Does it matter that at least one of Trump’s top-tier Cabinet nominees go down in flames?
Josh Marshall at TPM says YES, and I am happy to hear it.
So does it matter that Hesgeth goes down the tubes?
It does.
All political power is unitary. A president isn’t weak domestically but powerful on foreign policy — powerful on health care policy but hanging by a thread on interest rates. It’s all of a piece. The damage a president takes anywhere affects him or her everywhere. So having these absurd nominations go down in flames actually does matter. It’s not just the same as if Trump had nominated DeSantis or Pam Bondi in the first place.
This next paragraph is is key, and it’s a really smart take that had never occurred to me.
That brings us to a broader point. If the political opposition is most worried about what a President will do on issue X, that doesn’t mean the opposition should necessarily focus its attacks on issue X. They may ignore issue X entirely. Maybe issue X is actually popular. Maybe nobody cares about issue X. So no one will pay attention. An opposition will focus its attacks on the President’s most vulnerable points because that is where his or her power can be reduced most effectively. And all political power is unitary.
I think most of us are aware of this already, but Josh has stated it so well that it’s worth sharing,
It’s mostly a fool’s game trying to figure out just what Trump was trying to achieve nominating this group of clowns for most of the top Cabinet positions. Simple loyalty was a big factor, people who won’t flinch from doing whatever Trump says. They’re also all good on TV, or, at least, what Trump thinks is good on TV. But really it was a power play. It’s Caligula appointing his horse to the Senate. The absurdity is the point. I can do anything. Make the Republican Senate line up and approve a roster of manifestly unqualified nominees. But they’re going down one after another.
Wink wink, nudge nudge.
They’re doing it in a particular GOP senator way — all through winks and shadows, pregnant sighs. As far as I know, no Republican senator said they wouldn’t vote for Matt Gaetz, just as none has said so about Hegseth. On the pod Kate and I recorded this afternoon, we noted that if this were Biden’s or Harris’ transition, watching the top nominees go down in flames would be treated like the presidency itself was DOA. But not having a fancy Times or Politico columnist say it doesn’t make it any less so. Trump’s ability to just dictate isn’t quite panning out. And that matters.
Trump is fairly obviously trying to intimidate Republicans in office. To Trump, making them look weak is key. Trump wants all the power for himself. Trump is daring Republican politicians to stand up to him, because when they don’t stand up to him on this right out of the gate, he has all the power.
The idea that all power is unitary is key, I think, to the work that’s ahead of us. Chip away, bit by bit, everywhere we can. We won’t win nearly as many fights as we want to, but if we weaken him each time, it will add up.
Jeffg166
His nominees were a test to see what he could get away with.
YY_Sima Qian
Absolutely agree with Josh Marshall. Take scalps, especially during confirmation. & don’t let the MSM or the Repubs try to normalized their slightly less kooky replacements, certainly no Dem should be doing the normalization themselves.
Daoud bin Daoud
Trump is totally dependent on bullying to get his way, and when bullying doesn’t work, he usually folds. This is not an individual with a large mental toolbox – he only has a hammer for bashing in people’s heads, and when he misses, he lacks follow-through
different-church-lady
You know why? You’re not gonna like this… IT’S BECAUSE THEY’VE GOT MORE POLITICAL SMARTS THAN OUR TEAM.
different-church-lady
@Jeffg166: Even that is overthinking it. Trump is obsessed with fame and loyalty. He’s putting together a reality-show cabinet and set of advisors because they’re on TV and they suck up to him. That’s the end of the qualification list.
Scott
I don’t know if it makes a difference or not but I just called and harangued my two Senators: Cornyn and Cruz. Mostly about Hegseth since I was career AF and mostly concerned about defense and foreign policy. I also tossed in a few comments about Patel. I finally asked them both to stand up and be a Senator and not a potted plants.
We’ll see. I’m not hopeful.
gene108
Signaling he wants to fire FBI Director Wray and replace him with a yes man who owes everything to Trump is largely ignored, because it’s normal for FBI directors to serve at the whim of the president…
Trump’s not even trying to hide the fact he’s going to take a blowtorch to whatever guardrails were ever put in place to limit a president’s power, including Senate confirmation of Cabinet appointments.
WaterGirl
@Scott: Those phone calls matter. We should all be doing that.
If I call my senator, Dick Durban, it would be to say he either needs to step up to meet the times, or step away. Comity is dead and Dick Durban needs to know it in his bones.
WaterGirl
@gene108:
But it’s not normal. They are given 10 year (I nearly wrote sentences!) positions because that’s not supposed to be a political position that changes with the resident in the white house.
Omnes Omnibus
Paul Krugman is retiring from the NYT.
Trivia Man
I think the horse analogy is spot on. BECAUSE I CAN is ample reason. Grind the senate’s nose in their impotence. Until they resist.
different-church-lady
So… is there really any valid reason for getting out of bed?
BellyCat
@Omnes Omnibus: Maybe he can now write what he REALLY thinks with impunity.
WaterGirl
@Omnes Omnibus: Wow.
Reading between the lines, it appears to me like he doesn’t like the restraints of the current NYT.
Was that how you read it?
sab
I know we aren’t supposed to be watching MSM after the election (and then we wonder why we don’t have any MSM om our side) but I still am watching Ali Velshi and Lawrence O’Donnell.
Velshi is Indian ethnicity ( dunno why I thought he was Iranian background) who was himself born in Kenya and raised in Canada, with parents born not White in South Africa.
He is digging in and reporting back. One of his recent interviews was Maria Rassa, Philipina reporter who just lived through Duarte’s authoritarian regime. Her point was we can fight back. Also too, Phillipines has a US imposed government designed like ours, two legislative houses and an elected president. Not a parliamentary system at all. And they fought back and won, years later.
different-church-lady
@WaterGirl: I clearly read it as, “I can no longer abide by my current employers going full Hitler-curious but I’m not going to slit my career throat saying it out loud.”
Omnes Omnibus
@WaterGirl: He isn’t saying, but the timing may be suggestive. But he has been there for a while and he may just be ready to move on.
Warblewarble
Elon and the Cryptocrooks have let it be known , that there will be unlimited sums to unseat gopers who do not fall in line.
beckya57
@different-church-lady: 💯. We need to be copying some of the GOP’s tactics, though use them for benign ends. Getting and keeping power is necessary in politics to get things done! Following the McConnell 2008 playbook of total opposition would be a very good start.
Omnes Omnibus
No one here is the boss of you. Do what you want.
Ohio Mom
@Omnes Omnibus: Well it’s not as if he isn’t retirement age or needs the money.
It will be interesting to see what he does next and how he frames his departure from the NYT. It’s their loss but I have trouble imagining they will see it that way.
different-church-lady
@beckya57: So, like not joining a pig-pile on your own candidate? Things like that?
beckya57
@WaterGirl: Durbin is useless in this moment, as is most of the older Dem leadership. They developed their political instincts in a very different era. They need to step aside and let AOC, Crockett etc take over, but they won’t, unfortunately.
beckya57
@Omnes Omnibus: Interesting. I wish Bouie and Goldberg would also leave.
eemom
Krugman has been the only good thing about the Fascist Times for as long as I can remember. Have often wondered how he could stand it there. Good for him.
Eunicecycle
@Scott: I really don’t have any Senators to call. My beloved Senator Brown will not be in the next Senate, Moreno isn’t in the Senate yet, and who knows who Governor NoSpine will nominate to take the VPs place.
YY_Sima Qian
@sab: Do you mean the Ferdinand Marcos regime? Because Rodrigo Duterte was succeeded by Bongbong Marcos (son of Ferdinand), w/ Sarah Duterte (daughter of Rodrigo) as VP. The two families’ patronage networks continue to dominate Filipino politics, both are deeply corrupt, illiberal, & have strong authoritarian tendencies. While the alliance between the two families have collapsed into open enmity, I can’t see how Duterte has been “defeated”. Illiberalism & strongman rule is on the rise in the Philippines, whether the Marcoses or the Dutertes emerge “victorious”.
beckya57
@WaterGirl: That’s how I read it, though he’s couched it in graceful language. I frankly don’t understand why Bouie and Goldberg stay there, though I guess it’s because it’s a big platform. Klein of course has been totally corrupted by the climate there.
sab
@Omnes Omnibus: Thank you for the permission. The guilt/shame had been weighing on me.
beckya57
@different-church-lady: Yes, that too! The Dems’ behavior often reminds me of an abused wife, endlessly pleading to be treated better. It’s quite understandable, but it also needs to change.
Omnes Omnibus
@sab: Sorry, the passive-aggressiveness of the first remark grated on me.
beckya57
@different-church-lady: yep that’s how I read it too.
schrodingers_cat
@Omnes Omnibus: He does not want to be associated with a tarnished brand.
comrade scotts agenda of rage
Time to finally subscribe to TPM!
To tag along with Josh’s material, I saw something a couple of weeks back where somebody on Hair Furor’s team telegraphed that exact stragety: support our nominees or be primaried….with billionaire monies backing your primary opponent.
beckya57
@YY_Sima Qian: To everyone here: if you don’t already subscribe to Marshall’s Talking Points Memo, you should absolutely sign up! His commentary is really on point.
Scamp Dog
@different-church-lady: Needing to use the bathroom is usually effective for me.
Jackie
@WaterGirl:
Very similar to Harry Litman quitting the LA Times, yesterday. I’m curious to see if others follow Krugman and Litman’s lead.
edited to add Litman’s announcement:
https://harrylitman.substack.com/p/why-i-just-resigned-from-the-los
WereBear
@WaterGirl: How I read it.
frosty
@beckya57: TPM was the first blog I read. I subscribed a few years ago. The news reporting is really good. I check the Editor’s Blog every day. Even when he’s just musing about something it’s a good read.
p.a
I agree that every top nominee knocked off is a win that makes Hair Furor look weak, but the job of constructing a fascist state will be done by the underSec/Heritage/1425 turds lower down. Any of them that can get whacked, any positions left unfilled, are AA++
Is our Senators learning?
WereBear
@beckya57: Such comparisons started in the first W administration. The one he stole.
catclub
In the down in flames list. Tulsi Gabbard is not even mentioned.
Harrison Wesley
I used to read the Inquirer when I lived in Philly (used to drink with some of its employees when I lived on 13th Street). Guess I’ll have to get a subscription even though I live in Florida now.
Scott
@WaterGirl: When I think about the state we’re in, I think how Schumer and Durbin were complicit by their approach to Senate business when we actually needed a wartime consiglieri. Not one serious investigation of the Trump and Kushner families. What was all that about?
NotMax
It matters more if they don’t go down in flames.
Keep the pressure on.
sab
@YY_Sima Qian: Duterte was so bad that Marcos family back is a relief.
sab
@Omnes Omnibus: Been there done that.
WaterGirl
@Jackie: Except Litman called out the cowardice of the L.A. Times in very clear language.
WereBear
I am checking out OpenSecrets.org to find out where to not spend my money. Surprise is that Amazon comes out looking better than some pious reputations that I’m not doing business with any more, like GEICO, Hanes, TJ Max/Marshalls and Trader Joes.
Jackie
O/T, but… will anyone really be surprised? Adams always seemed more GQP than Democratic, but NYC “requires” one to have a “D” behind their name to get elected.
sab
@WereBear: That is such a good suggestion.
Gin & Tonic
Romania’s top court has annulled the results of the first round of the Presidential election, which were won by a pro-russian fascist.
NotMax
@WereBea
21st century Niemöller.
“First they came for Penzey’s and I said nothing.”
//
tihotm
Our weak lame duck can’t quack like he used to do
Jackie
@Jackie: Further reading informed me of this:
Chris Johnson
No no, not exactly. Every goddamn one of the clowns is either an active agent for Putin, or so compromised with juicy blackmail that they will do anything for their true master (note: Trump is in this category!) and what Trump says has nothing to do with it. He has no agency, except in the sense of filching papers and dragging them down to Mar-A-Lago for Russian spies to photography: even then he’s not a proper agent as he’s too dumb to do useful work.
They are all wrecking balls. They are there to RUIN America, but they were also the only hope of a decaying Republican party to regain office.
And here we are.
The absurdity actually hampers the power play going on (or at least, hampers the MAGA side). They’re not SUPPOSED to be absurd, they’re supposed to be waved through and then to wreck everything so that Moscow looks like Heaven by comparison. It’s purely Putin ego, Russian ego, a desire to see us collapse by all available means. These nominees are not being put forth to fail, or to look dumb! They’re just the most hardcore options.
And they are opposed to the interests of the Republicans, who want to rule, not to see their new kingdom collapse. And so it’s a power struggle that dare not speak its name.
They’re all fucking Russian wrecking balls, and the Republicans don’t want to lose power but don’t want to be wrecked. Nothing about dictatorship displeases them but the idea that Putin gets to kick over their personal sandcastles. And Putin is past reasoning with, and probably threatening them and vowing to throw them all out windows, demanding they take the shit end of the stick or die.
I don’t think that’s gonna work on Americans as well as it worked on Russian rivals, and getting his puppet to nominate obvious wrecking balls there to cement Russian control is not coming across as awesome either. The Republicans don’t mind subverting the FBI, the CIA etc. but THEY want to be in control, and that is not on offer.
Old School
@Gin & Tonic:
Hmmm. Due to Russian influence.
Ksmiami
@p.a: I like your use of whacked….
Gin & Tonic
@Old School:
The russian influence part has been known since the beginning.
narya
@Harrison Wesley: I lived on 13th St. in 1982-3 . . .
UncleEbeneezer
@different-church-lady: But pig-piling our party/candidate is the only way we can prove we are independent thinkers unlike the rest of you hive-mind, group-think-infested, BlueNoMatterWho Sheeple!
Another Scott
Yup.
I notice that the talk of the Senate going on recess seems to have disappeared.
I return again to the well-known observation that everyone in the Senate thinks that they would be a much better president than whoever is in the office, and they guard their power pretty intensely. Witness the difficulty in filibuster / cloture / blue-slips / etc. reforms. Moscow Mitch showed that their power is in blocking stuff, not actually trying to get useful things done.
They’re not going to give up that power easily, and certainly aren’t going to do so in advance.
Something something we only need someone to sign what is put in front of them still holds.
We’ll see.
Stay strong, everyone. It’s going to be a slog. Eyes on the prizes.
Best wishes,
Scott.
RaflW
“The idea that all power is unitary is key, I think, to the work that’s ahead of us.” Yep. So I ask:
Do any BJers live in Ro Khanna’s district? He’s gobbing on Musk’s knob all over X, and tried it on Bsky too, but the ratio there has been brutal, so his second Xit did’nt get echoed (Bsky link to a screenshot of his rank acceptance of GOP talking points) on the butterfly app.
Saying you want to boost DOGE is fucking stupid. And I’m getting a really shitty Kyrsten Synema vibe off the guy.
Miss Bianca
@UncleEbeneezer: Le sigh. Nailed it, goddammit.
As I’ve pointed out previously: the biggest difference I see now between the GOP voters and the (would-be-could-be-should-be) Democratic voters are that the GOP stuck with the lousiest, shittiest candidate for POTUS that there could possibly be, and voted for him;
While the Democrats, after *one* debate, let themselves be panic-stampeded into jettisoning the best POTUS of my lifetime and telling anyone who voted for him in the primary, “fuck you”.
Funny thing, a lot of people ended up…not voting for the Democrats. Who can’t be bothered to demonstrate stick-to-itiveness, or loyalty, or even coherence in their stances.
No wonder all the would-be “Democratic Socialists” wouldn’t understand the notion of voting as the most basic form of collective action if it bit them in the collective ass.
dc
I think it’s important internationally that Claudia Sheinbaum (a woman!) the new president of Mexico has basically told the incoming Asshole to go to hell as opposed to acting like a scared lap dog like Canada’s Trudeau has.
Geminid
@Jackie: Electorally, Mayor Adams is a goner no matter what party he identifies with. An Emerson poll taken month before Adams was showed his Aprove/Disapprove rating 2 to 1 against him.
At best, Adams might better win a pardon as a Republican and that is a likely motivation here. He might even get Trump’s Justice Department to derail his prosecution* but that won’t revive his political prospects.
* Adams and some members of his administration are charged with taking bribes from a Turkish affiliated construction company intended to ease the petmitying process for Turkiye House, that nation’s fancy new building that houses its Consulate and U.N. delegation.
This inspired one of my all-time favorite New York Post front pages. It showed a picture of Adams with two headlines. The one at the top left read “Adams Indicted for Turkish Bribes.” The one at the lower right was, “Grand Theft Ottoman”!
NotMax
@Another Scott
Thune may be many things but pliable idiot lapdog is not among them.
Do I trust him as far as I can throw him? No. But he;s not about to pitch what powers are delegated to the Senate wholesale into the trash can.
Layer8Problem
@Miss Bianca: Waiting for someone, any minute now, to explain Why. We. Are. WRONG.
Definitively. Again.
Eric S.
@WaterGirl: you and I and many others need to tell Durban to grow a spine.
Jackie
@Geminid: I agree that Adams is fishing for a pardon and quite possibly a spot in TCFG’s administration. He’s been sucking up to TCFG.
John S.
@WereBear:
Make it easier on yourself and try the Goods Unite Us app. It does all the hard work for you and helps you figure out where not to spend your money.
https://www.goodsuniteus.com/
NotMax
@Layer8Problem
“Jinkies. Don;t open that door, Shaggy!”
:)
Geminid
@Geminid: That should have read “…poll taken a month before Adams was indicted…”
Also, “…permitting process…”
Layer8Problem
@NotMax: I’ve been working so hard trying to be a good sport. 🙂
ETA I don’t even know for sure which was the better path or the best move or even what was going on behind the scenes, but those folks sure did. I haven’t seen certainty like that since I left Catholicism.
John S.
@Layer8Problem:
Who cares if you’re wrong about a theory that is completely unprovable?
You folks can keep thinking that everything would have been sunshine and flowers if Biden had stayed in the race, but nobody will ever know.
TBone
@sab: I saw that Maria Rassa interview as well – good stuff. I wish she had more concrete recommendations and a more fiery way to say them, she is amazing and could yell in my vicinity and I would be grateful for it. She was highly composed.
Omnes Omnibus
@Miss Bianca: July taught me that a lot of people who are ostensibly on my side do not handle adversity well. Also, they don’t understand that sometimes you have side with your guy simply because he’s your guy. Not because you worship them, but because, for better or worse, they are your standard bearer and the fight has already started.
Miss Bianca
@John S.: No, I don’t fucking think everything would have been “sunshine and roses.” What I fucking THINK is that by not sticking with President Biden, by so gracelessly, publicly, HUMILIATINGLY showing themselves to be so willing to shove him out the door with, “Here’s your hat, Grandpa, what’s your hurry”, the Democrats basically conceded the election then and there. What I fucking THINK is that that shit was weak.
That’s what I fucking think.
Kristine
@WereBear: I go to the nearest Trader Joes for specific fave items, but the union-busting efforts I read about recently are upsetting. Is it better to support the employees’ livelihoods by continuing to go there, or to spend my money elsewhere?
I’ve seen in different posts that you shouldn’t boycott unless the employees ask you to (as part of a strike action or other activity). Which is the better path?
Also, is there a large corporation out there anywhere that doesn’t suck in some major way?
raven
@Kristine: There are people here who would have you boycott everything.
Gin & Tonic
This is what I wanted today – yet another thread re-litigating the Biden-in/Biden-out wars.
Be seeing you.
TBone
@Chris Johnson: your comments are so frequently spot on. We’re at war.
Layer8Problem
@John S.: Stick around for a bit, chief, I’m sure Bupalos will be by with something you can agree with.
RaflW
@NotMax: This should be a gift link to a good Atlantic article (I know, but they do bring in decent guest writers!) on why Trump + Johnson’s purported gambit to circumvent the Senate is bogus.
Chris
@eemom:
I’m 90% sure he was hired by accident – he’d just spent the nineties arguing in favor of globalization against what was largely left-wingers at the time, so the NYT assumed he was just another hippie-puncher. So much the better if he identified as a Democrat. I’m sure there’ve been many nights when Sulzberger went to bed cursing the day his rag ever hired Paul Krugman.
Honestly not sure how I feel on the “good for him” front. Seems like there was some value in having at least one reliably liberal pundit with such a major platform. If this is us going from… what, one, to none? That’s not much of a loss, but it still seems like a loss.
El Cruzado
@different-church-lady: There’s quite a few dynamics at work —this kind of mealy-mouthed equivocation is the most US Senate thing around— but an underrated factor is that they don’t want all the death threats that openly opposing Dear Leader would get them.
K-Mo
@Miss Bianca: stop shooting at Democrats please. That’s step 1. Stop mischaracterizing the reasoning of these other democrats (one bad debate GTFOH), that’s step 2.
Step 3, someday we can have an intelligent conversation among ourselves about what went right or wrong about the aborted Biden reelection effort. Today’s not that day.
Soprano2
@different-church-lady: I agree with this. Too many times (cough* Hunter Biden pardon *cough) our electeds go out and complain publicly about something that’s popular with the base because they’re unhappy to be put in the situation of defending it. To me all they had to say was “circumstances change, TCFG nominated someone to head the FBI who literally published an enemies’ list of the people he wants to go after. That changes the calculus on pardoning his son for what were minor criminal offenses” or something like that. Instead, they cry and whine about violation of “norms”, which the past election showed people don’t care about anymore. People want you to stick up for them, not some “norm” that doesn’t serve us anymore.
TBone
@dc: amen
Ruckus
@Daoud bin Daoud:
Most of his life he had to get used to failure. I’m pretty sure it only made him worse – but. He is where he is and hopefully all of us will live to see him gone, gone, what who?
I have no real concept of the message that we should take from this shitstorm, any more than what we did with the last one he presented to us. But for all he doesn’t know, (I know, it’s a huge boat full of foul smelling _ _ _ _.) there is the problem that he was reelected to be himself. And while that isn’t good for really anyone, it is what it is.
scav
@Gin & Tonic: Seek and ye shall find, the searchers for the one easy trick are legion.
TBone
@K-Mo: bingo!
eemom
Surely we can all agree on that?
(contrary to popular belief I’m a peacemaker at heart)
Soprano2
@different-church-lady: I still have to earn a living and take care of my husband, so there’s that.
Soprano2
@WaterGirl: Yep, that’s exactly how I read it.
Chris
@UncleEbeneezer:
Someday I’d really like to meet this hive-minded group-think-infested, BlueNoMatterWho Sheeple I keep hearing about. They don’t sound half-bad.
UncleEbeneezer
@Miss Bianca: If it wasn’t the debate it would’ve been something else. Is it any wonder that the Dem brand is struggling given that every time we actually nominate/elect good people (Obama, Hillary, Biden, Harris) we get a complete feeding-frenzy of bashing from Republicans, The Media, Leftists and Centrists too? We can’t do much about the first two but it’s the latter two who really kill us. If we could ever just learn to STFU and support our candidates we would be unstoppable. Sadly, I doubt we will ever do so, on any sort of consistent basis. Our coalition is plagued with a bunch of people who not only refuse to take our side in a fight, but will scream and holler at anyone who even suggests they should do so.
TBone
@John S.: thank you for that share. I’m a big believer in hitting ’em in the wallet, where it hurts.
Chris
@Omnes Omnibus:
This.
George McClellan was a useless turd, but that wasn’t a reason for deserting the Union Army.
K-Mo
Josh is very astute but I must admit I’m a little lost. Let’s say we don’t want a Russian asset running our intelligence agencies, and we’re very concerned about that. Do we stop that exclusively by going after the low hanging fruit of stopping the drunks sexual predators nominated for other posts, or do we need to pivot towards the actual target at some point?
TBone
@K-Mo: we distract them with bullshit on the low-hanging fruit while getting real evidence to prosecute the traitors in our midst. In my ideal world, anyhow.
dc
For me if it (comment, news item, meme, etc.) if it mobilized me, good; if it demobilizes me, it’s bad and gone from my attention. Here’s a good “outrage flow chart” that I just saw.
Ruckus
@Scott:
You can’t make a sow’s ear out of pure shit. But maybe if enough of an elected member of congress’s constituents hound them to do the correct thing (which is to grow up and be an actual adult that does the best job for the people and the country – not some bullshit asshole) then maybe we can come out of this in a reasonable fashion.
I’m not holding my breath.
UncleEbeneezer
One could argue that this right here is the One Weird Trick to winning.
I think we did a great job of this with Kamala. The unprecedented amount of volunteers, fundraising, enthusiasm etc., were real and important. And the more voters got to know her, the more they liked her. I think with a longer campaign she probably wins. But getting that sort of unity in our coalition, for any Dem is almost impossible to achieve. That’s the problem.
TBone
@dc: that’s great. Good rules of thumb!
Harrison Wesley
@narya: I was there. North of Vine/676. Were you ever a visitor at Frank’s (13th Street just north of 676)? Got myself into a metric assload of trouble there.
trollhattan
This seems cool.
“Academic freedom” in this case means nazis get to nazi openly, without anybody making them feel unwelcome.
Steve LaBonne
@K-Mo: To me that’s a problem for Republicans. Democrats should vigorously oppose all of his picks because they’re all awful and totally unqualified. I don’t think opposition needs to be treated as a limited resource.
Ruckus
@WaterGirl:
Aren’t
mostall of the elected (and hired) political positions supposed to be from the standpoint of the country and it’s inhabitants actual, realistic, legal needs and not from any other point?(Yes I realize that at this time that is in no way a consideration of the upcoming occupier of the WH)
Steve LaBonne
@trollhattan: Won’t be a problem after DOGE eliminates NIH altogether.
TBone
@Harrison Wesley: mum’s the word hahahaha
https://thephillyblunt.com/dirty-franks-the-bar-the-myth-the-legend/
https://hiddencityphila.org/2017/06/behind-the-bar-at-dirty-franks/
TBone
@trollhattan: the original Nazis hated the intelligentsia also too.
Gloria DryGarden
@RaflW: is the Atlantic not to be trusted? They do bring in good writers, often useful new POV, a deeper look, well thought out. What’s the usual objection?
I’m guessing Paul Krugman will be a useful person to follow on blue sky, if he’s there.
comrade scotts agenda of rage
@Omnes Omnibus:
And that lesson is most assuredly lost on those same people because they’re never wrong…in their heads.
Omnes Omnibus
@John S.: We lost with Harris, who I threw myself behind wholeheartedly. It’s quite possible that no one could have won. In that case, supporting the sitting president who was deselected during the primaries had a lot to recommend it. Including the fact that we would not have burned Harris’s future as a presidential candidate. The people who are bothered by this aren’t some bizarre cargo cult.
Miss Bianca
@UncleEbeneezer:
@Omnes Omnibus:
Yes, stick with your guy (or gal) because they’re your guy or gal shouldn’t be such a big, complicated notion to grasp, but apparently, for “our side”, it is.
I dunno – maybe I’m just more conservative than I thought, because for me, loyalty to a leader or boss whose policies and character I generally have a reason to trust and respect is a big value of mine. I don’t feel like trashing them, I don’t feel like scheming or calling for their removal or undermining them in the hopes that that’s going to give me some kind of positional advantage or political power. I’ve seen enough of that kind of behavior in my professional and artistic life and it sickens me.
ETA: And my conviction that that kind of behavior generally weakens the organization and leads to a series of bad leaders/leadership decisions has been generally upheld in my personal observance. Oh well. We shall have to wait and see when it comes to the Democrats, I guess.
cmorenc
@Miss Bianca:
Reality is that the impression of Biden as too mentally declined to serve a 2nd term stuck, even with normies who were still going to vote for him over Trump anyways, and the odds of his losing seemed prohibitive to everyone except folks like his fans in here. Biden went into that debate already a bit behind in voter preferences, and the tactical purpose of a June debate was for Biden to win the performance contrast with Trump, and to most of the public he did not. The value of actual reality (such as Biden’s substantive accomplishments) in the past presidential campaign is overrated, unfortunately, in a time when social media memes rule. The problem with the June debate is Trump got a pass for his performance only because of the contrast. Had the Biden in the June debate been the Biden who shredded Paul Ryan as an empty shell, or even the Biden at the SOTU address back in January, the public impression would have been dramatically different, but with the caveat that in the Sept debate with Harris, a strong majority of the public did perceive that Harris trounced Trump and that his range of resposnes was quite limited, and it still did not change too many votes.
A better criticism is why the Hell didn’t the media accurately portray Trump as at least equally or more mentally compromised than how they portrayed Biden, and why the media so egregiously mischaracterized the positive recovery and state of the economy or other Biden Admin accomplishments. That’s what is more than anything, responsible for Harris never being able to move the needle of voter preferences the low single digits (as in 2%) she needed to pull out the win in November. Neither Biden nor Harris could overcome the shitstorm of social media propaganda and MSM malfeasance, despite having 46-48% of the vote always leaning in their favor.
TBone
Gotta go put on pants, gah! Plumber arriving “in a few minutes.”
Miss Bianca
@cmorenc: I do absolutely agree with you on all points, alas.
What we do about the feckless/reckless/hugely overfunded and overzealous forces ranged against us, I don’t know yet.
zhena gogolia
So true. Witness the pardon freakout.
Harrison Wesley
@TBone: No no no. I loved Dirty Frank’s, but that’s south of Broad Street (around Pine?). This was another Frank’s. Used to go to Dirty Frank’s on Christmas Day; only bar open then that I knew of.
Layer8Problem
@cmorenc: So, feels, vibes. Maybe we need more psy-ops quality work like the Mercers and Cambridge Analytica or whatever they call themselves now do? I mean you can’t argue with success, right?
zhena gogolia
@Miss Bianca: I agree with every word of this.
John S.
@Miss Bianca:
That’s great. But your theories are just that, and they have precisely jack shit to do with where we actually find ourselves in this moment of time.
John S.
@Layer8Problem:
Whatever that even means. You people with your strange clique fetishes.
John S.
@TBone:
Me too. And I’ve been using this app for a few weeks now. It’s pretty good.
Miss Bianca
@John S.: You have no fucking idea whether or not my theories have anything to do with the situation we currently find ourselves in. If they are right, they have a shit-ton to do with it. That’s just your way of saying, “shut up shut up shut up.”
I’m not even going to waste a “fuck you” on you. Oh wait – I just did.
John S.
@Omnes Omnibus:
I didn’t say they were a cargo cult. But this constant fixation on what could have been is not useful or productive.
Melancholy Jaques
@Jeffg166:
Everything he says or does, every day of his life, is a test to see what he can get away with.
TBone
Sour grapes yield only vinegar.
different-church-lady
@Miss Bianca: @UncleEbeneezer: “I dunno, winning elections just feels wrong somehow… like, we’re selling out, man…”
different-church-lady
@TBone: I’ll make lemonade when someone gives me water and sugar in addition to the lemons.
Kayla Rudbek
@John S.: I second this recommendation
John S.
@Miss Bianca:
Go rage if you must. Whatever gets you through your day. If you think what you’re doing is healthy, then keep on doing it.
And go fuck yourself, too. 😊
TBone
@John S.: I’ll use it before any purchase all of the time and do my best to support Dems with my purchasing power. I like this announcement, especially:
Layer8Problem
@Miss Bianca: I should have mentioned, he says “Fuck you” a lot.
Emily B.
@Gloria DryGarden: Yep, Krugman is on Bluesky. Seems pretty much at home there.
different-church-lady
@Jackie:
If that’s true then right now it would make more strategic sense to be sucking up to Biden.
different-church-lady
@TBone: What, you think it’s the actual Doritos themselves that cost five bucks a bag?
John S.
@TBone:
They even have a scoring tool where you can determine if your purchasing preferences align with your politics. It’s a pretty useful app all around.
I’ve posted the link a few times here any time the topic comes up because it really fits the bill nicely.
Omnes Omnibus
@John S.: The point is actually a fairly simple one: Back our people. Defend them and our policies. Don’t “well, actually” things.
John S.
@Layer8Problem:
So do most of the other folks around here, including the members of your clique.
TBone
@different-church-lady: ha!
John S.
@Omnes Omnibus:
That’s a lovely point, but dwelling on what might have been “if only” is not necessarily in service of that notion.
different-church-lady
@John S.: We’ll never know if Biden would have been the comeback kid.
But I can see plainly that being so ridiculously public about yanking the rug out put a major hole in our own bow.
The Audacity of Krope
@different-church-lady: It was also just wrong on merit and morals.
different-church-lady
@Melancholy Jaques: At this point I don’t think he needs to test it anymore.
different-church-lady
@The Audacity of Krope: I sort of agree with you, but we’re stuck in an amoral, non-merit reality.
PJ
@different-church-lady: Adams knows there is no way Biden gives him a pardon. A Trump supporter as Mayor of NYC is useful to Trump, purely on a narcissistic level, because it means he will be officially feted there, which is important to Trump. So it is much more likely that he gets a pardon from Trump. Moreover, I think it is likely that Adams runs next year as a Republican. Will he win? I don’t know, but he’ll get a ton of outside money supporting him.
The Audacity of Krope
@different-church-lady: I refuse to yield to the overly-entitled hordes.
John S.
@different-church-lady:
Of course it did, and that should be one of the lessons learned.
But you can factually argue the point that wavering support for Biden weakened not only him, but Harris as well. There’s data to support that.
That’s very different than claiming “if only” this or that had happened, then the outcome woulda been different.
There’s no way to learn actionable lessons from unprovable theories, no matter how many times people want to scream about it into the void.
Geminid
@different-church-lady: Biden won’t pardon Eric Adams; prosecutors have him wrapped up tight. Trump is Adams’ only hope.
Omnes Omnibus
@John S.: Have you thought that it might have some use going forward? That it might be a lesson we want to take to heart. Because right now I am not convinced the a lot of Democrats have learned what I think is an important lesson. YMMV, but we aren’t merely being cranky here.
The Audacity of Krope
If Democrats won’t stand up for their own elected President, what makes you think they’ll protect anyone else?
Gretchen
I just want to note that the term dumpster fire was originally coined by Driftglass of the Driftglass blog and Professional Left podcast, which is about the only one I can listen to in these fraught times. I think these nominations are like fraternity hazing. Can Trump make the Senators stand outside in their underwear midwinter and sing in front of the sorority house? Make them do it!
Soprano2
@Gin & Tonic: I’ve quit talking about it, because I think at this point it’s a counterproductive discussion. What’s done is done, we need to look toward the future. I know we can learn from the past, but not if it tears us apart.
Ohio Mom
@Kristine: “Also, is there a large corporation out there anywhere that doesn’t suck in some major way?”
There are a few —Penzys comes to mind — but for most of your necessities, nope, they all suck.
Kroger’s, which is based here in Cincinnati and is the 900 pound gorilla (or whatever the expression is) of this area, is unionized but their workers look miserable to me. At Trader Joe’s, they are unfailingly cheery. Maybe they’d be even more unhappy at Kroger’s without a union, and maybe even happier at Trader Joe’s with one.
Each store has a set of things I need that the other one doesn’t.
I also frequent a small mom-and-pop produce store in my neighborhood, they are all cheery. But after hearing Satby go on about how right-wing the small farmers at her local farmer’s market are, I don’t know how virtuous it is to buy from them either. Except that most of their stuff tastes better than the produce at Kroger’s or Trader Joe’s.
I don’t think there is an easy answer. We all just have to arrange our lives in ways that feel like reasonable trade-offs we can live with. That will look different for each of us.
Timill
@Gloria DryGarden: @pkrugman.bsky.social
different-church-lady
@K-Mo: You gotta start somewhere.
The Audacity of Krope
@Soprano2: I think it’s important. Too many people, for entirely tactical reasons, have failed to wrestle with the ethics of the matter.
Then they got what they wanted and lost and still act like it was the only way forward and doesn’t merit questioning.
It was a straightforward act of bigotry with a little side of treating the voters as stupid. Democratic primary voters, first and foremost.
Ruckus
@WereBear:
Many of our big name companies are owned, not by individual share holders but by in majority by very wealthy people, who think that they must be the top of humanity – look how much MONEY they have. And they keep making more by owning those companies that often end up being, in many ways, the companies that sell what we want or need. And they often buy out competition so that they own the marketplace. It’s possible that it’s capitalism bought by the wealthy few, to get even wealthier, because of course money is the most important thing in the world, humanity be damned.
different-church-lady
Can I propose two things?
1) Continuing the argument about whether sticking with Biden would have been better is indeed futile.
2) Continuing to point out that IT’S BAD TO PUBLICLY KICK OUR OWN CANDIDATES IN THE NUTS is rather vital.
John S.
@Omnes Omnibus:
Dude, I’ve been hanging around this place since back when Cole was still a Republican, so I know this place is full of cranks who are not just cranky.
Ultimately, I suspect most of us want the same outcome. Where we all seem to disagree is the means to get there. I absolutely see the value in learning from past mistakes. I’m a huge fan of the scientific method!
But in fairness, I need to remember some people are still very emotional about the state of affairs, and rightfully so. I’m terrified of what the future holds for my autistic teenager and diabetic teenager. But I’m trying to focus on the things I can control and change.
Everyone has their own process.
TBone
This is politics, not a freakin’ cotillion. We’re gonna get our hair mussed if we’re doing it right. My druthers are pointed at the fascists.
Baud
@different-church-lady:
What is our candidate takes a position that I don’t like, or fails to announce a position I agree with sufficient dispatch?
John S.
@Soprano2:
Yeah, I guess that’s where my head is at as well. I should probably just ignore folks who are not likeminded on this at the moment.
sentient ai from the future
so, another small win that i want to share since ive talked freely about this here in the past.
my kiddo’s puberty blocker prescription has now been covered by insurance and will be shipped out presently.
i had to drag my less-affirming coparent into family court to exert enough pressure to get them to even consider moving forward with gender-affirming care, they had set up therapy with some wackaloon detransition person of some infamy in trans circles.
not on my watch, motherfucker.
so now, kiddo is gonna get the medication they have been clamoring for.
what a fuckin relief.
The Audacity of Krope
1 being a rather concrete example of 2, as well as the most recent, is probably the prime reason 1 keeps coming up. That and the utter bigoted pigheadedness of those who wanted 1.
Baud
@TBone: Maybe Dems should sponsor some cotillions as a party building measure.
FelonyGovt
I think Josh Marshall has a really good point. Trump only wanted to be president to stay out of jail and because he likes the trappings of power. He’s old, stupid, and lazy and he decided to appoint those people he thought were most loyal to him, and who he thought would look good on teevee. Republicans are stuck with him but there’s obvious tension, and the more the mutual antagonism comes out, the more dysfunctional their government will be (see their House of Representatives hijinks) and the more Trump’s power diminishes.
JoyceH
You strike out the guy who’s at bat.
Example: When all the headlines were about Gaetz, I was kinda peeved, because I wanted the story to be about Hegseth – and this was well before all the info about the sexual abuse, drunken clownishness, and driving two non-profits into bankruptcy. I was just against him already due to his obvious lack of qualification for the Secdef position.
But hey, Gaetz went down in flames and NOW Hegseth is at bat. Meanwhile, while the news was all about Gaetz paying minors for sex, Jane Mayer over at the New Yorker was doing hero’s work and uncovering the whole sordid story about Hegseth. And now it’s his turn – he’s doing television spots, he’s swanking around the corridors of Congress with an entourage taking Very Important Meetings with Very Important Senators – he’s at bat. And the reporters in the corridors are asking about his drunkenness, sexual abuse, and financial mismanagement. So do him now.
I presume someone out there is doing the deep dives so we’ll be ready for whoever’s next – Gabbard or Kennedy or Oz or whoever else has signed up for this clown car parade.
Meanwhile, where’s Trump? Yeah, I know he’s at Mar A Lago, but has he been seen and heard to any real extent since the election? That might be a topic to raise fairly frequently – where’s Trump? Why are they hiding him? Can he speak without a teleprompter? And so on.
comrade scotts agenda of rage
@Gretchen:
As much as I admire and have clipped Driftglass’s stuff over the years, that might not be the case.
The Oxford English Dictionary puts the earliest first usage in a metaphorical sense in 1957 in the Clovis NM News-Journal. That being said, I kinda doubt the OED reads Driftglass so who knows.
You’ll often see references to its “first usage” in a 2003 movie review of the remake of ‘The Texas Chainsaw Massacre’. More recently, there are citations of Mike Wise, former sportswriter at the WaPo using it in 2009.
Now, if there’s a Driftglass quote from waaaaay back where he uses it, I’d love to see it.
PJ
@Miss Bianca:
Going forward, that is the lesson that has to be learned by Democratic elites (and run of the mill Democrats like the chicken littles who comment here). They are way too willing to throw anyone under the bus just because some pundits or big money donors don’t like them. It’s weak shit, and the message it sends – particularly to independents or Never Trumpers – is “Yes, Republicans were right, our guy was terrible, and our policies were wrong.”
People wailed about Biden’s popularity rating (in polls that are incredibly suspect), and one bad debate performance, but Trump won in 2016 and 2024 despite low popularity ratings and despite losing every debate he participated in, whether with Clinton, Biden, or Harris. You cannot win if you do not stay in the race and keep fighting.
Biden may not have won – inflation and disinformation and media opposition may have been too much for any Democrat to overcome – but it would be way better both for the party and the country to stand up for what we believe in – and who we voted for in the primary – and lose with Biden than to lose with someone else on the gamble that “some other Democratic politician” would somehow miraculously attract more votes.
Soprano2
@zhena gogolia: I saw someone said they had gotten more push notifications about the Hunter Biden pardon than about all of TCFG’s nominees combined! That tells you pretty much everything you need to know about what the press believes is important.
John S.
@different-church-lady:
#1 is definitely an exercise in futility.
#2 is actionable based on past learning.
I think Martin did a long form comment on this the other day, and how navel gazing is worthless right now and why we should be focused on actionable suggestions or takeaways.
Elizabelle
@Soprano2: Or how cowardly and corrupted they are.
Chris
@UncleEbeneezer:
Agree completely. And the election results seem to show it too: over the last two decades, what’s killed us is that people will turn out to elect a president, then instantly drop off either because things haven’t improved immediately, and/or because things have improved immediately but since they’re not literally perfect that just means we should all start pissing and moaning about all the ways Our Leaders Have Failed Us.
And while this is absolutely traceable to the media and the relentlessly hostile environment it creates, the fact that those liberals and moderates you mention unquestioningly and obediently follow its lead is, at some point, a problem with them. It’s absolutely fucking insane that after 2016, anybody who’s ever voted for a Democrat still considers the New York Times, the Washington Post, CNN, or NPR a reliable source, or anything other than a Republican house organ.
Jackie
@different-church-lady: Adams has been criticizing Biden and making kissy noises to Trump. I don’t see Biden giving two F’s about Adam.
Rollingstone Magazine via RawStory agrees:
https://www.rawstory.com/donald-trump-eric-adams-thirsty/
Another Scott
@Ohio Mom: This is a wise post. Thank you.
Grainger is huge and often has pretty high prices.
Zoro is a huge online newcomer and has substantially better prices.
Zoro is, in fact, actually part of Grainger.
Vitacost is part of Kroger.
Etc., etc.
Commerce is weird because people are weird.
Best wishes,
Scott.
trollhattan
@Jackie: Adams needs to be gone, because Adams. His issues are entirely self-generated.
Soprano2
@The Audacity of Krope: I think it’s important too, but right now everything is too raw for anyone to learn anything from it. I was against Biden dropping out, then when I saw how much energy came out for Harris I kind of changed my mind. Biden’s popularity was at 40% on Election Day, I suspect he wouldn’t have gotten as many votes as Harris did (we’ll never know). The other thing that might have happened was a lot more Republicans winning seats in the House, which would have been a disaster for us. I agree, though, that it’s unknowable what would have happened. I know that people who do focus groups said that for a year before the debate voters were telling them they thought Biden was too old to run for re-election, so that’s not anyone’s imagination.
The Audacity of Krope
@Jackie: Adams, as far as I can tell, is an inveterate liar and probably a criminal (I trust the justice department on this and there’s his whole Republican-adjacency).
Of course he thinks Trump is his better option. Who pardoned Blagojevich? Who called off the first Menendez investigation.
Trump supports corruption on a bipartisan basis.
different-church-lady
@John S.:
It’s actionable as long as people are willing to engage with it. “Yeah, well it’s stupid to think Biden would have won” is both immaterial and deflection. I don’t think Biden would have won. But it’s still idiotic as all fuck to project that out the electorate in the middle of an election season.
Ruckus
@JoyceH:
Can he speak without a teleprompter?
You left out – can he speak with a teleprompter……
He can yell and scream and whimper but can he actually speak coherently? Which of course would be a first….
Tony G
To me, a key point about Trump is that, although he’s very dangerous, he’s also very stupid and incompetent; a “man” with the emotional maturity of a four-year-old. I think that, not some clever plan, was the reason for the Gaetz and Hegseth debacles. Trump’s stupidity might be the thing that saves us all.
RaflW
@Gloria DryGarden: The Atlantic is a very mixed bag. I wouldn’t say they can’t be trusted, I don’t think they’re liars, but a fair bit of the content is steeped in a both-sides view that is a disservice to the struggles at hand.
The managing editor is fundamentally conservative (not a right winger, but not interested in progressivism), and while I think there’s future value in a restoration of establishment conservatism, now is not the time for chin-stroking think pieces.
Tom Nichols is a pretty good indicator of what I think is The Atlantic’s problem: He’s smart and he understands that Trumpism is very bad. But he needs to burnish his cred by punching hippies part of the time, and for g-ds sake, hippies are not a threat to the American system. At all.
geg6
@Miss Bianca:
Come sit by me.
Layer8Problem
@different-church-lady: “I don’t think Biden would have won. But it’s still idiotic as all fuck to project that out the electorate in the middle of an election season.”
This is valid. This actually works with the facts on the ground at the time and was and is legitimately debatable. But the screaming at the time was not that at all.
Geminid
Events in Syria are happening fast, and Middle East Eye reporter Ragip Soylu has been posting about some of them. From two hours ago:
Soylu also posted this from Tehran-based journalist Fereshteh Sadeghi:
This tracks with a Middle East Eye article about how powerful Iraqi militia, including some backed by Iran, have declared they will sit out the civil war in Syria.
Soylu also reported that rebels have taken over the southwest city of Sweida near the border with Jordan, after government forces pulled out. Sweida is a predominantly Druze city of 95,000 people, and is about 50 miles south of Damascus (I think).
The Audacity of Krope
I saw the energy around Harris too. I loved her and always did. I never stopped viewing the decision as wrong, however. At some point, winning is not the point.
Certainly now that that trigger was pulled and we lost anyway, winning is super extra not the point.
It was a scummy thing to do promoted by scumbags and I will not support any Democrat ever again who supported this or played coy or even remained silent.
different-church-lady
Lemme see if I can make this more clear for some y’all:
* Gaetz’s support collapsed without anyone in his own party publicly speaking out against him.
* Biden’s support collapsed EXTREMELY publicly.
Which party was smarter about handling a bad situation?
geg6
@K-Mo:
The irony of this comment, especially Point #1 is *chef’s kiss*.
Gloria DryGarden
@RaflW: thx
Chris
@cmorenc:
Ultimately, my problem with the whole “dump Biden” ragegasm this past summer was that it pretty much refused to engage with the extent to which the entire situation – right up to the notion that Biden had somehow promised that he’d only serve one term and was doing something incredibly underhanded by not doing that – had been manufactured out of thin air by malignant propaganda, mostly from entities that aren’t even recognized as Republican outlets. And more importantly, the fact that these entities had done the exact same thing again and again and again (2016, 2004, 2000), and would have done the same thing to any candidate we nominated.
The entire thing was approached as if the problem was that we as a party or Biden as a leader had simply made bad decisions and we wouldn’t be in this place if they’d made other ones. As opposed to the actual problem, which was “the zone is being flooded with shit to a degree that’s getting impossible to deal with, and any other candidate we could’ve picked would be here now with the exact same poll numbers and the exact same problem.” The lesson here was not ‘don’t run old people’ any more than the lesson in 2016 was ‘don’t run people with personal email accounts,’ because in both cases, that wasn’t the actual problem.
It may well be that this is an unsolvable problem, but refusing to recognize it sure as hell doesn’t encourage me to believe we’re any closer to solving it.
Chris
@Geminid:
Losing Assad wouldn’t exactly console me from everything that’s happened in 2024, but it’d at least be a step in that direction.
Ruckus
@John S.:
navel gazing is worthless
As it always is. Although if it’s the right navel…..
As for actionable suggestions or takeaways – did you have anything in mind?
This is a situation that does not come around very often in politics and somewhat obviously has merit to some in this country. Why is beyond understanding but they do. Maybe it’s hate, maybe power, maybe it’s because shitforbrains has money, maybe who the hell knows.
WaterGirl
@Jackie: Speaking of incandescent anger, I am suddenly experiencing it after reading the news you shared!
Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony
@Chris:
Agree completely.
geg6
@Steve LaBonne:
This. Any thing else is a complete misunderstanding of what Josh is saying. I just listened to his podcast and, yes, oppose them all vigorously. Know some will get through but every head we chop off weakens him. Especially those who would be in the bigger, more important to security, law and foreign policy cabinet offices.
trollhattan
@Tony G:
Could be.
My concerns revolve around Trump 2.0 making no effort to bring the occasional competent person into the administration. Like, Gen Mattis, chosen solely because his nickname is Mad Dog and Donny loved that. As SecDef he was one of those mythical “guard rails” and Donny sure as hell isn’t making that mistake ever again. Once Hesgeth flames out, he’ll pick somebody as awful, just less rapey.
The entire width and breadth of 2.0’s administration comprises rabid, greedy, sociopathic True Believers and I fucking dread what they will do, while Donny sits in a corner dribbling pudding from the corner of his yap.
WaterGirl
@Eric S.: I will if you will.
trollhattan
@Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony:
I wonder if he has a spider hole prepared? TBF it would be a very nice bespoke spider hole.
different-church-lady
@trollhattan:
It’s a shame we don’t do two-part rotating tags.
WaterGirl
@Gin & Tonic: And here I thought I had put up a post that might shine at least a tiny bit of light on how to move forward.
Kay
We have a great story to tell on Social Security. Twenty years ago another GOP President, GWB was reelected in November and proposed destroying Social Security in January (2005)
Bush lied to them just like Trump lied and Trump cultists HATE the Bushes.
In 2006 we had a Dem sweep.
Geminid
@trollhattan: I’m hoping Eric Adams and Robert Menendez share a wing in a federal prison. George Santos could join them; I believe Santos has a February sentencing date.
Throw in Texas Congressman Henry Cuellar and they’ll have enough for a game of bridge, maybe 500.
Dorothy A. Winsor
PJ
@The Audacity of Krope:
One thing this election showed is that, in the US now, “energizing the base” – increasing volunteers and massively increasing donations (and outspending the opponent) is simply insufficient to win. That does nothing to get independents and Never Trumpers to vote for Democrats, and unfortunately, we need those votes to win. Of the 7 million Biden voters who stayed at home this year, I think most of them were not Democrats, but these independents and Never Trumpers.
artem1s
Not only has everyone (MSM) forgotten what wreck his first term was, HE’S forgotten how miserable he was. Every time he was made to reverse course, came up empty on a promise, wasn’t able to change the course of a hurricane with a sharpie, had to announce infrastructure week again, wasn’t able to trade a used K-Car and a PTBNL for Greenland – he got even more miserable. With every pointed finger and smirk and laugh behind his back he pouted and slouched around even more. He spent all his time at MAL because he couldn’t stand the way all of DC was laughing at him.
I say let’s all remind him and MTCFMA.
geg6
@John S.:
If it was a mistake (and I said at the time I thought it was) then there is value in exploring why it was and how we avoid it the next time. If it wasn’t a mistake, you need to show me why because your way, which those of you in the Joe must go camp insisted was absolutely the magic trick to win, didn’t work either.
different-church-lady
@Dorothy A. Winsor: Multitasking! What a concept!
Kristine
@Ohio Mom:
Yup.
Buying. Recycling. Like with voting—it’s one person at a time and you hope you make a difference but boy it feels like constant swimming against the current.
Kristine
@sentient ai from the future: Happy for you both. Best wishes.
different-church-lady
@Kristine: For me it’s been reduced to merely a personal integrity thing: “Not using that plastic cup isn’t going to save the planet, but at least I’ll be able to tell St. Peter that I tried.”
Kay
I think we erred in drawing a distinction between Republicans and MAGA – its not true. Republicans were radicals well before 2016. Anyway, it can be remidied.
Start campaigning on the Bush GOP again. MAGA hates them and liberals hate them. Project 2025 is far Right GOP economic policy. Its no different than GWB.
Ruckus
@Chris:
Most people have no idea how people think or even that they do.
I was a mental health counselor decades ago and most every client I had fell into that category. I had no idea how some of them made it through the day. They seemed to manage, maybe not all that well, but they did manage. Showing them how to contemplate and make decisions was mostly the answer.
Omnes Omnibus
@WaterGirl: I think that those of us who are saying that the lesson of 2024 is that we need to back our guy are offering something that will benefit us going forward. It isn’t One Weird Trick, but it’s useful advice IMO.
FelonyGovt
@artem1s: Your comment reminded me of the time he appeared at a Washington Nationals baseball game and was booed roundly, and looked like he was about to cry. I’ve watched that video with great enjoyment many, many times.
The Audacity of Krope
@Kay: I think we erred I’m drawing a distinction between our President’s great record in office and his poor reception one night on TV.
Your rampant disagreement makes any advice from you suspect.
Kay
Does anyone know why the US Air force uses a Cranberries song about The Troubles in Ireland in promotional clips on social media?
“In your head, in your head you are dying”
I love the song but am baffled how it ended up used like this.
Omnes Omnibus
@Kay: No one knows why the Air Force does things.
John S.
@geg6:
Ah, I see you have made an inference that I never stated. I’m not in the “Joe must go” camp. I’m not in any camp, other than that of being a lifelong liberal Democrat.
I’m not going to prove something I never asserted in the first place. My entire bone of contention is simple: Stop re-litigating what coulda shoulda woulda been. Focus on what actually happened, and use that information to make adjustments going forward if we want a different outcome. Or to put it a different way…
DO look at mistakes made, at the cause and effect of undesirable outcomes and formulate new action plans meant to achieve better results.
DON’T make claims of what might have happened if only, or presume that a different course of action would have resulted in a better outcome.
different-church-lady
@Kay: The distinction only matters if one thinks there are still persuadables.
We can reasonably argue about whether there are, how numerous they are, and whether it would tip the balance.
But if we’re ever going to persuade them, then what we really need to stop doing is (a) talking about them in the third person and (b) contrasting them with the deplorables in the same breath.
BAD (a): “Most of them suck, but some are just stressed.”
BAD (b): “Most of them suck, but not you, you’re not like them.”
GOOD: “We get that you’re stressed. But we want to make it better and he’s just lying about it.”
Geminid
@Chris: Last night CNN posted a very interesting interview of Syrian opposition leader Mohammed al-Jolani, whose HTS militia has taken a leading role among the opposition forces. Jolani has a history with the fanatical ISIS terror group but maintains he has learned better over the last 8 years, and now believes Syria must have a democratic state where minority rights are protected. That would include the Alawites who form Assad’s power base as well as Syria’s Christians, Kurds and Druze.
So Jolani is at least saying the right things; I guess we’ll get to see over the next few weeks if he really means them and if his militia allies will follow his lead.
Kay
@The Audacity of Krope:
Yeah tell me again how mean the Harris supporters were to you- all.
Big babies who like to dish it out but can’t take it. Didn’t most of you say you were leaving? What happened to that?
I still think I was right. Biden was an UNPOPULAR President. I know that upsets you but it us true. You can’t fucking win polling at 30% and they ALL knew it.
Jackie
@trollhattan: Absolutely. He and Menendez are two birds of a feather. Rotten to the core.
geg6
@John S.:
Martin is wrong. It is not in any way navel gazing to try to figure out how to learn from mistakes. If we never reflect on what we did wrong and why we did it, we never learn anything. Which is the fucking problem with my party and too many of the rank and file. Too fucking arrogant to do such soul searching. I’m not interested in emulating Barbara Bush and putting it all out of my beautiful mind.
Sometimes I really can’t stand my fellow travelers in the Democratic Party.
different-church-lady
@Omnes Omnibus: It’s not THE lesson of ’24, but it’s certainly a major one.
Ruckus
@Soprano2:
As someone not all that far behind Joe Biden in age I get the point. And to see that someone with enough brains and life experiences to do the job of president is not in any way djt. We all need to dig in because I’d bet that a lot of his “decisions” are going to actually be made by someone else. That hole in his back is going to be filled by some puppet operator(s) while he does their bidding. I’m not expecting a great show. I just hope it doesn’t turn into a 24 hour a day shit show. But I’m also not expecting my wish to be granted. Or even close.
So I’ll ask the question, how do we march on?
Who cleans up after/during the shit show that is extremely unavoidable?
BlueGuitarist
@different-church-lady:
have you seen the Will Santino illustration of overwhelmed by lemons?
non-Twitter link to image:
https://medium.com/be-unique/when-life-gives-you-lemons-return-them-and-dont-hide-your-emotions-56b56665cdff
Kay
@The Audacity of Krope:
Are you trying to get me banned again? Give up. John is never going to ban me for disagreeing with you. Balloon Juice has never been an exclusive salon. Sorry.
And you “STFU” I don’t like your comments either but I’m not a seventh grader so I mostLy ignore them. You should “pie me” Isn’t that what you special snowflakes do when anyone disagrees with you?
John S.
@geg6:
That’s obviously your opinion. I can’t speak for Martin, but for myself you have misrepresented my position, and I said as much above.
I hope that alleviates any misunderstanding.
different-church-lady
@Ruckus:
Turn into?
The Audacity of Krope
@Kay: Supporting Harris meant supporting her judgment, which meant supporting Biden. Instead, in your haste, you tied her hands and sent her out to deliberately get covered in loser stink.
It’s almost like you used her. I wonder what it is about her and you that makes that acceptable in your eyes. Only accepting submissions using the word “black.”
ETA: And I only pie for libel or else Schrodinger’s Cat, who agrees with me on this, would have been pied years ago.
Kay
@The Audacity of Krope:
Harris was a Hail Mary because everyone knew Biden would lose. I’d do it again in a heartbeat.
WereBear
@Kristine: I use real cashiers, for instance. I’ll ask a local store to order it for me, not using Wal-Mart unless I’m with a friend. I don’t buy anything. Ever since they started the random hours practices, so no one got benefits.
Because its also about business practices. And dear heavens customer service.
Since Iherb was bought and ruined, I use Amazon for supplements. But all the small businesses I tried as an alternative were scams.
So Amazon for cheapness and sometimes the local health food store to keep them in business. And they treat me right.
different-church-lady
@BlueGuitarist: Thanks, that second graphic is the hardest I’ve laughed in a long time!
K-Mo
@Omnes Omnibus: My impressions from what I’ve seen so far:
1. Harris was brought down her association with Biden who was very unpopular among low-info voters. She had her pros (ran a great conventional campaign) and cons (misogynistic drag) but the biggest problem was a huge inflation hangover and a bad popular understanding of it.
2. Biden would have done much worse than Harris and this would have had repercussions down ballot. Instead of 53-47 and 220-215 in Congress we’re talking 56-44 and 235-200. I don’t see how Biden could have done better than Harris did.
3. It’s possible no one could have done better, as you say. The only plausible scenario I see is if Biden declared much earlier his intention not to run and we had a longer run up to a candidate who presented a much cleaner break with Biden.
I say all this while agreeing with those who think Biden’s actual record of governing has been great, with a handling of the economy that was darn near miraculous. But the voters don’t think that way.
Ruckus
@Omnes Omnibus:
As a veteran from another branch I’m going to add “No one knows why the Navy does things.” Including some officers while they are doing whatever it is.
John S.
@Ruckus:
Others have probably said the same, but for the moment I think we just focus on the little things we can control or effect the outcomes of. Look out for each other and the most vulnerable amongst us. And do a lot more listening and a lot less talking until things come into sharper focus in a few months.
Patience is my favorite virtue.
different-church-lady
@K-Mo:
I’m so old I can remember when the last minute switch was a strategic advantage because nobody could pin anything on her.
The Audacity of Krope
@Kay: Harris was forced into a bad position by a bunch of white donorcrats.
WereBear
@John S.: That looks great. Thanks!
Another Scott
@different-church-lady: Combustible Lemons!!11
:-)
Best wishes,
Scott.
different-church-lady
@Kay: But would you do it the same way?
EDIT FOR PHRASING: Sorry, I shouldn’t phrase it personally — what I really mean is, “Should we have done it the way it was done?” I certainly wouldn’t want to again.
Kay
@The Audacity of Krope:
You have no earthy idea what Harris thought. Obviously she can’t come and say the President is unpopular and will lose.
Blame Joe Biden for running again. It was stupid and selfish.
Also, I’d prefer not to talk to you. At some point I’m going to hit you back and you will whine about how mean I am. Leave me alone. You don’t fight fair.
John S.
@WereBear:
👍🏻
The Audacity of Krope
Go ahead.
I know what decisions she made publicly. That’s what I’m concerned about. That’s why I’m telling you she knows better than you.
And again, white folk used the black lady because they were afraid and didn’t care about the repercussions to her or anyone else.
Kay
@The Audacity of Krope:
More bullshit. Biden was polling poorly with African Americans – the worst EVER for a D President.
BlueGuitarist
@WaterGirl:
yes you did and thank you so much for doing so!
Chris
@Geminid:
Yeah, I noticed that the insurgents were from jihadist backgrounds and promising to respect minorities, which, as one of my friends who follows the region closely put it, “I didn’t have on my bingo card.” I’m skeptical as fuck that they mean it, though I guess we’ll see.
It really says something that nobody is rallying to save Assad’s bacon, though. Ever since the rise of Daesh, to the extent that Assad has a card to play to rally people, it’s that – “you might not like me, but if it’s me or those guys, don’t you prefer me?” Apparently, it’s not working anymore. Even the Kurds, who have a lot of bad blood with the jihadists and had some sort of understanding with Assad, are sitting this one out. I don’t know if they honestly believe that the jihadis have changed, or if they don’t think they have the power to save Assad anyways… or if they’re just all so sick of Assad they’re willing to roll the dice on what comes next.
The Audacity of Krope
@Kay: And polls are immutable constants of life, are they?
Also you clearly have no grip of the moral implications or how that was even bad if we won, which we didn’t anyway.
You’re as unprincipled and lawless as any Republican.
geg6
@John S.:
Well, I don’t see anyone claiming that those who consider it was mistake were sure of a particular outcome if he stayed in. That is more likely a claim of certainty made by the others who couldn’t bum rush him out the door fast enough. I do know, however, that it signaled to some in the electorate that the Dems are panicky, disloyal wimps who don’t have anyone’s back in a fight. There is no arguing that.
The Audacity of Krope
Ding ding ding ding 🔔. We have a winner.
K-Mo
@different-church-lady: I was hoping that would be the case, right up until 11/5.
Now that we’ve had the election and the pertinent facts have started to roll in, I can see that wouldn’t have been a winning strategy (if it were a strategy).
different-church-lady
@K-Mo: Until people start filling in the ovals everything is just a guess.
The Audacity of Krope
Vote for Democrats, we’ll fight for you as long as the polls support it.
different-church-lady
@The Audacity of Krope: Vote for Democrats: we’ll fight for you, unless you have doubts about us.
Steve LaBonne
@Chris: Islamists have played that game before and it always turns out to be bullshit. We’ll see this time.
Warblewarble
While attention is focused on the headline grabbing tRUMP nomiminees , the republican termites will be embedded in what will be left of any Federal agencies, Republicans are drooling at the prospect of establishing the Thousand Year Reich and now believe it is within reach, Nobody had heard of Eichmann when the Nazi’s first came to power.
Another Scott
@K-Mo: Thanks for your perspective.
I’m still in the “I don’t know what to think yet” camp. Biden has been a great president, especially given the circumstances (here and even abroad IMHO), but too much of the electorate didn’t see it that way.
Made me look.
RollingStone.com (from November 13):
Is he right? Maybe. Dunno.
Inflation gets 4 hits in the article. Racism 0. Misogyny 0. Ukraine 0. Gaza 0. He’s obviously looking in his own garden; maybe he’s missing some things, maybe not.
Maybe he’s right that American voters are fickle and just want to throw everyone out all the time. But the actual House and Senate seems to stay pretty close while we’re oscillating in the White House.
I do think he’s right that the press spent way, way too much time normalizing MAGA and Trumpism.
Maybe 2026 and 2028 will be different.
FWIW.
Thanks.
Best wishes,
Scott.
Jackie
@trollhattan: In my devious plotting, I visualize Hegseth getting thrown overboard, Pudd’n Boots gets the job and confirmed… then a few months later Pudd’n Boots either does something to enrage TCFG – or one is manufactured…
TCFG fires Pudd’n Boots, and exacts revenge for Pudd’n Boots daring to run against him during the primaries… and Pudd’n Boots political career is destroyed. <gleefully rubbing hands>
The Audacity of Krope
@different-church-lady: Bruh, I have nothing left but doubts. I’ve been voting a straight D ticket, for practicality reasons, since 2006.
I regret everything.
Also to add; vote for Democrats, we’ll fight for you, as long as we’ve determined enough of your community fights for us.
geg6
@The Audacity of Krope:
Correction:
Vote for Democrats, we’ll fight for you as long as the
pollsmedia support it.Sister Golden Bear
@sentient ai from the future: Relieved and happy for the both of you!
The Audacity of Krope
Tomato, tomahto. The polls are just mainstream media viewers reading their own narrative back to them.
different-church-lady
@Another Scott:
I’ve seen this argument made a few times, with numbers to back it up. I’d like to believe it’s true, because it’s got more hope in it. But I’m also afraid it might be a story we’re using to comfort ourselves.
Fake Irishman
@Kay:
all right!
I like this idea of talking about what we have in the Democratic Party that works.
we have a lot of great stories to tell. It’s on all of us — not just our leaders to tell them.
why are we Democrats? It’s not just because we’re afraid of Republicans.
let’s tell some of these stories, both personal and broader.
sure beats yelling at each other about how we all suck.
PJ
@Kay: In 2016, Trump won with a favorability rating of 36%. At the time of the election this year, Biden had a 37% favorability rating. https://news.gallup.com/poll/329384/presidential-approval-ratings-joe-biden.aspx
Chris
@different-church-lady:
The problem is that “moving away from the political process” is “moving right,” just in a slightly more roundabout way.
Ultimately, the right wants a dictatorship. They don’t want engaged citizens, unless it’s the citizens personally loyal to them. That’s how Putin’s run Russia for the last quarter-century; him and his patronage network ruling over a sea of nihilistic apathy.
Gloria DryGarden
@WereBear: not Trader Joe’s. I missed something.
different-church-lady
@Chris: Effectively, you’re correct. But it’s more comforting to think it’s because of laziness or cynicism, and not because it’s a conscious desire. And it allows for more possibility. “We let you down” is fixable. “You want this horror” is something else entirely.
TBone
Ya can’t punch Nazis if your navel is too fascinating.
Gloria DryGarden
@Fake Irishman: amen
Chris
@different-church-lady:
That’s true.
tam1MI
Vote for Democrats, we’ll fight for you until George Clooney tells us not to.
Geminid
@Geminid: Ragip Soylu is London-based Middle East Eye’s Istanbul bureau chief, and today he posted about a couple matters unrelated to the Syrian civil war. One was:
Soylu posted a picture of Fidan greeting a Hamas leader and and another of the two sitting at one end of a room with 10 more Hamas officials sitting along the sides. There has been a running controversy over whether or not Hamas has moved its headquarters from Doha to Turkiye.
Fidan is in Qatar’s capital Doha for a previously planned conference. Foreign Ministers from Iran and Russia are also attending and are expected to confer with Fidan about a resolution of the civil war in Syria.
Also from Ragip Soylu:
The Audacity of Krope
@tam1MI: Vote for Democrats, we’ll fight for you as long as a livable climate is something you can wait a couple centuries to build back better.
Gloria DryGarden
@Kristine: thank you for these questions. It’s tricky to know what to do.
Gloria DryGarden
@sab: sounds illuminating. I’ll look for it.
How some country fought back and turned it around… we need the playbook.
AM in NC
I’ve been calling Thom Tillis repeatedly, asking his about different nominees. The staffers sound very uncomfortable when you tell them the specific reasons for why you object and then ask why these facts aren’t disqualifying.
I remind the staffers, they too are responsible for all this. And as someone who values US NatSec, I am horrified that they would consider Hegseth or Gabbard to be qualified for ANY NatSec position. Also, when did serial sexual predation become a GOP requirement for a position in our government?
Tillis owns all of these votes – he took an oath to protect and defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic; he didn’t take an oath to do whatever GOP Senate Committees say to do, or what Trump says to do.
Just spitting mad, but bringing the facts to the staffers to support my justified anger.
Ruckus
@Kay:
I believe that Joe Biden had two issues.
First he’s a democrat. So being on the correct side of politics puts a lot of people off. Second he’s old. I’m not that far behind him in the age bracket bit and get the concept of being old. Those respect and equality bits. But being old is two things, actual physical stuff – and that varies from person to person. I know people younger than me that have told me I must be younger than them. I’m often 5-10 yrs older than they are. On rare occasion maybe 15 yrs. I still walk several miles a week. And mental stuff. If you want to feel old you can, if you want to stay active, often you can. Sure it will – and does, catch up with you. But quite often state of mind is the main issue, not actual age.
zhena gogolia
@different-church-lady: Bingo.
WTFGhost
Random note: if you won’t bust on your opponent being a fat baldie with shoe lifts, then you’re ignoring how all power is unitary. People like mean. Dems wish we didn’t, Republicans wish they liked it more, but, mean is funny, and it works.
All power is unitary = please, if we’re busting on a political figure, the way a satirist might draw them, let’s not bee *too* purist, lest we get stung by our own purity, by disarming us of an entire branch of humor, just because it would be mean if applied *generally*.
Mean works; all power is unitary = we need to find mean, even mean that we’d say is too, too, mean, and use it effectively. Doesn’t mean everyone’s the Rude Pundit – just, if you get a few Rude Pundit-level discoursers, don’t pile on too hard, too high, if they’re legitimately being funny.
“Trouble with Trump is, you gotta kiss his ass. HOW DO YOU FIND IT UNNER ALL THAT BELLY? And Trump’s saying ‘nope, that’s my belly button. Good luck!’ which tells you *how* ass they are kissing, if you know what I mean, and I think you do.”
Yes, fatophobic. Only crudely funny, but, if you shouted down it’s bad points too much, you might see people who’d been hiding laughter agree with you… but then, they stop laughing, and otherwise engaging, because most people are thinking of crude insults they don’t even want to *say*, if busting Trump’s balls (we might need to find the jar he keeps them in, first…) gets shouted down as sexist.
Or, like Colbert, pointing out Trump’s mouth seemed like Putin’s cock holster. The homophobia wasn’t the point – Colbert wouldn’t *ever* make a joke about Trump’s mouth being a cock holster for someone with whom he’s on the down-low, unless that person was a member of a foreign government, and *then*, only because Trump was running for office.
Call it out – but remember, mean works, all power is unitary, DON’T BLUNT YOUR WEAPONS. We need “and when they find the belly button, it stinks so much, they figure they must have found it, but NOOOOO, that’s 25 years of belly button lint!”
Martin
@Miss Bianca: But isn’t that also an indictment for voters not being given a proper primary so they could express their views in a more suitable way? That’s not necessarily a hit on Biden (though in my case I think it is since he at least insinuated only being a 1 term president and I think he should have stuck with that because I didn’t think once Dobbs landed that a devout catholic male was our best messenger) but all parties put their thumb on the scale for the incumbent for reelection because the party is run by the incumbent. That’s routine. There really is no other mechanism given to voters apart from what happened, to the extent that there was a sizable ‘no confidence’ vote during the primary and participation was understandably terrible because the outcome was predetermined.
I said in an earlier post that I used to use ‘problems have a way of getting solved’ as a threat. If Democrats didn’t want Biden, and the appropriate remedy of primarying him is effectively denied, they’ll come up with an inappropriate remedy, which is what happened. And that sucks – it was bad all around.
But you can’t really deny that Dems weren’t feeling it with Biden even before the debate. Small dollars were way down, volunteers were way down. He had months to build that up and it wasn’t happening and it took all of 48 hours after Harris entered for those problems to get solved. Dems just wanted a different candidate, and Dean Phillips wasn’t it either.
different-church-lady
@WTFGhost: ”Gee, I dunno, ‘I’m worried that Biden really is too old’ just seems more authentic.”
Martin
@tam1MI: I don’t know why everyone is picking on Clooney. It was Pelosi and Obama who did it. Clooney doesn’t remotely have that kind of juice.
I think people pick on Clooney because they can’t square blaming Pelosi and Obama with still liking them.
different-church-lady
@Martin:
Yeah, Haley did get a sizable percentage of the… oh, wait, that’s not what you meant?
different-church-lady
@Martin: Show me Pelosi’s and Obama’s op-ed. I’ll wait.
John S.
@Martin:
It would seem that there’s a fair number of folks who simply can’t (or won’t) admit just how vulnerable Biden was heading into the election. There’s an overwhelming amount of evidence.
The manner in which Biden was ousted was wrong and foolish. It hurt Democrats, and added drag to an already uphill Harris campaign. But I can believe these things without resorting to armchair quarterbacking.
The Audacity of Krope
@different-church-lady: Obama was silent through the whole thing. Silence is complicity.
Pelosi played coy but made clear she wanted that outcome in interviews. When you say “I’ll respect whatever decision the President makes” and are met with “The President has made his decision,” and you repeat your original statement, everyone can see what game you’re playing. See also, Elizabeth Warren.
different-church-lady
@John S.: Both of these statements are correct. And the fact that some people continue to act like they are mutually exclusive I can only attribute to pig-headedness.
different-church-lady
@The Audacity of Krope: Obama and Pelosi were trying to thread a needle. Clooney just blew a hole in the boat.
rb
@Martin:
This is right. I’m in the camp that feels 1. dumping Biden was shitty AND 2. it made us look weak AND 3. the failure of the debate to do what Biden’s team had promised it would do made his stepping down the best of bad options AND 4. Harris did better in the end than Biden would have done, which means it was the right decision even though we did not win.
That Harris ran about as competent a campaign as you could imagine and the American people sniffed and looked the other way says to me that the effort was doomed no matter what happened in July, but it could have been doomed much harder.
To the point that some some now seem to be arguing that it signals disrespect of Harris that she became the candidate by acclamation, I can only (a) ask how it would have looked if she were passed over in favor of – who, some white billionaire? and (b) observe that she could have said no.
tam1MI
It is, but it’s not an indictment of Biden, it’s an indictment of the elected Dems who didn’t step up when they had the chance and should have.
Now, I am realistic enough to know that a contested primary would have opened it’s own can of worms and that Biden probably would have won it anyway. But I believe that it was the proper way to handle elected Dems unhappiness with Biden in that whoever emerged from the process as the nominee would have been duly elected.
tam1MI
She probably would have better off in the long run if she had said no.
The Audacity of Krope
@different-church-lady: Ain’t that the truth?
Still, doesn’t justify any of their actions.
rb
@tam1MI:
I believe so.
At the same time I think we are living through something of a tectonic shift and repudiation of certain things we believe we know. One of the supposed knocks on Harris is that for ‘reasons’ – whatever they may be – she was somewhat unknown to the voters. Biden came off the bench to run against Trump – could a future Kamala Harris do something similar? And if so, could previously having very credibly interviewed for the gig be a good thing?
The future is unknown and for better or worse (probably much much worse) what we think we know is going to be revised.
different-church-lady
@The Audacity of Krope:
If you thought it was better for Biden to stay in, then yes.
But Clooney did the wrong thing no matter which way you felt about Biden.
DougL
@RaflW:
Ro Khanna is not to be trusted imho. I interacted some w/ he and his staff at an org I worked at. He is a peacock not a work horse. His ideology is an inch deep and tends to the horseshoe “Left.”
The Audacity of Krope
Again, not really the point. Respect the voters. Respect the choices the leaders voters choose make, to the point where they’re honest and legal.
Ruckus
@geg6:
Try looking at it from the current day republican viewpoint. They are far more arrogant and close minded.
We are human. Most of us. We have viewpoints that often are inexplainable. We survive today a lot easier than we did 75 yrs ago. Most of us live longer than people did then. There are just a few more of us than there was then – how did that happen…..
We can communicate far better and faster than we did then. Most of us carry a device in a pocket or purse that can communicate most anywhere in the world, 75 yrs ago a lot of people didn’t have a telephone in their home, TV was crap at best and movies were in B&W. Many people didn’t own a car. Los Angeles had electric buses with overhead wires. (BTW LA now has commuter trains with overhead wires. They work great and are quite often faster than driving)
Ruckus
@different-church-lady:
I’m only giving it 23 1/2 hrs now……. And that’s only because of being asleep.
Still it’s a sewage line so really, is that 1/2 hour going to make a difference?
Ruckus
@John S.:
Patience is my favorite virtue.
What do you do when you run out?
Because I’ve never met a human who didn’t have a limit.
Oh and congratulations but I believe that I’ve lost all my political patience, seeing as how around 1/2 of the population is willing to cheer on the other half to die. That doesn’t solve anything and likely would make things a lot worse.
Ruckus
shitforbrains has reached his brains limit. And it is only going to get worse as time goes on. IOW he’s aging out. Now he might just slow down to a mental crawl, or he might go complete dingbat. But he’s doing this rapidly and not all that well. As is typical of him. He’s 78 yrs old and not getting younger at a rapid pace. Not really understanding how this country is going to go over the next few years but I do know it won’t be up for a while.
K-Mo
@AM in NC: Great job!! Keep it up!
Subsole
@Kay:
Because the drums and vocals are absolutely fucking kickass, Kay.
I have met many folks who think Springsteen’s Born in the USA is a patriotic song.
I have met some who think The Night they Drove Old Dixie Down is a song that makes the South look good.
People don’t listen, is what I am trying to say.
Subsole
@The Audacity of Krope:
Respectfully, ‘the black lady’ is a very intelligent and accomplished woman who can damn well think strategically and was not obligated to go through with this if she thought it was a disaster in waiting.
She ran because she believed she could win. Kamala clearly shares that trait with Joe: an almost unshakeable (and, frankly, unfathomable to me) faith in the soul of this country. Or the promise of our ideals, if you prefer.
I apologize if I am misunderstanding your point. It’s just the idea that she was a passive chess piece moved about the board sits poorly with me. I think it sells her short.
K-Mo
A lot of stuff in this discussion that I disagree with:
1. We should have stuck with Biden on principle even if we knew Kamala gave us a better shot at winning.
Put me (and Nancy Smash) down for the opposite side of that. Winning was the top priority and deference to some propriety about going down with your champion was not close to being a comparable goal.
2. Kamala didn’t win so that means we would have sacrificed nothing sticking with Joe.
Disagree. Even though we lost with Kamala, she did manage to reconstitute the coalition that had frayed and reemerge a lot of enthusiasm across the country. This likely gave us Jacky Rosen, Elissa Slotkin, and Ruben Gallego, and a bunch of other key electeds. And it gave us strong message to hearken back to as we fight our coming battles.
3. We should be more like Republicans who just fight for the guy in front of them and don’t interrogate the choice.
Just no. That’s not who we are, could be, or should be.
4. We did a disservice to Kamala Harris by thrusting her into an unwinnable election.
Hard disagree. We elevated her with a preposterous amount of support and she shined. Her profile is 10 times what it was a year ago and 1000 times what it was 4 years ago. She is, or will soon be, the presumptive leader of our party and I’m looking forward to how she will wield that authority. I wouldn’t rule her out for 28.
The Audacity of Krope
You think her being our last realistic hope didn’t enter into the equation for her? I feel like duty played a role.
And one doesn’t have to be passive to be manipulated in a way beyond their control.
Subsole
@Martin:
Thank you for pointing that connection out.
Geminid
@RaflW: Ro Khanna brags about not accepting corporate donations. But a few months ago Elon Musk’s pal David Sacks hosted a fundraiser for Khanna attended by Khanna and Sacks’ wealthy friends.
How are campaign and super-PAC donations from Silicon Valley billionaires any better than ones from corporations? I think they are as bad or worse.
So Ro Khanna is a phoney. He’s a dilletante as well, as was shown by the stupid letter about Ukraine policy he and the Progressive Caucus Chairman dropped two weeks before 2022 midterms.
That letter was fraudulent. The day it dropped, multiple signees disowned it. They said they had tentatively approved a draft three months before but would never have approved the letter in in its final form, especially at the time it was published.
But Ro the Shmo was still talking up the letter on TV even after Rep. Jayapal walked it back. And it’s not hard to guess which network Khanna was speaking on either. He is Fox News’ favorite Democrat.
Gloria DryGarden
@Geminid: thanks for these updates on the Syrian doings. Sometimes it’s like a complex chess game fir me, but you make it approachable. . I have not followed it much. Your comments give me a starting place if I get the bandwidth to look up info to improve my background knowledge.
Subsole
@The Audacity of Krope:
How was she manipulated and by whom, specifically? Because I am not seeing it. Maybe I am just getting hung up on the wording, but manipulated conjures images of a scheming cabal.
Now, was she thrust into a bad situation by people who really, really fucked up? I can see that.
But I do not think she was doing this out of duty to the norms, or the party, or whatever. If duty figured into it, I imagine it was duty to America. And I do not believe she would have jeopardized this country by running unless she believed she could win. Damn all the other stuff. But then, I may be projecting my own biases onto her.
I think a lot of folks are just looking at it and saying Harris got slimed with a bad situation because the whites fucked it up again. Which, we can argue that. But if that’s the argument it needs to be stated as such.
I would say we actually came about the closest my demographic has ever come to actually having our shit together, this time. 47% white women and 39% white men isn’t enough, but it ain’t nothing.
Part of what burned my ass so bad this time is that we actually seemed to be moving the right way. Harris hit her target numbers with whites. Hispanic women showed up and showed out. But men of every stripe fell off a damn cliff.
I would throw a lot more blame at fragile masculinity, seeing as every male demographic seemed to suffer some falloff: Asian, Black, Hispanic and White.
And also, immigration/the myriad bigotries wrapped up in it.
Geminid
@Gloria DryGarden: As the youngs say, no problem!
London-based Middle East Eye has good reporting on developments in Syria.
They had a very interesting article last weekend. It reported that the rebels intended the offensive they launched that Thursday to be limited in scope. They just wanted to push the regime’s artillery out of range of Idlib city, and then prepare for the next push. But Assad’s forces ran after the first push and they’ve been running ever since.
The main rebel leader, Mohammed al-Jolani, gave an interview to CNN last night. I’ve seen written excerpts but I hope to find time to watch some of it. I am out of high-spedd data so it will be buffered and tedious, but I want to get a sense of the man.
The Audacity of Krope
Sounds like you get it. I fully endorse your wording.
I would simply add that I see that decision of a confluence of manipulations, primarily by the media and well-heeled donors. Manipulation of public opinion, mainly, but all this was a response to that.
Exactly. And you say that sense of duty requires she feel like she could win, true. Once the deed was done, I’m of the mind she was the only one who even had a chance.
Kim Walker
I think that the same playbook was used for this election and the 2016 election. Cambridge Analytica (or whoever they might be now) used micro targeted social media to depress Democratic and non-moronic independent voters from voting. MSM nonsense stories about Joe and his (oldness, tiredness, speech) in 2024 where the Hilary and her – you name it (email, advisors, etc). Meme chose.
WaterGirl
@Omnes Omnibus:
I agree with every word.
My point is that talking about what we should have done in July and continuing to spend energy repeatedly saying the same things over and over for months is not moving ahead with the lessons learned. It’s finger-pointing and blaming when we we would be better served thinking about how to move forward.