Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

You come for women, you’re gonna get your ass kicked.

Impressively dumb. Congratulations.

Somebody needs to explain to DeSantis that nobody needs to do anything to make him look bad.

Just because you believe it, that doesn’t make it true.

There are some who say that there are too many strawmen arguments on this blog.

Marge, god is saying you’re stupid.

Some judge needs to shut this circus down soon.

If you thought you’d already seen people saying the stupidest things possible on the internet, prepare yourselves.

Putting aside our relentless self-interest because the moral imperative is crystal clear.

I might just take the rest of the day off and do even more nothing than usual.

It’s pointless to bring up problems that can only be solved with a time machine.

“Joe Biden deserved better than he got from some folks in his own party.”

It’s all just conspiracy shit beamed down from the mothership.

Israel is using food as a weapon of war. Unforgivable.

The poor and middle-class pay taxes, the rich pay accountants, the wealthy pay politicians.

If you are still in the gop, you are either an extremist yourself, or in bed with those who are.

Anyone who bans teaching American history has no right to shape America’s future.

They fucked up the fucking up of the fuckup!

The cruelty is the point; the law be damned.

If you tweet it in all caps, that makes it true!

Jack Smith: “Why did you start campaigning in the middle of my investigation?!”

Take hopelessness and turn it into resilience.

Let us savor the impending downfall of lawless scoundrels who richly deserve the trouble barreling their way.

I’d hate to be the candidate who lost to this guy.

You are here: Home / Open Threads / Deny, Defend, Depose

Deny, Defend, Depose

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This post is in: 

The title of this post comes from words that the killer of the United Healthcare CEO wrote on the casings of the bullets used in the killing yesterday morning.  It’s apparently a riff on the three D’s of healthcare insurers:  Delay, Deny, Defend.  At the moment, there’s a massive manhunt going on in New York City, just as there would be for any other murder.

I’ve been interested to read the social media reaction to this killing, which is pretty uniformly sarcastic and/or full of stories about healthcare denial.  There were also a lot of comments about how cops only get energized when capital is at risk.  I thought this piece by Marisa Kabas was a good examination of the reaction to the death of people engaged in massive injustice, and she compares the reaction to CEO Thompson’s death to that of Henry Kissinger:

When I saw the responses to Thompson’s killing start to roll in, it quickly became clear he was someone who many Americans considered to have violated the human contract. […]

In his 2020 book “I You We Them”, British author Dan Getton writes of the “desk killer”: a person who doesn’t carry out direct violence against people, but orchestrates and sanctions it from the comfort of a temperature-controlled office.

“You can find people killing from their desks and their computers in the military, but also in the civil service,” Gretton writes. “They might be in the oil industry, armaments, pharmaceuticals, but you can also find them in finance, insurance, politics or law. They rarely intend to kill, or injure, but their actions, combined with the vast and diffuse reach of government and contemporary corporate power, result in hundreds of thousands of deaths and devastated lives.”

Brian Thompson, with the healthcare of 49 million Americans under his purview, could have been considered a “desk killer.” But does the implicit harm he inflicted by helming a company that routinely denies people access to life-changing medication and procedures (and consequently punishes people for being too poor to pay) excuse his killing? Right away people seemed to be ascribing their own feelings about the healthcare system onto this stranger in the absence of any concrete information about what had actually motivated him to kill. Revenge fantasies danced in their heads before we even knew whether or not revenge was a factor.

She quotes Spencer Ackerman on Kissinger’s violation of the human contract:

[…] But that emerges from our understanding of our humanity, what we owe to one another, the basic respect and dignity in viewing human lives as precious and in viewing them as valuable. And that’s a contract. And there are gonna be some people, like Henry Kissinger, who break that contract at grand scale, and you don’t have to be sad when someone like that dies. You can feel relieved. You don’t want, in general, to be happy when people die. That is not a good way of being that will ultimately hurt you more than it will hurt them. But there are some people whose deaths come as a relief, and sometimes they come as a relief because justice was never served for the acts of such a person. And relief is the closest thing to justice that people will experience.

Anyway, I don’t even know if I feel much at all about this guy’s death.  I know people whose denial of care by United Healthcare led to, shall we say, “poor outcomes”.   Thompson made millions from their suffering.   He was not a good person, and I generally don’t mourn the death of bad people.

Reader Interactions

171Comments

  1. 1.

    Booger

    One of the topics addressed in “Ministry for the Future” by Kim Stanley Robinson. The legal system and justice are not built to address killing on a global scale.

  2. 2.

    raven

    Jim Cavanaugh on MSNBC just said this dude is not any kind of professional assassin and was most likely seeking revenge . He left stuff he wouldn’t have and took the gun which a pro wouldn’t have. He also did not use common practice of how you would have cleared  the gun.

     

    Tap, rack, bang (TRB) or tap, rack, and go (TRG) is jargon for the response to a failure to fire in a firearm with a removable magazine.[1] This is designated as an “Immediate Action” and involves no investigation of the cause (due to being under fire in a combat or defensive situation), but is effective for common failures, such as defective or improperly seated ammunition magazines.[2][3]

     

    repost

  3. 3.

    comrade scotts agenda of rage

    I posted this in the previous thread but it’s more pertinent here:

    If Ted Bundy was shot dead no one would suggest that was a bad thing. But run a company that kills more ppl every day than Ted Bundy ever did, & folks recoil in horror.

    The person posting that ponders the larger question of society’s apparent acceptance of “murder by capitalism”.

  5. 5.

    dm

    I assume the italicized bit is sarcasm:

    At the moment, there’s a massive manhunt going on in New York City, just as there would be for any other murder.

  6. 6.

    RepubAnon

    I worry more about what new laws may be passed allowing, say, CEOs and their bodyguards to shoot anyone they perceive as a threat.

  7. 7.

    WereBear

    @comrade scotts agenda of rage: It’s true.

    People die from drugs and medical procedures and contaminated products and the worst that happens is they get sued and their reputation suffers. But they keep most of the money they made while they knew about the problem. And appeal the judgement.

    It’s the same tactics as medical insurance using tricks and mirrors to take the money and not follow their contractual obligations.

    Everything they crime by is civil — slow and a battle of expensive lawyers.

    I’m an LLC. So can I hire a contract killer and use part of the money to pay a civil fine because it was a business expense?

    Because that’s kind of like organized crime.

  10. 10.

    RandomMonster

    @raven: Jim Cavanaugh on MSNBC just said this dude is not any kind of professional assassin and was most likely seeking revenge

    A professional killer isn’t going to bother filing words into a round or casing. It was clearly revenge.

    As I try to sort out my own feelings here, the “JUMP F***ERS” Wall Street image Cole posts here keeps coming to mind.

  13. 13.

    gwangung

    John Rogers’ (Leverage, 27% rule) Rules of Crime:
    Rule 1: Where there is value, there is crime.
    Rule 2: A fine is a price.
    Rule 3: Nothing ever stops until a Rich White Guy goes to jail.
    Rule 4: There are no Moriartys
    Rule 5: Everyone can be conned.

    Maybe someone’s trying to modify Rule 3.

  14. 14.

    Chris

    “You can find people killing from their desks and their computers in the military, but also in the civil service,” Gretton writes. “They might be in the oil industry, armaments, pharmaceuticals, but you can also find them in finance, insurance, politics or law. They rarely intend to kill, or injure, but their actions, combined with the vast and diffuse reach of government and contemporary corporate power, result in hundreds of thousands of deaths and devastated lives.”

    In the words of Alexandre Dumas: “I have always been more afraid of a quill, a bottle of ink, and a sheet of paper, than a sword or a pistol.”

    The less lethal version is Mario Puzo: “A lawyer with a briefcase can steal more than a hundred men with guns.”

  15. 15.

    different-church-lady

    I think it is revelatory about “the state of things”, shall we say, that so many people who might otherwise be disgusted or horrified by this kind of murder are trying very hard to not say, “Yeah, but fuck that dude,” and not really putting a lot of effort into hiding it.

  18. 18.

    CaseyL

    Even if they catch the guy, if this case goes to trial they’re gonna have to fill the jury box with CEOs to avoid an acquittal.

    I just don’t see a jury of ordinary people convicting someone for doing something many, many of us have reasons to sympathize with.

  23. 23.

    Bill Arnold

    It’s also possibly a play on “Avoid, Deny, Defend “, a short mnemonic used in training for active shooter incidents.
    Call it a kinetic pun, maybe.

  24. 24.

    Geminid

    @CaseyL: I think a normal New York City jury will find the shooter guilty if the evidence is there.

    Maybe someone with trial experience will weigh in on the question.

  26. 26.

    Betsy

    It is right and good to see the demise of those whose actions are such that nothing but death will stop them from grievously harming others.

  28. 28.

    different-church-lady

    @Betsy: ​Well, in a perfect world we’d rather see such “desk killers” brought to justice by other means.

    We don’t live in a perfect world.

  31. 31.

    trollhattan

    Anybody wishing a look ahead at Trump 2.0 should just rewatch Idiocracy.

    “Signals from President-elect Trump’s team that a shake-up of the White House press briefing room could be coming are roiling journalists preparing to cover his second term,” The Hill reports.

    “People close to Trump have said in recent days he should dramatically change who gets access to the president, suggesting podcasters, internet personalities and media deemed more friendly to him could replace outlets like the major television networks, The New York Times and The Washington Post in the room’s front rows.”

  32. 32.

    Jeffg166

    @Booger:

    I was telling people to read that yesterday. The part about private jets of the rich being shot out of the sky came to mind.

    The rich are going to find out they are not going to escape all the ramifications of climate change by building a bunker to live in until things blow over.

  35. 35.

    wenchacha

    I wonder if the shooter had more inscribed casings in his gun, or did he just want to send the three word message?

    It does seem like he will have left other comments about health care issues on social media.

  36. 36.

    Chris

    @Betsy:

    Not exactly what people usually mean when they say “God created man, but Sam Colt made them equal,” but I’ll take it.

  41. 41.

    different-church-lady

    @Jeffg166:

    The rich are going to find out they are not going to escape all the ramifications of climate change by building a bunker to live in until things blow over.

    But it won’t stop them from trying.

  42. 42.

    TaMara

    Here’s what I care about: Children massacred in their schools, people massacred while grocery shopping, praying, or enjoying a concert; women routinely murdered by men who think they possess them; people who are denied healthcare based on the financial gains of corporations; the poisoning of our planet in the name of profits.

    Some random CEO whose bonuses are based on the company routinely denying coverage to people in the name of profit, gunned down on the street? Not so much.  Spare me the outrage until we are outraged by every person whose life was made worse by his company’s policies. Let’s hear their stories with the same detail we are going to be subjected to about this man.

  43. 43.

    comrade scotts agenda of rage

    @Geminid:

    I think a normal New York City jury will find the shooter guilty if the evidence is there.

    Hair Furor’s infamous quote about 5th Ave and shooting and getting away with it comes to mind here.

  44. 44.

    @mistermix.bsky.social

    Had to step away for a bit – the comment about the cops investigating it thoroughly was sarcasm.

    As for the professionalism of the killer, clearly not a contract killer, but according to some of the commenters on reddit (I know, experts) who saw the video, the guy was using a silencer and cleared the jams quickly. They said that using subsonic rounds and a silencer could lead to a semi auto pistol not ejecting the round fully. So at least the guy had practiced and probably knew his gun would jam. FWIW…

  45. 45.

    Chris

    @different-church-lady:

    “You know what I’ve noticed?  Nobody panics when things go according to plan.  Even if the plan is horrifying.  If, tomorrow, I tell the press that, like, a gang banger’ll be shot, or a truckload of soldiers will be blown up, nobody panics.  Because it’s all.  Part.  Of the plan.  But when I say that one little old mayor will die, well then everybody loses their minds!”

    So many good quotes coming back to me.

  46. 46.

    Bill Arnold

    @Geminid:
    Jury selection would be interesting, I expect.
    Most people have had bad experiences with insurance companies, including improper (in their mind) denial of claims.

  48. 48.

    Mai Naem mobile ¹

    I have to admit my first reaction when i heard of the guy’s killing was if the ambulance ride and ED medical care would be denied by United. I just don’t have any sympathy left for any large company CEO.  I have a feeling right now is a good time to appeal a denial of some kind of medical service  from United.

  49. 49.

    NotMax

    @trollhattan

    “In keeping with tradition the first question goes to zombie Helen Thomas. Helen?”

    “Gluh.”

    “No question then? Thank you all for coming. And for purchasing your Trumpspressos™ from the coffee bar.”
    //

  50. 50.

    Doug

    “Desk killer” is a translation of Schreibtischtäter, a term that was used after the war for Nazis who signed orders but did not take part directly in killing people. Maybe time for that word to pass into English like blitzkrieg and schadenfreude.

  51. 51.

    Old Man Shadow

    I wonder how many people he murdered or injured. How many thousands might still be with their loved ones. But he did it all “legally” under the guise of capitalist greed. He got to go home everyday and take his 10 million dollar salary with him and enjoy freedom.

    Frankly, if one of his victims happened to strike back, I consider it a form of justice and I would vote to acquit.

  55. 55.

    Hungry Joe

    @CaseyL: If the evidence was there — and I assume it would be — I’d vote to convict. And I’d feel terrible about it. It’d be a real “Billy Budd” situation.*

    * “God bless Captain Vere!” — some of the saddest words in American fiction. But then, I’m a Melville guy, so … )

  56. 56.

    Argiope

    @Booger: I thought about Ministry for the Future too, and wonder if the perpetrator has read it.  This was no spur-of-the-moment act.  It’s a form of terrorism against the desk killers–puts them all on notice.  As such, I don’t know how to feel about it.

  57. 57.

    lashonharangue

    I think part of the reaction is a very American attitude (across political lines) that social problems are much more due to bad people rather than bad systems and incentives. We idolize the individual. Does anyone here think if there was a different CEO that insurance company would have had different policies?

  59. 59.

    Chris

    @different-church-lady:

    To be fair, the ultimate point of the film is that the Joker doesn’t actually have his finger on the pulse of human sociopathy.  He’s just a psychopath trying to reassure himself that everybody’s like him.

  60. 60.

    trollhattan

    @NotMax: I think zombie Helen Thomas would immediately leap to the top of the WH correspondent heap. Swear to god, if they give a chair to Joe Rogan….

  66. 66.

    trollhattan

    @john b: Maybe they could prop an ipad on a chair and joe can live-blog the pressers.

    “Virtual Joe Rogan would like to know the president’s views on oxygen-infused sparkling water and whether it can increase muscle bulk.”

  69. 69.

    M31

    @lashonharangue:

    It is the case that United Health has a much higher claim denial rate than other insurers (from the charts that I’ve seen).

    Like 32% (as opposed to 15 or so for others).

    So, maybe this particular CEO was worse than the others, which is pretty impressive.

  71. 71.

    LeftCoastYankee

    And UHC will unashamedly collect insurance from their “Key Person” policy, and a new CEO will take over and the company will be just as voracious in milking misery for money.

  73. 73.

    Old Man Shadow

    @lashonharangue: The system is made of men and women and their decisions.

    Giving them a constant fear that one day the consequences of those decisions might come around to visit them in a rather unpleasant way, and in a way that can’t be shut down with lawyers, might cause them to rethink some of those decisions.

    But it would probably take a lot more than the death of one CEO to do that.

  74. 74.

    M31

    When will we start seeing breathless media stories about this terrible example of white-on-white crime?

    ugh, I’m sad that I thought that

  75. 75.

    Old Man Shadow

    @Memory Pallas: He can fuck off any time then. We won’t miss him. And the thought of him in his little Martian hut trying to grow potatoes out of his own shit would really provide the nation a morale boost right now.

  77. 77.

    Chris

    @lashonharangue:

    That’s kind of why it’s so hard for me to give a shit, frankly.

    CEOs have spent the last forty years screaming at us that they are exceptional individuals doing an exceptional job and being exceptionally responsible for everything good that happens in the world.  That they’re the ones carrying all of society on their backs, to the point that “you didn’t build that” is an exceptionally offensive thing to say to them about their company’s achievements, practically the class war equivalent of using the N word.  That the reason they deserve all those obscene amounts of millions is that they’re so special that they literally create all the wealth and services of a company, while everybody else is just a replaceable dumb worker drone and cog in the machine.

    Well, if you’ve kept telling everyone that you’re responsible for everything that happens, that you are the American economy, that you are the morning and the evening star, you can hardly complain if someone who’s been mistreated by that economy concludes that you’re the one he has a problem with and should be shot, can you?

  82. 82.

    janesays

    @Belafon: Wouldn’t be surprised if he takes himself out before he gets apprehended. It’s either that or lonely misery stuck in a concrete box for the rest of his life.

  85. 85.

    Old Man Shadow

    @Omnes Omnibus: If people can’t find justice in the law or in political solutions, some people will seek it outside of the law.

    I don’t know honestly.

    The system has sucked most of my life and is getting worse, not better. The moral questions… the notions of right and wrong… they don’t seem as clear to me as they used to. And the law only seems to protect the wealthy, not the rest of us.

    I don’t know what the answer is, but maybe the wealthy and privileged do need a dose of fear to motivate them to build a more equitable society. Whether fear of personal harm or fear of losing their fortunes to a political revolution…

  86. 86.

    Dave

    @different-church-lady: That’s mostly where I’m at. Not quite allowing myself to say “good” but my sympathy for him ends at something about predictable consequences.

    He thought he was playing a game he couldn’t lose but there are always outside factors. The current system rewards sociopathy or people who put on the uniform of sociopathy.

    I do however think about the weight of quiet sanitized killing. I’m reasonably certain that I didn’t directly kill anyone overseas (not for want of trying you shoot at me I shoot at you it’s a damned tragedy but fair game and yes basically yada yada yada’s something that requires a lot of examination) however I am fairly confident that I am at least indirectly responsible for deaths and I genuinely don’t know how to process that.

    Hold onto the idea that it wasn’t for crass personal gain and excess but a mix of an indoctrinated idea of service and desire to mitigate harm because I’m kind of an idiot.

    Might be personalizing events in a way that is a bit narcissistic. Had that feeling after the recent election.

    Sooooo yeah I guess that is enough sharing.

  89. 89.

    Citizen Dave

    Bullseye! I also rewatched Network a year or two ago. That’s where I got my first BJ nym from in 2016 , Mad Citizen.

  92. 92.

    BigJimSlade

    I’m a little surprised this sort of thing doesn’t happen more often. I think back to the aughts (2000s) to people (conservatives) who were all ready to attack anything/anybody in the middle east “to protect our way of life” but then sit down and shut up when fracking poisons their well water. That they didn’t fight back against that always kinda mystified me and I wouldn’t have been surprised if someone(s) went all vigilante.

  93. 93.

    Citizen Alan

    @lashonharangue: no. In fact, a different CEO who tried to enact better, more socially friendly policies would swiftly get kicked out. Legally speaking, the sole the purpose of a corporation is to maximize shareholder value, which is also the sole obligation of the CEO. Any socially positive action that a CEO causes of the corporation to undertake that reduces shareholder value will lead to a shareholder revolt and his replacement. 

    I have argued over the years that the Vinge Singularity actually began over a hundred years ago and is nearly completed. But it did not come in the form  of a hyper-intelligent AI that wants to kill us or some gray goo nanotechnology that runs amok. The singularity that’s going to kill us all started with the creation of the publicly-traded limited liability corporation, a socioeconomic entity that exists only to maximize its own profits by any means necessary and available, and which inevitably self selects for sociopaths as the mortals charged with achieving that profit maximization.

  96. 96.

    Melancholy Jaques

    @Belafon:

    They’re now saying he didn’t escape on a CitiBike.

    As we have learned over and over, early reporting needs to be regarded with skepticism.

  99. 99.

    Enhanced Voting Techniques

    Apparently there is an argument that the CEO was “Nice guy and well liked by those who knew him”

    The same was said about the guy who ran Auschwitz.

    Anyway, my insurance company doesn’t cover mourning.

  100. 100.

    different-church-lady

    @Chris:

    He’s just a psychopath trying to reassure himself that everybody’s like him.

    And in that way he’s a perfect foreshadowing of Trump.

  102. 102.

    Old Man Shadow

    @Omnes Omnibus: Yeah and they always replace one set of bastards with a new set of bastards.

    But asking people to continue to tolerate systems that quietly and legally sicken, injure, and kill their loved ones because the change might be worse than the status quo is only going to go so far.

  103. 103.

    Citizen Alan

    @Dave: The current system rewards sociopathy or people who put on the uniform of sociopathy.

    Is there a difference between actual sociopaths and people who are willing to behave sociopaths if their paycheck, is high enough? I feel quite certain that I will be a multimillionaire today if I were completely lacking in empathy and a sense of ethics. IOW, i don’t think I could do what brian thompson did for a living, not even for his $23.5 million dollar salary.

  104. 104.

    Steve LaBonne

    My hatred for mass murderers who hide behind a desk is a pre-existing condition, so unfortunately I can’t get it treated.

  105. 105.

    Chris

    @Citizen Alan:

    I have argued over the years that the Vinge Singularity actually began over a hundred years ago and is nearly completed. But it did not come in the form  of a hyper-intelligent AI that wants to kill us or some gray goo nanotechnology that runs amok. The singularity that’s going to kill us all started with the creation of the publicly-traded limited liability corporation, a socioeconomic entity that exists only to maximize its own profits by any means necessary and available, and which inevitably self selects for sociopaths as the mortals charged with achieving that profit maximization.

    I’ve said before that virtually everything people are afraid of when they picture “Artificial Intelligence” as disembodied non-human persons that are nevertheless trusted to run more and more of our society until the human element is ruled irrelevant… already exists.  The non-human “persons” are called corporations.

  106. 106.

    oclday

    I get what I assume is the frustration and anger of the killer, but this is whack a mole.  Kill one and another one equally egregious will pop up in his place.

  108. 108.

    different-church-lady

    @lashonharangue:

    Does anyone here think if there was a different CEO that insurance company would have had different policies?

    Within a certain narrow range, yes. It’s top-down: corporations take on the character of their leaders. But it would only be a matter of degrees. Some might try to do better within the range — be less ruthless, shall we say, or try to move the range slightly to the better. Others will just be ruthless as possible.

    You won’t see the first type on CNBC.

  109. 109.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Old Man Shadow: I am not asking people to do that.  I am pointing out that bloody revolution is perhaps something that shouldn’t be at top of list of preferred actions.

  110. 110.

    Dave

    @Citizen Alan: Suspect the only real difference is that the “true” sociopath doesn’t have to worry about letting those ugly thoughts and whispers into their minds.

    From an external standpoint that we create so many of the second group is blaring alarm that things are fucked and need we need to change incentive structures immediately.

    Which well the electorate has decided that isn’t happening in the immediate future.

  111. 111.

    different-church-lady

    @Old School: ​

    I’m leaning towards “not the shooter.”

    Which seems to be a rather inevitable phenomenon in these kinds of things.

  112. 112.

    Motivated Seller

    I can’t imagine Republicans actually doing the right thing with regards to Gun Control, or Predatory Capitalism, but I think this is probably the only way Republicans would see it in their own best interest to respect democracy.

  113. 113.

    Dave

    @different-church-lady: It’s one of those things where if you are acting at a high enough level you are going to be responsible for deaths somewhere but the difference of degree matters and it also matters if you are doing your damnedest to bring about a system that minimizes that.

    Or if you are taking your millions and treating the idea of anything outside the very conveniently narrow legal and ethical framework you use to justify yourself and the benefits you accrue simply doesn’t exist.

    It’s why the thought terminating mantras like in the headline exist.

  114. 114.

    Chris

    @different-church-lady:

    @Argiope:  I think this why E**n M**k is frantically trying to get to Mars.

    I’m like, “Hey, I’ll happily chip in $100 if it will get him there sooner.”

    Every time I see a story like Firefly whose premise is “well Earth was all messed up so we left,” part of me’s like “well fuck you guys, I don’t want to hear your story, I want to hear the story of the guys you left behind on Earth to pick up the pieces.”

    Incidentally, everything about the Firefly universe makes sense if you assume that the whole exodus from Earth was a project by Elon Musk type techbros.  Of course the ultimate government these people would end up with is a military-corporate cyberpunk style dystopia like the Alliance.  It eventually pushes around enough people that these people fight back, but since their entire civilization is the product of a Silicon Valley Techbro exodus, they have no frame of reference for their resistance other than vaguely libertarian “government bad” ideas.  And, naturally, they end up squashed.

  115. 115.

    Dave

    @Chris: Would have really enjoyed a if a somewhat more militant version of Star Trek’s Federation formed on Earth after the government/techbro alliance fled came knocking on The Alliance’s door.

  116. 116.

    Chief Oshkosh

    @oclday: Well, there are a lot of guns and bullets available to the typical American, so…

    ETA: Brought to you by other corporations, their CEOs, and a willing political class.

  118. 118.

    trollhattan

    On a day in America ending in Y, more gunshot victims, who happen not to be CEOs.

    Two kindergartners, boys 5 and 6 years old, suffered critical wounds after a shooting Wednesday at a faith-based elementary school, where an alleged shooter appeared to target the campus before fatally shooting himself, Northern California authorities said.

    A lone gunman had an appointment with a school administrator at Feather River Adventist School on Cox Lane in Oroville to discuss enrolling a child. A principal heard screaming after the meeting ended about 1 p.m. as gunfire broke out outside, said Butte County Sheriff Kory Honea during a news conference.

    Deputies are investigating if the alleged shooter’s appointment was a “ruse” and whether he intended to single out the school, which has only about three dozen students, based on its affiliation with the Seventh-day Adventist Church. Honea said deputies are also investigating whether the incident should be classified as a hate crime but declined to say what information led them to believe the man targeted the school, located along Highway 70 between Gridley and Palermo.

    Police officers in nearby Oroville, Chico and Paradise were dispatched to protect other Adventist schools in the area after Honea alerted them. The meeting between the gunman and principal was cordial, prompting no initial concerns for the school, Honea said. The sheriff said the two boys with “very, very serious” wounds were taken to Sacramento-area hospitals to receive medical treatment. One of them was taken by helicopter. Honea during a 7 p.m. news conference said the two boys were in “extremely critical condition.” “They have a long road ahead of them.”

    https://www.sacbee.com/news/local/crime/article296576049.html#storylink=cpy

  121. 121.

    JML

    I get the fuck the corporations attitude, eat the rich, who cares about a CEO…but this is also where it feels like the worst of the internet comes back out to play. Dude was assassinated and there’s way too many people who are very comfortable (on the internet, natch) saying functionally, “he deserved to die.” which…that’s a bad sign for humanity IMHO.

    And I’m seeing kind of a lot of it.

    I’m not going out of my way to mourn this rich dude that I never met. But rising to the level of “he deserved to die for his career” is a pretty awful place to be in, no matter what he and or his company may (or may not) have done. Can’t get there. Don’t want to live in that space.

  123. 123.

    trollhattan

    @JML: I cannot support the death penalty and thus, cannot support this. Simple.

    With that said, confess to being a wee conflicted the day of the Trump ear graze.

  124. 124.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @JML: His career choices put him in a position where someone wanted to kill him.  It also put him in a position where ordinary people feel little sympathy for him.  A domestic violence counselor could also be in a position where someone wanted to kill them.  The difference is that people would feel sympathy for the counselor.

  127. 127.

    Math Guy

    Quoting (from imperfect memory) Mark Twain: I do not wish anyone dead, but there are some obituaries that I look forward to reading.

  128. 128.

    Bill Arnold

    @Chris:
    See also this lecture (transcript) by Charlie Stross (2017: keynote at the 34th Chaos Communications Congress Leipzig). It touches on corporations as AI.
    Dude, you broke the future!
    Snippet:

    Here’s the thing about corporations: they’re clearly artificial, but legally they’re people. They have goals, and operate in pursuit of these goals. And they have a natural life cycle. In the 1950s, a typical US corporation on the S&P 500 index had a lifespan of 60 years, but today it’s down to less than 20 years.
    Corporations are cannibals; they consume one another. They are also hive superorganisms, like bees or ants. For their first century and a half they relied entirely on human employees for their internal operation, although they are automating their business processes increasingly rapidly this century. Each human is only retained so long as they can perform their assigned tasks, and can be replaced with another human, much as the cells in our own bodies are functionally interchangeable (and a group of cells can, in extremis, often be replaced by a prosthesis). To some extent corporations can be trained to service the personal desires of their chief executives, but even CEOs can be dispensed with if their activities damage the corporation, as Harvey Weinstein found out a couple of months ago.

  129. 129.

    Dave

    @Omnes Omnibus: And the counselor is probably aware of this and while I don’t know what this guys internal thoughts were if he ever gave that any thought it isn’t obvious.

    Though from limited contact the biggest difference between the more traditional type like this dude and the techbro set is that the techbros think about this constantly and how to protect themselves (idiotically it generally reads like bad post apocalyptic fanfiction) from the consequences of their actions.

    While still denying any responsibility for their actions or the consequences.

  130. 130.

    TBone

    @Barbara: thanks, the stock fraud investigation(s) and firefighters’ pension fund lawsuit bring new meaning to the word ‘deposed’ that was inscribed.

  131. 131.

    Enhanced Voting Techniques

    @JML: Come on, it’s not like Thompson was a sympathetic figure, like say a meth-addict who was shot by a father defending his family during a home invasion, or a mangy collie with rabies.  People just need time process this tragic murder and see the humanity of of Thompson reflected in themselves.

  132. 132.

    Paul M Gottlieb

    @comrade scotts agenda of rage: Trump thought he could get away with it because no prosecutor would have the guts to indict him–and he may have been right. But we’ve already seen that New York juries are not impressed by Donald Trump

  134. 134.

    Formica

    @Citizen Dave:

    I rewashed Idiocracy a couple years ago.  A prescient movie.  It’s never far from my mind.  Like yesterday when I saw a local headline: State Police: Please don’t put christmas lights on your car. Link

    Mike Judge was an optimist. In Idiocracy:

    President Camacho clearly identified and understood the problem
    He moved quickly to reassure the American public that he would solve the problem
    He recognized that he was no expert and not personally equipped to solve the problem
    He located and hired the most intelligent person he could find to solve the problem

    Compare and contrast to, say, appointing a crypto bro to run the SEC, or a Russian agent to run the DNI.

  136. 136.

    Old School

    @Paul M Gottlieb:

    Trump thought he could get away with it because no prosecutor would have the guts to indict him–and he may have been right.

    Trump’s 5th Avenue statement was about his voters still voting for him regardless of what he does.  It had nothing to do with the legal system.

  137. 137.

    Misterpuff

    @trollhattan:

    “Signals from President-elect Trump’s team that a shake-up of the White House press briefing room could be coming are roiling journalists preparing to cover his second term,” The Hill reports.

    “People close to Trump have said in recent days he should dramatically change who gets access to the president, suggesting podcasters, internet personalities and media deemed more friendly to him could replace outlets like the major television networks, The New York Times and The Washington Post in the room’s front rows.”

    “Here I am, Front Row!”

    The cool kids sit in the back rows….

  141. 141.

    catclub

    a riff on the three D’s of healthcare insurers: Delay, Deny, Defend.

    Actually it also applies to life insurer’s. Apparently the MacArthurs. who fund the MacArthur prizes, got their money by denying life insurance claims.
    My recollection from — Andrew Tobias, The Invisible Bankers.

  142. 142.

    Snarki, child of Loki

    When the privileged few are beyond legal accountability, and clearly inflict death on people, is it any surprise that their loved ones will seek accountability “by other means”?

     

    Now do anti-abortion TX officials.

  143. 143.

    catclub

    @Formica: Compare and contrast to, say, appointing a crypto bro to run the SEC, or a Russian agent to run the DNI.

     

    I think Tulsi has done a brilliant/extremely lucky job of skating under the radar, or the chaff due to all the other terrible choices. Russia must be so happy.

  147. 147.

    different-church-lady

    @JML:

    But rising to the level of “he deserved to die for his career” is a pretty awful place to be in

    Lowering to that level. Otherwise agreed But that appears to be where we’re headed, whether we want to or not. Any one of us doesn’t have to be an active part of going there, but we don’t steer the ship.

  149. 149.

    tam1MI

    @Barbara: You might want to read this from Robyn Pennachia at Wonkette.  The last two paragraphs in particular.

    Point of order: LES MISERABLES was not about the French Revolution. (And the most famous book about the French Revolution was A TALE OF TWO CITIES). Other than that basic lack of fact-checking, Ms. Pennachia’s point stands.

  151. 151.

    Misterpuff

    @catclub:

    I think Tulsi has done a brilliant/extremely lucky job of skating under the radar, or the chaff due to all the other terrible choices. Russia must be so happy.

     

    Her time will come.

    We can only load the barrel one nomination at the time.

    Trumbels have extra seating.

  152. 152.

    dm

    @Belafon: Don’t you need a credit card or a membership to use a Citibike?  Not a way to remain anonymous.

    I doubted that part of the reports.

  154. 154.

    RSA

    @Doug:  “Desk killer” is a translation of Schreibtischtäter, a term that was used after the war for Nazis who signed orders but did not take part directly in killing people. Maybe time for that word to pass into English like blitzkrieg and schadenfreude.

    I wish, but the similarly pronounced “tater” is too well-established.

    Thanks for the German lesson though!

  157. 157.

    Chris Johnson

    @Enhanced Voting Techniques: This is really the final take-away. And worth noting.

    There is no grander evil than this.

    It all ends up being more or less like this. Sometimes more vindictive, more or less stupid, more narrowed in onto persecuting something definable, or broadened out like this until you have a ‘very nice guy really’ who runs the death machine that kills whole populations.

    There is no grander evil than this guy. They’re all like that, they all sleep okay at night. It’s the banality of it, which was learned after the Nazi regime, which will be learned once more in Russia once that shit falls apart, which is being learned here.

    If not this ‘nice guy’, who? People who are more petty and vindictive? You’ll find those, but aren’t they more likely to have a much smaller body count?

    There is no bigger evil. There’s just us, and that’s the most frightening part.

  158. 158.

    Geminid

    There is a criminal trial going in Turkiye of several dozen health care providers. Turkiye’s health system provides extra payments for newborns in intensive care. Prosecutors say that healthy infants were diverted to intensive care units and that a number of them died as a result.

  159. 159.

    dm

    Part of the deal with United Healthcare is that it’s a captive market.  It’s customers aren’t the people to whom it denies claims, but the Vice Presidents of HR at major corporations, who elect to go with UHC instead of one of its competitors after a round of golf with the salesperson, and drag their entire workforce along.  The VP of HR’s bottom line looks good, because the cost to their employees isn’t reflected in it.

  163. 163.

    Dr. Fungus

    Stolen from Bluesky:

    No, he didn’t deserve to be gunned down.
    He deserved to be convicted by a jury of his peers, fined of all his money, and sent to prison for a long-ass time.
    Sadly, that’s not the world we live in.

  165. 165.

    Helen Rae Charbonneau

    @WereBear: our new president can kill, maim, whatever, and get away with it, according to the USSC.
     There is not justice for all, and the same rules do not universally apply.

    Depends on who you are and who/what you know.

  166. 166.

    artem1s

    @Chris: 

    CEOs have spent the last forty years screaming at us that they are exceptional individuals doing an exceptional job and being exceptionally responsible for everything good that happens in the world.

    They are all outraged at this one CEO’s death but I wonder if that’s because it reveals the lie that any of them really make any difference to how the companies operate.
    As of today United Healthcare stock is about 4% down. Doesn’t seem to me that it’s missed this CEO at all. So not really that much of a Sooper Genius was he? Seems like all the Fortune 500 companies should dump their over priced CEO’s and replace them with out of work Soap Opera and Law & Order character actors for pennies on the dollar.

  167. 167.

    artem1s

    @Melancholy Jaques: ​ 

    Are we sure that’s the shooter? That kind of clothing is pretty common.

    The initial suspects for Atlanta bombing, Boston Marathon bombing, and Anthrax terrorist were all way off mark. I have my doubts about whether the PoPo got the right guy on the first try.

  170. 170.

    comrade scotts agenda of rage

    @artem1s:

    Seems like all the Fortune 500 companies should dump their over priced CEO’s and replace them with out of work Soap Opera and Law & Order character actors for pennies on the dollar.

    Can we get H1B visas to bring in lower-priced foreign CEOs? The guys we have here are waaaay overpaid, and some foreign competition would increase shareholder returns and company profitability. The market just isn’t functioning properly at the executive level.

    //

  171. 171.

    AM in NC

    @Dave:  You don’t sound like an idiot to me.  You sound like a moral, thoughtful person grappling with complex moral issues.  Thank you for sharing.

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