What…does any of this mean
www.reuters.com/markets/us/t…— Catherine Rampell (@crampell.bsky.social) February 9, 2025 at 6:00 PM
The guy notorious for stiffing his creditors suggests he could just, y’know, decide not to pay interest on debts owed by the government, because who’s gonna make him? Only question seems to be whether Acting President Musk fed him this theory, or whether he’s just reverting to his happy place. Per Reuters:
U.S. President Donald Trump on Sunday said the United States may carry less debt than thought and said it could be because of fraud related to debt payments.
Trump made his comments to reporters aboard Air Force One while flying to the Super Bowl in New Orleans.
The United States currently has $36.2 trillion public debt outstanding, according to the U.S. Treasury, which plays a central role in the global financial system…
“We’re even looking at Treasuries,” Trump told reporters aboard Air Force One on Sunday. “There could be a problem – you’ve been reading about that, with Treasuries and that could be an interesting problem.”
Trump added on Treasuries: “It could be that a lot of those things don’t count. In other words, that some of that stuff that we’re finding is very fraudulent, therefore maybe we have less debt than we thought.”
Trump’s comments on Sunday about potential fraud related to U.S. Treasuries raises the question of what sort of action Musk’s team may take on Treasuries.
A federal judge temporarily blocked Musk’s team on Saturday from accessing government systems used to process trillions of dollars in payments, citing a risk that sensitive information could be improperly disclosed…
Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent, a Trump appointee, said last week that Musk’s team had “read only” access to the payment system and said any decisions to stop payments would be made by other agencies.
Professional global financial analyst:
They are going to play Russian roulette with US debt markets www.bloomberg.com/news/article…
— Patrick Chovanec (@prchovanec.bsky.social) February 9, 2025 at 5:36 PM
It means uncertainty, which markets always love.
— Patrick Chovanec (@prchovanec.bsky.social) February 9, 2025 at 7:18 PM
I think it means that the same flibberty-gibberty we hear 24-7 from him becomes a lot more pressing to interpret when it seems to mean we're going to stop servicing Treasury debt.
— Josh Marshall (@joshtpm.bsky.social) February 9, 2025 at 6:06 PM
From Josh Marshall, at TPM:
I suspect this will just end up being something Old Man Trump said on a plane and we won’t hear about it again. But after recents, who are we kidding? Anything is possible. On Air Force One today en route to the Super Bowl Trump told reporters that DOGE analysts (whatever that means) had found “irregularities” in US treasuries and that that the US may not be obligated to pay some of them. “Maybe we have less debt than we thought,” he said.
Needless to say, this is quite literally violating the express language of the 14th Amendment which says: “The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned.”…
One other point worth noting is that Trump seems to be basing this on some analysis from the DOGE boys. This appears to have been one of the DOGE boys main goals at Treasury, getting access to details about what kinds of payments Treasury makes, the answer being close to everything the US government does outside of the Pentagon and some of the Pentagon stuff too. The Treasury also services the US debt, which is what we’re talking about here. I’m less clear on what access in what part of Treasury Department these guys could have gotten more information about how the Treasury Department sells and service Treasury notes. But all that detail aside, imagine thinking that by downloading a ton of data and having a few days to analyze it you could make the determination that a significant amount of the US national debt wasn’t real and didn’t have to be paid. It’s hardly the craziest thing we’ve seen over recent days. But it’s still worth noting how nuts that is.
So, if you’re looking to spike your blood pressure, let’s see how the Asian markets (twelve hours or so ahead of ours) react overnight…
Medium Cool – Pet Peeves
Phylllis
So now these college dropouts are also forensic accountants?
Lapassionara
We are in the hands of idiots. FSM save us.
Baud
Coincidentally, I may owe less taxes than I thought.
YY_Sima Qian
I guess we could see the end of Dollar Hegemony after all…
They seem to think that the US has been doing the world a favor by selling them USD denominated debt, & that in every trade/investment/financial transaction the US us being magnanimous & being taken advantage of.
Phylllis
Fixed that for you. As if any of these clowns has the attention span necessary to analyze a Chic Fil A menu board.
Baud
J. Arthur Crank
At some point Musk has to realize that money is, at its fundamental level, a made up concept, and that most forms of wealth rely on a functioning government that people (more or less) have faith in. If not, then other super rich people like the Amazon dude must at some point realize this and step in to stop Musk. Right?
Sally
May I repeat a comment I made in a largely dead thread below. Not that I think my opinion is at all insightful :
Just my opinion – worth what you’re paying for it. We need to (continue to) scream at republicans to do something. They are the ones in power. They could work with Dems to halt the worst, most illegal and most egregious of these moves.
Republicans. Could govern.
It annoys me that we only look to Dems to save us, to clean up after the feckless R’s. Make them, or at least try, to clean up their own damn rooms.
Dems know that what R’s are doing is illegal, wrong, destructive for the country. Scream at R’s to obey the law, work for America and Americans. What they were elected to do. Make the likes of Katie Britt do the work of undoing/preventing the harm her party wants to do.
IMHO
Elizabelle
@Baud: They took it down? But lives in a roundup of memes.
https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/when-you-ride-alone-you-ride-with-hitler/photos
Quinerly
I just read this over at TPM before coming here. I have no words.
sab
@YY_Sima Qian: I am very yikes!y about this. How could we choose to blow this up.
Cushy for USA to have the world’s reserve currency, but isn’t it useful for the world to have somewhere a reserve currency?
No reserve currency in prior centuries seemed to be very destabilizing and destabilized.
Baud
@sab:
That’s why God made crypto.
John S.
@Baud:
Fucking love it. This may inspire me to create some retro PSAs of my own.
Baud
@Elizabelle:
Weird. A bunch of reddit threads have disappearing comments too.
Ohio Mom
@Sally: I’m doing my part. Every weekday I call my Republican Senators —at all five of their combined offices and scream at them. I start out in a conversational tone but I can go from conversational to very loud in under sixty seconds.
Then I call my Democratic Rep. I remind his staff to oppose everything and tell them to keep the faith.
Baud
@Ohio Mom:
Good for you.
randy khan
The odds that the U.S. Treasury is paying interest on any meaningful number of bonds that are not valid seem to me to be very, very long. Of course, Trump knows nothing, so he will say anything.
But if I were someone who held Treasuries I’d be pretty nervous.
schrodingers_cat
If he does that we will be in a global recession the likes of which we haven’t seen since the Great Depression.
White people and wannabe white people, thanks.
Elizabelle
The Felon’s second occupation has not even been a month yet.
Fuck him, and fuck the ignoramuses he rode in on.
schrodingers_cat
@randy khan: You should be nervous because I am sure your bank holds them.
Raoul Paste
Why is it that, every time I’m about to go out of town some cataclysmic shit happens?
p.a.
In tRump 1, which appointee call him “the stupidest motherfucker I’ve ever met”? (later denied of course) and which said, “talking to him is like trying to explain something to a five-year-old”?
Those people are gone this time. Who’s going to tell him “No! That’s stupid!”
Baud
@Raoul Paste:
Trump yapping his jaw isn’t cataclysmic.
Jay
@sab:
For a long time, up until WW1, the Pound Sterling was the global reserve currency. Massive debt incurred during WWI allowed the US Dollar, after WWII become the global reserve currency.
In the 70’s a lot of money moved from the US Dollar to the Yen, then back to the US Dollar when Japan’s economy stalled.
Somehow I don’t think that DOGECoin will replace it.
The Euro could replace it, or the Yuan.
sentient ai from the future
This was always where it was going to go. Destabilize the currency, make us untouchable even by the global credit markets.
Wars of choice couldn’t even do that.
But saying “we might just not pay these obligations” might. Our entire advanced economy depends on that assessment of risk, and we’re already less credit worthy than Australia.
persistentillusion
@Ohio Mom: I did conflict resolution for an insurance agent (yelled at United Health care CS reps). Learned at a certain point to lower my voice and say: “I need to speak to your supervisor right now“. Didn’t always work, but UHC sucked a lot less 15 years ago
ETA and still is dreadful today.
J. Arthur Crank
@Raoul Paste:
This one has an easy answer: The Universe is out to screw you personally. Not humanity in general, but you specifically.
Sally
@Ohio Mom: Yes, thank you. I know I am preaching to the choir here, but I say these things IRL. Fine, criticise Dems all you like, but never forget it’s the R’s who can STOP this destruction.
My friends, and others, thought (and said) I was ridiculous to say that if he is elected again, it will change the world order. Not looking ridiculous now.
J. Arthur Crank
@sentient ai from the future: I hope we can hold off on the global collapse long enough to give the Eagles enough time to complete the beatdown of the Chiefs.
Elizabelle
It is insane that one megalomaniac whose presidency was purchased by another megalomaniac can be allowed to cause this much disruption and destruction.
This is Putin and Orban behavior in an alleged democracy.
I do not see why we need to allow it to happen, in front of us. The rule of law cannot apply only to one party, or to American citizens but not to its representatives.
sab
We are doing mad fundraising for our local international institute that has been settling refugees for decades here. We cannot possibly raise enough money to make up the loss of Fed funds but we are trying.
What with White flight our city has had declining population for a long time, but the refugees are reiving neighborhoods and reviving school. We just passed a huge school levy to finance rebuilding the high school where most of them settle. 20 years ago it missed out on our vast school rebuilding plan, but the huge influx of refugees made us rethink hence the big tax increase to fund the school rebuild. Mostly Congo and Nepal/Bhutan.
And Trumpers just stopped this in its tracks.
Also too there ought to be a special place in hell for JD Vance.
Raoul Paste
@Baud: Not yet
Raoul Paste
@J. Arthur Crank: D’oh!
Ohio Mom
Ever since it entered the realm of possibility that Trump would run again (he didn’t keel over or end up in jail), I assumed that if he won, the economy would at least have a little hiccup under his watch. That fear has grown, now I think a mere recession would be getting off easy.
I keep waiting for big business to say, Stop but crickets.
Even with my morbid imagination, I don’t think they would stop paying on Treasury bills.
sab
@Jay: Part of the stability of the dollar is economists at the Fed run it, not Congress or the President.
Can that be true of the yuan, or the euro?
sentient ai from the future
@Baud: crypto is for speculators, not investors. Just last week most of the big coins got hammered by 15+% before mostly recovering.
Scout211
So I must be in the wrong thread. That trope in the movies when the misfit band of young computer geeks hack into the government computer system and magically wipe out all of the country”s debt?
Yeah, that trope is too unbelievable.
Elizabelle
The Eagles just scored another touchdown
34-0.
Peale
@Jay: Euro, yes. But the Chinese nor the market want it to be the Yuan.
Another Scott
@Raoul Paste: Might as well get used to it, I guess.
He’s going to say something 2-3 times a week so that he stays in the news. It’s what he does.
25% tariffs?
Invade Greenland?
War with Panama?
Shut down USAID?
Take away security details and revoke security clearances of “his enemies”?
Pay 2.2M federal employees to do nothing until September 30 if they sign up to resign?
Appoint himself head of the Kennedy Center?
Etc., etc.
He’s a needy child who has to be at the top of the news all . the . time, even when 90-100% of the things he’s talking about are illegal…
Grr…
Hang in there, everyone. It’s going to be a slog.
Best wishes,
Scott.
Scout211
@Elizabelle: It looks like the eagles might have a chance to win this game.
Elizabelle
@Scout211: It’s like they are playing against the Puppy Bowl.
ETA: Chiefs looking like the Chiefs for the first time in game.
Elizabelle
@Another Scott: It is a calvacade of stupid and cruel and self-dealing.
Chiefs just got a TD. Very elegant series of plays.
Quaker in a Basement
They’re coming for the Social Security trust fund.
Peale
I mean, if the president can just cancel debt because he and his nitwit don’t want to recognize it, this really reminds me that Obama could have just minted that $2 trillion platinum coin.
cmorenc
Much of the big-business community who supported Trump in the election seemed to be under the delusion that the Trumpenstein monster they helped return to office would be toxic only to progressives, not finance and commerce. Hope Trump’s reckless pulled-from-his-ass pronouncement about the Treasury not really owing big parts of the debt wakes them the fuck up into realizing Trump and Musk are going to destabilize and take down the entire economy unless they can quickly exert enough counterpressure to contain the damage before it’s 1929-level or worse.
Peale
@Quaker in a Basement: Its empty! Its all been spent on immigrants!
Yeah, I didn’t think about that. They’ll just cancel the bonds in the trust fund and claim that those aren’t bonds.
Peale
@cmorenc: Sure, Elon has promised to destroy the FDIC, but as a banker, I was just kind of tired of stability and having to take an hour training once a year warning me not to touch my staff members, and was glad I could go back to doing that without the warning.
Ohio Mom
@Peale: This thread is begging to remind me of a horror film, that bit about emptying the Social Security Trust by declaring the bonds aren’t bonds is the point at which my hands are in front of my eyes. I think I’ll sign out.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Ohio Mom:
It’s absolutely insane that he would stop paying interest on treasuries or honoring their redemptions. These are meant to be the world’s safest investments. Many institutions, like major corporations, banks, pension funds, investment funds, etc hold them.
I hold bonds in my retirement savings as part of an index fund I’m invested in.
I also hold I-Bonds at TreasuryDirect, which pay me interest based on the officially reported inflation rate. There’s also a fixed rate component but I bought mine when it was zero. It occured to me that if they fuck with the economic data, they could cheat me and many others out of the money we are owned on our investments
I look at places like the Bogleheads forums and it’s crickets on this stuff over there. It just seems like they’re burying their heads in the sand, “no politics rule” or not. This was the forum founder’s justification for not allowing threads on things like the tariffs:
tobie
@Another Scott: It helps to see all these actions in a frame. It’s just the endless disruption caused by illegal orders that are blocked in court or reversed that’s killing me. Pundits always say that markets hate uncertainty. But this is also true of citizens who don’t have sizable nest eggs to rely on. We’re all in a defensive crouch, a holding pattern as we try to figure put what will happen to our jobs, insurance, expenses, etc.
kindness
It’s almost as if Putin were paying Trump & Musk to destabilize the world. I’m kind of surprised Trump is traveling on the same vehicle as Musk. Oh for the right meteor.
cain
@schrodingers_cat:
You say global recession and depression – and these people think a lot of land and stuff is up for grabs. Hedge funds, tech-bros, and others all ready to buy up whatever they can and then sit on it.
Soprano2
@Another Scott: I’m tempted to message my investment guy who likes FFOTUS and ask him if he has regrets yet. They’d better walk this back before the U.S. markets open tomorrow, is all I can say. I know FFOTUS says stuff to stay in the news, but because he can make things happen they have to take it seriously.
Soprano2
@Elizabelle: They look terrible, nothing like the team I’ve watched this year. They picked a hell of a day to have the worst game of the season.
Sally
And furthermore, it is ridiculous that we are relying on the courts to stop this. It is slow, expensive, resource sucking for Dems to have to bring litigation. Also a win for them.
There is a real possibility that they will ignore the courts. Who’s going to force them to obey court orders, injunctions? We have already seen Vance’s answer to this. People like McConnell just say this is what the American people voted for, and shrug helplessly. They did, though they probably didn’t know it.
The IRL demonstration of Gov. Walz saying, you might not be interested in politics, but politics is interested in you.
During the first term, the court said, oh it’s up to congress to impeach him if he’s done something wrong, not us. The R’s said, oh it’s up to the voters to decide, not us. And the voters said, well he obviously didn’t do anything wrong because he wasn’t barred by the courts or by the Senate, so okey-dokey then
This is all the fault of the republicans, who support all of this.
I’ll stop now!
cain
@Soprano2:
I wouldn’t. I certainly would not give any of these people the importance of asking them anything.
Right now everything is mostly talk, nothing has changed at the moment other than the Feds and people on the edges getting it. Let’s see when they actually do the tariffs and everything is officially on paper and being executed.
Once all this stuff actually happens, it’s not worth doing anything.
Right now, the
Sister Golden Bear
@J. Arthur Crank: Narcissists and bullies think everyone else is a non-player character without agency. They’re invariably surprised when neither proves true.
NotMax
Could you provide one concrete example?
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@NotMax:
Best he can do is some word salad on “Truth” Social
Ohio Mom
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): Yes, it is all those big investors — banks, pension funds, etc. — I am still waiting on to put their feet down. Maybe they are doing something behind the scenes?
Peale
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): I feel better that I’m sure DOGE has an expert in government finance who can explain that “NO. Series EE Savings bonds are not a double dose of “Equity”.
Peale
@Ohio Mom:
This just creates topsy turvy world where the progressives are the ones who are trying to save the FBI and the CIA. And of course in 2009, we’re all like “jump! Bankers. Jump.” and now we’re like “Don’t jump, you fools!”
Jay
https://nitter.poast.org/JuliaDavisNews/status/1888637181633110436#m
Scout211
CNN says
Welp, it finally happened. Trump has finally announced an edict that doesn’t make me scream. I didn’t think it would ever happen.
So long, penny. You and I were friends back in my youth but you mean nothing to me now. I really have no use for you, except for the memories. Rest in peace my former friend.
And welcome everyone, to the new era of pricing. There will be no items sold for the traditional .99, 1.99, etc. It’s the end of a long, long, era of the price tags ending in 9.
Goodbye, dear penny. Sorry, but I’m not sad to see you go.
Spanky
@Baud: I’ve been looking into this myself, and it turns out I don’t need to pay any taxes at all! Who knew?
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Scout211:
I don’t remember headlines of “Biden instructed X to do Y” being a thing as they are with Trump. Don’t these changes have to go through public comment periods and shit?
And if Trump can simply instruct the Treasury to halt penny production (assuming the president could legitimately always do that at any time), why didn’t we ever get the Tubman $20 bill?
ETA: Never mind, I looked it up on Wiki:
Melancholy Jaques
@J. Arthur Crank:
He knows exactly what money is: the power to indulge his whims & hurt people he doesn’t like, all with no accountability. The mystery is why he wasn’t a rabid Trumpster from the beginning.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Ohio Mom:
We can only hope.
@Peale:
LOL
tobie
@Jay: Whoah…wasn’t VOA supposed to be Kari Lake’s sinecure after she lost a statewide election in Arizona for a second time?
rikyrah
Congratulations to the Eagles 👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾🙌🏽
Jay
@tobie:
Diaper Don appointed her to the role,
But Apartheid Clyde is the President, Diaper Don is just the First Lady.
rikyrah
It was so Black….it made me 😊 😊
College Student (@ColIegeStudent) posted at 8:52 PM on Sun, Feb 09, 2025:
Kendrick Lamar’s Super Bowl LIX halftime performance was a masterful blend of music and symbolism, reflecting on American culture, personal rivalries, and his artistic journey. The show commenced with actor Samuel L. Jackson, portraying “Uncle Sam,” introducing Lamar, setting a tone that intertwined patriotism with critical reflection.
Throughout the performance, Lamar employed patriotic symbols to offer a nuanced critique of American society. Dancers donned red, white, and blue attire, and at one point, they formed an American flag shape, visually representing national identity. Jackson’s interjections, labeling the performance as “too loud, too reckless, too ghetto,” highlighted societal stereotypes and challenges faced by Black artists. This narrative was further emphasized when Jackson, as Uncle Sam, questioned Lamar’s understanding of “the game,” prompting the rapper to launch into “HUMBLE.,” a track that delves into themes of pride and humility.
A significant moment was Lamar’s performance of “Not Like Us,” a track widely recognized as a diss aimed at fellow rapper Drake. The song’s lyrics, particularly the line referencing “A-minor,” were underscored by Lamar’s choice of jewelry—a necklace featuring a lowercase “a”—serving as a subtle yet pointed nod to the rivalry.
Lamar was joined by SZA for renditions of “Luther” and their acclaimed duet “All the Stars.” His attire also carried symbolic weight; he wore a custom leather varsity jacket emblazoned with “Gloria,” referencing a track from his 2024 album “GNX.” The jacket also featured the “PGLang” logo, representing his creative company, and the word “Compton,” honoring his hometown.
The performance’s visual elements were rich with symbolism. Lamar performed atop a black Buick GNX, a nod to his album and personal history. The choreography and staging, including formations resembling a tic-tac-toe board, added layers of meaning, inviting viewers to reflect on themes of strategy, competition, and societal structures.
At the conclusion of Kendrick Lamar’s Super Bowl LIX halftime performance, the phrase “GAME OVER” was prominently displayed, serving as a multifaceted symbol. Primarily, it was interpreted as a decisive statement in his ongoing rivalry with fellow rapper Drake. By ending his set with “Not Like Us,” a track widely recognized as a diss aimed at Drake, and following it with the “GAME OVER” message, Lamar appeared to declare his perceived victory in their feud.
Additionally, the “GAME OVER” display can be seen as a broader commentary on the challenges and adversities Lamar has faced and overcome in his career. Throughout his performance, themes of resilience, societal critique, and personal triumph were evident. The final message encapsulated his journey, signaling the end of a significant chapter and asserting his dominance in the music industry.
Furthermore, the phrase aligns with the video game motif present in the performance’s staging and choreography. This theme not only added a visual layer to the show but also symbolized Lamar’s navigation through the complexities of the music industry and societal expectations, ultimately emerging victorious.
In essence, the “GAME OVER” proclamation served as a powerful and multifaceted symbol, reflecting both personal and professional triumphs, and marking a definitive statement in Lamar’s narrative.
https://t.co/REC57bSIrv
(https://x.com/ColIegeStudent/status/1888782983936823334?t=p3WKVl32SzX81B0IsRySFA&s=03)
Ohio Mom
@Scout211: My first question is, Does Trump have the authority to do this?
My second question is, what about sales taxes? In my county, it’s 7.5%. If you buy something that is taxable and costs $1, with tax it’s $1.08.
This just made me realize, Hey, where is that extra half a cent going? Though if you spend $2, the tax makes it $2.15.
It also makes me ask, now am I going pay 10 cents on a dollar? That’s 2 or 2.5 cents more than I paid before. A regressive tax just got more regressive.
Now I hate pennys too but since I charge almost everything these days, I hardly see one anymore.
So once again, it’s a Nope for me on a Trump idea.
Jay
@Ohio Mom:
Canada killed the penny years ago. Stores round up, or round down. $4.99 = $5, $1.33 = $1.30
BTW, it costs more to make a penny, than a penny
As of 2023, $0.0307 per penny.
I guess DOGEdipshits actually found some waste at Treasury, (snark).
MagdaInBlack
Listening to Kara Swisher on Ezra Klein’s podcast, talking about the “radicalization” of elon.
Interesting and infuriating at the same time
eta: his metaphor for us is anthills, as in: you don’t worry about anthills when you’re building a road.
*sigh
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Jay:
Just to note, the director of VOA is not appointed or nominated by the POTUS, according to Wikipedia
Melancholy Jaques
@Ohio Mom:
If memory serves, the US Mint officials have been trying to get rid of the penny for years.
Jay
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):
As we have seen, rules, laws and norms in the US no longer really apply.
oldgold
@Ohio Mom: No he does not.
Article I, Section 8, Clause 5 is known as the coinage clause. It gives Congress the exclusive power to coin money.
In McCulloch v Maryland (1819) the Supreme Court interpreted clause 5 as giving Congress the sole authority to regulate every aspect of United States currency.
NotMax
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
Pravda social.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Jay:
I don’t believe that and I demand that they apply and will do everything in my power to make sure that they do. And so should everyone else
Jay
@oldgold:
Supreme Court rulings and The Power of Congress, how quaint.
Jay
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):
How many Divisions do you have?
MagdaInBlack
@Jay: Ya made me laugh
(not a happy laugh)
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Jay:
I don’t think comments like these are useful. Sorry, Jay
MagdaInBlack
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): oh here we go. again.
honestly, I rarely pie anyone, but you won.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@MagdaInBlack:
Please don’t do that
Ohio Mom
@Jay: I’m not talking about prices but sales taxes, which will certainly go up to the nearest nickel. Sure, just a few cents extra here, and another few cents there but it adds up.
From a recent AARP article, a reminder that there are ten states that tax food: “For example, Mississippi taxes food at 7 percent, the highest rate in the nation. A $200 grocery bill there costs an extra $14 in state taxes.”
You can’t charge 7% on a dollar, you have to charge 10 Cents. Do you charge 10 cents a dollar up to $10, then the tax is 70 cents? Bit what about $11 in sales?
Anyway, if 7% turns into 10%, that $214 in groceries turns into $220. You are really hitting poor people, which we have a lot of in the country.
Jay
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):
If they piss you off, that is their intent.
Anger has a value.
Jay
@MagdaInBlack:
Bitter laughter is still a form of laughter, sometimes it is all we can do.
YY_Sima Qian
@sab:
@Jay:
@Peale:
The political economies if the Eurozone & Japan aren’t exactly stable or strong. The CPC regime is not interested in making the Yuan freely convertible (a prerequisite for the Yuan to become the reserve currency) as that would require it to relinquish much of the sovereign control over exchange rates & capital flows.
There are both exorbitant privileges & exorbitant costs associated with/ having the global reserve currency, winners & losers, economic distortions. The Dollar Hegemony has allowed the US to run up fiscal & trade deficits that would have long collapsed other economies, because the Fed can just make USD out of thin air & there is global demand for it. The US trades tangible goods from the ROW for paper claims. USD as the global reserve currency necessarily means strong Dollar, which boosts US living standards by making imports cheap. OTOH, it has been a key contributing factor to the over-financialization of the US economy. Strong dollar favors the globally mobile capital owners at the expense of far less mobile labor, favors financial services & financial engineering over manufacturing & the real economy.
If the Dollar Hegemony is to fall, a basket for reserve currencies (in the mold of the IMF’s Special Drawing Right, which currently includes the USD, the Euro, the Pound, the Yuan & the Yen, at different weights) might make more sense. Or, as a more extreme scenario, may be even a return to the Gold Standard. (Guess which country has been hoarding gold & every other commodity conceivable since the start of the pandemic?)
Ohio Mom
@oldgold: Thanks. It fits Trump’s M.O., blathering about something trivial, at least trivial in comparison with everything else a president has to take care of (ideally), and having that blathering be about something that’s (should be) off limits to his office.
I know pennies cost more than a cent to make but I wonder if in this age of credit and payment apps if the amount of pennies we need to mint has gone down. The price to make a penny wouldn’t change of course but we might be spending less overall.
MagdaInBlack
@Jay: Speaking of dark and bitter: Kicking Horse Kick Ass has become the darkness of choice here.
Jay
@MagdaInBlack:
Sleepiness dies in the Darkness. : )
Leto
Have we covered this?
Trump administration orders consumer protection agency to stop work, closes building
Jay
@Ohio Mom:
Here, it’s price plus tax, that you pay on, rounded up or rounded down, the Store pays the Government the full tax, not the Customer.
There is however a significant fraud element. “Virtual Companies” buy and sell “virtual products”, like cell phone minutes in a circle of “Virtual Companies”.
They then claim the rebate on buying for the taxes paid when buying.
Every country that has a sales tax applied to all the supply chain layers have this problem. Basically, digital transactions where no actual money changes hands, can net millions of dollars in “tax rebates”.
MagdaInBlack
@Leto: Right now, if you go to the main page, it has a 404, but if you click any of the sub-categories, they work. Weird?
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@MagdaInBlack:
I’m sorry
Geminid
And so it begins: the Resistance. From Oil Price Magazine, February 8:
It’s not the environmentalists, or a handful of “bold-not-feckless” Democratic politicians who are jamming Trump. It’s the oil industry.
According to Oil Price, with prices hovering a little above $70 a barrel, production companies will not increase drilling unless and until prices rise. They have to drill some just to maintain current levels, and in 2024 they increased production by 300,000 bbl/day nationwide. But production increased by 900,000 bbl/day the year before.
Producers are slowing down new drilling because they fear a price drop. At 13+ million bbl/day, the US is by far the worlds biggest producer. But the US is also a high cost producer and the oil companies really don’t want oil prices dropping below a relatively high break-even point.
But patriotic oil drillers could still heed Trump’s declaration of energy emergency. Maybe a gathering of West Texas independent producers will form the MAGA Oil League and issue the Midland Manifesto:
This might not happen though.
So maybe Trump’s good friends among the Gulf Arab states will help him out. Trump asked them to in his recent speech to the Davos gathering. But apparently, they also are resisting. Oil Price Magazine, February 6:
Still, if Trump wants lower gasoline prices he has another tool left in his toolbox. It’s a monkey wrench, and it looks like he’s using it on the economy. Trump is instigating a recession.
Jay
https://mockpaperscissors.com/2025/02/09/jekyll-and-hide-n-seek/
All the .GOV sites are archived.
Ramona
@cmorenc: After saying to myself WT-Holy-F! to myself, I found myself chuckling grimly at the thought of all the flaring ulcers of those Big Business Trump-asskissers – too bad that the rest of us will suffer as well.
wjca
Emailing my financial advisor to inquire about moving some assets into euro-denominated (and based) securities. Various risks there, too, of course. But perhaps less.
Ohio Mom
@Geminid: At this point, a recession is overdetermined. Is there anything Trump is doing that won’t hurt the economy?
Well, maybe the Kennedy Center thing won’t have much economic impact.
Jay
@Ohio Mom:
ReThugs have the House, Senate and Apartheid Clyde has the White Supremacy House, so a US Recession is guaranteed.
How bad, who knows?
Nettoyeur
So Trump thinks 10 yr bond interest is too high. And then he starts talking about not servicing US debt, ie, bonds. That kind of talk pretty much guarantees that the 10 year bond rates goes up. And if Trump keeps on talking like that, rates will go sky high. What a f€€king moron.
Jay
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._economic_performance_by_presidential_party
sentient ai from the future
@wjca: as a piker with only a brokerage account, if you could ask if ETFs like BNDX provide enough exposure to more stable markets, or if currency hedging is a thing to be avoided in a genuine global currency instability situation, and then report what they say here, i would be very grateful.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
Apparently the press interview with the Treasury Bond quite was quite the shit talking about Trump.
25% on steel and aluminum import
Gulf Mexico renamed Golf of America again.
Trump wants to own Gaza personally, or something, and he is going to let other countries develop it, maybe.
And Trump did not look good, and the way his staff and MAGA indulges him is odd. Reminds me of how my family treats my crazy mother.
He when out on the field at one point, sounded like he we being booed, and went home early at the Super Bowl.
Downpuppy
It’s the Social Security Trust Fund’s treasury holdings, and all other intergovernmental debt.
He’s not the first Republican to think of cancelling the trust fund, but maybe the first in a long time to think it’s a new idea.
montanareddog
@Ohio Mom:
In countries that I am familiar with that have abolished the penny, or its equivalent, as a physical coin, the 99 cent price has not disappeared because the rounding happens at the total bill level and only for cash payments.
So if you buy 4 * 99c items you pay 3.95 cash and 3.96 if paying by debit or credit card; you buy 2 * 99c items, 2.00 cash and 1.98 plastic. The rounding gains and losses even out over time.
And the sales tax should work on the same rounding principle. Let’s say you have a basket of items that are mix of 7% and 0% sales tax; your gross bill will be ((1.07 * the net total of 7% items) + (1.0 * the net total of 0% items)) rounded up or down to the nearest 5c
2liberal
Got my social security check on second Monday rather than second Wednesday this month.
TBone
Woke up still celebrating and will be smiling all day long. It’s a Super win for sane people everywhere.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MqJ3p3xkRes
Time to make the donuts!
The Thin Black Duke
I’m glad I’m won’t be seeing that smug evangelical asshole kicker from the Kansas City Chiefs making googly eyes at the Orange buffoon in the White House.
TBone
@The Thin Black Duke: me too hahahaha!
TBone
The Union at the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau put out a wingdinger of a press release before the censors (minions of Elno) disappeared it. *Chef’s kiss!
https://www.wonkette.com/p/this-press-release-from-the-cfpb
Don’t know why Fountains of Wayne popped into my head but I like it!
🎶
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rmqswLKKYyU
TBone
Last night on PCN I watched a PA Superior Court oral argument over the PA Right to Know Law and learned that my old school has a Fascistbook problem involving some School Board members trying to say that their bigoted FB posts discussing, among other things, voting for banning a mural that “promotes” homosexuality ARE PRIVATE hahahaha!
Penncrest School District v. Cagle
https://www.aclu.org/cases/penncrest-school-district-v-cagle
The case caption is an error – the school district is actually Rose Tree Media.
TBone
@TBone: sometimes I learn a lot just by changing the channel.
Geminid
@Ohio Mom: I’m thinking about the severity of the upcoming recession. Trump isn’t just setting up a recession, he’s setting up a bad one, maybe as bad as the one that began in 2008, maybe even worse.
TBone
@Geminid: that would be The Great Depression 2.0
Kay
For CEOs and Bankers, the Trump Euphoria Is Fading Fast
It took less than a month for the second Trump administration to cool the enthusiasm of chief executives and dealmakers.
https://www.wsj.com/business/deals/trump-boom-corporate-uncertainty-6383263d?st=J98W6t&reflink=article_copyURL_share
Dopes. They had a great economy and they just had to fuck with it.
Anyway
I was so happy to be able to watch the game without seeing FF’s ugly mug. Seeing Mahomes pout after yet another sack was pretty sweet!
Geminid
@Enhanced Voting Techniques: I read Trump was still flogging his Gaza plan– if it can be called a plan– to reporters on his plane flight to New Orleans.
Jordan’s King Hussein will visit Washington tomorrow; we’ll see what he has to say.
Turkish President Erdogan is headed for Malaysia, but before he left Erdogan weighed in on Trump’s plan in typically blunt fashion. From Ankara-based Clash Report:
This is pretty much what the Saudis and Emiratis have said, just in fewer words.
Baud
@Geminid:
The Fellowship of the Orb is splintering.
Baud
@Kay:
If only the white working class could get to the same place.
sab
@Kay: Tax cuts aren’t all that useful after a drastic cut in income. Mark Cuban did warn them.
WereBear
You know what? We still don’t know Peak Wingnut, but we might be nearing Peak Stupid.
FNYT and Our Own Pitchbot did a convergence. There’s only so much lipstick in the world…
Chris Johnson
@cmorenc: They have to do that while shouting down entities like the New York Times, which is already positioning itself to back Trump’s play by saying,
“YES, the idiot did it! Turns out he’s a complete asshole and has ruined the country! Country officially ruined, will never be good again, dollar collapses, save yourselves! We GUARANTEE we are not just continuing to serve the same interests we served while putting Trump in office so he could do exactly this which we are now making sure everyone believes he has actually, successfully done!”
Be careful out there. There’s some bullshit out there and no mistake.
Chris Johnson
@TBone: It’s going to be weird to see the MSM suddenly, neck-snappingly pivot from ‘everything is fine and great’ to ‘everything is ruined forever’.
The NYT has apparently already started.
Gloria DryGarden
@Baud: I replied to you late on the Sunday morning thread; something you said caught my interest. I said I’d make my whole comment squish into a poem, and I did it.
-Something about excellence, sort of, in the context of the rest of the dismantling-
That’s up, on blue sky. 3 tankas.
Soprano2
@Kay: Did these idiots sleep through the first FFOTUS administration? They must have, to not expect chaos.
Princess
@YY_Sima Qian: They think buying cheap Canadian steel and lumber and oil and electricity and making things to sell out of it is doing Canada a huge favour too, so this tracks.
Geminid
Also from Clash Report:
Kalin met with two different Iranian officials because,while President Pezeshkian and his intelligence minister are nominally in charge of government policy, the Supreme National Security Council’s secretary is Supreme Leader Khameini’s representative and Khameini’s people call the shots.
Neither country will provide official readouts for these meetings, but I’d really like to know what was said. Iran and Turkiye have a complex, “frenemy” relationship and share a ~550 mile border. They are the largest countries in the Middle East besides Egypt, with populations of 85 million each.
Iran and Turkiye were at odds in Syria throughout that nation’s long civil war. The war ended with the Turkish-backed rebels throwing Iran’s Revolutionary Guard Corps forces out. Some IRGC generals are making big talk about reviving their influence in Syria, and I expect Kalin delivered a message to his counterparts: don’t try it.
prostratedragon
@Ohio Mom:
Was talking to someone last night and noticed the same tendency, in both of us, to hit fff in about a measure.
Citizen Dave
@kindness:
I post this occasionally–almost as if they are doing Putin’s bidding. I’m with you. The patriotic Republicans who are left better wake the fuck up.
Citizen Dave
@Kay: Didn’t read it yet, but came to say that Chase CEO Jamie Dimon can go F himself for cozying up to trump.
Princess
@rikyrah: Lamar is a genius.
WereBear
@wjca: I did that during the W Recession. Worked well, at least no losses :)
lowtechcyclist
@cain:
Buy with what, though? That theory works great if they’re sitting on safe infestments. But if the interest isn’t being paid on Treasuries, Treasuries tank, and everything else tanks with it. Nothing’s safe. Except gold, maybe.
Geminid
@Geminid: Ibrahim Kalin is an interesting guy. Kalin is around 50 years old. He earned a PhD in International Relations from George Washington University and taught at a Massachusetts college for several years before returning to Turkiye.
President Erdogan tapped Kalin to lead the MIT when he moved Hakim Fidan up to Foreign Minister in June of 2023, after Erdogan won reelection. These were smart moves. Erdogan’s strengths are those of a domestic politician, and he is no diplomat. Now Fidan, Kalin and Defense Minister Yasar Gular give Erdogan a very strong national security team.
Wikipedia tells me that Kalin’s hobby is folk music. His performances on a long-necked lute with an unpronouncable name have garnered more than a million views on YouTube.
AM in NC
@Jay: I was just talking last night with a woman from Poland (born in the 1940s) and she was saying how important VOA was to her and her family growing up. How they’d listed to it, with sound quality degraded because it was hard to get the signal. How it was a crack in the wall of lies being spread behind the iron curtain that let a little light of truth in.
And once you see that what they’ve been telling you is LIES, that’s the beginning of the end, she said.
I ask my MAGOP Senators’ staffers when I call them, can you explain to me how ANYTHING the Musk/Trump administration is doing is in ANY way different than what Xi or Putin would be doing if they were in power here?
Destroy American Soft Power by shuttering USAID? – Xi is licking his chops at expanding influence across the globe at US expense.
Destroy the American University system that makes us world-leaders in knowledge discovery and tech translation, attracts the best and the brightest from around the world, and drives our economy? Putin and Xi are cackling at the USA eating its seed corn for no reason at all.
Alienating our closest allies and trading partners by threatening them with trade wars and personally insulting them? Our geostrategic enemies couldn’t have written a better script for Musk/Trump to be mouthing if they’d written it themselves.
Trying to destroy the good faith and credit of the USA?
And shuttering VOA and RFE that counteracts Chinese and Russian propaganda machines to spread the gospel of western capitalism and representative government? Well Xi, and Putin certainly don’t want that, do they?
Tell me, Senate Staffer, how is what Musk/Trump are doing in ANY way different from what Xi or Putin would be doing to undermine the USA? ANYTHING? ANYTHING?
lowtechcyclist
@Sally:
Agreed. After a slow start, I think the Dems have done a good job of hammering on Trump and Musk. But it’s time for them to aim their guns at the Republicans in Congress, who (as you say) could bring all this insanity to a halt in a moment.
Three weeks ago, Biden was still President. All this has happened in three weeks.
AM in NC
@Scout211: Penny is a pain, but now how do you have sales taxes that aren’t either 5% or 10% – bumping from 7% to 10% all at once is a BIG bump! People do still use cash, so this is a real issue that is going to need to be dealt with. Because you KNOW King Musk and Prince Trump have given ZERO thought to it.
And they don’t control states or counties where sales taxes are set. So they are forcing either starvation of revenues by dropping the tax back to the nearest multiple of 5. Or a big jump in taxation by raising it to the next.
Or am I totally missing something here?
lowtechcyclist
@Melancholy Jaques:
AIUI, most of his wealth is in Tesla shares. Which will tank further and faster than just about anything in a recession, because what’s propping them up , as best as I can tell, is fanbois using their spare cash to pay their insanely inflated prices. When they’re short of cash and get desperate enough to cash in their Tesla shares, that stock is gonna plummet.
prostratedragon
@Geminid:
Found him: “Sen Benimsin Ben Seninim”. Very calming.
lowtechcyclist
@Jay:
Can we try to avoid using the female gender as an insult?
sab
@lowtechcyclist: Our actual first lady has seemingly bailed from the whole public side of the presidential project.
It is sad that our actual First Gentleman is Trump not Emhoff.
ETA Edit to correct capitalization.
sab
@lowtechcyclist: If my senators, both very junior, ever clear their phone messages I will call them. Wimpiest senators ever. ( Ohio)
AM in NC
@lowtechcyclist: Yeah. I completely get that turning Trump into a MRS. Musk is a great way to hurt his ego. But I hate reinforcing that calling a man a woman is obviously the WORST possible insult in the entire universe, and reinforcing the gender hierarchy: Man head/Woman subordinate.
So I use King Musk and Prince Trump. It gets in the authoritarianism hit and also that Trump is a subordinate weakling without reinforcing negative gendered stereotypes.
sab
@AM in NC: I applaud your approach.
lowtechcyclist
@Ohio Mom:
When my wife and I were in Europe a couple times back in the aughts, the Euro equivalent of the penny had all but disappeared from circulation. Prices still were down to the penny, but the total would be rounded to the nearest nickel if you were paying in cash. So if your total came to 6.73 Euros, you’d pay 6.73 Euros if you charged it, and 6.75 Euros if you paid cash.
Presumably it would work that way here as well if the penny were withdrawn from circulation.
As far as sales tax goes, it doesn’t really need to be handled any differently than now, because it’s not like you pay it separately. Suppose you’re paying 7.5% sales tax on a $5.73 purchase. Your sales tax would be $0.43, so your total would be $6.16 if you paid by credit, and either $6.15 or $6.20 if you paid cash. The $0.43 would be added to the total of sales tax receipts that the store would have to transfer to the state. And since that would be an electronic transfer, the amount would be down to the penny there.
NeenerNeener
@AM in NC: I prefer to refer to Trump as “Regional Governor”. It implies less permanence, at least to me. Musk can replace him at any time by firing him and appointing a different Regional Governor.
apocalipstick
@randy khan: And since almost every investor holds some amount of Treasuries…
Another Scott
@wjca: My thinking about changes like that is always – when do I get back in, and what is the alternative?
The S&P500 cannot go up 20% a year forever, but what is the alternative? Is 3% a year better than something else?
I haven’t found a good answer yet, and market timing never works. Thus far, I continue to be in the S&P and in a broad corporate bond fund. Dollar cost averaging FTW! Maybe I’ll change my mind sometime soon, dunno.
Not financial advice, etc, etc.
Good luck!!
Scott.
Best wishes,