I just nuked the last post into orbit because it accomplished nothing and just raised the temperature. I don’t recall the last time, if ever, that I did this, if ever, but now is as good a time as any to start. I try to be the one to cool tempers here and I was decidedly not doing that and instead whipping up hostilities.
I’ll have more thoughts after I have calmed down (I am a heater, as you all know), but I do not know what to do. I don’t have any answers. The country is at an inflection point, and it needs to be all hands on deck right now. I’m a white guy, so yes, I might miss a great deal of so called micro-aggressions. At the same time, I can look at a 48 page book with illustrations and say “Yeah, that’s not a scholarly tome and directed towards younger kids,” as Jeffries himself did. Maybe it isn’t the actually comment by Mistermix himself, but a buildup of events that made that line the final straw for some. Maybe people are being stupid. Maybe people are seeing things that don’t exist. Maybe those things exist and people with my low melanin count miss them. Maybe everyone feels so despondent right now that the only thing we can do is to lash out at each other. I don’t fucking know.
But you do need to understand that like all the commenters here, the front pagers are real people. With real feelings. With real opinions. With different experiences and different intentions. And flawed. And all of them are volunteers. Uncharitable commenter behavior has driven off more talent here than exists at many major magazine publications. And I do not know what to do about it. I try to have a diverse array of opinions on the front page, and have given front page status to people who then just disappeared. I’ve watched dedicated campaigns of a couple people drive off some front pagers. I’d kill to have more black voices on the front page and have tried. I would love to have trans voices on the front page, and tried. I would love to have hispanic voices on the front page and tried. I don’t know what to do. You have any suggestions for someone who wants to write here and put up with all your bullshit, holler.
But I do know this- if any of you think that beating back this administration and their evil will be achieved only with 100% agreement by everyone on everything, you might as well start picking out the soon to be required jackboots on Etsy.
And I am sorry about the 100% fury I exhibited in the post I have deleted, but jesus fuck you all are a vexatious group of pricks.
trollhattan
They are reveling in Democratic Party disarray just as Russia is gleeful over NATO’s internal strife.
Have to level out the flight before you can safely land the plane, and this Chaos Air flight could use a good landing.
Michael Bersin
I slept in this morning. Anything happening?
J. Arthur Crank
I don’t think I have ever been called vexatious before.
I appreciate all of the work that all of the front pagers do. It is sort of a one stop shop for me.
I am generally frustrated with the stupidity around me (nationwide, locally, etc.). I really sympathize with people with public facing jobs.
Old Dan and Little Ann
Well I woke up Sunday morning, with no way to hold my head that didn’t hurt.
Phylllis
@Michael Bersin: Ok, I lol’ed. Needed that.
Suzanne
Rotating tag? Music thread?
Game of Pricks, Guided by Voices
brantl
I would like to hope we can all agree to save the incivility for the Republicans who dearly, clearly deserve it. I don’t think we have to be that disagreeable with each other to make our points. Maybe we can get off of style and onto substance because that’s what matters we can all take style points off of other people as Snark. But we don’t really need to take it off of each other, do we, just to prove how smart we are?
if we don’t have more in common with each other than we have with them, we are really fucked.
kalakal
@J. Arthur Crank:
Believe me, I am so looking forward to retirement
PaulWartenberg
apologies that I contributed to bad takes.
brantl
@brantl: geez, that last guy makes a lot of sense.
eclare
@Old Dan and Little Ann:
Classic. And a perfect fit. My fave is the phrase “cleanest dirty shirt.”
Layer8Problem
Well said, Mr. Cole.
Ohio Mom
Cole is a very judicious blog father. Sending much appreciation and gratitude your way.
Phylllis
@PaulWartenberg: Same here. I’m glad John took that down.
Lurker #42
I have half an idea. I know voting comments and posts are not allowed and won’t ever happen. But hear me out.
What about ONLY allowing down votes. The most down voted posts and comments for the week, the person that was down voted gets to pick a charity and somehow idk maybe we separately fund a weekly kitty that WG or JC does the donation in the name of said commenter or poster.
it’s almost like, a positive way to channel negative energy so even the person being downvoted gets a “win”.
Or ignore me. I’m a lurker after all.
Another Scott
Everyone can get all het up sometimes.
I know that there are only limited things that can be done with the code base as it is. But maybe a small change that might help is increasing the edit timeout from 5 minutes to say 30 minutes?
That would give commenters more chance to revise and extend their remarks, or delete them entirely if they think better of them.
Yeah, it could be abused. ☹️
(Another site I frequent has code that lets one edit their comments from decades ago, but it always lets you see the edits as well. So there are different approaches.)
Thanks for keeping the light on here.
Best wishes,
Scott.
Rusty
Kindness, courtesy, restraint and patience. Events under Trump amd Elon are bad enough, maybe we could try practicing these more with each other.
Professor Bigfoot
I’ve said it before, and I repeat myself here:
I want to believe we simply don’t have those disagreements here; and for those who I “vexate,” it’s driven by being Black in a white supremacist country; and most of my complaining here has been to those who simply cannot see it.
But I do presume everyone here is actually trying, and doing so in good faith; however much it may sometimes seem like I don’t.
Betty Cracker
I think all of the above is happening. I don’t know what to do about it either. I just know it sucks.
narya
I went to my first Quaker meeting this morning; sounds like it was a more peaceful way to spend my time than my usual hang-out-at-Balloon-Juice . . .
eclare
Great post John. I know I was shocked by November, and I have been stunned over the past month. But we’re all on the same team, and looking in the rear view mirror does no good.
Someone posted this very late at night a few days ago, I wish I could remember who. It hit the spot for me.
https://youtu.be/WYm_Xn4Gm0Y?si=ABGjXJpNEWfjF16R
Starfish (she/her)
@Michael Bersin: LOL
chemiclord
I’m just gonna roughly summarize what I said on the previous thread.
We’re not going to have a consensus on what it means to “resist.” The size of the tent we have to build to have a majority prohibits any sort of “grand unified strategy.” That has to be okay. This is the coalition we have, and it’s the only coalition we’re going to have.
sentient ai from the future
@Professor Bigfoot: if it seems like you don’t do this, how much are we expected to believe your words when they conflict with the observed behavior?
Because this sounds a bit like a sheepish apology to me.
Warblewarble
Refelct, Reflect ,Reflect some more, if it stil seems right then post. (even this had to be edited).
chemiclord
However, I do want to add that “respect” isn’t a one way street. Cole has accurately noted that commenter behavior has driven away a lot of “front page” talent… but I’ve witnessed the reverse as well on… other sites, where shitty behavior of front pagers drives good commenters away.
A big part of the reason I’m here is because of that, and I’ll admit, more than a little of MM’s behavior chafed at me for that reason, even as I rationally acknowledged it takes two to tango.
debit
From my very personal point of view: the elected officials are all we have for the year and a half. Hearing that they are worthless and lazy and ineffectual is not going make anyone be less freaked out and scared.
I said in a post below that it feels like July 2024 here. Maybe folks could stop assuming the worst about each other and our representatives. Maybe instead of jumping up and down and screaming either “do something!” or “I told you so!” we could work on actually coming up with a plan to do something.
WaterGirl puts in serious work raising money and identifying worthwhile targets for that money. That’s doing something. How about we identify R district town halls and go all Tea Party on them instead of eating each other alive? What about some coordinated messaging on BlueSky? For fuck’s sake, I am the most pessimistic person I know and even I have hope that we can get some shit done if we stop trying to hurt each other.
cain
I seem to have missed all the brouhaha. I have been on BJ other than superficial look at posts and a few posts here and there.
I went to my 2nd campaign launch of someone running for Beaverton school district board. Happy to see my fellow Dems doing the best they can.
I will be at a 3rd one soon. My wife is directly helping that one and the other one is the husband of a friend of hers.
Other than that I’ve been writing code and prepping for an event for work happening Wednesday
The Thin Black Duke
I’m sorry the MM feels he has to leave, but this brouhaha begs the question why did the POC jackals here feel uncomfortable when Jeffries was being specifically accused of being derelict in his responsibilities? It wasn’t black people that put us in this place.
SuzieC
I must have been off drunk in a ditch somewhere because I missed most of the arguments. That said, Dems of all shapes and sizes desperately need to support each other and welcome our different shades of opinion.
cain
Y’all we can’t stop the feds and it’s going to keep getting worse with Kash Patel being confirmed. The fact that the head of the American gestapo is an Indian is troubling.
But we can work within our small communities and build our resistance from there.
I think we are heading to the point that even maga is feeling threatened.
Lobo
Like having a humor and snark tag, maybe we need a vent tag. One that says to not take it personally the person is here to vent in a “safe” place.
Nukular Biskits
Personally, John, I think you should have left the post up as I agreed with most, if not all, of it. But it is what it is.
And, to reprise what I had posted there:
I’ve been here (mostly as a lurker until the last year or so) for probably at least fifteen years. Balloon Juice is one of my few go-to sources of information, analysis and, yes, entertainment.
I have noticed a trend here with a number of commenters who are unable to accept any criticism, warranted or not, of their Democratic/progressive/liberal heroes … and I’m not sure what anyone can do about it short of outright banning them, something I don’t condone unless they’re being outright trolls.
Unlike MM2 and other front-pagers, what I have to say here has little import. Having said that, however, I’ve gotten to the point I’ve had to add several people to the pie filter, not because I necessarily disagree with what they have to say, but because they’re singularly-focused and keep beating the dead horse into leather. It’s definitely affecting the “quality” of my time spent here.
Again, do I have any answers? No. But this can’t continue.
WereBear
@narya: Welcome, friend.
eclare
@debit:
WaterGirl’s targeted fund raising helped us get those two GA Senate seats. Without Ossoff and Warnock, none of Biden’s agenda would have gotten through Congress.
It’s so important.
AJ of the Mustard Search and Rescue Team
Let’s not give our enemies the satisfaction of getting into it with each other.
Reminder: text, as opposed to a live voice conversation, is a counter productive medium for navigating conflict. It makes things worse more often than it improves things.
Ty John and all the front pagers who make this refuge from the storms 🙏🏻
John Cole
Well the good news is we are running out of people willing to spend hours writing posts only to be told they are stupid, racist, bigoted, or evil because people don’t agree 100%. I guess we can have open threads where you everyone can scream at each other.
Starfish (she/her)
I think that a lot of people are on edge and that living through a pandemic contributed to it.
There are people looking to fight over the smallest of potatoes, and we should resist the impulse to fight over the smallest of potatoes. For example, someone in my community thought I was a bike Nazi because I knew which member of the city council is the hardcore cycling advocate.
I just brought home a young teen in tears about the idea that things are not as good as they were before the pandemic. Someone told him that karate used to be more challenging before, and he feels robbed.
In the current political state, a lot of people feel robbed, and sometimes we need to watch many videos of tortoises who should not have been fed catfood instead of replying to something on the internet.
Seriously, my husband is worried that I am going to order a box of turtles.
debit
@John Cole: *sigh
Professor Bigfoot
@sentient ai from the future: Don’t do what? See white people white peopling and insist on remarking about it?
That’s what I think is WANTED from me, but it ain’t gonna happen.
With that said, as long as our disagreement isn’t rooted in my oppression or in the denial of my humanity and my right to exist, it is what it is.
Because I believe most of the people here are arguing in good faith but being white as fuck, cannot see beyond those blinders.
And of course, everyone is welcome to pie may Black ass.
debit
@Starfish (she/her): I would die for Rockalina.
Nukular Biskits
@John Cole:
That’s why I kept my Twitter account …
Professor Bigfoot
@The Thin Black Duke: THAT is the question that MM and others cannot answer.
It just seems like they’re constantly attacking Black Democrats.
John S.
@The Thin Black Duke:
That’s a great question! Maybe you could have offered an answer. Too late now because this has gotten so far past ridiculous that it’s not even worth it.
Nukular Biskits
@Starfish (she/her):
Uh, wot?
Another Scott
@Starfish (she/her): Made me click.
Glad those are over 15 minutes long and I don’t have the time now.
Thanks!
;-)
Hang in there.
Best wishes,
Scott.
Professor Bigfoot
@John Cole: Or maybe, and hear me out now, maybe they could accept that some of the things they say CAN BE INTERPRETED in ways that they may not have intended… but that also requires the misinterpreted person recognize this and address it directly.
Not by saying “I don’t have a racist bone in my body,” because most of you DO, and often are simply unaware of it.
But then, maybe I should just shut the fuck up.
becca
Something I am doing is withdrawing my economic support. So are other members of my family. No frills, just necessities. An austere life. Have to save my pennies in case of total collapse.
Good news is living simply means living well, and so I won’t suffer, but actually help the planet, too.
Sort of my own general strike.
John S.
@Professor Bigfoot:
I don’t pie anyone. I usually have enough self control to scroll past comments that aren’t worth responding to.
eclare
@debit:
Rooting for her!
beckya57
I’ve been ranting on Bluesky about dems/libs turning on each other instead of facing the common enemy. Not helpful at all.
sentient ai from the future
@Professor Bigfoot: you seemed to be acknowledging that your actions here might give people the sense that you are not assuming these are all good faith disagreements.
And if you think that could be the case, why would you think that simply saying you do indeed assume good faith here would be reassuring?
Because I think it’s similar in structure to what you were accusing mm of, that his behavior gives people an impression, and that that shows his motivation to be racial animus, and that we should not assume him to be operating in good faith.
gene108
The election results were a gut punch. Everyone was raw and hurting for weeks (and probably still are).
The Musk-Trump presidency is having everything we once believed in about this country bludgeoned to death before our eyes. It hurts watching it unfold. It makes people raw, scared, and confused about what can be done.
So many Trump supporters cheering this ongoing coup adds salt to the wounds.
Democrats lack of coherence in response to the last election just adds to confusion about what can be done. We can organize and push them, but ultimately more of them need to show initiative and an understanding of how totally fucked up things are right now and how angry Democratic voters are.
We all have opinions on the response that’s needed. Not everyone will agree with each other.
WereBear
Our Blogfather has spoken. Read both. I’m just glad he hasn’t thrown us out of the house.
The Thin Black Duke
@John S.: The point is black people are telling you why the accusations against Jeffries made them uncomfortable. I don’t recall being rude and I think I was explicit in explaining how I felt about the situation.
Professor Bigfoot
I don’t think most of our commenters understand the depth of disappointment felt by Black people after this past election… to the point where some of us are ready to say, “all right, white people, y’all go ‘head and do whatever, we’re gonna just watch.”
Most of y’all have absolutely no idea how much that hurt. Sure, you felt some hurt, are still bothered by it… but you cannot experience that depth the way Black folks have.
Sorry, but that’s just the way it is.
WereBear
@Professor Bigfoot: And I would miss you.
MagdaInBlack
I know for me some of the behavior here has been stunning. I see better behavior in my rough edged blue collar body shop life than I’ve seen from some folks here.
It’s always easy to be an ass when you’re not face to face with someone I guess.
Mostly I just sit here and watch in dull surprise.
Jeffg166
I am not a member of any organized political party. I am a Democrat.
Will Rogers
As true a hundred years ago as today
Professor Bigfoot
@sentient ai from the future: Don’t you get pissed off sometimes?
Ten Bears
Only slightly more than a lurker around here, all I’ve got to say, having been impersonated at one of the blogs I used to comment frequently at and have pretty much been forced to quit commenting anywhere … that’s part of the plan man. People are quitting Substack, having been impersonated, and I have no doubt it will happen at BlueSky ~ trolls are shutting us up and now that they’ve figured out how to get away with it it won’t stop. I saw it coming when I turned comments off at my house 15, 17 years ago
This will probably be my last comment here, if anyone is interested in what I have to say they know how to find me. This isn’t the only place mistermix posts …
WereBear
@Professor Bigfoot: Very true. Completely understandable.
Even iron wears out.
Another Scott
@The Thin Black Duke: Devil’s advocate – as we know, Jeffries is at the top of the minority leadership in the House.
It’s not unreasonable to pose the question – what is he doing?
(One can, of course, disagree with the tone or emphasis or wish things were expressed differently. But we should be willing to give the benefit of the doubt on posts here, even when they rub us the wrong way, I think.)
Just my $0.02.
Best wishes,
Scott.
Professor Bigfoot
@The Thin Black Duke: Nor do I; but I’ve certainly been pilloried regardless of how “polite” I might be.
Obviously NOT EVERYONE HERE (jesus fucking christ) but DEFINITELY SOME; the kind of folk who insist that they don’t have a racist bone in their bodies, who don’t care if you’re red green or purple, who have a Black friend and therefore completely understand what Black people deal with and wonder what’s the fuss?
Nukular Biskits
@Professor Bigfoot:
Prof, I think you know me well enough by now to know that I generally agree with you on the topics of racism, white privilege, and adjacent.
Having said that, though, it does get a little tiresome to see you insist on viewing all current events through that prism and that prism alone.
I’m not looking for an argument on this. I’m just asking you to consider the possibility that not every white person who disagrees with your views is automatically doing so because of white privilege, systemic racial injustice, etc. and not be on such a hair trigger.
And, to (hopefully) lighten the mood: Do you serve crackers?
PJ
@chemiclord: It’s easier to extend grace to someone who extends grace to others, but when that someone is, instead, thin-skinned and antagonistic and unwilling to examine their blindspots, over time it becomes difficult to want to cut them any slack.
hells littlest angel
I try to limit my criticism of Democrats to the egregiously bad stuff, like voting to confirm Trump’s monsters or being a corrupt mayor of a great city. If someone on our side does something dumb or ineffectual, well, I’m not going to be the one to cast the first stone. And I like to remind myself that allies are not necessarily friends. Life is going to get harder and harder in the next few years, and I don’t want us to have to spend all our time in the internment camp apologizing to each other.
Betty Cracker
@Starfish (she/her):
Nominated!
Bupalos
I think this is probably just a kind of small immune reaction to Bernie/AOC’s economic solidarity thing, which threatens to decenter moralized race and gender narratives in the name of broader solidarity and practical politics. Seems to me MM has been largely on that track.
There’s a kind of old orthodoxy here on that issue that is probably a threatening thing to reconsider.
Freemark
@John Cole: The Front Pagers generally back the Front Pagers so they don’t really have to worry much about being censored and are volunteers so don’t have to worry about getting fired. But as volunteers it really sucks when the people you are volunteering for are shitty ass dicks to you. And some of the commentariat here really do know how to pile it on. I’ve been here about 20 years (FUCK!) and have experienced it first hand when my opinion wasn’t the ‘consensus’ opinion of the heavy commenters. I basically just said “fuck ’em”. But I wasn’t spending a few hours a day volunteering my time to create a blog post.
FIIKWTD
prostratedragon
@Old Dan and Little Ann:
Blues lyric?
sentient ai from the future
@Professor Bigfoot: yes, and that’s when I take the time to go learn/create new ways to curse in Spanish.
Like, I am in family court over custody of my trans preteen because my coparent is unsupportive, plus I have *sweeping arm gesture at the world* to deal with. I have very little tolerance for dooming or circular firing squads because my child’s life depends on many ways on us figuring a way out of this trap we have set for ourselves.
SO let’s do that instead of lashing out at each other please and thank you.
John Cole
@Professor Bigfoot: People can interpret shit as charitably or uncharitably as they want, and I have no fucking control over it. Maybe you can explain how someone can promote multiple people of color like AOC and Max Frost and Jasmine Crockett, yet saying something you fucking disagree with about Hakeem Jeffries and it means they are this close to wearing a klan hood at proud boys rally.
Professor Bigfoot
Of course not.
BUT– just like it’s only rational for any woman to assume bad intent in any man she runs across, it’s only RATIONAL for me to see the links between a lot of these attitudes and the defense of whiteness.
No, absolutely not all, but enough that I’m not insane to assume it of any given white person until demonstrated otherwise.
Starfish (she/her)
@Nukular Biskits: Tortoises that have been fed cat food for ten years, usually have some sort of nutritional imbalance, very long toenails and messed up beaks.
A Ghost to Most
Due to the pie filter, insular groups have formed. People won’t listen to people that ruffle their feathers. Here you are.
And you do it all in secret.
Professor Bigfoot
@sentient ai from the future: Can you give me any tips on 3D CAD modeling? I’ve been able to get TinkerCad to work and have printed SO MUCH gridfinity stuff– if you ever need to organize your workspace, that shit is *da bomb.* Beware.
hells littlest angel
I wish I could say you’re wrong.
prostratedragon
@eclare: [Wavey-wavey]
Professor Bigfoot
@John Cole: If I get asked or even told that what I’ve said is racist, I’ll at least discuss the idea.
That’s not what I see here.
What I’m seeing is white people telling me what I should consider “racist” or not.
ETA: White people defining what’s racist to Black people is like Gentiles defining what’s antisemitic to Jewish people.
MagdaInBlack
@Old Dan and Little Ann: .. and the beer I had for breakfast tasted good, so I had one more for dessert…
It may be that kinda day.
sentient ai from the future
@Starfish (she/her): so you’re saying that feral intensive porpoises, cat food is bad for tortoises?
Professor Bigfoot
@MagdaInBlack: Good Lord, if I simply read the label on ONE bottle of beer, I’m snoring within the hour!
Alce _e_ardillo
A damn proud of it!
John S.
@The Thin Black Duke:
I was in that thread yesterday, and I didn’t see anyone offer an explanation of WHY the accusations against Jeffries made them uncomfortable. Honestly.
I saw a lot of quibbling over how the book was classified, insinuations over MMs motives, and the rest is history.
Maybe in the future if someone takes offense to a comment they could explain WHY, and I will be more vigilant to look for or seek that explanation.
Next time.
MagdaInBlack
@Professor Bigfoot: LOL, I don’t drink. Blame Kris Kristopherson ” Sunday Morning Coming Down”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_IQMhRM8Pc
trollhattan
Meanwhile, in a nation that has never mattered on the international scene.
This ain’t good. These people aren’t NATO-friendly, as a rule.
narya
@WereBear: Thank you! I don’t think I have enough information to form an opinion about whether I want to continue, but it was quiet.
Nukular Biskits
@Professor Bigfoot:
Is that not the very definition of prejudice?
Prof, dude, I’m on your side here, a lot more than you can ever know. Let’s just say that, while I never fit in with the typical “culture” here down South, my life has changed dramatically over the past few years and I’m more fucking woke than I have ever been in my life.
I’m respectfully asking you to consider dialing it down a little.
John S.
@Another Scott:
Spot on. Thanks for expressing that so well — as you often do.
Nukular Biskits
@Starfish (she/her):
That’s sad and I did not know that. And now I’m regretting I do know it.
The Thin Black Duke
Problem is, it’s difficult to discount the effect of racism in American politics when Trump did everything but say “n*gger” during his presidential campaign and he still got elected.
Despite the vigorous sanewashing by the corporate media, Trump sounded like a nasty, foul-mouthed patient with dementia in a assisted living facility and he still got elected.
Maybe racism wasn’t the only determining factor, but it’s a big one. And it’s a factor that black people see play out repeatedly.
Bupalos
@The Thin Black Duke: He’s the speaker of the house. It has nothing to do with who is guilty and who is innocent, it’s about the responsibility we all have to fix it, and first of all our highest political leaders. It’s just a really weird line to suggest Jeffries responsibilities are overridden by his innocent blackness. He’d be absolutely the last one to say that and make this kind of a defense. He’d have a much better one likely about the importance of the long game and education etc… which still would sound a lot to me like a guy underappreciating the moment for someone in his position.
We can at least discuss the latter, there’s no room for anything but schism in the “blacks didn’t break it so don’t have to fix it” vibe you’re throwing out here.
Another Scott
@trollhattan:
Tendar’s take (also posted way downstairs) is more hopeful.
Best wishes,
Scott.
Nukular Biskits
@MagdaInBlack:
After having a number of Yuenglings last night followed by some good bourbon, beer for breakfast did NOT sound very appetizing this morning.
geg6
While I am sure there are many things I say here as a white woman that may come off as clueless. I hope I don’t but I’m sure I do. But I am still confused as to why criticizing the Minority Leader in Congress for taking time for a book tour (and I heard an interview where he said the book was meant for young people) but not having much of a message for those looking to our leaders for…well…leadership or, if they have a message for us, making sure it’s out there clearly and passionately. We and most Americans are looking for some sort of leadership. He and the totally ineffectual Schumer are supposed to be our leaders. All I ask of them is to do what their titles say: lead. I’d say the same if the the House Minority Leader was my own congresscritter, Chris DeLuzio, one of the whitest white men on the planet. My criticisms of Jeffries are based on the fact that people like Max Frost, jasmine Crockett and AOC, basically back benchers, have shown more leadership than Jeffries, Pelosi or Schumer. I believe the criticism is warranted.
Anyway, I think we should just have a lot more pet posts. Especially those that star Thurston.
narya
@Professor Bigfoot: I very much appreciate your contributions here, fwiw.
Poe Larity
@A Ghost to Most: Arguably, the current regime would say this is a First Ammendment issue.
Personally, I blame inline comments.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
Maybe worry about the other-side than nit pick outside for purity?
I mean there is a far bit of good news that started this week. You asked me the question is how to exploit it. I mean apparently no one here noticed the MSM officially declared Trump’s honeymoon over.
Quaker in a Basement
Dangit.
I always get here after the fracas is all done.
Professor Bigfoot
@Nukular Biskits: Is it prejudice when a woman tries to avoid men in groups? Is it prejudice when women go to the bathroom in groups to watch each others’ backs? Is it prejudice when a woman at a bar covers her drink to be sure nothing gets put into it?
OR IS IT JUST GOOD SENSE
ETA: I ALWAYS add “until demonstrated otherwise.”
Unfortunately, through my entire life, white people seem to hate the idea that they need to demonstrate otherwise.
Unlike those of us who’ve spent our lives doing our goddamnedest to not offend white people lest we end up at the end of a rope.
MagdaInBlack
@Nukular Biskits: Hair ‘o’ the dog not the answer today?
eclare
@Nukular Biskits:
That gave me a needed LOL.
Starfish (she/her)
@The Thin Black Duke:
What is going on in the comments is actually complex, so I don’t expect folks here to grasp it.
I had to block someone long ago because a South Asian was conflating her experience of racism with the experience of Black descendants of chattel slavery. What in the Sundar Pichai and Satya Nadella is going on there? What some South Asians are doing is offensive because there are a lot of different South Asian experiences. Some South Asians engaging in poor behavior are adding caste based discrimination to American tech companies on top of other forms of discrimination.
Secondly, there are some white commenters attempting to put Black folks on a pedestal, and use them as a cudgel to oppose anyone who opposes their candidate and policy preferences. This is inappropriate.
Thirdly, a lot of folks here seem to be unfamiliar with the concept of misogynoir, the intersection of racism and sexism.
cain
@The Thin Black Duke:
💯
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@Professor Bigfoot: Since I am white guy who is seeing the same things you are pointing out, remember what the CRT professors are saying; racism is insidious and people are racists without realizing it.
At some point pressing the point isn’t helpful, got to let people calm down and think. Woke happens in the quite.
hells littlest angel
Oh, if only.
Other MJS
@chemiclord:
Words to live by. Thank you.
Quaker in a Basement
@narya: I hope it went well for you and folks were welcoming.
Old Dan and Little Ann
@prostratedragon: Johnny Cash. Sunday morning coming down.
Bupalos
Not just elected, elected with more black votes and a veritable avalanche more Hispanic votes. And less white votes.
I toss this out every time because I’d actually like to see what perspective you bring to this current reality and dynamic. “White people vote Republican” is still majority true but has basically never been less true. And yet things really are changing rapidly.
Ben Cisco
POC Jackal here. I’ll piggyback on what I said in a previous post:
I’ll add that what I HAVE felt since then falls into the following categories:
BETRAYAL
RAGE
ANXIETY
Truthfully, this is an UNHEALTHY state of affairs, and I had very little ground to give in that respect. As a result, my situational awareness has been TURNED ALL THE WAY UP AND THE KNOB BROKEN OFF. Allies feel few(er) and far between; this place splintering is NOT helpful.
Like many of you, I don’t have any answers – I voted for the lady that would have done NONE OF THIS, and got told that her existence and mine means exactly one Sam’s Club case lot of FUCK ALL.
I’m not in a good place. Maybe none of us are…
Stella
@geg6: The thing that gets me is if you don’t want to call it a kid’s book the only other label would be a coffee table book. Putting aside the fact it’s clearly made in the style of a kid’s book.
There’s no real description of the thing that helps their point.
eclare
@prostratedragon:
Thank you! Credit belongs to you.
John Cole
@Professor Bigfoot:
this is a non response. The assertion is that Mistermix was being racist for criticizing Jeffries. Is he racist all the time but just pretending when he promotes other people of color? Was what he said about Jeffries somehow racist but Mistermix himself is not racist? Was the statement itself racist, ie?
Or maybe race isn’t involved at all and he is watching the country go full nazi and was like “jesus fuck our leaders are providing unanimous consent to make sure their weekends are free so they can go on a book tour.” Personally I don’t give a fuck what the book was or is every god damned Democrat needs to spend every fucking day in DC blocking this stuff.
And I will note that if a white person made a blanket statement that said “black people defining…” you would have a shitfit, and rightfully so. BTW, I believe Mistermix is, fwiw, mixed race.
I personally don’t know what race/gender/sex 90% of you are because everyone uses pseudonyms.
Professor Bigfoot
@Enhanced Voting Techniques: MY POINT PRECISELY!!!!!!!!!!
Most of us grew up in a white supremacist society, just as much as we grew up in a patriarchal one.
That shit wires in switches and tubes and knobs and shit that we are not actually aware of.
This is why, as a man, I feel like I need to work to recognize and address those beliefs and attitudes when they’re pointed out to me.
All I ask is that white people do the same thing in their privileged lives.
prostratedragon
@trollhattan: Looks like things are moving at a faster pace all over.☹️
gene108
White people are rarely in a situation where the group they are in is mostly non-white. At best, a white atheist may end up working for a white business where most people are deeply religious and finds it annoying.
White people are almost never the only white person in their department or in the social group that gets drinks after work. They navigate a world where everything they encounter is based on what they are accustomed to with very little discomfort.
Many white people have no frame of reference for what it’s like to be subject to things they aren’t accustomed to. I’ve noticed three reactions.
1. They try to learn and understand.
2. They don’t like the social discomfort, might not do it again, but aren’t going to stop others from being different.
3. Some people freak the fuck out and want stomp down on anything that makes them uncomfortable from people speaking non-English languages in public to pretty much everything else.
I thought most folks fell in the first two categories, but I think I’m wrong given how successful the campaign to wipe out anything that hurts white people’s feelings has been in the last few years.
This has been a shifting but very sticky issue in America’s culture from the 19th century backlash against Catholics changing the Protestant nature of this country to the backlash against Latino and Latina immigrants, Asian immigrants (the attacks the “China virus” and “Kung Flu” caused during COVID), etc.
One thing that’s constant has been a hostility to African American culture somehow hurting white boys and girls until it gets accepted by white culture like jazz, the blues, rock and roll, and though I’m not sure rap music has ever made the same leap as earlier genres of music.
Other MJS
I suspect part of the problem (not to downplay other issues) is simply the high traffic on this blog, which incentivizes commenting before attention moves to the next post. I try to remind myself that being mostly a lurker is just fine.
PJ
@John Cole:
I am putting this as charitably as possible: If you read this blog over time, you can see trends in what posters write and consider in their writing. It’s not one post that makes commenters “uncharitable”, it’s seeing a trend where a poster consistently cannot see the perspective of someone other than himself, and seems unwilling to consider the message being received when it is pointed out.
John Cole
And before this thread deteriorates into a shit show, anyone who somehow claims or suggests that the current state of affairs is the blame of black people, you can just get fucked. This is one thing I agree with the Thin Black Duke on 100% without question. White people did this shit.
la caterina
The current mess was caused by white people. As a white person, I have to admit the pervasiveness of American racism and take responsibility to be anti-racist. It’s hard to do. It will always be OUR job, not the job of Black people, to fix the things white people screwed up. In addition to working amongst ourselves, white people must LISTEN to Black people if we are ever going to learn anything in this sphere. Jeffries is my rep. I know how hard he works (and his staff) because I’ve seen it.
Starfish (she/her)
@Nukular Biskits: In the videos, all the turtles and tortoises are saved, and they don’t show us the unhappy ones where they can’t save them because as true Americans, we demand a happy ending.
None of that weird stuff they do in other countries where the videos end on a sad note.
USA USA
TurnItOffAndOnAgain
Here’s my issue: the whole Democrat’s Always Suck smacks more than a little bit of privilege: non-cis, non-straight, non-white and non-male voters have had to settle, for decades, for voting for the candidate that wanted them dead less than the other. But now we can’t stand representatives just because they are not as effective as they could be?
And I’m fucking tired of hating Democrats. I’m tired of the idea of hating my party because they’re not the cool rich high school kids that get to do whatever they want because the teachers always look the other way. I don’t want to be them, I want a school where you don’t have to be them to not be shit on.
I’m fucking tired of Democrats being the party everyone kicks down on, including their own damn voters. I’m fucking tired of that being so reflexive that so few check if a story is true before they start yelling about splitters and betrayers. I’m tired of Russia-owned grifters fucking us over from the left because we’re all ready to believe the worst with out double checking. I’m tired of us waiting for another Obama instead of setting the stage for one.
I’m tired, yes, of the low-key racist bullshit that crops up on our side that we should be able to entertain as racist or insensitive enough to be taken that way, at the very, very least.
I’m tired of the left being a victim of the GOP’s anti-Democrat group-think propaganda. Fuck them and they’re framing. I don’t care how shitty Democrats are: I’m done. The hate will straighten my spine with the iron of the pride in being a Democrat, because I can listen to all that jabber and not let it effect me and not steal my hope.
Fuck trashing our side. The unprivileged have soldiered on despite so much worse. The absolute least I can do is hold to clear-eyed hope in the face of the tsunami of bullshit emotional manipulation that the GOP owned media is trying to drown me with.
John S.
@Starfish (she/her):
That’s an interesting second point. I hadn’t really considered it before, but it definitely happens.
Another unfortunate dynamic is the trolling by people who don’t consider themselves trolls, even when half a thread is comments by them, replying to them or about them.
John Cole
@PJ: Well we don’t have to worry about that anymore, do we?
schrodingers_cat
@John Cole: Even Rs like non-white people who agree with them. I have found that many white leftists/liberals like non-white people only so long as we are in agreement with them.
I rarely comment on MM’s threads because he has on more than one occasion jumped into the comments to call me names and fling personal insults.
I will give you a specific example.
I once criticized AOC’s gown at the MET gala few years ago, and MM jumped into the comments to insult my intelligence, criticize my English comprehension skills and even told me how his daughter’s cat was better at understanding English than I was.
Before I shared my immigrant experience during the first Trump admin, no one here had any problems with either my English or intelligence. I have been commenting here since 2009.
Since last June I have felt that I am not white enough for this blog. And so I comment far less than I used to.
BeenHereSince2003
John,
You did nothing wrong. Neither did MM.
We need to do making excuses for whiny little entitled narcissistic rejects, who think the world needs to adapt to their feelings.
The morons who were complaining and those who made our brand so obnoxious that they got Trump elected
A lot of people who thought they were anti-racist in intent turned out to be awfully fucking racist in effect. By their own standards they deserve to be pariahs!
Professor Bigfoot
@John Cole: There’s a difference between “being” a racist and “saying something that’s racist.”
If you, as a white man, are unwilling to address it when a POC tells you that a thing you said is racist, then you ARE a racist.
Are we not allowed to see someone saying something that can EASILY be viewed as racist?
Are we to be like MSM and pretend that a Nazi salute isn’t? (and NO, goddammit, I mention that as an analogy; there ain’t no goddamn Nazis in this place and I’d stake my own life on that)
Nukular Biskits
@The Thin Black Duke:
Agreed on all three points.
But, that doesn’t really address my point/request to the Professor.
I’m going to say something that probably both of you will disagree with here, but racism (and associated ills) both is and is not part of the American problem. Schrodinger’s racism, if you will.
I’m not trying to be smart-ass here but, as I’ve explained, I fully agree that white male patriarchy (and how so many have been conditioned to expect it as the norm) is definitely an issue. But ascribing every micro-aggression, real and perceived, to someone who is being critical of a POC simply is not incontrovertible evidence of racism.
prostratedragon
@Old Dan and Little Ann: Got to check that out, thanks.
zhena gogolia
@Professor Bigfoot: This is what is distressing me.
cain
@Freemark:
I hear you and I’ve seen that myself as a long time contributor although I think it only happened twice to me.
For some reason I don’t seem to raise the ire of anyone. I also don’t get much reactions to my comments. Which is all good. I’m saying my piece but I also don’t use language that escalates.
Professor Bigfoot
@John Cole: Perhaps.
But then, you could say the vast majority of Black people vote for Democrats and that would be perfectly honest and legitimate.
To say that the majority of white people voted for white supremacy is ALSO perfectly honest and legitimate.
Of COURSE it’s “not all white people,” but IT’S SO GODDAMN MANY OF YOU that we’re enjoying President for Life Trump now.
chemiclord
@PJ: Oh, I understand that as well. As I mentioned, I’m here because of such behavior from someone exactly like that. It can especially be rough when the person who refuses to reflect on themselves also has the ban hammer.
sentient ai from the future
@John Cole: for the record, I am precisely the race gender and sex that one would expect a sentient ai sent back in time from a horrifying post apocalyptic future to be.
The Thin Black Duke
@geg6: When the fascists are busy nailing “White Only” signs all over the country, I think a book extolling black excellence to black and brown children is both a radical and necessary act.
More to the point, I don’t believe Jeffries was abdicating his responsibilities as minority speaker of the House during this book tour because he was also meeting with local African-American political groups across the country. In this instance, I believe Jeffries thought it was more important to brainstorm with the black community right now considering we’re extremely vulnerable to the crippling budget cuts going on. I’ll give Jeffries a pass for what he chose to prioritize. This time.
cckids
Do you perhaps not understand that many women – yes, even white women – feel that way, after watching an absolute scumball man get voted into office over two exceptional women?
Nukular Biskits
@MagdaInBlack:
Definitely not. Coffee and Jimmy Dean’s Egg Bite thingies along with some sourdough bread.
Martin
@Professor Bigfoot: My main point of friction on this blog is commenters that do not accept other commenters arguments are made in good faith. If you assume your fellow commentators are not trying to do harm, provided they are not explicitly trying to do harm, then you can have actual discussions and not assume you are being attacked. If you cannot do that, then you inevitably descend into a spiral of accusations that you cannot escape until people leave, and what you’re left with is very much a function of how much abuse each person is willing to take. For those of us who don’t use the pie filter in order to engage with everyone, you tend to hit that point a lot faster than those who do, so you usually wind up with a community of pissed off group-thinkers that have pied everyone they don’t agree with.
I’ve advocated for less moderation around words and more moderation around ‘who is harming the community’, which is the whole point of moderation – preserving the community.
BeenHereSince2003
@Professor Bigfoot:
“If you, as a white man, are unwilling to address it when a POC tells you that a thing you said is racist, then you ARE a racist.”
Utter garbage like this is why we have Trump. No one owes you deference.
sentient ai from the future
@TurnItOffAndOnAgain: HEAR HEAR
The Thin Black Duke
Sure, but we won’t know until we have a discussion about it.
zhena gogolia
@Bupalos: He is not the Speaker of the House.
eclare
@John Cole:
He noted in a post yesterday that he was celebrating Margarita Day because his mother is Mexican.
Miss Bianca
@Professor Bigfoot:
I’m not Black, but I feel you. Particularly that last sentence.
I wish more people voted like Black voters, that’s the truth – this country would be a much fairer, better place to live in, from my POV.
WereBear
@becca: We have also cut back, choosing cheaper staples, and trying to eat everything we bring home. Not buying clothes, haircuts/products, earrings and the like because I no longer “perform” in public. The two of us do breakfast at locally owned places instead of dinner out.
Music, books, movies on subscription only, though several such have been canceled for not pulling their weight.
Writing a new book and the last one did well.
The Thin Black Duke
@Bupalos: I would love it if 80% of white people voted for the Democrats.
zhena gogolia
@TurnItOffAndOnAgain: THISTHISTHISTHIS!!!
Ella in New Mexico
@The Thin Black Duke: because he’s the Leader for the entire Democratic House maybe? And he’s been a bit AWOL to be honest?
Just because he’s black he’s not infallable. Neither was Nancy Smash or any other person who has lead us, although I’d say she was far braver in the face of Trump on her watch than Hakeem has been. And FFS I’m so sick of Chucky Schumer’s limpness right now that I’d love to scream in his face. Am I now a Nazi Antisemitic?
We’re in a Constitutional Crisis God Dammit. We need FIRE. You wanna be a leader then step the fuck up and LEAD people, is all we’re saying.
John Cole
@Professor Bigfoot: Again, this is a non response. BY having this discussion with you I am clearly listening. We are talking, right? I am listening, right? I am asking you, what about saying Jeffries should not be on a book tour is racist? Is Mistermix a racist? Or did he just say something that you perceive as racist that white people (or mixed people) do not? And if so, how does one say “The House Minority Leader should be in DC not out promoting a book (kid’s or otherwise)” without being accused of racism?
Professor Bigfoot
@cckids: Considering the majority of white women voted for that son of a bitch, I’m afraid I’m less than impressed.
Meanwhile VAST majorities of Black, Jewish and LGBTQIA+ folk voted for the Black lady.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Enhanced Voting Techniques
Sure, well and you make the point, and these rage replies are because their hind brain is arguing with their front brain. No need to distract them from that.
Layer8Problem
@Bupalos: “He’s the speaker of the house.”
You’re a Poly Sci person, right?
Nukular Biskits
@Professor Bigfoot:
You realize this “logic” can be used against you by those fragile white folks fearful of black “thugs”; i.e., black men need to “prove” they’re not thugs before being trusted.
I certainly hope you’re not arguing that judging human beings based on past experiences, whether experienced or by proxy, with other shitty individuals isn’t a form of prejudice.
John Cole
@The Thin Black Duke: This is the best response I have seen so far. I should make you a front pager.
John S.
@zhena gogolia:
You’re right, he’s the House minority leader.
Was that just a factual correction, or an insinuation that the entire comment is wrong because of that error?
Professor Bigfoot
@John Cole: I don’t think this thread is going to devolve into a shitshow, Blogfather.
In fact, this thread is looking to me like the kind of discussion that you built this place for.
Planetjanet
What I have seen is concerns raised respectably that there is another side to a criticism and try to add context. It can draw sharp pushback. Folks aren’t listening. We need to do that and respond in good faith instead of knee jerk reactions.
eclare
@The Thin Black Duke:
The House is back in session tomorrow. Let’s see what happens then.
Starfish (she/her)
@Professor Bigfoot: I did not know who you were or that you were a long time commenter when I first saw your posts. I think you said something stupid to me like: Hit Dog Holler.
That is very Twitter behavior. You didn’t know who I was and just decided that I was a white racist.
As you have written longer and more nuanced things, I feel like you are contributing in a more meaningful way. And it feels less like a desire to tear the community apart.
What makes this place different from Twitter? How do we maintain community while being different from one another?
That second question is something that I know John and Watergirl are thinking about.
Even though there is a lot of acrimony in the comments, I think the commenters may be more diverse than they have ever been in the history of this blog.
zhena gogolia
@John Cole: He would be a great front-pager.
Professor Bigfoot
@sentient ai from the future: ART? Is that you? (#Murderbot)
CarolM
@becca:
Me too! We are improving our finances and living a lot healthier, it’s a win-win! I wish more people in the US would do this. I hope that on February 28th, a lot of people participate in that protest where they don’t buy anything for a day.
The Thin Black Duke
@John Cole: I’m working on it, John. Thank you.
John Cole
@zhena gogolia: He is a front pager. That was sarcasm.
Professor Bigfoot
@The Thin Black Duke: Can we even have a discussion about it without white people deciding they can define what’s racist and what’s not?
geg6
@The Thin Black Duke:
And that’s great. I applaud all of that. I just want a leader to step up and speak to and for all of us who want to resist and need to be bucked up and pointed in some kind of productive direction. It’s very sad and discouraging that so many in leadership positions don’t seem to be doing that. The squabbling would be much less if we felt that our so-called leaders weren’t expecting us in the rank and file to figure it out for ourselves with no or little encouragement from those we should be counting on.
John Cole
@Professor Bigfoot:
And scene.
zhena gogolia
@John S.: I’ve seen it asserted several times just this morning that Jeffries is the Speaker of the House and thus should not have left Washington, DC (as if the Speaker of the House never leaves DC). The whole point of our predicament is that he is not the Speaker of the House. He would be the Speaker of the House if the American people had elected a Democratic Congress. They did not. Both houses of Congress, the White House, and the Supreme Court are in the hands of Republicans. There is very, very little that our Democratic elected representatives can do now, because of that very fact. So repeatedly calling him “Speaker of the House” (as several commenters have done just today) is exaggerating the power the WE THE PEOPLE have given elected Democrats. Vastly exaggerating.
cw moss
@John Cole: that’s what Eschaton is for!
Nukular Biskits
@The Thin Black Duke:
Perhaps I’m still too slow (last night involved a little too much partying for this old man) but are you arguing the correct way of approaching such instances is to assume racism until it’s determined to not be?
zhena gogolia
@John Cole: Sorry, I forgot.
ETA: As I recall, he writes mostly about culture.
Professor Bigfoot
@John Cole: Again, he said something that Black people PERCEIVED as racist.
That’s actually OK, because we all live in a white supremacist society.
My issue is his absolute refusal to engage on it.
So what kind of response do you need from me, Blogfather? What is actually the question you need me to answer?
Bupalos
@Layer8Problem: I guess my dreams got ahead of me.
Professor Bigfoot
@Nukular Biskits: Do you think I haven’t literally spent my entire fucking LIFE DEALING WITH EXACTLY FUCKING THAT????
cain
@Martin:
Yes, 💯 this. As a person who builds community around code. Toxic people can destroy a site if not quick actions especially for long time commentators.
John S.
@Starfish (she/her):
For me, the most ridiculous part of this community is when commenters make proclamations about other people who they don’t even know. I don’t see that behavior changing any time soon.
PJ
@John Cole:
It’s often hard for people to be questioned about things they haven’t consciously considered in what they’ve said or written. Some people take that as an opportunity to learn about the impact of their words and opinions on others, and their own implicit beliefs or attitudes, and others take it as an opportunity to fuck off. I know who I’d rather read.
(I say this because I have been that stupid white guy who couldn’t be bothered to listen too often in my life.)
Miss Bianca
@eclare: Yesterday was Margarita Day?? How did I miss this?!
John S.
@zhena gogolia:
Isn’t that the sort of bad faith that we aren’t supposed to be assuming?
Jeffries was the Speaker of the House not all that long ago. Maybe folks just misspoke and don’t have nefarious motives?
Professor Bigfoot
@Starfish (she/her): I try, I really try, to live by Son of Baldwin’s Dictum:
I think it’s ANYONE’S humanity and right to exist; for example, those who advocate that Democrats should move away from defending the rights of trans folk in order to win white people.
“Every sophont has the inherent right to self definition and self determination,” and among us humans, free people are happy people, and happy people are productive, capable people.
prostratedragon
@Nukular Biskits: That would be consistent with low risk tolerance which, considering how the downside has expressed itself over the years, some of us certainly have.
Bupalos
@The Thin Black Duke: wouldn’t we all. That’s not really responsive though.
As a party, we aren’t dealing with the reality that as America becomes less white, the Democratic Party is becoming more white and the Republican Party less so. This is the disconnect we aren’t dealing with. Demographics turns out not to be destiny, and yet the mentality here surrounding the supposed salience of demographics changing and in fact may be getting louder and more insistent on this orthodoxy.
West of the Rockies
@TurnItOffAndOnAgain:
Well said. Personally and objectively, I think there is too much doom and gloom accompanying the Democrats Suck theme.
Yes, shit sucks right now! But “we are so screwed” is not a strategy or viable way to meet the challenges we collectively face.
I have noted that cantankerous but reliably hopeful Omnes seems to be AWOL here. I have commented a bit less as well because the more frequent “we’re screwed” attitude (mostly but not exclusively) in the comments is wearing. YMMV.
cckids
@Professor Bigfoot: And yet we’ve had a black man as president but zero women.
Soprano2
I haven’t read all the comments, but I think this incident illustrates the truth that a multicultural society is a hard thing to have, that it needs constant attention and love. We all probably agree on 95% of the issues and what would help them be better, yet we still fight and accuse each other of things that probably aren’t right or true. It’s tough to communicate across vastly different experiences and situations.
Professor Bigfoot
@John Cole: Why we love ya, bossmang. I’ve been here for around 20 years (including as “Ivan Ivanovich Renko, Colonel, Komitet Gosudarstvennoy Bezopasnosti, Ret.”) and I’m well aware that *you do try like a MF,* and can’t nobody ask for more.
hells littlest angel
@Professor Bigfoot:Of COURSE it’s “not all white people,” but IT’S SO GODDAMN MANY OF YOU that we’re enjoying President for Life Trump now.
That’s very well put, but I don’t know if it will get through here. Being the default race, lots of white people don’t identify as white.
la caterina
@Professor Bigfoot: You are right. And it’s so hard for white people to get that we don’t get to define racism.
Professor Bigfoot
@Nukular Biskits: It’s how we survive in this country and long since have.
If you’ve ever heard the term “code-switching,” yeah, that’s part of it.
Annnd– if you are Black in Corporate America, you cannot escape those white people.
(but sometimes you’ll find some awesome ones, too- welcome to Earth, n’cest pas?)
Nukular Biskits
@Professor Bigfoot:
You didn’t exactly answer my question.
I have no reason to doubt what you’ve had to deal with over the course of your life but I’m trying hard to understand if (or why) you are arguing that certain forms of prejudice are acceptable and others are not.
If my confusion WRT your position on prejudice is wrong, please educate me.
Softail
makes me glad I’m mostly a lurker.
I do appreciate what I get here and contribute and donate since the early days even though I rarely have anything to say. definitely not something I can get elsewhere
thanks to all of you past and present
cain
@Miss Bianca:
I was so perturbed about the election, I texted my black ex-gf and she gave me a response that was Buddhist in its serenity. This isn’t new for black people who had generations to deal with lack of equity and are still here. They will continue to be.
History is cyclic. It’s our turn to slow the character of ourselves in this place we have found ourselves. It’s unfortunate that our children and grandchildren must now face the same societal upheaval that my grandparents did during the war of Indian Independence.
I am now so deeply aware of the deeply racist society we have built here. How accepting we are of it. Indians bringing their version of inequity of the caste system and finding acceptance here.
I see every norm and accepted norm being broken. Every social contract withering. The tree of freedom thirsts for blood and it’s going to be paid by our kids.
Nukular Biskits
@Professor Bigfoot:
Excellent advice.
Professor Bigfoot
@PJ: I’ve been the “Not All Men!” dude.
Gods be praised, there were women who liked and respected me enough to sort my ass out; and now when women talk about what awful shits men are, I just nod along.
We ARE awful shits. (not all of us, but enough of us that any woman is only rational to assume it of us until demonstrated otherwise.
“‘Tis not so deep as a well nor so wide as a church door, but ’tis enough; ’twill serve.”
Layer8Problem
@Bupalos: As The Master told Buffy, “A dream is a wish your heart makes.”
schrodingers_cat
@cain: And being an outlier here and in India where politics is concerned fucking sucks. I hear you.
PJ
@John S.: Jeffries was never Speaker of the House. If the Democrats had held the House in 2023, we probably wouldn’t be in this mess right now!
Professor Bigfoot
@cckids: And whose fault is that?
That’s right, white people, because the women who’ve run have been part of “The Party of Negroes” and well, here we are.
Nukular Biskits
@prostratedragon:
With all due respect, that sounds like a justification for prejudice.
As a white guy, I would resent being considered racist until I proved otherwise (by some unknown metric) simply because other white people are racists. And I’m sure you would feel the same way were roles reversed.
zhena gogolia
@John S.: I don’t care what their motives are. I think it’s important to correct the misinformation. “Speaker of the House” implies that he’s being derelict in his duties. Damn, if he’s Speaker of the House, why isn’t he stopping all this shit?
Martin
@The Thin Black Duke: So, one of my struggles once I hit management was I wanted to personally take on all projects I found interesting, and I had to learn not to. My job wasn’t writing books, it was leading other people, sometimes supporting them to write the book.
In times of extreme threat, focus because extremely important. Jeffries could have accomplished all those same goals in a range of different ways which was more visible governance, and more focused.
There’s a whole mess of shit that ONLY Jeffries can do, ONLY member of Congress can do, ONLY governors can do, and so on. During a crisis, anything that isn’t those things signals that the crisis isn’t really a crisis. There are a LOT of people who could have written that book. You can say ‘that guy shouldn’t have written that book’ without inferring that the book shouldn’t have been written by someone else.
schrodingers_cat
@zhena gogolia: And Jeffries has never been the Speaker of the House. So its not a mere slip of the tongue.
Layer8Problem
@West of the Rockies: Yup, same for me. It sure looks like it has driven some commenters off.
NotoriousJRT
@geg6: I admit I have become more of an episodic lurker than I once was, and I missed all the discussion about Jeffries. I did not know he is on a book tour. Assuming your summation is correct, I concur with it. But, even without the book tour complication, I have been sadly disappointed in Jeffries. He is young and smart and I expected him to inject his energy into the leadership of Democrats in Congress. I have not witnessed that. This should be Jeffies’ time. Schumer is an incredibly bad messenger. I expected Jeffries to seize every opportunity to fill (at least part of) the vacuum. It doesn’t feel like he is doing that, although I do give him credit for directing his members to get out in town halls. But I think there should be brisk, daily, coherent messaging to rally the disparate parts of the coalition in opposition to Trump. I don’t feel it, I’m white, female, agnostic, and old. Maybe messages are there, but I’m not built to hear them. But, someone might consider crafting and delivering messages for all (including me and the varied “yous” who read and comment here) of us who want to oppose Trump in effective ways.
Nukular Biskits
And here I am discussion racism, white privilege and related … and I should be doing my damned taxes.
Y’ALL STOP GIVING ME EXCUSES TO PROCRASTINATE, DAMMIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Professor Bigfoot
@Nukular Biskits: Here’s the question: WHY do white people act that way towards Black folks?
Is it prejudice to avoid touching a hot stove?
You’re arguing like there’s no rationality to what I’m saying, that there’s no reason why women should distrust men they don’t know, and there’s no reason why Black people should distrust white people they don’t know.
Is that your point of view?
John S.
@PJ:
My mistake!
He’s been the #1 guy in the House for a while now, and I guess it was just wishful remembering that he was in charge at some point instead of the cavalcade of shitbags we’ve had since Pelosi stepped down.
ETA: And it’s this shit right here which is why this blog is off the rails. Even now, there are commenters convinced that this is some secret plot rather than a simple mistake.
Professor Bigfoot
@Nukular Biskits: So how are we to know you’re not like the majority of your demographic?
cain
@Professor Bigfoot:
We are shits. After my divorce and going on the dating circuit I got a full exposure of this.
I recognize the patriarchy not only a threat to women’s freedom to live their lives but also a threat to mine as well. I don’t care to be cast in the roles the patriarchy wants for me either.
debit
@John S.: When was he Speaker of the House?
gwangung
Hm. None of my posts seem to be posting.
All I wanted to mention is that lived-in experience should not be dismissed casually.
The Thin Black Duke
Sorry, folks. I’m going to cash out because my Beloved and I are going to watch episode 6 of Severance. Remember, We Are Family.
laura
@gene108: 1. They try to learn and understand.
Despite having zero social media accounts, I have managed to lurk on the nitter, the blue sky, the gram and the tiktok and honestly, the majority of my looking around has been to seek out Black voices, queer and transgender communities, labor, and of course, dieworkwear. It’s been so very worthwhile, it’s been thought-provoking, humbling and joyful. It has also allowed me to see the world in a way that I hadn’t previously- and impossible to unseen the obvious dominant paradigm that is white patriarchy. Maybe, instead of retreating to defensive “not all white people” responses, try checking out other perspectives. Sure, social media may not be real life, but it does provide an opportunity to see beyond the end of one’s nose.
Professor Bigfoot
@cain: Ain’t that the goddamn truth.
And i swear to God, once you start seeing the tendrils of the patriarch, you start seeing that shit EVERYWHERE.
Layer8Problem
@gwangung: Long time! Hope all is well for you.
Martin
@Nukular Biskits: I would argue that how you react to a community of people you don’t know should not be conflated with how you react to a community of people you do, or should know.
If some rando on CNN says something that could be construed as racist, I think it’s fine to hold onto that thread until it’s clear whether or not it’s racist. I think MM and most other recognizable names here are sufficiently known in the community that you don’t need to hold onto that thread, and just assume it wasn’t intended to be racist.
But perhaps the community here has disintegrated to such a degree that’s no longer possible.
gwangung
@Nukular Biskits: I thought he answered it perfectly.
It’s a very literal survival mechanism, and at times, I think folks need to tolerate being subjected to it.
Elizabelle
@TurnItOffAndOnAgain: Applause. And you were
correctperceptive in your assessments of Jeffries’ book in last night’s thread, too. Whether that is convenient for anyone to acknowledge, or not.cain
@Nukular Biskits:
I accept I am racist because I am privy to my own thoughts. I have 40 years anti black programming in me through TV and movies.
The only thing that holds me to account is my sense of justice, empathy, and equity that see a thought bubbling up and understanding it is racist and hold it in my head looking at it and then contemptuously toss it and tell myself to do better.
HopefullyNotcassandra
@hells littlest angel:
I would say prepare for, rather than assume. That leaves room for both safety and pleasant surprise.
Another Scott
@NotoriousJRT:
If you haven’t seen it, https://bsky.app/profile/democrats.org has a daily message (during the week) titled “What Democrats Did Today”.
HTH a little.
Best wishes,
Scott.
cain
@The Thin Black Duke: curse you for giving me an earworm 😂
MomSense
I can’t believe some of you are still arguing about whether or not it’s a children’s book.
Good luck, jackals. Wish you well.
PatD
@Professor Bigfoot: What’s with this nonsense? Jeffries doesn’t get any more or else criticism than Schumer. Both have deservedly gotten criticism which comes with leadership, or a lack of it.
I’m a POC as well so I guess that gives me the right to make everything about race to stop legitimate criticism. It gets old. Maybe let’s stop gate keeping and get back to making good arguments.
gwangung
@Layer8Problem: Thanks. A lot of shit happening, not all political, but the political stuff isn’t helping
@Martin: I think a lot of POC folks have the experience of being stung by long acquaintances, even those who know better. I would posit that white folks should be the ones to adjust and not necessarily the black and other POC folks since they’re not on the hot spot all the time.
wonkie
I am full of rage. I’m like one big burse and touchy as hell. I have been abrupt with people and impatient with people and rude to my cat. I need to recognize this and stop leaking anger at the wrong people. My suggestion is that anyone who feels like blasting someone on this site, please go to a Rethuglican site and blast there.
WTFGhost
Thanks for calling out the, dare I say, “ghost-post” – don’t mess with me relatives, y’hear? ;-) – and for reaching back, and trying to fix it.
Nukular Biskits
@Professor Bigfoot:
PB, you’re asking additional questions instead of answering any of mine in something resembling a Gish Gallop.
This’ll have to be a subject we pick up later … it’s a cold rainy day outside, a perfect day to do taxes (if there is such a thing).
And, yes, I really am trying to get my taxes done, as well as those of my sister, her daughter and then try yet again to do those of Ms. Biskits (whose taxes are ALWAYS complicated to the point the last couple of years I gave up and paid H&R Block a ridiculous sum to do them).
I leave you with this, not to provoke, but to give you an honest opinion of what you appear to be arguing:
Mind you, these are my words, not yours, but this is why I’m confused as to the position you seem to be taking.
v/r
bo
John S.
@PatD:
It’s nice to see that the immediate assumption of bad faith is getting old for other people, too.
prostratedragon
@Nukular Biskits: That’s as may be. But it is based on lived experience. It’s only a small number of Black people who would deny human rights to another person if they could, but many|most would find it hard to relax from the guard stance without exstensive experience of the other person; which experience might not transfer readily. I’m not trying to defend it. This is just how it is.
cain
@wonkie:
You feel helpless.
But you are not helpless.
As a group we have economic power to punish companies. Where you spend money matters.
We have the agency of non compliance.
Learn from history.
eclare
I’m out, episode three of The Traitors. Campy, fun, murder mystery reality show set in an actual castle in the Scottish highlands. Alan Cumming is the host and he looks like he is having the time of his life. Pure escapism.
John S.
@debit:
He wasn’t. I stand corrected.
Professor Bigfoot
@PatD: Excuse me, I’m sorry, but who the fuck are you?
Marcopolo
@John S.: Jeffries has NEVER been Speaker of the House, lol. Always minority leader.
Btw, great thread. Used to comment more regularly here. Probably changes on my side has led to less time here, but glad BJ is still hanging in there. Thanks to everyone, top to bottom for keeping it alive. Good things come from this place & participating in it.
NotoriousJRT
@The Thin Black Duke: Thanks for this perspective. It’s important and edifying.
I still feel the need for constant, effective messaging from SOMEONE to the wide coalition has to be a priority of leaders. And, as Cole said, standing and fighting every day in some way even though the House and Senate rules limit the tools of the minority. Get those tools into someone’s hands with a strategy to make the most of them, and ensure that work gets done.
WTFGhost
@wonkie: Friend, if I may say something that sounds unbelievable… well, I’m going to say it.
You should have rage. But it shouldn’t be active rage. Right now, you’re burning adrenaline for no reason, you’re harming your overall health, and, you just might make yourself less able to fight back.
I’m severely disabled, okay? I’m in pain *all the effing time*. There may be no cure, and I’m cut off from most human interaction – there’s *here*, and home with my wife and four cats, and that’s not a healthy social foundation for any human being.
I know better than anyone that somehow, I have to effing be *happy*. I have to make *jokes* because I make jokes when I’m happy. I have to celebrate remembering to give my wife a mini-backrub, because it hurts, but I’m remembering happiness.
I have to do that, so I don’t end up leaving an ugly physical and emotional mess – yes, I do mean suicide, if there’s any question.
So… I’m not asking for your sorrow, your pity, maybe a *bit* of sympathy, but mostly: you think I don’t know how hard it is to try to change your emotions from all-negative to happy?
So: if I say “friend, you need to learn to be happy again, and put your rage aside for now, so it’s fresh for when you need it,” I’m only giving you the best advice I could give to anyone, including myself, and, OMG do I know how hard it is.
I wish I could tell you *how* but… we don’t have English words for that kind of thing. But when you’re wrapped up in any emotion – rage, anger, grief, sorry – it takes effort to break away from it, because emotions color your perceptions in strange ways.
You’re angry, it’s like you’re a hammer looking for a nail, sometimes, I bet. Well – anger does that to you, a bit.
Your emotions are real, okay, but ,sometimes your deepest, truest, self can lay them down, and do something else, not as a denial of your emotions, or what those emotions mean about you… instead, your truer self finds a way to make an expression of something greater.
I hope this wasn’t too weirdPS: someone let me know if it’s weird or personal, to use your response as a “springboard” where I’m kinda talking to you, but talking about overall stuff. I’m ND – I might not realize it’s weird.
cain
Nice to see John engage in the comments it’s been awhile. I understand that he is upset. We have been bleeding FPers here
I do encourage Mistermix to return despite accusations.
Maybe a zoom meeting to talk about it would be good. We tend to bring out our empathetic selves more when face to face. Just a thought.
We must learn to resolve these conflicts otherwise how can we do it as a whole. This blog is a microcosm of majority white and minority minorities.
John S.
@Marcopolo:
Yes, I acknowledged that quite a bit upthread.
columbusqueen
@Professor Bigfoot: You know, dismissing other people’s pain & grief as less than your own isn’t a great way to influence would-be allies. Given the increasingly strong odds I’m going to be shipped off to a work camp, I really don’t appreciate it.
PJ
@Martin:
The problem isn’t whether Mistermix intended to be racist or not, but that he has a pattern of writing which suggests, at a minimum, that he cannot fathom how his implicit attitudes are perceived by black people, and when called on it, he either ignores it or gets defensive.
TBone
Watching the apropos Cat On A Hot Tin Roof on TCM. What is the point of being a cat on a hot tin roof, Maggie the Cat?
cain
@WTFGhost:
I’m sorry for this and I know what that means now taking care of my wife and what kind of will it takes getting up every day.
prostratedragon
@Professor Bigfoot: In econ this is known as a screening problem, in which Black people are the “uninformed” party. That’s where risk tolerance comes in; screening is effective only with probability, not certainty.
wonkie
@WTFGhost: NOt weird. Thank you.
Professor Bigfoot
@Nukular Biskits: No, I don’t think it to be ‘prejudice,’ not the kind of prejudice that’s driven by something other than one’s one life experiences.
My LIFE EXPERIENCES have made me distrustful of white people and damned few white people can say the same thing about Black people.
Professor Bigfoot
@columbusqueen: So, bringing up white people in response to The Great Resegregation isn’t exactly that?
TBone
@Jeffg166: thank you for that. Points for class.
My beloved hubby looks and frequently sounds like a cross between Will Rogers and Denis Leary. Which reminds me to say (NOT directed to anyone in particular!) that opinions are like assholes. We all have ’em and some are better if they’re sat on. Some music in this regard:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UrgpZ0fUixs
Jackie
@Professor Bigfoot:
White folk aren’t the only ones wearing blinders.
And this:
This is why I often don’t post. Who are you to diagnose that most of us are racist? Do you even read what you write before hitting the post button?
Martin
@gwangung: I’m not sure how you adjust to that and still have this work. One of the reasons my comments tend to be so long is that I qualify a LOT of shit. One result of that is a lot of people just don’t read my comments because they’re too long. That’s an essential part of communication – brevity resulting from an assumption of what you can leave out. People complain about Maddow doing too much background information – she assumes that’s needed. You assert that can be assumed. Maybe it can’t be?
Further, it’s impossible to demand that people account for their own blind spots – they can’t, that’s why it’s a blind spot. It needs to be pointed out to them. But you can do that in a good faith way ‘this could be interpreted as…’ and take their response at face value, or you could not do that. Constructive feedback requires that both parties agree they are working in good faith. If one party does not, then that feedback cannot be constructive. See my previous comment.
And you also have a conundrum baked into your statement – one that I’ve been accused of here. If long time acquaintances cannot be trusted based on their past statements, then you have to assume even the ‘correctly stated’ statements are duplicitous. That was the source of one of my breaks from here – when a group of commenters revealed that they felt everything I’d said here in the last 15 years was just a smokescreen – that I was really here to undermine the community and they were just waiting for that to be finally revealed. That’s not an environment anyone can operate in because it no longer matters what you say – nothing you say can be trusted.
You have to pick what community you can trust. I can’t trust this community. There are a lot of individuals here I do trust, but the broader community I cannot, so I have pulled back on my participation. I’m not happy about that, but when I can’t assume good faith on the part of other people here, then I just become part of the problem by staying.
Ruckus
I’ve been gone for what 2-3 hrs and the entire rear end output of all the cattle in the US hits the fan at one time? OK, I haven’t yet gone back and read everything posted today but still a blowup of epic proportions?
Well it is somewhat a rather crappy time in the US political stage, with a 78 yr old president who has maybe 2 very small pebble sized brains cells to rub together – and which doing so creates so little actual thought and all of it has zero logic associated with said thought, that nothing good ever comes from it, and enough population that voted for him that one has to ask – how do that many people manage to stick their heads up their exhaust ports all at the same time? And I’m assuming, considering the latest 3 posts, that I missed an epic 2-3 hrs. Which I’m not actually in the mood currently to read.
Sorry to see mistermix leave, sorry John for whatever has happened in the last 2-3 hrs, sorry what our country is going through, but my question is – What is the best way and what is the worst way to get through all this bull and shit? The current government isn’t going to save us, hell it’s a huge part of the problem. Not that it wants to be, but look who is actually in charge, an unelected, super wealthy, immigrant “citizen,” with his hand up the very large exit orifice of the “elected” president. In my 3/4 of a century I’ve seen some political crap but this takes the cake and every other food item everywhere.
I was going to read it all but I think taking a break for at least a couple more hours might just be best for my mental health. One thought though. Let us think and work together because this is our country, ALL OF OURS on all sides of the political spectrum. We can make it worse and we can make it better. As an old I have a somewhat limited time here. I’d like to live long enough to see it get a lot better. Hopefully soon.
prostratedragon
“Word Association,” SNL
TBone
@prostratedragon: always always on point right when we need ya!
Another Scott
@prostratedragon: I instantly knew what that was before clicking on it, but clicked on it anyway.
:-)
Thanks.
Best wishes,
Scott.
NotoriousJRT
@Another Scott: thank you for the link. I will definitely check it out, but I did have a “more in person, please not Chuck Schumer,” visible communication in mind. Baby steps, perhaps. My own sense of my mortality makes me in a rush, I guess.
HopefullyNotcassandra
@The Thin Black Duke:
I saw what you saw. We are in the weeds, though. Most of our neighbors are not.
I can assure you a boatload of voters were not exposed to the full ugly dump experience. At the risk of sounding like a broken record, the news environment in a lot of this country is right wing frame ad nauseum.
America is not as racist as Mr. Trump’s minions would have you believe.
Do not forget how we reacted to the murder of George Floyd. That was real. Most of what the GOP puts out is cosplaying astroturf.
K-Mo
@The Thin Black Duke: This seems like reasonable argument, respectfully phrased.
E.
@cain: I was glad to read this. Me too. I grew up in rural Oregon in the 1960s. I never saw a Black person in real life until I grew up and went to college out of state. But I saw lots and lots of Black people on TV, playing the criminals. To this day if my brain needs an image of a criminal, it calls up a Black person. And i beat it down. And it keeps happening.
dnfree
@Martin: I think this is very well put. People can express themselves poorly at one time or another, or fail to sufficiently qualify their comment with explanations or exceptions, but unless proven repeatedly to be TRYING to be disruptive or obnoxious, just give a little leeway.
Ruckus
@TBone:
opinions are like assholes. We all have ’em and some are better if they’re sat on.
First – THIS.
Second, a rather valuable thing to remember. We are supposed to be a part of a rather large group of humans, which means we will very likely never agree on every aspect of whatever thought any human has. But of course, as humans we often think that every thought in our heads is the correct one for everyone else.
Your saying, which is fantastic, says that opinions are thoughts that we’d like others to have and they have the right to agree or disagree with us. Even if they are exhaust product. Because opinions are often not facts. It might be that we want them to be but if they were we could call them facts, not opinions.
Gvg
@Professor Bigfoot: honestly, I forget Jeffries is black. He is just a guy. But I haven’t been criticizing much because I don’t yet know what they should be doing. If I had their job, I’d be confused and shocked.
I did not think we would lose this much. I didn’t think this poorly of the voters. And Trump unleashing Musk the vengeful fool on us was a plot twist.
But mostly I don’t stop to remember.
Also I think being the leader of the house democrats is a congressional job and not a meant to be the leader of a popular resistance nor an ad campaign. They are all legislators making laws and budgets not rebel alliance. that’s why they aren’t doing what “people” want them to do. It’s a new demand that has never been part of their job before.
Bupalos
I think this thread is a good living example of why hyper identity politics is a practical political dead end for the party. I’m in more or less agreement with the hyper identity folks about the salience of ethnicity and gender in cultural term and the importance of continuing to grapple with that. Cast in political terms it simply obscures the nature of actual political possibilities and leaves us essentially babbling about nothing, getting nowhere, and alienating each other. It’s counterproductive navel gazing.
Mo MacArbie
I’ve been lurking here less lately, in case any of you have missed my scrolling by. Mistermix gets my goat a lot, but then so do many of the commenters. So we’re all assholes. Kumba-fuckin’-ya.
What I wonder about is how this collection of politically-aware folks so assiduously fails to actually practice politics in their written words. Oh, this place doesn’t count, we’re just venting. Well, we’re still venting about 2016, for crying out loud. Venting is a myth; anger is inexhaustible if nurtured so constantly.
As Raven observes, fuck it; drive on.
columbusqueen
@Professor Bigfoot: You are ignoring the fact that more than black folk are being resegregated. If you want serious allies to fight with you to prevent it, stop being an overbearing jackass. Also, stop responding with questions instead of actual answers. That reeks of bad faith BS.
TBone
@Ruckus:
Courtesy of Jeffg166:
– Will Rogers
Professor Bigfoot
@Jackie: Yes, most white people are racist, just like most men are sexists.
We live in a white male supremacist society.
My point is that there are unexamined beliefs that white people exhibit that have every appearance of being rooted in white supremacy.
I’m willing to recognize the sexist in me even as I fight against it; why is it y’all are utterly unwilling to address the white supremacy that you’ve grown up with?
columbusqueen
@Gvg: Very true, & well said.
Bupalos
I think Trump’s reign is going to solve this for a lot of people.
Professor Bigfoot
@Another Scott: Heh, I guffawed just reading the link!
Bupalos
@Professor Bigfoot: sure sounds to me like it’s because we’re inferior to you. Can you think of any other reason why you manage to grapple with your weaknesses but we so steadfastly refuse to?
Professor Bigfoot
@columbusqueen: Sorry, for the 47%.
It’s a damn shame.
But the 53% who voted with the Nazis I should be concerned about?
chemiclord
@Professor Bigfoot: This is something that I’ve noticed in a lot of my fellow melanin-deficient kin.
We tend to treat black people as a monolith, but we expect black people to regard us as individuals. That’s where you get so much of the bristling that “How dare you! I’m not racist!”
Eolirin
@John Cole: Can you walk through why think he should be in DC?
Other than optics, I mean. What’s he going to accomplish there in the time that he’s not there?
Because I think if you step through why you think it’s imperative that he be in DC, it would be really helpful as to where the disconnect is.
TBone
@Bupalos: dick jokes trigger finger itchy.
Yep, there it is.
Why is a man so thick?
Because he only has that tiny hole in his penis to get oxygen to his brain.
TBone
PSA Guess Who’s Coming to Dinner just started on TCM!
shallok
@The Thin Black Duke: How does Jeffries book extoll black excellence?
My two cents is that people are upset that it appears he is busy making money (so far as I know he is not donating his profits) while nazis try to destroy the country. There would probably be less of a backlash if it was a more serious book, rather than one for all ages.
Ruckus
@Professor Bigfoot:
We don’t know if that’s why every voter that clicked the shitforbrains box on their ballet did so. It is the result of that vote though. And he got a majority vote. Barely. But barely still wins the election.
Now to build upon your comment – and my answer above, a lot of white people can easily be called racist, even if they have no idea how to tie a noose or any concept of it. I know because I am a white person. I had zero part in being born with less melatonin and it doesn’t mean I have to be any sort of racist. Because that is taught bullshit. And I wasn’t taught it, I was taught the opposite. And my experience in 3/4 of a century of breathing is that humans can be complete and utter assholes if they give it a try, or they do not have to be in any way, which takes no effort whatsoever.
Hate is an emotion, and one that is extremely controllable, if one gives it even the slightest effort. Many do not.
K-Mo
@PJ: So hard to read through this thread and make sense of it. Then again I didn’t read the original thread that is being referenced. Nonetheless, your comment seems insightful.
les
@trollhattan: Hey, neither are we these days.
cain
@Martin: I hope you will continue to post your long form comments. I agree that it’s hard to trust the blog as a whole. But then most don’t respond to my posts so I seem to be spared a lot of this.
K-Mo
@Professor Bigfoot: You come across very much like a man.
Sister Golden Bear
@Professor Bigfoot: Dude, I’m on your side, and no I’m not asking to have sympathy for the 53% who voted for Nazis. And yes, lots of white people — including here — need to own the implications of their whiteness.
That said, your reply is kind of making the point about coming across as being dismissive about the intersectional aspects of the Great Resegregation.
I mean the federal government just defined me and other trans people out legal existence… All of trans people, not just the Black trans people.
geg6
@Gvg:
Sorry, but that’s bullshit. And ahistorical.
Ruckus
@BeenHereSince2003:
Sorry, this old, white fart says you are exactly wrong.
Sure someone may think that every word that comes out of someone else’s mouth is wrong, but in this case there are many ways to be racist and not see it, or be racist and not believe it. But if you get told you are being a racist to one person, in words or action, you very, very likely are. Because if you are a white person, in this country at least (and very, very likely most every other one as well) that what you are saying is racist, it extremely likely IS. It may not be the worst racist thing ever said, that does not mean it isn’t racist.
Never forget that this is a country that not all that long ago, in the history of this not all that old a country, had SLAVERY as a process to get cheap/free labor from human beings. And that hate may not be in your mind, but it still is in many. It may not be at the same level either, but it is still racial hate. And it still exists. Daily.
Professor Bigfoot
@Ruckus: I think this is what I really am on about: that it’s not your fault that you were raised white in a white supremacist country. It’s nothing you ever asked for.
But you can be aware of all the switches, knobs, and logic gates that white supremacy has wired into you, and choose to work on re-wiring that.
Again, like being a man in a patriarchal society— even the best dudes are bound to have some of those logic gates emplaced; and any man who’s truly grappled with it can tell you that sometimes, even he is surprised when it still comes out of him. But then he chews on that and adds it to who he becomes going forward.
Joe Biden was as not-racist a white man who ever walked; but even he made missteps (thoroughly exploited by conservatives).
It happens. The difference is how do you respond to it, when its pointed out?
Professor Bigfoot
@K-Mo: Yes, and?
cain
@E.:
My wife does a DEI class. One of the exercises she does is to close your eyes and think about a CEO or someone in power. Almost every time the person who comes up in their minds eye is a white male.
Might be harder for sports since if you said basketball you might get a 50/50 chance it is a black male, but not woman of any race.
Professor Bigfoot
@Sister Golden Bear: Fair point— file that one under “venting.”
Ruckus
@TBone:
OK that is funny.
Of course we have to actually look into the fact that every mammal on both sides of the gender divide has the same hole. Just is located in a somewhat slightly different area.
Professor Bigfoot
@cain: Yessssss… we’re literally wired to think that way by our society.
Because I would envision the same damn thing.
Geminid
@K-Mo: The post in question was only yesterday, and it’s not that long. It’s worth reading if you want to better understand what happened today.
NaijaGal
@John S.: Hakeem Jeffries has never been the Speaker of the House. I wish he had been but he’s never been.
As someone on BlueSky put it, Americans voted in literal segregationists (and misogynists), who are erasing people of color and women from public life. They gave segregationists the power of the presidency, the House, the Senate, and the Supreme Court and then have the nerve to ask Democrats, who are locked out of a majority in every single one of these bodies to fox the problem, *now*.
I’m an immigrant and so there are things about US life that I don’t fully understand, even after 36 years of living here. I admire AOC and Jasmine Crockett and Maxwell Frost and Robert Garcia and Chris Murphy but I understand that they would be a thousand times more effective if they had a majority in the House, the Senate, or both. They don’t. And I see that life simply continues after each person of color or woman who worked hard to achieve national prominence is replaced by an unqualified white man. The segregationists have the upper hand right now. I think they will overplay their hand, but it doesn’t feel good to watch them roll back the gains of the Civil Rights era.
Eolirin
Also, leadership isn’t making nice speeches. It’s effectively organizing and coordinating, and a lot of it is very invisible. The leader of the house minority also has a job to be the leader of the house democratic caucus, not the nation. Jeffries’s job is to align his caucus with democratic party leadership’s policy direction, to help set that direction, and to maximize winning elections.
If he manages to exploit fracture lines in the Republican caucus to kill their budget and gets a decent deal in negotiations to keep the government funded or raise the debt ceiling it’ll be a sign he’s good at what he’s supposed to be good at, but it’s also something that requires Republican consent to happen. If they can get all their members on board, it won’t matter how good Jeffries is with his caucus.
So it’s nearly impossible to tell how well of a job he’s currently doing those fronts from the outside, and on the elections point, we’ll need to see how the midterms go.
Pelosi was a phenomenal leader as Speaker, but did not do a good job on public speaking or messaging. So was Harry Reid. Both really required having power to fully demonstrate exactly how good they were, so when they were in minority positions there was a lot of sniping at them too.
Same applies to Schumer; he was involved in getting the Inflation Reduction Act through and does amazing fundraising work for Senate democrats, he’s pretty good at the actual job. People keep applying the wrong category of tasks to these people.
It’s not to organize people into a protest or civil disobedience movement. I suspect it would make it rather impossible for them to do their jobs if they were, because those are the kind of things that get you arrested.
They’re not there to be saviors. Someone who stands up and rallies the people to their banner and then we just all follow them and everything works out. Those don’t even exist.
And there’s nothing to direct people to do right now other than small things like supporting your local food pantries and stuff and turning up to protests. These things are currently being challenged in court, and public opinion doesn’t exactly need much pushing along. Events are kind of taking care of that themselves in terms of messaging and outreach. People are getting pissed off all on their own, our only task here is to keep it on Musk and Republicans.
So it’s really important to step back from the feelings of anxiety and let things play out, even though they’re going to be awful. People need to pace themselves. Desperately wanting the bad thing not to happen doesn’t mean it can be stopped, and desperately looking for someone who isn’t doing enough isn’t a solution to coming to grips with that.
And it doesn’t mean it can’t be survived. And then eventually made better. But we need to be more realistic about how we’re projecting our anxiety into a desperate search for a way to make a situation that cannot magically be made damage free into one in which we no longer need to be anxious. Y’all need to get used to being anxious. Y’all need to get used to feeling despair. I’m sympathetic, because I’ve had to be doing that almost my whole life and it takes time to figure it out. Those of you who haven’t are getting a crash course in it, but it isn’t going to go away, not any time soon.
The only thing we can do are the things we, personally, can actually do. Find even small things to make anything better and do them. Stop wasting lots of time worrying about whether politicians are saying the right words in the right order and exhibiting enough steely eyed resolve when they don’t have power enough to do more than they’re already doing in terms of actions that lead to direct and tangible outcomes; that is, don’t get so hung up on very online analysis of messaging and optics and fuzzy performative displays of effort that don’t result in changes.
But do call your congresspeople and senators to complain. There is a value in the volume of public upset. There’s just nothing more that can be done there right now.
Every action that could be taken by Congress requires the consent of Republicans. They could impeach and remove Trump tomorrow if they decided they had enough. That option always exists for them. They can choose not to gut social programs to cut billionaire taxes. Just like Russia can end the war in Ukraine whenever they want just by stopping.
They won’t, but they are making a choice. And we do not have the means to force that choice on them, just to make them deal with the consequences long and hard enough to hopefully grind them down and get ourselves back to where it’s possible.
That’s not going to be fast. A lot of bad things are going to happen in the meantime. Finding a way to acceptance and grace in the face of that is going to be necessary.
John S.
@NaijaGal:
Yes, and the fourth or fifth time on this thread, I have acknowledged that I was mistaken. Apparently, I’m one of the few people able to admit they make mistakes.
Eolirin
@John S.: People coming into the thread will often not read all of the replies after the thing they’re responding to, if those responses were even posted yet while they were busy replying.
Because of how commenting works here, especially with large or quickly moving threads, it’s highly unlikely anyone responding to you saw anyone else who responded to you before commenting.
When you make an error like that multiple replies are going to happen, some of them from late comers, and you should expect it. It’s usually not intended to be a pile on.
Ruckus
@Professor Bigfoot:
As I’ve said here before, I am an old white man. I don’t know that I’d say most white people are racist.
I would unequivocally state that many, many are. How many? I have no clue. But in my 3/4 of a century I’ve dealt with many, many humans. I served in the USN and had a sizable percentage of men of color on the ship I served on. This was over 1/2 a century ago so racism was more prolific. But we were treated the same, white or black, at least in front of others. It’s not fun to learn that other humans think of you as scum because there is a ranking process in the military, there has to be somewhat of one to make things work, and my experience is that a percentage of humans HATE anyone they think or know is beneath them in any way, shape or form. And in the military you wear that badge of “your place” on your sleeve or collar. In this country, even today it is, as you well know, it’s the color of your skin. But there is an issue, and that is that this concept is NOT universal. Not everyone sees skin color as a controlling issue in humanity. Or at least not as many as did when I was born, quite a few decades ago. I live in a senior’s apartment complex and a fair number of my immediate neighbors are black. I’m building a piece of furniture for one couple, as I’ve built all of my own furniture and they like the style.
The world, at least in the US is and has been changing in regard to race. Is it changing fast enough? NO, I do not think so. But then it’s humanity, it never does. It has been changing a lot more than it used to in this regard and I would very much say it still has a ways to go. Will it ever get all the way there? I’d bet real money, not in my lifetime. Even if I live to be 100 yrs old.
schrodingers_cat
@Starfish (she/her): Are you referring to me? I have never compared my experience to that of black people. Show me where I have?
sab
@Professor Bigfoot: I hear you.
My husband and I are elderly white people in retirement We have been shocked and angry and sad since November. We are deeply ashamed of our country. My stepsons feel the much the same.
My stepdaughter with a black autistic daughter is all that, and also absolutely terrified about the future for her child. It’s an entirely different level of stress and anger.
I have always appreciated your willingness to interact with white people here.
Betty Cracker
@Nukular Biskits: FWIW, you are making more sense than most. In my opinion. Thank you.
@cckids: Weird, huh?
@K-Mo: Right? Uncanny.
Redshift
This is probably a dead thread at this point, but I’ll put in my two cents anyway. I’m sorry to see MM go, he was a prolific writer and covered a lot of important stuff. But I have to say, there was a time when I was skipping most MM posts because I never knew when an otherwise useful one would include a gratuitous slam against everyone who disagreed with him that would piss me off for a couple of hours. And yeah, that happens regularly in the comments, but it lands differently in a FP post, kind of poisons the discussion in advance. (I thought about emailing the blogfather to nudge him about it, probably should have.)
schrodingers_cat
@Starfish (she/her): Are you blaming me for the bigotry of some Indian techbros? WTF?
Eolirin
@Professor Bigfoot: I think people are getting caught up on the framing because you’re challenging the way they identify. I’m not really opposed to challenging that, but without a thorough exploration of the limits and nature of identity, I think it just leads to a knee-jerk defensiveness.
And I think that leads to kind of missing the point, and I think it may be clearer, or maybe more helpful, if we think about it like this?
Racism isn’t really a character trait, but a quality that exists in a thought, a behavior, an action, or a system. That quality diminishes and oppresses. It doesn’t matter if it’s intentional or not.
So, I don’t think it’s possible to actually be a racist, just like it isn’t possible to be a good person, or a bad person. Racism is a thing that is done by people, not a way to define groups of people.
Everyone, literally everyone, will do good things, and bad things and racist things and not racist things. Being better is about trying to shift the balance more toward the good and the not racist.
No one gets off the hook because they aren’t a racist, because there’s no such thing in the first place, and no one is irredeemable because they are. There are people who strongly identify with racist ideologies, but it’s still the ideology and the identity as expressed through their behaviors and not the person. They can change those things and then try to be better. There is always the choice to stop.
If it’s a more mutable thing it’s easier to avoid building an identity around and it avoids the pitfall of trying to find evidence that does or doesn’t support the label. Which people love to get hung up on.
TBone
@Ruckus: some have a cloaca. Thankfully not me hahahaha!
Chris Johnson
Not everybody gets everything
Not everything lasts.
John Cole personally rescued me when a front pager that I was getting aggressive with, sent me threatening emails like some 4chan kid, demanding that I not ‘work the refs’ and then banned me. John stepped in, trying to cool things off, and I duly stayed the hell away from the guy.
I’d been pushy, you see, because it seemed to me some front pagers acted like they were there to push some kind of trollish agenda, whether it was harping on talking points I associate with Kremlin skullduggery, or simply harping on the unstoppable power of the Russians. In each case there’d be a batch of people only found in their threads, and I’d just build up a huge pie filter, in part by lurking and trying to single out folks that only supported those people.
It was goddamn hopeless. Turns out everyone can be goaded into taking some Kremlin angle or other. When I trusted Bernie Sanders, I was one of the sus crowd myself. That gradually ended but the nym I used still lives in infamy ;P
And that’s why not everything lasts. Without a profoundly resonant thing in common, we can’t stand up against second-order trolling. I’ve sided with @blacksky over Hakeem Jeffries and his civics book: it’s absurd to me to think that guy is best used hurling molotovs at Republicans, we absolutely have to have people able to rebuild, who remember what was.
We are not able to stand against second-order trolling, nor is anyone else it seems, but the technique starts to eat shit once the actual land gets annexed and the actual bombs start falling, and continue. My hope is that Europe can look at us as a warning of what happens to you when you let this win. We will demonstrate the cost you pay by falling for it.
The bottom line is that you’re always promised candy and a pony when you fight your countrymen because you’re so right and they’re clearly traitors and possibly spies. You’re promised if you do this ONE thing perfectly and kill your countrymen and stop them from being ‘feckless’ or ‘liars and traitors’ or etc etc etc, why then you’ll win!
Note that the Kremlin has been hammering race and civil war through every avenue, every paid agent, they could possibly use, for years and years now, and still people seem to think it’s organic and just a natural concern to have.
It’s a fool’s errand: only Putin gets to win and he’s directing the very same people you’re mad at, to be mad at YOU. If it ain’t first order trolling and treachery it’s second and third order.
Not everything lasts. I posted through two nyms here and made some friends and saw some incredible drama and intrigue over the years, and now I see that I did a fairly good job staying away from what I thought were bad actors, only to see ’em all turn on each other and everything fall apart. There were no bad actors. There were just fallible humans and that’s enough to ruin everything.
Whatever. Not everything lasts.
TBone
Remember, please! There is nothing wrong with tonic masculinity!
TBone
@Chris Johnson: always glad to see you here. This:
Professor Bigfoot
@sab: I have a trans grandson.
I am terrified for him… really, I wish he’d bolt this fucking country; he’s got the brains and the work ethic, but… <sigh>
ETA: but I shoulda said first, thank you for the kind words. Like as in, “thanks, I needed that!” ;)
Chris Johnson
@TBone: The ironic thing is that the scrap is between two people who are probably just hotheads, both of whom I don’t trust, and both of whom I avoid.
Not everything lasts. Second and third order trolling, man. I’m just appalled.
I’m the one who got the Prof talking about Porsches and acknowledging that white people can be just as mean to each other as they are to black people: this had not occurred to him, he thought we had some cookout or something and were cool with each other. Honestly it would be the most perfect if the two guys scrapping were BOTH super white, but one’s apparently not, for all the difference it made.
Or is that what you’re MEANT TO THINK AHAHAHA! because he’s actually named Boris and it’s all a terrible plot!
:P
Not everything lasts.
All I can do is, y’know, think of Prof as the Porsche fan (who paid less for his than I paid for my Subaru, repairs excepted) and know there’s really nothing I can do.
A couple women from #blacksky taught me that you can drink hot water in the morning like it was coffee. Mind blown. We white folks don’t treat ourselves any better than we treat anybody else. If I have to fail and lose everything, may it be gradually, and while trying to be kind as much as I can (which won’t be all the time! some of the time.)
schrodingers_cat
@Professor Bigfoot: Check out #104.
Professor Bigfoot
@Chris Johnson: Yeah, that really was a revelation.
”They ain’t like us,” for real.
And given that, what more could I ask?
All I can say is, “oh, you poor bastards.”
John S.
@Eolirin:
It’s cool, I’m not taking it personally. If anything, I’m happy to serve as a reminder that people can — and do — make mistakes, and it’s ok to say “I was wrong.” 🙂
Professor Bigfoot
@schrodingers_cat:
Jesus H. Christ, that was about YOU?
Speaking as a Black man who’s great great grandfather actually shows up in a Sons of Confederate Veterans hagiography, I’ve NEVER seen you do anything of the sort.
But hey, again, the fact that you are of South Asian descent means both that you can SEE how Black people are treated by this society; and I guess seeing it means you must be claiming that you’ve dealt with the exact same things.
Whiteness is a powerful drug.
PatD
@Professor Bigfoot: Always be gate-keeping.
Chris Johnson
@Professor Bigfoot: And stay watchful. We have to! But let’s not have that ‘the white folk are uniquely toxic and racist to black folk and are doubtless super kind to each other, the bastards’.
Our savagery might actually save the world if we can get our damn heads straight and realise we’ve been played. If it does, we’ll still be kind of savage and sad and with a lot to learn about being civilized.
May everybody sort of average out eventually, if we get that far. We’re not nearly there.
Do you realize how mindblowing it is to properly understand what ‘say their names’ means to a black person? The simple ACKNOWLEDGEMENT OF HUMANITY, the accounting of a soul. We often don’t allow ourselves that, so white folk act like it’s a trick. It’s begging people to adopt a humanity they are strangers to.
I better get back to work or I’ll get really depressed. w/ev.
schrodingers_cat
@Professor Bigfoot: I am not 100% sure but they seemed to blame me for Kash Patel not that long ago. So it is possible. Or may be it is someone else. I am waiting for their answer.
BellyCat
@sentient ai from the future: Similarly in custody court. Five and a half years before custody was (ahem..) “heard”. Five judges recused. Hoping your experience is going better than mine.
Hang in there. Feel free to get my contact info from a front pager if you ever need/want another sympathetic ear.
schrodingers_cat
@Professor Bigfoot: Thanks.
columbusqueen
@Chris Johnson: Yeah, I distrust racist redneck types the most, because those are the kind of bullying assholes who made my school days miserable. It was partly from my bookish geekiness, but also because even as a girl I refused to join in the poisonous racism I was swimming in. I cross swords occasionally with old classmates on FB, & most of them are still racist pigs. I’ll never go to a high school reunion now; they make me even sicker than before.
Ruckus
@Professor Bigfoot:
This is in response to your comment at #56.
It is a human trait that your lived experiences are more imprinted in you brain and that it takes a lot to see other humans perspective, no matter the cause of their perspective may be something that person can not experience. Part of my experience was in being a part time mental health counselor for 4 yrs. We got training and weekly groups with other counselors discussing our clients and their and our issues. It was an eye opening experience to find that outside of racism most of us have somewhat similar lives and issues. Sure there are things and experiences that some/many of us may never have. As stated above I served in the USN during a war and most of the people I know have never served in the military, so we can have some rather different experiences. I think that if for no other reason, serving introduced me to a lot of people I’d never have met otherwise. Many of them were black and our life experiences were quite a bit different. But I see less and less of this today than over half a century ago. I see the US, at least where I live in SoCal, is getting better for everyone, I see and live around many people of color and countries. So maybe my perspective is different than it would be if I lived in other parts of the country. Because life is different in the states I’ve traveled and worked in, all 49 of them (professional sports). Is it good enough? I’d say no, first because we still have a fight going on for equality. Is it better than half a century ago? I’d say yes. Does it need to get better yet? Yes it does. Will it? I do my part, but many still work against it. I wish I had an answer but I don’t, other than it used to be worse.
satby
@The Thin Black Duke: I hope you come back to front paging more. I always think you state things so well.
Ruckus
@Professor Bigfoot:
I used to manufacture 3D molds for plastic products. Over time we got to where we could machine 3 dimensions at one time strictly through mathematics using a computer, as the concept and computer software got far better. I’m not up on current programs but there are a number of them that do the work just fine.
K-Mo
@Geminid: OK challenge accepted. I read through fairly quickly but I didn’t think the animosity level was especially high relative to any other day on BJ. It was a dumb way of making a defensible but arguable criticism, some people made some general disparagement of MM that weren’t very nice but weren’t awful and then MM came in guns ablazing with some dismissive name calling. It didn’t register to me as an especially vicious exchange all around but I wasn’t in it so (shrug).
No to dredge up old wounds but I had several people tell me to F off last summer.
sab
@Professor Bigfoot: I have a trans niece who had lived her whole life in Ohio, had friends she made in preschool day care, but left Ohio because it is so hostile. She reluctantly made it back for my dad’s funeral, and I doubt she will ever come back again.
She also is biracial, has a nationalized father, and cousins she is close to who live elsewhere. Trumps passport fuckery means she won’t see them for quite a while.
Grrr. I joke but I am just heartsick. We are well on our way to being on the wrong side of an iron curtain and we actually voted for it.
BeenHereSince2003
@Ruckus:
Yes, of course, white people “miss” some racism and should often listen to other people about this shit and take what they say seriously. That doesn’t mean suspending critical thinking to the point where you accept that
In practice, accepting these premises has led progressive white people to march to the drum of disturbed or just cynically manipulative people, with disastrous results. It means that 99 normal poc can say “nah, that’s fine” and 1 fucking kook can say otherwise and progressive white people default to the opinion of the kook …. and look kooky themselves.
The idea that calling HJ’s book a “children’s book” was racist is fucking dumb. Prof Bigfoot trying to pull out his black-person-card and decree by fiat that it is racist, is being a manipulative asshole. They are common on the internet.
Don’t listen to people who tell you not to think for yourself or use your own judgement. That is what manipulative assholes do. Don’t let yourself be manipulated by an asshole.
kindness
Boy did I pick a good times to run the pup at the park & then his favorite dog park. Yea….temperatures have been rising here as well as elsewhere. Thank you for humoring us so John. Really. I appreciate it. You are right though. We can be a vengeful bunch of pricks. It’s a Boomer thing for many of us.
Professor Bigfoot
@Ruckus: In my last great job I worked with a bunch of real hotshot mechanical engineers who could whip up a 3D model quicker than I could sketch a box on paper. INTIMIDATING!
Now that I’ve gotten into 3D printing, I’ve been forced to learn SOME 3D modeling software. Unfortunately, none of them were (to me) intuitive AT ALL until I ran across TinkerCad. It’s a bit simplistic, but it’s let me run up a bunch of specialized Gridfinity bins.
I did a li’l toolbox with various bits in it that serves pretty well.
(got a punch and mallet set holder printing as I type
Professor Bigfoot
@sab: All that… but you know the saying, “anger is just fear’s bodyguard?”
I think about what my grandson and your niece and every other targeted human being is dealing with and I’m like that LaVar Burton quote- “I am absolutely filled with rage.”
sab
@Professor Bigfoot: Me too. I try to keep calm. I hate when my husband goes berserk on politicsl rants, but…
I was born in February 1954., in North Carolina of Ohio parents. Brown v Board of Education came out in May.
My (antiCatholic but admiring) mom always told me that the Catholic bishop of North Carolina came out that summer and said the Supreme Court has spoken. Our parochial schools will integrate this Fall. She always thought that was amazing.
Wouldn’t happen now.
ETA I feel like all the hard-earned progress of my entire lifetime just disappeared in a month. I cannot imagine what you feel, having lived it and not just observed it.
Steve LaBonne
@BeenHereSince2003: Let me explain something to you that has applications far beyond discussions of race. If someone is feeling something, telling them they’re not supposed to be feeling it because that hurts your feefees constitutes being an asshole. Those who oppose fascism would do well to make an extra effort not to be assholes, because we need one another.
Geminid
@K-Mo: Well, it wasn’t really a challenge. I just thought it was important to see the post that precipitated today’s events so as to understand them better. It probably wouldn’t hurt for others to re-read it either
Ed. People still carry grudges from last summer. Personally, I think it’s best to.turn the page on that one. But I’m not in charge of anyone but myself.
siddhartha
As Martin Luther King said, “Whites, it must frankly be said, are not putting a similar mass effort to reeducate themselves out of their racial ignorance. It is an aspect of their sense of superiority that white people believe that they have so little to learn.”
So, no, a statement about racism from a nonwhite person does not lead to curiosity as to how so. (For the record: I missed the entire thing. I am talking about my own experience and what I’ve read.) It leads to white male presumption that what he demands alone constitutes reasonable discourse and what you have to say is a “non-response.” Even as you are trying to change a white supremacist frame of conversation. I am so sorry Professor Bigfoot. This is a white blog and a diligent white commentariat. Sure, a few get through.
Apparently, a rational assumption based on empirical evidence is the definition of discrimination but it’s somehow your responsibility to prove that the empirical reality that necessitated the rational assumption actually exists? Or that there is some equivalence between a white person talking about “black people” and a black person talking about “white people” because we apparently exist in a vacuum as “white” and “black.” This despite the perpetual cliche… if Obama had done this. No black person’s statements comes with the force of centuries of enshrined white supremacy which includes lynching for wanting your rake back. Heck Obama couldn’t even call Trayvon Martin his own son or wear a tan suit or call a racist white cop stupid for doing what he did. But that stupid racist white cop sure got a beer with the President. And then the canard–is it always? is it once? is it everywhere (being racist)? when you’re are trying to get at the framing of the whole conversation to begin with where white supremcist presumptions are already built in. Then there’s the other canard: not all white women or people. 1. all white people benefit from white supremacy regardless of vote. 2. the retort reinstates white women’s innocence by remarkably placing them as the victims of the victims of white supremacy.3. voila. we’re back to recentering white people/women instead of the marginalized that that demographic has perennially fucked over and talking about THEM as victims (AGAIN).
So here we are trying find community amidst alleged allies but we’re told to tone it down because that’s why they apparently can’t hear us (narrator: that’s never been why they don’t hear us).
Again, centuries of trying to battle these white self-centering mechanisms that masquerade as reasonable discourse and in fact constitute white flight.
Like I said, I missed the entire post and comments. But I have never felt welcome here, that even white TERF voices are more welcome in the comments than women of color, and that’s not even getting at what happened to ABL and the few times trans FP decided to post. This place refuses to get the enervating soul crushing labor and injury of trying to decenter whiteness over and over again. It’s never being able to get to the conversation about human flourishing because actual objective reality still requires Racism 101. (And please don’t @ me about intersectionality and class. Racism 101: It should be obvious I know.). But it is this abjectly steadfast refusal that has played a part in where we are today. (Despite my expertise on these issues on so many fronts, I won’t even sign up for authors in our midst because I am worried about the racist and sexist refusal to change the frame before we even get to any content.) I don’t know what more needs to happen.
And just to remind all (and yes, I said all; knowing is different than centering) WW about reproductive rights: before there was Gilead, there was Sweet Home.
Ruckus
@The Thin Black Duke:
Maybe racism wasn’t the only determining factor, but it’s a big one. And it’s a factor that black people see play out repeatedly.
My prior comments on this post may not seem like I agree with you here, but I do. One of the reasons I do is my history and in my current life. I use public transit a lot and many of the rest of my fellow commuters are people of darker shades than I am, quite often making me in that situation a minority as a white person. I find that most humans I sit with are decent human beings, and that the rest of the travelers see the same issues with the same very small number of people that I do. It isn’t skin color that is the issue, it’s the activity and speech of the very few that cause any trouble. Most of us just want to get to one place or another. I used to work in professional sports and used public transit of all types 8 months a year and the same concept applied as above, it was always one or two people that caused trouble if anyone did and they could be any color of human.
Jackie
@Professor Bigfoot:
You have absolutely no clue what I grew up with.
You’re proving my point. Putting all of us in one basket shows your prejudice against anyone not black.
Steve LaBonne
@Jackie: Be serious. Every American has grown up with white supremacy. Working on escaping its influence is lifelong work for all of us who are defined as white. This is not a question of personal character. Fish don’t know they are swimming in water.
Ella in New Mexico
@Professor Bigfoot:
Of COURSE it’s “not all white people,” but IT’S SO GODDAMN MANY OF YOU that we’re enjoying President for Life Trump now
Unless they’re some kind of sick fucking spy, NOT A SINGLE WHITE PERSON AT BALLOON JUICE VOTED FOR TRUMP.
You like it it when people make statements that throw all black people into one category instead of understanding black people are not a monolith?
How many times and ways can I or anyone else say it: WE’RE here at BJ are NOT THE ENEMY.
THIS is the Good Place, friend.
K-Mo
@Redshift: That clocks.
NaijaGal
@John S.: Sorry – I hadn’t read the entire thread before responding (I should do that more often to avoid piling on).
Oh and my response has a typo – fox should be fix.
sab
@schrodingers_cat: Somehow I cannot imagining you thinking Kash Patel was a good fit for the FBI. My husband sometimes does say I lack imagination.
Ruckus
@Professor Bigfoot:
I feel it because it affects all of us. Quite possibly people of color more than my white ass but still, I don’t call this person who got elected shitforbrains for no reason. He’s not good in so many ways that he should never have been elected the last time either.
This country is still rather racist. There I said it. It isn’t as bad as I remember decades ago, but it ain’t good either. (I worked in South Central LA for decades.) This is a country that believed in racism and slavery. And I’d bet that more than a few citizens still do. I will take any advice on how to fix that, from anyone. I just no idea/concept on how to fix humanity.
K-Mo
@Geminid: Yeah I think we all gave each other a mulligan on the whole Biden-to-Kamala affair. All I’m saying is, by historical standards this squabble wouldn’t have registered for me if it weren’t for this thread (including MM’s exit).
K-Mo
@sab: I believe some folks were mad at SC because she was drawing parallels between her experience as a South Asian and theirs as an ADOS that didn’t ring true to them. And, like in today’s discussion, there wasn’t sufficient grace afforded in either direction to constructively move things forward.
See also, posters in this thread who note that they are POC or in MMs case that they had a Latina mother. That might not have the cred for someone who emphasized the unique experience of ADOS.
Ruckus
@cckids:
Just for reference, as an old white man, I will say that I’ve voted for every woman who has run for president. And many who have run in CA for any office. Because I see that many men at least seem to run for the prize of wining – just to win. Every woman I’ve voted for at the very least seemed to be running because they wanted to make this a better place. And many of them did exactly that, to at least try to make this a better city/county/state/country. They didn’t all succeed, but then neither have all the men.
Spanish Moss
@Professor Bigfoot:
This sentiment is so offensive I am almost speechless. As a female who has been sexually assaulted twice and experienced much bias in my career in a male-dominated tech field, I NEVER think this way about a man I don’t know. Careful for my physical safety in isolated surroundings, yes, but assuming a man I don’t know is a jerk, no. This to me is the very definition of bigotry.
The comments have way too much emphasis on general demographics for a healthy discussion. More focus on behavior would be better — talk about racists rather than white people, etc.
Geminid
@K-Mo: I just see the events of July as a one-off. We never had a Democratic President this old, and we won’t have one again. I doubt if someone over 60 will win the nomination over the next three cycles at least.
Nominees will more likely be in Bill Clinton’s and Barack Obama’s range. That’s not a problem in my opinion because we have enough younger prospects to choose from.
So there is little to gain by refighting that war. I happen to believe the same about the whole Gaza controversy, but that is a different story, and it’s not over for the people directly affected.
sab
@Spanish Moss: I am a woman and I cannot believe that with your stated experience you are still that naive, unless you are just actually lying, either about your experience or your reaction. My guess is lying about the first.
schrodingers_cat
@sab: IDK about imagination but what you don’t lack is empathy. I am disgusted by the entire cabinet of Orange Error 2.0. Especially more disappointed people who share my country of origin. There are people you can see one example here, who will use people like Patel as an excuse to hate on all Indian-Americans.
And 2) People like Patel and Vance’s wife should know better than to lend a brown face for white supremacy.
Spanish Moss
@sab: It isn’t clear to me what you think I might be lying about. I was sexually assaulted twice, once in my late teens and once in my twenties. I am a 64-year-old woman with four sons, I worked in tech for 30+ years. I have spent much of my life surrounded by men. I am hardly naive. I don’t understand your response at all.
sab
@Spanish Moss: So you still just trust random men. Fine. Whatever.
sab
@schrodingers_cat: Sorry. You missed the // I didn’t type.
I am actually very sorry I didn’t type them because I thought you knew my position.
ETA Either I am nutz or this whole blog is nutz tonight.
Fighting fiercely with known supporters.
Spanish Moss
@sab: No, I give them the benefit of the doubt. Big difference.
If you would like an example of the accusatory nature of some of the comments, please consider your response. It isn’t clear to me why you felt it necessary to suggest I might be lying rather than simply disagreeing with me.
sab
My cats and my husband think I am neglecting housework. I think rhey have a good point.
schrodingers_cat
@sab: I got it! But I was just making sure that my position is not misconstrued by my supposed allies on the blog.
sab
@schrodingers_cat: I like you a lot. Should we just pie each other to prevent mutual or not mutual misunderstanding. Might be helpful or a good idea.
I would be extremely sad.
YY_Sima Qian
I went to bed (late at night for me) being sad for the state of this blog. I wake this morning, having read through all of the comments, actually somewhat encouraged. There is actually more communication, & mostly in a way that do not shut down further discussion.
In this community, I recommend that we all operate more in the empathetic mode.
Ruckus
@Ella in New Mexico:
Nancy Smash had the advantage of time in office. Now often that doesn’t seem to matter but there are times that it does. And I think that part of her abilities was her time in office. She knew how to make the place work for her, to get the desired effect most of the time. And in a position like that, most of the time is a big deal. Now because Hakeem is relatively new in town, at the very least he has to prove himself. Not to us but to the rest of the members. I’d bet that is just a tad more difficult than some would imagine. I’ve been in some positions of authority, not to this level for sure but it is entirely different than just being a member of a group of humans. I ran a department on a US Navy vessel for almost two years, not because of my rank but in spite of it, as I was the highest ranked in the department. And yes some higher ups/officers did not in any way approve of this, but they had no choice, I was the only one on board who was trained in managing/repairing the specialized equipment of this department, which was vital to all operations, such as which way was which.
schrodingers_cat
@sab: I would never pie you. I like you too. You are quirky and empathetic. BTW which camera did you decide to get.
Ruckus
@Professor Bigfoot:
I believe that most white people know what’s racist and what isn’t.
How they USE or DON’T USE those words or ideas, ever is what makes them racist or not. Now that may not be true for a way too large number of white people but then I’m an old and have to say that what I hear is a hell of a lot less racist than I used to hear years ago. And I was very lucky to work with black people starting decades ago and serve with them in the USN. It didn’t change my direction in any way, it didn’t need to but what it did was open my eyes to humanity as a whole. This started in my home town that had several elementary schools but one junior and one senior high school. My elementary school had as far as I can remember zero black students but the junior and senior high schools had a fair number. And the high school when I was a freshman still had students from the next town, which had no HS at that time. That exposure in and out of class at that age was significant for me. And to me. It didn’t change my outlook on racism in any way, it didn’t need to, but it did show me that not everyone that looked like me believed in humanity the same as I did.
Ruckus
@Nukular Biskits:
I’m not The Thin Black Duke but it seems to this old fart that may not always be necessary but it should always be on the back of your mind in a crowd. Because racism still exists in this country. It’s not quite as obvious in some parts as it was 50 yrs ago but it still exists and still needs to be looked out for.
I use a lot of public transit in LA county these days because my dentist and doc are on the other side of the county and gas is over $4/gal. And while I’ve never been the only white person on the electric train system, but I’m often one of a very few. Including the driver. Most of the time everyone minds their own business but a fair number of conversations have occurred over the years and have been worth while. I’ve said for decades that humanity takes all kinds, and one sees most of them on the train.
anitamargarita
@cckids: thank you, so much more rational than my “fuck you” response
Ruckus
@Professor Bigfoot:
Good questions/points.
As a white man I likely have a slightly different perspective than people of color, but the people of color that I’ve known and the ones I know today, like my neighbor I’m building a wooden cabinet for, or the one’s I’ve worked with or served in the USN with seemed to actually be pretty much not all that different than this human. One that’s been shot at walking back to base one day while in the USN. I wasn’t hit, was it a scare or a miss? I’ll never know because I believe I set a new world’s record for the fastest mile run. At least it felt like it. I don’t know who shot at me or why they did, all I know decades later is I wasn’t hanging around to find out. And yes I know that I was actually shot at, in boot camp I fired a very high score with each weapon. And in the USN I had to carry a loaded weapon on in port duty. I asked the officer who set me up on my first watch day what my order was and he said “Shoot to kill.” I wasn’t amused.
My point is that the personality we display here is only part of us, many of us have or have had very different lives than we sound like.
Ruckus
@cckids:
Realize that a lot of old white men did not vote for shitforbrains or ever have for any of his “friends” or people on that side of the fence. I’ve been voting for over 5 decades and have never voted rethuglican once. For any office. Hell it’s one of the reasons I hang around here – the rest of you. I don’t remember when I found this blog but it was very early on.
@Martin:
I use the pie filter very rarely and only for people that seem like they are trying to stir up shit. And don’t see it now. The most people I’ve had in it is I believe is 4. Now I only have two. There is one semi regular commenter that just bugs me and one I haven’t seen in some time and he seemed to bug everyone.
Ruckus
Darkrose
@The Thin Black Duke: Can we not speak for all commenters of color here? Criticising Jeffries is not a microagression as far as I’m concerned. Yes, his book is not a children’s book, and he’s on recess, but in this Black woman’s opinion he’s not rising to the occasion. Why isn’t he going not to bookstores, but to libraries, talking about how his book would be banned in DoD schools, and from school libraries, and public libraries? Why is he not addressing the protesters instead of weakly posting (in the Nazi bar) about a “higher power”? Right now, the non-MAGAts are looking for leadership in this fight, and we’re not getting it from senior Democratic leadership. I don’t agree with mistermix on many things, but he’s not wrong here.
BeenHereSince2003
@Steve LaBonne:
Good thing nobody did that.
Prof BrainRot has every right to feel his feelings. Other people have the right to dismiss his feelings without guilt.
We Democrats have spent too long under the delusion that we have to agree (or at least not openly disagree) with any non-white person over any allegation of racism they make or that we will be racist ourselves. We thought it was the “safe” play that would at least make sure we weren’t being accidentally racist, but WE WERE WRONG!
In reality, as I said before, this has caused us to side with kooks and cranks, like the Professor here. That has made US look like kooks and cranks. There is a reason we hemorrhaged support among the very groups we were trying to appeal to. Turns out that echoing the nuttiest voices in a group does not, in fact, endear you to the majority of that group.
Do you think it is convincing to call people and things racist without being able to explain why other than “some black guy told me it was and that’s all I need to know”? It makes us look like judgmental assholes who are also too stupid to even understand what we are talking about.
Did that work for us? It blew up in our faces. In fact, by our own logic of effects-over-intent, it was actually very racist.
TBone
@WTFGhost: I’m so glad I came back here today so I didn’t miss your commentary. You are my kind of weird. In case that isn’t clear enough, that is a compliment. Carry on and keep finding your purpose, no matter where it may lie each day!
TBone
@TBone: the word in the film is
I said “point.” The victory has been achieved by MM I am happy to see.
Kayla Rudbek
@WereBear: I’m cutting back as well, although I had to return to the office and I had lost 40 pounds since the beginning of the pandemic. Most of my blazers and dresses still fit, although a lot of my trousers and skirts don’t. So replace those at Lands End on sale, scour eBay and thredup for suits. eBay works better because the sellers keep the jacket and skirt together.
schrodingers_cat
@K-Mo: Starfish accused me of appropriating the Black experience, which I have never done. AFAIK Starfish is not black.