I’d like to start this post with an off-topic shoutout to the Kwikset company for requiring a certain size Allen wrench to take the knob off of a door, which I’m sure was immediately lost 15 years ago when the knob was installed. I shall be searching for this tool for probably a long fucking time all over this little town.
My second shoutout is to Marcie Jones at Wonkette, for doing all the legwork on the possible closing down of TikTok. The basics are: Trump signed an executive order saying that ByteDance (owner of TikTok) had to divest within 90 days or else. The “or else” never happened for complicated reasons, and Trump has now changed his tune since a big shareholder in ByteDance made a big investment in his social media turd. Unfortunately for Trump and probably also Democrats, the bipartisan bill that was signed into law in April will kill TikTok on January 19 unless ByteDance divests.
The background music to this fairy tale drama is Mark Zuckerberg working the refs because Facebook is now just for grandma to share pictures of her grandkids, and also to fall for every hack or scam known to man, Instagram is for skinfluencers to hock fashion trash, and Threads apparently exists only to remind us that BlueSky is way, way better. TikTok is eating his lunch so he did what every capitalist does: made big political contributions to get his way.
Anyway, anti-fans of the Progressive Caucus will be happy to know that they were part of the bipartisan consensus on the Tik Tok ban. Just kidding, they voted against it in the House, and Voldemort voted against it in the Senate.
That was the right vote, in my view, for two reasons. First, if you’re going to regulate social media, fucking regulate all of the things, not just the one that supposedly spews Chinese propaganda, because, I’m sad to report, all these platforms get abused by foreign governments. Second, don’t take a vote that makes you look like an out-of-touch old person, and shuttering a popular social media platform is the 2024 equivalent of the stupid satanic-panic driven music nonsense of the 80’s and 90’s.
What’s going to happen now is that there will be a lot of drama around TikTok possibly closing, and the Supremes will probably do what Trump wants, which is to delay the shuttering, and then the Art of the Deal to Grease His Palms will once again put money in Trump’s pocket as some shell company buys out ByteDance in a way where everyone gets rich. Trump will look like the savvy savior, I’m guessing.
Another huge distraction that we didn’t need, over a platform that is no bigger threat than any other, at a time when we should be concentrating on something else. Welcome to Trump 2.0.
matt
I think we’re going to see plenty of this kind of punitive government attack on non-Trump allied tech companies.
A Ghost to Most
Fight fascism. Kill ALL your social media.
Steve LaBonne
Since this is an open thread, I want to vent about something unrelated. Why hasn’t Biden signed the Social Security Fairness Act? My understanding (someone please correct me if I’m wrong) is that he has to do it before noon on January 3 when the new Congress takes office. I am beginning to suspect that he intends a pocket veto. This does not make me happy.
rikyrah
DAPPER DON DHARSHI • K A M I L • (@SoloFlow786) posted at 2:23 PM on Sun, Dec 29, 2024:
I am fluent in right-wing terminology. Let me define a few words for you:
DEI- the N-word.
CRT- Black History.
Woke- diversity and inclusion.
Prolife- forced birth.
School choice- defunded public schools.
Right to Work- the end of union wages.
Liberty- guns and ammo
(https://x.com/SoloFlow786/status/1873464864133501098?s=02)
Scout211
I did think that this news from the past two days was amusing.
LOL.
lollipopguild
Kaos Muppet has to Kaos Muppet, especially when he gets paid.
KatKapCC
OT but good news: Appeals court upholds $5 million E. Jean Carroll verdict against Trump
Of course, Cheung spewed the usual HOAX!!! garbage and said they’ll continue to appeal. Go for it, dummy. Keep wasting his money.
Nukular Biskits
M2, you’re making far too much sense here lately.
Or maybe I’m just reading your posts more carefully.
Anyhoo, agreed, FWIW.
rikyrah
Chris Murphy![]()
(@ChrisMurphyCT) posted at 8:28 AM on Sun, Dec 29, 2024:
The attacker yelled at the reporter “This is Trump’s America now!” Then chased him back to this TV studio, ran the reporter down as he tried to get into the door, and strangled him until he could no longer breathe.
Not an unimportant story. https://t.co/U6Jaao4DmV
(https://x.com/ChrisMurphyCT/status/1873375649609458018?t=8VS30kZuFZWkFaGlOU9Q0w&s=03)
Suzanne
Open thread? This is worth reading from the Atlantic: The Rise of the Union Right.
Baud
@Scout211:
He can negotiate TikTok’s return if it gets shut down in the US.
rikyrah
KAMALA NATION (@KamalaNation) posted at 0:10 PM on Sun, Dec 29, 2024:
Tired of hearing from clout chasing so called Democratic strategists on why we “lost.”
It’s simple: 90 million couldn’t be bothered to vote and/or not ready for a black, South Asian woman to lead the country ruled by patriarchal society for years. End of story.
(https://x.com/KamalaNation/status/1873431386553806885?t=J4mxmt8F-tiy7Y50_Ssz6g&s=03)
Earl
Can’t say I’m sad.
No reason to offer Chinese companies open access to America when American companies aren’t offered the same to China.
@mistermix.bsky.social
@Scout211: The level of fluffing required to be Trump’s lawyer is beyond the bounds of anything we’ve seen in the past. New legal ground is being broken daily.
prostratedragon
Haven’t an opinion on the banning, but there is this:
Nukular Biskits
@@mistermix.bsky.social:
No. Not broken but created like an undersea volcano creates islands, except of using lava, they use bullshit.
rikyrah
Donald Trump is a white DEI hire (@Needle_of_Arya) posted at 11:31 AM on Sat, Dec 28, 2024:
y’all need to start paying more attention to the DSA districts on the West Coast whose members are funded by area tech bros: Ro Khanna in California, Pramilla Jayapal in Washington State, et al
(https://x.com/Needle_of_Arya/status/1873059282746515880?t=DE4RnDQ0snVuJWm4S94CnA&s=03)
KatKapCC
Hmm…not sure what happened, I typed out a comment and clicked “post” and the page refreshed, but the comment isn’t here. Maybe it got caught in a filter due to a flagged word or something?
Baud
@KatKapCC:
BJ posting has been buggy for me lately.
Jackie
TCFG has officially and full throatedly given pastor Mike his endorsement as SOTH.
This is gonna be fun…!
Mr. Bemused Senior
@Nukular Biskits: Maybe 5000 lawyers at the bottom of the ocean wasn’t such a good idea.
Steve LaBonne
@Jackie: Trump has made it very clear that in the billionaire techbros vs MAGA civil war, he’s 100% on the billionaires’ side (surprise surprise). There will be so many shocked MAGAs with faces chewed off by leopards. Fun times.
Baud
Aren’t we automatically supposed to be against anything Trump wants?
KatKapCC
@Baud: Ah, well…the gist of the post is that an appeals court upheld the $5 million verdict against Trump in E Jean Carroll’s case. Good news!
Old School
@Steve LaBonne:
Looks like Biden might have longer than the 3rd.
Steve LaBonne
@Baud: We’re in rooting for injuries mode now.
prostratedragon
@rikyrah: Great poster in the first comment. Not even coy about it. I had somehow thought he was from SoCA, which frankly didn’t fit all the seeming he does. This fits.
Steve LaBonne
@Old School: Thanks, I hope that’s right. I saw a claim that he plans to sign it on Jan. 6 when he comes back from his Caribbean vacation.
rikyrah
Darvio Morrow (@DTheKingpin) posted at 7:32 AM on Fri, Dec 27, 2024:
Two of the biggest pushers of the “DEI hysteria” were Vivek and Elon. And they (along with others) made people actually believe that there was this wave of Black people who were getting jobs that we didn’t deserve. It was never true. Statistically other groups benefitted FAR more from DEI than Black people. But they convinced you otherwise and (some of) you went along with it. Now Vivek tells you that if you care about American jobs going to American workers, that’s the equivalent to DEI.
Do you see how much of a SCAM the hysteria was the entire time? Instead of having conversations about legitimate concerns with “DEI” as currently understood, they weaponized many of you against the entire IDEA of diversity and inclusion. Only to turn around and tell you that you don’t deserve a seat at the table either. Black people are always a canary in the coal mine. Elites will abuse you the same way they abuse us. It never fails. Get it through your heads. Either we win together or we lose together. Wake up.
(https://x.com/DTheKingpin/status/1872636564431364442?s=02)
Baud
@Steve LaBonne:
I just do what I’m told. But I’m told different things.
comrade scotts agenda of rage
@rikyrah:
A “Leadership Circle Couple” can attend for a mere $13,200. I wonder why the $200 was tacked on? Admin fees?
Khanna represents tech bros first, everybody else last.
Baud
@rikyrah:
Pretty sure the audience has chosen the latter option.
Omnes Omnibus
@A Ghost to Most: Why are you posting on a blog?
Peke Daddy
@rikyrah: Ex Marine, annoying person being a perceived threat, street execution justified. Where could he possibly have gotten that idea?
Baud
@Omnes Omnibus:
We’re antisocial media.
Bill Arnold
@Baud:
[reading that as a joke, replying seriously]
Nah, Cleek’s Law is for “conservatives” with insect minds.
Twitter/X, Truth Social, and some other US-based social media sites are in practice much worse and blatant propaganda platforms than TikTok, and some of them freely allow large-scale propaganda/influence operations run by foreign governments.
Old School
@comrade scotts agenda of rage:
Pretty sure it is due to federal campaign limits.
John S.
@Baud:
Nope. But it’s always a good opportunity to make sure that your watch isn’t busted when the broken clock tells the same time twice a day.
Another Scott
I mentioned this yesterday:
John S.
One of the actual threats to US security from China that comes in an unusual form is… payment devices.
PAX is a Chinese company that makes them, and over the years has gained considerable market share over Verifone and Ingenico. I guarantee every person here has used one of their devices.
A few years ago, they were caught sending data back to China. They claimed no personal data was being sent, and for whatever reason their bullshit response was accepted at face value.
prostratedragon
@Scout211: How does he get his cut otherwise?
(Thanks to abc for printing out from the pdf filing. This passage should never be forgotten.)
Bill Arnold
@Scout211:
Weak praise. That lawyer should consider upping their game.
I mean, Mr. Trump’s makeup is akin to the veil that Moses wore, except that Trump is[1] an actual (low-level) divine being:
The Radiant Face of Moses (Exodus 34:29-35, New International Version)
[1] “It depends on what the meaning of ‘is’ is,”
The Audacity of Krope
What Trump wants now? Or yesterday? Or tomorrow?
Because I’m old enough to remember Trump being at the front of the “ban TikTok” parade.
prostratedragon
@Another Scott: Salut!
Anonymous At Work
I’m agnostic on the TikTok ban for the simple reason that government-ownership of corporations, either openly or sub rosa through sovereign wealth funds or covert via kleptocracy (Russia, China), is a legitimate basis for regulations or required divestment.
Recognition of that concern is my reason to support it; I’m agnostic because this was a very ham-handed method. I would prefer Senator Warren’s ethics reforms that treat sovereign wealth funds, and all they own, as an extension of the government.
hrprogressive
I don’t use TikTok and I think its ill-effects on the mental health of the citizens of the nation, mainly children, are deleterious enough that if the platform really did “go away”, I wouldn’t shed a tear for it.
That said, I think the Federal Government singling it out in the haphazard fashion they chose to pursue because something something China Bad something something “communism” isn’t the way to do it.
Pretty much all social media has different levels of utility and venom these days, but I literally watched a 5-to-8 year old glued to TikTok on a tablet in a Walgreens the other day, so something is detrimentally wrong with our “body politic” as it were.
Anyway.
This all sounds like much ado about not much right now, but who the fuck knows.
Twitter’s utility was openly destroyed by fascist financiers giving Elon the credit needed to buy it, which was by design.
I still need to join BlueSky but I keep not doing it for reasons.
Oh well.
The Other Bob
If anything TikToc America will be spun off or sold. There is no way anyone is leaving that amount of profit to just die.
Is Zuckerberg buying it? Would not shock me.
SW
You can go to the hardware store and buy yourself a tool that looks like a Swiss army knife but has pretty much all the Allen wrenches you’ll ever need. There are two versions metric and the crazy pants units based on the kings penis or something.
trollhattan
@comrade scotts agenda of rage:
Ticketmaster has to wet their beak, too. Jeez!
Betty
@Steve LaBonne: I believe I saw him promoting the law as a positive thing so I feel pretty certain he intends to sign it.
prostratedragon
@Bill Arnold: More like the gold paint that 18th Dynasty pharaohs wore on their faces. To make major pronouncements, they would go to a certain loge in the palace (Window of Appearances) that was constructed to catch and transmit the golden hour sunlight, and stand so that the audience would see the sun as emanating from them.
Melancholy Jaques
@Suzanne:
It’s behind a paywall, so I can’t read the article. But the subhead “Democrats need some kitchen-table policies. Quick” caused my blood pressure to rise to dangerous levels. Does that subhead match the body of the article?
Democrats have enacted and advocated more kitchen table policies than anything else. What we have learned to our horror is that the voters do not understand or care about policies.
Why do people insist on alternate realities where various forms of Real Americans hate the Democratic Party. But it’s not about racism! No way, can’t be, don’t even bring that up. And it can’t be about misogyny. Why would anyone say such a thing?
Nukular Biskits
@SW:
All you need is duct tape, a hammer and Vice Grips.
Bill Arnold
@SW:
They are among the most used tools in my (physical no-computer hardware) toolbox.
Another Scott
@The Other Bob: Supposedly (I believe Martin has talked about this) TikTok’s secret sauce is the algorithms on the servers back in China and ByteDance will “never” give those up. They claim (probably disingenuously) that they follow all the US rules about ages and personal information, but have to talk to the servers in China. People I respect do say that there are legitimate security concerns with TikTok, even as others use it as a cudgel to try to beat up on Xi and China for other reasons.
So, I expect that someone is going to have to blink. Either ownership and the servers and algorithms (or something like them) will have to be duplicated in the US or TikTok will be shut down in the USA.
Just my $0.02.
Best wishes,
Scott.
Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony
@Nukular Biskits:
That sounds like a line out of one of those right-wing copaganda torture porn movies.
UncleEbeneezer
@Melancholy Jaques: As Magdi Jacobs posted on Bluesky: How is “Let me help you buy your first house” not a “kitchen-table” issue? Harris promised to push for eldercare, affordable housing, healthcare, reducing cost of college, etc.
Another Scott
@Suzanne:
@Melancholy Jaques:
Paywall-free version of the Atlantic story on archive.is.
HTH!
Best wishes,
Scott.
Kay
I like TikTok. It has a different energy than the more mature social media sites – big mish mash of people, chaotic but friendly. Boisterous.
It also has the largest collection of (actual) Leftists I have seen on the internet and a big Mexican (not Mexican American) group of popular posters.
I lurk on Bluesky but I fear it’s a little smug and self satisfied, oh aren’t we all great and enlightened, that sort of thing. I think that’s a danger for liberals and something they should actively resist.
I’ll be sorry if they ban TikTok. I think it might be fertile ground for US liberals, but you have to appreciate/embrace chaos to enjoy it :)
Baud
@UncleEbeneezer:
But nothing to make kitchen tables more affordable.
Nukular Biskits
@Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony:
You didnt’ have to tell everybody! Geez!
comrade scotts agenda of rage
@Melancholy Jaques:
The author is simply another entitled white Atlantic writer (she’s married to Little Ezra Klein) tasked with laundering libertarian stuff (like weakening the Dem/Union connections in any way possible) for broader consumption aimed at the Totebagger Radio audience. Her track record in that regard is entirely predictable from the, white, urban “new liberals” (aka rebranded Blue Dogs except “we’re okay on abortion”).
It conveniently leaves out a broader level of support among non-trades unionists (like teachers, no shock there given how these same writers are typically onboard the charter school grift train).
And these same people who’s main post-election hot take is “it’s all about the misogyny and racism” leave that out when wanting to make a point, in this case against unions, when trying to explain the election results.
Do the Teamsters need a massive dope slap? Absolutely. O’Brien’s comments post election contain some valid points but for the most part are disingenuous as all gitout. Are they hopelessly lost like police and firefighter unions tend to be? Still don’t know.
UncleEbeneezer
@Baud: Why do you hate granite countertops?
comrade scotts agenda of rage
From Frank Conniff:
It wasn’t just that CNN show. Much of the 80s, one heard a ton of ridiculing of Carter’s post-presidency activities. By the usual sources.
Jackie
Apparently, NOW J6 means a lot to TCFG LOL
I do hope his anti Musk faction of the House, delays and disrupts his J6. It’s impeccable everything goes smoothly, so TCFG can proclaim “it was the most peaceful and uneventful J6 EVEH!”
matt
@Melancholy Jaques: because they want the Democrats to be the party of not fighting.
Baud
@comrade scotts agenda of rage:
History’s Greatest Monster (The Simpsons)
NotMax
@Nukular Biskits
I’ll stick with vise grips, if you don’t mind. Prefer my vices not being unduly crimped.
;)
Kay
TikTok was and is the place to be for both the Amazon strike and the Starbucks strike so maybe unions know something about where to find friendlies that Democrats don’t. Amazon Teamsters are more black and brown and female than the Teamsters as a whole and so are Starbucks union members. That’s the future of labor unions
Starbucks union organized 150 more stores in 2024 for total of more than 500 – that is very successful outreach.
TBone
Reposting from earlyish
Fuckerberg says “Hold my beer, Elno.”
https://bsky.app/profile/goldengateblond.bsky.social/post/3leiv2t5xp22b
Bot infestation incoming!
TBone
@A Ghost to Most: I am proud to be ahead of that curve.
comrade scotts agenda of rage
@Kay:
Starburcks is striking right now:
https://www.wsaz.com/2024/12/23/starbucks-strike-expands-closes-nearly-60-us-stores/
2024 might be the high water mark (for now) in that kind of organizing. Pieces from earlier in the year:
https://nwlaborpress.org/2024/01/starbucks-store-closures-were-illegal/
https://www.wskg.org/2024-09-16/judge-orders-reopening-of-2-unionized-starbucks-stores-in-ithaca-that-closed
Might be become a thing of the past given the anti-labor-ness of the incoming (mal)administration.
Baud
@TBone: Will they interact with pathetic old dudes to make them feel attractive?
Asking for a friend.
TBone
@Steve LaBonne: wait till you see what they said he’s planning for AI and power generation on federal land – I can’t quite believe it. It’s WaPoo, so…(But not a WaPoo link)
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/biden-plan-would-encourage-ai-data-centers-on-federal-lands/ar-AA1w9EPu
Melancholy Jaques
@Another Scott:
Thank you. I read it. My original response stands.
TBone
@rikyrah: “thoughts and prayers” is slang for “tough shit.”
comrade scotts agenda of rage
@Baud:
Only if a valid credit card number is provided.
TBone
@Baud: hahahahaha!!! They might even have legs, albeit with an improper amount of toes!
Kay
@comrade scotts agenda of rage:
It ended. They didn’t get a contract, so not good, but as I wrote they’re growing and that is really good news.
I hope they vote for Democrats but Labor unions are good for US workers no matter what % vote R or D. They lift wages for everyone.
Dorothy A. Winsor
@Kay: I surprised myself by enjoying tiktok. I stick pretty much to stuff about reading and writing. I even enjoy making the videos. It feels like story telling to me.
rikyrah
@comrade scotts agenda of rage:
He spends way too much phucking time on Fox News.
TBone
@SW: L.O. frickin’ L! Hubby has such a set.
frosty
@Nukular Biskits: And WD-40. Don’t forget that. Remember the mantra:
If it sticks and shouldn’t – WD-40.
If it doesn’t stick and it should – duct tape.
rikyrah
About TikTok….
I enjoy it, but, it going away wouldn’t be harmful for me.
I would miss the Cat Distribution System videos.
Kay
Where Democrats can use unions effectively is in certain races. Just talking about “unions” is meaningless. Police unions are Right wing and so are prison guard unions. Any analysis of “unions” will include those two groups which skew a national number Right. That doesn’t tell you anything about the Teamsters or teachers unions.
Marcy Kaptur has a long relationship with labor unions in Toledo and they put her over the top in a tight race. That’s where they’re effective. Broad declarations about “unions” are just not useful.
frosty
Why the hell would they want to do that? FB is already a cesspit of suggested posts, sponsored posts, and ads that I have to wade through to find out if my IRL friends are doing anything interesting. Now I’ll have AI bots jamming my feed?
Kay
State races too. Andy Beshear won because teachers unions backed him, twice.
Old Man Shadow
This is all community theater designed to get the “right” people paid. Nothing more.
We live in a noir world. The “boss” will get his cut. The courts will rubber stamp the deal. Business will continue fucking over the consumer.
So it goes.
Harry
@A Ghost to Most: this blog is social form of media.
tobie
@Scout211: i must be confused. What do Trump’s supposed “deal making skills” have to do with the right of Congress to pass legislation?
Eunicecycle
@frosty: I thought the same thing. I spent some time this morning blocking a bunch of accounts that litter my feed. Some said I could “unfollow” them, though I know I never followed them to begin with!
The Audacity of Krope
Trump wants to get his beak wet.
TBone
@Harry: yes BUT we don’t have to worry about our data being scraped because we’re participating here, plus we don’t have bots. Pretty sure John Cole is not selling our data to the highest bidder. Pretty sure…
Harry
@mistermix.bsky.social this is a really good analysis.
Here’s the thing. China is a defacto capitalist country, with authoritarian tendencies. They like making money, and they don’t want to hurt the US because they invest in America so much. And don’t get me started on spying. They do no more than we do.
The Chinese companies want to collect the same data US companies want. While that can be used for bad purposes, there is a real need to figure out where the app fails, because a failing app doesn’t make money.
Slightly off-topic: I’ve had a few drones made by the Chinese company DJI. These products are solid, but the real surprise is they have the best customer service I have ever seen. They don’t try to stall you so that you give up. They are proactive, and they are tenacious. It took months, but they fixed a difficult issue with my account that was a result of bad database design. All my other issues have been handled quickly and to my satisfaction. Just really good support.
Steve LaBonne
@frosty: It’s so bad now that I find it hard to imagine what worse would be like. Clearly I will soon be confronted with the limits of my imagination.
tobie
@Melancholy Jaques: So true. Harris’s entire campaign was kitchen table issues like reducing the price of groceries, Rx drugs, healthcare and eldercase, reducing rents thru housing and apt bldg construction, credits for first time home buyers and new small businesses, raising wages, etc. How did the author of the article miss this?
TBone
@frosty: it’s always about numbers and
dollarsrubles.Harry
@rikyrah: I don’t think the US will elect a liberal woman in the next 100 years, if the US lasts that long. I’m not trying to be defeatist, I’m trying to avoid defeat.
The only woman who could win election in the US is a version of Margaret Thatcher, cursed be her name.
tobie
@The Audacity of Krope: And SCOTUS will now show us if they ever truly gave a damn about separation of powers or if that was just a convenient argument to limit the exec power of a Dem Pres.
Quinerly
I sure wish this was said and analyzed more often. Looks like Jolly has been saying this for over a year. Also, I would like to see some recent figures. Truly comprehending this is above my paygrade.
“For context, roughly 25% of our total national debt incurred over the last 230 years actually occurred during the 4 years of the Trump administration. That’s right. 25% of our entire national debt, all during the Trump years.” Former Rep. David Jolly (Republican, Florida)
https://www.deseret.com/u-s-world/2023/1/23/23564700/trump-administration-responsible-for-25-percent-of-national-debt/
Jackie
@tobie:
You know TCFG has treeemendous bargaining skilz. He’s expected to do a little wheeling and dealing; coupled with primary challenge threats to get his way with Congress.
TBone
@Harry: gtfoh with that. Mexico is gonna roll Donold.
Harry
@Anonymous At Work: State-owned companies are probably better that company-owned governments.
sab
I have a little jar where I save all the old allen wrenches. My husband scoffs, because he has a set of allen wrenches. But his never fit, and evey five years or so we need one of the old ones.
Thinking like that is why it took us three months to move a half mile. There was so much stuff to move or get rid of. We did have an allen wrench to fit every piece of furniture. (But afterwards I had to go buy a short-handled phillips screwdriver, because we had left behind the one inherited from Mom.)
Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony
@TBone: Any post on this site can be scraped pretty easily. You don’t need an account to access the posts, so its open to any scraping bot.
Soprano2
@TBone: Ugh, that will be a way to drive even more people off their platform.
Harry
I hate to see so much xenophobia and a lack of understanding of technology on a liberal blog.
TBone
@tobie: that is not even a question, in my mind. Of course it was about anointing a rethug monarchy.
TBone
@Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony: I’m talking about personal information and data. The kind Cambridge Analytica used. You have to provide a lot of identity info to open a social media account. They want your photo ID.
tobie
@Jackie: LOL. The Supremes are so partisan that they’ll like accept the idea too. GEENIOUS before the Constitution.
Anonymous At Work
Has anyone heard from Stephen Miller on TikTok or H1-B visa issues? He’s someone that is in tight with the actual power structures and is a rabid xenophobe, so seeing where he stands might be useful to gauge things.
Apologies for the Kremlinology but with this administration, that might be all we can tell.
Kay
@Harry:
I just have no earthly idea why Democrats are protecting Mark Zuckerberg. Who gives a shit if he doesn’t like competition? Why is that important?
TBone
@Soprano2: that’s part of why he’s repopulating with bots – ad purchasers need big numbers.
TBone
@Anonymous At Work: yep, keep an eye on the quiet ones, they’re the most dangerous.
Quinerly
@SW:
I have a 30 piece little kit of them from Amazon. Under $15.00.
Glory b
Hey, mistermix, if you aren’t sure if you’re being insulting or ageist, here’s an easy way to figure it out.
Take out the words “old,” “aged,” etc, & insert the word “black.”
So, if saying “…out of touch black person…” sounds bad, you should change your text.
Under the law, if you wouldn’t say it about a black, Hispanic, gay, etc, person, you shouldn’t say it about an older one either.
Why do you refuse to give older people the same recognition & measure of humanity you afford every other member of a protected class
Assuming older people are out of touch is no different than assuming black people aren’t as intelligent.
Stop it.
The Audacity of Krope
You should speak of people in a more respectful way. Tut-tut…
Omnes Omnibus
@TBone: The most recent account I opened was BlueSky. I had to do nothing of the kind.
Baud
@Omnes Omnibus: Some states now require porn sites to ask for photo ID.
p.a.
Fucker cop unions are teflon even under tRump/Heritage Foundation anti-union conditions: the local pols want their votes. It would be justice seeing them get smacked down. Not holding my breath.
Check out what your local gvt pays out in civil penalties because of them (dog knows it’s hard to get criminal convictions.)
randy khan
The issues about TikTok basically boil down to this: China has a long history of using Chinese companies to, put bluntly, attack other countries and make them vulnerable. Some go along cheerfully, happy to be helping their government, some reluctantly, but regardless they generally end up doing the government’s bidding because the alternatives are not pretty.
In the last ten years, across three Administrations, the U.S. has effectively banned communications network equipment made by Hauwei (which supplied a lot of rural phone companies because its equipment was cheap), telecommunications services provided by all of the major Chinese service providers, and networking and surveillance equipment made by several other Chinese companies. I know someone who was given briefings on Hauwei, and while he can’t say anything specific about them, he does say that the problems were real. By the way, the U.S. is not the only country to be confronting these issues, and a lot of other countries are taking similar steps.
TikTok, by virtue of what it does, ends up having access to a huge amount of data on American citizens, way more than any other foreign company. And while it’s not wrong to say this is a general problem with social media, the U.S. companies are, needless to say, not interested in sharing their data with other governments, while TikTok is a Chinese company under the aegis of the Chinese government and may not have any choice in the matter.
People say and do stupid things on social media all the time, including in the supposedly private message services that are part and parcel of those platforms. (To give you an idea of how not-private social media messaging is, Facebook lately has been offering to show me what it thinks are interesting conversations with friends of mine from previous years.) Giving a hostile government access to that information is inherently dangerous – and not just because of important people who are in the news. A non-com in the Army or Navy may have access to classified data and also be vulnerable to blackmail, or for that matter a tech at a power company could be blackmailed into inserting a virus into the system.
So what I’m saying is that we shouldn’t think the risk from TikTok is made up or exaggerated. It may even have been undersold. And, yeah, it would be a huge problem to cut off access to TikTok if January 19 comes without a resolution, but it’s also clearly part of TikTok’s strategy to call the government’s bluff and see if it can get away without having to be sold.
KatKapCC
@Glory b: In some cases this is applicable, but in others it’s much less so. It is simply a fact that there are more older folks with less understanding of the internet than younger folks. A person in their 80s was well into adulthood by the time the internet became something we all commonly used and by the time social media came into existence. Therefore, on average, because they didn’t grow up with it, it’s not going to be as relevant or graspable to them. And when people who, by virtue of the happenstance of their birth year, don’t have a full understanding of something technological want to pass laws about it, that can sometimes lead to poor outcomes. Recall the senator who was very confused as to how Facebook makes money when users don’t pay to access the site.
So saying that some older folks don’t understand technology is based in some reality for many of them. But to swap “old” for “Black” would indeed be ridiculous because there is nothing inherent in Blackness that makes someone less likely to understand the internet. To my reading, mistermix isn’t saying ALL old people lack technological understanding. But some of them do, and sometimes they make it painfully obvious.
Suzanne
@Melancholy Jaques:
Archive.ph, friend!
The Audacity of Krope
I’ve met, in my time, out-of touch, ossified 30 somethings and extremely with it 70 somethings.
Lack of curiosity and unwillingness to learn are what make someone out of touch, not age.
ETA: I’ve definitely seen an uptick in ageist argumentation in the last couple weeks. Might avowed age bigots have had a relatively recent victory that has emboldened them? Perhaps one frequently deemed to be a unique situation with no possible outside applications?
schrodingers_cat
@Glory b: Its okay to be ageist, nativist or antisemitic as long as you use leftist jargon in many liberal/leftist spaces including this one
These are just my observations.
p.a.
@Baud: bad news for Rev Mike Johnson
Jackie
As Sen. Whitehouse said… Who woulda thunk?
I don’t link to x.
Omnes Omnibus
@Baud: I will defer to your expertise.
Captain C
@tobie:
Willful blindness, just like the rest of the MSM and savvier-than-thou crowd.
Harry
@TBone: :)
I need to learn how to follow the threads here.
I agree on Mexico. They will give him a token but empty gesture and get on with it.
Steve LaBonne
@KatKapCC: Understanding the internet? A lot of people of all ages are clueless about the fact that they are the product, not the customer. Which is the thing that is most important to understand.
The Audacity of Krope
Initially read the last item as Vice President. From there, my imagination went wild.
sab
@comrade scotts agenda of rage: I am so old that I was politically awate and voting when Jimmy Carter was president, and I liked him even then. I even liked the malaise speech written by his speech-writer James Fallows (which was popular until the MSM got through with it.)
He didn’t change much. We just had to experience Reagan to appreciate him. Also serious anti-Southern snobbery. None of his folks went to prestigious northeatern schools.
Steve LaBonne
@Captain C: It couldn’t be that these upper middle class asshole pundits just like to babble and don’t have the first fucking idea what they’re talking about. Could it?
Harry
@Kay: Having experience a tech union, I don’t think they are viable. They don’t control the means of production.
NYT Tech Union that gave some members a de facto pay cut once labor dues are included, and gave the company the right to lay off people once the deal was signed. In return they got a weak mechanism to contest the sort of shadow-firings the NYT does, especially to non-white men, women, trans, etc. White men are safe as long as they don’t get uppity.
Kay
Its hysterical that with all the absolute garbage propaganda on the internet coming from God knows where the US decided we were being brainwashed by The Chinese on TikTok. Ooga booga.
They know Musk is currently campaigning for the Nazi party in Germany, right? And that Twitter is a fetid swamp of racism and sexism?
Captain C
@Steve LaBonne: I suspect it’s a combo of willful blindness and privileged idiots who like the sound of their own voice/look of their own writing and have no clue about the world outside their self-imposed bubble.
The Audacity of Krope
Good, old-fashioned ‘Murcan values right there.
Policy, in general, should cover behaviors, not individual specific entities. That’s why it’s called policy and not relationships.
Sure Lurkalot
OT, free access to AppleTV Jan-3 through Jan-5, some fine series (granted, my suggestions are mostly comedic…Ted Lasso, Loot, Palm Royale, Shrinking…but also For All Mankind, Disclaimer, Severance, Slow Horses.
Harry
@Baud: remember when the plan was to sell TikTok to Steve Munchkin (or whatever his name is). That scares me.
Harry
@Earl: (mock disdain) Obviously, you are a communist.
edit: but seriously, China is more open to competition than Apple.
Suzanne
@UncleEbeneezer: If you read the piece, Lowrey points this out:
I might think a lot of this is bullshit — and I do — but we lost a lot of voters who used to be on our side.
Juju
@rikyrah: Or the stupid people who thought she had this, because Trump is an idiot. I have heard a few of those people complain in my neck of the woods. Idiots.
Glory b
@KatKapCC: And all young people do?
Besides, this isn’t the only time he speaks derisively about older people.
It’s a feature of his commentary and it’s dismissive and insulting.
Kay
@Harry:
That’s interesting. My son works in tech in Denmark and they’re required to join the union – even the expat VISA holders, like him.
Denmark is much more restrictive than the US on immigration but they take much better care of workers, whether they’re Danish or not.
Unions work best in construction trades. From a contractor’s perspective he or she can basically pull a skilled trade workforce off a shelf and then out them back until they’re next needed. The unions cover their health care, retirement and various injury protections, etc. In that sector it just works beautifully.
Harry
@Kay:
I’m confused, are you talking about Bluesky or Balloon Juice? 🤣
Harry
@comrade scotts agenda of rage: CNN and Reagan were the beginning of the end for America.
Kay
@Harry:
Bluesky. Mostly.
Its almost STAID. That makes me nervous, like I might break something :)
Harry
@randy khan:
Could you give me a for-instance?
Motivated Seller
Suggestion: tape the Allen wrench directly to the door (like on the very top surface or some other inconspicuous place). Then paint tape the same color as the door for extra camouflage. Then the next time you or someone else is called to fix the door, point out this secret location, and you will never be without a way to service the doorknob.
Bill Arnold
@TBone:
I’ve not every used facebook/meta.
Twitter required a phone number that could be sent a text message, and an email account.
Bluesky just required an email account.
(Anonymity is possible for both, with discipline.)
Harry
@The Audacity of Krope:
I’m pretty sure I recall one recent instance.
Ageism (#both-sides) is embedded in this culture.
Omnes Omnibus
@Harry: A lot of people use both. Why choose?
Harry
@Kay: 100-percent agree. Why ever protect any billionaire? so-stupid.
The only reason Bluesky gives me hope is that they are non-profit. They are going to need some revenue to pay their small team and to keep the servers going. I would donate if they let me.
Kay
My middle son is wiring an expansion to the Honda plant in Marysville (OH). He’s working for a Japanese contractor – not Japanese American, a contractor they brought in from Japan. He’s enjoying it, says the approach is very different but he is AMUSED at how much they love the Ford F150.
So F150 is a universal language
The Audacity of Krope
@Harry: Ageism is damn near as acceptable as Islamophobia and trans-panic.
Glory b
@The Audacity of Krope: It reminds me of the late John Lewis being escorted off an Occupy Wall Street encampment because he was an old guy who had nothing to offer them.
Kay
@Harry:
Nonprofit! Are they? That’s neat. I’ll have to give them a chance.
Suzanne
@Kay:
The construction trades are really, really white and male.
And these appear to be the unions who didn’t stick with the Dems.
I agree that it works well for this industry, but it kills me that they turned their backs on the Dems. As I noted on the previous thread….. this is pick-me behavior.
Bill Arnold
@randy khan:
Social media companies that operate in other countries generally cooperate with “law enforcement” in those countries, e.,g. “give us all the metadata for accounts X,Y,Z”.
Harry
@Captain C: I see a lot of wilful ignorance, but then there is this from the failing NYT:
This is either hallucination on a grand scale or outright propaganda. It’s not written by AI but it didn’t use Actual Intelligence either. And people wonder why I hate my former employer so much.
rikyrah
@sab:
I don’t even know why ,but, this made me smile :)
Harry
@Omnes Omnibus: I’m trying to use both.
rikyrah
@Anonymous At Work:
Actually, I haven’t..
But, since he’s a White Supremacist…and, he’s actually pushing for DE-NATURALIZATION…
He doesn’t want anyone non-White in this country.
TBone
@Omnes Omnibus: I was referring to Fascistbook, mostly. That’s why we all love BlueSky, right? And BJ!
The Audacity of Krope
Is that real? Face so deep in palm.
rikyrah
@p.a.:
I already know, Dear.
I already know.
And, it’s the thing that actually pisses me off as a taxpayer.
Paying for settlements in cases of police abuse…
of someone who more than likely looks like me.
Harry
@KatKapCC: look dude
I am the original digital native, and I’m 58.
Maybe if your talking about the ancient, but otherwise this is bullshit.
TBone
@Steve LaBonne: 🎯 not enough non-existent upvotes!
rikyrah
@Kay:
The Chinese were used at the excuse.
The law actually passed because of all the on-the-ground videos that were getting out from Gaza, dispelling the Israeli lies about what was going on there
TBone
@Kay: that seems dangerously close to whataboutism.
ETA I’m not in favor of garbage no matter where it comes from but there were reasons TikTok was singled out (data collection of unaware yute).
Geminid
That is incorrect.
The link is to a tabulation of votes on the bill dicuseed. It showed 58 Nay votes, 25 Republican and 33 Democratic.
There are 95 Democrats in the Progressive Caucus, so even if every Democratic Nay vote was cast by a Progressive Caucus member only a little more than a third of the caucus voted against the TikTok ban.
Harry
@Kay:
I don’t think the union had to be mediocre. It was a series of mistakes. The writer’s union is strong and effective. The tech union is an offshoot of that union, even though they aren’t similar jobs at all. Writers can walk off the job and shut the paper down. Tech workers can walk off the job and the site runs fine for 3 months, partly because the tech workers do a good job of building resilient systems.
I’m working on my essays about the times. Trump is right about them failing. They fail to do journalism. And I can’t wait till the next earnings call because their number one business threat is “editorial cancels”, a term for pissed-off subscribers who stop giving money to the enemy.
Glory b
@rikyrah: Last time I saw anything from him he was on Twitter thanking Muslims in Michigan for Trump’s win there.
BUT, as I said before, they were already trending back towards the Republican party before 10/7, based on their shared animosity towards LGBTQ people.
They accompanied QAnon & Libs of Tik Tok supporters disrupting school board meetings & yelling at teachers, so maybe he meant it.
Harry
@Kay: I throw bombs there too, but I try to be reasonable. Partly because I think the left needs to stand solid on its principles, but completely re-learn how to communicate. Shaming people doesn’t get them to see your point-of-view. Lasting progress takes a really long time. There are no quick fixes or shortcuts. And we need at least 55% of the public to like us (or at least tolerate us) in order to win at all.
Harry
@Suzanne: Most unions outside of Teamsters and fake unions like the police supported Biden publicly because he was the best union president ever. I don’t know how actual members voted. I would need to see a breakdown by union, and not an overall union number to make any sense of it.
But you are right about the racism. It doesn’t have to be that way, but it seems to be built in to the system somehow. Black and white union members share a lot of common cause. I think the problem is that unions were coming of age in the 1920’s and 1930’s and it is hard to change once it takes root.
Kay
@Suzanne:
Right. My interest in unions and labor is broader than the Democratic Party. I’m interested in them as a non government regulatory system for workers. People like to bash them but unions and guilds are ancient and no one has ever come up with a better alternative for hourly workers. Everyone says they will, then they just “invent” a really weak and useless version of a labor union.
Looking at unions nationally in a political function is not useful, I don’t think. Unions are effective for Democrats in specific situations and locations, so I’ll look at them like “the teachers unions in Kentucky won that for Beshear” or, “the UAW and the IBEW held Marcy Kapturs seat”
Omnes Omnibus
@Kay: Follow some of the Furries and Trans people. It can get quite spicy.
Suzanne
@Harry: So I live in Pittsburgh, and obviously construction unions are a big force here. I am also looking for more data on this (I am sure that Pew data will have more next year), but it appears that much of the rank-and-file of construction unions is defecting.
In this part of the PGH area, the wealthier suburbs like Mt. Lebanon and Upper St. Clair actually got more blue. Those are super-college-educated-white municipalities. But places like Clairton got redder.
Harry
@TBone: That is dangerously wrong
Citizen Alan
@A Ghost to Most: i’m still angry that.It is effectively impossible to delete my twitter account even though I can’t use it. I was permanently suspended years ago for hurting some maga’s feelings, and deleting your account entirely is one of those things that you’re not allowed to do while suspended.
comrade scotts agenda of rage
@schrodingers_cat:
You and I have been butting heads on H1B visas but we also each have a laser focus on what you just said and I’m always glad when you bring it up.
Now, it might be on different policy topics but the basic messaging stragety is there: promote decidedly racially tone-deaf, anti-progressive policies or attitudes but wrap them in faux progressive language. And when called out on it, retreat into the “stop being so pure” trope. JFC, we spent how many years digging ourselves out of the Blue Dog era only to be told by their “intellectual” successors to STFU and let them peddle their nonsense indiscriminately again.
These same people proclaim their progressiveness and yet embrace libertarian capitalism along with its ageism, racism and classism.
Suzanne
@Kay: I agree with you.
I think we go wrong a lot, though, in assuming that delivery politics is how anything works. We deliver for unions, Joe walks a picket line….. and many members shifted rightward anyway. And why? Because of the “clinging to high-status identity” phenomenon described this morning.
Mr. Suzanne is a teacher’s union member. It frustrates me how many of his colleagues still vote GOP! What the ever-loving fuck?!
Harry
@Suzanne: Part of this is that Dems pay lip service to blue collar workers.
I respect AOC’s values, but her pushing for and Biden pushing for “student debt reduction” was the biggest fuck you to blue-collar people you could imagine. It was welfare for the well-to-do. If a family can get their kid into college, they are a lot better off than many.
As someone with two degrees, I think college is oversold. They seem to exist to rake in money to grow the corrupt administration. Technical skills like engineering, science, and medicine need college. But the world needs plumbers and electricians and massage therapists (did I already post about this?) as much as it needs college grads, and more importantly, there are people who work in those fields that need jobs too.
Citizen Alan
I’m kind of agnostic on banning tiktok myself, but this specific example seems to mmeto be less about the danger of tiktok and more about tiktok just being another mechanism for shitty parents to parent shittily.
Harry
@Citizen Alan:
I took out my original comment because I agree with you. If adults stop being on their phones every waking moment, unable to have a conversation without checking them, then the kids will follow.
I don’t even understand why kids have phones at all. Sure, some sort of communication device is nice, but a smartphone is too much.
comrade scotts agenda of rage
@Kay:
They’ve shown to work well there, sure, but let’s not forget how unions have performed outside of the trades, teachers unions and the SEIU come to mind as others. Hell, if it weren’t for teachers unions, I’d shudder to think of the state our current public education system.
I always tell anybody that if you want to see how the right (and it’s enablers like Atlantic writers) portray unions, just look at what the US Chamber of Commerce says about various unions.
As you said above:
Anybody who suggests “abandoning labor” and then says they’re progressive is unserious about promoting a liberal agenda.
Harry
@comrade scotts agenda of rage: Amen. Unions work when the Union can shut down the “production line”. And this very much includes teachers unions because they produce bright young minds.
The Audacity of Krope
Blue collar people don’t want and can’t benefit from any fancy book learnin’. Amirite?
TBone
@Harry: that was the excuse given at the beginning of this fiasco by RWNJ & other politicians. I didn’t say I agree with it, just that it was singled out for that reason.
I should have been clear about that.
Citizen Alan
@Suzanne: it doesn’t matter what policies we have if the media refuses to acknowledge the existence of those policies and instead insists that we don’t have any any policies at all.
laura
I grew up in a union household, every job I ever had was a union job. I spent my last 20 working years as a union business agent; first state employers, then classified (non-teaching) school employees and finally, representing members on the public sector side of a traditional craft union- blue collar and predominantly male. The first two unions were very much a “we’re all in it together” and the last very much a well paid, extremely well benefitted group of skilled and highly skilled apprenticed workforce. The racism and the misogyny was and remains so blatant. So much so that the international union polled the membership in 2016 and the results were such that the international and my local would not not endorse either Hillary Clinton, Joe Biden and presumably Kamala Harris. It’s the racism that they cling to. Messaging did not work. Our Members loved trump because of his awfulness not in spite of it. They tolerated me and the few other female agents because of our diligence, but just barely. They could not care less about any kind of messaging about democratic policies, they wanted truck nuts, stars & bars, racism, misogyny, homophobia and if stroking that raging hate boner came at a personal cost, or cost the bargaining unit, that was A Okay with the super majority.
Suzanne
@Harry:
I will note that many of us do not come from families who could financially help us with college at all. I will also point out that the GOP has cut back funding at America’s public universities over the decades by staggering percentages. Here in PA, taxpayers pay less than 10% of the cost of attendance at state-related universities. It’s similar in other states. I believe that very-low-cost college education is a social good and a necessary investment in a productive workforce.
I will also note that, quite frankly, if someone is salty about student loan forgiveness and they perceive it as a handout, they can get bent. The amount of farm subsidies, forgiven PPP loans, and all manner of money given out to red states doesn’t drive me to vote for the GOP.
Harry
@The Audacity of Krope: where was the blue-collar equivalent.
You don’t need college to read a book. A library card is enough and a hell of a lot cheaper.
Harry
@TBone: my apologies if I misinterpreted. I learned I have had walking pneumonia for a week today, and I can be loopy.
TBone
@Suzanne: hear, hear!
Suzanne
@Harry: Good Lord. College is about a lot more than just reading books. Everyone should be able to go, if they want to.
TBone
@Harry: oh dang, best hopes to you for recovery ASAP!
Jackie
@rikyrah:
I know why it made me smile: Dad/grandpa offering his assortment of motley tools to my husband or adult children – who often poo-pooed the offers, insisting they had their own tools…. Just to ask for another look at the proffered tools – and way more often than not, finding the needed one.
Citizen Alan
@The Audacity of Krope: my RWNJ sister, a retired teacher with a master’s degree, was literally shaking in anger at the thought of student loan relief, because she had to pay back all of her student loans herself back in the nineties. She told me once that opposition to student loan relief and opposition to immigration reform were the only two issues she cared about. (Of course, she also told me that she thinks michelle obama is a man, which was the last time I had anything resembling a civil conversation with her.)
TBone
@Harry: you DO need the guidance of a knowledgeable professor to get the most out of those books though – sometimes, to get anything out of them.
I had a convo with a barely literate teen who was reading the Art of War on his own. FACEPALM CITY
Harry
@Suzanne: I will note that I am incredibly lucky to have been raised by a hard-working Union West Virginian man and a hard-working mom as well. And then I got a scholarship here and there.
Note that I said if a family (or even a community) can get someone into school, that student is better off than most. I never said anything about people who work their way through college, which I would imagine would be incredibly tough to do. Those folks have all my admiration. I slung pizzas for two years when I had to take a break from school, but even then I had advantages.
I am sorry that you don’t have any basic understanding of reality, people, politics, or society. That must be tough. You have my pity.
The Audacity of Krope
@Harry: Instruction matters. Having peers to discuss ideas and fill little niches of misunderstanding matters.
I honestly view humans’ ability to share information and learn from each other as the primary driver of our success.
People should have access to educational resources whenever they want or need. And people who don’t know what they don’t know benefit from instruction.
The notion that we’re ever done learning is foolish. And denying access to learning for adults; whether trade, higher learning, or even remediate learning; effectively hardens class structure.
Knowledge is not a privilege for the rich, access to formal education settings should not be either.
The simple fact of the matter is we should be providing edifying opportunities for adults of all sorts. University and trade school for sure. But more paid apprenticeships, unions maintaining a corp of capable workers for their ability to work rather than attached to and easily disposed by one company. Loads of things.
To do otherwise hardens class divides. They don’t want us educated because they don’t want us competing with them.
comrade scotts agenda of rage
@Citizen Alan:
IGMFY in a nutshell on the loan forgiveness.
As for immigration, sheesh, she was worried that some poor person from Guatemala was gonna come and take away her job? Oi vey.
TBone
@The Audacity of Krope: Bucknell has
The Institute for Lifelong Learning
No papers due, no exams, just learning and growing at any age.
The Audacity of Krope
Those are the people with the loans. One doesn’t work their way through school anymore. Pulling 40 hour weeks to barely pay your loan premium and maintain a car while also trying to maintain a reasonable course load just leads to burnout and more capable people giving up on the whole endeavor.
Harry
@Suzanne: absolutely not. Learning is available anywhere. And in fact, I would be fine if we considered the costs of trade schools and even some of the less-reputable schools (if their graduates have good permanent employment.) There have been token (but unworkable) attempts to do this in some proposals
Everyone benefits from experiencing people with different backgrounds and views. But society can fill that need.
The Audacity of Krope
@TBone: I’ll check it out. Most appreciated.
TBone
@Harry: nope, that’s not how any of this works IRL – the part about society filling that need, I mean.
TBone
@The Audacity of Krope: FYI some years’ offerings are better than others but the concept of it just being there for everyone is simply fabulous.
Suzanne
@Harry: Oh, I understand that tons of people are crabs in a motherfucken bucket.
But I will note that I vote for their interests each and every goddamn time. I support the Dems, and pretty much everything the construction unions say they support. I have their backs. Every election cycle. Because I’m ultimately not a total asshole. I don’t need to accept asshole behavior. This is a coalition. They don’t want to vote for Dems because we helped out students once? Okay then. Leopards, faces, etc. They chose it, I didn’t.
As Kay notes, we should stop thinking of labor unions as a cohort as being influential on our political agenda. Specific unions that do the work and hang together on a specific issue, yes, cool. But “Labor” as a Democratic-voting cohort, no.
Baud
I don’t think we should abandon labor, but we shouldn’t tolerate people who accuse us of abandoning labor because we can’t convince more of labor to vote for labor.
Soprano2
@KatKapCC: My husband is one of those people. He’s said for a long time that I’m his “search engine”. People ask for his e-mail, I tell them he doesn’t have one although technically that’s not true because I had to set up one when I got him an IPad. It’s not wrong to say that some older people don’t have a good grasp of tech. Shoot, how many younger people actually understand the ins and outs of how computer technology works or problems that might be inherent in it?
Omnes Omnibus
@Harry: Jesus Fucking Christ.
Suzanne
@Harry: Hard disagree. University education is about much more than reading books. I mean, maybe you never had a well-orchestrated classroom discussion or studio session, or went to office hours, or worked in a laboratory…. Or well, anything?
The Audacity of Krope
@Citizen Alan: Sorry for your strained relationship with your sister. Nothing to add, save that what you describe is perfectly consistent with your description of her as a RWNJ.
comrade scotts agenda of rage
@The Audacity of Krope:
Totally agree with all of this. But we’ll have people point out how “white dudes of a certain age” don’t wanna avail themselves of that. Now, the people saying that don’t have any actual data to indicate if those “white dudes” are statistically significant.
What I do know is the state technical college back in Misery was in the nearest town of any size to us (1300 people!) and for years was the go-to place for “white dudes” to get a 2-year degree but more importantly, a start in a trade.
What’s happened in the last 8 years there is a *massive* expansion of the program. They’ve broken new enrollments in those 8 years. In 2024, enrollment was 2400+. My wife taught math there for a couple of years back in the late 90s as a part-timer. A good friend was a full-time teacher there until he passed away 5 years ago. We know the student body.
And they basically match the inference of “white dudes of a certain age” being politically conservative but all of them are there to get the education they need to go out and work.
I now wonder how many of those students over the last 20 years had student loans of any size (probably not to the extent of what’s happened at the Enormous State University level) and if they got any loan relief.
Harry
@TBone: No disagreement there.
I guess I went too far. I’m saying that there are many people who can hold good jobs with or without college degrees. I’m not saying college is useless, I’m saying that degrees are overrated, I think.
There should be a law outlawing jobs from requiring degrees from most jobs. It’s a form of racism and classism.
I loved being an undergraduate, and if I could have made money that way, I would want to do it forever. Unfortunately, I went to grad school and I saw that the emperor had on skimpy undergarments.
I had a very successful career that was only tangentially related to my 8 years of schooling. I know tons of other people in this boat as well. I worked in web development, and I know tons of folks without degrees who can do that. A bootcamp is sufficient for that work.
Part of the reason I am skeptical of degrees is exactly because of the problems mentioned here. Rebub (and Dem) state governments raided their budgets. Then the bloated administrators made it all about themselves–see LGM if you want some horror stories on that.
I was so incredibly privileged to have all the advantages I had when I grew up, and college education was absolutely important for a lot of people back then. No argument. But in today’s world, college degrees are less relevant for so many reasons. Community colleges are great. Even colleges can be great if they are not too corrupt.
But wanting people to have a piece of paper that signifies they spent this amount of time studying something is downright wrong, and it hurts a ton of people.
The Audacity of Krope
Agreed. And definitely intrigued.
People still often need help knowing:
So we have schools.
Harry
@The Audacity of Krope: Schools are great. Books are great. Libraries are great. Teachers are great. Even the damn internet can be great. But learning exists with or without those formal structures.
emjayay
@@mistermix.bsky.social: “Trump is magik. Must delay for arrival in DC.
UGH I HATE COMMENTING SYSTEMS THAT PUT A REPLY 200 COMMENTS BELOW THE ONE BEING COMMENTED ON.
Suzanne
@Harry: No offense, but websites, if they fail, don’t typically kill people. That’s not the case in many other professions.
We are facing generational shortages of highly skilled workers in healthcare (physicians, nurses, other specialized staff), many engineering disciplines, architecture (my field), airline pilots, and a lot more. We need to invest in creating those people. And they need degrees, they need a wide knowledge base. And if those people fail, other people die. We’re not sending them to coding camp. FFS.
The Audacity of Krope
I don’t want to avail myself of services provided by the RMV. Doesn’t mean I think we should get rid of it or eliminate its public funding.
This raises an excellent point. There should be a lot more encouragement of students to go to community colleges. Many provide a fine education at a cost one can actually work to pay. Particularly for undergrad where a lot of what one needs to learn is the same no matter where you go.
Aspirations to elite universities by high school students are pretty much uniformly misguided.
Citizen Alan
@comrade scotts agenda of rage: Hardly. She was and is just in that demographic niche of white Americans who wake up one day, notice that a plurality of restaurants in her town are Mexican places, and freak out over it.
Another Scott
@Harry:
Popehat haz a sad.
Best wishes,
Scott.
Harry
After this election, I started wondering why it seemed surprising we lost. Of course, the election was really decided by the corrupt media working on with framework set up by corrupt founding fathers.
But democrats need to take a hard look at themselves and ask ourselves about our unforced errors.
I don’t have the answers, but I suspect some of our assumptions are part of the problem.
The only way I know to figure this out is to talk about it, with many different people. Even republicans, just not the kinds you find online. The MAGAts are a far smaller part of the country than they appear. A lot of people don’t trust democrats to actually be able to implement something useful that doesn’t involve an enormous bureaucracy that separates people from the useful benefits of government.
If we appeal only to our base, we lose. The game is rigged and, given that we are a first-world country, the conservative base is bigger than the liberal base.
The internet is a hot form of communication, and it’s easier to turn up the heat than to keep things calm. And we all should have a point of view. I just hope we can figure out how to win.
I should get offline for today (though I’ll probably fail). Thank you all for the illuminating discussion. I could use a lessons in better communication for sure, and I think I got one here today.
TBone
@Harry: We agree there, very much. In fact, I don’t have a degree, I was so dumb and young I thought it a good idea to marry my high school sweetheart and help him get his business up and running. Didn’t even end up married hahahaha!
Kayla Rudbek
@Suzanne:
@Harry: “you don’t get partial credit if the bridge falls down” was the phrase common in the College of Engineering back when I was in college in the 1990s. And all the jokes about how if civil and mechanical engineers built things like software engineers built programs, the first woodpecker that showed up would destroy civilization.
rikyrah
@Harry:
I am Black. I don’t have a trust fund. I am a woman.
My grandmother had her Masters degree by the time she married….. before 1910.
She, and her sisters were all educated, because my Great-Grandfather – a former slave- said that the only children his daughters would take care of – WERE THEIR OWN.
They were not going to wind up Mammies in some White woman’s house.
My grandmother had 4 daughters.
ALL were college educated BEFORE Brown vs. Board. Two with Masters degrees. (The other two got them post-Brown.)
I say this…
You can call trade school until the cows come home. And, I understand that college might not be for everyone..
But, education is the way that I can get into the door. It’s the way I have gotten into every door that I’ve knocked on during my career.
It’s not lost on me that once non-Whites started using those degrees to knock down those doors, suddenly ‘ college degrees aren’t worth much. ‘
Llelldorin
@Kayla Rudbek: To be fair, there’s coding and coding. Avionics software was generally not coded the same way that, say, a game would be.
That’s a bit different from, say, civil engineering — there aren’t really any public-use structures where it’s acceptable to have a few percent failure rate.
Now that general-use computers are getting better much more slowly than they once did, software engineering is moving in the direction of more traditional engineering fields—your code is likely to have a much longer use-cycle than in the ’80s, so the expected quality is significantly higher.
WTFGhost
One of the reasons Tiktok is considered dangerous is the amount of information it gathers on app users – not propaganda. Many in the US feel if that information was in Chine, it would be a national security risk.
But it can’t possibly be a *domestic* security risk, eh? And it’s not like data brokers would sell to someone who is *totally* not going to sell it to China, who will then launder the data and sell it anyway, amirite?
Actual privacy protections, with teeth, and real security requirements, would probably be better and more effective than divestment.
WTFGhost
@Jackie: It’s a nice bit to say, but, if you read it one way, it says “He didn’t care about America as much as he did about sunday schoolin’.”
I don’t say this to crap over a decent sentiment – though I’m sure it’s too late for that! – but just because I know how people throw in a left-handed compliment, and I know how *easy* it is to avoid such things. That’s now how a reluctant admirer, or even an elder politician, says “thank you” to a former President.
YY_Sima Qian
I don’t use TikTok or Douyin (TikTok’s counterpart for the PRC market, also owned by ByteDance), far too easy to get sucked in. However, the entire TikTok ban saga is a good example of how broken & deranged policymaking in the US has become (& that includes at many of the Ds in Congress).
Focusing on the owner’s place of domicile rather regulating the modes of operations of the platforms is ass backward. Russia influenced the 2016 US elections, the Brexit vote, & has continued to influence elections across Europe w/o ever owning Facebook. It & other malicious actors are exploiting the nature of social media & the amoral/cynical/greedy ways the social media platforms operate. The PRC MSS has mounted highly successful & highly damaging hacks (Volt Typhoon & Salt Typhoon) into US networks through infrastructure that do not contain hardware made by Chinese firms or systems operated by Chinese firms. They are exploiting the vulnerabilities of obsolete & poorly updated Cisco routers, & terrible cybersecurity practices of US network operators.
This is before we consider how the domestic reactionaries are exploiting the various social media platforms, as well as the mass media platforms they own, to influence popular opinion at home & abroad. Which platform is a greater threat to liberal democracy in the US right now? TikTok owned by ByteDance, or X owned by Musk?
Instead of regulating data privacy & monetization practices of all social media platforms, & instead of investing to upgrade US network infrastructure & regulating the cybersecurity practices of US network providers, USG has instead opted for the performance acts of banning Huawei & ZTE hardware, & now banning TikTok (w/ Temu & Shine sure to follow).
After the original Trump ban was struck down by US courts, the effort to ban TikTok languished in Congress for years. It suddenly regained momentum in the aftermath of 10/7/23 Hamas pogrom in Israel, & the following Israeli war of vengeance against all of Gaza. Politicians across the aisle were outraged that TikTok was the only platform where pro-Palestinian voices had a clear majority. (& yes, w/ plenty of anti-Semitism mixed in, though that is hardly unique to TikTok.) Some of the Dem Reps & Senators publicly admitted that their voting “Yay” were motivated by the disquieting [to them] Israel-Palestine discourse on TikTok. That kind of sentiment goes against key tenets of liberalism as professed by these politicians, & ought to have been scandalous in a liberal democracy, but attracted virtually no attention.
Jacob Helberg was the one who spearheaded the renewed effort to ban TikTok, is a senior advisor to the CEO of Palantir (owned by Peter Thiel), one of the new breed of MIC oriented Big Tech firms & a locus in SV for reactionary/libertarian TechBros. He has been a commissioner of the Congressional US-China Economic & Security Review Commission, & has had the respect of the D members on the Commission & the House Select Committee on Strategic Competition between the US & the CCP, who apparently are just fine w/ his associations.
Trump’s original ban & the current maneuvering have transparently corrupt motives. He originally tried to engineer the sale of TikTok to Oracle. He is probably now swayed by Jeff Yass, whose SIG investment firm owns 15% of ByteDance, & he is probably still trying to engineer a sale to Oracle or some other right wing corporation, & get his cut. Yass is one of the key donors to Repubs & reactionary causes. I actually think a TikTok owned by Larry Ellison, Mark Zuckerberg, Elon Musk, Jeff Yass, or Steve Mnuchin, or a combination thereof, will be more deleterious to liberal democracy in the US than one owned by ByteDance.
But, Big Tech has as great a hold of a majority of D politicians as it does on Rs, a majority of D politicians are as much in the grips of moral panic wrt the PRC as Rs, & many D politicians are forever frightened of being wedged by the reactionaries for being “soft on defense” (or “soft on crime”). So here we are.
& no, I do not expect that ByteDance will be willing or able to divest TikTok, at least not a TikTok that will be valuable to potential buyers. TikTok‘s recommendation algorithm are is related to that of Douyin, & the PRC government has explicitly stated that such algorithms are under export control.
Harry
@Suzanne: I am sorry you missed out on education and never learned how to read at all. but there is no reason to dump your shit everywhere.
Thanks for confirming this place is still filled with toxic people who want liberals to lose every election ever.
I’m out
K-Mo
Harry,
Thanks for engaging earnestly here. I am catching up late on the conversation, and I appreciate your thoughts. My $.02:
Agree that many colleges are inefficient at serving society’s needs. Not sure what the solution is but wider use of e-courses is one promising avenue. A lot of people at the bottom of the college quality spectrum are spending too much money for too little return even if, on average, the return is great.
However, your solution of outlawing the use of college credentials in hiring is a bad one IMO. Employers use these credentials (and details like GPA, classes taken, etc) as an important signal to identify the best people to hire. By and large they are not gatekeeping – they are trying to solve a difficult problem. Is it perfect? No, but it’s better than the alternatives. In particular, it *decreases* the market’s tendency towards racist and classist outcomes. Take RickRah’s message to heart. Occupational licensing- another story in many fields…
Overall, I agree with those who think the government should invest more, not less in college education. The return is great on average despite the problems you note. Even more so elementary and secondary education, and even more so pre K.
Gemini
@Harry: I would not extrapolate from the reactions of a coulple commenters that this place is full of anything, except maybe hot air or, “balloon juice.” Most commenters on a thread don’t even weigh in on particular arguments.
I would add that my own experience as a new commenter– and I’m guessing you are new– is that the newbies get picked on in a way they don’t after they’ve been around a while. I went from “Who is this Geminid! And what is he up to!!!” to a less hostile, “Sheesh, here comes that asshole again” in just a few months.