One technique Repubs use to undermine government is to gain control of it by complaining about public spending since lots of people resent paying taxes. Then, they redirect tax dollars to rich and connected Repubs, starving public programs of funds. Then, they point out that those broke-ass programs suck since they don’t serve the public. Then, they use that twisted logic to justify further cuts that benefit themselves and their cronies.
This scam has been operating all my life in the county where I live, which went for Trump by around 75% in 2020 and 2024 and in which no Democrat holds any elective office and hasn’t for as long as I can remember. I’m currently experiencing how that plays out in real life in an incredibly annoying way.
Our property was flooded after the two hurricanes, and since our water is supplied by a well that was underwater for a few weeks, we don’t know if it’s safe to drink or not. We’ve been using bottled water ever since we got home, which is expensive and a pain in the ass.
I contacted the county health department to find out how to get our well water tested. A woman in environmental services there said the county used to test residents’ water samples but “the state took that away” several years ago. She said now testing is done through state-certified private labs and referred me to the closest one, which is more than 30 miles away.
When I called, the private lab folks told me to drive to their facility (60-mile roundtrip), pick up some testing bottles, go home and collect samples, return the bottles with samples to the facility and pay $50 bucks for the test. I will do it because I need to know if our water is safe.
Theoretically, I could get a commercial water service out here to test our well water, but that would be a pain in the ass because we’re so far out in the boonies that it’s hard to schedule such visits, and that type of company would have an incentive to sell me purification equipment I don’t necessarily need.
But hey, privatization leads to greater government efficiency, amiright? And Florida being Florida, I’ll eat my fucking shoe if the awarding of these state lab certifications is on the up-and-up. I guaran-damn-tee you someone is shoveling money at Repubs.
This is a single small example of how the scam works in a corrupt red state, which doesn’t allow counties to provide water testing services for residents but DOES allow donors to install a $45K golf simulator in the governor’s mansion. (I may have made this observation aloud at the county health department.)
But that’s small potatoes. This country is about to get a much more robust lesson in how Repub grifting screws taxpayers when the billionaire clowns in the Trump administration destroy public programs and funnel trillions into their own pockets. And lots of idiots who vote will conclude that the government sucks because it’s not working for them.
Open thread.
Another Scott
I recently heard my lefty SIL complaining about bond issues in Austin, TX for their light rail system that she thinks has never met its promises. She says she’s voted for 3 of them but won’t vote for any more. And complaining about school bond issues for a school board that is somehow corrupt.
She thinks her taxes are too high because elected officials are shoveling public money to their cronies.
I tried to push back that if you don’t vote for bond issues, then you’re starving essential systems for funding and playing into the GOP monsters’ hands. She didn’t want to hear it.
It’s Texas, and she is pretty close to being on the horseshoe left. But it illustrates what we’re up against.
Of course corruption is bad. But the solution is to vote out the corrupt people, not cut funding for essential government systems.
[ sigh ] ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Thanks.
Hang in there.
Best wishes,
Scott.
JerseyBeard
Elect idiots to the government get idiotic government. Elect nihilistic idiots and well, {waves hands around vaguely at most of the US)…you see.
People need to decide they either like civilization or not, and if they do, they need to grow the fuck up about what it takes to bring about civilization: i.e. TAXES and competent people to execute the programs those taxes fund.
We as a culture need to stop making being an idiot a point of pride.
hrprogressive
The Fascist GOP has actually managed to make the following scam work:
“Government sucks! Put us in charge”
/voters do this. Government gets worse. Democrats eventually get a chance to fix it.
“Government is broken and doesn’t work for you! Put us in charge”
Without ever telling anyone the only reason Government is broken is because THEY FUCKING BROKE IT.
I don’t really know how they’ve managed to pull this off but they have.
LivinginExile
Your county sounds like mine, 74, 75% for trump. Hancock county Illinois, a real red neck wet dream. Also known for violent mobs. Just ask Joseph Smith.
E.
This is the problem with throwing up our hands and letting the majority party destroy itself. Bad government leads to worse government no matter who is in charge. We have to fight them.
comrade scotts agenda of rage
The outsourcing of governmental services is the road to tyranny.–Trenz Pruca
Just more neoliberal, Reaganomic crap. They lead off with “it saves money” when outsourcing services However, it always costs the governmental entity more than if they simply staffed up internally.
Outsourcing in general is like this. If you go into thinking “I don’t have to worry about this, vendor X will solve this problem for me” you’re almost certainly going to get screwed. You need to get every detail into the contract, and spend almost as many hours riding them to deliver on everything to your substantive satisfaction.
Outsourcing firms throw (relatively) cheap bodies at tasks, they deploy resources stupidly and haphazardly according to their profit motive, and they live in a world where running up the bill, not delivering a working system, is the end goal.
The outsourcing of governmental services is the road to tyranny. Every time you contract away the public good to a for-profit company democracy dies.
I saw this play out, and was very personally involved in it, for 27+ years in Federal IT.
TBone
Ah, the town of Grafton, NH beckons!
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/21534416/free-state-project-new-hampshire-libertarians-matthew-hongoltz-hetling
NaijaGal
I just had to share this Bluesky link from Jamelle Bouie on voters’ reasons for reelecting Trump.
https://bsky.app/profile/jamellebouie.net/post/3lcxhpaf6ls2u
Some are obviously lying about their true reasons, but the amount of misinformation is staggering (“he believes in Christ,” “he’s a good businessman,” “he’s going to take on fighting the big healthcare corporations”).
A democracy can’t function if the majority of the people who actually vote are living in an alternate news reality.
TBone
Also, I almost fell prey to water purification salesman when testing our new well water at the cabin. Luckily, we’d called more than one guy, and someone named Leon showed up and told us the truth (safe with minimal filtration) even though he too was selling big, fancy filtration systems. We got a filter system at Walmart that fit under the countertop.
Then, the next year, Amazon sent faulty replacement filters (Walmart was no longer selling them) and we were forced to pay way too much for the real deal elsewhere.
Old Man Shadow
Should be especially fun when people my age (50) try to retire and discover that Elon and Trump and Mike (Don’t touch my) Johnson have backed Social Security with bitcoin.
Barbara
I sometimes joke that if ALEC had been around in the 1930s large parts of the country would still lack electricity. Just for reference, I have a home away from home that is located in a fairly rural part of Virginia and there are no county services for testing water safety, but there are pick-up and drop-off locations for state certified commercial services that partner with local merchants, including a hardware store in the nearest town, so I wouldn’t have to drive more than a few miles.
If you live in a rural location I think it’s always going to be more complicated and difficult to access services, the question is, what kind of services and how difficult. I hope your water is okay.
Jobeth
@NaijaGal: whenever someone gives me the “run the government like a business” reason my answer is always “you mean like Comcast – your shitty cable company? “. Insert miserable corporate entity of your choosing.
Trivia Man
@LivinginExile: ehh – he kind of brought that on himself. I was raised with one version of the Nauvoo lynch mob story. Apparently there really are two sides and Charlatan Joe isnt quite as innocent as once thiught.
Belafon
@hrprogressive: Because they don’t say “Government is broken and doesn’t work for you! Put us in charge.” They say “Democrats are trying to make your boys into girls and your girls get abortions and make you pay for a black man to be in charge of you. We will protect you.”
Motivated Seller
Totally agree. The problem is that Republicans are willing to ruin public service in pursuit of power, and Democrats do not. Perversely, Democrats have no answer for the “burn-it-down” vote that Republicans so excellently cultivate.
Either Democrats break out of the 2-party system, or the system collapses on its own. With so much of the Democratic establishment singularly invested in keeping things approximating “normal,” I don’t have high hopes.
Belafon
@Barbara: I’m waiting for when Republicans cripple the USPS, and prices to receive things suddenly get way more expensive in rural areas compared to the cities, and the Republicans blame city people for being subsidized.
Jeffro
yesterday on my FB page, I posted an article about how the GOP wanted to cut Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, and more because “spending was out of control/unsustainable” and the deficit “was exploding”
in that same article, The Turtle said that tax cuts had nothing to do with the deficit and were not the problem.
the article was from 2018
here we are just 6 short years later, and they’re running the same play, all because the suckers wanted cheaper eggs.
Betty’s right about how this country is about to get a “robust lesson in how Repub grifting screws taxpayers when the billionaire clowns in the Trump administration destroy public programs and funnel trillions into their own pockets.”
the problem is, in order for it to be a ‘lesson’, people would have to actually learn something.
and I see no evidence of that.
HinTN
No matter what the test says, Betty C, pour a gallon of bleach down that well and then run every faucet until the water smells of bleach. Shut down and let it set. Then run every faucet again to purge the well and pipes.
No matter what you think, you need a UV light on that system. Please install it!
Good luck
TBone
@HinTN: good advice. Full service blog!
Trivia Man
For many years i have been pondering the viability of alternative civilization path. Started when i heard about California communes as a wee lad and i have pur a great deal of thought into their strengths and weaknesses.
Without doubt, an effective central government is the best counter to big business. As it has always been, the rich use their resources for regulatory capture and write the rules for their benefit. Unless you are one of the wealthy, an individual has zero chance to fight that power.
Absent that effective government, I believe the only hope is smaller associations. Labor unions for example.
But also things like an Intentional Community can help counter those forces. In this particular example, one of the community could become educated on water issues. Perhaps collect the samples for 20 neighbors and negotiate bulk pricing. Do that 60 mile trip for all 20 neighbors and free up all that time.
You need to be mindful of the 4 P’s when you align, details available upon request – perhaps i will write a full essay one day.
Plumbing (and other infrastructure)
Predators (scammers, molesters, thieves and such)
Parasites (no free loaders, even the disabled can contribute)
Posterity (wha happens next year? Or in 25? 100?)
TBone
@TBone: Mother Nature rights many wrongs.
rikyrah
In My Villain Era (@DMC0821) posted at 10:25 PM on Mon, Dec 09, 2024:
Idk who needs to hear this, but some little rich white jock high out of his mind from eating mushrooms killing a random CEO isn’t going to help spark a national socialist revolution.
Especially when this country, by and large, reelected a disgraced CEO billionaire. https://t.co/drM4PYVYGR
(https://x.com/DMC0821/status/1866338323511628261?t=8KKKLKvvmvKlNFFzD7kYpQ&s=03)
NeenerNeener
@comrade scotts agenda of rage: Outsourcing backfires in corporate IT too. I worked for a major corporation for 14 years, and they decided their IT budget was too high so they outsourced to EDS. The IT bill doubled when EDS took over, because whoever did the negotiating assumed, incorrectly, that it would cost the same to have an EDS employee drop by your desk and fix your issues as it would for an actual employee of the IT department.
A Ghost to Most
The selfish and self-righteous are easy to grift.
kirbster
I have a pretty good idea of how congressional Republicans will shred the Social Security and Medicare/Medicaid safety nets. First, they’ll propose making Medicaid into block grants to the states, washing their hands of the whole program. Next, they’ll sell means-testing for Social Security and Medicare as a “common sense” solution to any funding problems. They’ll probably get some support from some centrists and conserva-dems. Well-to-do seniors will take an immediate hit, but it won’t kill them. And now the seeds are planted. Social Security and Medicare have been transformed from safety net programs for all into welfare programs, and current higher salary workers will no longer support them because they’re never going to see any benefits from them. The programs will limp along for a while with reduced benefits for the less affluent seniors already enrolled, but Social Security and Medicare will be fatally wounded.
Belafon
@rikyrah: People want things fixed, but they still want to vote for the party that gives them permission to hate others.
Michael Bersin
“….So, when we talk about government systems, this is why it’s important to get systems. Because when they talk about, when they try to legislate and use legislative violence against our community it’s important we know these systems so we can use these same systems against them….”
On Sunday evening I covered an LGBTQIA+ community Townhall at an establishment on Main Street in Kansas City. Over 150 people attended the standing room only event. We got to the location at 4:30 p.m., with the speakers (a lot) starting at 5:00 p.m. We left the venue after 7:00 p.m.
I shot over 900 frames and recorded audio. Self care, self defense, personal legal issues, political power, and many other current aspects of our shared environment were on the table.
They keynote speaker, Justice Horn:
Justice Horn – LGBTQIA+ Townhall Meeting – Kansas City, Missouri – December 8, 2024
Steve LaBonne
@Jeffro: Indeed. I have watched Ohio become a crappier and crappier place to live since I moved back in 2001. The response to Republicans making things worse is always to vote Republican even harder. I am not optimistic that there is actually a breaking point.
Bill Arnold
@kirbster:
Yep. They plan to turn Medicare and Social Security into Welfare for Old People.
Concurrently, manipulators (sophisticated propagandists) on the right, funded by the very very wealthy, will ramp up demonizing old people who are not affluent, targeting subgroups among the gullible young with crafted group-specific propaganda, A/B testing the propaganda all the while for effectiveness.
ETA success of such malignant propaganda efforts is not guaranteed; identify them early and often, actively call them out with punchy sound-bitey counter-narratives, etc.
different-church-lady
@JerseyBeard: [shrug] Civilizations fail.
UncleEbeneezer
@NaijaGal: I’m more and more coming to the conclusion that pretty much every theory of why we lost, the problem with Dems etc., is a category error. We are trying to make sense of something (voter behavior) that just doesn’t make much sense. Voters are un/misinformed, fickle, erratic, have no coherent political worldview, worship “business-owners”, hate taxes, and reflexively want to let the other party have another chance regardless of how awful the other party has acted. And if you ask 50 voters why they voted the way they did you will get 40+ different reasons (many of them probably not even being honest). I don’t know that any conclusion we reach can possibly be on solid ground.
different-church-lady
@kirbster: “I am old and you have been tracking how much I have paid into the system to the dollar” is a kind of means test.
Splitting Image
@Barbara:
This is what really galls me about the Republican coalition. Every plank in the GOP platform is a wet dream for the sort of urbanite who fantasizes about how to make hicks living outside the city suffer.
On that level, I can understand why certain types of city-living sociopaths support the Republicans. Elon Musk and Peter Thiel, for example. But the three quarters of rural voters who back them are voting to kick in their own teeth.
Electrifying a city grid, or supplying clean water, is comparatively easy in a city even with the large numbers of people because there is not much ground to cover. Even delivering the mail is easier. Servicing the boonies is a lot less profitable and only happens because somebody is there to say “Nope. Everyone has the right to this service.”
So upon discovering the existence of an entity forcing someone to supply them with clean water, three quarters of rural America nods and says “It’ll have to go.”
Steve LaBonne
@Bill Arnold: It’s actually not means testing that will kill Medicare, it’s Medicare “Advantage”, which was designed by Republicans to divert money from health care to corporate profits. I expect they will very quickly implement the Project 2025 plank of making “Advantage” the default for new enrollees. That will also accelerate the bankruptcy of Medicare since “Advantage” costs the system 6% more per head than actual Medicare. This will work a lot faster than means testing (which they will also do, of course).
WaterGirl
@NaijaGal: Just catching up on posts from yesterday and today.
You are on fire!
rikyrah
Donald Trump is a white DEI hire (@Needle_of_Arya) posted at 5:33 PM on Mon, Dec 09, 2024:
The words, “Don’t ruin his life!” have got to be the 4 most fatefully patriarchal & white supremacist words in the entire English language.
(https://x.com/Needle_of_Arya/status/1866265036357763572?t=PgK3rpbJNjH9IbpBaCfzdQ&s=03)
Bill Arnold
@Steve LaBonne:
[channeling RW sociopaths] Why not both?
rikyrah
#JoeMama![]()
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(@Mama4Obama1) posted at 7:20 AM on Tue, Dec 10, 2024:
It just is so funny to me that Black working class people have no problem understanding that the Democrats are on the side of working people but white working class folks don’t and vote for racist policies as a substitute for progress and their best interests . Talk about that !
(https://x.com/Mama4Obama1/status/1866473167054938368?t=uWTBW5l3xrRWa2LX_phh5Q&s=03)
Suzanne
Interesting piece in Political Wire: Democrats Didn’t Keep Up with How Voters Get Their News
So, if there’s any good news about FTFNYT and the Sunday morning shows and others….. it’s that they don’t matter!
Steve LaBonne
@Bill Arnold: Oh, it’ll be both, but destruction via privatization will work faster. At 69, I fully expect that what they do will take years off my lifespan.
Fair Economist
This has been a keystone of conservative strategy for a while now. They worsen governance not just to convince people it’s not helpful, but also to make them more miserable, because miserable people are easier to manipulate.
As the saying goes, “the cruelty is the point”.
Trivia Man
@Belafon: they already have seen a notable degradation of USPS service. I’ve heard horror stories of medication delays in particular. “Run government like a business “ never seems to register with people as equaling “maximize profits at the expense of service supplied to users”
Steve LaBonne
@Trivia Man: I gave up on USPS in 2016. I would love to get my prescriptions by mail (as I used to) rather than schlepping to the drugstore, but I have no confidence that they would come on time.
rikyrah
FactsLivesMatter 🟤 (@Facts0601) posted at 8:33 PM on Mon, Dec 09, 2024:
The Gaza protests hurt Democrats a lot.
Leftists blocking traffic, gluing their asses to the street, harassing Jewish people, saying anyone who doesn’t support October 7 is pro-genocide, the list goes on.
People are tired of that annoying, preachy bullshit.
(https://x.com/Facts0601/status/1866310130666545485?t=ibcuWPCOw47y_O58QItWEg&s=03)
Longtime Black Man Here (@groove_sdc) posted at 9:43 PM on Mon, Dec 09, 2024:
They knew that. That was the point.
There’s a reason they disappeared after the election.
(https://x.com/groove_sdc/status/1866327958748848287?t=nIw8iEaiGh4dOko79UtEGw&s=03)
Steve LaBonne
@rikyrah: A strategy that has been working for slaveowners and their modern spiritual descendants since colonial times.
rikyrah
Christopher Webb (@cwebbonline) posted at 6:37 PM on Mon, Dec 09, 2024:
I hope when Trump carries out his mass deportation, journalists drag every bit of it out into the light of day. Americans need to see what they voted for.
DON’T FORGET: Mass deportation IS family separation. Cruelty was the point the first time—this will be a supersized https://t.co/PgB3bSKVXt
(https://x.com/cwebbonline/status/1866281094338826247?t=EshXiYxgcrDZ4hJhyxf5EA&s=03)
Another Scott
@UncleEbeneezer: +1
As someone else said, hot takes will be the death of us all.
The answer, as always, is getting our voters to turn out. Our voters are lefties, moderates, non-insane people, people who hate the other guys, folks who have always voted Democrat, folks worried about the future, and folks who want to have joy, people willing to look at evidence from overseas and learn from it, folks who care about others, folks who want to throw the other bums out, and folks who want to punish the other guys for a very particular thing that was done to their family, and on and on.
This stuff isn’t easy. Messages have to be tailored to our big complex voting public.
Making it easier to vote, stressing the need to vote, stressing the consequences for their families and their futures, stressing the big picture, and how we all need to work together, is part of the picture. Meeting people where they live (put up billboards everywhere!!11ONE, get on local media!!, work with local groups!!) is important. Talking and listening and finding common ground is important. Recognizing that progress has to be incremental for it to last is important. Humans hate change…
How to do all that? Dunno. I hope Wikler and MOM and the others running for DNC chair talk about things like that, and the choice is more than “vote for me because I know how to raise money”, and local and state parties do the same…
Thanks.
Best wishes,
Scott.
Trivia Man
@JerseyBeard: my biggest take away from the History of Byzantium podcast is the importance of a structured government. Collecting taxes is important and just as important is the STRUCTURE to collect taxes. Even when they lost ateas in batyle, their stable structure allowed them to quickly recover. 1,000 + years was not an accident or good luck. Constantinople was impregnable s the mechanism and the records were kept intact at all times.
rikyrah
DCPetterson.bsky.social (@dcpetterson) posted at 5:05 PM on Mon, Dec 09, 2024:
It was never about age.
It was never about the price of eggs.
It was never about gas prices,
It was never about inflation.
It was never about Gaza.
It was always about racism
and misogyny
and transphobia
and white nationalism.
It was always about hate.
Bigots wanted Trump.
(https://x.com/dcpetterson/status/1866257833194590223?t=qmx2E7WR11n0UPC9pe5wOw&s=03) z
rikyrah
Nene (@Quen231) posted at 10:23 AM on Mon, Dec 09, 2024:
I hear so many Republicans saying that they won’t mind paying higher prices once Trump’s tariffs kick off. This election was never about the economy. It was about Trump’s racist rhetoric towards immigrants, Kamala being a woman & a woman of color, and hate. #TheView #FAFO
(https://x.com/Quen231/status/1866156606473314660?t=R6FJ5ymiSx3bPRdB3pczxg&s=03)
Betsy
I’m close to someone who’s the head of a major metro county well testing program. Knows everything there is to know about drinking water from wells, including private and public testing. If you have any questions you’d like me to pass along to that person, please let me know. I’d be glad to try help get any information or answers that you think could be useful to you.
Hoodie
@Fair Economist: The shittier governance is more a product of the corruption than anything else. I have acquaintances in the state leg and they say everything the GOP caucus does is by the lobbyists and for the lobbyists. The moron GOP legislators wouldn’t know how to write a bill if their lives depended on it. The cruelty is the sales pitch to the morons that vote for them. It’s easier to deliver on that than actually governing.
rikyrah
Greg Sargent (@GregTSargent) posted at 8:28 AM on Mon, Dec 09, 2024:
It’s not enough to call Trump’s nominees “loyalists.” Many voters will hear this and say, “so what?” Media accounts need to be clearer on what this really means: Trump picking people who will put him above the law.
On the pod, @brianbeutler and I discuss:
https://t.co/nYul96Kdek
(https://x.com/GregTSargent/status/1866127847967895752?t=0SxE7_ZvxooQa4vJWhLnXQ&s=03)
UncleEbeneezer
Re: Bouie’s list of voter reasons why they voted for Trump:
matt
When plutocrats talk about the evil of government, they really mean that the people having power is evil. They want to drown the people’s power in a bathtub.
rikyrah
Greg Sargent (@GregTSargent) posted at 5:14 AM on Tue, Dec 10, 2024:
New pod: Republicans quietly fear Marjorie Taylor Greene’s collaboration w/Elon Musk on massive spending cuts could become a problem, Politico reports. We talked to tech writer Gil Duran about right wing “techbro” leadership and why MTG will make it worse:
https://t.co/lr8UqsWdaq
(https://x.com/GregTSargent/status/1866441414105878710?t=gKnMVhZpFTRV-y1WxWO80Q&s=03)
rikyrah
Longtime Black Man Here (@groove_sdc) posted at 2:47 AM on Sun, Dec 08, 2024:
So right-wing influencers are spreading the lie that #BlackLivesMatter has threatened “riots.”
Look for this to be a justification for the Trump administration to crack down on protests and protester.
And potentially send military forces into majority Black cities.
(https://x.com/groove_sdc/status/1865679651047198961?t=dbCSUvike1mhciBvv1Y3iQ&s=03)
gene108
Needing the ACA for health insurance the last several years, rather than have employer sponsored health insurance, has made me realize how very few people actually have to deal with social safety net programs.
Cutting government services has very little direct impact on most people’s lives. This is why running on defunding government works so well.
opiejeanne
@Jobeth: That assertion always makes me nuts. The government isn’t supposed to make a profit, unlike a business.
Citizen Alan
@NaijaGal:
Every day I grow more certain that Trump is the literal Antichrist and that millions of Evangelicals took the Mark of the Beast in the form of a red MAGA hat.
rikyrah
Jim Sciutto (@jimsciutto) posted at 4:49 PM on Mon, Dec 09, 2024:
Breaking: Rupert Murdoch cannot amend his family trust to put the power of his media companies in the hands of his chosen successor Lachlan Murdoch, a Nevada commissioner has ruled. The probate commissioner’s 96-page opinion eviscerated Rupert and Lachlan Murdoch, according to a
(https://x.com/jimsciutto/status/1866253794889355677?t=54zlmENjnUUegPRSamWqpA&s=03)
rikyrah
Mehdi Hasan (@mehdirhasan) posted at 0:22 PM on Mon, Dec 09, 2024:
Imagine, just imagine, if Jordan Neely had been white and Daniel Penny was black
Imagine what some of the folks defending Penny today would be saying.
Just imagine.
(https://x.com/mehdirhasan/status/1866186562230186152?t=HePi9vFZt0X0vAhL7HQgbg&s=03)
Steve LaBonne
@UncleEbeneezer: My theory all along has been that this fuck you mood- shared by pretty much every developed country- is an almost inevitable result of galloping inequality. People feel, accurately, that there is no longer reason to believe that they will be better off in the future than now, but- partly due to the confusion that results from the massive propaganda barrage the billionaires can buy- they are not able to understand why, or what to do about it. My prognosis is not optimistic.
Quiltingfool
I’m probably very wrong on this, but here goes: Deep down, Trump/Republican voters want all the white supremacy and misogyny and they aren’t going to tell you that. I think some of them (at least the people I live among) don’t believe they are racist or anti-women, but it is there and I think its subconscious.
Switching up, I think many Trump voters know he is a hateful, vengeful shit who can’t pour piss out of a boot with instructions. They give themselves permission to vote for that thug and not worry about the harm because The Democrats And The Institutions Will Protect Us. We’ll Be Okay!
Not sure that’s going to happen this time. There will be harm, in degrees (from meh to terrifying) for many people. Thing is, we are so hoping that the horrible outcomes will swing the pendulum our way (so once again Dems get to be the clean up crew) but I live in Missouri and the Republicans here have been really shitty and people just keep voting for shit. It seems like nothing gets through to them.
Honestly, we need to try more effective ways of communicating to voters, but we can’t just assume that the awakening will happen fast, if at all.
Ohio Mom
@NaijaGal: Oh yeah, I saw that focus group’s thoughts on the NYT op-ed page. It’s eternally Opposite Day for these people.
Most of them are for reproductive rights — which Trump is whittling away, between appointing the Justices who gave us Dobbs, and who knows what is next.
They remember the economy booming under Trump, and who doesn’t like booming economy? Except that was Obama’s economy, which Trump skated on until Covid. One of the respondents mentioned how well her retirement account is doing, how can she give Trump credit for that, he was gone for the last four years?
They all hope for manufacturing to come back to the U.S. though Biden’s efforts in that direction totally escaped them.
Most of what this focus group says is perfectly acceptable (with the exception of complaining about immigrants). It’s how completely misinformed they are that brings on total despair.
In the words of one of them, “Mainstream media is another problem with our country. They tell us a lot of things that aren’t true.”
comrade scotts agenda of rage
@Another Scott:
I don’t think anybody here would disagree with that characterization. But what happens when that flies in the face of observable reality vis a vis voter turnout?
Again, anecdotal (but in general seen in many major metro areas nationwide) but Denver (the city) does all of what you just said, there’s no magic bullet approach, ie., the City makes it moronically easy to vote (and informative), there’s plenty of groups pitching messages exactly as you outline. Hell, we even had this one guy who formed a PAC to put up billboards that slammed Hair Furor.
And yet, our city voter turnout *declined* 9% from 2020. That resulted in a *red* shift of a hair over 5%:
https://coloradonewsline.com/2024/11/14/lower-turnout-uneven-red-wave-colorado/
Everybody has a hot take on what that was, both here and in places like NYC, but in reality, we don’t really know.
But it underscores how doing everything you describe clearly wasn’t enough this time around.
Suzanne
@Steve LaBonne:
I remember reading, decades ago, that Gen X would be the first generation in American history that would not do as well as the previous generation (life expectancy, wealth, etc.). If that is true, then that’s essentially the end of the American Dream. That’s a huge psychological toll, IMO.
ETA: I know I have been less optimistic than many here about some aspects of national conditions. In large part, that’s because I don’t see a good future for my kids, despite working my ass off.
Old Man Shadow
@kirbster: That won’t let them skim money out of the programs though.
More likely, Social Security turns into personal investment accounts with ridiculous brokerage fees. Still hurts the poor, but enriches Republicans and their donors.
Medicare and the VA gets privatized and seniors and vets get fucked.
Then they raise the retirement age to 70 or 72 just to fuck people over a bit more.
Citizen Alan
I genuinely think a lot of Trump voters sincerely believe that it’s not inherently racist to believe that minorities and women are inferior to white men because “the truth ain’t racism.” Or as Chris Rock put it: In America, the definition of a racist is “someone who personally shot Medger Evers.”
comrade scotts agenda of rage
@UncleEbeneezer:
Which is basically mistermix’s “Let’s drive the car into a ditch” theory of current, national electoral politics.
Suzanne
@Quiltingfool:
Agreed.
Sexism and racism frame our opinions about what is normal, about what is a good life, about what we can expect from one another. I think this is far more insidious and far-reaching than simple hatred.
PhaedrusOnBass
I did some consulting work for two Southern state governments several years ago. I learned that these agencies are staffed with competent, caring people who are given duct tape and baling wire to do their jobs. My heart went out to them.
This attitude is real and pervasive. Unfortunately, it seems it will take a complete meltdown to correct it.
TBone
@Steve LaBonne: agree
comrade scotts agenda of rage
@Steve LaBonne:
Brought to you (and us and the world) by 40+ years of…Reaganomics. Mission accomplished! Trickle down doesn’t work in all it’s manifestations, everybody knew that 40 years ago, and yet, it’s now so baked into both sides, it’s impossible to see any way out. Biden’s bills were relatively tiny first steps and still filled with a lot of neoliberal execution crap, but we need decades more of a push partially along those lines if we expect to see any change.
Kristine
@NaijaGal: I responded to the “good businessman” part. That always kills me.
Ksmiami
@hrprogressive: because democrats haven’t yelled and flooded the zone about it.
DFH
@LivinginExile:
Hey neighbor, Knox County here. The big town, G’burg, has been overrun by Maga types on city council, the old conservative mayor is running again, and some of the schools in little towns have been heavily infected by that breed.
Farms here display those “100% American, 0% Socialist” signs, still. Of course none have stood on their principles and forsaken farm subsidies.
Steve LaBonne
@Suzanne: Which is why redefining racism such that anything short of wearing a white hood isn’t racism is such an insidiously effective tactic. There is enough energy in white people’s furious “don’t call me a racist!” reflex to power a large city for a month.
Kristine
@Jobeth:
Or, say, your health insurance company?
Quiltingfool
@Citizen Alan: You said it so much better than me! Yes, they do think minorities and women are less than, but they aren’t going to say it out loud. They might get some side eye for that. Think about how Trump voters are butt-hurt because other people are accusing them of being racist or misogynistic. If you really are racist or misogynistic, why not shout it proudly? Why not fully own it? There are shits on the internet making bank for their toxic views, so why hide your beliefs?
Because only a few can make money being shitty people. Doesn’t work that way for everyone.
Ksmiami
@Old Man Shadow: there’s a big part of me that says if tradesmen who do physical labor voted to keep working and shorten their lives, that’s on them.
Ksmiami
@Suzanne: no offense but Pennsylvania is one of the least optimistic places to live…
Ruckus
I believe that government works as good as it can depending on it’s size and number of people that benefit from any program, be it police/fire, trash collection, whatthehellever.
Sure we have politics in every square inch of the country. But in small towns/cities, and I’ve lived in 3 states, one on each coast and one in the middle and traveled for work in every state but Hawaii and Alaska, politics seems to be able to have much more affect over ever aspect of government. In big cities/counties, more people means a much louder population, whereas in small towns it is far quieter and fewer people in the way of whatever politicians want to get paid to do and less tax money to do as much. IOW more citizens means the politics bends towards the people, and in smaller populations towards the leaders. Smaller can be a quieter place to live, bigger has more possibilities. And of course it’s changed somewhat with the advent of computers and more than one type of communication – like what we are doing here.
For me, I like bigger better than smaller. I find that the politics has to be more about the people and less about the bank accounts of the leaders.
UncleEbeneezer
@rikyrah: Fuck Mehdi Hasan. He’ll be blaming (((Zionists))) in the next sentence.
Steve LaBonne
@comrade scotts agenda of rage: Upper middle class types actively hated the fact that the primary beneficiaries of Biden’s policies were people near the bottom of the income scale.
Kay
We met with a candidate for sec of state in OH. Impressive person – grew up in rural IN, Eli Lilly awards two full rides to Indiana high school students every year, he got one of them and went to Notre Dame, then on to med school – he’s a physician.
He was inspired to run by the sleazy, corrupt actions of the Ohio Republican Party – this last cycle they changed ballot language to make it deliberately deceptive, thereby keeping their hyper gerrymandered state leg seats so they can continue to steal from this state. Anyhow – mid thirties, so young(ish). Very inspiring. I hope like hell he can do something but he’s smart and he didn’t need us to tell him what a long shot it is – he’s aware. Admirable. I thought it was hopeful.
dww44
@Quiltingfool: I cannot agree more.
In my world, there is MSNBC on the Cox Cable listings and then there are Fox News, Fox News Business, Fox News Weather, News Nation (or whatever that news on offer from Chicago’s Channel 9 is) Sinclair owned local affiliates for ABC and Fox (the broadcast channel). To add insult to injury they just moved Newsmax to be adjacent to MSNBC. Then NBC, CBS, and ABC represent the MSM and they are vying for access to Trump. Of the 3 networks, I’d have to say that ABC is less afraid of Trump than the other 2. Then there is CNBC, not exactly a force for editorial objectivity.
suzanne
@Ksmiami: My cost of living is lower here, so I can invest more in my kids. Mr. Suzanne and I would prefer to live where either of us grew up, but we can’t afford it.
Geminid
Virginia got some hard experience with privatization under Governor Bb McDonnell (2010-2014(, when his Transportation Secretary signed two privatization deals.
One was for a projected highway that would parallel U.S. 460 for 70 miles, from Peterburg to Suffolk. The idea was to facilitate tolled truck traffic from I-85 to Virginia Beach, as well as beach-bound crowds in the summertime. U.S. 460 is a route often used by travelers to North Carolina’s Outer Banks.
The project was unsound environmentally and economically unfeaseble. So it was dropped, leaving Virginia taxpayers on the hook for close to $200 million in costs and fees due to the project “developer.”
The second contract was for a second bridge-tunnel next to the Hampton Roads Bridge Tunnel. That one was never started but if and when it is, the devloper will be entitled to $10s of millions in fees even if they are cut out of deal.
Here it was unfortunate that Virginia has a one term limit for its governors. Had McDonnell been able to run again in 2013 he would have been assailed for these ripoffs. The ads would have written themselves: “Highway Robbery!” Instead these abuses of privatization never received the notoriety they merited.
UncleEbeneezer
@comrade scotts agenda of rage: The problem is:
1.) No Black/Woman/Gay etc., candidate would ever be allowed to take this approach
2.) The White Men who are allowed to take this approach (cough, cough Bernie) usually don’t have all the other stuff that the Dem Base wants, and that base has a lot of good reason to be cautious about White candidates who take such an approach.
Biden, arguably, threaded this needle in 2020 by being the most Fuck Trump! in the Primary while also having a great track-record with our base. Kamala couldn’t really get away with that approach. Bernie had some success being all Fuck Billionaires (and Dems). The other big problem is that in the Dem Primary a significant chunk of our voters don’t want “Fuck You” they want “Fuck Dems/The Establishment” which won’t win the Primary.
oldgold
One reason the scam works is that virtually no one has even a basic understanding of the federal income tax system. And, who can blame them given the convoluted mess that it is.
Just yesterday, someone told me he was happy Trump was going to end the tax on Social Security. I had to tell him that he did not pay tax on his Social Security.
NaijaGal
@Suzanne: Hmm – I seem to recall the traditional media having a snit fit because Democrats invited influencers to the Democratic Convention and gave them the kind of access that the traditional media didn’t get. Both parties focused on non-traditional media outlets. That strategy worked out well for one party, the one that also benefits from a right wing tilted media ecosystem mostly owned by corporations and billionaires.
Can Democrats build their own news media empire and also support independent media outlets like Pro Publica, etc.? Should that be part of their job, since democracy absolutely depends on truthful information getting to voters? Who will pay for it? I’ve convinced myself that this is key but I don’t pretend to know what to do besides giving monthly to Pro Publica, the Philadelphia Inquirer, etc. I’d give more to an effort like this.
NaijaGal
@WaterGirl: Good to see you! I’m grateful to mistermix and Anne Laurie for keeping things going but I’d missed you and Betty Cracker and John (I’m not able to visit every day, so I may have missed your posts).
tobie
I don’t think much about taxes because it’s taken out of my paycheck automatically. I’d wager that there are two groups of people who do think about tax all the time: those who have substantial investment income and those who have a small business with no real employees, only occasional help paid under the table. Frankly both groups piss me off with their chronic complaints about taxes and I’d be grateful to any Dem who would concede that we should make sure that not only the rich but also small biz pay their fair share. I’m tired of subsidizing rightwingers in pickup trucks who don’t report their income.
dm
Here’s a post that’s been going around mastodon and bluesky that puts the election of Ronald Reagan at the inflection point in many measures of quality of life:
https://bsky.brid.gy/r/https://bsky.app/profile/did:plc:jpvse5d5p5hdcu3rouohlbpx/post/3lcqfbkfqoc2u
NaijaGal
@Kristine: Me too! Just ignores his bankruptcies and total incompetence.
comrade scotts agenda of rage
@dm:
Thank you for this. Another handy reference going forward.
Ruckus
@NaijaGal:
They don’t live in an alternate news reality.
They live on planet Dumbass, or on planet We Have No Clue. (Both are remarkably the same, in most every way)
Nothing you say or imply is going to be believed, because you aren’t one of them. Thankfully.
I believe that they want to live in an alternate reality, one that is simple with easily defined rules and where everyone is the same. Speak the same words/dialect, same limited subjects, same, same, same. They can understand this but nothing beyond this. And not because they can’t do more, because they don’t want to. They are simple versions of people that lived in east outer nowhere. A few miles from the town of Simpleview.
IOW their reality is completely freaking weird. And nothing like actual reality, especially of a reality that is dramatically more populated than the one that existed 75 or more years ago.
TKH
Betty,
what kind of contamination are you concerned about with your eater, chemical or bacterial? If it’s bacterial, you could get yourself a Sawyer filter for about $ 40, good for some 100,000 gal. I use it while hiking to filter some real foul water. Runs at about 100 mL/min and if you backflush it occasionally, it will do so for a long time. The filter comes with the appropriate hardware.
Ruckus
@Jeffro:
People learn when they want to, not when it is necessary.
People learn when it suits them, not when it helps them.
It is rather difficult to learn when your head is trying it’s damndest to stuff it’s self up its exit orifice.
Old School
@oldgold:
The person you were talking to may not have to pay tax on his Social Security, but some people pay some tax. The income threshold really needs to be increased.
Ohio Mom
@dm: Oh thank you for the graphs. I have my own collection and this will be a nice addition. I already have the life expectancy graph but the others are new to me.
I always say there is a coffeetable book waiting to be compiled from these graphs.
Betty Cracker
@HinTN: Great advice — thank you!
@Betsy: Thanks so much; will keep that in mind!
@TKH: Good to know, so thanks!
Another Scott
@comrade scotts agenda of rage: Thanks for the info. It does look like Colorado does a lot of things I advocate.
This earlier story has a graph of voter turnout going back to 2000. Turnout was increasing up until 2016 when it dropped quite a bit. 2020 was roughly the same as 2016, 2024 was lower (but preliminary).
Figuring out why it was lower in 2016 might be instructive. And it might be easier looking back that far rather than trying to figure out what happened 5 weeks ago.
One common factor is DJT. Maybe turnout drops when he’s a factor. :-/
Agreed that doing all the sensible things isn’t enough, but I don’t see the alternative. JFK had a media machine running overtime (Camelot and Jackie and all that) and he still just barely won (and too many RWNJs hated him also too), so a great media machine is no panacea either.
It’s a slog. Fighting for every gettable vote seems to be about all we can do. But that’s just my truthiness take.
Thanks.
Best wishes,
Scott.
Ruckus
@different-church-lady:
If you go to the Social Security website and log in, you can call up your earnings record from the first dollar till the current minute. By year. This is what determines what you get per month in SS payments. And of course, towards the end of any year you can see what you will get per month over the next year.
Miss Bianca
@UncleEbeneezer: yeah, you know what? I think he’s onto something here.
Ruckus
@Steve LaBonne:
My medications are delivered by mail from the VA. I get them within 2-3 days after mailing. Now I live in Los Angeles county and there are nearly 4 million people living here so the mail still works reasonably well. I can imagine that in a similar sized area with a smaller population, mail delivery might suffer, if for no other reason than the volume to be delivered could be enough smaller that any delivery person is going to cover a lot more territory. Because if they didn’t the cost of their mail would have to go up, which means all mail costs would go up. Now the other side of this is that with population growth there is going to be more mail and it’s going to cost more. If we could cut out crap mail, like all the stuff companies trying to sell me crap that I will never buy are sending me, mail might just be a tad less costly, because they are getting bulk mail rates. If we got rid of all the crap the system could quite possibly work better. But then I’d never know about all the crap that I’m never going to buy.
Ruckus
@rikyrah:
@rikyrah:
ALL OF THIS.
In my lifetime things have gotten better. Not much, but better. I have zero idea why people think shitforbrains was or will be any reasonable kind of president. He’s not a reasonable human being so how is he going to do, say, be a reasonable president? He wasn’t last time, does anyone think this time will be better?
I’m going with far, far, far worse.
Ruckus
@Quiltingfool:
Something we can do, maybe not all of us but possibly enough of us, write/call your congress members, senators, and representatives. Now if you have democratic congress members that may not be necessary, but it can’t hurt. And if you have republican representation letting them know that you are against something and why, they may see that they are going to lose.
IF, and it is a huge IF, you think you can convince ANY of your conservative neighbors that what shitforbrains is trying to do will absolutely screw them as much as every one else, including any actual congress people that may not be 1000% sold on his crapola, maybe, possibly, we may be able to get enough support to screw him right into the ground.
Because if he has enough support this country will not survive his ego and stupidity. And neither will many of the citizens, no matter their political side.
I get my health care from the VA. If he screws all the vets that use/depend on the VA it will not be pretty, but it will, quite possibly too late for any kind of repair to a lot of lives. Like mine.
I do not really know what to do but I think we have to really talk about this and let our congress folks know that if they allow him to screw all of us, it is likely that there will be a lot of collateral damage to many parts of the US economy and population. And that is without anyone not involved in law making doing anything wrong, out of line, illegal or whatever. Call your congress critters and let them know, especially if you live in less than liberal states or areas. I am contacting mine this week, even though I doubt I need to, but any contact that is large enough may actually have an effect. And remember a lot of the crap that shitforbrains and his supporters in government want or are at least willing to do will screw a hell of a lot of people on all sides of the political spectrum.
overland
Betty– in regard to your fun with water well. The well is likely to be bacteria contaminated such to fail initial fecal coliform testing-flood waters would have entered the well casing. Unless you want to do lots of testing, probably best to conduct shock treatment on the well , flush and coliform test when chlorine free. The attached gives a guide to that:
https://extension.uga.edu/publications/detail.html?number=C858-4&title=disinfecting-your-well-water-shock-chlorination
A google search for “water well shock treatment” will give additional/alternate info if desired.
Good luck.