In today’s member newsletter, TPM’s Josh Marshall identifies three factions in the Trump admin that are currently cooperating to destroy common enemies within the U.S. government and the differences in their motivations and aims. Here’s a gift link to the whole piece. Here’s Marshall’s overview of the three groups (in list format for easier reading):
- First, you have MAGA, which wants to punish and displace the people who made life hard for Trump in his first term and replace them with loyalists. That’s mostly about power and personal fealty to Trump. Ideology is mostly secondary to the core aim.
- Second, you have Christian nationalists who want to seize the power of the state to execute a top down re-traditionalization of American society and culture. Russell Vought is key to this group. The basic theory goes back into the aughts, when a faction of conservatives decided (essentially a counsel of despair) that they had lost control of American culture and that state power was required to get it back.
- Third are people like Elon Musk who want to radically hollow out the government, outsource its functions and replace many of those functions with novel technologies — AI, cryptocurrency, etc. This is a mix of Silicon Valley “move fast and break things” business culture combined with “dark enlightenment” Yarvinian degenerate thought.
Marshall points out that the groups’ short-term aims overlap right now; they all want to gut the federal workforce and replace career government service people for reasons. But their long-term goals aren’t 100% overlapping, and at some point, conflict is likely to emerge.
I think the groups outlined above roughly correspond to groups of voters and lower-level politicians. There’s 1) cult of personality members whose ideological allegiance and voter propensity are strongly linked to Trump, 2) culture war-obsessed evangelicals who want to spread patriarchal white nationalist propaganda instead of teaching history, stuff queer people in the closet and herd women into the kitchen, and 3) very online, wannabe edge lord types like the kinderchud Musk recruited to bust into Treasury.
What I am wondering as a political opponent of all three types: where are the seams in that coalition into which a saboteur might insert a crowbar? How can a person sow distrust and doubt on a personal level if we encounter people in any of those groups?
I’m thinking faction #1 might grow annoyed with Musk for overshadowing Trump. Factions #1 and #2 might resent faction #3 for gaining access to their private data and be (rightly!) suspicious about their intentions. Stuff like that.
Any thoughts? Our coalition does a great job of ripping itself to shreds in the face of adversity, and maybe theirs will too when challenges inevitably arise. But if there’s an opportunity to help that along, I don’t want to miss it!
Otherwise, open thread!
Frank Wilhoit
The thing that holds the coalition together is the demand for unaccountability. I do not know how to counteract that, but eventually some crucial insight will follow from understanding it, as distinct from other explanations.
Steve LaBonne
I also think a useful proportion of faction 1 will fall away when Trump leaves the scene. We already know there is a substantial bloc of voters that shows up only when he is personally on the ballot.
Motivated Seller
I think group number 1 and 2 will become increasingly resentful as it sinks in that number 3 is now fat-cat rich, since from their perspective number 1 and 2 did all the work. This is already a bit exposed as Musk rightly gets criticized for taking credit for other people’s ingenuity.
wenchacha
@Steve LaBonne: I hope you’re right. When he is finally gone, somebody will try to fill that vacuum. And his cultists will be hungry for a leader.
artem1s
the grifter component is where the real divisions are going to occur. every one of these factions are in it for profit in some way. MAGA voters are expecting promises to be fulfilled – they want cheap food, housing, slave labor, immigrants gone, etc. They If those infrastructure jobs/contracts go away, that’s an opportunity to foment discord. fundies are already resenting the money donated to campaigns. they worked hard to get vouchers in place so they could steal tax payer dollars away from public schools. Shutting down the DoE eventually mean no more vouchers.
TCF resents anyone who is skimming off the top without giving him a taste. or if anyone is profiting at all that isn’t him. This is where I believe eventually Soutpiel and DOGE will run afoul of him and the MAGAs. If they screw with the Treasury, fire all the federal workers, and suspend payments to everyone they hate, eventually someone’s going to ask where all the money went that DOGE was supposed to ‘save’.
comrade scotts agenda of rage
Ask them if they know anybody, friend or family, that works not only for the feds but perhaps state and local gubmint. Particularly at the state/local level, you can make them see connections about fidelity, repsonsibility, work ethic, because they’ll know that person.
All they need to know is one person who works in the public sector and assuming they know what they do, like the person, etc., there’s your personal level encounter to maybe make your target start to think a little bit deeper about what’s going on.
Suzanne
There was an interesting episode of Ezra Klein’s podcast a week or so ago called “MAGA’s Big Tech Divide“. Ezra is…. whatever, as meh as always….. but his guest, James Hogue, was really illuminating about some of the philosophy and goals that animate some of them. I have noted before that I am terrified of JD Vance, and Curtis Yarvin, and Peter Thiel, and Marc Andreesen, and the extreme right-wing Catholic postnationalist neomonarchy they plan for us all.
But that makes me think that religion and its role in public life might be one of those ways to splinter them. Some of them are deeply religious, but a significant minority of them are not, and don’t really want to be beholden to religious strictures.
FWIW, I think this is a huge fault line on our side, as well. There’s still a lot of pretty socially conservative people in our coalition and it makes our alliance deeply uneasy.
jimmiraybob
4) White supremacist and anti liberal-government groups and their paramilitary wings. Oh yeah, also too, the constitutional sheriffs groups. All of which include a significant portion of law enforcement and military (active and not).
Speaking of ex military, I think that it is appropriate to have a moment of reflection for the hundreds of men, women and children that were murdered in OK City by Timothy McVeigh and accomplices who were MAGA before MAGA was cool.
Suzanne
@Motivated Seller: Musk being a cheater at video games is one of those small details that nonetheless has caused a fair amount of damage to his reputation.
The Unmitigated Gaul
“We live in an era of tremendous and profound cowardice. Just shocking cowardice.”
From a review of a book about the widow of murdered Civil Rights campaigner, Medgar Evers.
Leto
Can’t wait for this same argument from downstairs to be brought here.
NeenerNeener
@Steve LaBonne: Yep. If Trump strokes out tomorrow we’ll see “Knives Out” + “Succession” among the people trying to replace him. How do Trump’s actual spawn feel about him placing Emperor Musk over them? It appears that the Republicans in Congress are all submissives but maybe a Republican Governor will want to be more than Musk’s regional governor.
A question about the make up of our current armed forces. When you force out all the women, transgenders and immigrants looking for citizenship will there be a big enough army left to conquer Gaza, Greenland, Canada and Panama and still protect the US from some coalition (NATO or the equivalent) deciding we’re Nazi Germany all over again and starting WWIII?
Betty Cracker
@artem1s:
Good insight. I think Frank’s point at #1 is also true. At some level, all of these groups seek to evade accountability.
prostratedragon
Reminder:
Doesn’t hurt to try, even if these have been red districts in the past.
Ohio Mom
Like almost everyone else, I can’t keep up with everything. What’s the deal with using El Salvador’s prison — we must be offering to pay them for this um, service,
how much, and how much money to fly everyone down? Why does Trump like El Salvador so much he’s giving them so much money?
Leto
@Suzanne: “Guys, my girlfriend in Canada in so freaky. No, you can’t meet her.” Same energy/vibe. I mean, I loved watching the clips where he clearly has no fucking idea what’s going on with his toon and him just making an absolute ass of himself. Just wish he didn’t have to inflict that resentment on the rest of us. Leave him to be a low D level Twitch nerd. That’s about as much talent as he has.
Betty Cracker
@Leto: I’m not sure what you mean.
The Unmitigated Gaul
Regarding Christian nationalists, has there been a single religious figure of any consequence – other than Bishop Budde – who has spoken out against Trump?
At the risk of repeating myself yet again: “We live in an era of tremendous and profound cowardice. Just shocking cowardice.”
Leto
@Ohio Mom: per most human rights organizations, it’s on par, if not worse, than the Russian prisons. It’s one of the worst places on the planet. On top of the fact that they’re going to not just round up and deport immigrants, but US citizens as well. Moving people off US soil is another way to get around oversight/protection, and then moving them there is just… an extra shit cherry on top of the infected pustule.
Betty Cracker
@prostratedragon: It never hurts to try, but the 1st is an extremely wingnut district (Gaetz!) and the 6th only slightly less so, iirc.
comrade scotts agenda of rage
Hair Furor supposedly cheats at golf, hasn’t hurt his reputation in any way that’s a) demonstrable, and b) that counts.
In fact, he’s got an awful golf swing but he drives the ball very straight. Sorry, golf nerd moment.
Cheating a video games: if you’ve never seen the documentary, The King of Kong, put it on your list. Also too, “cheat codes” for video games is a very heavily populated online search segment. A lot of people would probably identify with any efforts Edolph did along those lines.
He’s still scum who’s head needs to be affixed to the end of a pike and put outside the city walls as an example to others but I digress.
Layer8Problem
@prostratedragon: The earlier we try and continue to try, the earlier we might succeed and flip the House. The earlier we succeed the less prepared they are to overturn that success by hook or by crook.
AM in NC
A friend told me that her mom (a Catholic Trumper) and her friends were VERY upset at Elon’s Nazi salute. She didn’t vote for President this time because the Pope said both candidates had issues.
If we can get ANY of the self-professed Christian right people to actually focus on the words of Christ, they should be peel-able from the other two groups. But I don’t know how many Evangelicals actually are Christians in any meaningful sense at this point.
I always go for Christians, using the words of Christ kindly with them and pointing out the rift with the other main parts of their coalition, who would have stripped Jesus for parts and melted him down if they thought it would make them another buck.
Also for working class people by pointing out the tension between their needs not being met and billionaires’ efforts to strip mine us for another private island.
We KNEW to hate the James Spader character in our teen movies – why do Republicans want him to rule over all of us? These cultural tropes have salience. ALL MuskMAGAs need to be painted as those creeps. Because they are.
Leto
@The Unmitigated Gaul: Rev. William Barber II continually brings the righteous fire. I wonder if I had been brought up in his church, instead of the SC Southern Baptist churches, if I still would be an atheist? Idk, but I appreciate the work he continually does.
jimmiraybob
@The Unmitigated Gaul:
Yes. But the voices of moderate to liberal Christians are/have been buried under an avalanche of Christian Nationalist propaganda using outright lies and disinformation and the capture of the Republican Party that started decades ago.
Leto
@comrade scotts agenda of rage: I have not seen The King of Kong, but I watched a documentary about speed running and I think they addressed part of that in it. But I’ve seen other features about the cheating world; hell, I’ve played World of Warcraft for 20 years now and the mantra is, “Cheat early, cheat often.” The history of what people have done is wild. Pixels, mofos… pixels. /shrug
E.
Seems like 1 and 2 are going to fight, with guns, and 3 is going to ally with 1 when it has to. The rest of us are not going to matter.
p.s. I wonder about protests at Tesla dealers as a start.
WereBear
Potential religious schisms, cutthroat con artists who don’t take anything seriously, run by agents of a foreign enemy who like throwing people from heights. All power hungry and outright insane from various personality disorders and lack of accountability.
Come on. Even people who only read Save the Cat! could figure out how this will go.
I’m just sure it’s “badly” and I dearly hope it’s soon. The sanity train has already jumped the tracks and now plowing through the forest like in The Fugitive.
Leto
@jimmiraybob:
@The Unmitigated Gaul:
I’d be remiss to not mention the late Jimmy Carter. Sunday school teacher, so not exactly the same, but he did speak out against Trumpov. I linked a few days ago to a pastor in NC who was fired for preaching social justice for the past few years.
As far as like, big mainstream pastors? I can’t think of any. The mega church people are all prosperity grifting fuckers. The people actually dedicated to the work tend to operate much, much smaller venues for various reasons.
Matt McIrvin
@AM in NC:
They’re extending it to the James Spader character in “Avengers: Age of Ultron.”
The Unmitigated Gaul
@jimmiraybob: But where are the Archbishops, the Cardinals, the Mother Teresa-types? What do they stand for these days (asks a very lapsed Catholic)?
catclub
lot of gamergate fans. FTFY
RevRick
I don’t know how effective it would be to set the three factions against each other, because they have a common agenda of destruction. Instead, I would urge us to leverage our crowbar between them and the rest of the population. And I would do that by using every simple, loaded word I could to describe what they are doing.
Billionaire vandals looting our money
Tyrants
Enemies of freedom
Stealing and violating our private information
Heck, in attacking the Christian nationalists I would throw in loaded Christian words such as demonic and betrayers and Judases. (Or Benedict Arnolds)
My point is we need to portray them as loathsome as they are. Nothing mealy-mouthed or requiring more than a sixth grade education.
One of the reason I remain on Facebook and X is that I can slam MAGA, et al. this way in response to their garbage. I know that they are highly defensed and will vehemently deny, but there are others on the fence who overhear this. I want to raise the discomfort of the latter group.
catclub
The archbishops, cardinals and mother Teresa types are also most likely to be the most retrograde conservative catholics. It was amazing the cardinals elected Francis. But they needed somebody who was a contrast to cover-up Benedict.
There are catholic worker type nuns. Don’t know about priests, they all seem to have been recruited from extremely conservative catholic regions.
FDRLincoln
Lately I have been thinking about reconverting back to being an Episcopalian, which was my faith until I drifted into vague neo-paganism about 20 years ago.
Advantages: I can believe in Hell again, where people like Musk and Trump belong. I could also say I am a Christian, and use that as a wedge when trying to point out to other Christians that Christian Nationalism and Trumpism are demonic heresies. Also, I like that Bishop who told Trump off, and of all the Christian denominations, the Episcopalians are (in my view) closest to what Jesus wanted people to act like.
Disadvantages: I can’t say I believe Jesus rose from the dead or that I believe in the Nicene Creed. So, it would be a lie.
I guess I’m stuck with vague neopaganism
On the other hand, Trump and Musk DO fit many of the criteria people look for in the AntiChrist…Trump is a loathsome monster who has fooled the devout, a fake peacemaker…Musk could make using X into the Mark of the Beast.
Even in my Christian days I didn’t believe in the Rapture or cared much about the Book of Revelations. But you know…Trump and Musk DO fit.
If the Rapture happens, it will be all the liberals and hippies and pagans and atheists who go to Heaven.
PhoenixRising
USAID gives a large share of its budget to religiously affiliated orgs doing humanitarian work. (The rest mostly goes to US farmers to buy their produce, another prospective wedge.)
USAID’s fired IG was leading an investigation into whether the Starlink contract w/a Musk firm was being fulfilled, and that’s likely the reason Musk went after USAID first.
But the illegal cutting off of funds to Catholic Charities, etc, is a wedge point for a crowbar to wrench on.
Kirk
Part of the issue is the overlap of the groups, and some issues not brought.
I think it might be useful to remember that there is a very strong branch formed of nationalists – isolationist, whatever you might call them. For those young-uns who might not recall, listen to this (then humorous) John Dylan piece. It’s got truth only slightly exaggerated. Their peel-off point is the exposure of international cooperation. They refuse to see so the Putin links haven’t been so strong, but I suspect they are /painfully/ aware of Musk being an immigrant.
Oligarchs/autocrats and theocrats have overlapped for centuries. If we’re looking for wedges it’s useful to look at history and see where they separated. Unfortunately I don’t think a good wedge exists right now because of the dominance of the prosperity doctrine theocrats but I’ve been wrong before and it IS two different flavors.
All that noted, and not ignoring the arguments in the previous thread, one of the big obstacles we have in the US is the myth of the self-made man. Sure, John Galt is a big bugaboo, but what about almost any western of the late 20th century? Or the myth of the great plains settlers. The mountain men, the Horatio Alger stories, and on and on. Our psyche is built on Green Lanterns and that’s a big reason why there’s the refusal to see the worth of government.
Sorry, still trying to find wedges myself, but those are places I’m looking at.
jimmiraybob
At yesterday’s 50 50 1 meetup at Jefferson City, I passed out special propaganda fliers that I’d made up that included Smokey the Bear saying that “Only You Can Prevent Fascism” and the following quote that I put into comments here a few days ago:
“As mankind become more liberal they will be more apt to allow, that all those who conduct themselves as worthy members of the Community are equally entitled to the protection of civil Government. I hope ever to see America among the foremost nations in examples of justice and liberality.”
– George Washington in his letter to the Roman Catholics in America (1790).
I passed out about 50 of these, including to the press, a few politicos and even a student observer that told me she was there with her high school history class, as a reminder of the roots of out liberal democratic tradition, improved upon by the collaboration between Frederick Douglas and ole Abe Lincoln (since abandoned by the Republican Party). Some were very intrigued. I even asked an anarchist who was leading chants to use “More Justice, More Liberality” and told him where it came from. His group did.
One of two MAGA counter-protesters accepted my invitation to read the flier and was momentarily taken aback that a far-left radical commie Marxist lunatic would have the f*cking nerve to quote the “Father of the Nation” regarding his vision of the future. We actually had an interesting and calm exchange …. really, not even a raised voice. No fists were thrown and no weapons pulled. However, he did end our civil discussion by turning toward the crowd, dropping his trousers and shooting the protesters the moon – Braveheart style (you go guy!). I refer to him as Buttman.
The End. For today. Tip your wait staff generously/
Professor Bigfoot
@Steve LaBonne: I think you’re right about this— there’s no one on their side who has the charisma to charm them like he does.
As for the rest of ‘em, though…
la caterina
@FDRLincoln: Naww. We Episcobears will welcome you! I know Episcopal priests who aren’t so sure about resurrection.
comrade scotts agenda of rage
@jimmiraybob:
How was turnout? Are you in the immediate area or drove in for the event?
Our old office was just east across the street from the library and I lived 15 miles east as the crow flies.
So am very interested in turnout in a bumfuck, red state capitol that I unfortunately know all too well.
MazeDancer
What put Trump into office – if it wasn’t Musk/Russian interference – was economy voters, racists, misogynists, and Trump loyalists.
None of those people are necessarily pro-Musk, billionaires, or tech.
Also, they like porn and sports betting. They are not going to be so happy with Gilead axing those.
And as the economy tanks and the Venezuelans and Cubans get angrier, not everyone in the GOP is going to be happy. Not to mention the gutting of rural public schools.
John S.
@Leto:
I’m Jewish and I love listening to Dr. Barber. He is not only a captivating speaker, but he has incredible knowledge on the topics he speaks about. He is a national treasure.
jimmiraybob
@The Unmitigated Gaul:
One example. You probably read about this in our leading legacy media along with the protesting letter by Catholic Bishops. Oh wait, checks notes…..probably not
Speaking of the Episcopalian Church:
https://episcopalnewsservice.org/2025/02/04/elca-presiding-bishop-debunks-elon-musks-claims-of-illegal-federal-funding/
Belafon
@Ohio Mom: Have you seen pictures of those prisons and the men stacked right up against each other? I’m sure Trump enjoys the image of the brutality of it and would like to break some of his political opponents that way.
FDRLincoln
Cutting off the HIV medicines to Africa is an act of LITERAL genocide. Musk and Trump and the GOP will be responsible, directly, for millions of deaths.
The people who voted for him are responsible for it, too.
jimmiraybob
@comrade scotts agenda of rage:
It was a cold drizzly day but turn out was about 200 at it’s peak. I stayed with my peeps for about 2 1/2 hours and it was still going loud and proud. I drove down from St. Louis.
MazeDancer
@PhoenixRising: Also farmers. Products rotting in the harbor not making them happy.
Hildebrand
@The Unmitigated Gaul: Flynn and Musk going after Lutheran Social Services has really lit a fire under the generally progressive, but mostly quietist ELCA (Evangelical Lutheran Church in American (no, not ‘that’ kind of evangelical, the old definition)). Our Presiding Bishop and a great many of the synodical bishops have been denouncing that, and this seems to have given them the steel to broaden their critiques publicly (most are staunchly against Trump, but too often kept that private). Rabblerousing clergy like myself have been doing this forever, but it’s nice to have some of our higher-ups join the fight.
Steve LaBonne
@FDRLincoln: Vague neopaganism is one of the more popular UU theologies. We can’t help you with the hell bit, though.
comrade scotts agenda of rage
@Kirk:
*Ton* of overlap here as libertarian/neoliberal market fundamentalists apply their bullshit ‘abundance’ mantra to any and everything they try to commoditize.
One of the latest catch phrases to come out of that group is The Abundance Agenda:
Detailed read on that:
https://prospect.org/economy/2024-11-26-abundance-agenda-neoliberalisms-rebrand/
I say this repeatedly, this crap is baked into modern, US culture, both sides. Peter Thiel does his best Montgomery Burns “Excellent” impression every time he sees some progressive or elected Dem push this crap in whatever area it’s been applied to.
Steve LaBonne
@Hildebrand: This is good news.
MazeDancer
@prostratedragon: How many Cuban and Venezuelan voters in those districts? They feel betrayed now.
FDRLincoln
@Steve LaBonne: Well, my thinking is that your afterlife is a lot like your current life in terms of how you treat people. Like attracts like. If you are a positive loving gentle person who treats others well, if imperfectly, you will end up with like spirits and grow together towards God.
If you are a racist asshole, or a rapist misogynist, or a Nazi, you will end up with like spirits and can be as cruel and vicious to each other as you want. Like attracts like.
I do believe that. So I guess I already believe that people like Trump and Musk will end up where they deserve, even if not quite Hell as traditional theology understands.
It is necessary for me to believe that there is some sort of justice in the end, otherwise I would go insane.
zhena gogolia
@FDRLincoln: Come to UCC. Nobody demands you sign anything.
ETA: Should say, the Episcopalians won’t either.
NotMax
@RevRick
Missed the opportunity yesterday, so here’s a bouquet of belated birthday wishes.
Hoodie
People hate to realize they’re being swindled. That doesn’t seem to bother #1 vis a vis Trump right now, but a possible fissure to exploit is the reality that Musk et all are really running things for their own benefit and are just using Trump. There has always been an alliance between #s 2 and 3 because they’re analogous – they both want a hierarchy where they’re in charge and have historically worked out power sharing structures where they can do that. Think the relationships of the Church to the aristocracy. Believe it or not, the path to defeating this crowd may be through the MAGA faithful themselves. There’s nothing like the wrath of the betrayed true believer. Trump will die one day and it’s hard to transfer a cult of personality to a new leader.
...now I try to be amused
@FDRLincoln:
You’re not alone. There has been a lot of doubt about the Book of Revelation within Christianity. It was one of the last books accepted into the Christian canon, and some Eastern sects reject it to the present day. I personally think Revelation is more trouble than it’s worth, thanks to the people who insist on reading the Bible literally.
MomSense
Rep. Jared Golden’s (the best we can do in CD2 for now) statement on DOGE accessing treasury was smart. His district has voted for Trump in the last three elections. He said that Musk was undermining Trump and I think that is a good way to cause a rift between groups 1 and 3.
comrade scotts agenda of rage
@Steve LaBonne:
Vague Neopaganism has now replaced my longstanding religion of being a Shitty Taoist.
The “vague” label still has me chuckling.
AM in NC
Just educating Americans on the fact that max tax rates on income from working are over TWICE the max taxes on vast investment portfolios would be a start.
As in my step-mom had ZERO idea about the difference between Capital Gains tax rates and labor income tax rates. She is hard core Republican and had NO idea that heirs sitting on the beach living off Daddy’s income pay lower tax rates than doctors, teachers, Administrative Assistants. She wasn’t happy to find out, and didn’t really believe me.
Just massive billboards: Why do REPUBLICANS tax OUR work income at twice the rate of billionaire investment income? Tell REPUBLICANS tax BILLIONAIRES’ stock income the same as OUR work income!!!!!!!
We need them thinking, Why should Richie Rich pay 1/2 the tax rate on his daddy’s investments than I do for working 50-60 hours a week? REPUBLICANS, that’s why. NOPE.
Betty Cracker
@MazeDancer: I’ve read a lot of “leopards eating faces”-style stories in the Florida press about Trump removing Venezuelan immigrants from TPS. They are pissed because they claim they were lied to by Repub officials, who they say flat-out told them Trump would only go after undocumented people.
I don’t know if it will matter long term. It seems like so many people have to personally know someone who gets treated like shit before it’s real to them.
Steve LaBonne
@Betty Cracker: ALL conservatives are like that.
Xavier
A fourth group, kinda like Musk but not exactly are establishment Republicans. The Republican Party, when push comes to shove, doesn’t believe in democracy, which it sees as little but mob rule. Republicans really believe that governing should be done by property owners, employers, and well patriarchs. For them the only legitimate role for government is protection of the private property rights of owners, employers, and patriarchs. Call them neofeudalists.
jimmiraybob
@comrade scotts agenda of rage:
Two of the friends that I met up with are from near Marthasville. I amd a citybilly and I have always loved the Ozarks. And the asphalt two-laner that we drove was a wonderful route between the Missouri R. and Katy Trail.
Of course, Missouri has a pretty hefty Blue and Blue-adjacent population, mostly in STL, Columbia and KC (Go Chiefs*). Talking to a musician from Springfield that I talked to a couple of years ago, I understand that it’s surprisingly more liberal than I would have thought.
I have a feeling that when the farmers and ranchers have to start selling off there properties to big AGRA due to cancelation, or even the threat of cancelation if the immediate damage is too much to handle, of USAID, there will be a rebellion.
Eural Joiner
I really like to play cool, near-future video games a la Cyberpunk 2077. I hate feeling like I’m starting to live in one.
Also – not coincidence? – the excellent Nine Inch Nails podcast “nailed” has just started their series on 2007’s “Year Zero” which, sadly, fits more in 2025 than it did when it originally came out. Actually, shockingly so. Again, love the album, hate living the experience.
FDRLincoln
What it is like being a Vague NeoPagan…
When I pray, sometimes I pray to Jesus, and sometimes to the Great Goddess, and sometimes say a Hail Mary…
Sometimes I don’t pray at all.
I told you it was vague!
So far I haven’t prayed to Cthulhu, although maybe I should try that and see what happens.
comrade scotts agenda of rage
@AM in NC:
The tax code “reforms” that began under Reagan are, as all of us know, one of the most catastrophic, slow-moving disasters to have befallen this country ever.
If somebody could come up with an effective, pithy way of pitching that and what you said, and then have a party that hammers this mantra home for, I dunno, forever, we might have a chance.
Alas, 40 years of “I’ll lower your taxes” as basically a distraction to what really happens in the tax code that’s contributed to the massive income inequality in this country, is a tough message to counter in the near term.
jimmiraybob
From the Independent: “Trump campaigned that Democrats ‘abandoned’ Catholics. His USAID crusade will decimate the Catholic relief agency.”
There will be an outcry from religious communities.
...now I try to be amused
@Betty Cracker:
As best as I can tell, all conservatives are like that. It’s their lack of empathy.
tobie
I just read that roughly 35% of SpaceX’s revenue comes from the federal govt. I bet that’s true for many of the tech entrepreneurs in Group 3. It would be great to hammer home how much public funding (state and federal) companies like SpaceX, Meta, Oracle and so on get. They are the US’s grifters. Maybe that could drive a wedge between Group 1 and 3????
FDRLincoln
I have a friend who worships the Greek pantheon, in all seriousness, Reconstructed Hellenism. She found it very healing, and she doesn’t have to worry about the pesky “why does a good omnipotent God allow evil and suffering” theodicy problem.
Downpuppy
@artem1s: For a lot of the grifters, the motives are much simpler. Whichever camp they pretend to be in, they’re just flat out thieves.
There’s plenty of money to go around, but at some point they still start fighting over shares. Or maybe some of them are sincere enough that they get rattled over the obvious unchecked corruption.
WTFGhost
@Frank Wilhoit: if I had money, I’d hire an ad specialist through a few different dark money cutouts, to spread anti-Christian ads.
“The Christ-like destruction of Gaza”
“Jesus. He gets US. Unless your[sic] a fag or a trannie, or a lesbo not starring in porn.”
“It’s okay – when we executed your son, he had his last, best, chance to convert and go to heaven, but, alas, he’s probably burning in hell.”
“I was trying to protect my wife!”
“YOU MURDERED YOUR BABY! EXECUTE HIM!”
Since I don’t have a lot of money, I figured I’d play like the outnumbered, outgunned, brave little resistance fighters who planned to learn fluent Enemy, and then die a lot. (“There is a word for ‘lone hero, struggling against insurmountable odds’ and the word is ‘dead’.” — an old computer RPG book – maybe Wizardry?)
Sorry: ETA, Christianity is *really* unpopular when tied to hate and bigotry, and it’s *nowhere* near strong enough to shrug off the loss due to hate and bigotry. Me, I hate the idea of fighting evangelicals by sliming “christianity” (no caps, it’s not a proper noun to evangelicals), but, they already slimed it good and proper, so….
Captain C
@artem1s:
Looks like it was a smart move to put so many projects in red states.
Captain C
@Leto: Wasn’t he at the inauguration at the same time he was supposedly playing whatever game he clames to be a master at?
catclub
@FDRLincoln: Necessary here:
In the Church of Aphrodite
Priestess wears a see-through nightie
She’s an awfully righteous sightie
And its good enough for me.
Gimme that ol’ time religion,
gimme that ol’ time religion
Cause its good enough for me.
WTFGhost
@Betty Cracker: One person whose daughter died from Covid-19 decided it was her daughters own fault, because she didn’t handle stress well, and that’s why she died.
Sometimes, the leopards eat your own *children’s* faces, and they still don’t notice. This ain’t normal; it ain’t right. It’s why I figure I was just born in the wrong world, I was supposed to go someplace where kindness and compassion are valued and can be taught, and I ended up in *this* hellhole.
artem1s
@The Unmitigated Gaul:
Dr. Barber and Rev. Warnock. Don’t forget the Black church leaders who have been on the front lines for decades.
There was a minority of conservative AA churches that enabled W’s election in 2004 (and TCF in 2024) and were on board with homophobia and misogyny but there were standouts who refused to throw women and LGBTQ under the bus.
Barber and his moral Monday movement is pretty much the reason NC has been able to go from red to purple and has a change to get to blue.
...now I try to be amused
@catclub:
We will worship like the Druids
Dancing naked in the woods
Drinking strange fermented fluids
And it’s good enough for me.
catclub
@tobie:
and I would suspect that SpaceX is a huge outlier in the ‘tech company gets most of its money from the feds’ rating.
Google, MS, Oracle, Meta, Amazon the US govt is a minor customer. The federal government does have business need to launch satellites and is the biggest customer for that.
Is if grifting if they are supplying a service the US government needs? See Lockheed, General Dynamics, Boeing, Northrup Grumman
Peke Daddy
El Salvador has crypto as a national currency, with all that implies.
catclub
@…now I try to be amused: Those are so much fun.
Trying to figure out how to find the emphasis on the words.
Matt McIrvin
@FDRLincoln: A lot of American atheists are libertoonian techno-utopian types, with all the racist and sexist hangups those guys have. The skeptic movement is sadly shot through with them (it should know better). Rebecca Watson has complained at length about this. They hate her so much.
I’ve been a pretty committed atheist for most of my life but I usually feel more comfortable hanging out online with liberal Christians than with them. It’s just the metaphysics of Christianity I don’t buy. In the Protestant subculture I ultimately come out of, believing in the metaphysics is the key to religious identity. But the metaphysics seems to me to be the least important part of religion, in a practical sense.
jimmiraybob
@WTFGhost: The Christian literalists envisioning Jesus’ return and the apocalypse probably weren’t expect their God-anointed leader on Earth to instead start selling stock in the building of the Riviera on the Med. On the other hand, maybe the plan is to just give the returning Savior luxury accommodations for the battle.
Bill Hicks
Too lazy to read the other comments but one answer to Betty’s question on a way to divide is: PRON and DRUGS!
Kelly
moved to fresh thread
catclub
How seriously do you take the recitation of the Nicene Creed? Do you (I) mean it when we say it?
zhena gogolia
@catclub: We don’t recite it.
E.
@FDRLincoln: If you ask my 4-year old why the sun rises he will look at you quizzically and then go into considerable detail about Apollo’s Golden Chariot. Makes me so proud.
FDRLincoln
@Matt McIrvin: i hear you. I have a friend who was sexually harassed by Dawkins while attending an atheist convention. Powerful people tend to be assholes in any group it seems.
catclub
@FDRLincoln:
It is amazing to think that 50 years ago the Episcopal church would be described as “The Republican party at prayer.”
Actually taking the Creed seriously is important.
Cheers
Jeffg166
When have right wing fantasies not blown up in their faces? What the explosion will look like is anyone’s guess.
emjayay
@comrade scotts agenda of rage: “make your target start to think a little bit deeper”
Not in their tool kit
IT WOULD BE NICE IF REPLIES TO COMMENTS HERE DIDN’T APPEAR A HALF MILE BELOW THAT COMMENT.
catclub
@emjayay:
Isn’t threaded commenting on BJ a sign of the Apocalypse? So we resist it.
Steve LaBonne
@Matt McIrvin: That’s exactly how we UUs see it.
Miss Bianca
@FDRLincoln: The Emperor Julian would be so proud…;)
comrade scotts agenda of rage
@Miss Bianca:
Yeah but look where that got him! ;)
emjayay
@The Unmitigated Gaul: But where are the Archbishops, the Cardinals, the Mother Teresa-types?
A string of right wing Popes were able to restock US Diocees with right wingers over the years. As long as abortions are made illegal they are happy and so are their parishioners, the rest having mostly left in that time. I guess Francis has made some inroads back to those understanding the actual message of Christ.
Miss Bianca
@AM in NC:
“Both candidates had issues”? Jesus Christ, Francis – thanks a lot.
Scout211
President Musk’s federal employee “buyout” is blocked by federal judge.
Professor Bigfoot
@E.: I like that kid! Well taught, parent-human!
Miss Bianca
@Betty Cracker:
Well, at the rate things are going, the proverbial crumb of comfort here might be that sooner, rather than later, almost every last one of these people *will* personally know someone who’s been treated like shit by the current Maladministration.
NotMax
As replied to your original comment upstairs before you deleted it,
@Scout211
A federal judge has also issued a temporary restraining order that Treasury cease allowing Musk and his minions’ access to their computer systems.
Don’t let that word temporary rattle you. It’s a standard step before fuller briefing requesting a preliminary injunction.
emjayay
@zhena gogolia: “Come to UCC. Nobody demands you sign anything.”
Or of course believe anything. I don’t, but I kinda don’t see their point either. Also their “churches” usually aren’t that pretty, and don’t have cool stuff like statues and organs.
ErikaF
And the links that tenuously hold the three factions together are the grifters. MAGA is becoming a large industry that has proved so gullible for grifting – keep them screaming and angry and feeling like they must support their leader Trump.
Christian Nationalists are pretty much starting from fraud – prosperity Gospel (Lakewood church and Joel Osteen come to mind). They have to contribute to keep themselves “worthy”, so the “preachers” keep emphasizing the minority threat and the social threat from culteral changes. The more money the CN pay/tithe, the worthier they are, so keep them off balance and scared and thinking they are not worthy of their position/money/weird channel to Heaven.
Elon Musk is the epitomy of capitalism run beserk – go into a company, loot it for everything it’s got, then discard it – we’re seeing vulture capitalism applied to our government. Since business is such a cutthroat industry (especially in the software and tech arenas) this is simply showing the world who’s boss. The grifters must ensure that the “common” folk regard them as great businessmen, when it’s really steamrolling over laws in search of money. They will lie about their products/practices – all to insure more money coming in. But as soon as the business or businessman has served their purpose, toss them over the brink to the next target.
MAGA and CN have their identities wrapped around Trump and the Prosperity Gospel. Highlight the grifters to make them angry at the MAGA and the CN environment around them. Point them at the businessmen who are grifting them to get them mad at this faction. Point out the times that Elon has rolled over Theil and Bezos, and vice versa. Wedge a crack between Musk and Trump – or Trump and any of the other businessmen by comparing their “business” practices. The dick-waving and measuring will soon occur.
And there is the last group – the Republicans that are compromised/promised to Putin. But that means they are constantly having to “prove” their worth to Putin, or else Russia’s help on the elections go away. So keep highlighting the Russian connections so that not only the public sees what’s going on (if we can break thru to the public), but the other Putin puppets find out who else they may have to compete with. And keep highlighting what Putin is doing – all of it. The Ukraine war, the robbing of the Russian Treasury and other Russian oligarchs, the sending of so many young men to die in an invasion. Point out how much Trump et al is copying the mob dictator approach from Putin, and keep pointing out that Putin is not, and never will be, the friend of anyone that opposes dictatorial rule.
IMHO, of course.
NickM
It seems to me the key trait running through all of them — Trump, Musk, Kennedy, Hegseth, Miller, press sec. Leavitt — is sociopathy. None seems to have any conscience of note — the first few have all treated intimate partners and their children terribly — and they all seem to enjoy seeing others suffer. Right now they all have a common bond in stirring up shit and hurting people but I can’t imagine people with no scruples against stabbing one another getting along long-term. Especially when the glue holding them together — Trump — dissolves.
Glidwrith
@tobie: That’s a good idea: not many MAGAts realize how much pig-in-a-trough those corporations are. My dad got EXTREMELY upset when I pointed out Muskrat isn’t rich because of his work but because he’s sucking down Fed $$$.
emjayay
@jimmiraybob: Sorry this place doesn’t have a simple thumbs up/down function either. But thumbs up anyway.
Miss Bianca
@catclub:
that particular verse of that particular parody seems to have a lot of variation: to wit, the version I came up with went:
Let us all praise Aphrodite
Who is beautiful but flighty
In her see-through satin nightie
She’s good enough for me
Give me that old-time religion, etc etc
Every time I see Alexandra Tyldings as Aphrodite on Xena, who plays it just like that, I think of that verse and crack up all over again.
Geminid
This is more of an observation than an actionable suggestion, but I noticed Trump’s statements on Gaza Tuesday ignited a lot of controversy in Republican social media spaces. A lot of people thought it was a terrible idea– which it is– while others said it was brilliant, mainly because it was Trump saying it.
I think this is the reason his minions started walking it back yesterday. No, his press secretary said, there will be no US troops in Gaza and no, the US will not fund Gaza’s reconstruction. Waltz, his National Security Advisor, played it off as a gambit intended somehow to influence Arab nations.
Trump’s plan, if it can be called a plan, predictably struck a nerve in the Arab world. But it also struck a nerve in the Republican base. We’ll see if Trump pulls it back, but he’s kind of like a zombie now and said of his plan, “Everyone loves it”! I think it’s a loser politically though.
Glidwrith
@ErikaF: Vulture capitalism came about thanks to Reagan. I haven’t heard any modern politicians actually point out that having essentially pirates take over a healthy company and destroy it for fun and profit is actually bad for business. ToysRUs is gone because of them. So is Kaylee toys and Red Lobster. I doubt many people know they didn’t “fail”, they were deliberately destroyed.
Isn’t that the American dream? Building your business, be successful so you don’t have to answer to anyone and these people go around taking what isn’t theirs, stealing your hard work.
cmorenc
@AM in NC: a big portion of evangelical Christians are in it to appease jesus and god by sufficient worship and praise to earn their ticket to salvation and everlasting life in heaven. And not jesus essential message from the sermon on the mount about what truly following the way of jesus was about. Their approach is essentially transactional – abject unquestioning praise for salvation, win your get-out of sin card. It’s not really about “what would jesus do”.
Matt McIrvin
@Miss Bianca: Yeah, Francis was really keen on Joe Biden but when Kamala Harris was swapped in, he was “both candidates are evil, I’ll leave it up to you which is the greater evil”.
Ksmiami
@AM in NC: hey James Spaeder was creepy but good looking and charismatic. The current GOp overlords are unfuckable- seriously
BritinChicago
Money is always a crucial issue. (Duh.) Faction 3. wants lower taxes, especially for people like themselves. Faction 1. wants to continue Grandma’s Social Security, Medicare and also her Medicaid payment for the nursing home. (This faction probably also wants Obamacare subsidies, but only if you give them a different name.)
This circle can, of course, be squared by increasing the deficit (yet more) and lying about it, which is the usual Republican strategy. (But the tax cuts will pay for themselves!) That’s been done often enough (W as well as FFOUS) that there may be some members of Faction 3. for whom it’s a reach too far, some budget hawks who mean what they say. Or is that hopelessly naive?
Glidwrith
@NeenerNeener: If the bigots force out everyone they don’t like, we won’t have much left of our armed forces. Adam said a while ago that we have so many missions deployed around the world that they are stretched to the limit. Take out women, brown folks and sexually non-conforming persons and those missions are endangered as well.
When Shitgibbon talks about forcing us to do what he wants, the response should be “you and what army????”.
Matt McIrvin
@Glidwrith: But the people who are left will be way more likely to do war crimes without complaining, which is what’s important.
Ksmiami
@Captain C: no. Actually it wasn’t because Biden never got any credit and it came at the expense of his blue state supporters.
ErikaF
@Glidwrith: Reagan has so much to answer for. Vulture capitalism is great for the short run for the vultures; however the workers and consumers get screwed. The shareholders get some money in the beginning, but as things are sold off it’s time to sell those shares and run away. There is an entire financial industry that runs on screwing over other companies.
Ohio Mom
I don’t doubt the torture provided in El Salvador’s prison system is very attractive to Trump. I am wondering who put this idea in his head, how come he’s friendly with El Salvador, how much as we going to pay them?
Tracks perfectly — no foreign aid to keep people alive but foreign aid to torture people.
Ksmiami
@FDRLincoln: as I’ve said to evangelicals who’ve asked me why I reject religion and will accept that I will spend eternity in hell … as long as I don’t have to spend eternity with you Rt wing religious fuck nuts, I’m good with heat…
Matt McIrvin
@Ksmiami: Being a multi-billionaire seems to be an effective means of collecting a series of short-term wives, who may even be beautiful actresses or pop singers. They don’t stick around though.
RevRick
@NotMax: Thank you.
For my birthday dinner I had seared ostrich steak. Tasted like a cross between elk and steak.
Citizen Alan
@WTFGhost: On the night of the election in 2000, I was riding with a work colleague back from Oxford to Jackson where I was clerking at the time. When I fell asleep in the car, Gore was ahead in Florida. I went straight to bed and woke up the next morning to learn that the election was now in doubt.
Ever since, I have consistently grappled with the thought that I might have died in a car wreck on the way back to Jackson and have been in hell ever since.
Scout211
Speaking of know your enemies*, more details of Musk’s Treasury takeover origins.
*Trump’s enemies, to be specific
. . .
Read the whole thing, it’s long, but full of details.
Suzanne
I need a WTF Open Thread. I’m still trying to understand FFOTUS’s TruthSocial post about Gaza in which he seems to think that Chuck Schumer is Palestinian.
LMAO I’m sorry, it’s so fucken dumb.
pajaro
Trump is losing, bigly so far, in the courts. There’s been a decision striking down the birthright citizenship order, pausing the DOGE assault on our records, and stopping the order shutting off foreign assistance. There are more suits filed all the time.
I also want to echo some of the stuff that Josh Marshall (whom many of you know) has been saying. The one place where Democrats may be able to exercise power (as opposed to complaining) is in the upcoming negotiations on the debt ceiling and budget, since the votes of at least some Democrats will be necessary to pass anything. He suggests, and I fully agree, that the one Democratic demand before agreeing to anything is that the White House stop the illegal crap it’s showering us with. To make clear that if they want to shut down projects that have been authorized by Congress, or limiting asylum,, to name just two issues, they can do so by going to Congress and repealing whatever statutes authorized the various programs, but that they can’t just cancel programs or rights that Congress has authorized. If you agree with his suggestion, our task is to make sure our representatives know that’s what we want them to do.
Miss Bianca
so noted, I will include those suggestions in my next communiques to my reps.
jimmiraybob
@Suzanne: “I’m still trying to understand FFOTUS’s TruthSocial post about Gaza in which he seems to think that Chuck Schumer is Palestinian.”
Probably confused with that Jesus guy, the Palestinian Jew.
NeenerNeener
@Matt McIrvin: On the other hand one good-sized nuke on Washington makes Trump’s big adventure moot. Which for me is ironic because every May when the annual nuclear meltdown siren test went off I remembered that I lived a wee bit too close to the Ginna nuclear plant on the banks of Lake Ontario. When I retired I moved to Virginia, and now I have to be worried about being nuked by NATO because Trump was feeling frisky.
Ksmiami
@Matt McIrvin: they do it for the glitz, but he’s a freak
Emily B.
@Citizen Alan: Yikes! And you took the rest of us with you.
sentient ai from the future
Plugging in hard drives to treasury computers?
The entire infrastructure now has to be scrubbed, top to bottom.
Like 15 years ago now there was a paper published about malware that resided in the internal drive controller and allowed the well resourced attacker to exfiltrate data even from airgapped networks.
Any treasury payments to e.g. covert operatives or front companies, even via shell companies, those entities are now at risk.
This is absolutely going to get people killed and may have already.
eldorado
@Suzanne: Musk being a cheater at video games is one of those small details that nonetheless has caused a fair amount of damage to his reputation
The bros all understand how lame this is
catclub
CNN says Bondi just shut down the unit investigating foreign influence on elections.
The calls were coming from inside the house.
AWOL
@Ohio Mom: They like spooning Leftist’s eyeballs out.
AWOL
@The Unmitigated Gaul:
Rev. Barber is very active, but since he’s Black, he might as well be screaming into the wind.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Barber_II
AWOL
@…now I try to be amused: The Book of Revelation is a satire written by a Jewish follower of Jesus who loathed the idea of converting gentiles to the new Judaism Jesus allegedly offered. Besides seeming to be bat guano insane, as it has cultural references from thousands of years ago about Babylonian persecution, it negates Christianity. But then again, most Christians negate Christianity. X-ref 1933-1945.
chemiclord
WE can’t do much. Those fractures really have to emerge naturally before they can be exploited.
Ruckus
@NeenerNeener:
I imagine not.
I was in the USN during the Vietnam war and yes there were women in the USN at the time. (Once saw, while in boot camp, a recruit make a pass at 2 enlisted women walking by and they gave him the chewing out he deserved, I almost laughed at him) But back then women in the military did not serve on ships or in a war zone. It’s different today, woman serve in many (all?) areas that men do. I’d bet it’s changed the military just a bit. And for the better. Think how much better we’d be today if the woman running for president had won, instead of his majesty – dumbass, an aged out, pathetic, useless, old fart, with musky dipshit as his controller/owner/whatever.
NaijaGal
@catclub: The US govt does use AWS (Amazon Web Services).
Gvg
@pajaro: the problem I have is I am not certain Trump or the GOP wants to pass anything and may think a default is OK and a way to force budget cuts.
For years I have thought those idiots didn’t actually understand what a default is or the impact. They don’t understand anything, and Trump is worse. This means it is hard to predict anything based on an assumption they will act logically. They don’t know how ignorant they are.
Sally
@Matt McIrvin: IMHP it was worse than that. He said:
“Forcing a child from the mother’s womb is an assassination because there is life there,”
and
“Expelling migrants, not letting them develop, not letting them have a life is an ugly thing, it’s mean,”
Assassination vs mean.
Not exactly lesser of two evils. Disgusting.
brantl
@
@MazeDancer: Voter suppression played a small but critical role, as well.
Kayla Rudbek
@Suzanne: and we can also split them by denominations; do the Evangelicals really want a Catholic monarchy, do the Catholics want a Protestant state, etc.
Kayla Rudbek
@The Unmitigated Gaul: most of the Catholic bishops are in the tank for Trump (although apparently the new Archbishop of DC is not totally a fan of his). One of the many reasons I’m not a practicing Catholic, too many years living in the diocese of Arlington
Kayla Rudbek
@Glidwrith: JoAnn (craft store) may be heading that way now as well thanks to vulture capitalism, so I’m not sure where the quilters and other sewing people are going to shop. Michaels doesn’t have bolts of fabric and I’m not sure if Hobby Lobby does, as I won’t shop there at all.
brantl
@FDRLincoln: As George Carlin said, religion is like a lift in your shoes, if you need it great, but don’t go nailing lifts on the natives’ feet.