Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Proof that we need a blogger ethics panel.

… gradually, and then suddenly.

Is it negotiation when the other party actually wants to shoot the hostage?

This has so much WTF written all over it that it is hard to comprehend.

The real work of an opposition party is to hold the people in power accountable.

We cannot abandon the truth and remain a free nation.

Let’s bury these fuckers at the polls 2 years from now.

Republicans do not pay their debts.

The Giant Orange Man Baby is having a bad day.

Not all heroes wear capes.

We need to vote them all out and restore sane Democratic government.

When we show up, we win.

The words do not have to be perfect.

Incompetence, fear, or corruption? why not all three?

You can’t attract Republican voters. You can only out organize them.

Oppose, oppose, oppose. do not congratulate. this is not business as usual.

Today in our ongoing national embarrassment…

My years-long effort to drive family and friends away has really paid off this year.

It’s pointless to bring up problems that can only be solved with a time machine.

I have other things to bitch about but those will have to wait.

Live so that if you miss a day of work people aren’t hoping you’re dead.

White supremacy is terrorism.

Baby steps, because the Republican Party is full of angry babies.

You’re just a puppy masquerading as an old coot.

You are here: Home / Foreign Affairs / GOP Venality Open Thread: Pete Hegseth Is No Winston Churchill

GOP Venality Open Thread: Pete Hegseth Is No Winston Churchill

by | 134 Comments

This post is in: , ,

(An unfinished draft of this post was published earlier — I got distracted by a message from my doctor. Yesterday’s chest xrays confirm that the virulent bronchitis I’ve been battling since December has become pneumonia, but the good news is that the antibiotics they gave me can cure pneumonia.)

Granted, Churchill was also a self-centered, racist ‘functional alcoholic’ — but when push came to shove, he didn’t argue there was no business value in resisting Hitler just to defend a bunch of Jews and queers and other untermenschen.

And the GOP congressmen who chose to enable Hegseth, in the face of all evidence of his unfitness, fall under the Christian definition of ‘whited sepulchres‘.

Why is this dimwitted drunk sex pest I hired for a key position making mistakes

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— Domestic Enemy Hat (@kenwhite.bsky.social) February 14, 2025 at 2:54 PM


He fucking voted to confirm Hegseth. So sick of these assholes.

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— Charles Johnson (@charles.littlegreenfootballs.com) February 14, 2025 at 8:32 AM

The entire Trump Administration is proof that you can, in fact, shoot values. Or at least have them shot.

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— Patrick Chovanec (@prchovanec.bsky.social) February 13, 2025 at 5:53 PM

the reason Nazis propped up Petain in Vichy France is that he was a war hero who commanded the loyalty of the French military. the reason the Business Plot tried to recruit Smedley Butler is that Smedley Butler was a war hero who commanded the loyalty of American veterans.
Pete Hegseth is nobody.

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— rev. howard arson (@theophite.bsky.social) February 15, 2025 at 5:02 PM

Reader Interactions

134Comments

  3. 3.

    frosty

    I’ll give Hegseth this: He looks like he’s straight out of Central Casting. Strong jaw, good hair. Can bring a glass to his mouth with one hand and without spilling anything.

    An awesome choice for SecDef. /s/

  5. 5.

    lowtechcyclist

    Too bad Buffett’s not still around to write a theme song for Hegseth:

    “Why don’t we get drunk and screw Ukraine?”

  6. 6.

    hitchhiker

    I guess we decided that it really doesn’t matter if people are competent. Or sober. Or educated. Or empathetic. Or prudent. Or capable. Or honest.

    I guess all these years of sneering at “elites” might not have been the best idea.

  7. 7.

    Kay

    Maybe it’s good media told them they were the natural rulers and would reign forever. Complacent. Over confident. They’re making the far Right look really, really bad, which is good.

    Don’t believe your own captured press, is the lesson there. Because the NYT thinks you’re all masters of the universe doesn’t mean you are.

  8. 8.

    different-church-lady

    Senate Armed Services Chair Roger Wicker says Pete Hegseth made a “rookie mistake” by calling a return to Ukraine’s pre-war borders “unrealistic.” “I am the dumbest shit you can possibly imagine.”

  10. 10.

    Kay

    I know it’s bad but I think it’s funny he’s drinking already. This is just the beginning. These people are much, much worse than the Trump I low quality hires.

    Mediocre hires can get better, but bad hires never get better, only worse. He’ll get worse. Shoulda put him on a probationary period.

  12. 12.

    Kay

    The Onion had that the bartender revoked Hegseth’s security clearance.

    Manly men who are in control! A bunch of fucking lunatics.

  14. 14.

    Spanky

    @Kay: Since Trump hates drunks I’m kinda morbidly curious how long he’ll last.

    OK, “morbidly” no, “gleeful” yeah.

  21. 21.

    Kay

    @Spanky:

    Was he slurring when he made all those mistakes on Ukraine that Republicans now have to cover for?
    Look out, ladies. When Pete gets drunk Pete assaults women.

  23. 23.

    bbleh

    I’d guess neither the Orange Guy nor Prime Minister Musk nor the agents of Project 2025 cares at all about Hegseth’s drinking or incoherence or the fact that he’s widely disliked by the professional military, so long as he (1) keeps attracting media attention (which inevitably will be favorable from right-wing media and ambivalent from most MSM), (2) follows orders, however strategically incoherent or even self-contradictory, and (3) doesn’t make the Orange Guy look bad.  Useful disposable lightning-rod.  See also Vice President Mini-Me, Li’l Marco, RFKJr, and on down the line.

    And of course, if he DOES make the Orange Guy look bad, he’ll be disowned in a heartbeat and righteously Cast Out by the same Republican choir that was singing his praises only a few weeks ago.

    Admittedly this may pose a problem when it comes to running a department with 2 million active-duty, guard and reserve and 800 thousand civilians, comprising the most powerful military force on the planet, but this is government by whim, so …

  24. 24.

    Josie

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: ​
     There is a sense of unreality to it all. It’s as if I will wake up at some point and it will all go away, But I’m sure it’s a nightmare for some who are already affected and will become one for most of us at some point,
    I have lived a very long time, but I have never experienced anything even close to what is happening to us.

  25. 25.

    Petorado

    @Spanky: I’m feeling like Trump is furious he suffered the embarrassment of losing his re-election and wants to torch the country as revenge. This is his “Nice little country ya got there … “ moment.

  26. 26.

    Almost Retired

    @Kay:  it’s hard for me to believe that he was drinking scotch on camera, but I’m at a loss to think of another beverage of that color.  Are there Kool-aid flavors I am not aware of?

  27. 27.

    bbleh

    @Petorado: AFTER he cashes in.  Which, of course, is only what he’s due, having been so grievously WRONGED before.

    This whole mob-boss protection-racket thing he’s trying to do with Ukraine, though, is just despicable.  “So, first of all, you OWE me…”

  29. 29.

    Petorado

    @bbleh: Yeah.  His whole foreign policy agenda is “Be the world’s biggest A-hole. Well, maybe the biggest after Putin.”

  30. 30.

    frosty

    @Almost Retired: It’s not just the color of the beverage. It’s the amount and the glassware. You don’t sip iced tea out of a rocks glass.

    ETA: It might not have been scotch. Bourbon and rye are two other possiblities!

  37. 37.

    Kay

    @Almost Retired:

    I just love the fanciful notion Republicans have that he will get better. No he won’t. This is the high point.

    He’s a rapist who admires war criminals and completely unqualified for this job.  There’s no upside with this person.

  39. 39.

    bbleh

    Oh come on, it’s just Diet Coke, like the Leader drinks, a little flat and thinned out from the ice.  Yeah!

  40. 40.

    Steve LaBonne

    @Kay: The upside is insuring that almost everyone in the military hates Trump for foisting this creature on them.

  41. 41.

    Jeffro

    I do love Wicker’s fake astonishment that this is not turning out well.

    “What?  3 days later and the former Fox News host is not remotely doing well as the United States of America’s Secretary of Defense?  Why…that’s just unpossible!”

    (side note: America has 330M+ citizens so lets say even just half of them, 165M, were the ‘pool’ that trumpov could have drawn from for such an important post.  Filter for anything you want – even just raw trumpov loyalty – and the best he could come up with was…Pete Hegseth?

    ETA: in a way, I’m echoing what Kay said at #37…Hegseth checks allll the boxes.  Ok with war crimes?  Ok with sexual assault?  Thoroughly compromised?  Good at boot-licking?

    He’s like the teeny-tiny place where all the worst circles converge in a Venn diagram of scum and villainy (outside of Mos Eisley, of course)

  47. 47.

    Doc Sardonic

    @MagdaInBlack: Yeah, I make it a point to make sure my water is served in an 8 oz lowball glass and is tinted just right for the lighting to confuse everyone.

  49. 49.

    Jeffro

    @MagdaInBlack: that’s good!  Let them continue to make that excuse in various settings, lightings, etc.

    (meanwhile, we’ll all keep hoping he keels right on over)

  51. 51.

    Scout211

    Oh come on, people!  It was apple juice.  Doesn’t he look like all the manly men who drink app . . . oh shit.  Never mind.

  56. 56.

    MagdaInBlack

    @rikyrah: FFS, there was a meme going around of Kamala having a glass of wine while playing some game with her nieces…..AFTER the damned election. Much pearl clutching over that.

  57. 57.

    Scout211

    (Fake) Quote on X:

    Pete Hegseth: “Everyone is saying I was drinking scotch at the podium in Brussels. It’s NOT TRUE. It was bourbon.”

  58. 58.

    laura

    It’s hard for me to not reminisce about Pat Tillman and what he would have made of his life after his voluntary military service. le sigh

  60. 60.

    Viva BrisVegas

    We’ve already been down this road with Trump. It was called Afghanistan.

    Excluding your ally from negotiations? Check.

    Making concessions to a terrorist aggressor for no apparent advantage? Check.

    Making demands of your ally that they cannot meet? Check.

    GTFO? Check.

    The beauty of the Afghan scenario was that the blame for the debacle created by Trump fell on his successor. This time around the beauty is that Trump is (probably) not running for re-election, so he doesn’t need to give a flying F.

    Also, the Kurds just stepped in to say hello and thanks for all the help.

  61. 61.

    JoyceH

    Earlier I’d thought the talk of his drinking at a press conference were jokes, but dang! Geez, guy, vodka is at least clear.

  62. 62.

    YY_Sima Qian

    The Singaporean Defense Minister is not mincing words:

    Remarks By Minister For Defence Dr Ng Eng Hen at the BMW Foundation Herbert Quandt Annual Leaders Roundtable, “On The Horns Of A Trilemma: Geopolitical Recession, Technological Leadership And Energy Security” On 14 Feb 2025
    SPEECHES | 15 Feb 2025 07:00 (GMT+8)

    …

    For Asia, the US in the last 60 years since President John F. Kennedy’s inaugural speech – that one form of tyranny (colonial control) will not be replaced by an iron tyranny, that was the moral legitimacy in which US presence was in our region. US has now willy-nilly – the image has changed from liberator to great disruptor to a landlord seeking rent.

    …

  63. 63.

    satby

    Coming back to say best wishes for a full recovery Anne Laurie! Bronchitis turning to pneumonia complicated by asthma had me very sick from the beginning of December ’22 to the beginning of February ’23 too. I didn’t think I’d ever really fully recover, but I did. Hoping the same in short order for you too.

  68. 68.

    Gloria DryGarden

    Anne Laurie,

    wish you a speedy recovery. I’ve had bronchitis, and pneumonia, and sometimes both together. It can be pretty difficult. What got me was the feeling, during pneumonia, of a sword piercing my lungs, yet I didn’t care. With bronchitis, at least I cared and had some fight. I’m rooting for you. May you get your strength back.

    Sending some prayer-type thoughts your way

  69. 69.

    Baud

    Argentine President Javier Milei could face an impeachment trial in Congress, opposition lawmakers said on Saturday, after the libertarian leader touted a cryptocurrency which crashed soon after.

  70. 70.

    satby

    And in an encouraging sign, Kevin Drum put out a normal post, with a chart(!) last night. He didn’t mention his current health status, but he was previously too tired and weak to post much at all, so here’s hoping that shows progress on his fight with pneumonia too.

  71. 71.

    something fabulous

    @Baud: Hey speaking of which (not to you specifically, just made me think of it)– what’s up with South Korea, does anyone know? That… kerfuffle seems to have vanished amongst all our more local kerfufflage.

  72. 72.

    prostratedragon

    @satby:  From what I recall of being in a low state, it probably is very good news that he felt like posting something. And ditto Anne Laurie. Take care, AL, we need you.

  73. 73.

    Geminid

    From Ankara-based Clash Report:

       Senior Ukraine official jokes that to maintain U.S. support, Ukraine would even send a massive shipment of eggs, noting the country’s surplus and rising U.S. prices.

    I assume the “senior Ukraine official” is President Zelensky, speaking off the record. Zelensky plans to visit Turkiye, Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates in coming days.

    This next headline is no joke, but it does illustrate the ineptitude of the new Yankee government:

       Trump administration wants to unfire nuclear safety workers but can’t figure out how to reach them.

    Besides English, Clash Report publishes in Turkish and French. It’s one of several news aggregation sites that achieved wide reach when Russia reinvaded Ukraine in early 2022.

  74. 74.

    Aussie Sheila

    @Kay:

    Indeed. The only thing that can be retrieved from this disaster is exactly that. The best thing the centre left can do is hang every disaster around their necks. Every. Single. Fuck .Up.

    And organise everywhere, even where the centre left doesn’t usually win.

    In a voluntary voting two party  system, running candidates everywhere every time is a must. It’s the difference between a Senate seat and none.

    Just fucking run!

  75. 75.

    Geminid

    @something fabulous: South Korean stories are being being reported somewhere. If you look up “South Korea news” you’ll find articles on South Korean or Asian news sites, maybe international sites like Reuters or AFP (Agence France Press). Many foreign sites have English versions.

  77. 77.

    TBone

    I got pneumonia in third grade from playing out in the snow too long in soaked clothes.  Had to stay home from school for a solid month which was okay by me, but I had like 5 or 6 prescription bottles of liquid meds that I’ll never forget the taste of *shudders…BLECH.  My stepDad (who was still “new” at that time) somehow managed to take the month off from being a cop and stayed home with me.  We really needed that “getting to know you” time.  He of course wasn’t a stranger but that quality time together went a long way.

    Please remember to rest as much as you can, A.L. !

  78. 78.

    Aussie Sheila

    @YY_Sima Qian:

    I am waiting for SE Asian Nations to make their voice heard. Doubtless it will be softly at first. But I have no doubt if the current US administration tries to FA there, they will FO quick smart.

    If those F wits think they can bully and roll around that region, they have a nasty surprise waiting. SE Asia isn’t  Europe.

  79. 79.

    TBone

    What really helped Noah get rid of his awful congestion and profuse nasal discharge was good old fashioned rest, saline solution up his nose, and a cool mist humidifier with the household heat turned up a bit for a more sauna-like atmosphere. He had awful lungs wheezing and loud snoring too.  It was uncomfortable for me (triggered hot flashes), but he’s almost completely uncongested now.

    🎶

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Qt87bLX7m_o

  83. 83.

    Geminid

    The U.S. Navy has put out pictures of the USS Truman carrying out flight operations in the Mediterranean Sea. The aircraft carrier collided with a Turkish owned bulk carrier near Port Said a couple days ago. I think Port Said is at the southern end of the Suez Canal.

    Both ships sustained minor damage. The Truman has a ~100,000 ton displacement while the Besiktas displaces 56,000 tons fully loaded so it was a good thing they did not collide hull-to-hull, but a platform projecting from the Truman knocked over equipment on the Besiktsas’s deck.

  84. 84.

    TBone

    Winston and I share a birthday with Mark Twain.  Also, my track & basketball coach biology teacher granddad smoked Winston until he died at age 91.  He power walked at least a mile every day of his life, way before exercise was “cool.”

  86. 86.

    lowtechcyclist

    @bbleh: ​
     

    “First-rate people hire first-rate people. Second-rate people hire third-rate people.”

    Who do the scum of the earth hire?

    Clowns, fascists, and fascist clowns, apparently.

  87. 87.

    TBone

    I can make it to church today!  But hubby didn’t sleep last night, so I may go it alone.  I’m trying to think up the correct approach to entice him to come along despite his exhaustion.  It’ll take some serious cajoling and promises to be kept.  Hmmm, our church is its own reward, how do I add to it?  Let me count the ways …

    Oh, I know: homemade chocolate cake (Ina Garten recipe called Beatty’s)

  89. 89.

    TBone

    I just remembered my comment here last night with musical accompaniment.  Reminds me of such a night.  I let a male friend drive my Sunbird convertible with brand new convertible top which I’d had replaced along with new white paint.  He SAID he was sober enough (this was a LONG time ago). When we came to a dead end T intersection, he kept going straight through and off road through the chain of a chained-off dirt road.  Chain almost decapitated us but somehow we were spared!  He got the car stuck there in the dark though, and it wasn’t long before I was talking us out of being arrested for Driving While Blind.  The State Trooper let me sit up in the front seat with him while he put my cuffed friend in the back seat.  Somehow, I ended up wearing the Trooper’s hat, and my friend and I were both let go with a stern warning.  I think the Trooper even got the car unstuck.  I drove home hahaha (my dad was still a cop back then and I got away with murder more times than I like to admit).

  92. 92.

    wenchacha

    Maybe it’s the lighting on that drink? I think the amber color could just be his hand around the tumbler. So the drink would be his favorite, gin.

  93. 93.

    sab

    @TBone: It wasn’t  just cops’ kids. My husband recounts stories of his very drunken youthful escapades, and the cops were always driving the young idiots home instead of arresting them or calling and castigating their parents like they do now.

    It always horrified me when he’d tell these stories to his own kids. It almost seemed to be encouraging youthful misbehavior. He himself stopped drinking entirely when they were toddlers.

  94. 94.

    Liminal Owl

    AL, please get well soon. Glad to hear about the antibiotics; may they work speedily and thoroughly.

  95. 95.

    Betty Cracker

    Best wishes for a speedy recovery, Anne Laurie. You are the blog’s stalwart, but to hell with all that noise while you get the rest you need to heal. We’ll be here when you’re feeling better.

  96. 96.

    TBone

    @sab: once, on the way to a Rolling Stones concert in a van with my fellow hoodlums who’d had to siphon gas to get us to Philly, we were pulled over and of course the odor of gasoline was powerful.  They ran us ALL in.  I had some grams of hash in my pocket in a baggie.  The cops had me separated of course (everyone else in the van was male) and said “What’s this?  It looks like mud!  Would you like to flush it down the toilet?” I was escorted to the ladies room and a VERY pissed off Mom had to pick me up at the Barracks.  I ended up hitchhiking to the concert, much to Mom’s dismay.  I can’t believe I survived my misspent yute!

    I have NO good advice to give parents!

  98. 98.

    Professor Bigfoot

    @sab: It’s really a form of police corruption.

    Unavoidable, no one wants to arrest his brother’s kid or his own cousin; but nonetheless it is a corrupt behavior.

    Now, when those same cops have people they WANT to harass (“…your brake light is out…”) it demonstrates the fundamentals of autocracy– when there are people the regime refuses to prosecute and people the regime is EAGER to prosecute.

    Whole lot of people aren’t ready for this unleashed FOP.

  99. 99.

    YY_Sima Qian

    @Aussie Sheila: Outside of the Philippines, Singapore is the US’s closest partner among the ASEAN (which if we recall Hegseth was not aware of when questioned during his confirmation hearing), including on security. For the Singaporean Defense Minister to say out loud what they all have been thinking for some time now (started from the Trump 45 term, which the Biden term did not really tamp down), is quite indicative.

    For now, Marcos, Jr. appears to be trying to hug Trump & MAGA to secured continued backing vis-a-vis PRC’s assertive/coercive posture in the South China Sea, but surely even the Philippines will be looking to hedge now, both by securing more partnerships w/ the likes of Japan, South Korea, Australia, Vietnam & India, but also by stabilizing relations w/ the PRC, as well.

  100. 100.

    JoyceH

    @wenchacha: I never expected him to stop drinking but I thought he’d at least sneak his drinks in private for a while – drinking amber liquid from a rocks glass during a televised press conference feels kinda like he’s mooning the Senate while chanting “neener neener neener!”

  101. 101.

    Professor Bigfoot

    AND GET BETTER SOON, AL!!

    Sleep is good for whatever ails ya; so rest. Whole lotta people out here sending you love and luck.

  102. 102.

    TBone

    @Professor Bigfoot: 🎯

    My privilege was enormous and I know it.

    It is no longer outsized, but I realize that it is still ever present.

    Never talk to the cops like I did in my white privilege.

  103. 103.

    Professor Bigfoot

    @TBone: My ex-nephew was an ex-cop; the stories he told before he decided the cop business was not an industry he wanted to be in…

    Like I said, it’s perfectly understandable, nobody wants to put their friends and relatives in cuffs– okay, ALMOST nobody– but it is indicative of the power of the local policeman.

    Your rights are exactly what the first cop on the scene decides they are.

  104. 104.

    Glory b

    Alena McQuarter, at 12, the youngest NASA intern ever, already has a Masters in Biology and at 15, is the youngest person to be admitted to medical school, has had the funding for her education and research (immunology) cut.

    She’s probably been outed as a DEI hire.

    She has a go fund me, this might be the future of scientific research in the US.

    https://thegrio.com/2024/11/11/history-making-grio-awards-honoree-alena-analeigh-mcquarter-seeks-support-to-continue-her-medical-school-journey/

  105. 105.

    Wilson Heath

    “Hey, AI garbage, give me a video of a sloshed Nazi cosplaying as Neville Chamberlain.”

  106. 106.

    sentient ai from the future

    @Almost Retired: I am being told that they discontinued the poorly-regarded “Peat” flavor some years ago for poor sales.

    if i had the image editing skills i’d mock up a package of it.

  107. 107.

    K-Mo

    @hitchhiker: It’s emblematic of their whole approach to governing.  They will install idiots and incompetents throughout the system, both civilian and military, because they think loyalty to their poorly-conceived ideology is a legitimate job qualification.  These people will do dumb shit on the regular.  And ask this might not be in the top 10 of the destructive and anti-American things they will do.

    As a side note, Hegseth has an addiction.  It’s a disease and he is not in the mend.

  109. 109.

    Princess

    If Hegseth doesn’t want us to think he’s a day drinking alcoholic who can’t go an hour without sauce, he should use the tall tumbler-type glasses one normally uses for water at a podium, and not bring a scotch glass from his office. And switch from whisky to gin or vodka.

  110. 110.

    sab

    @Professor Bigfoot: Husband and I were just discussing that this morning. He went to an urban Catholic high school and a lot of his classmates and some of his best friends grew up to be cops. Even the Democratic ones are still making excuses for Trum: Muskrats running loose in government computers, mass firings of Federal workers, funding cutoffs, collapsing USAID.

    We are terrified, especially for our mixed race grandchildren. We are old and our house is paid for. But they have to figure how to survive in the future.

  111. 111.

    TBone

    @Professor Bigfoot: my privilege as an honorary F.O.P. member vanished when I stopped working in law representing the F.O.P.s  (also my Dad retired before that and I received my second DUI while working doing their collective bargaining, “disciplinary” union defense, and health-related time off with pay issues/disability lawsuits). When I really Found Out was in 2019 when I punched one and ended up in an orange jumpsuit and cold anti-lice shampoo spray.

    I have so many stories of corruption but legally I am sworn to secrecy (“privileged” information).

    Alcohol was a really great painkiller for Lyme until the opioids craze.

  112. 112.

    K-Mo

    @bbleh: It’s always tempting to imagine that all the f ups are part of a brilliant and diabolical plan, and maybe they are.  But let’s not dismiss the possibility that these guys are just dumb and they don’t care about the well being of our country.

  115. 115.

    TBone

    @TBone:

    Personal tragedy and maternal concern drove Paulina Bryan to create LiveLawyerApp, a groundbreaking mobile application. The app connects users with immediate legal representation during police encounters.

  116. 116.

    AM in NC

    @Baud:  Dems should ABSOLUTELY do a widely-publicized “Honoring Defense Secretaries”  event where they set up a podium stocked with a full liquor bar – with a glass front, and start mimicking Pete at the press conference.

    Name it the “Hegseth Memorial Podium” in honor of the first Defense Sec. to need it and don’t say a word.  Just let the visuals of the alcohol and Hegseth’s name do the talking.  And the entire time, you take questions ONLY about Ukraine and the traitorous MAGOP response – bring Churchill’s name in a bunch to really chap Donnie’s ass.

  117. 117.

    YY_Sima Qian

    More on the diplomatic fallout from MAGA fully unmasked at the MSC:

    Finbarr Bermingham
    @fbermingham

    China courts frazzled Europe as Western alliance wavers A thread looking at how Beijing swooped in to try to charm Europe in the face of US hostility in Munich

    Munich was left stunned by the words and deeds of Vance, Kellogg and others The VP told Europe to forget Russia and China, the real enemy was the threat from within. He told them to drop the firewall against far-right parties, then met the leader of the AfD

    Over lunch yesterday, meanwhile, Kellogg stoked further despair by saying Europe would not be included in peace talks, even as European boots would be expected on the ground in Ukraine. Europe getting a raw deal from its supposed closest ally

    In the margins, Beijing was making hay Wang Yi met Scholz, Merz, Baerbock, Rutte, Barrot, Albares, Sybiha, Schallenberg, Lipavsky. On each occasion, he pitched China as a partner to Europe and a friend of the existing order Nothing new, but a msg Europeans could be receptive to

    During a meeting with Kaja Kallas, Wang “emphasised China supports all efforts conducive to peace and supports Europe’s important role in peace talks process” Contrast this with Kellogg’s assertions that Europe should not be involved. A similar msg was delivered to Ukraine

    Wang made a more blatant pitch to Europe during a keynote speech on Friday, where – right after Vance – he said talk of “China attempting to change the [global] order” has gone quiet in light of Trump’s return.

    “Now we don’t see much talk of that because now there is a country that is withdrawing from international treaties and organisations and I think in Europe, you can feel chills almost every day,” the veteran diplomat said.

    While Wang’s language was not new, it resonated in stark contrast with Vance’s. The clear conclusion for many observers was that China sees an opening to improve ties with Europe and, potentially, drive a new wedge in the already fraught transatlantic alliance.

    I had a great chat with Cheng Li, the veteran scholar of US-China relations, who told me: “On China’s side, there’s a great opportunity now that the ideological driven alliance between US and EU is subject to change.”

    The early signs are: after a stormy few years in EU-China ties, some leaders in a Trump-battered Europe might be receptive to Beijing’s advances. “This is a massive victory for China. It is amazing what Trump has delivered to them, in less than a month,” one diplomat told me

    We’ve already seen a shift in tone in von der Leyen’s rhetoric. I understand her team had been shopping around for “new language” on China after Trump’s return. She’s twice now said Europe could deepen trade ties and even “find agreements” with Beijing

    We observed a shift from Merz this weekend too. A month after warning German firms investing in China “involves great risk”, Merz told Wang (per MFA): “Germany firmly supports free trade and supports deepening cooperation between Germany-China + Europe-China”

    A Trump-inspired detente in EU-China ties would mirror events in 2017, when they patched up differences due to their respective US trade wars with Washington. Since then, things have greatly declined, meaning Beijing might struggle to fully take advantage of the situation

    China’s cosy ties with Russia since its invasion of Ukraine in 2022 have damaged nearly all areas of positive engagement with the EU. It’s unclear what would happen EU-China ties if the war ends, but there’s great resentment in parts of Europe for Beijing’s support of Moscow

    They have also clashed extensively on trade, with Europe urging Beijing to take action to tackle industrial overcapacity, which looms as a major threat to European industries, from German carmakers to Danish wind turbine makers. This does not go away just because Trump is back

    I talked to ex US Nato envoy Kurt Volker who said “there’s a much greater awareness in Europe of the threats China poses” compared to 2017. “They have their own sense of the risks… they wouldn’t change that just because they don’t like the way Trump adm speaks to them”

    So the ball is in China’s court to make Europe an offer it cannot refuse. This would represent a sea change in policy, given that Brussels officials regularly complain that Beijing has been in no mood to make concessions for several years.

    Cheng Li told me China “should be sensitive” to Europe’s concerns about its hi-tech industrial prowess “China should open up to European companies and should not dominate one area after another. There’s a complementary need in terms of economic technology development.”

    But, he said, Europe must give something too. Is Europe going to hold the US to the same standards it does China on human rights and other social issues? Europe must be prepared to “turn the page… in light of the American authoritarian tendencies”, if ties are to improve.

    Here is the link to the full SCMP article:

    China courts frazzled Europe as Western alliance wavers
    At Munich Security Conference, top Chinese envoy Wang Yi goes on charm offensive while US leaders berate Europe

    Reading Time: 4 minutes

    Finbarr Bermingham in Munich
    Published: 2:26am, 16 Feb 2025
    Updated: 5:26pm, 16 Feb 2025

  119. 119.

    bbleh

    @K-Mo: Oh I agree entirely — I would not call “do whatever, keep the flies away, and don’t embarrass the Leader” a diabolical or strategic plan.  It’s more like a rule of thumb to help a cadre of blundering idiots survive.

    The Trump people are a thugocracy.  They’re a bunch of dumb mooks with some street smarts and a few clever sociopaths working for them, and it sure looks to me like they’re in smash-and-grab mode, which suggests they know it won’t last long.

    To me, a strategy involves planning beyond the short term.  The Orange Guy has always made a point of saying he doesn’t think ahead, just goes with the moment and figures the rest out later, and I think most — not all, not the Project 2025 leaders, but most — of the people around him are the same.

    If/when he croaks, the whole thing will turn on itself and collapse.  I consider it generally morally abhorrent to wish death on someone, but in this case …

  120. 120.

    Quinerly

    @Almost Retired:

    The drinking at the podium has been debunked. The color was added by someone on line.

    I really dislike the guy. Believe he is a drunk, still a drunk. Will fuck up as a drunk.

    No need for us to fall into any traps of spreading misinformation, though.

  121. 121.

    Raoul Paste

    AL- Sending get-well wishes from another temporary sickie (Covid).  I was vaxxed,  but still somehow got it

  127. 127.

    Another Scott

    Full video of Hegseth.

    At around 22:57 he picks up the glass and starts raising it to his mouth.

    The liquid is clear.

    The tint is a trick of the light and his face / skin color.

    (Pointed out by this comment on reddit.)

    Yet again, suspect every image and video clip on the socials to be misleading or false or worse. Even (or especially) when it matches our priors.

    Hang in there, everyone.

    Best wishes,
    Scott.

  128. 128.

    Shalimar

    @Quinerly: Even if the color was added later, that was a whiskey glass, not a glass anyone has drank water out of since the ’60s.  I find it hard to believe the glass was not chosen deliberately to provoke.

  129. 129.

    WTFGhost

    Hegseth is 100% Neville Chamberlain, who said we should leave the invader in peace, and stop the senseless killing. I mean – “no Winston Churchill” is supremely ironic, given he’s hoping for –

    I can’t remember? Peace with honor? Peace in our time? Peace? A piece of courage that should have been there, torn out of one’s soul, and thrown on the negotiating table?

  130. 130.

    YY_Sima Qian

    @WTFGhost: That’s an insult to Neville Chamberlain. Chamberlain sold out the Czechs (in the worst manner) because the British Empire had not rearmed enough to confront Hitler at the time. He bought time for Britain to implement the rearmament program (that he pushed) inherited & utilized by Churchill.

    He never lived down his choice of rhetorical flourish coming back from Munich, but he was clearly eyed about Hitler & the need to prepare for war.

  131. 131.

    Geminid

    @YY_Sima Qian: Chamberlain did believe he was buying time for rearmament. But by sacrificing Czechoslovakia, he allowed the Germans to gain control of that country’s formidable arms industry, as well as its gold reserves which Hitler badly needed (and which Chamberlain relinquished when Germany took Prague).

    Also, it’s not clear the German Army could have overcome the Czech Army dug in along the hilly Sudetenland. They would have been a much tougher nut to crack than Poland, which Chamberlain went to war over in September of the following year.

    Both the French and Winston Churchill believed at the time that Chamberlain made the wrong choice.

  132. 132.

    Gloria DryGarden

    @Raoul Paste: I understand the vax for Covid makes it so you are less sick, and survive better when you do catch it..

    it doesn’t stop the contagion.

    Am I understanding it cirr3ctly?

  133. 133.

    Geminid

     

     

    @Geminid: I would recommend this book to anyone interested in the run-up to the Second World War: The Deadly Embrace: Hitler, Stalin and the Nazi-Soviet Pact, 1939-1941, Anthony Summers and David Fisher (1988).

    Authors Summers and Fisher begin their narrative with the negotiation of the Munich Pact and continue it through the first weeks of Operation Barbarossa, Germany’s invasion of Russia. Their detailed account of the wary courtship between Hitler and Stalin which resulted in the Ribbentrop-Molotov pact is fascinating, as is the story of their relations during the period between that treaty and the assault on the Soviet Union that broke it. It’s one of the very best history books I have read.

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