
It still pisses me off, but I can understand it.
@mistermix.bsky.social
@oldgold:
The counter-argument to this is that the spread between Harris and Trump was smaller in the states where she campaigned. (Again, something worth double-checking when all the votes are counted.)
So, it appears from the information that we have that something about her campaign moved the needle. But the confounding variables include way more TV and other ad spend in those states, perhaps voters who were aware of their outsized role and therefore paid more attention than the average voter, and the other GOTV efforts (canvassing, etc.) that were focused on those states.
oldgold
@Baud: Ok, forget Trump, what was accomplished by Harris dashing from Pittsburgh to Lansing to Tempe to Charlotte holding random events for the last two months?
Chris
@Nukular Biskits:
True. That’s the other reason to be doubly suspicious of quotes that claim to illustrate “the left.”
oldgold
@@mistermix.bsky.social: “The counter-argument to this is that the spread between Harris and Trump was smaller in the states where she campaigned.”
Yes, I would argue that was not the result of her campaigning in these states, it is the reason she did – they were close.
Baud
@oldgold:
I’m not a campaign strategist. I assume these events were to help turn out low propensity voters.
Or maybe they wanted to avoid the misogynistic attacks Hillary got.
LAC
@@mistermix.bsky.social: yep, true…they kicked Biden in the face but Bernie kicked him in the rear. A kick is a kick. I didn’t see AOC doing that. I feel that the wrong lessons are being learned. That’s all.
@mistermix.bsky.social
@Mo MacArbie:
Here’s how I see it (similar to you but maybe slightly different emphasis): Bernie is one of the few (and probably the main) spokespersons for the party pushing a left-leaning agenda.
There are dozens (hundreds?) of people with big media platforms taking about “woke” and limiting trans rights, and wanting Rahm Emmanuel to be the next DNC chair, etc. These people have much bigger platforms that Bernie. And they have an agenda, just like Bernie’s. But they are packaged and presented to us is a far less challenging manner than Bernie just going off on the teevee.
sab
@oldgold: Whatever.
ETA Or she campaigned there because they were swing states. They could have gone worse because she went there if her message didn’t resonate, but they didn’t. They went better.
Hodge
‘“The left” who are actual human beings, not reply guys or trolls, were solidly behind Biden in Congress’
Do these people need to be named or is that acceptably understood?
H.E.Wolf
A very good motto.
I’m writing with PostcardsToVoters.org between now and Tuesday, to help re-elect a Supreme Court Judge in Mississippi (and defeat his MAGA opponent).
Nukular Biskits, I think this one’s for you!
Nukular Biskits
@H.E.Wolf:
Thanks for bringing that up!
By all means, YES!!!!!!!!!!!!
KatKapCC
@oldgold: It was to emphasize the cultural issues you wish she would have deemphasized but still won’t tell us in clear words what is included under that heading.
@mistermix.bsky.social
@oldgold:
I didn’t explain it well in my initial comment. The argument on the numbers is that generally the electorate moved 5 points in Trump’s direction. But in these states, something arrested that move and it was only a couple of points. She chose to campaign in them because they were close, of course.
Again, I want to see final numbers, but this observation has been made by a lot of people trying to understand the race and the role of campaigning. (Josh Marshall, Jon Lovett, Jon Favreau among others.)
RevRick
@Baud: I roll my eyes at all the instant analysis of Democrats and pundits, whether left, right or center that doesn’t factor in the reality of inflation. You look at our history and you see that voters punished the party in charge for bouts of inflation or times of depressions. Carter after the oil shock of 1979? The GOP after the oil shock of 1973? The Democrats after the post WW2 inflation in 1946? Herbert Hoover, who went from a landslide victory in 1928 to utter defeat in 1932? The Democrats following the twin shocks of the Spanish flu and post war inflation in 1920?
TBone
How about
Fuck Citizens United, money is not speech.
A girl can dream…
Nukular Biskits
Somewhat relevant to the topic:
MS Free Press: Opinion | Man to Man, You Need to Care About Your Neighbors
geg6
@@mistermix.bsky.social:
Several people at the Bulwark have also talked about this quite a bit, including Tim Miller and Sara Longwell. Say what you will about them but they are campaign pros and they are trying to wrap their minds around the same thing.
oldgold
@@mistermix.bsky.social: Thank you for your fuller explanation. And, to some degree, I agree with you, but my question still stands, is it the best use of time, energy and money?
I think for the most part these events are populated by the fully converted. In reimagining campaigning, the question should be how do we better reach and motivate those not in the choir to vote for us.
apocalipstick
@Nukular Biskits:
I think that is a paraphrase (or maybe a direct quote) of dolphin lady Peggy Noonan.
@mistermix.bsky.social
@geg6: Ah, yes, I might have heard Tim Miller on PSA, too. Thanks.
John S.
@Starfish (she/her):
She really seems to be more of a performance artist than an effective legislator. I would feel bad for her constituents, but they keep voting for her.
Miki
@Baud: Fuck Bernie, still. Even a stopped clock is right twice a day. The guy is mostly incapable of self-awareness, not that dissimilar from other old white guys.
eemom
@LAC:
Bernie and Pelosi both did that after the election (as well as Pelosi kicking him in the face before). And I’m afraid I’m missing the point of “yeah, but at least BERNIE waited UNTIL after the election.”
My question is, what was the point of Pelosi and Bernie shitting on Biden, AND Harris, after the election, as both of them did?? There was nothing to be gained politically. It was pure gratuitous back stabbing by both of them, and I personally hate them for it.
Because I think Biden and Harris have both got to be personally heartbroken and crushed right now after both doing their damnedest to save this country, and deserve a little decency. Especially from, you know, their own fucking side.
KatKapCC
@eemom:
I keep imagining how Harris must have felt that night, and it shatters my heart every time.
Baud
@eemom:
QFT.
Aussie Sheila
@Chris:
The ‘left’ in US discourse appears to mean anyone who disagrees with David Brooks. It’s honestly ineffable to me how utterly narrow the appeture through which political discourse takes place in the US.
It’s is often very socially liberal but it’s unfailingly libertarian inflected when it comes to anything else, including an unbelievable tolerance for social violence which to my mind is intolerable in a civilised society and reduces room for any debate and fundamental change.
LAC
@eemom: i miss the point as well. Bernie waiting barely 24 hours to spittle his way to a microphone is neither a profile in courage nor supportive. But like I said, all the wrong lessons are being learned and I feel that I gave it the ole college try here to express my opinion in the nicest way I could. I agree with you completely on the heartbreak.
CarolPW
@oldgold:
Rallies result in a lot of excited people willing to do GOTV door knocking, to get the unmotivated to vote.
John S.
@eemom:
I expected it from Bernie — he’s not even a Democrat. But I expected much better from Pelosi.
Starfish (she/her)
@John S.: I haven’t really paid much attention to her. That first year, there was a lot of yelling in committee meetings. But her bills seem like reasonable things to want.
oldgold
@CarolPW: Yes, that’s the theory.
Is there a better way to do it?
Mo MacArbie
@eemom:
Decency and personal heartbreak don’t really enter into it. Biden and Harris are the past now, and there is future to win, which means getting out in front of good taste or all the facts coming in in order to catapult his narrative. Or our narrative. Or every narrative. Sharp elbows are being thrown to determine the way forward.
Baud
@Mo MacArbie:
I’ll be watching which sharp elbows are thrown where in deciding who I’ll support and who I’ll oppose. Character matters.
PJ
@Baud: Now, more than ever.
BTW, does anyone know why California takes so long to count votes? I know it’s a big state, but it seems like something a Democratic Governor and legislature could do something about.
Bill Arnold
@oldgold:
I believe that there needs to be considerably more effort put into countering false GOP narratives, e.g. in the 2024 election, some false GOP narratives were under-countered, about crime, the health of the economy, and some smaller targeted ones like “banning fracking” in PA.
frosty
@Baud: I agree.
tam1MI
I just put his comments down to him trying to get ahead of the inevitable calls for Democrats to move to the right.
different-church-lady
Call me cynical, but I feel like we’re no longer allowed to participate in the establishment of what is factual.
John S.
@Starfish (she/her):
Sure, they seem reasonable. And if she actually cared about passing those things, she might have spent a little more time working for the Democratic candidate and a little less time shitting all over her and the administration that she was a part of.
Baud
@different-church-lady:
We’re just in the same boat as the people who led Europe out of the dark ages. We’re at a point where it’s more important that we be right than that we convince others that we’re right.
different-church-lady
@Baud: According to Wikipeida the Dark Ages lasted roughly 500 years. So… uh…
Baud
@different-church-lady:
Would have been longer if not for people like us.
different-church-lady
@Baud: You don’t want me to ever retire, do you.
Nukular Biskits
@different-church-lady:
And now we’ll have The Dark Ages, Part II.
eemom
@Mo MacArbie:
Exactly how did Pelosi and Bernie shitting on Biden and Harris days after the election do anything to accomplish any of those goals, please?
I’ll take “baby steps”. I’ll take any answer at all to that question.
geg6
@eemom:
My feelings exactly.
zhena gogolia
@eemom: Co-sign.
Lyrebird
@@mistermix.bsky.social: I really appreciate what you are saying above, and not just because I have been all “watch out for disinformation, let’s not spread it” for the past couple years I think.
I have a difference of view here:
Background: The main reason I switched from Bernie to HRC back in that primary was because he couldn’t listen to Black leaders. Talk at them, yes, but not listen. And the very things coming out of his mouth when he decided to lay out blame were things that erased MVP’s legislative record as well as some of Joey O’Biden’s major wins.
I know that I only know about a small piece of the whole scenario, but I think some of this “you’re being forgotten, the Dems don’t care about you” message has been really effective and not in a helpful way.
I also felt that VT-Sen’s remarks continue to leave out major forces in our country and in the Dem party, not in a helpful way.
Jackie
Who is currently the GQP Senate minority leader? McConnell or Thune? I thought Thune was? But, if not until Jan 3, Senate conformation hearings for TCFG nominees won’t start before Jan 21, correct?
Weftage
@Nukular Biskits: Thank you for that. I forwarded that to a family member who needs to see it.
Jackie
Here starts TCFG’s equivalent to RT.
Joy in FL
@H.E.Wolf: I’m writing postcards for that one also!
MobiusKlein
@PJ:
After 2000, when the scotus ruled that there was a right to vote, but maybe not a right to have your vote counted, we passed a proposition saying we had to count the votes.
I think that accounts for some of it. We also have big Chonkers of stuff to vote on. Not everything gets counted on the timeline we want.
Also mail in votes that are postmarked election day, and received within a week are counted.
Kathleen
@sab: Do you think that had anything to do with his loss? I have some “deep thoughts” but I could be totally off base. My congressman Greg Landsman also said Biden should step down but he won his reelection handily.
Kathleen
@eemom: I second that emotion.
Mo MacArbie
@eemom: Well, I don’t really have the wherewithal to measure what it accomplished. The aim is just to get out there that the party needs to move Bernieward. Those who believe will believe. I heard about his remarks first through an old friend who served it up on facebook with a piquant bottle of 2016-vintage coulda-woulda-shoulda. So that worked, I guess.
I haven’t heard what you mention about Pelosi though.