Over on BlueSky, people were roasting Pastor Mike for trying to hide the Gaetz Ethics report. I made the point that you just have to look at r/pastorarrested on Reddit to see that hiding sexual predators is a way of life in a lot of churches. It’s reflexive and pervasive. Here are the reports from four days ago:
The only thing strange about the Gaetz case is that he was found out in a reasonable amount of time, instead of 20 or even 50 years. The thing that isn’t strange is that he faced no real legal consequences.
Churches hide predators all the time. I think there’s more to Johnson wanting to hide the Gaetz report than just politics. It’s just the nature of his kind (evangelical Christian).
Whose Idea Was It To Make Christmas on a Wednesday?
Baud
There’s more than one reason right wing religious people hate government.
Betty Cracker
Yep. It’s disgusting that Gaetz skated on legal accountability but not in the least surprising. If Gaetz had been 10% less of a prick to Repub colleagues, he’d probably be AG and a predator for another 50 years. He faced consequences solely because he’s personally repugnant to fellow travelers. That party has demonstrated beyond argument that it welcomes corrupt predators otherwise.
ColoradoGuy
The reason the GOP always accuses Democrats of “grooming” and other weird and improbable things is that’s what they experience in their miserable churches … financial scams all over the place, sexual abuse growing out of power-tripping, and all the other cult pathologies. Trump is a reflection of what happens in these churches … a con job from top to bottom, with sex abuse as an inevitable part of it.
The GOP’ers just accept this non-stop abuse as “normal”. Since Democrats, by definition, must be worse, what happens on our side must be downright demonic.
They have no idea the entire GOP/fundamentalist church organizations are a cult, with abuse, manipulation, and mind control built right into the structure. We see it for what it is, while they live in a fantasy world carefully engineered to keep them in darkness.
Jackie
What’s the odds of Florida’s DOJ pressing charges for statutory rape and human trafficking?
Yah, I kid, I kid…
cmorenc
A better practical explanation for pastor Mike’s attempt to suppress the Gaetz report is the unstable gossamer-thin R majority and fear of being ousted by the far-right nihilist faction within it. Not that you are wrong that conservative evangelical theology and sociology lends itself to supporting abusive, misogynist behavior, and tends to be willfully blind to sexual misconduct by its leaders unless and until irresistibly forced to confront it by too much bad publicity.
Nukular Biskits
Amen, brother.
rikyrah
As always…
I respond to these arrests on Social Media with the Repost and Quote:
NOT.A.DRAG.QUEEN.
cmorenc
@Jackie: The excuse will be the time needed to evaluate whether they have enough solid evidence and credible witnesses to prove a crime under Florida statutes, including statute of limitations. You will probably have time to read all the “Great Books” and re-learn calculus up through advanced differential equations, while they deliberate, in hope that the public will lose interest in the meantime.
kindness
Speaker Moses’s version of Christianity is twisted. Same as much of Evangelical Christianity. They seem to prefer the vengeful god of the Old Testament. There is already a religion for that. It’s called being Jewish and the Torah. Mind you my Jewish family are all Reformed and liberals so please don’t connect the two.
Suzanne
@ColoradoGuy:
All the culturally right-wing denominations that I know of have had high-level coverups of sexual assault. I haven’t heard of any large-scale coverups in mainline denominations. I have no doubt that assault takes place, though.
A Ghost to Most
The selfish and self-righteous are irredeemable assholes.
comrade scotts agenda of rage
This piece isn’t a statistical work, instead looks at the typology:
https://www.qualitativecriminology.com/pub/osa148h6/release/2
Moreover, there’s plenty of reporting on the hiding of such abuses in ‘Murka’s largest Protestant denomination:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jun/12/southern-baptist-church-sexual-abuse-scandal
West of the Rockies
How long was he a Representative? Can any retirement or health care benefits be cut from Beavis?
Glory b
@West of the Rockies: Hes from a fabulously wealthy family. That’s chump change to him.
Starfish (she/her)
@Suzanne: Funny how you don’t have large coverups when women are allowed into church leadership.
John S.
@rikyrah:
I’d be willing to bet that drag queens exhibit far more Christian qualities than many pastors do.
RevRick is one of the good ones, but he seems to be in the minority.
scav
@Starfish (she/her): Might not to wise to assume women don’t. From the political end of things, there’s Margaret Thatcher apparently covering up for MPs, and there are a lot of mothers / parents that agreed to keep silent in order to preserve the good name of the church.
Jeffg166
One wonders where Pastor Mike’s moral clarity is now.
glc
comment by Duncan Black
different-church-lady
Gretchen
@Suzanne: The right-wing evangelicals place high value on leaders being in authority and instant, unquestioning obedience from everyone else. That’s pretty much a set-up for people abusing their authority, since nobody else is allowed to question them. If pastor says God says it’s a sin to vote Democratic, they all follow along like sheep.
zhena gogolia
@John S.: He’s not in the minority among liberal Protestant clergy.
Matt McIrvin
@kindness:
While there’s a lot of material in there and it expresses all sorts of positions, I get the impression that the most bloodthirsty and horrifying takes on the God of the Hebrew Bible tend to come from Christians. Sometimes to play up a supposed contrast with Jesus. Sometimes just because they like a vengeful and cruel god.
Which I suppose rather speaks to your point.
karen marie
Gaetz keeps pointing at the lack of prosecution as proof that he’s “innocent.” One of the media reports I read said that the women who Gaetz paid had said they would plead the 5th to avoid testifying, because of potential exposure to charges of prostitution. Without them, there is no case.
ADD: Having read the link to “Duncan” from above, I can’t imagine what the fuck Garland was up to.
trollhattan
Ewww!
Ohio Mom
@glc: Atrios is pissed.
I recognize that most of the post is a copied excerpt but still, a very long post for him.
Garland made more sense to me after Ohio Dad told me he is a Republican. I wish Democratic presidents would stick to appointing Democrats.
Sally
@rikyrah: I was just looking for this!
Not just evangelical Christians. Church of England going through some things. And well documented Catholic abuses too.
I agree that R’s think we do it because for them it’s normal. So everyone abuses.
Another thing that enrages me is that we have (black) kids rotting in Rykers for possessing a few ounces of cannabis. While a heroin addict will be HHS sec.
What, who, are we?
Baud
@Ohio Mom:
I’ve seen no proof of his party affiliation.
zhena gogolia
@Baud: Oh, god, not this again. I just dipped into the thread, guess I’ll dip back out.
Baud
@zhena gogolia:
Always need to find something to distract people from focusing on Republicans.
Parfigliano
@karen marie: Grant the women immunity then there is no more 5th amendment to hide behind. DA’s do this all the time to get testimony in cases involving alleged perpetrators that don’t come from big money political power.
The truth is He is not being prosecuted because he comes from money/power. The US justice system doesn’t apply to those people the way it does to you and me.
Parfigliano
@karen marie: Garland is a piece of shit. Think Bill Barr with different eye glasses.
suzanne
@Gretchen: The Catholics and LDS have also had large-scale sexual assault coverups. By no means restricted to evangelical Christians.
TBone
@Baud: Fetterman is right there hahahaha
zhena gogolia
@Parfigliano: That’s a disgusting comment.
Tehanu
@kindness:
A commenter on Fred Clark’s slacktivist over on Patheos said this, and I was much struck by it:
TBone
Semper paratus!
Citizen Alan
@Matt McIrvin: i’m drawn to the idea that deep down right wing christianists are basically atheists in denial. They want all of us to live.According to god’s ineffable, plan and to refrain from conduct that they believe will cause god to send us to hell. But they don’t actually trust god to properly punish us in the afterlife. So they work hard to make us miserable in this world.Just in case it turns out that god is nicer than they believe.
hells littlest angel
The only messages Johnson and his son ever sent each other on Covenant Eyes were, “Zip it! Mom’s coming!”
West of the Rockies
I wonder what percentage of clerics truly believe what they’re pushing and for what percent it’s just a job and a chance for cash and power and sexual opportunity.
karen marie
@zhena gogolia: In what way is it disgusting? Given Garland’s track record as AG, I would find it hard to argue differently.
Nukular Biskits
@Citizen Alan:
Interesting theory. Never thought of it that way.
Baud
@karen marie:
We were so unfair to Bill Barr. And Donald Trump. Lesson learned. The voters were correct in rejecting us.
Baud
Duplicate
Nukular Biskits
@karen marie @zhena gogolia @Parfigliano:
I’m going to step into this, admittedly uninvited, and beg to differ.
While I am extremely disappointed that Garland was not more aggressive, particularly on the J6 prosecution of Trump, I’m still willing to give him benefit of the doubt.
Barr, on the other hand, deliberately twisted, spun and outright lied about (for example) the Mueller Report. Garland has done nothing comparable and to equate him with Barr is indeed disgusting IMHO.
Barry
@ColoradoGuy: “The reason the GOP always accuses Democrats of “grooming” and other weird and improbable things is that’s what they experience in their miserable churches … financial scams all over the place, sexual abuse growing out of power-tripping, and all the other cult pathologies. Trump is a reflection of what happens in these churches … a con job from top to bottom, with sex abuse as an inevitable part of it.”
And the Rovian Big Lie technique, where you accuse others of what you are doing yourself.
RevRick
@Nukular Biskits: Sexual and financial misbehavior (and worse) happen in all churches all the time for a variety of reasons:
1). Churches tend to be too trusting. I know of a UCC church which was essentially looted of its assets by a person who served as its treasurer for years. He was a lifelong member. But there were no accountability structures in place.
2). Denial is powerful, because the alternative is painful. Rumors and hints of trouble may be leaking out, but many will react not our pastor, not our church president. The BTK killer in Wichita was president of his local Lutheran church.
3). Ordained ministry is an inherently lonely profession. You learn a lot of secrets, deal with a lot of heartache and tragedy, but are constrained from unburdening to others. Add to that the temptations of intimate contact, especially in counseling situations, or in the case of pedophiles, ready and sustained contact with children.
4). Churches are a good place for bullies and as Scott Peck pointed out, the truly evil, to hide. Congregations are full of people who will push boundaries or are vulnerable to having their boundaries violated. It takes a lot of intentional effort to sustain the maintenance of healthy boundaries in an institution that has the same dynamics as a family.
5). The clergy are shit magnets. Every church is filled with unhealthy people who will direct their unhappiness at the pastor. And the church is unique in that it is a family system of family systems. Every grievance imaginable will be laid at the pastor’s door. But often the worst shit a pastor attracts is idealization. You’re next to God? The seduction of flattery and praise can lead clergy astray.
6). Most clergy are poorly paid. The average church has 60 worshippers, which means they struggle to support a salary, benefits, as well as the upkeep of the building. Financial stresses can be added to the unrealistic expectations parishioners often have of their clergy.
7). All these pitfalls are multiplied in churches with especially elevated views of the clergy, such as Roman Catholic priests and Evangelical pastors.
TBone
@RevRick: now do the Coast Guard, Operation Fouled Anchor.
Sorry, that’s a lame attempt at a joke – the list of “now dos” puts Santa’s naughty list to shame.
oldgold
I think the BIG story here is not what Gaetz was found to have done, but that Trump nominated this miscreant to be Attorney General of the United States after he had to have been privy to the bulk of the information in this report.
Baud
@oldgold:
100%
TBone
@oldgold: those are called “qualifications” at Mar-A-Lardass.
karen gail
What reeks the most about the coverups by wealthy, noble classed, organized religions and political parties is the hypocrisy; they all want a level of ethics, morals and laws for everyone but themselves.
Seems as though every time some charismatic “leader” is in the media for sexual excesses there are also reports of how many people were involved in covering up those excesses. Or how many times the actions of predators are justified by “boys will be boys” even if they haven’t been boys for many years.
karen gail
@oldgold: I have come to the conclusion that many consider actions like Gaetz’s to be qualifications; especially, to someone like Trump.
karen gail
@oldgold: I see someone made that point while took my dog outside.
Nukular Biskits
@RevRick:
Agreed with everything you said there, having seen/experienced it from both the inside and the out.
Forgive me for painting with a broad brush here but churches (at least the evangelical ones I’ve attended and been associated with) contain some of the worst excuses for human beings. I hate to say that because it maligns a lot of good people … but a lot of those “good people” tend to look the other way.
TBone
Wasn’t Marjorie Traitor Goon supposed to “release” ALL the dirt on her colleagues if the Gaetz report was made public? She did say that xit.
That’s a naughty list I’d read.
Johnnybuck
@oldgold: Yeah, but let’s just shit on Garland. This fuckin’ place.
Nukular Biskits
@TBone: WRT this:
I present this:
When you laugh at something you shouldn’t have so you pre-book your place in hell.
RevRick
@Matt McIrvin: A lot of Evangelical theology espouses a schizophrenic view of God. “He” starts out wrathful, becomes forgiving in Jesus, but will revert to wrathful in the end.
Do you want to hear my take on the garbage about The Rapture?
TBone
@Nukular Biskits: thank you hahahahaha! Stollen!
I’ma spring that on a religious friend at the first inappropriate opportunity I get.
Raoul Paste
@oldgold: And Trump did not withdraw the nomination after Gaetz’s activities were revealed.
As the scandal grew, Gaetz removed himself.
karen gail
@oldgold:
Every time I see you Nym, I get a small chuckle, I remember my dad sending me to local “mom and pop” store; he would give me .50 cents. .35 cents was for pack of Old Golds, .15 cents was for a big bag of Fritos Corn Chips and .10 cents was for double scoop of ice cream for running to store for him.
TBone
@RevRick: I do! I know about it starting in the 60s or 70s in some guy’s fever dream book and spreading from there, if I’m remembering correctly at past my bedtime.
Nukular Biskits
@RevRick:
Speaking of which, did you ever see the Rapture scene from “Six Feet Under”?
TBone
@Nukular Biskits: an absolute classic.
RevRick
@Nukular Biskits: As I said, citing Scott Peck, churches are good places for evil people to hide.
BellaPea
This is a little OT, but I watched the movie Conclave last night. I wasn’t sure what to expect, but have to say it was actually fascinating–good mix of church politics, mystery, and intrigue. Superbly acted by Ralph Feines, Stanley Tucci, John Lithgow, and others. It just shows that the Catholic Church is essentially a game with all of the maneuvering and competition for position. Hope I do not offend the Catholics on this site, most religions strike me as the same, jostling for power and money.
TBone
Every time I cuss, hubby tells me I need more Communion at our new church. “Whoops, there you go again! Better go get some more Communion!”
Nukular Biskits
@RevRick:
And the sad thing is it takes only one to absolutely bring a good church down. And, far too often, the members of that church are accomplices, willing or not.
Omnes Omnibus
@Ohio Mom: Not a Republican. Not a member of the Federalist Society.
Doc Sardonic
@TBone: Is the communion 100 proof?
opiejeanne
@Suzanne: It does. I know of one case within my own denomination at my local church that was handled promptly and correctly, but I know that there may be cover-ups within mine and other mainline churches.
opiejeanne
@scav: My DIL was molested by someone in her Jehovah’s Witness church when she was 13 or 14. (And yet she stays a JW). Her mother was shocked when she finally told her, many years later, but when she asked her mom if she would have believed her at the time, her mother answered that she would not have. I have read that the JW leadership covers up a lot of the abuse.
I don’t understand any of the dynamics of that.
Matt McIrvin
@RevRick: Oh, Premillennial Dispensationalism, the idea that the absolute moral standards of good and evil are not only set arbitrarily by the whim of God, but are subject to change and are adjusted from time to time for various periods in the eschatological calendar!
Nukular Biskits
@Matt McIrvin:
Don’t forget the “DON’T YOU JUDGE ME!” and “Christians aren’t perfect, just forgiven!” cards that get played by the self-righteous when they get busted.
different-church-lady
@RevRick: Hey, when is The Rapture this year? It seems like I always miss it.
Steve LaBonne
All these Talibangical hypocrites definitely need a damn good hiding.
Nukular Biskits
@different-church-lady:
Blondie – Rapture (Official Music Video)
different-church-lady
Wait… did somebody say stollen?
Steve LaBonne
@different-church-lady: https://images.app.goo.gl/C57WAWp3U847i9BS6
TBone
@different-church-lady: *raises hand, sheepishly
Salty Sam
Obligatory classic: https://theonion.com/god-diagnosed-with-bipolar-disorder-1819566045/
Professor Bigfoot
@Tehanu: I think you’re right- they’re onto something with that.
Matt McIrvin
@Citizen Alan: Well, they piss me off by implying that everyone in their heart really believes in God (and maybe even the divinity of Jesus) but atheists pretend to disbelieve in him out of a sinful spirit of rebellion. So I won’t assume the reverse about them.
oldgold
@karen gail: I used to run similar missions for my father on Sunday afternoons
Years later it dawned on me that the purpose of my trips to the local grocer was not to get him a pack of cigarettes, given he usually had a full carton in reserve. It was to get me out of the house for a defined period of time so he and mother could nap.
But, unlike you, the store never extended. me 10 cents worth of credit.
suzanne
@Citizen Alan:
This is absolutely what I believe. (I have many friends who left right-wing religions and they all confirmed something like this.) It’s so hard to adhere to all the proper behavioral standards, to feel guilty all the time….. and then you look over at nonbelievers, or even religious liberals, and they seem much less conflicted and guilt-stricken. They’re doing the things you want to do. Maybe they think you’re an sheeple. And so…. the idea that there isn’t a judgy God, that there isn’t really a reward for all this self-inflicted suffering…. that becomes a really terrifying idea.
different-church-lady
@suzanne:
Well sure. But we’re going to end up in Hell.
wenchacha
@Nukular Biskits: In the late 70s, early 80s, my sister was in a church that was aligned with Bill Gothard. Ick.
She went to one of his conferences, came home all charged up with the spirit.
She wore a button expressing “Please be patient. God is not finished with me yet.” Message being, “if I serve as a bad witness, it’s just because I am still learning.” Sure, okay. But then maybe don’t be telling ME how to live my life.
She’s much better now.
Chief Oshkosh
@glc: Which leads to Sarah Kendzior’s piece. Which I don’t suggest some people here read. Because, you know, the holidays and all that.
RevRick
@TBone: It all begins with a colossal misunderstanding of the meaning of the word parousia (second coming) and the nature of the meeting (apantao) in 1Thessalonians 4:17.
In chapter 4 of St. Paul’s first letter to the church in Thessalonia, he lays out what he sees is the sequence of events regarding Jesus’ return. This letter is believed to have been written somewhere between the early 40s C. E. to around 50 C. E.
Anyway, he sees it as kind of an opposing imitation of the ritual governing the visitation of a Roman Emperor to an imperial city.
The imperial style would be a decree from the Emperor announcing the visit, followed (after all due preparations) by trumpets heralding his arrival, at which point an honorary delegation would go to meet him outside the city, and as they went down the road to the city they would pass the graves of the city’s honored dead, and then enter to celebrate dedications, tributes, sacrifices and community banquets.
Paul mimics this process as follows:
”For the Lord himself, with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call and with the sound of God’s trumpet, will descend from heaven, and the dead in Christ will arise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up in the clouds together with them to meet the Lord in the air; and so we will be with the Lord forever.”
Now the Thessalonian Christians would immediately get the imagery Paul is laying out since they were on the Roman road to Asia Minor and their city was an important port in the Empire. They would understand that the meeting in the clouds was a welcome delegation whose job was to escort the Lord Jesus back to his permanent home on Earth.
Most of the garbage interpretations begin by imposing a Platonic notion that the world is irredeemable and the body is a prison. So, the soul’s only hope is to escape from here into the perfect place of heaven. But the early church, all Jewish converts or “Godfearers”, Gentiles who worshipped in synagogues, saw humans as body-spirit unitys. And the book of Revelation concludes with God coming down and declaring that God’s true, final dwelling place is with us, when heaven and Earth are one.
karen marie
@Nukular Biskits: Six of one, half a dozen of another – the end result is the same. People who should have been prosecuted weren’t. And one of them was elected president in November of this year.
karen marie
@BellaPea: It’s fiction, sweetheart. It doesn’t tell you anything about the Catholic church.
Darkrose
@different-church-lady: I just got back from picking ours up at the bakery.
RevRick
@different-church-lady: I had a church member whose son owned a bakery that made stollen, so every Christmas he gave me one.
Nukular Biskits
@wenchacha:
I may have shared this story, or at least part of it, here before:
My parents’ firstborn was a daughter, Jeannie. When she was about 18 months, she became sickly and, after a lot of testing, they determined she had liver cancer and nothing more could be done. My parents had to experience the two worst things any parent could possibly experience: The slow, painful loss of a child and the inability to do anything to alleviate her suffering.
I don’t know exactly the religious beliefs of my parents at that time in their lives (I had yet to come along and neither of them really talked it in later years) but, given the times and the culture (small-town MS in the early 60s), it’s probably a safe bet that evangelical Christianity had a large influence on their lives. My dad’s oldest brother had joined Jehovah’s Witnesses and, after Jeannie died, he sent my dad a letter saying the my parents must have really sinned against God for Him to take away their daughter.
According to my mother, my dad never spoke to that brother again, for as long as my father lived (he died at age 63 in 2004).
I was born (my mother was pregnant with me when Jeannie died), followed by my brother then, when my parents divorced, my baby sister. To my knowledge, my father never attended another church service, other than those for a funeral. My mother would attend for certain events, like weddings or Easter, but, other than that, it was pretty much the same for her.
It’s cliche’ but some of the worst damage done to churches is by their own members.
ETA: Some minor edits.
Nukular Biskits
@karen marie:
That doesn’t make Garland “shit”.
different-church-lady
@Chief Oshkosh: I’d say Kendzior is being extreme, except that it all makes more sense than any of the other explanations.
No One You Know
Revengelical Christianity strikes again. I believe in God/Goddess, but not in anything built by the hands of humans. Especially humans who define that term as narrowly as white conservative men do.
different-church-lady
@wenchacha:
GOD: “I’m not finished with you yet…”
YY_Sima Qian
WTF is this?!
I’ve always found Jon Fetterman to harbor some progressive views on domestic policy, but reactionary views on foreign policy. I guess he is leaning into his reactionary side?
Urza
@YY_Sima Qian: I’m going to go with the stroke changed him. Otherwise he was quite a good liar when campaigning.
Origuy
IANAL so I don’t know if there are Federal charges that can be brought against Gaetz. Statutory rape is usually charged as a state crime. Could Garland have brought charges in a Florida court? I don’t think so.
different-church-lady
@Urza: It’s also possible we were so consumed with not having a Senator Oz that we were just blind to Fetterman’s nutty side.
TONYG
The Catholic Church is the Original Gang when it comes to this type of thing, but, damn, the Evangelicals are a close second.
Dorothy A. Winsor
@BellaPea: I liked that movie a lot for various reasons. I liked seeing how the papal election actually worked. I didn’t realize they voted in the Sistine Chapel. And the intrigue. And the sexism that kept the nuns as servants to the men.
At the showing I went to, a man stormed out at the end, obviously very upset.
TONYG
@Urza: My experience with older relatives who had strokes is that the stroke doesn’t really change the person; it lets the real personality come through.
persistentillusion
@Suzanne: I grew up in a mainstream Presbyterian church. My mother had a least an emotional affair, perhaps a physical one, with the minister. He also made a pass at me. I was 16.
My father arranged to have the minister run out of town on the proverbial rail. Never prouder.
coin operated
@Citizen Alan: Trump is their savior…Jesus is just a mascot
scav
Aka “I don’t have to obey the law! I know the police chief’s son.” Plus, getting their way into the afterlife disco by muttering the right word to the bouncer, irregardless of dress code.
Suzanne
@YY_Sima Qian: Fetterman is craven, IMHO, and he’s scared now that Casey got voted out. So he’s being a suck-up.
He sucks. Ughhhh.
narya
@Nukular Biskits: my father was raised Presbyterian but regarded himself as agnostic when he met my raised-atheist mother. After my sister died, he went full-on atheist, and he once said he read that people who buried a child went in both directions (more religious or atheist). Your dad’s reaction sounds fitting to me…
Melancholy Jaques
@YY_Sima Qian:
With Manchin and Sinema gone, there is an opening in the “But Some” Democrats slot.
karen gail
@oldgold:
Until you said something I never realized that two scoops was “credit;” I doubt it was a real credit since Dad also bought his cigarettes from there. I must have been all of eight at the time and didn’t question adults; I should have been able to add better by that time but never crossed my mind.
Suzanne
@Melancholy Jaques: As someone who voted for Sinema multiple times — always while holding my nose — I honestly think some of these people have no moral center and just want to be famous. I’m not sure if Fetterman falls into that category.
But PA has lots of good Democrats. I am sure he’ll get a worthy primary opponent.
Melancholy Jaques
@Suzanne:
There’s got to be a better way. How many times do we primary an incumbent and hold the seat?
geg6
@glc:
Jesus. There’s been plenty of pushback to any criticism of Garland and I admit to defending him too much and too long. But this is unacceptable. WTF kind of game is he playing? It’s egregious.
Starfish (she/her)
@scav: It’s not that women don’t cover up for this stuff. It is that when there is power sharing amongst groups that are not homogeneous, some of the corruption falls out of the system.
scav
@Starfish (she/her): But that’s different from what you said or at least strongly implied. Also, if the women involved are members of the church, that may just be more homogeneity in that they too have a personal and overriding interest in protecting the reputation of the church.
Parfigliano
@geg6: Yup.
lowtechcyclist
@scav:
And that’s such bullshit. It’s not like “being saved” gets you magically waved on in, no matter how genuine that experience was.
We cannot bring our sin with us into heaven. We simply cannot. And when that sin is very much part of our being, letting go of it involves real change, and at least in this life, that can be incredibly difficult.
Maybe it’ll be easier in the next life; having never been there, there’s no testimony I have about it. But relying on faith in the magic words while holding onto your sin…well, for one thing, it gives the lie to the phrase “born again,” It says Christ hasn’t actually made a difference in our lives.
And if he hasn’t made a difference in our lives, then what’s the point? However much faith we have in heaven, we’re still going to have to live for a long time in this world. Not to mention, if the Lord hasn’t changed us, then what sort of evidence are we that he is real? It’s better evidence for the proposition that he isn’t! If we were shitty people before being ‘saved,’ and we’re still shitty people content to live as ‘saved’ shitty people, the word ‘evangelism’ really needs an antonym here.
Sure, the Lord isn’t finished with us yet, but he expects some partici…
…
…
…pation,
(Sorry, this RHPS fan couldn’t resist. ;-)
hitchhiker
My brother Charlie was an altar boy at a church whose priest later admitted to a sexual relationship with *one* of the young boys in that parish. This was in the early 70s. Charlie had been a quiet, funny, skinny kid. He gained weight that year — a lot of weight. Later he started using and then dealing cocaine on a pretty impressive scale, a career path that ended when someone turned him in and he went state’s evidence for the FBI, putting a number of dangerous people in prison. He married, fathered a son, divorced, married again, blew his wife’s inheritance, and then mostly financed his bizarre life by inventing ways to cheat insurance companies.
He was about to go to prison for one of those scams when he went to a local shooting range, rented a gun, and after a few hours of target practice, turned the thing at his own heart and pulled the trigger.
There was no one in our family of ten that Charlie hadn’t at least tried to steal from; his biggest successes were with my parents, who never quite understood what he was. After his suicide my mom asked me if I thought that Father Ron had messed with him way back when. Yes, Mom. Yes of course I think that.
I can’t read these stories of church men abusing kids without doing the arithmetic to figure out how old he should be.
Sally
@hitchhiker: I am so sorry for this tragedy. Unfortunately it happens to so many. Such a tragedy that Charlie was not given the help that he needed. And that the priest was not duly charged and punished.
One way these criminals get away with their crimes is that the victims, who are usually the only witnesses, are so affected by the crimes that they are deemed, by the defence, ie, the church, as “unreliable witnesses”. Their very disfunction is the proof of the crime.
Sister Inspired Revolver of Freedom
@rikyrah: Same!😡
WTFGhost
I don’t want to be the big stink here tonight, but, I did want to post something.
Some churches see “sin” as a spiritual failing. I can imagine, for example, the Roman Catholic church removing a priest from the reach of secular authorities, to fix the spiritual failing.
Is this right? Well, it fits an 1950s/1960s view of the world where these things Just Don’t Happen, and where protection of the priest is… well, let’s be brutal: it’s like the protection of Donald Trump.
“Would you want non-Catholics to think *priests* are *child molesters?* No, we need to hide them.”
Can’t you just see his handlers saying the same thing? “We can’t let people see how corrupt he *is*, we need him to do what we want him to do!”
Each step is a teeny-tiny step to depravity, and yet, with all the warnings (“The road to hell is paved with good intentions”), there are a lot of people who choose depravity.
TBone
@RevRick: thanks for that history theory about why it is written the way it is. I get very frustrated by people who take it seriously and actually believe it so hard that they stock up prepper supplies using a credit card (I know someone who did this as a result of listening to a church leader so I remind her alla time that no one is supposed to be able know when this will occur or be able to escape judgement and preparation is useless and contrary to the entire idea). The dumb is very frustrating. Colossal misunderstanding!
TONYG
@kindness: I’m not directly familiar with Evangelical Christianity, but as an ex-Catholic I’m pretty familiar with that cult. What they preached to the rank and file on Sunday was all about Jesus; pretty much ignoring the Old Testament. But, of course, that religion is a cesspool of sexual abuse. It probably has more to do with powerful men claiming to represent God than it has to do with any particular theology.
Liminal Owl
@RevRick: I would like that. (But then, hearing about odd religious stuff is one of my specialties. (I used to have a list of Odd Dominican Miracles…)
WereBear
@TONYG: “Purity cults” are always a mess.
Holding back basic human needs and drives is tormenting people, simple as that.
RevRick
@Liminal Owl: I guess you missed my comment #90, if that is to what you are referring.
Miss Bianca
@different-church-lady:
Hmmm…do you suppose maybe there’s a *reason* you miss out on the annual Heavenly Hoovering? >:>