Folks on Bluesky seem upset by this unsurprising development.
If someone in the comments would be kind enough to explain the allure of Morning Bro, I’d be interested, because I could never understand it. First and foremost, it’s the way Joe treats Mika, who seems like an intelligent woman with obviously poor taste in men. He is the biggest mansplaining, interrupting, preening dick on the planet. How do you get past that? I never could, and every time I was subject to the show (mainly in hotel lobbies or in the gym), I’d get as far away as possible from the screen and the noise.
Second, and realize that I barely have ever watched the show, but from what I saw in the few times that I was subjected to it was the most garden variety beltway gossip. Very little new or interesting information was imparted. As far as I could tell, the panel was generally a chorus of yes-men has-beens.
Anyway, the skeet that Anne Laurie posted from Jen Rubin below, where Rubin says she’s swearing off “dumb media”, specifically all cable TV, made me wonder why an intelligent person like Rubin would pay attention to what’s happening on cable in the year 2024. Then I read this thread from Angry Black Lady, where she confesses that she would hold back criticizing MSNBC and CNN because she wanted to appear on them once in a while. That explains a lot (and to be crystal clear, I’m not dunking on ABL — her honesty on this topic is refreshing.)
Well, if one good thing has come out of the Trump election, it’s that a former Republican Congressman who’s a dick to his wife a couple of hours every morning on cable will probably lose even more ratings.
catclub
Dinna hold your breath. Didn’t lose ratings in 2016 when they were constantly on the Trump watch.
RaflW
I’ve never watched the Joe and his Wife show. The few clips I’ve seen of it make me feel icky, because there’s a frozen in 1968 feeling about the power dynamics in that relationship. Does she bring him a martini and his slippers in the evening?
I know that sounds like I’m demeaning Mika, and I guess I am. But Republicans (even vaguely apostate ones who’ve been a bit pearl-clutchy about Trump 1.0) still seem to long for cul-de-sac & country club, sexist 1960’s suburban lifestyles. Even a share of the women.
RaflW
To the larger point, nothing changes unless enough of We, The People demand that it change. Not the media, not the DNC, nothing. I still think the dreaded ‘swing voters’ and the ‘stay at home this time’ non-voters were, in destructive mays they may not have understood, were trying to say “We want change,” but those methods, boyo are they gonna create change. :(
Progressives job the next 2 (to 20?) years will be to talk endlessly about how things can be better our way. Reagan was a piece of shit. But he knew how to paint a vision of a future people wanted. Trump has been doom and glom for years, his appeal is clearly to a different more amygdala/base emotion. But we can and must use the coming chaos to say “The emergency exit is here, come with us. It can & will get better, here’s how…”
Elizabelle
Media Whores.
JML
@RaflW: Mika’s gotten a pass on her supposed Democratic credentials for a long time because her dad worked for Carter, but she’s always been a squishy go along to get along “moderate” who looks for the middle ground on all things so she can seem reasonable, rather than take strong clear positions on things. She’s hardly been One of Us, she’s always been part of the DC media tribe that looks out for #1. her husband Joe is a preening “I’m smarter than you” politician who subscribes to the “if everyone just did it my way things would be great” school of political thought and fetishizes Ronald Reagan.
And they’re still the semi-reasonable alternative on morning cable news. UGH.
Michael Bersin
Watched the show. The whiplash caused by their pirouette from pre-election “existential threat” to post-election “we welcome our new Fascist overlord” would not be survivable in the physical world.
Saw their hostage video style announcement this morning. Looked for Morse Code blinking, found none. Changed the channel, permanently.
E.
I read the headlines at cnn.com but resolutely will not click unless it’s a climate story. I now get all my real news at nerdy places like ProPublica, and here. It’s much better this way. That ABL link is good. She’s good.
cmorenc
I disagree with “biggest” because there are such a vast number of other even more egregious preening dicks in the public and media sphere – but do agree with the “mansplaining, interrupting, preening” part.
hrprogressive
Joe Scarborough was watchable.
20 years ago.
When MSNBC ran Olbermann, him, and yes, even Tucker Carlson in Prime Time.
Since then, Olbermann was railroaded out of cable news, Joe has turned into what you see before you, and Carlson is a full on Fascist Russian Asset.
But yes.
The public needs to demand change and vote with their wallets and efforts.
This includes, as was already mentioned, the DNC and national party.
I’m sorry, the “we can’t/don’t/won’t criticize our own team” mentality is bonkers at a time when the national party just got its ass handed to it.
A reboot, wholesale, is needed, if we’re to survive the coming Trumpocalypse.
Full stop.
@mistermix.bsky.social
@RaflW:
Yes — there’s a whole lot of chaos that’s going to happen and I would have thought that would be a media opportunity for some MSNBC programs to cover that without bending the knee to Trump. But apparently these two feckless clowns think the right move is to instead chase the ever smaller audience of people who want to hear the inside scoop from Trump’s golf club.
sentient ai from the future
the reversion-to-type thing, even when an actual no-shit fascist strongman is involved, is why i suspect things will get much much worse much more quickly than most of these fucking quisling chupamierdas expect.
John S.
@@mistermix.bsky.social:
Nailed it. Every time I have attempted to watch Moaning Joe, I walk away appalled at how he treats Mika. I don’t know how she puts up with him 24/7.
cmorenc
@hrprogressive:
Too many among the “public” are at the root of the problem – Fox News propaganda network, or even the likes of Rush Limbaugh were able to stay on the air because far too much of the public willingly bought their swill with their wallets and efforts. OTOH, on the RW side of things, that part of the “public” has driven out progressive-friendly coverage from media they are willing to follow. Maybe your complaint is that progressives haven’t been sufficiently successful in creating our own large-enough closed-loop media silo the way the RW has.
Tractarian
LOL. Not a dunk, but a reverse layup – and one.
Quinerly
I listen to a couple of hrs, 3-4 days a week. Don’t watch. His looks repulse me. And, I don’t like how she looks adoringly at him. It’s part of their shtick, I guess. I listen on the Tune In app on a Bose speaker so I don’thave to look at them. I have to admit that I find some of his “inside baseball” stories from the 1970’s and 1980’s interesting. That’s the period I was in college majoring in Political Science, interning on Capitol Hill, and going to law school. I also like his deep respect for both her mother (an artist) and for her father.
I like most of their guests. I do mostly tune out Mika and Joe. Although, Mika has been very vocal about her disdain for Trump. I guess I should have watched this AM for her expressions.
Coverage has definitely leaned 99% left for the last 7 years….that’s when I tuned in. During Trump. I like Eugene Robinson and others. I really like 90% of their guests. I have to get some of my main news from somewhere so have no problems with most of their guests.
You asked. I answered. Not looking for an argument or someone to pipe in and critique my news sources. I am a grown woman. I can pick and chose on my own.
Trump and Gaetz have made noises about going after Joe. Then there’s the poor dead staffer’s death from natural causes and how Trump and Musk have treated her husband. Right now, I just want to see how this all plays out.
EthylEster
Wow. You absolutely nailed description of Morning Joe. I always wondered what the attraction was. Thanks for the validation.
AND Jen Rubin is really something. Smart and principled.
PS I am enjoying your posts.
VeniceRiley
@RaflW: Oh, honey. As I suggested in 2015 to Joy Reid for a one line vote for Hillary, “COME With ME, IF YOU WANT TO LIVE.”
The right is in a bubble we cannot reach. It is futile. They can only be fought and resisted.
Also, I stopped watching Morning Joe years before I emigrated. I just could not stand how he interrupted her at every non-opportunity. It sickened me. How did she even see that as marriage material?
gene108
@hrprogressive:
Everybody has their own axe to grind after the election results. We’re all hurting.
We turn into a circular firing squad pretty damn quickly when criticisms start being leveled.
I’d rather let emotions cool off and get a more sober look at election data before criticizing.
John S.
@Quinerly:
Not everyone likes black coffee, either. But nobody has to begrudge me drinking it. 🙂
Realworldrj
I can already hear Mornin Joe scolding Dems for not signing on to every deranged Trump policy and he will cast Dems as obstructionists.
RaflW
@@mistermix.bsky.social: Unfortunately history is littered with the stories of people, and with them, whole nations that adopt a go-along-to-get-along strategy when authoritarianism rises.
The cold hard truth is, many Americans will fail us. Part of our work is indeed to boost people like Jen Rubin when they have these realizations, and people like ABL who’ve known it all along.
We have to hope (in the active sense of that word) that not too many Americans fail us. Seeing shit like what Polis did with RFK Jr. makes me deeply worried that politicians will have the stones.
suzanne
@RaflW:
Yeah, I agree with you here. Very strongly.
Obama was really good at this, too. Painting a picture of a positive vision for the future, and helping people feel included inside it. Lots of commenters here dismiss that as “speechifying”, but I think it’s actually the core role of the modern presidency. It is where all the political capital comes from.
montanareddog
@catclub:
But the dynamic has definitely changed this time. Democratic Party sympathizers are fed up with the cynical bait and switch of the legacy MSM and absolutely sick to the back teeth of Trump 24/7. The MSM could take a big hit out of this.
sentient ai from the future
@gene108:
postmortems on our own run are absolutely appropriate, after we have defeated the fascists.
time’s a-wastin
Old Man Shadow
Everyone flipped from “existential threat” to “oh well, nothing to do now. I guess we’ll try again in 2026 and 2028” pretty quickly, so I’m hardly surprised even a couple of mildly critical media personalities flipped too.
Quinerly
@John S.:
Agree. I was a black coffee addict for years at work. Drank it all day except when in court or with a client. Pretty much 6 AM to 6PM. Rarely touch it since I retired in 2019. If I do touch it, it is 1/4 cream now. Never had any withdrawal symptoms. When I quit, I quit.
Now I drink Trader Joe’s hot Irish Tea most of the day.😉
Have a nice day and week. Enjoy your comments. We are all on the same team I would like to think. We all don’t have to agree 100% on everything, including news sources. Take care.
Bugboy
Conservatives have never met a projection they didn’t like.
Quinerly
@Old Man Shadow:
And with “everyone” I assume you mean EVERYONE. Purple tie for bipartisanship and all.
RaflW
@cmorenc: No to be too essentialist about it, but I think the liberal or progressive mind & personality just don’t resonate with a left-wing version of what right wing media does. At least not radio/tv.
I do see that there’s a cadre of what I think of as left-ish Xitter (and now Bsky) influencers who develop large followings by posting endless rage-bait. I can’t stand it. I’m using the block frequently, on accts with 10s of thousands of followers.
They don’t offer anywhere for the rage to go. There’s no organizing principle behind it. Rush at least understood that his project — which aligned with his personal goals, I think — was to elect more Republicans, get harsher judges, etc.
The ragtag ragefarming ‘left’ on social media so far just feels impotent. I think back to Air America Radio, I do think Al Franken was genuine in wanting to make radio that countered the RW-osphere, but it was a ratings bomb.
eclare
@Elizabelle:
Yep. I used that word in a text to my friend.
Tony G
@RaflW: Yes. The “Mad Men” era is one of the aspects of the “Again” in the “Make America Great Again” slogan. (Other aspects refer to Germany in 1934.)
John S.
@Quinerly:
I wish I could have a nice cup of black tea, but I had to swear off the stuff in favor of green teas.
Enjoy your week as well!
Jackie
O/T semi- related…
I haven’t read the Faux link, but I wonder if it’s related to Joe and Mika’s visit. As far as how TCFG treats ALL media, only
timeminutes will tell.RaflW
@suzanne: I attended Harris’s first rally after Biden bowed out. It wasn’t Obama-level feels, and I actually wish she’d had a bit longer stump that spun out a few more bits of imagery of where we were going, but I thought ‘man the vibe is impeccable’* while I was there.
In some ways the short campaign was a gift, in others it maybe didn’t give her enough time to figure out how to run on the good Biden-Harris did, not neutralize crap like the Afghanistan withdrawal (a drag on Biden’s popularity that, while mostly forgotten, never really went away when one looks at how he was seen the rest of his term. I have endless, bottomless scorn for the MSM over how they saddled him with it).
Anyhoo, I guess I’m processing the loss but hopefully not inflaming the blame-making. Referring back upthread, I do recommend that Recombobulation Area post to y’all. IMO it isn’t blame-y at all, but curious about what went wrong, and found things that went well for legit balance.
* I don’t actually think in those mod terms. TBH I was just happy and joyful, as were we all there that day, far as I could sense.
Geminid
@sentient ai from the future: I may agree with you in principle but like it or not, there will be a debate about Democratic strategy and tactics that will persist for the next few years, like the similar debate in the years following Clinton’s loss in 2016.
I’m fine with that, so long as people are honest with each other.
kindness
Joe Scarboro is a dick. I’ll take him criticizing Trump though. Anyone with a soapbox the media is going to highlight telling Americans that Trump is a con and a crook is on the good side of this issue. Doesn’t mean they aren’t also a total dick about many other issues.
Tony G
@Jackie: There are probably still a handful of journalists who actually care about journalism, but they are very low on the org chart and they have no power. The corporate news media is run by corporations, and their only motive is profit. Interference by the government is not good for business, so they will make sure to obey the government at all times.
Belafon
The hook is that he plays “reasonable Republican”. In a world where so few of them criticize even a little bit of the crazy stuff their party pulls, I think we hope that there are more that would sound like them, or that maybe, just maybe, some other Republicans would listen to them.
oldgold
One of several aspects of the show that drive me crazy is Mika holding herself out as a feminist icon. Her whole “No Your Worth” project with their annual meetings in Abu Dhabi, a citadel of feminism and egalitarian principles, given her tawdry and subservient relationship with Joe, is just mind blowing.
hrprogressive
@gene108:
I understand your point, but my bigger frustration is that when I see people like Jeffries and Durbin and whoever pre-surrendering in the name of bipartisanship, and I say the Party has got to unshackle themselves from “leaders” who do not comport themselves in a way that demonstrates any leadership, and I get people telling me to fuck off because I dared criticize a Democrat.
The Democrats by and large Failed in this election. Yes, some of them won. Yes, it is absolutely worth looking at the data and trying to learn what objectively went wrong.
But continuing to hide behind the same old guard of leadership is bullshit, and I am tired of people who refuse to acknowledge the truth of where we are, and refuse to act in any meaningful ways, because they believe their own hype / their privilege will insulate them from the chaos.
People like AOC may not be perfect, but she seems to have an understanding of the modern moment that a lot of others don’t.
Most people here seem to want to villify Bernie Sanders, but when he says the working class feels abandoned by the Democratic Party, and swing voters say the same thing…failing to make the connection there because God Forbid Bernie Sanders Said It is…beyond infuriating, and I voted for Hillary and Joe nd Kamala, so yeah.
The Audacity of Krope
I love the new word I just learned.
rikyrah
Magdi Jacobs (@magi_jay) posted at 8:51 AM on Mon, Nov 18, 2024:
Yep. I lived in rural PA. There is no amount of “help” you can give some people that will convince them out of their desire to hurt others. Not talking about every last person who voted for T, but the hardcore rural MAGAs vote out of hate. They have “punishment” in their hearts.
(https://x.com/magi_jay/status/1858523533120295366?t=u4BsDjcHEVgVfOULDYTRYA&s=03)
RaflW
I pause to fanboi gush. Billy Bragg is on Bsky!!
@billybragg.bsky.social
Also, he clipped this from Roxanne Gay, and it’s making my morning (I was away from BJ most of yesterday, maybe it made the rounds then. Gift link offered below to read the whole thing):
Formica
Her transformation has really been something to behold. She’s gone from center-right beltway creature to… I’m not sure exactly, but “smart and principled” is an excellent descriptor.
I know a lot of folks aren’t all that interested in “forgiving” people like Jen Rubin, or Bill Kristol, Tom Nichols, etc. But their willingness to acknowledge they were wrong is a remarkable thing, a patriotic one. I still don’t align with many of their views – the older I get, the further left I’ve careened – but I appreciate their willingness to change.
Geminid
@rikyrah: I’m glad Magdi Jacobs got out of that small Pennsylvania town and put a new life together in Pittsburgh. Jacobs sounded happy in her new home, and I hope she still is.
CaseyL
Thank you for watching the MSM so we don’t have to.
The MSM will not only bend the knee, they’ll turn on one another in their haste to curry favor. I am looking forward to the entertainment value of seeing the likes of Maureen Dowd, Romesh Ponnunu, and Kathleen Parker start whispering campaigns against their colleagues.
Joe McCarthy ran a con entirely like Trump’s – no wonder, since Roy Cohn trained them both – and thousands, if not tens of thousands, of lives were lost or ruined before he went up against someone with the grit to punch back. That punch-back did not come from anyone in the news media of the time.
sentient ai from the future
@The Audacity of Krope:
its not like widely used among spanish speakers, but an improvisation on the much more common comemierdas.
everyone needs a hobby
RaflW
@rikyrah: Totally agree. What really changed with the rise of Rush, and then Trump, is that until then, the social consensus was to shunt off that relatively narrow percentage as sad freaks to be largely ignored (while, a la Southern Strategy, seeking their votes).
We are in a multi-decade fight to decide if the far right gets to wag the whole nation. We need to win. It may take a while.
rikyrah
Texas Tribune (@TexasTribune) posted at 8:52 AM on Mon, Nov 18, 2024:
How some Texas parents and historians say a new state curriculum glosses over slavery and racism https://t.co/3pSE0qEL3D
(https://x.com/TexasTribune/status/1858523573884731767?t=QXIRwOn5DxiqaJH4-2RCFA&s=03)
KatKapCC
It is endlessly and deeply aggravating that a group of people who are, collectively, so stunningly, abjectly, embarrassingly stupid are mentioned in the constitution as Very Special People Who Must Always Be Protected. 95% of our current media don’t deserve the protection of a blind sedated guard dog, let alone the fucking first amendment.
Geminid
@hrprogressive: Please correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t Sanders say the Democratic Party abandoned the working class, and not that the working class felt abandoned? There is a difference here.
rikyrah
Ron Filipkowski (@RonFilipkowski) posted at 8:09 AM on Mon, Nov 18, 2024:
Trump’s FCC Director nominee. The oil and gas industry, polluters, corporations and banks will be free from regulations; while the media, schools, universities, scientists, doctors, and Trump’s political enemies will receive special attention. As we warned many times. https://t.co/TvRKnynfJx
(https://x.com/RonFilipkowski/status/1858512979630678178?t=A6Ql3mIPfrDyB2m7v9zh6A&s=03)
rikyrah
Ron Filipkowski (@RonFilipkowski) posted at 7:04 AM on Mon, Nov 18, 2024:
Scarborough said Trump is Hitler and a serial rapist and Trump said Joe left Congress because he murdered a staffer, but let’s put all that behind us now and chill because the show must go on.
(https://x.com/RonFilipkowski/status/1858496501866983689?t=9VYzmpjU-TIqQ8ElzPFIhg&s=03)
rikyrah
NR_Garrett (@NR_Garrett) posted at 8:09 AM on Mon, Nov 18, 2024:
So after getting ~49% of National vote, offering a comprehensive working class agenda and saving multiple Senate seats from tough Biden map –
Mika, Joe, Politics Girl, Pod Save Bros, Squad rejects and left white male media is COMPLETELY OUT on protecting black people….. https://t.co/HglNBJnZ2L
(https://x.com/NR_Garrett/status/1858512858704679387?t=NI9xfeNC05WDZIMCSYODQA&s=03)
The Audacity of Krope
@sentient ai from the future: Love this one teaching me some linguistic versatility.
Quinerly
@John S.:
Well, I can’t stand Green Tea. It’s weak and kinda pissy. I think you are being a prick to me for even mentioning Green Tea. I am kicking your Green Tea over and leaving this blog. I just don’t feel welcomed because there are Green Tea drinkers here. People like you are why we lost. Fuck Green Tea.
😎😎😎😎😎😎😏😏😏😏😏😏😈😈😈😈😈😈
(I crack myself up)
oldgold
@KatKapCC: WHAT?!?
catclub
@montanareddog:
we live in hope.
tam1MI
SOMETHING WE AGREE ON!!! 😉😉😉
Seriously, that dude’s beady little eyes enrage me…
trollhattan
Do these shows matter? My sole reason to have teevee morning news on would be the weather/traffic stuff. Seldom. The cheery chatter one wades through to learn thing one about weather/traffic is enough to make me feel very stabby.
They’re all Maggie Haberman now.
The Audacity of Krope
No and I prefer my fantasy and fiction labeled as such.
rikyrah
This is referring to Bernie.
Longtime Black Man Here (@groove_sdc) posted at 9:51 AM on Sun, Nov 17, 2024:
What he’s saying is Democrats should abandon women and Black folks and no matter how they campaign whenever a woman or a Black person is at the front of the campaign it’s always “identity politics” and nothing else.
It’s a pretty racist and sexist frame. https://t.co/X2nSHATjpf
(https://x.com/groove_sdc/status/1858176239116165318?t=RVbPcbM6bwwE1NjA9fSecA&s=03)
KatKapCC
@oldgold: Care to explain this response?
Bruce K in ATH-GR
@rikyrah: The words of an angry Trumpist come to mind:
”He’s not hurting the people he’s supposed to be hurting.”
Ruckus
@suzanne:
To me this country (and quite possibly humanity) is very divided into 2 distinct sides, racist and non racist, and has been since inception. I have no idea how to fix it, because it is so infused into our history. We could all grow up, but I’m not holding my breath. People like Joe Biden try because he’s a good human but it’s not enough. Obama did a decent job but this is a looooong term job and will take a continuous process for some years, maybe decades. And I believe that this is not the first time I’ve typed this almost exact comment on here.
Does anyone have any idea how we can get humanity past this?
tam1MI
One of the advantages of RW media is that they had billionaire backers willing to plow massive amounts of money into them even as they were failing until they caught on. Left wing media has to be successful straight out of the box or else it dies.
Quinerly
@tam1MI:
He reminds me of the dueling banjo player in “Deliverance.”
Billy Redden
TBone
@sentient ai from the future: come sit by me.
Steve LaBonne
Josh Marshall reminds us that Biden enacted a big chunk of the progressive agenda- and it simply didn’t have the political effect progressives are always promising, to an extent that can’t be waved away by bullshitting about “messaging”. I’m glad he took a well-deserved swipe at Bernie’s thoroughly dishonest postmortem.
rikyrah
What the press & Democrats are doing to @VP right now is bonkers! She broke her back for Dems for 107 days. Trump called her name after name & Vance called her trash. Now media & fellow Democrats are lending a hand. I am done w/everyone. She is not your mule to kick around
(https://x.com/KMC4wauk/status/1858508104976961626?t=VTdvFtXsTahyM0ISntcTrg&s=03)
rikyrah
Sam (@bromell_sam) posted at 5:57 AM on Mon, Nov 18, 2024:
Joe and Mika are doing the same thing they did in 2015 & 2016. @JoeNBC & @morningmika are addicted to power and their closeness to power. This isn’t politics Joe. You and your wife have chosen to protect your own asses over the United States. Pathetic
(https://x.com/bromell_sam/status/1858479666408960346?t=CRqU2PTuQ4gesiMxsAJVJQ&s=03)
Chief Oshkosh
@gene108: By way of Digby, this is a great piece by Michael Berube:
https://newlinesmag.com/argument/a-reality-based-election-reckoning/
rikyrah
You could offer Republican voters mortgage cancellation, a new truck, $2 gasoline, college for their kids, and a free trip to Margaritaville, and they’d STILL reject it all if Black people got anything.
(https://x.com/MissesDread/status/1518346933676478464?t=qe8Tyr3Tq2zX7OmSwdWxnQ&s=03)
rikyrah
Jeremy Fassler (@J_fassler) posted at 0:18 PM on Sun, Nov 17, 2024:
I sometimes wonder if progressives like when Democrats lose more than Republicans do.
(https://x.com/J_fassler/status/1858213204754612463?t=MLqG1VVd7o0jlkumcCIW5g&s=03)
Ruckus
@hrprogressive:
It’s actually pretty simple.
Racists out number non racists.
Now if enough humans could get past this, MAYBE we could fix it. But as an old, I’ve seen this for over 3/4 of a century and it will take a very long time to reasonably fix. And I really do not expect any better than reasonably because hate lies in wait for its next moment to rear its ugly head.
rikyrah
Brian Stelter (@brianstelter) posted at 5:25 AM on Mon, Nov 18, 2024:
Joe and Mika went to Mar a Lago to talk with Trump over the weekend. First face-to-face meeting in seven years. “We didn’t see eye-to-eye on a lot of issues and we told him so,” @JoeNBC says. “What we did agree on – was to restart communications,” @morningmika says. https://t.co/lyWZWK4CwX
(https://x.com/brianstelter/status/1858471489906815033?t=rbbgmBo-4BYbVshWsG8wBw&s=03)
Steve LaBonne
@Chief Oshkosh: Thanks, that really is good.
Chief Oshkosh
@Old Man Shadow: I haven’t flipped from existential threat to “oh well.” For instance, I think that all of the breathless reporting about Trump’s transition planning is a take our eyes off the ball.
To wit, what is The Couch Fucker up to? He and Speaker Moses are the real threats.
ETA: That is to say, the person(s) and cabals that back them are the real threats.
Leto
@Ruckus:
Something people on BJ have remarked, is that it’ll take an equal amount of time to unfuck the problem as it did to create it. If we go by your timeline, and that maxim, then we’ll fix it at the heat death of the universe. This fear, racism, and xenophobia have been baked into our national character since day 1. It’s part of our founding documents. It is who we are.
And no, I don’t know how we get past it. Do we try to educate the people who refuse to learn? Just basic human values of love and tolerance. Do we break up the Union and go our separate ways? Racist interests align v non-racist? I don’t know. I know what infinitesimal part I’ll play, but anything outside of that scope is a black hole.
oldgold
@KatKapCC: Yes. If there was one thing I thought we could all agree on, it would be the sanctity “of freedom of speech, or of the press” as enshrined in the First Amendment.
John S.
@Quinerly:
That’s pretty much how my wife feels about green tea. You captured the essence of her angst pretty well there.
Can’t we all just agree we like hot beverages? No, that will piss off the iced tea and coffee folks. We all like beverages made from leaves? No, that alienates coffee drinkers.
I give up.
KatKapCC
@oldgold: I said nothing about freedom of speech. I was — I thought obviously — referring to the fact that “the press” are mentioned and thus many of them now have chips on their shoulders the size of El Capitan. And I certainly believe a free press is needed, but not when it is comprised of people as stupid as Joe and Mika who actually believe that Trump won’t be that bad this time, or all the MSM outlets who bent over backwards to sanewash Trump’s garbage every single time, or all the so-called liberals in the media who think the way to win elections now is to abandon trans people.
But of course, on that last point, I guess you would agree with them. You know, “deemphasizing cultural issues” and all that jazz.
I want a free press. But I want a free press that isn’t full of self-centered, idiotic, gullible airheads.
Belafon
@Geminid: I don’t dismiss the stuff Bernie says, but the longer he talks, the more you realize that he’s talking about the white working class.
Leto
@rikyrah: always this.
The Audacity of Krope
@oldgold: The press aren’t putting the First Amendment to good use, they’re due some oppression theater. The collective MSM is a particular face that I’ll be thrilled to watch the leopards eat.
Steve LaBonne
@rikyrah: About quite a few of them, I don’t wonder at all.
[email protected]
I’ve never understood the Morning Joe love either. I used to be able to not watch it because I had work that started early and ended late, now I don’t watch because I have a brain and I don’t want to do permanent damage to it. As for their relationship, two things. They have chemistry and she has daddy issues. Whatever works for them is fine, and their business, but frankly life is too short to think more about them than I have to.
suzanne
@Ruckus:
Well, I disagree with this a bit, and I think that informs my proposed remedies.
I think that there are certainly people who are absolutely racist, and who would admit it, and these people are lost to us forever. Sparrows, curtain rods, tiki torches, etc.
But I think there’s a bigger chunk of people who have lived their whole lives in a racist (and sexist, BTW) social order and cannot fathom anything different. They have expectations for their lives that are deeply informed by race and culture and status. I think that these people have very little concept of solidarity, because they have never known a life outside of their own. They only know how to relate to people on an individual level, through personal relationships. These people would never think of themselves as racist, but they have no conception of racism baked into social systems.
But I think most of these people are probably reachable. They generally want to be good. I think reading books — of any sort — is part of reaching them. I think building community and relationships is part of reaching them.
Miss Bianca
@Chief Oshkosh: that is a great piece, thanks for sharing.
Steve LaBonne
@[email protected]: I’ve never seen them, because I haven’t watched TV in years. I don’t think I’ve missed anything.
Melancholy Jaques
@Ruckus:
Agree completely. I hasten to add that it cannot be overlooked that both of That Asshole’s wins were against women.
All those sound-bite issues that people are now arguing cost us the election had almost nothing to do with how many people voted. For example, we know they don’t care about The Border Crisis!!! because if they did, they’d be pissed at Trump and Republicans for not passing that bill.
These things we call issues are just words they can use instead of saying that they are not going to vote for a woman for president.
Geminid
@Belafon: My Sanders take is the guy never outgrew the Marxist system of analysis he embraced as a young man.
[email protected]
@John S.: I don’t get the black coffee thing. I’ve tried and I’m a bit in awe that you can drink it that way. Beyond that, whatever floats your boat is all that matters.
CaseyL
@Ruckus:
About 40(?) years ago, Time or Newsweek (I can’t remember which one; they were both reputable back then) had a cover article about the coming “browning of America” as more and more mixed-race marriages resulted in more and more mixed-race children. That was supposed to solve the racism problem because a majority would be of mixed race.
I don’t remember the timeline, but I’m pretty sure they thought that would happen by now.
I don’t know how much a percentage of USians now identify as “mixed race” (the Census only began capturing that datum, what, in the 2010 Census?) but clearly it isn’t enough.
Harry
Many reporters are well-intentioned. Some are smart. Few are wise. The news media is not a force for good.
trollhattan
This should close the book on our ’24 fire season.
“Bomb cyclone” sounds more dramatic than big-ass storm.
@mistermix.bsky.social
@Chief Oshkosh: Agreed – it’s a good piece and worth a read.
Melancholy Jaques
@Chief Oshkosh:
It is a great piece. Should be read far & wide. The first sentence sums up 99% of post-election punditry:
My own personal chestnut is “because she’s a woman” but I could be wrong.
Josie
@Geminid: Yes, this, plus the fact that he wouldn’t recognize racism or sexism if it hit him over the head. Economic issues, indeed.
[email protected]
@Steve LaBonne: I’ve never seen a full show, only clips when one or the other says something of “importance “.
zhena gogolia
@rikyrah: This is what depresses me perhaps most of all.
Josie
@zhena gogolia:
It fits in with the treatment of Biden. The one who does all they can for the country becomes the scapegoat for people’s stupidity.
[email protected]
@John S.: Green teas have more caffeine than black teas, just as a lighter bean roast has more caffeine than a dark roast.
Quicksand
I’m glad Jennifer Rubin as seen the light, but geez, I’m old enough to remember when she reliably toed the Republican party line even through some extremely odious stuff.
She’s not a quick learner is what I’m saying here.
[email protected]
@Jackie: That comment he made about fairness to media has to be something Susie Wiles his campaign manager and his first chief of staff in the new administration told him to say.
brantl
@RaflW: He should’ve taken out a full page ad in the NYT & the WP, showing Stumpy’s surrender-monkey deal with the Taliban, screwing over the Afghani government.
oldgold
@KatKapCC: “I certainly believe a free press is needed, but not when it is comprised of people as stupid as Joe and Mika ..” (emphasis supplied)
Really? You want to put a qualifier on the right to a free press? That is about as bad an idea as I can think of.
[email protected]
@tam1MI: They are Amity Ville Horror original evil little pig eyes.
Gloria DryGarden
@rikyrah: I believe you. I just can’t fathom this mindset.
As long as “they” don’t het any.
KatKapCC
@oldgold: I can think of plenty worse ones.
Tell me: If the free press is filled with people who lie and deceive and mislead, who put the worst people on pedestals and shove the best people into the dirt, who think that they do not only report the news but get to be the ones shaping it, and who, whenever they receive even the slightest and gentlest pushback, react like angry toddlers told they can’t have ice cream for dinner…what purpose is that free press serving other than to severely damage our institutions, our politics, and countless people’s lives?
cain
One thing you all have that these Trump voters across the political spectrum don’t know is what’s coming economically. Please save up, make sure your finances are in order and be prepared. These people won’t have that preparation. Be the ant not the grasshopper.
Same thing with women’s health, whatever.
Forget this media stuff, honestly. It’s all noise. It’s all done for clicks. Who gives a shit if Morning Joe goes to Mar a Lago, we all know this is about access. This is about preserving their ratings.
Let me add one other bit as I did it on a dead thread yesterday.
Many of you, likely lurkers and commenters probably still have a subscription to the post or the nyt and despite years of perfidy still hold on to them because you like the cooking page, the cross word, wordle etc. You are still willing to keep those subscription because it still provides other benefits even though the editorial page is pushing mis-information.
If at this point, you still have it or still have a cable subscription – how can you ask Trump supporters and liberals to reject the media and misinformation when you’re still feeding the beast yourself? I find it interesting that we ourselves, the enlightened, so to speak will also continue along the path of what is comfortable. What is your limit that you would cancel? Many of you only canceled this year. Not 4 years ago, not 8 years ago, not 12 years ago.
Just something to think about. I’m guilty too, as I still read certain folks on twitter still. I don’t know if I’m feeding the beast as my timeline is mostly ignored except for the 1-2 twitter people I read. Otherwise, I’m on mastodon and even there the click bait people are there but less prominent because we don’t have an algorithm.
eta – 111 – nice, always love when I get binary numbers.
Steve LaBonne
@cain: My wife is talking about stocking up on mifepristone / misoprostol. I’m encouraging her to organize this through our church.
narya
@rikyrah: @zhena gogolia: Same here. She is so spectacular–even more than I originally thought (and she was on my short list of two in 2020 primaries). If anything, I think even more highly of her than I did before, after that amazing performance we all just saw.
p.a.
This is a major reason for the right’s attacks on the topic/teaching of systemic racism.
Melancholy Jaques
@Geminid:
My Sanders take is that he knows that the only way he gets attention is if he slams Democrats.
cain
@Steve LaBonne: Yes, start hoarding.
Start telling your young women, girls to no longer trust doctors, healthcare etc. All of that stuff is going to work against you.
If you have any kind of weirdness in your citizenship papers, file a FOIA on yourself. I have my entire green card history in a pdf. When the feds move against me I will have my documentation. If you are a naturalized citizen, have it handy. Because if the feds move against you, and you don’t have that paperwork, you and millions of others will be trying to gather evidence and you won’t have the time.
[email protected]
@Steve LaBonne:
. I don’t think I’ve missed anything.
I enjoy “Ghosts “ and Stephen Colbert. Colbert called Tulsi Gabbard Cruella de Village Idiot. I hadn’t watched his show since the election because. He made me feel a bit better with that comment.
KatKapCC
@Steve LaBonne: I would also recommend people stock up on home pregnancy tests, because I would not be the least bit surprised if they try to make it illegal to sell them on store shelves or OTC.
TracyB
The best moment on Morning Joe was from 2008 with Mika’s dad, Zbigniew Brzezinski:
https://youtu.be/0mk18af8z9Y?si=Oi4hxGlrocHaMjRw&t=58
suzanne
@p.a.:
Agreed.
I don’t think there’s One Weird Trick to break the hold that racism has had — and continues to have — on us. Most people want to have a self-conception that is positive. We can work with that. We can use that to our advantage.
Belafon
@Gloria DryGarden: A lot of the cycle goes like this:
Republicans: Blacks are lazy and and are receiving government help that only encourages that.
Poor whites: Yeah, cut their funding.
*Republicans cut everyone’s help*
Poor whites: Why did my benefits go down?
Republicans: Blacks are lazy and and are receiving government help that only encourages that.
…
[email protected]
@CaseyL: I think we have to wait for the old racist, sexist white people to die off, and hope their progeny roll their eyes when the old racists talk…
cain
@[email protected]:
The people marching around with Nazi gear are not old people.
We are creating new racists and misogynist all the time. Look at the voting numbers based on generations.
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/interactive-how-key-groups-of-americans-voted-in-2024-according-to-ap-votecast
You can see the misogyny as well as the racism. We have systems in place that perpetuates the cycle. Younger generations are not going to solve racism anymore than it is solved in any other country.
[email protected]
@cain: A very valid point. I don’t know what to do then, except shun them as much as I can, and hope those young men marching in Nzi gear never get a date.
Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony
@KatKapCC: I think your characterization of the reporting section of the MSM is straight up false. The data point to back that is that most MSM consumers (which are rare birds anymore) were informed enough that they voted for Harris.
Michael Bersin
@trollhattan:
They’re all Maggie Haberman now.
You win the Internets this week.
KatKapCC
@Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony: You don’t think any reporters in the MSM have done a bad job? You think the NYT and WaPo and all of them covered themselves in glory regarding Trump and Biden and Harris and so on?
Michael Bersin
@oldgold:
Really? You want to put a qualifier on the right to a free press? That is about as bad an idea as I can think of.
I see your point. The qualifier would pretty much wipe out the press we have.
Geminid
@Melancholy Jaques: Well, there’s that. When it comes to criticism of the Democratic Party, it’s definitely a sellers market out there. And like a lot of other politicians, Sanders likes to hear himself talk.
I got into a nice social media spat with a Sanders fan last week. I had asserted that Sanders knew little about the working class, that he had been a member of the chattering class almost all his adult life.
One of Sanders’ fans jumped in to tell me how Sanders stayed in touch with his Vermonters. He had met Sanders many times himself. So I looked it up, and found that Vermont has 100,000+ fewer people than my Congressionsl district. A small pond indeed.
Among the other things I found is that according to the 2020 Census, there are only 8,685 Black people in the entire state, along with 14,384 Hispanic people.
Now, I’m not saying Vermont’s demographics are Bernie Sanders’ fault. But I think they may have shaped his political philosophy, such as it is.
Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony
@KatKapCC: I think the REPORTERS did fine. I think the opinion writers did a crap job. I can tell the difference. I don’t think you can. I think you just want to burn it all down and move into a world where there is no objective reporting left. I think the MSM didn’t cost us the election. I think social media disinformation did, which the MSM did correctly call out.
Belafon
@Geminid: I worry that Sanders sees that the largest demographic is white, and thinks that if win the whites back and help them, that they’ll want to help others. Which is not what I see here in Texas.
Ruckus
@Leto:
It doesn’t have to be one.
I have for decades (maybe I’ve stated this before but I’m an OLD) watched this and had/have friends on both sides of this racist BS. I served in the USN within a mixed race environment, I worked/owned a company in a mixed race area and had several people from different races working for me.
It doesn’t have to be one.
But.
Given humanity it very likely will be, a lot longer than anyone alive today. Why is a good question, that has no reasonable answer whatsofuckingever.
Steve LaBonne
@Belafon: They don’t even want to help themselves. They want to hurt people who are different from them.
Melancholy Jaques
@Geminid:
Discussions with Sanders supporters can be frustrating because so many of them live in an alternate reality where if you simply explain the benefits of socialism, the masses will embrace it.
SNL on Vermont – funny ’cause it’s true.
Any discussion of white working class voters that does not include their deeply embedded racism and misogyny is a waste of time. Anyone who spends time with the actual working class – no college, hourly wage workers – will hear it over and over.
Melancholy Jaques
@Leto:
Don’t disparage the part you play, small though it may be.
Cloud Atlas quote:
My life amounts to no more than one drop in a limitless ocean. Yet what is any ocean, but a multitude of drops?
We are the good guys. Win or lose, we have to remember that what we stand for matters, even we haven’t yet convinced a majority of white people to join us.
RaflW
@Harry: Treated as a monolith, the news media is not currently a force for good.
There have been periods of time when news media have certainly done better at being on the side of the people rather than the oligarchs. And vice versa. At this moment, particularly given the ownership, the oligarchs and monopolist capitalists have the upper hand.
And even now, independent and unaligned journalism is happening. ProPublica and the Guardian together won’t save us, but they’re necessary models for correcting our current veer right in news-ing.
Betty
@rikyrah: He said as much to Elizabeth Warren when she decided to run. No ladies for President in the good, old USA.
John S.
@[email protected]:
It’s not the caffeine that gets me, it’s the actual composition of black teas. I can drink coffee and green tea all day long, but black tea makes my stomach do backflips.
rikyrah
[email protected] (@MSignorile) posted at 8:49 AM on Mon, Nov 18, 2024:
CNN, MSNBC ratings plummeted after elections
Much of audience came from liberals while right watches Fox. That audience blames media too for Trump win.
Morning Joe bowing to Trump, & the rest doing finger-pointing & both sides coverage, isn’t going to bring audience back.
(https://x.com/MSignorile/status/1858523040415350924?s=03)
BlueGuitarist
@Josie:
People keep blaming Joe for inflation, but annual inflation was higher in 1984 than 2024, and cumulative inflation over 4 years higher 1981-1984 than 2021-2024.
Iokiyar
Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony
@Harry: Really? Trump voters mostly all believe he won in 2020. Every time the MSM talked about Trump’s claims, they said they were false. Every. Single. Time. Was that a failure?
How about shooting down the conspiracy theories about vaccines that were spreading like wildfire on social media? They did that. Was that a failure?
How about pointing out all the false stories through social media coming out of NC during the hurricane damage? They forcefully pushed back on those falsehoods. Was that a failure?
You guys seriously want to get rid of thousands of reporters and replace them with YouTube, Podcasts, and Insta? You think that is going to be better? The people who already believe the most ridiculous things already live in that world. They don’t read or listen to the MSM. They’ll believe anything, especially if it comes from Trump or Putin.
cain
@[email protected]:
Don’t give up hope. Racism, misogyny and various other things are all products of human trauma. We make odd leaps of logic about other people but it’s best to work on yourselves, and then make sure that the people and relationships you form that you make sure that this kind of thing is not acceptable. I’ve seen many posts in other places where young people have pushed back on their parents – who didn’t start off racist either but became that way but economic conditions and misinformation can really do a number on you.
You can’t really solve this problem you can only contain it as so much of it is part of human nature. But we do have a brain and we can build up wisdom. We’ll get there but not at this time.
Belafon
@rikyrah: I also think that liberals abandoning media isn’t going to make them act better. We need to actually do more to critique what is happening on those stations rather than leaving.
cain
@Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony:
all great points.
The Audacity of Krope
Trump says X, [responsible individual] says Y. RI cites evidence for Y. Trump says anyone who disagrees with X is a loser with fake news. We will not address the credibility of the evidence cited and responsible individuals everywhere must answer Trump’s accusations.
That’s the template. It is baked in failure.
The Audacity of Krope
I’ve been bitching about the media for two decades and nothing changed. What this lacks is a mechanism of action. If we buy, we’re customers and we’re supporting the awful product they produce. What lever do we have to pull on other than denying them patronage?
Gloria DryGarden
@Belafon: that’s an interesting point. To stand up to the media sources that need to be questioned.
while also considering mental health wear and tear, and exposure as an adversary…
it might be useful to ask questions of 5hem, arrange non-confrontive curious Qs, that make an inquiry, leading them to answers, and critical thinking, Sort of like leading the horse to water, hoping they’ll drink.
other folks have suggested great questions.
Lynn Dee
Mika may be intelligent but she has long presented herself as every bit as preening as Joe. And she doesn’t seem to mind at all playing traffic cop on Morning Joe — waving this driver through with one white-gloved hand, bidding this one to stop with another, etc. etc.
trollhattan
@Belafon: Do they do anything beyond follow their advertisers? I’m unaware of any robust listener feedback mechanisms, maybe there’s a thing?
Broadcast news cratered one it lost “prestige loss-leader” status and had to become a profit center. Cable news was always that way, the business model included the profit goal. (Although, that can be bent by politically motivated billionaire owners.)
Geminid
I see that New Jersey Rep. Mikie Sherrill has announced her candidacy for Governor. This makes her the sixth candidate in the Democratic field. The others are: Newark Mayor Ras Baraka, Jersey City Mayor Steven Fulop, former Senate Leader Steve Sweeney, the head of the New Jersey Education Association, and blog favorite Rep. Josh Gottheimer.
Sherrill is a 52 years-old Naval Academy graduate. She was one of the 40 Democrats who flipped Republican seats in 2018.
That campaign featured a famous incident concerning Rep. Nancy Pelosi. Then the House Minority Leader, Pelosi had come to Sherrill’s district to campaign despite Sherrill’s pledge not to vote for Pelosi for Speaker. When Sherrill started to explain her position, Pelosi cut her off with, “Don’t worry about that. Just win, baby.”
So next year’s New Jersey and Virginia Governor races could feature two Democrats from the House Class of 2018. The other is Rep. Abigail Spanberger who is unopposed in Virginia’s Democratic primary. That talented Class just produced two U.S. Senators, Andy Kim and Elissa Slotkin. All four Democrats flipped Republican districts that year.
Stevo
@Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony
I agree. There needs to be a Fox not even of the “left” but of reality. Then an online firehose to follow, similar to the right.
[email protected]
@John S.: That’s interesting. My mother made tea for me whenever I had flu or some sort of illness as a child, especially upset stomach. I’m glad you have green tea to drink. If you ever came to visit I’d actually have it on hand. I tried it for whatever health reason, I can’t remember now, and I grew to tolerate it, but never really enjoy it, so I quit and drink it with my nieces if they come to visit, maybe once a year.
persistentillusion
@[email protected]: Unfortunately, that’s incorrect. Google is your friend.
cain
@The Audacity of Krope:
That isn’t really on journalism. You’re looking at what is happening on cable 24 hour news where you get one sane person and then an insane person or they sanify.
Your other problem is that while a journalist might write up a good article, the journalist doesn’t get to select the headline. The editor does the headline and they’ll put some bullshit on it.
Blows my mind. I believe that most journalists are Democrats or progressive at their core because reality has a liberal bias. But as I’ve said for 15 years on this blog, 24 hour news is the death of this country – infotainment is the death of this country.
Belafon
@trollhattan: MSNBC was more liberal than the other channels because of its viewership. Was it perfect? No. But you’re not going to get the evening shows anywhere else.
But I also think of newspapers and places like NPR. Lower subscriptions drive all of these towards requesting funding from corporations, which definitely moves them right, at a minimum they’re afraid to question their money sources.
We don’t have rich benefactors buying newspapers and television, so we have to be it. And, given enough numbers, enough complaints would focus what they will report on.
AM in NC
Probably dead thread here, but I just wanted to report I just went to Costco, and in the parking lot, a bit throughout the store, at the checkout line, and on the way to the car I did my little chant:
Donald Trump is a serial rapist (clap, clap, clap clap clap)
A PROUDLY BRAGGING serial rapist (clap, clap, clap clap clap)
Good People don’t vote for serial rapists (clap, clap, clap clap clap)
Your daughters see just who you are
Decent people everywhere
Show MAGAs that we see them yeah, ’cause
Good People don’t vote for serial rapists (clap, clap, clap clap clap)
And Donald Trump is a serial rapist (clap, clap, clap clap clap)
Who BRAGS about being a serial rapist (clap, clap, clap clap clap)
Your daughters know just what you are!
Got positive reactions from a few people (including a smile from a Muslim couple – and a BIG smile when I said, “I know they’re coming after you too, and I’ve got your backs”), a lot of uncomfortable looks from what I assume to be MAGA voters, and the only outright negative responses came from white women of a certain age (maybe because I’m one and am calling them out on their utter garbage human being-ness).
I know I am awfully privileged to be able to do things like this and not fear being literally beaten up/shot, but I’m only doing it in public places where I think I’d be safe.
Baud
@AM in NC:
Wow.
cain
The other thing I’m observing is that a lot of these people who vote maga are completely under the control of social media algorithms. Like they rather get their information from newsletters and what not instead of asking their kid who is an expert in that particular field – they rather “do their own research”.
I think _this_ is the primary problem. You can’t do anything without going down the well about something right wing. This is why I don’t watch anything but cooking shows and bollywood music videos on youtube and the occasional “how do I install this..” instructional videos. Anything else and you’re asking for trouble.
Ruckus
@suzanne:
I agree that it is changeable for some, and has changed for many.
But, there is racism and then there is RACISM. Small character racism is changeable, big character RACISM I don’t think is. For some people I believe that they see any race but their own as beneath them. They’ve never worked or lived outside their racist comfort zone and never want to have to do that. Is it changing? Yes. Changing fast? Not so much. Is it completely changeable? I think it will take at least a couple lifetimes. I hope I’m wrong. I hope that enough younger humans get there to the changed side because I think that is highly necessary, especially if we are going to have the nation that was conceptualized around supposed equality.
Baud
@cain:
I watch a bunch of educational videos on YouTube. No right wing algorithms for me.
AM in NC
@Baud: Yeah. I don’t care if people think I’m a crazy lady. They need to know that WE know exactly who and what they are, and we aren’t going to let them forget it.
And our side needs to see that people aren’t going to go quietly in this fight.
RaflW
@Melancholy Jaques: I’d phrase your last item as “because sexism is still rampant here” as a major component, yes.
ArchTeryx
@trollhattan: I think the “bomb” part of it relates to just how fast these things can intensify. I’ve seen it on a small scale with tornadoes. If a tornado undergoes a miniature form of bombogenesis, it can go from about 100 yards to a mile and a half wide in under sixty seconds flat. On a large scale, you get a bomb cyclone.
Think of it as an engine that just got a huge boost of nitro into its intake. When a storm “bombs out,” it goes from a relatively low-key storm into a GIANT MONSTER STORM in 24 hours. Or less.
cain
@Stevo:
It’s been tried before but it’s much harder to get attention because liberals are generally kind of boring and they are always concerned about stuff that looks boring and wonky. :D
Soprano2
@BlueGuitarist: I think the issue here is that things are relative. High interest rates and inflation were a problem for most of the ’70’s and early ’80’s. People didn’t like it, but they were used to it. When it finally started to come down in 1983-1984 people were happy because it was getting better. In these times, though, people were used to 1-2% inflation and interest rates between 3-5% for most things. Shoot, I had a friend who bought a new Honda with a 0.9% interest rate! Sudden inflation like we had along with suddenly increasing interest rates was a shock to people’s system, especially in the midst of a worldwide pandemic. I keep saying that many of these people wouldn’t know what to do if a truly terrible economy hit, but they don’t have any way to understand this that’s real to them (even what happened in 2008/2009 wasn’t as bad as the late ’70’s/early ’80’s). They think a Fed funds rate of 2-3% and inflation at 2% constantly is normal, and the way things have always been.
[email protected]
@persistentillusion: I don’t need Google just a new brain. I got that ass backwards. I meant to say that green tea had less caffeine than black tea which is the opposite of a dark roast coffee which has less caffeine than a lighter roast coffee. I was dealing with my mother and dogs and was distracted and I’m tired. The sad thing is I proofread that comment as well. Just a stupid brain fart. Thanks for pointing out my error.
Miss Bianca
@cain: So far, between music videos and yoga instructionals – and sticking rigorously to those categories, with the occasional old movie thrown in – I have somehow managed to avoid the great YouTube mind-suck down the right-wing rabbitholes.
I don’t doubt they’re out there, I’ve just managed to avoid them.
cain
@AM in NC:
👏👏👏👏
cain
@Miss Bianca:
I’m fairly restricted on where I go on the Internet. It’s usually the same places for decades.
cain
@Baud: I’m hearing this from a bunch of other folks in other sites / reddit. I only have a few things I do on youtube. I just read books and netflix for entertainment.
Chief Oshkosh
@Josie: Almost Christ-like…
Baud
@cain:
I’m sure the right winger algorithms select for particular traits to exploit.
StringOnAStick
@Chief Oshkosh: That was worth reading; I’ve sent it on to several others.
Ruckus
@[email protected]:
Too many are raised in a racist fashion. A way that says that racism is normal and good. They see their parents are racist, and successful, so that puts a positive spin on racism for them. And there is a large area of this country where racism is more baked in than other areas. Not that the baking never happened in other areas but exposure and more open concepts have shown it to be pure bullshit, and acceptance is at a much higher level. Is it perfect? Of course not, it’s humanity, in all its good and in all its crap.
Kayla Rudbek
@Ruckus: when I was younger I thought alien invasion might unite humanity, now I think that half of humanity would sellout the other half to the alien invasion
Belafon
@Kayla Rudbek: Half of humanity would spend its time blaming the other half for allowing the aliens to invade.
apocalipstick
@John S.:
In fairness to Scarborough, he’s a bobcat in the sack.
Baud
@Kayla Rudbek:
I for one welcome our new insect overlords.
RaflW
@The Audacity of Krope: Yep. NYT and WaPo have received a ton of constructive criticism over the years, and is sure has looked like their response has been “we know what we’re doing, you don’t, you’ll take what we’re serving.”
The breaking point for me in that arrogance was a few weeks ago vis the Post. If I can get a gift link, I’ll still read things that people want to share. I’m not in some “I refuse to look” mode. But I ain’t paying.
Miss Bianca
@Kayla Rudbek: Sounds like a fascinating premise for a horror sci-fi movie…and, alas, I am inclined to agree with you.
Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony
@The Audacity of Krope: Hey, WaPo, NPR, PBS, and ABC coverage of Trump’s lies about the election always state, unequivocally that there is NO EVIDENCE supporting his claims of widespread voter fraud. They say it every time. If you don’t know that, then you haven’t actually been consuming MSM, just selected articles or clips passed around social media.
geg6
@rikyrah:
Exactly. And why I despise him so much. That’s always his underlying M.O. He’s a racist, sexist pig and always has been based on everything I’ve ever read about his life.
Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony
@cain:
YES! This is the problem! Its social media! Its not some MSM both-sidery opinion piece none of those people read.
The Audacity of Krope
@Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony: Those organizations either lost me a long time ago or never had me. I extended trust in the beginning. They squandered it.
I’m not going to read everything they write in the vain hope that their work improves. At this point, I’m only reading what other people link to. So if they want to earn my trust back, they can’t just say the “right” things sometimes. They need to be consistent.
And simply having your facts right is the bare minimum before you get to issues like story selection, framing, placement, significance…
A broken trust is not easy to mend and all this pushing is doing is leading me to question your judgment.
Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony
@The Audacity of Krope: So basically you spend almost all of your time on this site bashing media you don’t consume unless its a carefully selected subset that already appeals to your biases. Got it. Thank you for confirming what I already assumed was true.
Ruckus
@The Audacity of Krope:
What lever do we have to pull on other than denying them patronage?
Letting them know that’s why you are denying them patronage.
sab
@RaflW: I believe he also used his clout to get her a huge pay raise. And then she wrote a book about the importance of women asserting themselves, with herself as an example.
Belafon
What I don’t know how to counter other than using our numbers is when the oligarchs use their money. It just feels like abandoning sources at this point is a lot like deciding to vote for Stein.
The Audacity of Krope
@Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony: Media that caters to my biases doesn’t exist, full stop.
I want honest, discerning, informative media. I check in enough to see how they’re behaving and glean whatever actual facts I can to follow up on.
Simply put, the factual content of reporting is minimal, but I use it to point me toward stronger verifiable sources. The both sides discussion of a law is useless. The summation and text of a law is about as definitive as it can be. I won’t consume reporting about Congressional hearings, but I’ll pay enough attention to know if a hearing I want to watch will happen and watch the actual hearing.
Point is, the media is adding nothing of value. They’re taking pull quotes from two sides of whatever, like two valid sides always exist, reporting the controversy on the front page and burying the facts wherever they’re least likely to be noticed. It doesn’t matter if they say Trump is lying on the second to last paragraph.
If I have to go out of my way to double-check and disambiguate everything a media organization puts forward, they aren’t doing their job. They’re aggregating content and leaving me to sift through it. I’m not paying for it. I’m not rewarding it with clicks or plaudits or recommendations.
ETA: Extra points for your super lazy assertion that people criticizing the media are simply mad it doesn’t “agree” with them. If someone is telling me a story and shit don’t add up, it ain’t my fault for pointing it out.
I’m reminded of haughty, closed-minded, stuck-up centrists of the type typically employed by newspapers.
brantl
@hrprogressive: Bernie didn’t say “It feels like the Democratic party abandoned people” he said they did abandon working people, and very lttle could be further from the truth.
Ramona
@KatKapCC: My understanding of the Freedom of the Press granted by the Constitution is that it is freedom of the literal press, the printing press! It does not single out the news media as more priveleged to publish its account than any other citizen. I am not well-versed in history but my impression is that there was no entity equivalent to our contemporary mass news media in the world in the 18th century let alone in the thirteen colonies.
This means each one of us enjoys the freedom afforded to “official” members of the Press which I naively understand to mean that each one of us (including whichever group we form) has the right to inquire into the workings of our elected representatives in addition to the right to disseminate far and wide our comments and criticism of their actions and it is incumbent on the Government to demonstrate a substantial countervailing public interest in order to impose restrictions on the means by which we disseminate our opinions.
Laws protecting the prerogative of journalists to not reveal their sources are pragmatic additions with the aim of preserving that aspect of the freedom of the press having to do with conducting inquiries on matters impacting the public. My impression (and please, somebody edify me) is that this privelege to protect the identity of sources does not extend to individual citizens even though we too enjoy the right to operate our own “press”. I don’t know whether allowing an individual to not disclose the identity of a source in a court of law would necessarily be a good thing.
My understanding is that laws have evolved so that the government has leeway in regulating commercial speech. (Again, caveat, I am still learning). If an entity’s primary mission is to generate a profit, then what delineates that part of their speech that is commercial and hence less protected than any purported non commercial aspects of their output? This is not a rhetorical question although I’ll defer to anybody who tells me this is a trite question.
In the nineties, the Nation published an article (or a series of articles) titled “The Lords of the (… IIRC Global Village?) warning of the then rapidly accelerating consolidation of the news media. The laws preventing press consolidation had been weakened and the situation is even worse today now exacerbated by technological innovations.
With respect to ensuring the kind of press that serves the essential democratic function of monitoring the effects of the laws we experiment with to foster the well-being of We the People and the quality of our elected representatives, I believe that part of our role is analogous to a fitness determining pressure in natural selection. We should starve those press entities which do not serve the aforementioned democratic function of attention and resources (our money) and reward those press entities, however nascent and miniscule in comparison to established species of news media. It might seem in the moment that this selection pressure we are capable of exerting now is picayune but things can snowball fast and already reporting from humble outfits like ProPublica are having huge effects, e.g. Thomas’ corruption as one of the factors in the loss of reputation of SCOTUS.
Gloria DryGarden
@Miss Bianca: YouTube still true on occasion to slip me some right wing bits. Mostly it shows me skating, gymnastics, dolphins whales, geography, archeology, tiny bits of history, and actors/movies. And Colbert..
Melancholy Jaques
@RaflW:
I accept your edit. I believe that factor was decisive in both 2016 and 2024.
Glidwrith
@[email protected]: Sorry, but green tea is less caffeine than black tea,unless you are referring to matcha?
Soprano2
You could remake “Network” today without many changes at all.
Glidwrith
@cain: What is really fun, is when the parent DOES ask the kid for expertise and then promptly brushes it aside to favor their bigotry.
Ask me how I know….
Ramona
@Belafon: I am hardly original in pointing out that monetization of more and more aspects of human life has been the double-edged sword since the advent of industrial capitalism bringing us more and more material comfort and less access to the elusive psychological sources of human satisfaction.
We need to break the link between survival and money (of course, that is what we on the left perceive as the primary role of government), relentlessly attack the idea that one’s financial success is a measure of human worth, establish organizations like mutual aid societies, undermine the now unspoken propaganda that a progressive income tax is a burden on the individual so that we can again bring about a day when we tax billionaires out of existence, develop entertaining gaming apps which foster numeracy…
It is time for a bold Progressive Contract with America. Such a declaration would require a degree of more complexity than Newt Gingrich’s in the nineties but now we have the technology, hyperlinking on each principle to expand reasoning, evidence, charts, narratives.
Part of our opposition to Trump’s presidency could be the collective project of composing such a Contract.
I have been remiss in not watching the Indivisible zoom call. I should.
Democracy is an ongoing project and progress seems to have been mostly a sequence of 5 steps back, 10 steps back and then suddenly a 100 steps forward and only after that, a complete change in how the populace views things, followed by a sneaky relentless attack by the few who have appropriated almost all of the results of our labor and natural resources to corrupt the minds of the populace with new versions of the toxic, facetious false certainties that seem to roll back progress. I say, seem to, because meanwhile patient, determined, quiet people continue to make small but meaningful steps towards progress.
Ramona
@The Audacity of Krope: Well put!
The Audacity of Krope
@Ramona: Appreciated ☺️
KatKapCC
@Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony: Think about all the “here’s why this is bad for Biden” headlines and articles, and all the articles where they gave the prettiest gloss to Trump’s atrocities. That’s not opinion writing. Those are reporters, correspondents, etc.
The Audacity of Krope
Only just saw this. Objective reporting is the mythical beast causing so many of our media problems and it needs to die.
There is no view from nowhere and the particular goal of trying to remove bias has resulted in a bias in favor of the people who complain about bias the most loudly.
Ramona
@The Audacity of Krope:
Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony, you are correct in that exit polls show that readers of MSM overwhelmingly voted for Harris, but that does not make up for the fact that in baselessly criticizing Biden for the Afghanistan withdrawal, publishing a huge volume of articles on inflation and rising gas prices and then very few buried articles when inflation abated and gas prices went down, not linking Biden’s policies to the drop in unemployment, straight up publishing the right-wing propagated false narrative of the Hunter Biden trial as fact rather than amplifying their very own investigative report on the origin of the charges in the Barr DOJ, the very definition of weaponization of the law, and so many other issues well documented by media analysts such as Media Matters, emptywheel.net, NYT and WaPo fell down on their fundamental function of informing the citizenry of the threat to our democracy by corrupt right-wing actors.
Audacity of Krope has taken the trouble to lay out the criteria by which they judge the media. A summarising I much appreciate because it is a succinct description of what the Fourth Estate must do in a democracy and how the corporate media has refused to perform this function and even undermine it.
A dispassionate criticism on your part would be to render your opinion explicitly on any subset of Audacity’s criteria instead of using the word “basically” to dismiss what in my opinion is a good faith argument made by Audacity. If circumstances are such that you cannot presently afford the energy to acknowledge the criteria Audacity has painstakingly listed, then I think a more enlightening exchange would be fostered by your saying that you reserve the right to consider these criteria and render your opinion on them later.
I can exercise some imagination and speculate that in eloquently listing their criteria for how they judge the media, Audacity may have left you with the impression that your valid point about the vote of consumers of MSM was dismissed by them. But, (so sorry for this “but”), to my view Audacity’s substance filled elucidation for the reasons they disagree with your conclusion drawn from the fact you cited is far from a dismissal but a carefully examined apt counter-argument to your premise that the MSM has performed its democratic function adequately.
I really value everybody’s insights here and I hope that justifiable passions in the moment do not undermine genuine examination.
Cheers,
ramona
Ramona
I need to learn to think, read and type faster…
Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony
@KatKapCC: @Ramona: ‘Here’s why that’s bad for Biden’ IS OPINION writing! That is an opinion column! Seriously! How do you not see that? You call me lazy and question my judgement!?
An example of politics coverage that is actual reporting is this: ‘ACLU files lawsuit seeking details on Trump’s plan for mass deportation’ or ‘Trump Confirms Plans to Use Military for Mass Deportations’, both in the Washington Post. Can you not see the difference? That’s the objective information the reporters you want fired are providing.
The Audacity of Krope
The reporters aren’t the problem. It’s ownership and management. And these seemingly very valid stories, no way I can find out the relevant information without WaPo?
Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony
@Ramona:
An investigation that would not have existed if we didn’t have the MSM. You wouldn’t know about it at all.
The Audacity of Krope
@Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony: So they prioritized right-wing propaganda over their own work that they paid their employees for and this is a point in their favor?
This is what I’m talking about, the bias goes beyond simple “factual reporting” and manifests in choosing what to prioritize.
ETA: Imagine arguing that it was OK that the NYT ran approximately 9 billion stories about Hillary Clinton’s emails because one time on page C5 they noted that the handful of documents in question were marked ambiguously.
Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony
@The Audacity of Krope: Kill the MSM, and you fire all the reporters. Those were two example stories of political reporting that isn’t opinion based. Could you find that information without the Washington Post specifically? Sure, you could get it from another part of the MSM or by being a member of the ACLU and subscribing to their newsletters. Would it be brought to your attention without the MSM? Maybe, if you are actively subscribed to or watching for information about the ACLU in social media. Otherwise, probably not. That’s true of most things. You’ll be informed only on the narrow set of issues you focus on within the narrow bubble of similar people you spend time with. Having a broad array of relevant things and investigative reporting published is the whole point of the MSM. Their opinion pieces are often trash, but that reporting is very useful.
The Audacity of Krope
That’s my whole point. They might do some small amount of that but it is buried under a metric ton of swill. They consistently fail at the specific thing you claim they offer. The MSM’s approach to reporting leads to more confusion than enlightenment.
Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony
@The Audacity of Krope: Listening to NPR and reading the Washington Post, I saw the opposite of Ramona’s accusations. I didn’t see the propaganda prioritized and treated as factual. I saw reporting on what limited facts were known about the accusations, as well as the fact there wasn’t evidence of corrupt behavior by Biden. That later part was emphasized. Given I actually get news from the MSM, and you guys apparently don’t, which of us has a more realistic experience with the reporting and which of us is just repeating the criticism of others based on a subset of articles (mostly opinion pieces) the critics have linked to?
Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony
@The Audacity of Krope:
No, most of what they do isn’t swill. I’d call it 70% reporting and 30% easy to skip swill. But given you don’t actually read a paper, you wouldn’t know that. You’d just repeat what the critics you do follow say, particularly if the only articles they ever link to are in the swill category.
The Audacity of Krope
Given your tendency to make sloppy, unfounded assumptions that completely ignore things that have already been said; such as the fact I do use mainstream sources, implicitly distrust them, and make the effort to corroborate their claims myself; I’m making a mental note that you aren’t worth engaging with further.
I read the NYT daily for 15 years. I used to watch CNN and MSNBC too. I, to this day, can’t avoid Fox to save my life. I’ve given them a million chances and continue to give them chances and I’m here to tell you they ain’t shit, none of them.
Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony
@The Audacity of Krope:
I’m making my assumptions based on this statement where you state you ONLY read MSM articles others have linked to. That implies ‘others’ are directing your MSM consumption. FYI. I don’t consider Fox to be the MSM. Fox is a straight up GOP propaganda outfit. CNN is only a little better and is 80% swill, which is why I don’t watch it. MSNBC, I’ve never watched. Cable news is worthless.
The Audacity of Krope
@Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony: When you stop trusting someone, do you go on with your relationship unchanged or do you mostly disconnect. I’m becoming more certain by the second you’re fairly dishonest, a cherry picker par excellence.
Cherry picking articles, cherry picking quotes from a discussion when an entire personal history was discussed. Twice now.
Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony
@The Audacity of Krope: If you think I’m being dishonest, that sad. I point things out to give you examples of where I’m coming from. I pointed out that quote so you understood why I don’t think you are being fair and why I think you are only looking at the MSM from a incomplete, slanted perspective. My issue is that for years now I’ve seen an active assault against every imperfect system we have for trying to get at the truth: science, reporting, the judicial system, etc. It used to only be coming from the right and the most fringy parts of the left. Now its non-stop from all sides. Now there’s this desire everywhere to tear it all down. Except there is nothing good to replace it, and that vacuum is dangerous. What comes next is a new dark ages. I used to just ignore it. Now I’m pushing back.
The Audacity of Krope
Legacy media is not trying to get at the truth. It decides what truth to tell based on polling to determine what will get the most clicks. This is not those other institutions. In my entire adult life, there has not been a functioning media.
I’m not going to lie to myself and pretend it’s functioning just because I would prefer it to be so.
wenchacha
@Ruckus: We all drop acid together and get a brain reboot.
KatKapCC
@Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony: There were countless articles on economic topics, on foreign policy, etc, where the entire frame of the article was DEMOCRAT BAD no matter what. Where do you think the “This is great news for McCain” trope came from? Articles written by reporters on economic policy published in the “US” section are not opinion writing.
I’m not saying no MSM source has ever once published a good and fact-based article. But are you seriously saying they have never once downplayed a Democrat’s achievements while ignoring the true horribleness of a Republican?
Ramona
@Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony: True! I did say that NYT conducted the investigation that uncovered this. NYT then proceeded to memory hole their very own investigation and did not refer to it at all when covering the trial.
This one and done scatter-shot coverage and lack of consistency fostered by the owners of the corporate media is not up to shoring up our democracy. Sulzberger even flatly stated that the NYT would not defend democracy because that was a partisan concern (not his exact words).
There are very many good investigative journalists but their work is diluted by the work of lazy reporters who did not even emphasize that the so-called “Hunter Biden laptop” could NEVER be verified to belong to Hunter Biden! (JEEZ! How the hell did “Hunter Biden laptop” become a part of our vocabulary and not “alleged laptop”? Yet, the judge permitted evidence from the laptop to be used by the prosecutors. I only know this because Marcy Wheeler the independent journalist owner of emptywheel.net carefully read the docket, put together what it meant and reported on it in context. None of the well-resourced WaPo and NYT journalists even bothered to read the docket, keep track of the facts and cohere that into the pertinent narrative. This parlous state of affairs is on the editors, not the good investigative journalists. I agree with your implicit premise that there has to be a matrix to enable good journalists to earn a livelihood and the idea we are presenting is that the current corporate structure is not conducive to adequate investigation and monitoring of the powers that be. We are in the process of figuring out alternatives but part of that is breaking the hegemony of the current corporate MSM which has spent decades demonizing Democrats. I remember how they denigrated Gore for wearing brown, for Pete’s sake! And nothing has changed. We are not going to be motivated to vigorously devise alternatives if we are not alert to the flaws in how news is made.
In mathematics and logic, there is the property of necessary but not sufficient. You are pointing to the bare subset of coverage that is necessary. It wasn’t sufficient and I contend that large swathes of it is actually destructive of democracy.
I need to read again what you mean when you mention “good for Biden” and opinion. Got to go cook now.
Ramona
@Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony: I’m sorry if in my prolixity I gave you the impression that I was referring to the House Republicans investigation into Joe Biden’s corruption. I haven’t made any claims about that and good on NPR and WaPo if they repeatedly said that the Republican investigation was a continuing politicization of a corrupt process started by Bill Barr. (Did they?)
I was referring to parts of the Giuliani provided hard drive allowed by the judge in the Hunter Biden gun trial.
Ramona
@Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony: I see where you are coming from. But, neither science nor the judicial system are conducted as profit making enterprises so tearing those accounts down is motivated by bad-faith actors. The NYT and WaPo are profit making enterprises and that coupled with their hegemony leads to a compromise of their democracy protecting function.
You are right to be concerned about the dwindling of investigative journalism outlets.
I agree with Audacity and many media analysts have talked about how a reflexive avoidance of bias as a journalistic standard makes for a lack of context and a tendency to not notice the bias that slip in via emphasis and omission.
I think it would be far better if we had an explicitly and frankly progressively biased widespread media and let ourselves battle it out with the clearly labeled rightwing outlets without self-professed powerful purportedly objective news purveyors setting the major tone of public discussion. Those outlets that wish to purport no bias should set out clear standards for how they strive to ensure accuracy and be more stringently held to them.
EM
“He is the biggest mansplaining, interrupting, preening dick on the planet.”
I occasionally watch the show and don’t like it or him, but from what I’ve seen it’s the exact opposite. Most of the time Mika interrupts everyone! I mean she literally steps on everything everyone is saying. Maybe it was an anomaly the few times you watched it, but as much as I dislike him, she makes it utterly unwatchable.
sab
@EM: She lives in fear of someone saying something interesting or omg controversial.
Karen
I will never forgive those two scumbags that went to Mar-a-Lago to surrender to the big orange baboon.
Brant Lamb
Well, now we know who will lead the Vichy wing of MSNBC. Morning Jerk.