JFC how broken does your brain need to be to say shit like this on the “liberal” TV network:
After convincing President Biden to pardon his son Hunter, South Carolina Rep. Jim Clyburn is now calling for clemency for Donald Trump. “If we keep digging at things in the past, I’m not too sure the country will not lose its way,” Clyburn tells MSNBC’s Jonathan Capehart.
Clyburn is one of Biden’s most trusted advisors in Congress. I sure as hell hope Biden isn’t listening to him on this one.
I couldn’t find much Democratic pushback to what Trump said on MTP yesterday, by the way. I guess the leadership of the Democratic Party in DC (until recently, Clyburn was Assistant Democratic Leader in the House) is too busy trotting out nonsense like this.
hrprogressive
For all the commentators who get mad at me for “blaming Democrats”
How the fuck do you explain this shit away?
Yes, I, we, everyone not part of the Fascist Continuum, should absolutely “Blame Democrats” when they do or say dumb shit like this.
Biden’s DOJ Failure was allowing Jan 6th to go largely unpunished. No, a bunch of low-level nobodies getting token jail time does not count.
Clyburn claiming that the country will “lose its way” if we don’t let the past stay past????
Sir, this country lost it’s way a long, long, long, long ass time ago.
And for all the positives your legacy will have in it, it is thinking and acting like this that helped get us to this point.
Rebuild. The. Entire. Party.
Full stop.
twbrandt
I had a lot of respect for Clyburn – the hell happened?
Elizabelle
For fuck’s sake. What is up with Clyburn?
Do they go on these political shows and lose their minds?
And stop dumping on Democrats, mistermix. Enough. It’s not all Democrats, but you go right ahead and kick them and display for others how weak and stupid they are.
That has got to help.
twbrandt
@hrprogressive: I’m increasingly agreeing with your position.
hrprogressive
@twbrandt:
I appreciate that, thanks.
WereBear
The parties are splitting in half?
Just like in the last Civil War?
Obviously there’s ferocious differences of opinion each from different kinds of knowledge of the situation. But I can’t see anyone trusting Trump that isn’t a brainwashed MAGA.
His own handlers can’t trust him. He’s a loose nuclear device.
matt
They lost narrowly and now the media won’t take their calls except to talk about the Hunter Biden pardon.
TBone
It appears to me that, for reasons unknown to me, way too many people are scared shitless to stand up and oppose the incoming admin. The reasons they might be terrified are numerous. But after all the promises to fight, to now roll over and show your belly in submission will only encourage the disembowelment that’s coming regardless.
prostratedragon
New occasions teach new duties. One can respond to this — rather strange — development without updating every one of one’s former positions.
Baud
I agree that I hope Biden doesn’t take this advice.
E.
He thinks if we are real nice to them they won’t kill us.
Alce_e _ ardillo
Can anyone say ” Stockholm Syndrome”?
Searcher
@twbrandt: He is 84 years old.
I know I still get huffy about the “Biden is senile” show from this summer, but, well, a lot of these pols we all respect who have been saying crazy things lately are also pretty damn old.
zhena gogolia
I don’t know, in hindsight I think we should have just left him alone to golf at Mar-a-Lago. The time to stop him would have been the second impeachment, and it didn’t happen. All the prosecutions just increased his evil charisma. So I can see an argument for this. If he isn’t afraid of going to jail, he just might go away after 4 years.
WereBear
What recent events has clarified for me is how we should talk to MAGA. I find them criminally minded, in the main, always on the hunt for a way to put on over or get something with tricks. They think in currency.
I think if we frame everything we say to them in such blood simple terms we goad the largest organ in their body, which dictates a lot of their behavior, it might not matter that we can’t convince them.
But maybe we can scare them, and they need it.
Elizabelle
If anyone sees a transcript of the Clyburn segment, I’d be interested. Not about to invest 8 minutes watching it right now. Or ever.
@mistermix.bsky.social
@Elizabelle:
I’ll outsource my reply to Will Bunch of the Philly Inquirer, noted Republican:
Elizabelle
@@mistermix.bsky.social: Leadership including Biden and Harris? Yeah. Let’s dump those fuckers.
OK. Out of here. Rage farm all you want. Taking O Felix Culpa’s advice. I don’t need to jump like a monkey for every outrage put out there. Have fun!
Suzanne
Clyburn has pissed me off for a while. Time to retire.
Baud
@Elizabelle:
Remember when BJ committed to naming names instead of bunches everyone into groups. Good times.
E.
These people have been saying for months that we have to work like hell or Trump is going to destroy our democracy, and I believed them. Now they’re hanging out with Tim Burchett and talking about pardoning Trump. This shit stinks.
Daoud bin Daoud
Wouldn’t pardoning Trump be a little like pardoning Hitler? (I know Trump doesn’t have the same body count – yet!) Nazis ought to be hung from lampposts, not pardoned.
WereBear
Also, many many people of all kinds are mad at “the news.” Keep those corporate numbers low.
If Fox has MAGA, the poorly informed are leaving the news pipeline, and below a certain age, they rely on their stream and their friends.
Starving out the Vichy Media is something we can do.
Elizabelle
@TBone: That’s what I think.
Jackie
@twbrandt:
My question as well. My heart stopped momentarily when I read that yesterday. How in the hell is pardoning TCFG going to reunite the country??? Pardoning him would give him carte blanche to do whatever the hell he wants to America and Americans with impunity.
What is Clyburn’s motive and justification for backstabbing Biden?
JPL
@zhena gogolia: trump’s ego must be fed, just like Audrey in Little Shop of Horrors. . Even after his death, his family will honor him like a saint.
IMO
TBone
Why does everything seem to go from zero to sixty in ten seconds here? We need not attend every argument we are invited to.
Lighten up, Francises.
taumaturgo
@hrprogressive:
You are regurgitating what the “hated” left has been saying for a long time and sadly falling on deaf ears. Please proceed.
Quinerly
I was wondering if this had been posted and discussed. I just dropped it on the dying morning thread.
The segment from Capehart’s show greeted me last night when I got back to my rental from a day of hiking and AZ wine country.
Blindsided me.
Geminid
Rep. Clyburn is one member of Democratic House leadership, and of lower rank than Hakeem Jeffries, Katherine Clark and Pete Aguilar. Attributing his remarks to “the DC leadership of the Democratic Party” is nothing but a cheap rhetorical trick; a shameless smear job.
zhena gogolia
@JPL: His ego can be fed at Mar-a-Lago.
TBone
@Elizabelle: there are prolly numerous reasons for the terror, about which we may only know the tip of the iceberg. It seems to me that is harbinger of sorts. They are playing gray rock to the nth degree as well as obeying in advance, but to what purpose. I hope there is a method in this madness, optimist that I am. Like temting a rapist to get what he wants from your mouth instead, and then you take his balls off with your teeth.
Quinerly
@zhena gogolia:
I have been coming around to this position as you have stated it here. It really upsets me to say it. Very hard for me to face it.
WereBear
@Searcher: It’s not their age so much as when they stopped learning new things.
Those will standing to speak to Clyburn and express their thoughts, like his constituents, are going to be what guides him.
As for Trump, he’s not that visible. He might already be at the “honking random women’s boobs” stage of old white man dementia. Perhaps they have run out of volunteer Republican women he can run through so he appears in public with a smile on his face.
zhena gogolia
@Quinerly: Me too.
E.
@Quinerly: We had to either really prosecute the lot of them or let it all go. It’s the half-measures that got us. I was a Garland loyalist to the end but no longer. We messed that up and the country and world will pay for it.
Quinerly
@zhena gogolia:
I had my doubts going into that second impeachment. Uneasy feeling.
First time I have admitted it publicly.
Seeker
I will never vote for a Democratic candidate at the national level again. They have utterly failed and act unaware that they have utterly failed. They honestly do not care about losing elections. They will be untouched by the consequences. Any sentence they uttered about the Republic being in danger was a lie that they clearly did not believe. They are joke and deserve to be one.
WereBear
@prostratedragon: LOL. Too true.
Are we not communicating enough? I called the ones I have standing with, or sent them messages through their websites, except Stefanik.
I so wanted to fax FLEE AT ONCE ALL IS DISCOVERED but Mr WereBear had a cooler head, and prevailed.
Betty Cracker
That’s the dumbest, most out of touch thing I’ve heard any elected Dem say in the wake of the election so far. I hope Clyburn is an outlier.
Omnes Omnibus
@Seeker: Interesting. I wonder how this will help anything. Can you explain it?
Josie
@Geminid: Thanks for this.Members of leadership can disagree, just as we do here.
ETA: For the record, I strongly disagree with Clyburn. Ford’s pardon of Nixon did not clear the slate. It just started the ball rolling downhill and proved that justice is not equal for everyone.
Elizabelle
Trump is unfit for office. He was not convicted because of the rot in the GOP. Please do not bring that rot upon our country, as a whole, by saying “I guess we should just accede to Trump and what he did wasn’t that bad.”
It was that bad. Courage, jackals. Someone has to demonstrate some.
Splitting Image
@Elizabelle:
Now be fair. He’s also slagging Justin Trudeau a lot lately, so it’s not as if it is all Democrats all the time.
Elizabelle
@Omnes Omnibus: LOL.
But it’s the reaction mistermix was going for.
Quinerly
@E.:
Not here to spend hrs today on BJ arguing and deflecting insults. I am on a month long roadtrip.
But, I have to get this in….I AGREE with you on Garland. I was in his corner. But when I turned, I turned with a VEGENCE. I lay most of this at his feet. Half measures do not work with Trump and this MAGA shit.
I will not stick around this AM and give oxygen to the Garland fan club. So, if any of you want to pound your chest about how great Garland is, I WILL NOT READ IT. So pound away and waste your morning.
E, hope you have a nice day. Take care.
different-church-lady
Okay, so some Democrats are worried pardons will kill the rule of law, and others think we should just forget anyone ever did anything criminal.
Forget obeying in advance, this is just a case of brains being broken.
hrprogressive
@taumaturgo:
The “terminally online Real Leftists” are convinced if the Democratic Party were replaced by actual Communists or Real Socialists or whatever, then The Glorious People’s Revolution would arrive in America.
That is not what I am saying at all.
What I am saying is the Democratic Party has way, way, way too many persons who have been in power way too long, are too comfortable with the status quo, and either willfully or ignorantly refuse to accept that we do not live in a Jimmy Smith movie, we live in the real world and their colleagues are open Fascists who would execute them if they thought it was the right time to do so.
My suggestion is that the Party needs to be rebuilt with lots of progressive 25-to-45 year Olds like AOC, Maxwell Frost, Jasmine Crockett, etc.
People who understand what it means to not have generational wealth to fall back on, and that the GOP is not their friend and bipartisanship sucks out loud.
If what I am saying sounds too much like the keyboard warriors you mentioned above, that sounds like a Reader of My Comments problems, not a Me Problem.
I will, in fact, be proceeding.
Seeker
@Omnes Omnibus: I don’t know that it will help anything, but voting for Democrats at the national level has accomplished nothing except briefly empowering a vacuous political class that played their voters for fools. If someone rips you off, you should cease doing business with them.
Baud
@different-church-lady:
Healthy, open debate. It’s what we want, right?
Chief Oshkosh
Way long time ago, part of my job took me to Capitol Hill a few times a year. It always hit me what a weird bubble that place is — somehow vaguely disconnected from reality. The first few times, it was a little disorienting.
When I see cuckoo-for-CocoPuff statements like Clyburn’s, I’m reminded of that feeling.
hrprogressive
@Betty Cracker:
Unfortunately, if it were me and I was a betting man, my money would go on Clyburn being the Rule, not the Exception to this line of thinking.
Baud
@Seeker:
Do what you want. You have the same political rights as MAGA.
different-church-lady
@Baud: No, you’re mistaking that for ice cream.
prostratedragon
@Daoud bin Daoud: Maybe, maybe not. But it would be very much like pardoning someone who deliberately makes himself as offensive and dilatory as possible in hope that we’ll give up and let him have his way. Why I say, “Never,” unless Time intervenes.
The Audacity of Krope
@different-church-lady: You have to look at the particulars. These Democrats are demanding we adhere to the rule of law for Hunter, but not Donald.
Put more simply, Democrats demand we adhere to the terms of debate and action permitted by Republicans.
Same as it has always been.
different-church-lady
Why the fuck are we even talking about pardoning Trump when it’s obvious he’ll never again be charged with a goddamned thing?
Omnes Omnibus
@Seeker: Got it. You are taking your ball and going home. I admire your resiliency.
Quinerly
@hrprogressive:
I think this is heading in the direction of Biden actually pardoning Trump.
hrprogressive
@different-church-lady:
Because it would give Democrats a hit of that sweet, sweet, bipartisan comity and Beltway Approval they crave like a drug.
Old Man Shadow
He tried to murder Congress and his own Vice President in an insurrection. You would really fucking think that Congress people would still be outraged about that and want justice.
The Audacity of Krope
@Omnes Omnibus: “Never vote for a Democratic candidate at the national level” is certainly extreme. But “vote blue no matter who” needs to die.
hrprogressive
@Quinerly:
He’s already abdicating his role as CIC with respect to Ukraine, so yeah, pardoning Trump would actually be right in line with our fall from grace as a country.
prostratedragon
@different-church-lady: Is it possible that statute of limitations on the existing charges be paused? Then they could be resumed after 2028[sigh].
different-church-lady
We’re all Casey Stengal now.
kindness
@JPL: If Trump’s family honors him so much that they bury his dead ass next to his first wife at his NJ golf club, it’ll just mean I’ll have a harder time reaching the grave to pee on it.
hrprogressive
@The Audacity of Krope:
“Vote Blue No Matter Who” was a terrible slogan devised by do-nothing Resistance Liberals on Twitter who drifted off “stopping Trump” without actually stopping him from doing anything.
Again, when I say we need to Rebuild the Party, it means not simply voting for whichever person has a D next to their name because “the R would be worse!!!!!”
That message did not resonate with real voters and now everyone will pay some form of price for it.
brendancalling
@hrprogressive: Oliver Willis has been on a tear about this since the election.
Seeker
@Omnes Omnibus: Refusing to keep feeding money and energy to a bunch of con artists isn’t the same as quitting a game because of a loss.
And it’s certainly possible that a Democratic candidate at the local or even state level could be worth voting for.
different-church-lady
@hrprogressive: It was supposed to counter the purity ponies, but backfired.
TBone
All roads leading to Putin, as someone once said.
Division and chaos in the ranks and I can hear him chuckling softly.
zhena gogolia
@different-church-lady: Well, there’s that, of course.
Elizabelle
Wise words from O. Felix Culpa yesterday (in WG’s Outrage morning post):
Jump higher, monkeys.
hrprogressive
@brendancalling:
Been meaning to read more of his work, will have to do so. Thanks!
Baud
@different-church-lady:
You’re assuming we had a more compelling message that would have been more successful.
Political parties lose elections. There’s no way around it.
Omnes Omnibus
@Seeker: Bored now.
Jackie
@Betty Cracker:
Wasn’t Clyburn one of the first to openly “suggest” Biden to step down from running for re-election? I remember saying Et tu Brutus? at the time.
hrprogressive
@different-church-lady:
Yeah. It really did.
John S.
@Baud:
Healthy debate would be most welcome.
I don’t understand why it’s not ok to EVER criticize Democrats — especially when they say or do stupid things. Mindlessly cheerleading for your team is a feature of the other side.
Conversely, endlessly griping about amorphous “Democrats” is not productive. But in this instance, names were named — Jim Clyburn. I think we can all agree that what he said was epically stupid and misguided.
Now whether his sentiments extend to the rest of the leadership, we just don’t know because they aren’t saying anything one way or another. The only things we keep hearing are from the Democrats who want to capitulate. I’m pretty sure that’s by MSM design.
Old Man Shadow
Part of the frustration at Democratic leadership in general is the lack of a national level leader who could rally Democrats in opposition. Most of the public messages have been conciliatory and cooperative instead of defiant and angry.
We need a general right now, not a diplomat. And we’re not seeing one.
trollhattan
The more I read it the more I think there’s an accidental double negative in there.
“Let’s not worry about who killed who, this is supposed to be a happy occasion.”
South Carolina not sending their best. Wait, what if they are?
Baud
@John S.:
The OP named names. The blue sky post copied in the comments did not.
tam1MI
Same here.
The Audacity of Krope
@different-church-lady: It just attracted a different, worse breed of purity pony. One with no actual values, just tribal markers.
Maybe the real problem is Democrats shouldn’t be complicit with Republicans in shutting the left out of political conversations by sidelining sensible voices and elevating the craziest people they can find as wrestling heels.
Too many prominent Democrats are Bill Maher.
AWOL
@hrprogressive: I left. Came back in 2004 and voted D down the line in every election since then when I saw “progressives” were doing zilch except grifting pathetically small amounts of dollars and really working against Democrats, and hence via that working against what little support there was for women, Blacks, gay people, and the remnants of the New Deal. But after seeing these fuckbuckets obey in advance, I’m losing any sense I should vote for them, contribute to them, or advocate for them.
They should be shat upon.
@mistermix.bsky.social
@hrprogressive: I second the Oliver Willis recommendation.
Also agree with your point that the leadership needs to be replaced by the next group of younger Democrats.
Omnes Omnibus
@TBone: In the wake of a loss, it is worth having conversations about why it happened. In a group as diverse as the Democratic coalition, those conversations will be wide ranging and often contentious.
Shakti
Of course Clyburn is going to say things like this.
There’s a reason nobody seems to know all about Biden’s accomplishments and you can’t just lay it all at the feet of the *media.
The party power structure commits itself to being ineffectual.
Bupalos
I agree this is fairly stupid, BUT, the chance that Trump ever faces his federal charges in any meaningful way is already functionally zero. So as a means of preserving the idea that there are rules, maybe it makes some kind of sense to pretend like the reason Trump doesn’t have to face the law is that he got a pardon? Dunno.
In general though Clyburn has a deeper point that we really can’t win as long as the subject and object of politics is Trump. So if it were possible in a political sense to simply bury the entire history of how we got here and just talk about what we want government to do, that would be a good thing and the most effective means of reducing Trump’s power. Doesn’t seem remotely possible though. Any attempt to reduce Trump as the subject of politics will cause him to lash out and recover that position. And folks just can’t resist the bait. It’s both how he holds power and how he feeds his narcissism.
The Audacity of Krope
This comes back to us being a fractious coalition. I’m not defiant and angry, not toward the Republicans, I’m at “Popcorn, please.”
tam1MI
And it is something we should do.
Quinerly
@Chief Oshkosh:
I was a paid intern on Capitol Hill for 6 months between college and starting law school. The Fabulous Mid ’80’s. Full on Reagan years. I have mentioned this here before…my parents were sold, hardcore, Liberal Humphrey/McGovern type Dems in NC, yet I had the opportunity to work for a Republican senator from NC who was not Jesse Helms. Sen John P East had been one of my college professors and then was elected to the Senate. We agreed on nothing but for some crazy reason he wanted me to intern for him. A different era for sure. He said he liked arguing with me in his political science classes. I wanted the experience. I went. I am very glad I did it. Saw and learned a lot. I was from rural, Eastern NC….a town with one caution light. No full on stop lights. I’ve come a long way from the tobacco belt of rual NC.
Even my limited experience there and living in Georgetown, I realized how insular it all was. Hard to explain. I have to think no matter how much they all go back to their districts, they truly are in a bubble of their own makings.
Omnes Omnibus
@Old Man Shadow: Biden is leaving. Harris lost. Right now, there is no one else in a place to take on that job as of right. It’s only been a month. Leaders will begin to emerge organically. Maybe Crockett and AOC are already doing so.
SFAW
@Seeker:
And Gore and Bush are/were the same, no doubt.
Bupalos
@AWOL: How about instead of moralizing all this or deciding who we do and don’t want to identify with and to what extent, we treat politics as a space where we try to achieve policy outcomes.
Quinerly
@Jackie:
No. You are wrong.
hrprogressive
@AWOL:
My first vote cast was in 2004. I’ve been voting for D’s in General Elections for 20 years this year.
When there have been primaries, I educate myself and vote according to those as closely aligned with my values.
When there aren’t, I vote for the D because I don’t want the GOP to have any power, at all, ever again. Full stop.
But I have watched the Democratic Party writ large shit on their supposed ardent voter base, and now it has come home to roost.
I have been there for conversations about how the GOP was going to die an electoral death because the country’s demographics were going to “permanently” continue to get “younger, less white, and more liberal”.
Guess what?
Those demographics felt the Democratic Party wasn’t offering them anything other than Not Being Republicans. And they stayed home.
And now we have to try and survive a Second Trump Admin.
The Democratic Party seems uninterested and unwilling to learn the right lessons from the last 25 years, and it’s in no small part due to people like Clyburn, Pelosi, Schumer, Durbin, et. al., holding power for way, way, way too fucking long.
The Audacity of Krope
@Bupalos: If policy outcomes are hamstrung by our own purported leaders not being able to make a decision that doesn’t have firm backing in a poll somewhere, we can’t have a politics based on policy outcomes. Because you can’t realistically push for your preferred outcome if all we’re going to do is what a NYT poll said readers of the NYT wanted and we can’t take risky gambles on trans folk / immigrants / trust busting / Biden….
TBone
@Omnes Omnibus: of course. At the same time, we have bigger fish to fry at the moment.
I’m not looking over my shoulder right now, in an effort to prevent stumbling forward. I’m not navel gazing until at least six months have passed (as I said on Nov. 6) and that’s my prerogative. This is a comment section and that’s my comment.
tam1MI
I don’t think there is anyone left in the Garland fan club to give oxygen to. I’m to the point where I am thinking it was a blessing in disguise he didn’t make it to the Supreme Court.
SFAW
@tam1MI:
New here, are you?
[Yes, I know you’ve been here for years.]
Baud
@TBone:
Good approach.
hrprogressive
@The Audacity of Krope:
The only “policy outcomes” senior democratic leaders want are to make nice with Republicans, everyone sings kumbaya, their portfolios grow forever, and their power and positions are left unchallenged with safe seats.
Oh, and maybe, please be nice to people, because that’s a swell idea.
Kay
@Omnes Omnibus:
We’ll see OO but Democrats came out swinging when Bush was r elected in ’04. By the State of the Union they had driven down his Social Security privatization plan from 50% disapproval to 65%.
I watched Jeffries respond to a question on Trump’s Social Security privatization and he said he doesn’t know why Republicans are bringing it up because they don’t have a large enough majority to pass it. I give up. I guess we’re going to secretly rescue Social Security and make sure Republicans don’t get blamed.
Old Man Shadow
Then those demographics were stupid or willfully obtuse. Joe Biden pushed the most pro-climate, pro-union, pro-worker policies in my fifty years of existence.
Now most of that is going away because he lost anyway. So I’m not particularly inclined to think those people care about any of the gains that were made and am honestly thinking they want things to be worse so they can be justified in their cynical apathy.
TBone
@Omnes Omnibus: I like your optimism in this regard.
Kay
They dont to even have to create anything. Just follow the plan they used after GWB was reelected.
TBone
@Baud: thank you, it helps me to remain alert. Preventing outrage fatigue which can lead to giving up.
Baud
@Old Man Shadow:
There’s a cohort of progressives who seem to want to put responsibility for the loss on progressive voters. I don’t get it. I don’t think it’s accurate, but I guess we’ll see what the data says.
UncleEbeneezer
@hrprogressive: He hates Dems more than Republicans. And blames everything on Dems. I’m sure you’ll love him…
AWOL
@hrprogressive: All I know is that the far left in the US sucks dog’s ass, the GOP is a neo-nazi party and has been for years, and the party I’ve been voting for and contributing to consistently for two decades just doesn’t get it, save for a few souls like Cortez in NY.
Like the absurd word “Latinx,” they just don’t get it, they just assume everyone is as esoteric as they are, nor do they understand human nature and how to be an actual opposition party.
If there are future elections, I’ll still vote for them, but I expect nothing. Rolling over when Ginsberg died that has led to a 3-6 SC debacle with a neo-nazi being given his power back on 1/21/25 to make it 1-8 during his term just cements that.
Like the Football Giants, they have to rebuild from the Top Down.
The Audacity of Krope
I recognize these things and supported Biden for them. Even though I voted for him in 2020, I didn’t fully support Biden until I saw how he performed as President.
I saw plenty of recognition on this from left social media influencers (maybe some of y’all just need to curate better).
The issue, this time, were moderates playing the media game. Your Adam Schiffs of the world validating dumb media narratives because it’s too risky to push back. This isn’t the Obama era anymore.
Old Man Shadow
@Baud: I was just going off of his assertion that they stayed home because “purity pony”.
And if that is the actual case, than those people who did that are idiots.
Omnes Omnibus
It’s December.
Baud
@AWOL:
Was there an epidemic of Democratic officials using LatinX? I rarely witnessed it, if at all, among political leaders. I mostly saw it in email newsletters from progressive groups.
Baud
@Old Man Shadow:
One meme on Blue sky is that progressives stayed home because they didn’t like Harris doing pro-democracy events with Cheney. I don’t believe that’s true either, because it makes progressives look really bad, but some people want to push the idea.
The Audacity of Krope
More harm has come to our coalition from people complaining about this than people using it.
How many times have I heard this discussed in the media? Hundreds. Always to disparage “the Left,” even from Democrats.
How many times have I encountered Latinx in my real life; conversations, documents, encounters with enthusiastic activists on the street? None.
No one uses or says Latinx. It is only maintained as a cudgel against “wokeness” and too many of us are playing that game without realizing it.
hrprogressive
@Old Man Shadow:
While I will concede that the legacy, corprofascist media, did a great job making sure the accomplishments of the Biden Admin were drowned out by the chorus of “Gee, isn’t he a tad bit old for this job? Some Say he is”
The Democratic Party by and large did, and does, a piss poor job of blowing their own horn when they do things for their constituents.
This is not a new problem, at all.
Soprano2
@Quinerly: Boy I hope you’re wrong about that. What kind of credibility will Democrats have if Biden pardons the person they’ve been telling everyone is a threat to democracy? It’s insane!! Nixon’s pardon was wrong, too, it didn’t help us get past it. What would have helped us get past Nixon was a trial where he was treated like every other criminal.
hrprogressive
@AWOL:
There *is no* “Far Left” in the US.
The basement-dwellers who pay for Twitter and do Putin’s work for him don’t count, nor do the keyboard warriors on whatever Subreddit is promoting Marxism or Leninism or whatever.
It is repeatedly noted that most of the Democratic Party Positions would place them in the center-right if compared to their European counterparts.
Save a few people here and there, there just is not anything passing for a “Left” in this country.
This is a big, big, part of the problem
hrprogressive
@Soprano2:
It’s A Big Club
And we ain’t in it.
tam1MI
Gotta agree with you here. It wasn’t the left of the party that abandoned Biden and Harris this time around.
trollhattan
“Wow, Trump really is rich.”
“How rich is he?”
“So rich he brought in real German Nazis for election night, not settling for the usual fake American Nazis.”
This is all perfectly fine.
AWOL
@Baud: I used it as a metaphor that assumed a certain voting demographic was in the bag and shared progressive values and insight that would of course, naturally lead them to vote for the Democratic Party.
I could have easily substituted “the ‘youth will come through for us’ “nonsense, when I witness in-person at large group events (think sporting events) how nationalistic, jingoistic, and war-worshipping US youth is in 2024.
Omnes Omnibus
Repeatedly noting something doesn’t make it true.
narya
@Omnes Omnibus: and Maxwell Frost, I think, too. I’m looking forward to seeing who emerges, tbh. I realize this is going to sound very pollyanna-like, but I still believe in the principles that (many in) the Democratic Party hold(s) to, and those folks you mentioned do, too!
davek319
@hrprogressive: Note to these old fuckin Neville Chamberlain mini-mes like Clyburn: You are the only ones who will either remember or give a fuck when your shining “legacy” gets flushed away two weeks into February ’25, and all your lifelong embrace of Zucht und Ordnung as long as you were in the club doing the Zuchting bears an enormous portion of the blame for how we got here. Fuck you old guys and your death grip on the Democratic Party
It’s a goddam shame, is what it is, that this gerontocracy expends far more energy fighting off its own progressive wing, who could grow the party and give it heart and muscle, than it ever does opposing the fash. Why, one could be forgiven for thinking they really don’t mind the fash all that much as long as they get to be the toothless Opposition party again and forevermore… Quelle surprise, I know, huh?
Gregory
Clyburn’s comment was not well thought out or helpful. It validates Trump’s lies that the prosecutions for his criminal acts are merely political. Pardoning Nixon was a mistake but at least it was done for favor/partisanship reasons. Pardoning Trump despite his obvious guilt would be a tenfold error.
Kay
@hrprogressive:
Bernie Sanders hasn’t helped. “Elon Musk is right”. The Left side of the Party is just as bad as the Right side on wanting to win the argument rather than win the war.
There’s not going to be any Sanders/ Musk deal on Pentagon cuts balanced with safety net cuts. Why is he even talking? Bernie Sanders can’t manage to say ” this is an unelected, foreign billionaire coming for your national assets and you should be outraged”
TBone
@hrprogressive: ever seen the naked capitalism website? Plenty of crappy American “far leftists” there
The Audacity of Krope
@Omnes Omnibus: Well, it depends. Are you looking at economics or are you looking at social progress? Also, too, are you looking at 20 years ago or today, because Europe sure looks to be backsliding.
hrprogressive
@Omnes Omnibus:
Most European Countries have some form of functional left of center party.
We have Republican-Lite.
How is it “untrue”?
Baud
@Kay:
Even if there were, how is that different than the sequester and Simpson Bowles commission that progressives skewered Obama over?
The Audacity of Krope
And not enough power between them to turn on a light bulb.
Another Scott
Haven’t watched the video. I did read this (from December 4):
That first “if” seems to be doing a lot of heavy lifting. And he’s right about the SCOTUS effectively giving DJT immunity for federal crimes.
Dunno if he’s elaborated and extended his remarks since then.
I’ll sit out the circular firing squad this time, thanks.
FWIW.
Best wishes,
Scott.
TBone
@trollhattan: when they tell you who they are (remember the Nazi symbols on the Donold merch sites from his first admin.), always believe them the first time.
Kay
@Soprano2:
No one should ever believe them again if the pardon Trump. It will destroy them.I don’t know – they want to commit suicide maybe something new rises from the ashes. There’s just no fight in these people. Jeffries sounds like a hostage.
Baud
@Another Scott:
Never mind. I misread.
zhena gogolia
I detect a lot of glee in this thread in being able to verbally abuse a distinguished Black legislator.
hrprogressive
@Kay:
I wholeheartedly agree Bernie shouldn’t have said that. He was incorrect to do so.
However, there absolutely appears to be a Bernie Derangement Syndrome where people (not you, specifically) just reject anything he says out of hand, because Something Something Bernie Bros.
Bernie’s positions inspire a lot of people.
I wish we could accurately capture and channel that into electing more people who think things like Medicare for All, for example, are good places to start.
TBone
@The Audacity of Krope: ha! Praise Jeebus!
Omnes Omnibus
@The Audacity of Krope:
Exactly. You also have to look at where we are starting. The ACA is pretty conservative by Euro standards. But it wasn’t proposed as the be all end all of healthcare reform, but rather as a first step.
Old Man Shadow
@hrprogressive: Yes, Democrats do need to be better about shameless self-promotion, but that point is different from what you asserted earlier.
Regardless, I think Democrats were perfectly clear about what they were offering and I think (perhaps, surprisingly) Republicans were quite honest too about their agenda. Neither party was hiding things under a rock.
A majority of voters were either okay with the GOP agenda, wanted it, or were somehow convinced the leopards really wouldn’t eat their faces.
And now, we don’t need a fucking conciliator. We need a fighter and a bit of an asshole who can rally people. Appeals to our better angels are going to be the death of us.
hrprogressive
@TBone:
Have not, no desire to.
The Audacity of Krope
@Kay: Hey, but at least doddering old Biden won’t be the one trying to navigate our last 50 years of Israel policy into some humane space anymore. Trump got this, right?
UncleEbeneezer
The Jack Podcast did a very good but sad episode last week about the dismissals and the extremely low likelihood that Trump will ever go to trial. It would take an incredibly unlikely string of events to all go the right way. Even if Trump leaves office and could have the charges resurrected the the question of the statute of limitations would need to be ruled upon by SCOTUS. Then the question of “official acts” would need to be ruled upon by judge Chutkan, appealed and then ruled on by Supreme Court. Then there are about five other steps, each of which would have the same complicated path with the Supreme Court always having the ability to simply dismiss the case outright or spend a year waiting to take up the case. And this isn’t just because Trump got reelected. The same damn forever-delay labyrinth with SCOTUS having the ultimate say and ability to delay, delay, delay was always the route that any attempt to prosecute Trump would face. The hope of holding Trump accountable for his crimes was lost when he got his cronies onto the Supreme Court. Anyone who thinks Garland appointing a Special Counsel the day he was sworn in would’ve somehow magically gotten around this harsh reality is wrong. The Supreme Court is Lucy with the football. And not only could they always yank the football away at the last second, they could also ensure that Charlie Brown never even got a chance to kick it (as they did). Monday morning quarterback fantasy scenarios of the AG replacing Christopher Wray, appointing a SC lightning-fast etc. are just that…fantasies. Even if Kamala had won, it would have been pretty unlikely that Trump would’ve ever faced accountability, sadly.
prostratedragon
Tilda Swinton interview with nyt. She talks among other things about what art can do for us. (Direct link to nytimes)
zhena gogolia
@Old Man Shadow: I’m afraid that when a Democrat comes across as “a bit of an asshole” it doesn’t end well in the public square.
TBone
I can hardly believe that Senator Bernie Sanders has been mentioned, but Senator John Fetterman has not. He’s been attention whoring lately too. Much to my chagrin.
Omnes Omnibus
@hrprogressive: Again, you are simply asserting that as if it is self-evident.
The Audacity of Krope
@TBone: Just saying, maybe the left wouldn’t be so cantankerous if their own supposed allies weren’t trying to shut them out of polite society.
Chief Oshkosh
@Quinerly:
Yep, you captured it.
I wonder if it’s less of an issue for Republicans in that the Democrats (elected officials and staffers) seemed to be very much into the concept of good governance and constituent services – basically a bunch of really engaged, hard-working poli-sci majors. Every Republican I had to work with, or just met in passing, was either a full-on, bug-eyed religious zealot or a frat boy/sorority girl type who just did not give a shit and didn’t care who knew it.
Thus, the Democrats really are in a bubble, but arguably for some good reasons. The Republicans are just not affected by it because everywhere they go, they’re just there for the beer or Jesus.
Baud
@TBone:
I haven’t heard his name come up.
Baud
@The Audacity of Krope:
I have no idea what’s you’re referring to.
hrprogressive
@Omnes Omnibus:
👍
John S.
@Gregory:
I just read the transcript, and Clyburn said something even more stupid:
Any elected Democrat should know better than to agree with Joe Fucking Manchin, who isn’t even a Democrat.
The Audacity of Krope
@Baud: Fuck Fetterman too. He was fully on the bandwagon with villainizing, and thus endangering, our University students this year.
hrprogressive
@TBone:
Fetterman has gone from Internet Darling to Shit List, real quick.
Not a fan of what he’s been saying either.
Baud
@John S.:
What’s the topic?
hrprogressive
@Chief Oshkosh:
The GOP goes to DC for their own power and profit/prophet, and the Dems go to DC to prove that if they can get the byzantine bureaucracy juuuuuuuust right, all will be well with the world.
The Audacity of Krope
@Baud: I’m referring to the way Leftists are excluded from mainstream outlets aside from the cherry picked freak shows they put on, then too much of the party which is too much like Bill Maher tut-tuts the extremeness of it all.
Democrats, for years, have been participating in the rhetorical game where generous constituent services are viewed to be equally extreme as mass deportation, perhaps more so. “The Left” is a phantom too many are fighting while the real fascists run rampant.
John S.
@zhena gogolia:
I don’t know what you’re detecting. My own personal feeling, and it would seem that of many others, is more of shock and sadness that someone so respected would say something so stupid.
You think John Lewis would be calling for Trump to be pardoned?
John S.
@Baud:
Uh, the same topic as this thread. Trump getting pardoned.
Apologies if that wasn’t clear from the abbreviated quote.
Soprano2
@Kay: Oh man, I agree that’s a terrible response. Terrible. Surely they haven’t been sold on the idea that this election means TCFG has some kind of big mandate? They should act like it was a 50-50 election, because it was, and oppose oppose oppose. SS privatization is extremely unpopular, it’s not hard to be against that!!
The Audacity of Krope
@John S.: I’m not necessarily bothered by Clyburn on this, in particular. My dumb comments from politicians since the election award goes to Suozzi, for his swipe at trans people.
What really worries me about this is knowing how close Clyburn and Biden are, he’s likely signaling a future Biden act.
I’m increasingly understanding the outlook of people who run out and start burning shit when they’re mad.
Baud
@The Audacity of Krope:
I don’t watch those shows, so I haven’t witnessed any of that.
As a general matter, people get to disagree, especially in an ideologically diverse party.
Baud
@John S.:
Thanks.
BellyCat
Exact phrase I was thinking as well.
A couple weeks ago the Pod Save America guys interviewed Harris’ election team. It’s worth a listen. Essentially, they tried to pull off something in a few months that usually takes a few years. The fact that they came as close as they did is pretty miraculous. Kamala did very well where they were able to focus. They just weren’t able to focus everywhere.
White males are obviously a problem that is well known. But, the big and growing problems:
1. Latinos.
2. Black men.
Lots more there and lack of democratic pacs that work in coordination (which was done by the Republican pace) was cited. Legal or not.
My core belief is that until Citizens United goes away, we are in for a real rocky ride. The money people will do whatever it takes for as long as it takes to hold onto their money
hrprogressive
@zhena gogolia:
@John S.:
Speaking only for myself, I am aghast that someone as respected as Clyburn could say something so bereft of logic and reason.
I’ve cited a lot of other white Democrats who I think have been a huge problem, so, it is absolutely not about Clyburn being Black.
Jasmine Crockett is a Black woman who seems to get it. I wish more legislators would follow her lead, instead, for example.
West of the Rockies
@Seeker:
You’re not a serious person.
The Audacity of Krope
@Baud: I agree that people get to disagree. And a good deal of people here are of the ideological cohort trying to sideline the left.
So I’d like to keep talking about how that’s bad
TBone
@The Audacity of Krope: I am a Bernie “Bro” who voted for Hillary – I most closely identify as a democratic socialist.
Baud
@The Audacity of Krope:
Using words like sideline is unhelpful because it’s vague. I’ll sideline anyone of any ideology that abandons the coalition. But some people feel sidelined when faced with opposing views. No one is going to silence themselves for others.
Jackie
@Soprano2:
Absolutely right! And we’re paying for that now – with A LOT of support from TCFG’s Supremes.
TBone
@hrprogressive: my fervent hope also.
pajaro
@Another Scott:
Yes, thank you for posting what he actually said, rather than what was breathlessly reported and assumed both here and at LGM. There’s a difference between saying he is advocating a pardon and saying that he would support Biden’s decision, given the impossibility of actually prosecuting Trump.
However, it’s still a bad idea to pardon Trump. As long as Biden believes, as I think he does, that the convictions and punishments for the members of the Jan. 6 mob were appropriate, he should not pardon the man whose words incited the mob.
Baud
@pajaro:
It’s not what he said in the latest interview. It’s from before. Confused me too.
zhena gogolia
@John S.: Very respectful:
TBone
@Omnes Omnibus: didn’t it originate in RMoney’s Massachusetts? I think I read that origin story…
ETA
https://www.factcheck.org/2011/03/romneycare-facts-and-falsehoods/
cmorenc
The two relatively sideshow prosecutions, especially Alvin Bragg in state court in NY, actually wound up being counterproductive distractions to the two that really counted: the Jan 6 insurrection in DC and classified docs in Fla. Yes, Bragg had a legit criminal case, but the timing of finally getting around to pursuing Trump seemed to much of the public as ovedelayed partisan retribution rather than delayed but finally obtained justice. And Fanni Willis frankly made an enormous unforced error tangling personal and professional life up in such an important case, allowing Trump allies to throw up huge squid-clouds of distraction.
We got a truly catastropic bad break by the classified docs case being randomly assigned to MAGA hack Aileen Cannon – even with the SCOTUS 6 deliberately foot-dragging and throwing sand in the gears of the Jan 6 prosecution, Trump was dead in the water on the classified docs case, because of his deliberate retention and concealment of classified docs AFTER he was out of office and no longer President. But why Garland piddled around long enough with Jan 6 before getting a special counsel appointed is what gave SCOTUS the opportunity to delay any possibility of a pre-election trial.
The Audacity of Krope
@TBone: I’ll admit to not spending any time on the naked capitalism site. And I agree that impotent rage is not useful.
However, I can at least understand raging impotently when your only plausible vehicle for positive social change is a group of people that goes out of its way so often to say “we don’t like you or value your ideas.”
sab
@West of the Rockies: Agreed. When Republicans lose they dig in and carry on. When White Democrats lose we rant curl up in fetal position and cry. Maybe we need to dig in and persevere.
OT Clyburn lives inSouth Carolina which is a very weird place politically. I hope to God we never have to learn lessons from him in the rest of the country. Nothing against him, everything against his immediate political environment. And I am speaking from ruby red Ohio.
Omnes Omnibus
@The Audacity of Krope: The problem, for me at least, is not the policy positions of the left of the party. I tend to support them. it is the tactical choices that they make and the public relations damage done by those choices. OTOH, the left of the party largely stuck by Biden which I of course thought was the correct choice while the centrists did not.* In conclusion, the Democratic Party is a land of contrasts.
*I am not trying to relitigate July. I was merely making a factual observation.
Soprano2
@zhena gogolia: I’m not gleeful at all, I’m horrified that any Democrat would suggest that this is a good idea. It would completely validate all of TCFG’s complaining about how the prosecutions were just political after all. I would criticize any Democrat for this regardless of who they are, it’s just a wrong, wrong, wrong idea. How can we tell voters TCFG is a mortal threat to democracy during the campaign and then turn around and suggest pardoning him???????? No one will ever think Democrats really believe what they’re saying again if that happens. You don’t pardon a true threat to democracy.
sab
@pajaro: When we are finally, years from now, in a position to try Trump let his lawyers present evidence that he is incompetent from dementia. I do think that will happen and be true. I don’t want to duck it via a pardon.
Another Scott
@sab: +1
Looking back at what he said about DJT in 2021, the headlines indicate he was all over the place about impeaching him. I’m sure it’s because there were nuances to his comments that the headlines didn’t capture (no time now to read all his comments back then, myself).
Eyes on the prizes.
Best wishes,
Scott.
The Audacity of Krope
@Baud: I’m talking about the people with power actually making these decisions. I’m not fussed about people disagreeing on the internet. It’s a big problem, though, that there is no media space for representatives from worker cooperatives, non-crazy Socialist professors, or even that comparatively well-spoken schmuck at the diner who isn’t MAGA and thinks land ownership is a fucked up practice.
Baud
@The Audacity of Krope:
I don’t see any sidelining by people in power. Unless sidelining = disagreeing.
Baud
The Audacity of Krope
And this is why I keep stressing that the actual left doesn’t have any true media presence. Those tactical choices are carefully chosen for demonstration by our media to prompt just this reaction. Sensible choices by the left don’t make good click bait.
It’s like the sanewashing they do for Trump, but the opposite.
UncleEbeneezer
@pajaro: OMG. The fact that places like BJ and LGM are so eager to take a dumb quote, out of context, from one Dem, from awhile ago and use it to spread Anti-Dem hysteria is such a perfect window into where we are at right now and how we got here. Putin must get so many evil giggles from toying with us. Just dip a little Dem-bashing bait in the water and people rush to it like a school of piranhas.
cmorenc
@sab: Clyburn lives in the one SC congressional district a black democrat can win, because blacks are 49% of the population of the district, whites only 41%. Across the rest of the state, those relative percentages are reversed – overall in SC, 63% white, 26% black.
Ruckus
@Jackie:
What is Clyburn’s motive and justification for backstabbing Biden?
There is more than one possibility.
First, moving on. It’s still a country, Joe Biden is retiring, shitforbrains will be president. Again and likely far crappier than the last time.
Second, he’s a politician. His power is limited, and as shitty as it sounds he retains more of it if he does this. Still may not be significant but some is better than none. From someone with his time in and history, I’d expect nothing less. And no it’s not satisfying at the moment but this is politics. His words have no power but his saying this makes him more of a shitforbrains enemy – but still in a political stance. IOW it is what it is – it is what’s available.
The Audacity of Krope
That’s the thing about sidelining, indeed the whole point, you aren’t supposed to see it. It’s all about making the unwanted view disappear.
The only way to “see” it is to see that point of view and realize for yourself “they never talk about this in any serious way.”
Omnes Omnibus
@pajaro: So Clyburn is really being pilloried for allowing a bad soundbite.
Baud
@The Audacity of Krope:
At the end of the day, it’s up to every political movement to develop their own base of power. I’m not going to get outraged about unseen slights.
In general, the path to power is two fold: 1. Win your primary. 2. Beat your Republican opponent in the general election. If the left wants to get stronger, that’s what they should do in more places.
Dorothy A. Winsor
Donald Trump has already had every break he can get on avoiding the consequences of his crimes. He doesn’t deserve Biden’s pardon.
sab
@cmorenc: I am thinking that Clyburn hopes, in the short run, to make some sort of peace with this guy with a serious personality disorder in order to get some stuff done. Excellent political position shart term, which is what legislators do.
I normally don’t go for vengeance type approaches, but I do think that here, with the guy who egged on his people to storm the Capitol and terrorize election workers across the country, we really need to pass on just looking forward and leave open the option of later prosecutions. Let his people prove he was incompetent by reason of insanity or dementia.
sab
@Omnes Omnibus: You are, as always, a useful voice of reason here.
The Audacity of Krope
I agree with this. I’m just coming from a place where they have every right to be upset with Democrats wanting their votes but wanting nothing to do with their ideas. Presenting Republicans as worse, while true, only carries you so far. It has long since crossed the line of taking people for granted.
But by all means let’s keep chastising police reformers and anti-war activists and housing policy reformers for the intemperate remarks of their most isolated supporters instead of taking the useful core of their messages and improving them.
Barbara
@sab: It’s not that my outrage meter is broken, it’s that the hair on fire response to EVERYTHING we don’t like is unlikely to help, and more specifically, will likely make it harder to generate focused action when it really is needed.
@The Audacity of Krope: Can you point to specifics that have occurred within the last six months?
Jackie
@zhena gogolia:
If Clyburn was white and advocating for Biden to pardon TCFG, I’d be just as pissed.
Race hasn’t anything to do with a senior Democratic member suggesting TCFG be pardoned.
Baud
@The Audacity of Krope:
If we can’t build a coalition, we can’t build a coalition. I don’t blame anyone for that.
Jeffro
Hell no.
(which happens to also be my take on it)
The Audacity of Krope
No one to speak up for Palestine’s needs during the DNC.
Democrats, by and large, participating in the villainization of University protestors, thus endangering University students
The constant pearl clutching by some about standing up for immigrants and/or trans folk
The Audacity of Krope
@Baud: If we can’t build a coalition, we can’t build a coalition. I don’t blame anyone for that.
But we can. There are just a bunch of elites trying to protect elite access to elite dollars who are supposedly on our side standing in our way. Schiff, Pelosi, et al.
Betty Cracker
Clyburn’s quote has not been misinterpreted or taken out of context. The video is linked in the original post, ffs. Rough transcript (at about 2:15).
CAPEHART: Do you think President Biden should pardon Donald Trump? And if so, why?
CLYBURN: Yes I do think so. And I think he should pardon all those people that have been accused and have been targeted so we can clean the slate.
Baud
@The Audacity of Krope:
I don’t agree that “elites” are preventing us from creating a coalition. That’s too much conspiracy theory for me.
Ruckus
@Jackie:
This.
This is politics. It is what it is, you make the best of the situation in front of you. You won’t always like what you have to do or say but in the overall, you do what you have to do.
We have an incoming president who has the mental capability of moldy toast. IOW not good for anyone but still, what can you do, enough people seemingly wanted moldy toast. They may change their minds when they find out that he doesn’t give two shits about them, any more than he does anyone else on the planet. But I doubt it. Buckle up folks, it’s going to be a bumpy, shitty parade. At best.
Omnes Omnibus
@Betty Cracker: Keep going with the video. The context people were talking about is there.
The Audacity of Krope
@Baud: The elites aren’t preventing it. They’re an element of the existing coalition that is preventing us from building it further because they have the largest share of influence and are using it to protect that same influence via relationships with megadonors. They may not be doing this intentionally, it’s just how their incentives line up.
“Biden is old” didn’t hit critical mass until the big donors faltered. Big donors have too much sway in health and energy policy, certainly in foreign policy. The focus grouping and poll oriented campaigning is why people look at Dems as inauthentic.
I’m not saying the money folk should be written out of the coalition, I’m not like them, but the balance of power sure as shit needs to shift if Democrats are going to make any real headway as a coalition.
Gravenstone
@The Audacity of Krope: Boy, the moron chorus is really coming in hot this morning.
Barbara
@The Audacity of Krope: Police reform, housing costs and anti-war activism are the three areas you identified and you didn’t give any examples of those. Those are here and now domestic issues that do affect voters.
It’s okay — I am very unhappy, I am sure I agree with you a high percentage of the time, but regarding the three things that you did identify — I really question how many people, even young people, ranked Palestine as a priority issue.
The demonizing of immigrants and transgender people is deeply dispiriting and I agree that we need much better messaging. But the pearl clutching and lack of support in those areas are unlikely to have made any difference whatsoever electorally. On that I definitely disagree if you think otherwise.
Ohio Mom
I have mixed feelings about behaviorism (it’s oversold as an autism intervention) but one of its tenets that holds true is “Reward behavior you want to see repeated,” and the colollary, “Don’t reward unwanted behavior.”
I get the confusion about not knowing the best way to defang Trump as much as possible but I can’t see how rewarding his past bad behavior is going to work.
Baud
@The Audacity of Krope:
If anyone walks away from the coalition, it’s their own adult decision to do so. Whoever the “money” people are, I don’t have any basis for believing that their departure from the coalition will increase the size of the coalition.
trollhattan
@Baud: If he’s so stupid as to have not dumped the gun, he deserves to be caught. This is like Chapter 1 of “How to Criminal.”
Barbara
@Ohio Mom: In my view “don’t reward unwanted behavior” includes not jumping to attention only when someone does something you don’t like. There are many people who rightly or wrongly believe negative attention is better than no attention.
Baud
@trollhattan:
Is that the new title for “Art of the Deal”?
trollhattan
@Jackie:
Same goes for giving Reagan a pass on Iran-Contra, some of which IIRC was framed with “It’s too soon after Watergate.”
I don’t know if anybody went on a Sunday chat show to propose, “Everybody knows his brain is pudding, what’s the point?”
trollhattan
@Baud:
Make it so!
TBone
@Baud: he went on The View and said some bullshit AND gave interview(s) saying some bullshit in the last week.
He was steadfast in his support of President Biden this whole time, but now is acting out. I don’t quite know if he’s merely running interference or is serious.
A sample:
https://crooksandliars.com/2024/12/what-hell-happened-sen-john-fetterman
tobie
@Elizabelle: I’m with you on this. Most of us were devastated by the election and want to figure out what went wrong. Populist progressives are gleeful. They think this is their moment and since they’re convinced they speak for the people, they can only win, win, win…their previous electoral performances be damned.
Remember how they tarred and feathered Amy McGrath? Didn’t hear a peep out of them when Charles Booker lost by the same margin.
Ruckus
@Gravenstone:
I have found that blocking the moron chorus is the best way to deal with them. They bring less than zero value to the situation and giving them ink justifies their bullshit in their tiny minds. And eventually they go away when enough folks block them. It’s been that way on the web for as long as it’s existed. It’s why we have the ability to block them. Post rational and even somewhat reasonable and people will listen. They may disagree – that’s humanity at work – but they will likely listen. Post bullshit and make zero friends/defenders. I see that this one basically has that number. If enough block him (I’m assuming it’s a him…) BINGO. Usually takes a day or three. Some are slow learners.
The Audacity of Krope
Id say the campus protests definitely qualify as anti-war activism, but to speak to the other two:
The professional class of Democrats has decided that deriding voters who chanted “defund the police” is a better approach than proposing actually useful police reform.
As far as housing, I have to give props to Kamala for having some good ideas on this, even though they didn’t put them in front as much as I’d have liked. And they weren’t picked up by other Democrats that I saw, so they fell by the wayside. (They even sideline themselves) There’s also a major reluctance here to discuss the very serious trade-offs tackling housing costs would involve because so many people are so invested in home ownership, and the practice of home ownership is something we can’t even dream of discussing in terms of being a problem.
Sometimes I think Dems get too bogged down into details trying to calibrate everything right for umpteen groups. They forget there is a real power in just simply standing up for yourself and your folk that people respond to.
John S.
@Omnes Omnibus:
I watched the full exchange and read the transcript. The context doesn’t remove the stupidity of the original statement.
The Audacity of Krope
I don’t seek to disenfranchise them. They can be here and we have a lot to recommend us as a coalition that will benefit them. But it can’t be just them. They simply have more franchise than they deserve and need to learn to share before the planet catches fire.
Miss Bianca
@zhena gogolia: Oof, that’s an awful thought. Even more awful is wondering whether you might be right.
Donald Trump, the gift that keeps on taking. Jaysus, what did he do to deserve being the luckiest bastard in the universe. Constantly failing up and up and up and up and ruining countless numbers of lives because of it and being REVERED by a significant portion of our populace for doing so.
Betty Cracker
@Omnes Omnibus: I watched the whole thing. It’s not helpful to Clyburn’s defenders, imo. He said what he said.
eclare
@trollhattan:
Up there with “Is you taking notes on a criminal conspiracy?”
BTW Bird was sent to prison for murder, and Omar testified he was too stupid to throw away the gun. Forget which season.
Miss Bianca
@Quinerly: Honestly, I don’t think anyone here is prepared to be the Garland fan club this morning. I could be wrong, of course. I’ve been wrong a time or two before.
Geminid
@eclare: My guess is the shooter– if this is the shooter– kept the gun because he wasn’t through and intended to kill more people.
Miss Bianca
@Jackie: Latin pedant here: It’s Et tu, Brute, because for some reason, the “vocative case” – where you’re calling someone by name – renders the masculine form from -us to -e.
More Fun Facts No One Needed to Know, this morning’s edition!
Gloria DryGarden
Without reading all the comments,
a pardon would be a mockery of the laws,
and of the order of magnitude of the crimes that man has been charged with, in comparison with the petty small things hunter Biden was in trouble for.
Apparently djt can sell anything, turn prosecution into martyrdom, rewrite his criminality into innocence and positive intentions for our nation, and he has sold it successfully to a lot of people who bought his branding and his sales pitch. He has apparently got a lot of the media working in his favor, or directly for him. He’s a master at pr, branding, and grabbing the spot light. And at using the prosecutions to build himself up in public opinion.
And his ability to deluge his audience with a barrage of lying, woven with more lies , and steeped in falsehoods to lull people to believe he could be good for their interests,
Is Beyond Pardon.
It’s unpardonable, all of it.
Just because he’s gotten himself out of a lot of accountability, doesn’t mean he should receive any official absolution. What he’s done is too big, too deep, too damaging. He should not be let off the hook.
I think a pardon for Djt would cause additional harm to the public, our morale, our legal system, and the system of precedents.
Aren’t there experienced experts who maintain the mistake began with pardoning Nixon?
Wouldnt giving him a pardon be another way of obeying in advance?
Its not going to ameliorate anything. Might make it worse. It all might be difficult no matter how we acticpvate ourselves.
YMMV
Citizen Dave
(Sarcasm On) Well on the bright side if trump doesn’t really have dementia, and otherwise can serve out another 4 years and lose again, there’s a damn good chance he attempts another insurrection. So another whack at prosecution.
ETA: Everything Gloria said right above. Stop the Trump bullshit. Let’s try for sanity. Also would welcome lots of new young Dem leaders.
Omnes Omnibus
@John S.: @Betty Cracker: I’ll grant that it was not a good statement. Also, fwiw, I disagree with it. I still think it is more bad sound byte than anything else.
Gravenstone
@Ruckus: Oh, I did. Added two names and suddenly 40% of the thread is null replies. Just goes to show how much they poison the discussion.
John S.
@Omnes Omnibus:
I’m not going to get too bent out of shape over Clyburn’s comments. I’m saving that for if/when Biden follows his advice. I certainly hope he does not.
Barbara
@The Audacity of Krope: I am not exactly pointing fingers at you, but in general, since the election happened I have received more emails and messages from people who are JUST SURE that if only someone had EMPHASIZED THEIR SPECIFIC PRIORITY ISSUE things would have turned out differently. Robert Reich, James Carville and a boatload of others.
So here’s my take: until proven otherwise, misogyny is the front runner, the “issue” most likely to have made the difference. Of course other things matter. But nothing matters as much. So there is actually room for disagreement on Palestine, or the response to students protesting about it, and a whole host of other things.
My whole adult life we have ping ponged between reactionary racially coded cultural grandstanding, not to mention warmongering, and hopeful progressive idealism. I am deeply depressed about where we are now because the gyration feels more dangerous.
But I am damned if I think that IF EVERYBODY JUST LISTENED TO ME EVERYTHING WOULD HAVE TURNED OUT FINE! And yeah, that goes double for Nancy Pelosi and George Clooney and others who though they knew what was best. It turns out they didn’t, but it’s not clear to me we would not have ended up in the same place.
Aussie Sheila
@hrprogressive:
Indeed. What passes for the ‘Left’ in the US looks like Independents in Australia who often vote with the ALP in government, but are usually conservative ‘liberals’.
The US doesn’t have an organised and effective ‘far left’. Just Putinist sympathisers afaict, and idiots who think not voting or worse, encouraging people to vote for trump is some kind of 11 dimensional chess, instead of the objectively reactionary posture it actually is.
As for criticism of the Democratic Party, I criticise the Party I’m a member of and its leadership all the time. And not just privately either. I don’t understand the defensiveness.
The Democratic Party leadership, with the exception of Minority Leader Jeffries is simply far too old. I’ve been retired for 6 years.
I am very healthy with all my marbles, and I shouldn’t be leading any mass political organisation of any kind. And in my country, someone of my age wouldn’t be.
The Party leadership failed. They should resign and be replaced. If you can’t be ruthless with your own Party, you can’t expect them to be ruthless with your opponents.
Gloria DryGarden
@Ohio Mom: agree. Do not reward his behavior.
John S.
@Miss Bianca:
If UncleEbeneezer hasn’t come to Garland’s defense by now, then it’s unlikely anyone else will.
I generally enjoy their comments, but they have a real blind spot when it comes to Garland.
Chris Johnson
Serves me right for un-pieing a couple names…
I can think of one good reason to pardon Trump. Pardon him if you can get him to flip on Putin. All this goes back to Putin trying to wreck our shit so bad that even Republicans don’t want to deal with it. Everybody’s trying to come up with an answer for that and failing, but Putin is also failing everywhere. And old, and irrational.
Flip Trump, have him spill all the beans. Our country is full of idiots who just follow the puppet around, and that’s not who is running anything. Flip Trump, have him work against Putin, convince him that we have more power to strike a finishing blow against Putin than he has to strike down his orange asshole puppet.
It’s transactional, and I’d love to see what goes on in the orange asshole’s head when he hears about Dems wanting to pardon him. I’d like to know what the quid pro quo is on that one. The one thing that bugs me about institutional Dems is that they’re much accustomed to running their own show and treating us voters like hoi polloi who needn’t be let in on the realities of the situation. They have to know what Trump is, so why do we need to act like we don’t know?
John S.
@Aussie Sheila:
Preach.
The Audacity of Krope
Oh, I agree wholeheartedly. But Democrats’ prior capitulations on misogyny hurt here (only white men need apply for 2020 Presidential nomination, for example, probably 2028 too). And we wouldn’t have been in the situation for misogyny to be the deciding factor if panicking Democrats didn’t give Joe Biden the bum rush.
Point is to fucking stand up for ourselves, including leaders on both the “standing” and the “for.” If we had stood up for Biden; not in July, but for the last three years; we’d have been in a better place. If we stood up for women and queer folk and those black communities targeted by police violence sooner, years ago, it might not have sold then. But by now people would have been hearing these arguments for decades and not still be at the “I’m not sure” stage.
Aussie Sheila
@tobie:
Populists whether progressive not, may or may not have a point. In my experience, the ‘issues’ as such don’t make the difference- it’s the ability of the Party to successfully prosecute its case for the issues it believes matter.
Prosecuting your own case takes ferocious organisation and ceaseless propagandising. Things that it appears the Democratic Party as a whole (there are as always, honourable exceptions) and its leadership in particular, don’t seem very keen on.
I make a real exception for Harris/Walz. From here they looked like they waged a very hard fight. I don’t blame either of them at all. Both good candidates, imo.
Barbara
@The Audacity of Krope: Prior capitulation? Uh, no. On this I can’t agree with you.
Soprano2
@Omnes Omnibus: Maybe, but I think it illustrates a weakness Democrats have, because I can’t imagine any Republican saying anything like that if the situations were reversed. TCFG has already had every break imaginable, he doesn’t deserve a pardon because he’s not sorry for anything he did.
The Audacity of Krope
@Barbara: A Democratic Party that can put up Warren, Harris, and Klobuchar for a Presidential nomination and none of them got traction in favor of Biden, Sanders, and Buttiegieg?
I’m sorry. There’s definitely an active strain of misogyny within the Democratic party and among its messengers.
Gloria DryGarden
@Josie: agree
@Dorothy A. Winsor:
exactly
UncleEbeneezer
@Omnes Omnibus: It’s a dumb position by one Dem. If Biden follows this advice he will deserve a lot of criticism for it. But I’m guessing he won’t. And the amount of credit he will get for doing the right thing will be nowhere near the amount of handwringing about the possibility of him doing the wrong thing. Just as he got little/no credit for several decisions he made early on, that actually allowed the investigations/prosecutions of Trump to move forward.
Gloria DryGarden
@Aussie Sheila: it’s good to get an opinion from outside our electorate.
Barbara
@The Audacity of Krope: The problem isn’t the party. It’s the voters. We have female senators and governors and legislators at all levels. We have female judges. The party doesn’t make it impossible for women to run. I dearly wish we had made more progress, there are no doubt strategies we could pursue but to blame the party when very clearly the party had Harris’s back when voters didn’t is just wishful thinking on your part.
Gloria DryGarden
@Miss Bianca: fun facts with useful poetic echoes.
Brute.
brutal
Soprano2
I’m going to deride those people forever, it was an unforced error that handed Republicans a huge stick to beat Democrats with. The only people who think that was a clever slogan are activists. What most people hear is “Democrats want to do away with the police and leave us at the mercy of criminals”, and no matter how much Democrats say no that’s not right, they just keep repeating that Democrats want to defund the police. It’s the kind of help Democrats didn’t need.
The Audacity of Krope
@Barbara: The messaging from the Party mattered. And their participation in the media game. Of course Biden wins D nomination 2020 when everything voters hear in the media is “only Biden can beat Trump, who is an existential threat.”
The elite class of Dems play the media game, but it is a double-edged sword that cuts the Democrats more than anyone else. They need to get a clue.
The Audacity of Krope
And this, right here, is my problem with that view. We’re talking about random nobodies with no media training. The only reason we’re talking about the slogan is because it had Democrats running scared instead of leading and showing a more constructive approach.
Soprano2
@The Audacity of Krope: And yet, somehow, those “random nobodies” got all Democrats branded as criminal-loving people who want to get rid of the police and leave everyone at the mercy of criminals in the minds of half the electorate. That “clever slogan” was an unforced error probably created by a bunch of people who all think alike and didn’t have one thought for how it could be weaponized against them. The first time I heard it I knew exactly what was going to happen, and I wasn’t wrong.
Gloria DryGarden
Speaking of cleaning the slate, I thought maybe we could erase all of black history. Just rewrite the history books, and control what gets published, or read, or discussed.
Also, we need to ensure nobody knows about any women, or black people or any non white persons who invent brilliant useful things we’re still using, or are dependent on. Just keep that hidden, man.
we need to erase and minimize all kinds of events and history. Let people think it’s a country built on bravery and good moral values. Don’t talk about stealing land, or massacres, or treaties broken, cultural genicides, forbidding languages, smallpox blankets. Keep it all on the down low. We’re a good people.
What’s one more set of lies? You can get industrial strength white out, and use it. Liberally.
//s
On the other hand, my friend who grew up in Poland and France has told me this is a country with the most safety and freedoms for its citizens.
We’ll see what happens to that.
Baud
@The Audacity of Krope:
Dems like AOC used it. But most didn’t.
Ruckus
@zhena gogolia:
Going to be a bit frank here. shitforbrains – AKA the person we are discussing, has an ego the size of Montana. Said ego likely has a negative appreciation level for most breathing, normal humans and likely because it is extremely self centered, far more than the vast or at least a majority of egos. This is an ego that feeds on one of two things, money and/or position. It has some money and way, way too much position. And makes crappy decisions.
His ego is far bigger and more out of touch than most humans. In a position that really does not need an out sized, over compensating – and without any actual reason to be that way and an actual reason for not being that way. Hang on, the ride will be unforgettable, no matter how hard you want that and how hard you try.
John S.
@The Audacity of Krope:
Apparently we can count Adam Schiff as part of the bipartisanship cult. This is exactly the kind of shit we don’t need from our elected Democrats.
I don’t expect them to signal their rage or how they plan to oppose Trump, but at least they can shut their fucking mouths about being so eager to work with Trump and the Republicans.
The Audacity of Krope
Yes. This is explicitly because of those “media-savvy” Democrats playing the media’s game. That would have gotten no traction if a few opportunistic lawn order Dems didn’t decide to pick up that ball and beat their voters with it.
The slogan and the activists aren’t to blame. I can’t think of any prominent Democrats running on “defund the police,” but several assailing it.
The practice of holding left-affiliated activists to a higher standard than Republican elected officials needs to end. A good place to start would be Democrats not participating in the deplorable media game.
Quinerly
@Baud:
Join the club. Geez.
I don’t pie but I do skip.
Gloria DryGarden
@Ruckus: an ego the size of Texas. Of Ukraine. An ego the size of hitler. Or of the amazon, a big buggy swamp full of resources, mismanagement, and floods. ( just teasing out a few difficulties, out of really so much good hidden in its mysteries, so this is a bad example , or a poor metaphor)
Really enjoyed the use of “It” as the primary pronoun, throughout your paragraph. A method worth emulating. A useful writing tactic, to frame it this way.
besides, it refocuses my attention on the behaviors, instead of hating the person. That’s better for my nervous system. And then I can talk about IT.
(less attention on mr headline grabber)
The Audacity of Krope
@John S.: I’m not against working with Republicans when they put forward good ideas. Issue is that they mostly won’t and we shouldn’t be leading people to expect that. Also, I haven’t heard a good (albeit not ideal) idea from a Republican since Dubya’s attempt at immigration reform.
But I’m not surprised at all. Schiff made himself one of the most visible faces of the Donorcrat wing of the party this year.
The Audacity of Krope
@Baud: Note, AOC very much still in office.
Baud
@The Audacity of Krope:
Super Blue district. The point is, a prominent Dem endorsed the idea.
Gloria DryGarden
@Quinerly: like you, I don’t pie, but I do scroll past, or skim a few lines, and move on. It doesn’t exactly clean the slate. But it curates which art works I display in my gallery.
I had the nerve to write some longer comments late on this thread.
wishing you wonderful hikes and pleasant skies, and great pizzas at the pubs.
The Audacity of Krope
@Baud: That’s one. Weigh that against what’s going on in the rest of the party. Opposition to the slogan became a reason not to take the reform effort seriously. Many more Democrats, up to and including Biden, were very public in denouncing that slogan.
So what happened? The slogan gained purchase in the public imagination (Thanks, Biden), which was used as a cudgel against Democrats. And the reform activists came to see Democrats as bad allies.
The reaction against the slogan by Democrats hurt Democrats, no matter where they landed on the substance of the debate. Elevating a better slogan alongside a slate of realistic policies would have been a better approach in my mind.
John S.
@The Audacity of Krope:
I agree. But I must have missed all the times Republicans came out in favor of bipartisanship after Democrats won an election. There are certainly some who ended up voting for Democratic policies, but they didn’t exactly run around crowing about it.
Republicans spent more time taking credit for the things they voted against than what they actually voted for.
Quinerly
@Gloria DryGarden:
Great hike this AM with JoJo. Tuckered that boy out. Got a good picture of one of these border patrol blimps (at least that’s what 2 people at gas stations have told me). It was “resting” in its native habitat. I got pretty close. Pic is up on my Book of Faces if you want to peek.
My much discussed pizza with potates “date” has been moved to Thurs. Simon has class on Wed.
Baud
@The Audacity of Krope:
I think the Republicans did a good job demonizing the slogan, just like they did with immigrants and trans people. There was no amount of bravery that was going to overcome that.
The Audacity of Krope
I have a comprehensive list ready to go:
The Audacity of Krope
This may be. But I’m not proposing simple bravery, though they needed that too. They needed to hear their constituents, hear that sloppy slogan, pluck whatever is useful out of it, and propose something actually constructive. This is what we pay them for, no?
ETA: What Democrats actually did with their approach as a party ensured that neither the pro- or anti-reform side was with them.
John S.
@The Audacity of Krope:
LOL, gotta love a null set.
Aussie Sheila
@Barbara:
Truly, once you start blaming the electorate, you are lost. Don’t do that if you want to win. It’s like the joke about East Germany ‘ the people have failed, we must elect another’.
The Audacity of Krope
@John S.: Especially a comprehensive null set.
Gloria DryGarden
@prostratedragon: it’s not opening. Will try on another device, or use my library, which probably has a subscription. It looks interesting.
zhena gogolia
@Miss Bianca: I was never in anyone’s “fan club.” I have defended Garland against what I view as unrealistic and gratuitous attacks. But I’ve given up on that quixotic endeavor.
Miss Bianca
@Old Man Shadow:
Who was that guy, again? Wasn’t he too old or something?
UncleEbeneezer
@John S.: By blindspot you mean that I acknowledge:
1.) the countless other causes that slowed the investigation/prosecution efforts (instead of only blaming Garland) and
2.) the fact that the Supreme Court always had the ability to delay everything past the election (which they did) and dismiss the case (which they 99% did did and could do the remaining 1% if DOJ ever tries to revive the case) so…
3.) all your obsessive, second-guessing of Garland’s decisions was completely pointless, unless your point was just to find someone to blame to make yourself feel better or to vent your frustration (both of which I understand and share to some extent)
Gloria DryGarden
@Quinerly: I’m imagining a very interesting conversation about music, street busking, orchestra jobs, what musicians arrange to do forvmoney until it comes together. My sister became a Suzuki violin instructor, she, her 3 boys and her husband play at least 7 instruments between them.
im still trying to imagine what could go on a potato pizza. Maybe it’s a white sauce not tomato sauce. Then I can come up with ideas.
wishing you many more lovely hikes. Longing for any plant pix of beauty ir detail. It’s not exactly bloom season, winter details are a different thing..
Timill
@Quinerly: They have Norwegian Blue blimps these days?
Geminid
@Aussie Sheila: Besides Minority Leader Hakeem Jeffries, who is 54, the other Semocratic House leaders are the Whip, Katherine Clark, 61; Caucus Chairman Pete Aguilar, 45; and Assistant Chairman Joe Neguse, who is 40 years old. That seems to me like a good age distribution for these leadership posts.
Gloria DryGarden
@UncleEbeneezer: so glad to read this comment.
Frustration. Yes.
Complexity and multiple factors. yes.
Unable to do much about it from here…
Instead of holiday carols and festive colors, I may wear black, and sing songs of bitchiness and shouting into the void.
Really shouting super loud is best on a mountain hike in an unpopulated valley, after the other hikers have gone home. Winter isn’t a great time for it unless one is in canyon country. Oh well.
Aussie Sheila
@Geminid:
Sure. But how about Committee chairpersons, although I note Nadler has moved to make way for the far more effective Raskin. And as for the Senate!
My god, it’s unbelievable. The fact that Feinstein was allowed to carry on for as long as she did is a disgrace. Not for her, but for a State Party, a national flag carrier Party if I’m not mistaken, that simply wouldn’t or couldn’t make her stand down. I don’t believe in elected pols having that power.
I’m a firm believer in a strong and effective Party organisation that ensures continuity and effectiveness and resigns en mass when it fucks up. There’s always plenty of young and ambitious wannabes who can take the reins.
Cemeteries are full of indispensable people.
Miss Bianca
@Chris Johnson: Wow. Huh. That’s quite a take! (no sarcasm intended)
tam1MI
Schiff is despicable. He had no problems defenestrating his own goddamn President in July, but with Trump he pisses himself and tugs his forelock.
The Audacity of Krope
@tam1MI: Hear, hear.
Miss Bianca
@John S.: I have to admit I am deeply disappointed in Adam Schiff. Indeed, disgusted. I had a better opinion of him once upon a time (like, when he came to a Balloon Juice Zoom for example. I gave him a lot of props for being willing to do that.) I had a bit of a fangirl-ing thing for him going on when he was one of the most eloquent voices about the threat posed by Jan 6.
tam1MI
People kept voting for her, even when not voting for her meant that another Democrat would have taken her seat. Sometimes it is the electorates fault.
Aussie Sheila
@tam1MI:
Again, no, it’s not the electorate’s fault. It’s the fault of people who think that primary voters should run a political Party. They are a powerful force, rightfully so, but they can’t do their good thing if their Party organisation is weak and permits elected pols to make their own rules.
No one should have been permitted to stand again at her age and in her condition.
In fact I don’t believe anybody should be in elected office over the age of their late 60s.
Ruckus
@TBone:
I had zero to one hundred in ten seconds but the concept is the same.
But this is an insane time. We’ve reelected a ……. I really have no words why anyone would think this person is any kind of leader, accepts any kind of responsibility, is capable of doing the job, when he wasn’t last time – and has declined farther and has an ego to boost that will cost a very unfair amount. But then it’s likely that’s not what a portion of voters actually wanted.
Chris Johnson
@Miss Bianca: It’s quite a situation. Part of it is, I just refuse to line up with Balloon Juice progressives I have pied. I think I have some sense of what’s gone on, but damn if I have any idea what to do about any of it.
Maybe they’re right about Clyburn, but remember not to take things at face value, especially now. People would’ve sworn blind that Syria would endure forever because it was allied with Russia. We’re way off the map.
Geminid
@Aussie Sheila: Your points about the Senate are well taken even if they’re not news to me. Although, you may not know that the 6 incoming Democratic Senators will be collectively 105+years younger than their predecessors. That would be Elissa Slotkin (MI), Angela Alsobrooks (MD), Ruben Gallego (AZ), Lisa Blunt Rochester (DE), Adam Schiff (CA) and Andy Kim (NJ). This counts for something in my book at least.
I mentioned the age of our House leadership because you said that all our leadership besides Hakeem Jeffries needed to be replaced on account of age. I’m not blaming you for not knowing more about their ages; a lot of people don’t pay attention to these matters. But when you made that sweeping statement I wanted to counter it.
John S.
@UncleEbeneezer:
Uh huh. Whatever gets you through the day. I hope you get something nice from Garland for being President of his fan club in recognition of your service.
Miss Bianca
@Aussie Sheila: Well, you know, I do find myself wondering how American history might have been different if anyone at the Constitutional Convention had told 84-y.o. Ben Franklin, “go home, Gramps, you’re too old for this kind of thing.”
Then again, ol’ Ben wasn’t holding an electoral position, so maybe his age and wisdom were just seen as being an asset, rather than a liability.
Ruckus
@zhena gogolia:
I think you under estimate.
He is a pompous, arrogant, far worse than useless jackass. Which is what a large enough portion of the population seemingly wanted.
Will we survive?
I think that is an unknown. And if we do will this be the country we should want, and need or the one that feeds egos that have zero concept of reality, possibilities, how dangerous this pompous far worse than useless jackass can be, is? Not having been alive for over 200 years I don’t know the answers but I can imagine that the fucking around and finding out premise is on the road, still in first gear, but with an almost full tank of bullshit and bravado, and that isn’t a very good premise.
The Audacity of Krope
I can’t endorse this notion at all. I will say that of all the older folks in office, Dianne Feinstein is the one who managed to stay well past her ability to perform.
Still, that is not on anyone to decide but voters. These elections are 2, 4, 6 years apart. One would think at some point the average person could find 15 minutes to figure out what their elected representatives are up to. And if they want someone who can’t enunciate their own name, that’s their god-given right as Americans.
Ruckus
@Jackie:
What is Clyburn’s motive and justification for backstabbing Biden?
I’d say power and protection for himself. Biden is not coming back, is not going to retaliate in this instance (or likely any other) and has little to offer Clyburn. Clyburn is/was playing both sides and will go with the side that offers him the most of whatever it is he’s looking for or can get. IOW, a jackass.
Ruckus
@TBone:
This is not a grand time in the US.
It isn’t going to get grander any time soon.
People are not going to be happy any time soon. Some because shitforbrains is not going to be able to do as much damage as many think he will, some because he does any at all, and most because he will do as much as possible and what is illogical and stupid. (he has to go with his strengths)
Aussie Sheila
@The Audacity of Krope:
Well we disagree then. I understand if an elected pol is elected in her early 60s for a four to six or even eight year term and is in her late 60s when she retires, although I don’t approve of someone that age being an elected rep. But whatever.
I think the age range for vigorous and useful electeds is around 25-55 yrs. and the useful time in Office no more than 30 years.
Nothing stops oldsters like me being a mentor to younger wannabe pols, or from being tapped for advice now and then on an informal basis by Party organisers or Officials. It’s all good. I remember things that younger people have no way of knowing.
But under no circumstances, none whatsoever should someone my age still be in an elected position. And I’m in excellent physical shape, and I trust, mentally still capable!
The Audacity of Krope
@Aussie Sheila: I’m pretty absolute on voters being able to choose for themselves. It helps that I have the recent example of someone who was slagged for being old, I disliked for different reasons, who got elected and performed better in office than anyone I’ve ever seen hold the job.
Then open, public bigotry; grotesque, bad-faith, and self-serving; from his own party got in the way.
Aussie Sheila
@The Audacity of Krope:
Well from the point of view of effective Party organisation, I’m not in favour of the rank and file of a Party actually running its nuts and bolts. Preselecting people for elected positions?
Sure, absolutely, so long as they are Party members in good standing.
But running a Party and making its Rules free from any organisational constraints or responsibilities?
No, I would never ever agree to that.
WTFGhost
Hunter Biden was the target of selective, malicious, prosecution, and, the judge wouldn’t even let the jury hear that his back taxes were paid, which is why he made an open plea. I don’t care if it was the same sentence, I don’t care if it was the same paragraph, I don’t care if it was a different episode, of the same TV show, with a different interviewer, but no ethical actor could discuss pardoning Hunter Biden, and Trump, inside the same *BRAIN*, other than to discuss how one is a perfect example of executive clemency, and the other was not.
The Audacity of Krope
@Aussie Sheila: Well, I don’t even think the whole Party thing is working out too well. In my mind, the parties already have too much sway over the whole of our politics. They just exercise it by making statements to friendly connections in the media rather than through exerting power directly over the party apparatus, which would be unseemly.
The last thing we need is for party apparatchiks, barely known to voters if at all, pre-clearing our candidates. There will be no space for moving official party positions. Get in line or you aren’t on the ballot. Individuals need not apply.
Aussie Sheila
@WTFGhost:
Exactly. Biden was right to pardon his son. And trump and every Republican is wrong to pardon to anybody who had anything remotely to do with an attempted coup, and with trumps outrageous theft of documents belonging to the US government. Why is this so hard?
UncleEbeneezer
@John S.: I only get the satisfaction of knowing I can recognize when problems are complex, are multiply-determined by several factors and don’t have a childishly simplistic explanation.
Ryan
If you pardon coups of the past, you invite coups in the future.