Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Let’s delete this post and never speak of this again.

Hot air and ill-informed banter

Republican obstruction dressed up as bipartisanship. Again.

It’s the corruption, stupid.

This country desperately needs a functioning fourth estate.

The words do not have to be perfect.

Let me eat cake. The rest of you could stand to lose some weight, frankly.

Motown is Joe-Town!

Some judge needs to shut this circus down soon.

The arc of history bends toward the same old fuckery.

‘Museums aren’t America’s attic for its racist shit.’

You are either for trump or for democracy. Pick one.

There is no compromise when it comes to body autonomy. You either have it or you don’t.

Not all heroes wear capes.

Republicans don’t want a speaker to lead them; they want a hostage.

Compromise? There is no middle ground between a firefighter and an arsonist.

Nancy smash is sick of your bullshit.

It’s always darkest before the other shoe drops.

Accountability, motherfuckers.

Jesus, Mary, & Joseph how is that election even close?

The current Supreme Court is a dangerous, rogue court.

It looks like winning debates is a black job!

Bad people in a position to do bad things will do bad things because they are bad people. End of story.

You know it’s bad when the Project 2025 people have to create training videos on “How To Be Normal”.

You are here: Home / Open Threads / President Biden Pardons Hunter (You Go, Joe!)

President Biden Pardons Hunter (You Go, Joe!)

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President Biden Pardons Hunter (You Go, Joe!)

Statement below.

I Like the Policy but not the Framing (What Else Is New?)

On The Road - patrick II - 4th of July, Small Indiana Lake 2

Today, I signed a pardon for my son Hunter. From the day I took office, I said I would not interfere with the Justice Department’s decision-making, and I kept my word even as I have watched my son being selectively, and unfairly, prosecuted. Without aggravating factors like use in a crime, multiple purchases, or buying a weapon as a straw purchaser, people are almost never brought to trial on felony charges solely for how they filled out a gun form. Those who were late paying their taxes because of serious addictions, but paid them back subsequently with interest and penalties, are typically given non-criminal resolutions. It is clear that Hunter was treated differently.

The charges in his cases came about only after several of my political opponents in Congress instigated them to attack me and oppose my election. Then, a carefully negotiated plea deal, agreed to by the Department of Justice, unraveled in the court room – with a number of my political opponents in Congress taking credit for bringing political pressure on the process. Had the plea deal held, it would have been a fair, reasonable resolution of Hunter’s cases.

No reasonable person who looks at the facts of Hunter’s cases can reach any other conclusion than Hunter was singled out only because he is my son – and that is wrong. There has been an effort to break Hunter – who has been five and a half years sober, even in the face of unrelenting attacks and selective prosecution. In trying to break Hunter, they’ve tried to break me – and there’s no reason to believe it will stop here. Enough is enough.

For my entire career I have followed a simple principle: just tell the American people the truth. They’ll be fair-minded. Here’s the truth: I believe in the justice system, but as I have wrestled with this, I also believe raw politics has infected this process and it led to a miscarriage of justice – and once I made this decision this weekend, there was no sense in delaying it further. I hope Americans will understand why a father and a President would come to this decision.
###

Executive Grant of Clemency
Joseph R. Biden, Jr.
President of the United States of America

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2024/12/01/statement-from-president-joe-biden-11/

h/t Jackie

Reader Interactions

254Comments

  4. 4.

    Mathguy

    Now do everyone involved in prosecuting the shitgibbon, because we know he’ll go after them.

  5. 5.

    different-church-lady

    Reposted from downstairs:

    Recently I had been thinking about this possibility.

    Obviously the morally rigid thing to do would be to stay out of the matter. And given a Harris victory I believe Joe would have let things lay.

    But — and don’t need to explain to this group that it’s no exaggeration — we are now faced with a quazi-going-on-full fascist administration, lead by a president-elect who has made no secret of his desire to use his power as a tool of capricious retribution. Additionally, that same president-elect and the party that supports him have shown no compunction whatsoever.

    Given that reality, I can imagine the calculation is that Hunter Biden will not be given any fair justice in his punishment, and the decision lies between erring on the side of unfair leniency versus the danger of increased unjust persecution, with no ground in between.

    Or, to put it more concisely: Trump is the one who smashed up all the rules. We’re just playing on the same court.​

  10. 10.

    jame

    So happy to get this news!

    I do wish Joe Biden would use that immunity the Supreme Court gave the President more and more often.

  13. 13.

    Shakti

    🙃 🤷🏾

    On one hand this shouldn’t have happened. OTOH, Hunter shouldn’t have had the book thrown at him and been revenge porned by various Republicans. And Trump is literally appointing people who’ve been accused of violent crimes and nasty crimes and egregious white collar crimes and paid off others to hide them,  so YOLO Joe Biden!

  18. 18.

    leeleeFL

    This is what I hoped Joe would do!  tRump will use the Justice Dept. in hideous ways, so this pardon is the right thing to do.

    Now, he should pardon Leonard Peltier.  Just because he can and I’ve hoped a President would, so the man would not die in prison.  Let him walk as a free man for whatever years he may have left!  The damage this Nation has done to Native Americans is as great a stain and sin as slavery.  This is one way to try to make things better.

  20. 20.

    Andrya

    Absolutely the right thing to do.

    About 20 years ago, my mentally ill uncle bought a gun, saying on the form that he had no mental disorder.  He actually brandished it at my mom (his sister) although he did not point it at anyone.  The local police simply took away his gun, told him don’t buy another, and informed the local gun stores not to sell him another gun.  There was no thought of prosecution.  Hunter Biden was singled out for outrageous over-prosecution just because he was Biden’s son.  Likewise with the tax stuff.

  21. 21.

    lollipopguild

    Biden should pardon everyone who worked in the Federal Govt. while he was president because trumpy’s flying monkeys are going to charge everyone with TREASON.

  23. 23.

    artem1s

    I’m sad it had to be done but I’m glad he allowed himself to do it. I can’t imagine he did capriciously. I’m sure he had good reason to believe Hunter wouldn’t live thru it if he’d gone to prison. I have no doubt that every one of the J6 prosecutions will be overturned or pardoned now.

    Fuck Gerald Ford for pardoning Nixon. It’s tainted the whole purpose of it and no one who’s used it afterward can be free of the stink of it now.

  25. 25.

    K-Mo

    I think it’s the right thing to do under the circumstances.   I would *not* however give him an ambassadorship, that’s just too much.  A hug, yes.

  26. 26.

    Jackie

    @Baud:

    He saved Hunter’s life.

    I believe that, 100%.

    Joe couldn’t save Beau’s life, but he could save Hunter’s. And he did.

  27. 27.

    Starfish (she/her)

    Lol, reddit: Shoutout Joey B for waiting until after Thanksgiving so no one has to listen to their deranged relatives about this!

  28. 28.

    eclare

    Great statement.  I am so relieved for Hunter, Joe, and the whole family.  Republicans wanted a scalp.

  29. 29.

    Jackie

    @Raoul Paste:

    Now do Jack Smith, if that legally makes sense.

    And all who are connected to the J6 Committee – including wittiness’s who testified.

    Preemptive pardons, if legally possible. Nixon-like?

  33. 33.

    Chris

    @different-church-lady:

    Honestly, for me it’s like… I’m sorry, but the people of this country have spent the last fifty fucking years proving again and again that they could not possibly give less of a fuck about the appearance of corruption, let alone the reality of it.  I’m tired of Democrats being expected to go above and beyond in demonstrating their lily-white purity and never getting anything for it.

    This is Biden using the power of the presidential pardon to forgive someone who’s been unfairly fucked by the system.  It’s exactly what proponents of the presidential pardon say we need it for, and if anyone thinks it doesn’t look clean, fuck ’em.

  35. 35.

    [email protected]

    ABC broke into whatever my mother was watching to make the breaking news announcement. The anchor talked to Dan Abrams. He went on and on about how some parts of the pardon were justified and other parts were not. It’s weird, I don’t recall breaking news analysis and agonizing when Trump pardoned a whole bunch of guilty flaming assholes and flea dip worthy criminals. Who would ever guess?  Also, you go Joe!!

  39. 39.

    banditqueen

    I guess kash patel will just have to “investigate” the rest of the Biden family since he can’t go after Hunter now.

  43. 43.

    leeleeFL

    Any attorneys know what the rules are about pre-emptive pardons?  Nixon did get one, yes?  Just delicious if Joe blanket pardons everybody who tried to make tRump face justice!  It would piss him off so much, I could almost live on that for a few months!

  47. 47.

    oldgold

    I have mixed thoughts on this.

    And, after the news storm that will follow this pardon passes, I fervently pray I never hear another damn word about Hunter.

  50. 50.

    p.a.

    Excellent, Joe.  Now do a Nixon & sick the IRS on Scammy Sammy & Campground Clarence.  Show Dems can play Calvinball too.

  51. 51.

    Almost Retired

    Just saw Never Trumper Joe Walsh bloviating about the betrayal and Biden’s lies and the Trump-like disregard of laws.  I laughed out loud. Proof positive that the Never Trumpers were allies of convenience, but we can now be done with them.  Assholes.

  52. 52.

    Tazj

    I’m happy Joe Biden pardoned Hunter. When the prosecution took back the plea deal back, I think it was political. For all those people saying this is bad, and there are some (governor Polis), it’s not going to gain them any brownie points or have any effect on Republicans. Spare me the moral outrage.

  55. 55.

    WaterGirl

    @Baud:

    “Way to go, Joe!” Says Rep Jasmine Crockett about the pardon of Hunter Biden. “We have a 34 count convicted felon that’s about to walk into the WH. So for anyone who wants to clutch their pearls now, I would say take a look in the FUCKING mirror.”

    She left out a word.

  60. 60.

    JWR

    And we were somehow expected to expect that David Weiss was just another straight shootin’ USA when he was chosen to continue his vendetta case against Hunter. (Thanks, Merrick!)

  63. 63.

    TheOtherHank

    Didn’t GHW Bush preemptively pardon a whole bunch of people involved with Iran Contra?

  67. 67.

    Nukular Biskits

    @narya:

    Yeah. I follow Tom on Bluesky and, on a lot of issues, I agree with him.

    He’s off the rails on this (Biden’s pardon of Hunter), though.  He’s arguing that Biden should have stood on principle, that Biden has undercut any future attack on Trump, yada yada yada.

  68. 68.

    different-church-lady

    @Nukular Biskits:

    He’s arguing that Biden should have stood on principle

    In a perfect world, yes.

    I think it’s pretty clear at this point we’re trying to survive in a rather un-fucking-perfect world.

  71. 71.

    Suzanne

    @Leto: Mr. Suzanne should have had his forgiven under the first TFG admin, because he met all the conditions for the Public Service Loan Forgiveness program (he has taught in Title 1 schools for a over a decade). That one predates both Biden and TFG, actually….. but TFG famously ran that program so fucken badly that very few people were getting approved. Biden made it a priority to fix it.

    I switched from REPAYE to SAVE on mine. We’ll see what happens to SAVE.

  72. 72.

    eclare

    @Nukular Biskits:

    That is bullshit for a number of reasons.  Number one, Joe was supposed to sacrifice his remaining living son to Republicans?

    Number two, nothing sticks to TCFG, and he can’t run again anyway, so how does this impact any attack on him?

    Tom can breathe into a paper bag and STFU.

  74. 74.

    Jackie

    @Chris:

    This is Biden using the power of the presidential pardon to forgive someone who’s been unfairly fucked by the system.

    Yes! I believe Biden would have pardoned Hunter for that reason, even had Hunter not been his son.

    Altho, we all know Hunter wouldn’t have been prosecuted if his  father wasn’t President Joe Biden.

  75. 75.

    geg6

    @Nukular Biskits:

    Yeah, because always playing by the Village “rules” has worked out so well for Democrats over the last forty or so years.  Fuck ‘em.  Time to play hardball, just like the GOP has done.  I’m thrilled that Joe did this and so should every right thinking person be happy.  Fuck Tom Nichols.

  78. 78.

    Nukular Biskits

    @eclare:

    @zhena gogolia:

    @different-church-lady:

    As I put in my response to Tom, had Harris won the election, I feel confident Biden would have let the legal process run its course, even  if he felt his son was unfairly targeted.

    With Trump winning and nominating people like Kash Patel to the highest levels of law enforcement AND threatening to use the full power of the federal gov’t to go after his political enemies, real and imagined, I think Biden had a “come to Jesus” moment.

  79. 79.

    tobie

    Good on Joe, Hunter was targeted by Republicans. They perverted the judicial system, not Joe Biden. The Republican base also has no leg to stand on. They voted for a convicted felon, thereby ‘pardoning’ him. Maybe they should have thought about that during the Republican primary.

  80. 80.

    different-church-lady

    Josh Marshall:

    Over the past couple weeks the thought of President Biden pardoning his son entered my head a few times. I tossed it around: good or bad idea? I could see it both ways. I still can. But I am fine with his decision. I’m glad he did it. Biden learned the right lesson: no one gives a fuck about norms.​

  82. 82.

    mvr

    @Nukular Biskits: He’s arguing that Biden should have stood on principle, that Biden has undercut any future attack on Trump,

    Trump has made clear that vendetta is the name of his game. Pardons of anyone in the cross hairs of that are not just fair game but morally required. And I’m hoping pardons and/or commutations will be extended to Leonard Peltier (and other Native American activists who may still be imprisoned, though I’m not up on whether many are at this point), the folks on death row, most people in for drug crimes and previously convicted for drug crimes, and anyone else basically harmless and likely to piss Trump off.

  83. 83.

    Leto

    @different-church-lady: this. As Chris said above at 33, Dems constantly going beyond the pale to demonstrate our purity has gotten us fuck all. We’re sending a convicted felon back to the highest office in the land. Half his appointments are sex predators, the other half have some type of criminal charge against them as well. If they can’t shut the fuck up, and ofc they can’t, then just register your disagreement with it and move the fuck along.

  84. 84.

    dc

    Good for Joe. I didn’t think he would do it as he is such an institutionalist. Good for him, and he is right, Hunter got the reverse nepotism effect for being Biden’s son. Fuck the asshole Repubs and the media that will misrepresent this decision.

  85. 85.

    Jackie

    @Leto:

    Blizzard bowl happening with Bills v Niners for the Sunday Night football game. Should be fun.

    It’s entertaining! GOOO BUFFALO! 💙♥️

  87. 87.

    hitchhiker

    @Nukular Biskits: It’s the same old shit. Democrats must be as pure as the snow currently falling in Buffalo, or else Republicans will just do whatever they want and blame Democrats.

    The bold part of that sentence is the true part. And I think it means that Democrats can safely ignore their nonsense, do the right thing, and brag about it.

    Tom Nichols keeps pretending we’re living in the 90s, when the concept of “political cost” was still a going thing.

  89. 89.

    Leto

    @Suzanne: I hope both you guys get relief. I remember the Public Service Loan Forgiveness program fiasco, with Betsy Fucking Devoss fucking up that program along with the rest of the Dept of Education. There are people whose loans were forgiven, under Biden, and some of those loan companies have sent out letters to former payers saying, that’s been canceled, you need to start paying again.

    I told Avalune I’d laugh them out of this fucking universe if they tried that with us.

  92. 92.

    lowtechcyclist

    @lollipopguild: ​
     

    Biden should pardon everyone who worked in the Federal Govt. while he was president because trumpy’s flying monkeys are going to charge everyone with TREASON.

    Not exactly, but close enough for, um, government work. They probably won’t charge that many Federal employees, but it’s unpredictable who they might charge and for what. They’ll find ways to charge enough of them to make everyone else afraid and looking for safer careers.

    So I totally agree that Biden should give a blanket pardon to every last person employed by the Federal government at any time between January 20, 2021 and January 20, 2025 for any Federal crimes they may have committed during that interval in their capacity as Federal employees.

  93. 93.

    Nukular Biskits

    @hitchhiker:

    I’m really baffled at Nichols’ insistence that Biden pardoning his son will  somehow “unshackle” Trump and give him license to run roughshod over the Constitution, norms, precedents, etc.

    I almost like a switch got turned on/off or something.

  96. 96.

    dc

    @Nukular Biskits: The Grifter Racist Asshole doesn’t need anyone’s permission, he’ll do as he pleases, fuck norms, that should be obvious to anyone who was sentient from 2016 forward.

  97. 97.

    different-church-lady

    @dc:

    The Grifter Racist Asshole doesn’t need anyone’s permission

    Signed: The Roberts Court.

  98. 98.

    pat

    I would have been terribly disappointed if he hadn’t.

    Look at the creeps and criminals that will be running our government into the ground in the next four years.  Joe did the right thing for the right reasons.

  100. 100.

    Leto

    @dc: this. Even when it’s black letter law, he doesn’t give a shit, and the courts have backed him up on that.

  102. 102.

    RaflW

    I’m glad Joe did this. Sure there’s gonna be a ton of tut-tutting from the (idiot) pundit class, but I have no doubt that the next Admin was gonna put the screws to Hunter purely for a combo of malicious pain-inflicting and to bang the (bullshit) Joe Biden is corrupt garbage.

    I also agree with Chris Geidner at LawDork and these Members of Congress that Biden needs to use that pardon pen on a lot of ordinary folks who’ve also been subject to overzealous and targeted prosecutions.

  109. 109.

    Sure Lurkalot

    @Leto:

    Dems constantly going beyond the pale to demonstrate our purity has gotten us fuck all.

    4 years of a president flouting  ‘rules” and “norms” and breaking laws, a legal system that could not hold him to account because “process”, I for one can’t give a rat’s ass about how Biden’s pardon of his son looks to fuckwads like Tom Nichols, who’s probably booking several appearances on MSNBC and CNN right now so he can monetize wagging his finger and stroking his chin.

  110. 110.

    WaterGirl

    @dc: I really like that Joe said out loud that they were trying to break Hunter and get him to go back to drugs.

    Is there anything more evil than that?

  111. 111.

    lowtechcyclist

    @Nukular Biskits:

    He’s arguing that Biden should have stood on principle, that Biden has undercut any future attack on Trump, yada yada yada.

    Yeah sure, sacrifice your son over a principle that damn near nobody cares about in the first place.  Makes sense to me, Tom.

  112. 112.

    K-Mo

    i keep thinking, hasn’t every president issued a bunch of sketchy pardons in the last days of their presidencies?  Thing that read as political favors?

  116. 116.

    RaflW

    KInda like this thinking, though it’s also just a joke (I assume). And France wouldn’t find it very amusing.

    Dan Savage‬ ‪@dansavage.bsky.social‬

    Joe should make Hunter ambassador to France for the next two months just to fuck with them.

    It does reenforce that Trump is no stranger to pardoning family members.

  125. 125.

    lowtechcyclist

    @Leto:

    if you think about it in biblical terms, this was Biden’s Abraham moment.

    Not only was I thinking about it like that, I was trying to fit a comment into the format of the opening verse of Dylan’s “Highway 61,” but it wasn’t really coming together.

    Except Biden realized, like Dorothy, he had the power all along…

    And thank goodness he had the good sense to use it.

  126. 126.

    TheflipPsyd

    What is really ticking me off about Tom Nichols is he talks about how this goes against “the rule of law.” The rule of law gives the president power to pardon. Biden did something within his power. If you don’t like it, then change the rule that gives the president the power to pardon. Biden pardoning his son did not break the letter of the law OR the spirit of the law. Because the president’s pardon power is supposed to be used in cases of unjust prosecution or punishment

    I am so glad that the father in Biden came through for his son. And spoke the truth. The time for plain speaking is here. It was a politicized prosecution. And Trump is out for revenge. And will go after his opposition with all the presidential powers he can.

  128. 128.

    RaflW

    @Nukular Biskits: Nichols is alright some times. But he’s still very much a Republican though of course not a Trumper at all. His desire to hang on to the vestiges of norms is to be expected, and is also just kind of a sad reminder that he has about five fellows like him in all of conservatism.

    That said I cannot see any rational way to argue that Trump is just going to do whatever the f-k he wants to with no restraints, and this pardon changes nothing about that

    eta: @TheflipPsyd: Ugh. What claptrap. I suppose Tom got all “Ah mah gherd, Bill Clinton shattered the rule of law when he pardoned his half-brother Roger.” Whatevs, Tom.

  129. 129.

    caphilldcne

    I’m glad Joe pardoned Hunter. There are tens of thousands of pardon petitions in front of him. He should pardon them all. Certainly commutations, especially if unjust and lengthy drug sentences.

  131. 131.

    mvr

    @zhena gogolia: Actually Susan McDougal is a good parallel insofar as she too got in trouble for being a friend of a D president the Republicans were trying to make trouble for.

  132. 132.

    eemom

    Can’t believe y’all are wasting pixels on what tom nichols or any other piece of shit media shithack has to say about the first good news we’ve had since Nov. 5 or will have until God know when.

    Oh well. This is after all the blog that was once obsessed with andrew sullivan.

  133. 133.

    dc

    @RaflW: Did he call for Reagan and cía to all be impeached and removed from office for breaking the law and our fucking norms by not abiding by legislation passed by Congress?

  134. 134.

    eemom

    wrt preemptive pardons: can he do that for all those poor undocumented people about to be deported incarcerated in private prisons and made into de facto slaves?

  135. 135.

    Ramona

    He should pardon all the undocumented workers preemptively! They’d have to litigate whether or not he can and meanwhile that will delay them.

  136. 136.

    Jackie

    What do the J6 insurrectionists have to do with Hunter?

    “Does the Pardon given by Joe to Hunter include the J-6 Hostages, who have now been imprisoned for years?” Trump asked Sunday. “Such an abuse and miscarriage of Justice!”

    https://www.rawstory.com/trump-biden-pardon-response/

    Nothing, of course! (I see his girlfriend, Loomer, is getting more vocally opinionated again.)

  137. 137.

    RevRick

    I’m fully on board with President Biden pardoning Hunter. People change their minds all the time and he decided that saving his son’s life was more important than keeping promises to erstwhile DC power brokers. As a dad, I can feel that choice in my bones.

    In other news, I was today’s years old when I learned that the root derivatives of the Hebrew word for hope are the words for wait and rope! In other words, hope is found in the tension between what is and what we desire to be.
    Wait and rope.
    Imagine holding a rope between your two hands and pulling it taut. What for you is the tension you’re experiencing between what now is and what you desire to be?

  138. 138.

    Argiope

    Anyone who has broken the Comstock Act (fully legally under Biden) may need a preemptive pardon.  All the clinicians prescribing telehealth abortions.

  139. 139.

    Butter Emails!!!

    @lowtechcyclist:

    Yeah sure, sacrifice your son over a principle that damn near nobody cares about in the first place.  Makes sense to me, Tom.

    I’m not sure what the principle is exactly. That we should honor the outcome of a politically motivated prosecutions? There’s a good chance that many people are going to face prison time on trumped up charges over the next few years. If Nichols ends up in prison for tearing the tags off a matching sofa and loveseat, is he saying that he doesn’t want a pardon should a Democrat become President?

  145. 145.

    Madeleine

    I’ve only skimmed comments, so someone may already have mentioned this. Emptywheel has a list of reasons justifying the pardon. (Sorry. i’m an idiot who doesn’t know how to link.)

  146. 146.

    Gloria DryGarden

     

    @RevRick: fascinating.

    Robert Fritz writes in “the path of least resistance”, of a tension model between where you are now, and where you want to be.

    Similar.

    Wait and hope are the same word in Spanish. This rope at the root of the Hebrew adds an interesting tangibility

  149. 149.

    Gloria DryGarden

    I feel a sense of peace, of something coming down right, when I read Joe Biden’s statement about pardoning his son.

  153. 153.

    Jackie

    @Gloria DryGarden: Yes. I’m fully breathing; inhaling and exhaling completely without needing to remind myself to do so since the election.

    I feel a burden has lifted off me. At least for tonight.

  155. 155.

    Bupalos

     

    @Tazj: I’m a bit surprised at the unanimously positive opinion here. Though I think there’s a strong “democracy is over anyway so nothing matters” kind of vibe, there’s just no political or democratic upside here I can see, and as well as Biden states the case, it will do damage.
    This is the pardon being deployed unethically. There is an injustice here, but a fairly minor one that could only conceivably draw a presidential pardon through this kind of close connection.

    And Hunter’s conviction really isn’t that much further outside of prosecutorial norms than Trump’s. Both are things that only would come to light or be pursued because of the visibility or celebrity which both men traded on, as well as having made enemies in politics.
    I feel for Joe’s position personally, and maybe there’s no good answer here. But not something to celebrate, more of a sad reminder of the position we’re in and direction we’re headed.

  156. 156.

    Jay

    @WaterGirl:

    Because Dolt47 and the 2025 Crew won’t care if it was legal or not, at the time, or even if it is still legal.

    Dolt47 and his cronies have lengthy histories of using “lawfare” against opponents.

    Now they have the DOJ, the FBI and of course, the White Supremacist Court.

  157. 157.

    karen marie

    @Starfish (she/her): Not only after Thanksgiving but after fucking Trump nominated a fucking felon he pardoned – Kushner pere – for fucking ambassador to France.

    I hope the French government declines to recognize Kushner as ambassador and forces him to withdraw.

  158. 158.

    Martin

    So, Joe has given into the idea that democratic institutions are failing. The impartial enforcement of the rule of law cannot be relied on. That’s not a great step. Democrats can no longer operate as though democratic institutions are impartially going to spit out justice – and the ones we’ve elected don’t strike me as great for the job of running them politically.

  160. 160.

    different-church-lady

    It is becoming increasingly hard to restrain myself from calling certain commenters complete idiots.​

  161. 161.

    RaflW

    Nevermind. No troll feed to dispense.

    But if one were to wonder where the break was in the rule of law, it’d be Ford’s pardon of Nixon.

  165. 165.

    mvr

    @WaterGirl: Because it isn’t clear the Supreme Court or lower courts will rule that it was legal under Biden.  And even if they do it will save a number of people a lot of trouble if they don’t have to litigate it.

    I guess though that this is something that one should wait until the last day to do, so that it covers all of his term.

  167. 167.

    Bupalos

    @Martin: I hear you. I can certainly understand Biden doing this as a father. But there’s a huge tension here and this really is a bigger step (even in its symbolism) than I expected to see from him in bowing to democratic decline.

  170. 170.

    PJ

    Is it a coincidence that the people who think this “norms violation” will do terrible damage to democracy were the same people who were glad to see Biden, who was the Democratic candidate selected by Democratic voters, forced out of the race?

  171. 171.

    Chris

    @Andrya:

    Hunter Biden was singled out for outrageous over-prosecution just because he was Biden’s son.  Likewise with the tax stuff.

    I don’t think people even in the most liberal environments ever really reckoned with how bad a sign the Biden prosecution was.

    What Biden was subjected to is the kind of prosecutorial abuse that’s already outrageous when it’s deployed against some homeless guy that the prosecution wants to use to make some sort of “tough on crime” publicity stunt, as happens far too often already.  The fact that it wasn’t, however, done to some homeless guy, but to the son of a President, elevates it from “outrageous” to “terrifying.”  A justice system that’s completely comfortable treating the son of a President in the same way that it does the poorest and least able to defend themselves is more than just the sign of an unjust country.  It’s the kind of thing you see in a banana republic building up to a coup, where the organs of law and security want to make it absolutely clear that they don’t respect any authority unless it agrees with them.

    It’s the same as the NYPD doxxing the mayor’s kid, but at the highest national level possible.

  175. 175.

    Bupalos

    @different-church-lady: no, the statement is a good and eloquent defense of an action that he’s clearly conflicted about. He understands the stakes and potential damage here. He understands he made a commitment in defense of the justice system which he is now taking back. It’s interesting to see how the internet game-ifies this and is like “haw haw yes we winnn GO HUNTER!”

  176. 176.

    PJ

    This is the tell:

    And Hunter’s conviction really isn’t that much further outside of prosecutorial norms than Trump’s. Both are things that only would come to light or be pursued because of the visibility or celebrity which both men traded on, as well as having made enemies in politics.

    This commenter thinks that Trump was prosecuted for trying to overthrow the government on 1/6/21, for absconding with (and lying about retaining) national security documents that foreign agents had access to, for trying to extort the President of Ukraine into lying about an investigation into his political rival, and for falsifying business records about campaign payments to hush up a sex scandal, only because he was a celebrity and made political enemies. Poor little Donnie Trump was unfairly prosecuted for these run of the mill activities.

    Yes, it may be unfortunate that Hunter was denied a plea bargain (previously agreed to by prosecution) for lying on a gun purchase form and for not timely paying his taxes (which he paid, with penalties, in full), but, after all, both sides do it! What Trump did was no worse than that. And, after all, if we abandon norms to pardon Hunter, then, heavens to Betsy, think of whom Trump might pardon?!!

  177. 177.

    Martin

    @Jay: The motives behind Biden the institutionalist declaring institutionalism is dead doesn’t matter – the result is the same.

    I look at guys like Adam Schiff and wonder how they’re going to function in this new reality.

  178. 178.

    Timill

    @Chris: But they ought all to be equal before the law; as W. S. Gilbert puts it:

    Giuseppe:
    The Lord High Bishop orthodox —
    The Lord High Coachman on the box —
    Marco:
    The Lord High Vagabond in the stocks —
    They all shall equal be!

    But in this case they aren’t – Hunter was prosecuted where no-one else would be.

  181. 181.

    PJ

    @Martin: Biden pardoning his son will make no impact whatsoever on the new reality that Schiff, and all of us, will face because of Trump’s election. (And maybe Schiff should have thought of this before he called for the guy who beat Trump before to drop out of the race.)

  182. 182.

    Chris

    @different-church-lady:

    @RaflW: France would probably love it.

    In my experience, the French are a pathologically cynical people, who firmly believe in the principle that all politicians are corrupt, some of them just haven’t been caught yet.  They definitely would not be offended.

  183. 183.

    Bupalos

    @PJ: no you didn’t read I said his CONVICTION which is the falsified business records case that really was pretty novel and almost certainly would not have been pursued without Trump being Trump and having political enemies.
    That’s the prosecution and conviction this will be compared to. And they aren’t equivalent, but in political terms and thus in therms of democratic fallout, they are similar.

    We disagree, but leave some space  for those of us not yet in the “democracy is over anyway so who cares” club.

  184. 184.

    hitchhiker

    @PJ: thanks.

    the comment you’re responding to took my breath so thoroughly away that I was unable to do more than gasp.

  185. 185.

    Martin

    @Bupalos: Yeah, this is a kind of conceding defeat by him. Like, I get why he did it, and don’t fault him, but I wonder if Democrats had recognized this reality 4 (or 8) years ago and embraced a partisan governance how this might have worked out differently, though I get the sense a lot of mainline Democrats would have been outraged. Maybe it would have been worse. But that’s the path we’re on now and we’re going to have to figure it out and how to win.

  190. 190.

    different-church-lady

    @Martin:

    I look at guys like Adam Schiff and wonder how they’re going to function in this new reality.

    How is anybody going to?

  193. 193.

    different-church-lady

    @Martin: i used the plural in a thin attempt to disguise my singular grudge.

    i ain’t thrilled it’s come to this either. But I ain’t gonna be an outright dope about it.

  196. 196.

    Jay

    @Chris:

    The French will object and obstruct, because at this point in time and for the past several years they have needed the US Ambassador to be a Diplomat, not a slumlord, nepo hire and shady businessman.

    If they do accept him, they will just marginalize him and leave him alone to frolic with prostitutes.

  197. 197.

    different-church-lady

    @Jay:

    they will just marginalize him and leave him alone to frolic with prostitutes.

    Isn’t that the whole reason he wants the job in the first place?

  198. 198.

    Aussie Sheila

    @Bupalos:

    On the contrary, the expectations that double standards of behaviour between Dems and the GOP should be expected without compliant from the broad centre left has worked to undermine proper democratic accountability in the US.

    I’m glad Biden did what he did, and it bears no relation at all to the string of corrupt and simply gross pardons issued by trump last time, and the ones he’ll doubtless issue in the next four years.

    The time for cheek turning should be well and truly over. Political hardball is all the US right understands. It needs to start the FO out phase of the last 30 years of effing around.

  199. 199.

    Bupalos

    @PJ:

    I can’t read that article. Of course falsifying business records in furtherance of another crime is common and commonly pursued. The other crime being a non-felony campaign finance violation is pretty unique. It’s a felony prosecution for coverup of a non-felony crime, which…you aren’t going to find 9800 of those. Are there any? I don’t know, but I think it would be very very rare.

    Which isn’t to argue against his convinction. It just creates some political similarity which is where the democratic risk comes in.

  201. 201.

    Ramona

     

    @Princess: Amnesty is what occurred to me as soon as I edited my post to correct typos. Do you remember if the Reagan amnesty in the eighties was an executive order or a Congressional Act?

  202. 202.

    Bupalos

    @geg6: for money laundering or furtherance of the drug trade… coverups of things that were felonies.

    This was not that. Though I’d be interested in any cites of business records felony case with no other felonious activity involved. There probably is some I’d guess, but I can’t think of what it would be.

  203. 203.

    Ramona

    @Martin:

    So, Joe has given into the idea that democratic institutions are failing. The impartial enforcement of the rule of law cannot be relied on.

    Well, that is a fact right now, isn’t it?

  205. 205.

    Fake Irishman

    @Martin:

    How does this president using a power explicitly outlined in the Constitution represent a failure of democratic institutions? Unless you think Democratic institutions failed in 1974 or 1992….

    also, wrt Bupalos’ comment: what sort of political damage is this going to do? One year from now, no one is going to care about Hunter Biden.

  207. 207.

    eemom

    @Martin:

    mild, non-personal criticism of the most powerful man in the world.

    At this particular moment in history, those “criticisms” by you and a certain other on this thread smack of the privileged detachment enjoyed by those who personally will be just fine no matter what horror trump wreaks on this country.

    Maybe you’re not really in that position, I have no idea. Sure sounds like it though.

  208. 208.

    Martin

    @Jay: I’m not the one needing to be told, it’s the Democrats like Biden who have been upholding norms since Obama (at the very least) walked into the office. Elected Democrats are the ones who have been telling us the norms matter, and need to be abided by. Biden, violating a pretty huge norm of pardoning his own kid, and not having done it sooner (it’s not like anything in Hunters case has changed recently) tells us something has changed. If Harris had won, do you think we’d see a pardon? I don’t. This is an expression that the institutions won’t hold against Trump. (And yes, I think Kash Patel floated as FBI director is the catalyst here).

    I’ve been arguing for some time that Dems need to stop upholding the norms, usually getting shouted down by a lot of people here. Now Biden is conceding the reality. I wish I was more confident that Dems would be good at it – it’s a big shift in philosophy.

  209. 209.

    Martin

    @Bupalos: The argument that Trump’s prosecution was malicious would be a LOT stronger if his CFO wasn’t at Rikers for the exact same crime.

  211. 211.

    Ksmiami

    @Ramona: I’m looking forward to creating a new and improved democratic government after Trump. Our system needs a desperate redesign

  212. 212.

    Martin

    @Fake Irishman: Democrats are the ones that have been saying that the faith in the impartiality of government and elected officials is critical. That’s why Dems follow norms that Republicans don’t – because Republicans often don’t believe that – they believe in skepticism (to be charitable) in government.

    Biden doing this is giving up the game, giving up on the spirit of the law. And while it’s by no means some kind of formal proclamation – observe the response here. If Biden has thrown in the towel, mainline Democratic voters will signal that shift. Just look at these comments.

    I suspect that just as I said when the GOP refused to hear the Garland confirmation back in 2016, that Obama should seat him anyway and force the fight (which was not well received here), that would be better received now. Democrats don’t like the idea of fighting dirty.

  214. 214.

    Yutsano

    @Yutsano: ​
    THAT stop YOU before. Stupid edit window closed on me.

    Also: if any of y’all got some new BlueSky follows, the one with the yellow pony with the Mariners cap was me.

  215. 215.

    Gloria DryGarden

    @PJ: aren’t there orders of magnitude, or classes of how major or damaging a felony is?
    because while mr liar insists other do it too, or do worse, and proclaims his innocence, the crap he’s been in trouble for is massively worse than for example the crimes that Hunter did, which usually ar3nt worth prosecuting…

  217. 217.

    Kayla Rudbek

    @Leto: I had my student loan forgiven (10+ years of government work) and I’m wondering if those Rethuglican bastards will undo the forgiveness and reinstate the loan again.

  219. 219.

    Martin

    @eemom: Oh, no, I absolutely am. But, and I’m not trying to be mean here, but the Biden defenders come off as parasocial stans that care more about Biden’s legacy than the future of this country.

    You call me privileged, but I don’t care about Biden’s personal feelings or his legacy. He’s the biggest fucking boy in the world, so much so that if he’s taken down unfairly, tough shit. We pay our leaders a lot so that they can be sacrificed for the greater good.

    But when was clear that voters were unhappy with Biden – be it his age, policies, or whatever, then fucking throw him overboard. Because if you want to protect people from Trump, that’s what you need to do. But instead we got defenses of him. He’s the greatest president of our lifetime! Ok. It’s great if you feel that way – invite him over for dinner, but voters are SUPER clear that they disagree with you, and they matter, because they get to decide. Harris being unable to break with Biden, in part because she was part of the administration and would have to explain why she didn’t speak up, and in part because we had this ongoing hagiography signaling that Dems didn’t want that. Well, that really reduced the space that Harris could campaign in.

    To be clear, I’m not trying to blame this loss on Biden or Harris. I think by and large most Democrats (myself included) just fucked this up. We dismissed the things people were saying. We were unwilling to demand boldness at a time when boldness was needed. Maybe Biden would have responded to that – I’m not sure.

    And unlike most people opining here on the election, I don’t think Harris lost due to voters turning right (by all accounts they still prefer progressive policies much more than Trumps) or due to racism or misogyny (though I recognize those are there, but I think Biden would have lost by MUCH more) but because Democrats weren’t willing to go beyond technocratic change and embrace big, sweeping economic changes and take up the fight (dirty if needed) to get those changes. That’s not just on Biden and Harris but on all of us.

    I think the difference is that some of us wanted to win, and some of us wanted Biden to win. Biden winning would have been nice but that ship sailed a while ago. Personally, I thought it sailed when Dobbs came down and we should have had a proper primary so voters could inform the Democratic Party what we wanted. That communication never happened. We protected our presumptive nominee instead of interacting with voters, and that lack of interaction killed us.

  220. 220.

    The Thin Black Duke

    The fact that some idiots are going to be more pissed off about Biden saving his son’s life than the freaks Trump is picking for his administration tells you that something is terribly wrong in the United States.

  221. 221.

    Martin

    @Ksmiami: I think this is the optimistic view here. That Trump breaks a bunch of shit, a lot of people get hurt, Democrats win in ’26 and ’28 and we pick people who can reimagine the stuff that Trump broke and rebuild it.

    That is the cycle in a lot of institutions. The incumbents are unwilling to reform because the effects of change are uncertain; someone comes in and breaks all the china; now broken, the reform becomes easy. That’s what Covid did without malice in a lot of places. Trump may do with malice the thing that Democrats struggle with.

    I’ve argued that Democrats should consider sending key things the feds do back to states that would force red states to grapple with funding issues that they currently don’t need to. Red states get enormous amounts of federal funding for poor communities. Blue states usually pay for that funding. Cut it off entirely. Tolerate the elimination of the department of education, because fewer people will get hurt if it’s eliminated than if it’s weaponized. The blue states will find mechanisms to fund their schools, and the red states will have to figure out how to raise taxes to fund theirs and have a whole debate about taxation being good, and why the fuck did it just get so expensive to fund schools now that the blue state subsidies are gone. Either way, people will be hurt, but one way forces voters to contend with the policy and the other way just results in Democrats screaming ‘that’s not fair’. And one of these is politically better than the other.

    And if republican voters come back and want federal education funding, we can start at zero to decide what that ought to look like. But we’re going to need democrats willing to fight for that, and I’m not certain we have them.

  222. 222.

    Aussie Sheila

    @Martin:

    trump’s and the gop’s  norm breaking has done one thing at least. It has cleared out a lot of misty eyed bs about how things are supposed to work (even if they didn’t in practice), and made it clear how things will work going forward unless the US Centre left grasps the nettle.
    We have a saying here made popular by a 1970s PM (Gough Whitlam). He was faced with an intransigent and vicious opposition when he won in 1972. His philosophy was always ‘crash through or crash’.
    In the end he was crashed, but not before he had instituted far reaching change that still has political import.

    In the  end the Constitution gives both Biden and trump an untrammelled Pardon power. It’s anachronistic and idiotic, but it is what it is.

    The issue is not what Biden did, but what reforms going forward on all issues, are Democratic Party electeds prepared to undertake in the event they win Presidential power in 2028?

    That’s the most useful conversation going forward. The past can’t be changed, but the future can be shaped, and thanks to GOP norm breaking on all fronts, there is more room to manoeuvre.

  224. 224.

    Cathie from Canada

    The Bondi Justice department and the Patel FBI will be sending squads after anyone who “dissed” Dear Leader in the last 8 years — the Bidens, the Clintons, the Harris-Emhoff families, the Obamas, likely also media figures, George Soros, Dr. Fauci, whoever owns Bluesky, and staff in Justice, national archives, the Pentagon, the Supreme Court, the people who run US elections, the National Guard, congressional staff, etc etc.

    If Joe can figure out some way to blanket-pardon all of these people, it would be a service to the nation.

  225. 225.

    Msb

    @WaterGirl:

    I think it was worse. I think they hoped Hunter would relapse and kill himself, which would go a long way towards killing his father.

    And those giving Joe credit for saving Hunter’s life from addiction are wrong. Joe’s steadfast love absolutely helped, but Hunter did that job himself, God bless them both.

  227. 227.

    Bodcaious

    I realize I’m just a lurker, and will probably sustain some pretty angry responses, but I’m with Martin and Bupalos here. Sometimes doing the right thing doesn’t result in the reward that seems like it should have been earned. Of course Joe had the legal right for the pardon; doesn’t make it right. It just doesn’t. I’m living outside the country now, so maybe I’m just on a different wavelength. This looks like the justice system of the US can’t be trusted. Yes, Trump is a bully and an ass. But this just looks like nepotism circumventing the law.

  228. 228.

    sab

    @zhena gogolia: Clinton pardoning Marc Rich wasn’t a political payback. It was doing a favor for Israel. And we’ve seen how that has been mischaracterized ever since.

  229. 229.

    Martin

    @Aussie Sheila: The issue is not what Biden did, but what reforms going forward on all issues, are Democratic Party electeds prepared to undertake in the event they win Presidential power in 2028?

    Apart from a few people, I don’t think Democrats have that kind of political imagination.  To be fair, I don’t think they’ve exercised that kind of imagination. I think Democrats should be doing their own Project 2029, starting now.

    The problem I’ve indicated before is that the scope of the reforms they might face have until now been considered impossible, and therefore, not much thought has been given to them. I think they’re likely also to self-censor their ideas thinking that they wouldn’t be able to get the votes to implement those ideas, but I think they should lay out a vision for what they wish to achieve.

  231. 231.

    eemom

    @The Thin Black Duke:

    The fact that some idiots are going to be more pissed off about Biden saving his son’s life than the freaks Trump is picking for his administration tells you that something is terribly wrong in the United States.

    And, again, with certain pious pontificators on this very blog whose asses are admittedly not on the line.

    @Bodcaious:

    I’m living outside the country now, so maybe I’m just on a different wavelength.

    Yeah, maybe. GFY.

  233. 233.

    Gloria DryGarden

    @Bodcaious: This looks like the justice system of the US can’t be trusted

    correct.
    And that’s what it’s  looking like, increasingly. This is discussed in different ways by different commenters. We’re not imagining things.
    if you have time, read this whole thread.

  234. 234.

    Chris Johnson

    @Bodcaious: Do not care. Hunter would have died in prison, mysteriously. We’re looking down the barrel of complete governmental collapse in various directions and the only thing that’s certain is, put a guy in the clutches of these people and he’s a dead man.

    Do not care. Justice is already dead because the world’s been driven mad, you’re not going to pound the law (or the table) and convince me that the truth isn’t more important. Wake the heck up.

  235. 235.

    Martin

    @eemom: And, again, with certain pious pontificators on this very blog whose asses are admittedly not on the line.

    Given you just called me out in that way, let me clarify a few things:

    1. I’m not angry (nor happy) about Biden pardoning Hunter. I think it’s fine. I mostly don’t give a shit because I have no investment in Joe or Hunter. What matters to me is what it signals regarding Democrats governing philosophy, and how that may have changed.
    2. I’m not angry about Trumps picks because I don’t see a point being angry about it. These are horrible people, as expected. I’m not surprised. I had anticipated these kinds of picks at least a year ago when it was clear Trump was going to run, and whatever anger I had played out then.
    3. I’ve been pretty consistent in preferring less competent people over more competent people. Though I think Gaetz is a bigger piece of shit than Bondi, I think Gaetz would have done less harm because he doesn’t know how to run a large agency and would have spent a lot of time being spun around by defensive civil servants, but Bondi does and won’t fall into that trap. She’s marginally less shitty, but substantially more qualified and likely effective. I would prefer an ineffective pedophile with closets the media would love to rummage through than a boring effective bribe taker. There’s no universe where we avoid a vindictive ass-kisser who will punch down with the force of the federal government. Take what weaknesses you can get.
    4. My focus the last 25 days has been to try and understand all the shit we got wrong. I’m not going to accept answers that 50% of the country are inherently evil. It’s not just useless, it’s lazy and counterproductive. The people of Germany were not inherently evil in the 1930s and then magically became not evil one generation later. There were substantive explanations for what happened there – some combination of real trauma and anxiety combined with lies and exploitation and all that and those are worth understanding. Unless you think we can bomb our way out of this, we’re going to have to politic out of it, and Democrats are fucking lost at sea right now. Feeling sorry for ourselves won’t fix this. Dehumanizing half the country won’t either. Nor will refusing to take stock and be willing to do an honest critique of where the party and our leaders are.
    5. If your ass were truly on the line, you’d be focused on what to do, and not on who to tear down.
  236. 236.

    Betty

    @different-church-lady: I disagree with Josh.The norms were broken when Republicans decided Hunter was fair game as a way to attack Joe. Joe has felt personally responsible for all the crap thrown at Hunter since the attacks began. Time for it to stop.

  238. 238.

    glory b

    @Bupalos: And I read the opposite, that the prosecution is not common, but not unheard of, that there are several every year.

    An example of what Trump did, there was a valuation submitted to tax authorities that the purported signing appraiser said he never did.

    An oldie but a goodie, this was the statute that Leona Helmsley was prosecuted under.

    Most major corporations don’t get caught u in this, most are small operators.

  239. 239.

    glory b

    @Martin: Theres’s lots of reasons Hitler came to power, the Nazi party never got more than 37% of the vote, but he was made chancellor in an effort to appease them.

    The German CITIES were bastions of social progressivism, the rural areas? Not so much (sound familiar?). Calling 50% of American voters evil is too simplistic, but it tells you the things they didn’t think were deal breakers.

    Trump was almost at the very back of the Republican primary pack until he rode down that escalator & called Mexican immigrants a bunch of rapists & drug dealers. After that, he shot to #1 and stayed there.

    Fact, Democrats haven’t won the majority of the white vote since 1965, after LBJ signed the Civil Rights & Voting rights Acts.

    If you want a great podcast episode about Hitler & how he came to power, listen to “Behind the Bastards, the non Nazis Who Helped Hitler Rise to Power.”

    The episode is from the beginning of Trump’s presidency, at the end, the host states he specifically DID NOT mention modern US politics, but the similarity should horrify you.

  241. 241.

    WaterGirl

    @Martin: I think it’s simply Biden acknowledging that the DOJ will not be the Department of JUSTICE under Trump.

    Beyond being glad for Hunter, I think it’s an important, but unstated, acknowledgement by the outgoing President that there will be no justice at the DOJ.

    Sad, but true.

  243. 243.

    WaterGirl

    @Msb:

    I think it was worse. I think they hoped Hunter would relapse and kill himself, which would go a long way towards killing his father.

    I agree, and I have said similar things in the past, I think.  I just went with a milder version.

  244. 244.

    WaterGirl

    @Bodcaious:

    This looks like the justice system of the US can’t be trusted.

    It looks like that because with the election of Trump, starting on Jan 20, the federal justice system cannot be trusted.

    P.S.  I love it when lurkers comment.  Your opinions are just as valid as anyone else’s.

  245. 245.

    MisterForkbeard

    Good. I’m also seeing some lefty friends of mine get outraged that Hunter was pardoned but that lots of black people and other poor or minority groups aren’t. Different use cases, but I hope Biden goes nuts with pardons in the next couple months, and he does it for groups which normally don’t get pardoned.

    @WaterGirl: I’ve been really frustrated by how Kamala, Biden and other top Dems have basically been treating Trump as a normal president since he was re-elected. I would prefer he be more open about this – “Trump has literally promised to up-end the DOJ to go after his political enemies or companies that have spoken out against his policies, and his appointees are appalling and most are completely unqualified. I really hate to say it, but Americans should be wary of the justice system under Trump until he proves otherwise”

  249. 249.

    LauraInNC

    @Martin: I liken it to my stance on gerrymandering.  As somebody who lives in NC, I hate it with a passion.  But I’m now of the mind that blue states need to step up their game and do it relentlessly until it is outlawed everywhere.

  250. 250.

    LauraInNC

    @MisterForkbeard: Maybe they have to in public.  I hold out hope that they are doing more behind the scenes, but fully admit that this is only a hope, and may be in vain.

  252. 252.

    Bupalos

    @Martin: I can co-sign all of this. The only significant difference I have with pretty much any of your content on here is I think I do see more damage in Dems also “playing dirty.” Which isn’t to say I don’t think we shouldn’t or don’t have to play tit for tat on things like gerrymandering when that’s the reality.

    my biggest problem with Biden’s move here (which like you neither makes me angry nor happy) is that he absolutely inflated this whole issue with a lot of talk about trusting the justice system, which he is now loudly taking back. He’s exposing his previous position as a calculated lie, and it is going to sacrifice political ground we could still occupy. And it’s for a personal connection. It’s unethical and a kind of sell out. And I’d maybe do the same thing in the same position. It’s just a really bad position, and one that Joe only has very partial responsibility for.

  253. 253.

    PJ

    @Bupalos: ​
     

    He’s exposing his previous position as a calculated lie, and it is going to sacrifice political ground we could still occupy. And it’s for a personal connection. It’s unethical and a kind of sell out.

    Changing your mind due to changed circumstances is not a lie. Biden changed his mind because Trump got elected and has selected people like Gaetz and Bondi to head DoJ and Kash Patel to head the FBI. They are being named to go after his enemies, one of whom happens to be Joe Biden, whom they will get at, as they did over the past four years, through Hunter. Hunter is at a real risk for an “accident” happening while he is in custody.

    And there’s nothing unethical about the pardon. Hunter was targeted and prosecuted for political reasons, and it seems like every DA who chimes in says that he would never have been indicted in the first case. He reached plea agreements that were thrown out due to political pressure. He would not be in this position if an injustice had not been done.

    You and Martin wanted Biden pushed out, you got your wish, and Trump won. Now you and Martin are wringing your hands at the consequences, as if this pardon will make any difference in any Republican official’s behavior, let alone Trump’s, or in the minds of any voter. The voters made up their minds last month – norms do not matter. The only value in trying to shame Biden and Democrats for this pardon is just to tear Democrats down.

  254. 254.

    strange visitor (from another planet)

    @Martin: way to both-sides shit coming AND going.

    “democrats are fucking lost at sea right now. feeling sorry for ourselves won’t fix this. dehumanizing half the country won’t either.”

    oh, that’s what we’re doing? we’re all lost at sea and dehumanizing the fucking fascists who are talking about putting us into camps?!?!

    dehumanizing the old soap-and-lampshades crowd. oh clutch my pearls and call me helen lovejoy! “what will we tell the children!”

    wow.

    yeah. fuck that shit. things look really fucking twisted from the top of your ivory fucking tower

    @PJ:  agree 100%.

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