Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Following reporting rules is only for the little people, apparently.

If a good thing happens for a bad reason, it’s still a good thing.

Let’s delete this post and never speak of this again.

Authoritarian republicans are opposed to freedom for the rest of us.

GOP baffled that ‘we don’t care if you die’ is not a winning slogan.

The low info voters probably won’t even notice or remember by their next lap around the goldfish bowl.

Insiders who complain to politico: please report to the white house office of shut the fuck up.

Not loving this new fraud based economy.

Accountability, motherfuckers.

The snowflake in chief appeared visibly frustrated when questioned by a reporter about egg prices.

When you’re in more danger from the IDF than from Russian shelling, that’s really bad.

“I was told there would be no fact checking.”

It is possible to do the right thing without the promise of a cookie.

Fundamental belief of white supremacy: white people are presumed innocent, minorities are presumed guilty.

You passed on an opportunity to be offended? What are you even doing here?

Perhaps you mistook them for somebody who gives a damn.

You’re just a puppy masquerading as an old coot.

Disagreements are healthy; personal attacks are not.

The Supreme Court cannot be allowed to become the ultimate, unaccountable arbiter of everything.

Republicans: slavery is when you own me. freedom is when I own you.

There is no right way to do the wrong thing.

I’ve spoken to my cat about this, but it doesn’t seem to do any good.

Of course you can have champagne before noon. That’s why orange juice was invented.

Their boy Ron is an empty plastic cup that will never know pudding.

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Sunday Morning Open Thread: The Show That Never Ends

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The whole interview is very calming.

Do not forget…

Reader Interactions

184Comments

  2. 2.

    SFAW

    @Baud:

    Or they could have been loudly-and-proudly defiant.

    Something something “good Germans” something.

    [Not that I think them being defiant would have resulted in any kind of concerted pushback against Trumpian terror/fascism. But at least they’d set a marker (or whatever).]

  3. 3.

    hrprogressive

    Scarborough of 20 years ago wouldn’t have backed down.

    Guess that firebrand is long gone.

    Sounds like we need a “Don’t be a ‘Good German'” campaign.

  5. 5.

    eclare

    I just joined Bluesky!  Thanks so much to Mousebumples for the starter pack and to Majorx4 for the post with instructions.

    I am eclare2.bsky.social.  I can’t believe eclare was taken!  No need to follow me, I don’t post, but if you see eclare2 as following you, that’s me.

  6. 6.

    Suzanne

    I don’t understand the impulse to “make a liberal Joe Rogan”. Why not just have Dems go on Joe Rogan? That’s how that Overton window gets shifted.

  8. 8.

    SFAW

    @Baud:

    To whom? Apparently Skum is joking about it, but Teh Googly doesn’t indicate an actual sale has taken place. Or are you calling the impending/purported “spinoff” a sale?

  10. 10.

    The Thin Black Duke

    I remember seeing Joe go on an unhinged rant about those “damned stupid kids” protesting the atrocities in Gaza. Howard Beale woulda been proud.

    But now?

    Those damned stupid kids got more guts than you and Mika do.

  11. 11.

    WaterGirl

    @Baud:

    But I don’t care what Dems do.

    I haven’t been reading much since the election.

    Have you just given up?  Are you planning to tune out?

    That’s what I did after the Supreme Court ruled in Bush v. Gore, but I don’t see how that can be an option now with literal democracy and people’s lives at stake.

  12. 12.

    Baud

    I assume all aspects of outreach and media will be debated now that we have confirmation that we’re not a majority.

  14. 14.

    Suzanne

    @Baud: It’s the kind of thing that will take a lot more than one guy, no matter how good he is. It’s going to take years, if not a generation.

    The Dem brand identity was baked in over years.

  15. 15.

    comrade scotts agenda of rage

    @Baud:

    Pete on Fox doesn’t seem to have had any impact on the Overton Window.

    Exactly.  And Sec Pete was brilliant at going on Faux “News” and yet…

    One question is assume we had dozens just like him to hit those outlets (we don’t), it wouldn’t make any difference cuz the reich-wing mediasphere isn’t setup and designed for “the other guys” to be on there to make a difference.

    I agree with people who think that the left trying to setup parallels of right wing mechanisms is pointless, aka Air America as just one example.

    It’s techniques and methods that they use (that many self-professed progressives also use to promote certain policy issues) which are effective and can be applied on the left.

  17. 17.

    scribbler

    @WaterGirl:  So good to see you!  Been a little worried about your absence.

    ETA: You were such a warrior for the election.  I hope you’re able to get a little rest now, at least.

  18. 18.

    Geminid

    Delaware Rep.-elect Sarah McBride will appear on CBS’s Face the Nation this morning, along with Senators Tammy Duckworth and Chris Van Hollen. I expect Van Hollen will be asked about his votes last week to restrict military aid to Israel.

    I’m not sure which side Senator Duckworth landed on those votes, but I bet she’ll have something to say about Defense Secretary nominee Peter Hedgeseth.

  22. 22.

    WereBear

    I don’t see why we don’t lean the eff in.

    “Yes, we saw this coming.”

    “We explained why this is a bad idea.”

    “Because they are thieves and con artists.”

    “This isn’t the SuperBowl. It’s your life.”

  23. 23.

    Another Scott

    @comrade scotts agenda of rage: OTOH, where you stand depends on where you sit.  If you don’t hear actual Democratic viewpoints, you’re not going to know about and think about Democratic viewpoints. How many throat singers are in Dubuque??

    There’s never One Weird Trick.  But we have to do the work anyway.

    The Overton Window doesn’t move itself.

    My $0.02.

    Hang in there, everyone.

    Best wishes,
    Scott.

  24. 24.

    Suzanne

    @Baud: Both of those things are years-long, multi-election-cycle efforts. And it will require engagement on many platforms…. all different sorts of media, probably many of which haven’t been invented yet.

    I just seriously question the idea that we should build a separate media ecosystem. I think it’s unlikely to be feasible, and I don’t think it would be effective at changing the minds we want to change.

  27. 27.

    SFAW

    @comrade scotts agenda of rage: ​
     

    I agree with people who think that the left trying to setup parallels of right wing mechanisms is pointless, aka Air America as just one example.

    It would take a sustained effort, with a left-side version of Roger Ailes (without the disgusting personality, of course), to do so.
    Bezos has the ability to do fund such a thing. It would doubtless face headwinds, especially with the impending Maladministration (and its likely efforts to stifle dissent), and probably a false start or two (which is why the Bezos’s wealth thing is important).
    As Suzanne noted, it’s a long-term project. The fascists have been demonizing the MSM for almost 50 years (leading to the MSM first running scared, and now capitulating), and Newtie’s GOPAC set the tone for demonizing the Dems over 30 years ago. Again, we’d need deep pockets.
    But with Bezos having shown himself to be a quisling …

  28. 28.

    Baud

    @Suzanne:

    Whether we should or not is moot because I don’t see anyone trying to.

    I’ll support whatever strategy they choose. Outreach isn’t designed for me, after all.

  31. 31.

    comrade scotts agenda of rage

    @p.a.:

    Josh outlines what we termed “a blinding flash of the obvious” back in my USMC Command & Staff college days.

    And it’s something the GOP has been doing, exactly as he outlines, for decades now.

    Nancy Smash in a lot of ways found her national political voice leading the opposition over the years and then effectively translated that into critical support for two presidents.

    Everybody was understandably devastated when Dubya got the second term but damn if the opposition party led by her wasn’t an inspiration.

    Time to do that again as Josh says.

  32. 32.

    Another Scott

    @Baud: I’m in the Both And camp.  We always have to tailor our message to the audience.  Schumer going to ribbon cuttings and talking up all the new construction in upstate NY as a result of the CHIPS and Science Act isn’t going to matter to people in Fulton County, GA.  Doing the work to get more idealistic college students and new Americans on-side on incremental progress in foreign policy isn’t going to help much with retirees at The Villages.  Etc.

    We’re a big complicated country.  One message isn’t going to work everywhere.  Rep. Claude Pepper’s “Keep your foul hands off Social Security!” could still work, but 20-somethings usually have more immediate concerns.  “Personal freedom” and “Mind your own business” and “Keep politicians out of your personal decisions” and “Freedom means being able to live your life without some kook threatening or shooting you when you’re out in public”, etc., might be an opening, but it’s not fully fleshed out yet (and people have to be willing to hear it).

    Dunno.

    If this stuff were easy, it would have been done already (and if the other side had it figured out, they would get much more than 50% of the vote, also too).

    Best wishes,
    Scott.

  33. 33.

    brendancalling

    It’s kind of funny seeing Xitter posts now that we cool kids are at Blue Sky. My understanding is that it’s kind of devolved into Truth Social 2.0.

  34. 34.

    SFAW

    @Suzanne: ​
     

    and I don’t think it would be effective at changing the minds we want to change.

    It depends on which minds we think we want to change. The Foxbots and adjacent are lost causes. [Not sure where the Andrew-Tate-curious (for lack of a better term) yutes fall on the spectrum.]

    But, if I’m understanding some of the more insightful/less-knee-jerk post election analyses correctly, there are a lot of “low information” voters who pulled the (figurative) lever for the Orange Dictator. It’s those voters that I see as potentially “gettable,” by turning them into “moderate-information” voters. Not an easy task, of course, but not insurmountable.

    Of course, then there’s the alleged didn’t-show-up Dem cohort. That’s a different problem to address, but I see it as doable.

    But WTF do I know? I’m merely an asshole commenter on An Almost Top 10,000 Political Blog

  35. 35.

    karen marie

     

    @Baud: I am surprised you don’t understand the difference between a majority that prefers policies and a majority of voters.

    It’s been shown over and over and over that Dem policies are popular with a majority of voters, too many of whom simply don’t believe they’re Dem policies. The GOP has spent multiple decades destroying the Dem brand while the Dem party apparatus stood silent.

  36. 36.

    Destroy Oh Boy

    The most pathetic aspect of Joe and Mika’s capitulation is the false bravado. A huge part of Scarborough’s brand or ethos was his tough guy schtick. He said “what needed to be said.” Of course, this is a crafted image, but a good brand is presumably based in something authentic. I think his liberal audience based their viewership, in part, on his spine in standing up to Trump. The same Trump who stoked the fires of Joe’s dead intern problem.

    Joe and Mika, in choosing to break their commitment, are more under Trump’s thumb than any combination of legal or extra-legal means could achieve. Their lack of integrity has them entirely at his disposal. Integrity will be the only quality of character capable of beating back the tide of Trumpism. Liberals, in general, don’t want to have news catered to their views. They want journalism that speaks truth to power, punches up, and is willing to live and die by their integrity. Morning Joe pretended to have these qualities to a limited degree, and perhaps Joe and Mika even believed they had integrity. However, a quality is only as strong as it is tested. Trump out of power could be ignored and teased safely. The test arrived, and they failed so quickly as to take my breath away. A stunning cowardice.

  37. 37.

    Enhanced Voting Techniques

    They really are trying their damnest to make Joe Scarborough out to be some liberal free speech warrior, and we all need to go save his show for him, aren’t they?  Never mind the dude is a former Republican that was given 95 percent lifetime rating from the American Conservative Union.  This guy is one of the people who created Trump, it would be rather fitting if Trump destroyed him, if you asked me.

  38. 38.

    Elizabelle

    @WereBear:

    I don’t see why we don’t lean the eff in.

    “Yes, we saw this coming.”

    “We explained why this is a bad idea.”

    “Because they are thieves and con artists.”

    “This isn’t the SuperBowl. It’s your life.”

    I love this.  Voters need to grow the fuck up, and stop with the fantasizing.  Not be so trivial and “vibes” oriented.  Of course, the MSM environment was all “vibes” too.

    Not going to diss Democrats because we did not fail.  The voters did.  That is a different problem.  Being overwhelmed with disinformation, when you’re the equivalent of an apathetic adolescent.

  40. 40.

    RevRick

    Our best campaign ads are what Republicans do.
    We won in 2006, because Bush was a royal screwup, ably assisted by the GOP page scandal. We won in 2008, because Bush was a royal screwup. We won in 2018, because Trump and the GOP were royal screwups. We won in 2020, because Trump was a royal screwup.

    What are the odds on 2022?

  42. 42.

    Kay

    I recently spent time in Portugal with a group of expats (to Portugal). I listened to a group of (all) Europeans discuss how perhaps the approach should be to treat the US like a huge and much more dangerous Hungary. It broke my heart. I was glad to be a fly on the wall though.

    I try not to dwell on it. If I have a superpower, it’s compartmentalization. Anyway- here’s a very good piece making that exact comparison, with some tips:

    Trump’s goal this time is to remake the American government to enhance his power. He isn’t the first modern right-wing populist to attempt this — he is following a playbook pioneered by Hungary’s Viktor Orbán. I lived through Orbán’s power grab as a member of Hungary’s parliament and have been researching populism since. I’ve learned a few things along the way that might help Trump’s opponents understand how he won and how they can fight back.

    Everything I’ve heard so far from Americans seems insufficient to the magnitude of the problem. I’ll keep listening and reading.

  43. 43.

    K-Mo

    @Suzanne: I vote for both.  The point is to engage and persuade the kind of people who find Rogan entertaining and or profound.  Also known in the field as “dumb people.”  Pod save and caller daddy don’t resonate with those folks.  Dumb it down by 64%.

    Similarly with the Nelk boys.  Make some truly dumb shows that aren’t right wing propaganda and slip in a little truth here and there.

  44. 44.

    SFAW

    @Baud:

    Whether we should or not is moot because I don’t see anyone trying to.

    The “should we or shouldn’t we try?” question is separate from whether anyone is currently doing it, and actually precedes the implementation aspect.​

  45. 45.

    Destroy Oh Boy

    @SFAW:  I am of the opinion that any of us who have beliefs that fundamentally oppose what the GOP has become will have to rely upon ourselves to do the work. No deep pockets, no Hollywood, no structure from without.

    The algorithm, to a degree, can be of benefit because it has no opinions. Social media algorithms strictly care about attention and data. I would argue that implementing a grassroots algorithm strategy to break the stranglehold of fascism on the internet is a good place to start.

  46. 46.

    Kay

    Also, if anyone expected cable news celebrities to stand up to anything I have a bridge to sell you. Them folding and kissing the ring is the least surprising thing that has ever happened.

    I don’t know who is going to end up strong and resilient in this, but it was never going to be them. I expect there will be surprises – people who step up who we didn’t anticipate would so so.

  47. 47.

    SFAW

    @Kay: ​

    Them folding and kissing the ring is the least surprising thing that has ever happened.

    Well, except for the NY Jets choking.

    [Sorry, Kay, that was really for the benefit of Omnes, if he’s awake at this hour.]

  48. 48.

    suzanne

    @SFAW:

    But, if I’m understanding some of the more insightful/less-knee-jerk post election analyses correctly, there are a lot of “low information” voters who pulled the (figurative) lever for the Orange Dictator. It’s those voters that I see as potentially “gettable,” by turning them into “moderate-information” voters. Not an easy task, of course, but not insurmountable.

    Agreed.
    A lot of the discussion here is very in the weeds for this type of person. Have you seen all those surveys about what these people think are Harris’ positions? Half of them think she supported defunding the police or whatever.

    There’s a generalized impression that the low-info people get, and it’s an amalgam of what they hear over years from everybody ranging from the president to AOC to their annoying niece at Oberlin. That all cooks jnto this brain stew that becomes “the brand”.

    But, I agree with Osita Nwanevu that if we look at the electorate as a field of play, we can make some gains. I think we stand a better chance of making gains by filling voids. Avoiding places like Rogan just leaves a void. If we conceived of the Dem party as a team, made up of different people with different strengths but one common purpose, it seems to me that the better course of action is to engage in the field where people are listening.

  50. 50.

    CaseyL

    We’re fucked. There are no national institutions that will effectively resist, or want to. In the name of their own survival, they’ll fall in line even if they “don’t approve” (with pursed lips) of what’s being done in their name.

    So: We’re in the fascist cycle; the only question is whether it’s German fascism (which lasted about 10 years, from start to finish) or Spanish (which lasted 40 years, more or less).

    Unfortunately, I think we’re in for the multi-generational variety, for one simple reason: Nazi Germany only lasted 10 years only because a global war was fought against it; and even then, only because Germany invaded too many other countries. Certainly not because of its atrocities, or its economics (which most companies were happy to get involved with), or any normative moral/ethical reasons. This cannot be emphasized enough: the Allies went to war against Germany only when its expansionism posed a threat to their own sovereignty.

    Having concluded that, I’m not at all sure what kind of defiance or pushback will be effective. Maybe study up on what succeeded (if, in fact, anything did succeed) in opposing Franco in Spain or Pinochet in Chile. The US is a large country, and certain regions of it may effectively resist… though I can’t imagine for how long, or what the cost will be.

  52. 52.

    Kay

    Trump supporters in my office are telling me they can’t wait for Trump to take office because Biden overtaxed them.

    I don’t even respond anymore. They have convinced themselves that the current US income tax structure, Donald Trump’s single accomplishment, is Joe Biden’s. Oh-they also think Trump is getting rid of all payroll taxes while saving Social Security.

    Not sure what Democrats are supposed to do with this level of lazy.

  53. 53.

    suzanne

    @K-Mo: If we can create a liberal platform and turn some people to it, sure. Great. I am skeptical that we can do it, but I suppose there isn’t harm in trying. I just don’t think avoiding places like Rogan is a good idea. so think it’s counter-productive.

  55. 55.

    comrade scotts agenda of rage

    About a week ago, Markos had a good piece on this over at Teh Orange:

    https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2024/11/18/2287041/-Trump-voters-f-cked-around-now-they-re-about-to-find-out

    He buries the message prescription at the end:

    And the rest of us? For now, all we can do is look on and ask every time a leopard takes a bite, “Is this what you voted for?”

    Some people are too far gone and will say “Yes!” and blame Democrats for their sad lot in life. Good for them. Trump will always have his 20-30% deplorable base. But the rest of them? We can remind them there is a political alternative, both in 2026 and 2028. (Hint: Calling them stupid and racist won’t do the job.)

    There are no capital-D Democratic guardrails to mitigate the effects of Trumpism. The best we can do is see this as an opportunity for people to see what it really looks like, and plan for better days ahead.

    We do a lot of that highlighted bit in here (raises hand).  We need to acknowledge those realities when messaging.

  56. 56.

    kindness

    Man…too many of you are giving normie Americans way too much credit.  Joe Biden got elected because Trump’s abuses of power and horrible government were fresh in people’s minds.  Kamala lost because (misogeny &) American normies have the minds of a fruit fly and forgot how bad Trump was at it, and the MSM sanewashed Trump’s every speech.  American normies are idiots.  We’ll have an advantage again in ’28 because Trump’s hideousness will again be fresh in everyone’s minds.  I wouldn’t bet the house on ’32 now though.  Fruit flys only live 10 days.

  57. 57.

    hrprogressive

    The question of Fox vs Joe Rogan is a bit of a chicken or the egg problem IMO.

    Democrats like Pete go on there because they…think if they get their message out on “a legitimate news channel” people will care? That’s what I think their calculus is, anyway.

    I also think they probably think something like Rogan’s show either 1) isn’t legitimate or 2) they don’t want to be the ones to give it legitimacy.

    The problem with this argument is that, regardless of what shitty or unhinged thing he might say, it is Rogan’s Audience that give Rogan legitimacy. By tuning in, they legitimize what he’s doing.

    And, the thing is –

    Rogan claimed he wanted to have MVP on, and to have a good faith conversation with her.

    Whether one believes he would have stuck to that or not is a reasonable point of debate.

    However, Rogan and his Audience appear to claim a level of “open-mindedness” about topics of discussion in a way that Fox absolutely does not have.

    Why any Democrat would want to willingly go on a straight up propaganda network where 95% of their viewing Audience is old, angry people who are completely brainwashed and won’t listen to anything you have to say is beyond me.

    Why any Democrat wouldn’t take seriously a Podcaster with tens if not hundreds of millions of listens each month who claims to at least be open to ideas they don’t already support is beyond me.

    If MVP went on the show and it turned into gotcha nonsense they could have ended the interview.

    Democrats seem unwilling or unable to call out bullshit, either, which I also don’t understand.

    The Fascist GOP has often not had the facts or the law on their side, so they pound the table instead.

    And guess what?

    For 25 years, pounding the table has often been enough for voters.

    Democrats by and large refuse to pound the table back. And they lose elections because of it.

    So, again, when people like me say the party needs a rebuilding, it needs to be full of people – younger, angrier, savvier people – who understand basic truths about the opposite party, and can, and will, respond in-kind.

    Instead of, you know. Rushing to the nearest press conference to boldly claim you can’t wait to work with the party full of members and voters who literally can’t wait till Trump tells them to execute you for existing.

    But I am not part of the consultant or donor class, so you know. Blogging into the void it is.

  58. 58.

    SFAW

    @Destroy Oh Boy: ​

    Not disagreeing with your points about social media — I pretty much stay away, thus have no insight into that whole universe — but for there to be a sustained effort across the entire media ecosystem, deep pockets are needed. The Dems have shown, unfortunately, that they’re not prone to sustained (i.e., years-long) efforts, when left to their own devices. They need someone like Murdoch, whose years-long effort to destroy liberal democracy in three countries (Australia, UK, USA) was what drove him.
    I had hopes for Bezos, when he bought the WaPo, but that was obviously misplaced hope.

  59. 59.

    Splitting Image

    @Suzanne:

    I don’t understand the impulse to “make a liberal Joe Rogan”. Why not just have Dems go on Joe Rogan? That’s how that Overton window gets shifted.

    I don’t think we need a liberal Joe Rogan. I think we need a new MAD magazine.

    MAD was founded in the 1950s and was created to a large degree as a counter to McCarthyism. MAD’s publisher Bill Gaines was brought before a Senate committee to defend his line of horror comics, which were then the go-to scapegoat for corrupting the youth of the nation. The Comics Code Authority was literally created to drive Gaines’ EC Comics out of business.

    The only thing Gaines seemed to hate more than McCarthyism was advertising. I started reading MAD when I was a little kid and was exposed to articles which were supposedly satirical but really completely accurate depictions of how advertising skewed people’s perceptions of reality and often drove newspaper coverage. MAD was one of the only places you could read articles like that because MAD was one of the few publications which did not accept advertising.

    I think that MAD readers are probably still reliably anti-Trump compared to the average person and better able to see through the Republicans’ persistent lying, but we can’t build a resistance on a magazine whose heyday was the 1950s and 1960s. However, we do need a new way to reach people the way that MAD reached people back in the 1960s.

  64. 64.

    Starfish (she/her)

    @Baud: There have been repeated efforts (Air America, Current TV, etc) But Democrats are interested in multiple different issues and not one issue.

  65. 65.

    Geminid

    @brendancalling: I haven’t seen much difference in Twitter. But I follow people like Ragnarok Lobster and he’s a quick blocker. The trolls are not that much a factor on the foreign accounts I follow.

    On the other hand, I saw a lot of right-wing crap on answers to my new Representative’s posts. Eugene Vindman is a big target for the MAGA maniacs; they want him tried for treason over his role in Trump’s first impeachment.

    Unlike Mr. Lobster, Vindman cannot block people because he is a public figure. I guess I’ll spend a couple minutes from time to time telling off his trolls. I’ve grown to like Eugene Vindman.

  68. 68.

    Starfish (she/her)

    @SFAW: The Andrew Tate folks are far to the right of Rogan. Also, there has been a leak of all the folks stupid enough to give money to Andrew Tate.

    I don’t think we should give up on Rogan.

  72. 72.

    Starfish (she/her)

    @Kay: Various Etsy sellers are already selling items that say “Thoughts and Tariffs” instead of “Thoughts and Prayers.”

  74. 74.

    narya

    @suzanne:If we conceived of the Dem party as a team, made up of different people with different strengths but one common purpose,

    I don’t think there’s a single common purpose, except one that’s too vague to mean anything (or that can be twisted). I do think you’re absolutely right that there are different people with different strengths–and different audiences, as well. The challenges we face at the moment include not having anything solid to fight except nominees–horrible nominees, yes, and a refusal to allow background checks–but they’re not in charge yet. Another challenge is that we’re just TIRED, and we know that Bad Shit is coming, even if we don’t know exactly which shit. It’s hard to come up with a specific game plan if you don’t know who the opposition is going to be, other than to get in shape, metaphorically. Maybe we should all rewatch the Total Football episode of Ted Lasso. ;-)

  75. 75.

    Layer8Problem

    @suzanne:  I know next to nothing about Rogan except that he seems to be an accommodating dope (but popular!) with no insight or concern for people.  Is he an empty vessel with wads of cash and a popular show, or a useful means of propaganda, or a bought and paid for right-winger?

  77. 77.

    tobie

    @Suzanne: Going on Joe Rogan won’t shift the Overton window, which is not to say Democrats shouldn’t show up there, but they should be clear that their words will be taken out of context, blown up out of proportion, misconstrued by Rogan himself and others, who all pull on the same ideological rope.

    I have no magic answers about what to do but figuring out the problem seems important. Focusing on messaging in lieu of the interests controlling the media ecosystem misses the boat in my opinion.

  78. 78.

    Another Scott

    @Kay: Devil’s advocate: 
    We’re never going to have more than a tiny fraction of people who understand tax policy and so forth.  Modern societies have division of labor so that people don’t have to be super generalists in everything.  We elect representative and they create laws and systems and hire experts to do that stuff for us.

    Where we’re messing up, and have for the last 44+ years or so, is electing too many people who aren’t making the laws and systems better.  And far too often, they’re making laws and systems worse. And for far too long and far too often, elections aren’t won on policy, they’re won on lizard-brained stuff.

    Short of some effective vaccine to inoculate us against excessive activation of our fear and anger centers, which I don’t expect in the next 50-100 years, it’s going to be a slog.

    How do we combat the lizard brained stuff? Humor, mocking, listening and talking, personal connections. Eleanor Gordon-Smith has an interesting book on the topic.

    Support good people, work to make things better, and keep one’s eyes on the prizes.

    Best wishes,
    Scott.

  79. 79.

    Lapassionara

    @Splitting Image: This is interesting. My understanding (I’m very old, so this may not be accurate) is that the young people are using multiple platforms (tik tok, eg) to share information. In other words, not just one source of information, and not the legacy media. Using my magic wand (I wish!), I would find some young influencers and set them to work on the topic of the day, week, month. Countering Trumpism, bolstering the ACA, etc.

  80. 80.

    Melancholy Jaques

    @Baud:

    I assume all aspects of outreach and media will be debated now that we have confirmation that we’re not a majority.

    Not to mention that, according to the savviest people in America, we are wrong about everything and out of touch with RealAmericans®.

    More seriously, we did good things and we did things that worked. Not enough, but the worked.  If we want to promote the growth of our brand, we need to focus on what we did right, what was good. Not just this most recent campaign, but the last three or four, including midterms.

  81. 81.

    Chief Oshkosh

    @K-Mo:

    Make some truly dumb shows that aren’t right wing propaganda and slip in a little truth here and there.

    You first. ;)

    Kidding aside, isn’t that what The View is? Maybe it’s not “truly dumb” enough, but I’ve heard some pretty dumb things said. And there are a handful of sports programs that are similar, easily dumb enough, but maybe too little in slipping in “a little truth.”

  82. 82.

    Aziz, light!

    My wife and I have nine TV streaming channels, offering more content than we could watch in three lifetimes. Combined with video games and endless scrolling of amusing videos on their portable devices, Americans are over-entertained and thus easily distracted. If you don’t entertain them, you won’t hold their attention for any length of time or change their minds about anything.

    It’s all the equivalent of soma.

  83. 83.

    Melancholy Jaques

    @Chief Oshkosh:

    When I was on twitter and before that when I was on facebook, the only time I heard anything about The View was when right-wing misogyny went viral. Look what they said. Let that sink in. You can’t make this stuff up.

  84. 84.

    Kay

    @Another Scott:

    Im not asking them to understand tax policy. I’m asking them to know that the candidate they have supported for almost a decade has one accomplishment and it is “the Trump tax cuts”

    Joe Biden didn’t raise their federal income taxes. The fact that they are seething with resentment over this thing that didn’t happen speaks to a problem that is not going to be solved with a podcast.

  86. 86.

    RevRick

    @Kay:

    @CaseyL: I don’t get this let’s give up now, because there’s nothing we can do to stop Trump attitude. Given the super narrow margins the GOP enjoys in the House, there’s only so much bending of the knee that GOP Representatives in swing districts can afford.
    There’s a huge structural difference between us and the Hungary of Orban, and that’s they have a parliamentary structure and we don’t.

    Suppose Trump declares he will cancel elections in 2022. A lot of blue states will respond, “The hell we will.” And every GOP candidate in said blue states will have the millstone of defending this fascist power move to their constituents. I doubt we could claw back the Senate, but the House will be ours for the taking. And it’s not just the House that will be in play, but every legislative seat in blue and purple states. It’s a surefire way to pile up massive GOP losses.
    Trump may want to do all these things, but he has a feral instinct for survival that will likely stay his hands from trying to replicate Orban in our very different structure.

  87. 87.

    JCJ

    @Kay:  “No problem. I wish I liked sports! A good distraction, I bet.”

    NBA League Pass is the only thing keeping me sane

  88. 88.

    tobie

    @Layer8Problem: Rogan is not a good faith actor. He complains about cancel culture. He peddles food supplements and discounts science. He pushed Ivermectin. He just accused Zelensky of being a war monger, eager to start WWIIII. He’s a sexist and an antivaxxer. His only liberal position as far as I know is decriminalizing marijuana. He appeals to the anti-science, anti expertise crowd. He makes his audience feel that if only they ran the country like their small biz everything would be great because we don’t need no elites, no eggheads, not experts, etc.  If that’s the direction the Dem party wants to go in, I’m out.

  89. 89.

    Kay

    @Another Scott:

    Its Ohio, so what probably happened is they are paying higher property taxes because of the bait and switch of cutting state income taxes and then shifting that tax to local taxes, but this is not “expert tax policy”

    I expect them to figure out who and what they are actually paying. They are going to have to do a tiny bit of work. I am just not onboard for coddling spoiled and lazy Americans anymore. I can’t do their ordinary housekeeping work for them.

  93. 93.

    oldgold

    During this most recent election season, getting ready for work I watched Morning Joe.

    I did so even though I considered Joe to be a fraud and found Mika to be a pitiful joke. I put myself through a this because, almost unbelievably, CNN ‘s morning show was worse. Finally, late in the election cycle, I drew the line a turned to the Today show during Mika’s Know Your Worth sets. Only to be driven back to Morning Joe by the wretched crew there. Hell, the Today show’s original co-host J. Fred Muggs had a few IQ points on them.

    Long story short, there is plenty of room in the morning hours for a thoughtful left leaning show.

  94. 94.

    Melancholy Jaques

    @Kay:

    Not sure what Democrats are supposed to do with this level of lazy.

    Lazy? I’m thinking willfully ignorant or just plain stupid.

    Since the Clinton days, we Democrats have been expecting the political media – any day now – to tell the public what the facts are, i.e., the truth. This has been our downfall. They have expressly rejected that as a part of their function.

    We need to do it ourselves and we are all trying to figure out how that might be done. But I hope everyone by now has given up on the notion that anyone other than use will do a damn thing.

    I would like to see party organizations from the neighborhoods up. Democratic Clubs that have websites, social media presence, and IRL activities.

  95. 95.

    tobie

    @Kay: Why is America so ripe for propaganda? That’s what I’d like to understand. Have our schools failed so much that people believe the lies peddled on social media from crap like “Biden raised your taxes” to “unemployment is at a 50-year high” to “chem trails” and “implanted chips”? Or, is it the dawning realization that capitalism may have reached its limits and in lieu of thinking creatively (or thinking at all) about what comes next, people just want to burn it all down. I guess they hold themselves immune from the consequences of burning it all down because they have no sense of what government does.

  96. 96.

    WereBear

    @Baud: I think any present analysis is missing an important variable.

    The Buyer’s Remorse has only just started.

    There’s the people who didn’t vote because they didn’t realize they depended on us.. The ones who didn’t realize they were being conned, as in R “minority outreach.” And the actual MAGAs who didn’t realize how much they did rely on those bleeding-heart-pointy-headed-libs in their lives.

  97. 97.

    different-church-lady

    @Kay: The problem is most people know fuck all about how much tax they pay. I bet I’m one of a handfull of people who actually sat down and ran the numbers on how much McConnell and company cost me (about $500 a year on my meager income).

  99. 99.

    satby

    @Layer8Problem: Rogan is a piece of shit anti-vaxxer, “just asking” right wing framed questioning, NAZI wanna-be. He wanted Harris, in the last weeks of an active campaign, to fly down to Austin to be on his show for a 3 hour interview; as if he was the more important public figure doing Harris a favor. He wasn’t, isn’t, and it wouldn’t have mattered if she had debased herself by going on it.

  100. 100.

    Glidwrith

    @Another Scott: The best I’ve come up with: children should be fed. As an ethical center, one can derive a lot from that standing point.

    Feed the children. If children should be fed,  then they should be educated and not abused. They should get to see a doctor so they don’t get sick.

    From those principles, we can hammer again and again: this is why you want contraception. If you can’t feed children you should be able to not have them.

    This is why we need taxes: children should be fed and educated.

    Children should be safe: get the goddamn guns away from them.

  101. 101.

    different-church-lady

    @WereBear: Yeah. Great. Buyer’s remorse. Makes for “entertaining” news features. But with a compliant SCOTUS and a cowered congress, what’s to stop Trump from having as much iron in his fist as he wants, approval be damned?

  102. 102.

    satby

    @Lapassionara: find some young influencers and set them to work on the topic of the day, week, month. Countering Trumpism, bolstering the ACA, etc.

    Exactly what both Biden and Harris did.

  104. 104.

    Starfish

    @tobie: Communities are shared belief systems. People were isolated during the pandemic, and they built community with online weirdos.

  105. 105.

    Destroy Oh Boy

    @Glidwrith: I completely agree with you. Joe was always terrible. However, he successfully rebranded and helped usher in the Never-Trump Bulwark era of certain conservatives being on the side of liberals.

    The Never-Trumpers were not our allies and nearly all had no intentions of supporting liberal policies. They were displeased with the aesthetic attitude of saying the gross stuff out loud. People like Scarborough were instrumental in corrupting the democratic norms that gave rise to Trump.

  106. 106.

    lowtechcyclist

    @karen marie: ​
     

    The GOP has spent multiple decades destroying the Dem brand while the Dem party apparatus stood silent.

    This. Our big problem with our branding is that the GOP and GOP-aligned media are the ones who have been doing our branding.

    Not sure how we go about undoing or counteracting that, but there’s our problem.

    The two things I’m sure about wrt this is that (1) it’s got to be a long-term project, and (2) it can’t just be done in election seasons – it’s got to be a year-round, year in and year out, sort of thing. It’s not like the other guys ever take a break from demonizing Dems.

  108. 108.

    tobie

    @Starfish: I definitely think the pandemic bred all sorts of online communities that capitalized on people’s distrust of govt. Restrictions on movement, school closures, and masking infuriated many people who felt the govt had no business telling them how to live their lives. But alternative facts and alternative reality go back some way. QAnon was big while HRC was running in 2016. How can one counteract that when each of us lives in our own curated news and media ecosystem? I really don’t know.

  109. 109.

    different-church-lady

    Look it’s really simple: we just buy all the news outlets and all the social media platforms. Problem solved!

  111. 111.

    lowtechcyclist

    @Destroy Oh Boy: ​
     

    The test arrived, and they failed so quickly as to take my breath away. A stunning cowardice.

    Indeed. And if they were afraid of what Trump might throw at them, they didn’t have to capitulate, they could have just retired. You can’t convince me that they aren’t wealthy enough to live comfortably for the rest of their lives off of what they’ve already earned.

  112. 112.

    comrade scotts agenda of rage

    @lowtechcyclist:

    The two things I’m sure about wrt this is that (1) it’s got to be a long-term project, and (2) it can’t just be done in election seasons – it’s got to be a year-round, year in and year out, sort of thing. It’s not like the other guys ever take a break from demonizing Dems.

    Exactly.  And yet, we Dems repeat this same mistake time and time again.  Obama’s vaunted apparatus vanished is a great example (not a criticism of Obama, it’s a broader criticism of the Party).

    It’s one thing Markos discusses in the link I provided above.

    But then, the liberal blogosphere has been saying this since Day 1.

  113. 113.

    trnc

    Kamala had a tremendous ground game, and we still got outvoted. I don’t think we should stop working, but I believe that any chance of gaining significant ground again with the voters will depend on a lot of Trump voters getting hurt by his policies. Obviously, that means a lot of our voters get hurt, too, but the difference is we expect that to happen, so hopefully we can cushion the blow a bit.

    The big question is whether we have enough of a democracy in 2-4 years to get democrats back in power.

  114. 114.

    CaseyL

    @comrade scotts agenda of rage: 

    I keep going back and forth on this myself.

    On the one hand, Trump & Co. are so manifestly vile, it seems to follow that no possible reasoning can excuse supporting them and why would I want anything to do with anyone who looked at Trump & Co. and said “Yes, more of this!”

    OTOH, it might behoove me to accept as a premise that many people in this country are that disenfranchised, are that alienated, are that angry at what TPTB have wrought over the last 30-odd years.

    It is absolutely true that Democratic efforts to alleviate (for example) the country’s transformation into an oligarchy have been milquetoasty, mealymouthed, half-measures. Whether for lack of courage, or instilled institutionalism, the Dems are not willing to use the GOP’s own tactics against them.

    I can definitely see being more angry at the person/entity who watched the abuse and only made half-hearted efforts to stop the abuse, than at the perpetrator of the abuse. You don’t expect much from schoolyard bullies, after all; you DO expect the Adults in Charge to do more than say “tsk tsk.” And when they don’t… I can imagine the rage that builds up, the desire to burn everything down because no one who has the power actually cares.

    So I do understand it, somewhat. I just don’t know what to do about it.

  118. 118.

    schrodingers_cat

    I am following the lead of people who supported Harris and were in Biden’s corner after his debate performance. That would be the CBC. They know what it is to fight against impossible odds.

  121. 121.

    tobie

    @different-church-lady: Schools were still closed when Biden took office. He got blamed for that, though he’s the one who reopened them. He also succeeded in distributing the vaccine, which made COVID a far less serious infection. None of the discontent with his admin hs fact-based. It’s vibes. Russia, China, and techbros did a great job pushing lies to a public that has absorbed the line that govt should be run like a business. No, it shouldn’t. Govt pursue the common good, not private interests.

  122. 122.

    Tony G

    @Enhanced Voting Techniques: Trump, of course, has a lifelong history of destroying people who have helped him, once he determines that they are expendable.  He’ll toss his own children under the bus if he sees advantage in it. Generations of people have been too dumb to learn that lesson.

  123. 123.

    different-church-lady

    @tobie:

    the line that govt should be run like a business.

    None of the people who say that seem to notice that businesses fail all the time.

  124. 124.

    Starfish

    @tobie: Yeah. So our side is not completely squeaky clean of this mess. There are things going on in Republican land that we need to know about that we don’t talk about. For example, that story about the student in Georgia killed by an illegal immigrant is stuff we need to know even if we are not using it to scaremonger.

    Last night, a lot of people were saying Biden should pardon Hunter, and I think that will demoralize people because people will see one system of justice for powerful people and one for everyone else.

    Especially on the tax crime.

  127. 127.

    CaseyL

    @Omnes Omnibus: ​

    “Only Democrats have agency” because only Democrats care about the rule of law.

    Why didn’t the Obama Administration put a whole bunch of banksters go to jail after the Great Recession? “Because they didn’t do anything actually illegal.”

    Why didn’t Trump and his minions who worked every angle they could to overturn the 2020 election results – including by use of force – get clapped into prison before the end of January 2021? “Because we had to build a careful case from the ground up.”

    “Only Democrats have agency” – yes. It’s awful and bad and unfair but “only Democrats have agency” because they’re the only ones who actually, allegedly, care about democracy, equality, and freedom.

  128. 128.

    Geminid

    @tobie: I’m not that big a fan of the Overton Window concept but it seems that to the extent it’s valid, we need to keep it from shifting. If anything it’s shifting to the right now. We might be hearing that more, but right wingers don’t seem to use the concept much.

  129. 129.

    ChristianPinko

    This Bluesky post is a great idea, although any programs like this should probably be handled by Democratic-aligned groups, not the official Democratic party. The problem with too many Democratic policy initiatives is that they’re too abstract. If you’re not tuned in to politics and public policy, you don’t really get how Biden’s initiatives are going to make your life better (even though they will). But anyone can understand breakfast for kids. Small beneficial programs that are clearly visible may have more political impact than big programs that work in ways that aren’t immediately evident. Al Capone ran soup kitchens during the Great Depression because he knew how to make people support him. Tammany Hall gave people Thanksgiving turkeys. This was stuff that people could understand. Why can’t progressives do things like that (without the organized crime and corruption, of course)?

    Also, I think helping people in day-to-day ways is a good way for progressive institutions to connect to people’s daily lives and over time, get them to think of themselves as progressives. If progressive community service / mutual help associations spread, they might move people toward thinking of themselves as “liberals,” just like involvement in Christian churches was instrumental in making people develop identities as “conservatives.”

  132. 132.

    tobie

    @Starfish: I do like the idea commuting Hunter’s sentence to time served, mostly because if his last name were NOT Biden, he probably wouldn’t have been prosecuted, at least not on the gun charge. His was a politically motivated prosecution as far as I can tell.

    Are Dems blameless? No. Of course not. We completely missed the boat on the information war being waged and we knew from 2016 onwards with story after story about the Mercers and Cambridge Analytica that social media was being weaponized by rightwingers and nefarious actors.  That’s how some stories get circulation and generate outrage while others die.

  133. 133.

    Soprano2

    @Baud: You mean how Democrats got branded the “defund the police” party? I think that will go down in history as one of the dumbest slogans ever, something only an activist could love that repels literally everyone else. They couldn’t have helped Republicans more if they wanted to. I’m sure the people who came up with that slogan were all from the same viewpoint,  because anyone else would have pointed out all the many, many problems with it. They seem to have gotten the opposite of what they wanted, which is the definition of failure. Good job, guys. 🙄🙄

  134. 134.

    tobie

    @Geminid: I didn’t say we should throw in the towel. My point was that we need to figure out how to operate in a media environment owned by actors who want to increase their power (Musk, Zuckerberg) and easily manipulated by foreign governments. That for me is the issue, not how often Dems visit Joe Rogan’s studio.

  135. 135.

    Kathleen

    @schrodingers_cat: The only thing that will satisfy the media and certain cohort of voters/Democratic Party is for Democrats to repudiate the power and influence of Black people. The “One Weird Unspoken Trick”. Their messaging will be transformed to magical.

  136. 136.

    Soprano2

    @Kay: That’s because people here don’t believe it can happen here. They take what we have for granted. Lots of them think what the federal government does has little to do with their life.  I think they’re going to find out the hard way that’s not true.

  137. 137.

    Soprano2

    @Kay: Most of them are comfy and terrified of TCFG’s vengeance. I expect non-white and LGBTQ celebs to be braver because they know what’s at stake for them and their communities. Most white ones will fold like a cheap suit.

  139. 139.

    Dorothy A. Winsor

    I’m still traumatized by having Trump back in office. I just tried to list to the “Jack” broadcast, got through maybe 20 minutes, and had to close the link. I’m lie awake worrying about Mr DAW, but the worry about Trump keeps me from being able to let go and sleep. I’m apparently less resilient than I thought.

  141. 141.

    TBone

    Today at church the priest spoke out against Xtian Nationalism.  He spoke of Jesus telling Pilate “you called me a king.” Jesus stuck it to Pilate thusly

    Jesus answered, “You say that I am a king. In fact, the reason I was born and came into the world is to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me.”

    “What is truth?” retorted Pilate…

    I just adore the very young, very cool priest who also acknowledged how hard it is to say the word “king” these days and reminded us that we cannot ignore politics, since there is no place else for us to be, but in the world.

    Telling the truth.

    We were treated to another history lesson, this time about the 1920s and the popularity of the Feast of Christ the King being due to sentiment after WWI.

    My new priest is a rockstar.

  142. 142.

    Layer8Problem

    @WereBear:  I personally have no difficulty telling someone “Anyone who voted for this or sat on their hands is a dope or a paid-up card-carrying collaborator.  Even the both-sidesing media couldn’t quite hide what that clown and his toadies and paymasters were up to.  You didn’t pay attention or you admit that none of this was that important to you.  And now the bad stuff happened and you’re whining”.  And if it makes them stomp off and go from fascist-adjacent or fascist-willfully-ignorant to full on fascist because a mean liberal made them feel bad, great, I hope their new friends are just as much fun.  I have no interest in understanding their economic anxiety or their troubles with immigration or what’s truly in their hearts.  These people want to be liked, valued, and appreciated in spite of their thoughtless hero worship and kicking down.  Good old fashioned middle-school insult and shunning is the least I can offer.  Understanding the individual right-winger and the oblivious fool is a waste of time.  Their duly elected leaders will give them extra negative reinforcement when they complain to the manager.

  145. 145.

    The Audacity of Krope

    @ChristianPinko: Al Capone ran soup kitchens during the Great Depression because he knew how to make people support him. Tammany Hall gave people Thanksgiving turkeys. This was stuff that people could understand. Why can’t progressives do things like that (without the organized crime and corruption, of course)?

    The organized crime and corruption seem a necessary component to getting the money together. It’s all downhill from there.

  148. 148.

    Soprano2

    @Kay: To most people “government” is this big, amorphous thing that they don’t understand. You’re probably right that they’re blaming the wrong part for their taxes going up; they’re blaming the part they already hate because that’s easy and satisfying.

  150. 150.

    Sister Golden Bear

    @Baud: One easy, obvious thing you (and others can do) is call your Congress critter and tell them to vote against Nancy Mace’s hateful HR 10186, which would ban trans people from bathrooms on all federal property—i.e. government buildings, museums, federal court buildings, national parks, national forests, BLM land, major travel hubs like Dulles and Reagan airports, etc., etc.

    Yes, it’s a political stunt, and yes it won’t go anywhere this session. But I guarantee, she’ll re-introduce it next session. So its important to start pushing back now.

  154. 154.

    Kristine

    @Kay: I read it. It makes sense.

    But then I think about how much good Biden did for unions and trade labor and the down-to-earthiness of Tim Walz—didn’t help.

    We complained here all the time about how little folks knew about all that Biden accomplished—we definitely need improved communication.

  155. 155.

    Suzanne

    @Layer8Problem:

    Is he an empty vessel with wads of cash and a popular show, or a useful means of propaganda, or a bought and paid for right-winger? 

    I think he is a true normie in a very late-Gen-X/early-Millennial vein. Not especially political or ideologically consistent, and probably easily fooled with rhetoric and propaganda. Very much a product of the YouTube, quick-cut, go-viral media age.

    I have seen no evidence that he’s bought and paid for. Which doesn’t mean that he isn’t.

  157. 157.

    Kay

    @Kristine:

    I think labor generally held for Democrats – one of the few groups who did, along with Black women, white women with college degrees and Latino women. There just aren’t enough of those groups to carry a national election.
    Harris got our usual share of labor vote, so arguably Bidens efforts there paid off – we bled less there.
    Labor MAY be a group that are effective against fascism/authoritarianism. I don’t think we know who is going to prove out yet.

  158. 158.

    chemiclord

    The fundamental problem with any “[insert media here] of the left” is two fold.

    1) Liberal minds and reactionary minds are literally wired differently.  The same style of message is going to get significantly different responses.  It’s not simply a matter of copying a particular style, or a brand, or method of presentation.  Acting like Republicans simply isn’t the winning move that some of the more aggressive left want it to be.

    2) It’s actually pretty damn easy to work reactionaries into a froth.  You don’t need a coherent message.  Hell, you don’t even particularly need a message.  You just need a target outside of their “tribe,” and then you stoke their fears, beating them over the head with it repeatedly.  That’s it.  That’s the strategy.

    Good luck finding a message that will resonate with even a simple majority of the liberal to left ledger.  Countless people have tried, and countless more will try in the future.  All of them are likely to fail because they will inevitably only be able to secure one niche in the multitude of specific interests within the Democratic coalition.

  159. 159.

    Kay

    @Kristine:

    Certain things scare me a lot. I know people complain about public schools a lot, but I live in a very red county and I don’t think the country is prepared for an entire cohort of “homeschooled” children who are not actually receiving any schooling. Juvenile judges are aware of it, but if you live in a blue state or city you just have no idea this is going on.

    They have their own standardized tests now – super easy exams that just have no connection to the real world. They get to community colleges, are given placement tests, and they can’t pass any of them. We now have juvie judges ordering parents to enroll kids in school – IN a SCHOOL. This has exploded on the Right. Their kids simply aren’t attending school.

  163. 163.

    eclare

    @Suzanne:

    That sounds accurate.  I remember him from his NewsRadio days.

    I doubt that he is bought, he signed at least a $100M deal with Spotify. I can’t guarantee that he isn’t, but the damage to his rep would be immense and he is rich as fuck without being bought.

  166. 166.

    comrade scotts agenda of rage

    @Kay:

    I think labor generally held for Democrats – one of the few groups who did, along with Black women, white women with college degrees and Latino women. There just aren’t enough of those groups to carry a national election.

    Held, yes.  Slipped? Yes.  I saw something at Kos within the last two weeks that said (based on exit polling) that union *households* voted 40% for Hair Furor in 2020 but voted 45% for him this time.  Attribute that 5% slide to whatever.

    By contrast, union households voted for Obama at 58% so Biden did 2 points better in 2020, Harris, 3 points worse in 2024.  There’s ur election (ignoring EC distribution).

    Contrast the 2024 union household votes with black women, 91% for Harris, and Latino women at 60% for Harris.  White women writ large (as opposed to breaking them down college/non-college) was still 53% for the Orange Fart Cloud.

  168. 168.

    apocalipstick

    @Layer8Problem: Rogan is a credulous, conspiracy-loving doofus. Thirty years ago when he was an actor and standup, the News Radio team drew on Rogan’s own beliefs for his character’s weird ideas. He hosted The Man Show on Comedy Central after Adam Carrolla and Jimmy Kimmel left. The initial popularity of his podcast was based on his enthusiasm for pro wrestling and MMA. He’s less a political figure and more a cultural touchstone.

  169. 169.

    geg6

    @Suzanne:

    Totally agree.  I thought at the time that Harris made a mistake not going on Rogan’s show and just relaxing and shooting the shit with him.  I saw a graphic somewhere reliable showing his mostly young male audience is about 1/3 MAGA, 1/3 Democrat and 1/3 independent.  If you aren’t engaging where some gettable voters are, you’re not getting their vote.  We have to do better in speaking to them and appearing where they hang.

  170. 170.

    ChristianPinko

    @The Audacity of Krope: Collectively, progressives have the money for some programs. We don’t have the billionaires on our side, for the most part, but it’s not like BJ commenters are destitute.

    Plus, I’m thinking more of supporting already-existing mutual aid societies, like the ones described in this article. Democrats have come to think in terms of social-service programs delivered for a target population. They should be thinking more in terms of working in partnership with community organizations, so that Democratic activism becomes part and parcel of communities’ lives, instead of an external force that delivers benefits but doesn’t engage people’s commitment and creativity. Back in the day, union locals played this role. Ever since unions basically died, liberalism hasn’t been connected to people’s daily lives or identity. We need something that will fill the role that unions used to have.

  171. 171.

    Geminid

    @tobie: I did not mean to imply you you were throwing in the towel. I’m skeptical about the Overton Window concept anyway.

    I think one reason it became popular was that people thought the Overton Window was moving “left” and wouldn’t move back; a ratcheting effect so to speak. That might be why the concept became popular in liberal circles.

    Now Republicans will try to move whatever is described by “Overton Window” as far right as possible, even if they use different words for the concept.

  172. 172.

    Layer8Problem

    @eclare:  It’s possible that any buying took place before the big Spotify pile was poured on his head.  One timeless truth though is that the rich can’t be bought, because of the money y’see, so I’m sure we’re hearing unvarnished verities from him without fear if any buying took place afterward.

  174. 174.

    K-Mo

    @chemiclord: You’re talking apples and oranges.  No one is getting worked into a froth by Joe Rogan, they are just hanging around, shooting the sh1t and getting dumber.  Along the way they are absorbing whatever misinformed perspective Joe Rogan spouts.  Since Rogan is a white dudebro, that perspective tends to be vaguely Trumpish.  Same with Nelkboys and dudebro sports broadcasts.  They aren’t mostly talking about politics but they are susceptible to passing along RW garbage in small doses.

    Air America was not trying to emulate this model from a more enlightened viewpoint-they tried to do something directly frothy akin to Right wing am radio and it didn’t work.

  175. 175.

    RevRick

    @Omnes Omnibus: I read his book. I refuse to leave X, because I want to be able to throw sand in rightwing mutual wank fests. And when they react with their usual insults, I either side step and continue demolishing their argument or reply that while their insult might have been hot stuff on the 3rd grade playground, they really needed to up their game. The response is usually crickets.

  178. 178.

    Torrey

    @Baud:

     

    Pete on Fox doesn’t seem to have had any impact on the Overton Window.

    You don’t know that, because there’s no way of knowing what would have happened if he had not gone on Fox. I happen to know that he raised some questions in people’s minds, and for some he was a nice young man who represented rather well. Sometimes the needle has to be nudged a little bit at a time.

  179. 179.

    The Audacity of Krope

    @ChristianPinko: Luckily, the internet gives everyone a tool to build a platform. But it is work. And building such a platform that has the institutional trust the the legacy media maintains won’t be fast or easy.

    And, yes, we can do some crowd sourcing. I worry, though that it may not be enough to compete and that this financing model is subject to the continued commitment of your audience.

  180. 180.

    TooManyJens

    Robert Evans of Behind the Bastards feels like the kind of person who should be able to attract a Roganesque demographic. He seems (and admittedly I’m a middle-aged woman so what do I know) to have that sort of “guy’s guy” thing going on—he’s been a war correspondent, he’s sarcastic, talks a lot about all the fights he’s been in and drugs he’s done, tosses machetes around on stage at live shows, etc. He’s too overtly political for the Rogan crowd, not to mention a lot further left than the Democrats right now, but that’s the general direction I’d look in. The right can get away with a sort of passive dumb guy like Rogan because they’re not trying to get people to think, but I think the left needs someone sharp and funny who can also project a “tough” image.

  181. 181.

    AM in NC

    @Destroy Oh Boy:  I agree completely.  WE are going to have to do this work and not wish cast for a deep-pocketed-Daddy to save us.

    I have been thinking of ways to grab attention and get out messaging in real life, but coordination online to move the needle is also necessary.  We need coordinated campaigns to get search and algorithms primed to return what WE want.  Hmmmmmmmmm.  But how, in real terms do we make this happpen?

  183. 183.

    Yet Another Haldane

    Thank you for the callback to Emerson, Lake, & Palmer! Now I know what I’ll be listening to on Monday.

  184. 184.

    AM in NC

    @trnc:  Even then it won’t matter unless and until Democrats (and by this I mean every single one of us, in addition to official Party apparatus) makes it crystal clear (as in simple line drawings clear) that REPUBLICANS caused Problem X, and here’s how Democrats will make/have made Problem X better.   Over and over and over again.

    WE need to be crowd-funding billboards that link every GOP policy to the real-world pain people feel.  Or yard signs around issues/GOP criminality year-round that pop up like mushrooms.  Repetition, repetition, repetition. If we can’t reach people online because of siloed info spheres, then let’s meet them in real life.

    This can’t all be in the 3 months before an election. It needs to be constant.

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