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You are here: Home / Open Threads / Why Elon Opposes Car Crash Reporting

Why Elon Opposes Car Crash Reporting

by | 79 Comments

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This honestly surprised me:

Tesla’s vehicles have the highest fatal accident rate among all car brands in America, according to a recent iSeeCars study that analyzed data from the U.S. Fatality Analysis Reporting System (FARS).

The study was conducted on model year 2018–2022 vehicles, and focused on crashes between 2017 and 2022 that resulted in occupant fatalities. Tesla vehicles have a fatal crash rate of 5.6 per billion miles driven, according to the study; Kia is second with a rate of 5.5, and Buick rounds out the top three with a 4.8 rate. The average fatal crash rate for all cars in the United States is 2.8 per billion vehicle miles driven.

The study also breaks down some of the data for individual models. The Tesla Model S has a rate more than double than average, at 5.8 per billion vehicle miles driven; meanwhile, the Tesla Model Y — the best-selling vehicle in the world has a fatal crash rate of 10.6, nearly four times the average. It ranked as the sixth worst vehicle overall. (The Hyundai Venue took the top spot overall, with a fatal crash rate of 13.9.)

There are commenters here (like Martin) who have a lot more experience with Elon and his various enterprises, so this piece (from November 15) is probably common knowledge to some of you.  But I would have thought that the fatal accident rate for Teslas would be not as good as you’d think, but not #1 with a bullet, even outpacing Kia.  Also, I thought this was a very carefully worded way to say Tesla drivers are careless assholes:

“The models on this list likely reflect a combination of driver behavior and driving conditions, leading to increased crashes and fatalities,” iSeeCars executive analyst Karl Brauer said in the report. “A focused, alert driver, traveling at a legal or prudent speed, without being under the influence of drugs or alcohol, is the most likely to arrive safely regardless of the vehicle they’re driving.”

Here’s the story on Elon’s desire to do away with car crash reporting requirements.  Oh, and this:

Why Elon Opposes Car Crash Reporting

Reader Interactions

79Comments

  3. 3.

    different-church-lady

    When you tell people your product means they don’t have to pay attention to what they’re doing with it, how is this a surprise?

  4. 4.

    Baud

     “A focused, alert driver, traveling at a legal or prudent speed, without being under the influence of drugs or alcohol, is the most likely to arrive safely regardless of the vehicle they’re driving not buy a Tesla.”

  5. 5.

    different-church-lady

    @Baud:

    “A focused, alert driver, traveling at a legal or prudent speed, without being under the influence of drugs or alcohol, is the most likely to arrive safely regardless of the vehicle they’re driving not buy a Tesla. about as common as a unicorn.

  6. 6.

    Harrison Wesley

    I’ve read that Teslas can be very difficult to get out of after an accident. And I wonder how many people try to let the cars drive themselves.

  13. 13.

    Mr. Bemused Senior

    As usual it’s difficult to separate signal from noise in [ETA especially public discussion of]  a statistical analysis.  [From the linked article] Tesla’s contention that their higher capability of automated driving assistance skews the data has at least a grain of truth.  The overall fatality statistics though do suggest a real problem.  Some combination of their drivers’ personalities and the technology seems to me likely to be the explanation.

  14. 14.

    Starfish (she/her)

    @Harrison Wesley: We had one of those on the local subreddit. Someone was looking for a defense attorney because they had been drinking and let the Tesla drive them home instead of sleeping it off in their cold car. The commenters were not on their side.

    We seem to be in a wave of folks buying CyberTrucks for their undergrad-aged kids. That is not going well.

  15. 15.

    Chetan Murthy

    @Harrison Wesley: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PbRBbIGnv4

    There’s no way I’d buy one of these deathtraps.  What if I’m driving with kids in the back, and in the accident I can’t get back there to release the back door for them?  What  if a guest doesn’t know how to do it, and I’m incapacitated?  Insanity.  Just insanity.  And this isn’t the only idiocy in that damn car.

  16. 16.

    Dorothy A. Winsor

    I just got back from the hospital where Mr DAW was admitted after shortness of breath and chest pains in the night. He’s feeling much better.  Today, he’s on bed rest. They’ll do an angiogram tomorrow morning.

  18. 18.

    hells littlest angel

    Heh heh, I am a big-brain, just like Elon Musk. Now to set this thing to self-drive and get a little shut-eye … Huh? Aaaiiieeee!!!

  19. 19.

    Chetan Murthy

    @@mistermix.bsky.social: That’s true, but the fact that nobody outside the car was able to break in to rescue her seems damning, even if we assume that she was incapacitated to the point where she should be unable to escape (which again seems hard-to-believe: normal car door latches aren’t hard to operate).

  21. 21.

    different-church-lady

    @Starfish (she/her):

    EVIDENCE OF BAD JUDGEMENT #1: Getting shit-faced

    EVIDENCE OF BAD JUDGEMENT #2: Trying to solve it by letting the Tesla make the decisions.

    EVIDENCE OF BAD JUDGEMENT #3: Trying to solve #1 and #2 by using Reddit to find legal help.

  23. 23.

    Kay

    Elon is a fraud and a liar. He’s propped up by ridiculous tech bros and now that he’s become a fascist we’re all stuck with this douchebag.
    How gullible do you have to be to have believed him when he said his crap car would retain resale value? As gullible as all the idiot rental car fleets who are stuck with tens of thousands of cars no one wants.

    Theres a new term I’m seeing – tech bro authoritarians. You’re going to be seeing that a lot as these spoiled, overhyped frauds control more and more of our lives. I cannot WAIT for the backlash.

  25. 25.

    A Ghost to Most

    As an avid off-road junkie, the continuing failures of the Clustertruck bring no end of joy to those who have real off-road vehicles.

  26. 26.

    different-church-lady

    @Kay:

    I cannot WAIT for the backlash.

    NARRATOR: “There was no… oh fuck it, I can’t do this anymore…

  29. 29.

    Kay

    I know space is cool but could people have found a better person to worship? He’s a psychopath who wants to control the whole country. Please use some discretion before foisting these evil people on the masses. Because some percentage of the gullible fell for this clown dies not mean we all should have to suffer.

  30. 30.

    FelonyGovt

    Anecdotally, there are lots of Teslas around here and I’ve learned to give them a wide berth and expect aggressive and unpredictable behavior from their drivers.

  32. 32.

    comrade scotts agenda of rage

    @A Ghost to Most:

    As an avid off-road junkie, the continuing failures of the Clustertruck bring no end of joy to those who have real off-road vehicles.

    Heh heh, same here.  My old friend and I have done a crapton of 4-wheeling in CO dating back 40+ years.  He actually wanted a Cybertruck and got endless shit from his circle of friends.  Once he saw what one was gonna cost, he lost (some) interest (his spousal unit would never let him blow that kind of money on a car and for once, the collective friend base agrees with her).

    And yet, he also acknowledges that his not-specifically-offroad-outfitted Chevy Colorado (or my Tacoma) easily outdo the Wankpanzer in offroad capability.

    Last year we ran into a guy in a Rivian getting ready to 4-wheel up to the Mary Murphy Mine and then possibly up to the Pomroy Lakes.  We could get to the Mine in his Colorado and about halfway up the rugged part of the Pomroy Lakes trail before we had to stop.  You simply needed the right kind of Jeep or UTV to go any further.  We chuckled at the thought of somebody taking a $100K vehicle up there and get stuck.

  34. 34.

    @mistermix.bsky.social

    @Chetan Murthy:

    That’s true, but the fact that nobody outside the car was able to break in to rescue her seems damning, even if we assume that she was incapacitated to the point where she should be unable to escape (which again seems hard-to-believe: normal car door latches aren’t hard to operate).

    Agree with this, too.  Drunk driver + poorly designed auto = preventable death.

  38. 38.

    linnen

    “If you design something to be idiot proof, the universe will design a better idiot.”

    Of course the more Elon Musk was involved in the company (and the less the higher-ups were able to distract him from the design) the less idiot-proofing and more idiocy was in the design of the vehicles.

  39. 39.

    HinTN

    @trollhattan:

    Engineers love them.

    I suppose so. I have an engineer, as am I, friend who owns one. I rode in it once and had to ask how to open the frigging passenger door from the inside. I also don’t like that it’s controlled from that center panel, which is designed to take your eyes off the road. Yes, I like to drive!

  40. 40.

    linnen

    @Mr. Bemused Senior:

    Telsa says their “automated driver assistance systems” increase the safety of the driver and passengers.

    Except in cases of accidents when the driver is impaired or even when the driver is not impaired.  Then all the fault lays with the driver not the car or the company.

  41. 41.

    trollhattan

    @linnen:

    Tesla management insists they MUST have that fat, fat bonus for Elmo that the courts are holding up, in order to keep him focused on the company and not wandering off to other things.

    To which I can only say, “For business professionals you have nevertheless managed to get this completely, dramatically, tragically backwards.”

    “Hey Elmo, shiny bug!”
    “Where? Where?”

  42. 42.

    Splitting Image

    @different-church-lady:

    NARRATOR: “There was no… oh fuck it, I can’t do this anymore…

    We’re still a month away from the FO stage. Even if the snooze media is pretending that he is president already, the orange thing can still only rant about Biden and Harris and talk about what he is going to do.

    January is when we will start finding out how much you have to hurt a Republican personally for them to turn on their Dear Leader.

  43. 43.

    Mr. Bemused Senior

    @HinTN: my brother owns one and I have ridden in several. The lack of a useful sun visor is particularly galling.[ETA perhaps they will solve this by offering a MAGA hat accessory ]/s

  44. 44.

    rationalman

    BaudDecember 15, 2024 at 12:09 pmThat’s what happened to Mitch McConnell’s sister in law.

    @mistermix.bsky.socialDecember 15, 2024 at 12:14 pmHer BAC was .223 (.08 is the limit in Texas).https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/angela-chao-mcconnells-sister-law-was-was-three-legal-limit-fatal-acci-rcna144419

    ————————

    How many of her friends (supposed rescuer where also drunk)?
    The incidents below where laminated glass in door is helpful is much more common then driving into lake.
    The door/side window glass on Tesla Model S/X like many newer cars, the glass is laminated glass so harder to break into. Car makers us laminated to keep passengers and/or head/arms inside during crashes (especially rollovers) and also the glass is needed to support deployment of side airbags.
    If you or spouse, daughter, child are in the vehicle or robo-taxi, a rock/brick/baseball-bat/knife wielding road-rager/thief will have trouble getting to them. Hopefully enough time to use cell phone to call for help & rescuers to arrive.

    ———————-

    Does Mercedes have laminated windows?They have dual laminated glass in every single one, which is a feature borrowed from the S-Class.20

    Sept 2023

    Hendrick Automotive Group

    https://www.hendrickcars.com › blog

    ———————-

    Lexus 2nd gen NX (450h+) has dual pane laminated glass for front windows (AGC Lamisafe)

    https://www.clublexus.com/forums/hybrid-technology/979471-2nd-gen-nx-450h-has-dual-pane-laminated-glass-for-front-windows-agc-lamisafe.html

    ————————
    List of Models with Laminated Non-windshield OEM Glazing

    AAA

    Last updated : Year 2019
    https://www.aaa.com/AAA/common/AAR/files/Laminated-Glass-Vehicle-List.pdf
    * many models of Acura, Audi, BMW, Mercedes, Lexus, Cadillac, Buick, Chevrolet, Ford, GMC, Jeep, Hyundai, Kia, Nissan, VW, Volvo, etc

    ————————​
    ​
    ​

  45. 45.

    oldster

    The number of visits to Twitter is dropping simply because Musk has no incentive to pay for his own bots, now that he shoe-horned trump into office.

    We bought a Hyundai Ioniq 5 this summer, and so far we love it. It’s a full electric car, fun to drive, and we have not had range issues. For long trips, you stop where there’s a fast-charger (your app tells you where to find them), you take a 20-minute rest, and then you are good to go again.

    In our experience, the electric car is better than the gas cars we’ve been driving since 1960-whatever, in every respect. And if Musk is not involved with them, then they are better for that reason, too.

  46. 46.

    trollhattan

    @Mr. Bemused Senior:

    My work parking lot is stuffed with them and the place is largely staffed by engineers. It seems the only other choice is fullsize pickups, which comprise the other notable lot cohort.

    I find them as engaging as any car designed and built by a refrigerator company. But with our general air quality, any EV is an incremental improvement so I’ll remain brand agnostic.

  51. 51.

    Lobo

    My go to comment on people like Musk:

    The eight most terrifying words in the English language, “I’m a billionaire and I’m here to help.”

  52. 52.

    Miss Bianca

    @FelonyGovt: I know some actual nice people who own a Tesla or two (father/son duo), and I always have to bite my tongue whenever I see them in it.

    TBF, I think they bought theirs before even the normies were starting to seethe bloom coming off the Musk rose…

  54. 54.

    Another Scott

    @Mr. Bemused Senior:

    Melon: Humans are bad drivers, therefore we need cars and trucks with Autopilots and FSD and Driverless Taxis!

    Meanwhile: Tesla’s contention that their higher capability of automated driving assistance skews the data…

    Melon: No, not like that!! Stop collecting that data!!1

    :-/

    Best wishes,
    Scott.

  55. 55.

    gene108

    @Kay:

    Theres a new term I’m seeing – tech bro authoritarians. You’re going to be seeing that a lot as these spoiled, overhyped frauds control more and more of our lives. I cannot WAIT for the backlash.

    The “backlash” will be propaganda against some out group.

    Most people do not understand what Silicon Valley billionaires want, do, and frankly do not care. A lot of people admire them because they’re rich and that must make them “smart” or “good”.

    It won’t be hard for the people that control social media to point anger against someone else.

  56. 56.

    different-church-lady

    @gene108: Plus they give us cool toys!

    Well, they don’t exactly give them to us. I mean, they charge us for them. Charge us a lot, in fact… But, you know, TOYS!

  57. 57.

    Another Scott

    @HinTN: Door handles cost money.

    HTH!

    :-/

    My best friend in high school had a 1970 Ford Mustang 428 Cobra Jet.  I read a story that Ford had a slightly modified Holly carburetor on it (used a slightly different secondary) that saved Ford $0.28 or something on each one.  It added up!  And it made no actual functional difference to the engine performance in 90+% of cases, so it was a reasonable change.

    Melon takes that normal economizing and optimizing and extends it to critical safety features and it, predictably, gets people killed.  And he apparently doesn’t care.  And his customers apparently are fine with it too.

    We’ve been here before with Ford Pinto gas tanks.

    Grr…

    Safety oversight is essential.  It’s never something that industry will willingly value on its own.

    Best wishes,
    Scott.

  58. 58.

    Mr. Bemused Senior

    @gene108: “if you’re so smart why ain’t you rich” is a very old saying.  My favorite rejoinder is, “if you want to know what God thinks of money look at the people He gives it to.”

  63. 63.

    different-church-lady

    And another thing: where the hell is Ralph Nader when you actually fuckin’ need him?

  65. 65.

    artem1s

    @Baud: ​ 
    “A focused, alert driver, traveling at a legal or prudent speed, without being under the influence of drugs or alcohol, is the most likely to arrive safely regardless of the vehicle because they’re staying as far as possible away from any Tesla owners they see on the road.”

  70. 70.

    Barney

    Sorry to burst the bubble, but “twitter.com” traffic is declining because “twitter.com” is the old name, and they’ve done everything they can to get people to use Musk’s childhood imaginary friend name of “x.com”.

    twitter.com vs x.com Traffic Comparison | Similarweb

    (I can remember Jerry Coyne and his acolytes exulting over the drop in traffic at “huffingtonpost.com”, when they had changed the main name to “huffpost.com”, but hadn’t thought of that.  Even though Coyne always called it “Huff Post” himself.)

  71. 71.

    Bill Arnold

    @Splitting Image:

    Even if the snooze media is pretending that he is president already

    It’s petty, but I am looking forward to using “president Biden” when talking about Biden after Trump is officially POTUS.
    The right wing media did this regularly, calling Mr. Trump “President Trump” when Biden was president. Often, the MSM went along. (When called on it, they’d say it was an honorific. While not using “President” when referring to President Biden.)
    Also, Mr. Trump is not constitutionally eligible to be POTUS according to the text of the (14th A of the) US constitution[1]; insurrection is disqualifying, just as much as being under 35YO, or not being a natural born citizen, or being disqualified after conviction for an impeachment.
    [1] SCOTUS can have no respectable opinion on the matter, IMO, after Sandra Day O’Connor gave the presidency to GW Bush because she wanted to retire but only if a Republican was POTUS.

  72. 72.

    tam1MI

    @Barney:Sorry to burst the bubble, but “twitter.com” traffic is declining because “twitter.com” is the old name, and they’ve done everything they can to get people to use Musk’s childhood imaginary friend name of “x.com”.

    twitter.com vs x.com Traffic Comparison | Similarweb

    Your link shows that x.com is declining in traffic numbers as well.  Which strikes me as a bit odd because shouldn’t their traffic be increasing as people switch from the old name to the new one?

  73. 73.

    Bill Arnold

    @Barney:
    For the few places I still occasionally check on twitter/X (down by a factor of 10, myself) engagement numbers are down, visibly. Replies, likes, views are all down. Maybe 50 percent.
    The USA people remaining in Musk’s reactionary echo chamber are lonely; many/most of the liberals have left and they can’t abuse them any more.
    Haven’t dug into the real numbers; they are probably down though.

  74. 74.

    Splitting Image

    @Bill Arnold:

    It’s petty, but I am looking forward to using “president Biden” when talking about Biden after Drumpf is officially POTUS.

    I intend to keep referring to the piece of shit as “Former President Trump”. It will still be true regardless of his current status.

  75. 75.

    Kofuu

    Anecdotally, there are lots of Teslas around here and I’ve learned to give them a wide berth and expect aggressive and unpredictable behavior from their drivers.

    A good analysis would take into account the types of drivers (age, gender, past driving records, etc.). We probably have a good idea who’s driving Teslas, at least anecdotally.

  76. 76.

    cmorenc

    @gene108:

    It won’t be hard for the people who control social media to point the blame at someone else

    Which has been a thing since back when the southern mill owners and other southern economic elites used racism to point poor & struggling middle class whites to the ni*clang threatening to undeservingly take  over and steal their safety and stuff.  It’s not a new phenomenon that economic elites use their control of media narratives to keep everyone below them in line to preserve their privileged station..

  77. 77.

    JustRuss

     “The models on this list likely reflect a combination of driver behavior and driving conditions, leading to increased crashes and fatalities,” iSeeCars executive analyst Karl Brauer said in the report.

    Sooo….people tend to drive Model Ys in unfavorable driving conditions?  Let’s see some data to support that.

  79. 79.

    Barney

    @tam1MI: Sept 4.3 billion, Oct 4.6 bn, Nov 4.5bn. Basically level; the very slight peak in October may have been from US election talk.

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