A peek behind the curtain.
So before we risk chasing another front-pager off, please indulge me and walk in our shoes for a minute.
You put a post together. Sometimes it’s a quick “looks like we could use an open thread” and sometimes you put heart and soul into your post.
Let’s say no one steps on your post. More often than not, the first comment out of the gate is a criticism about something. Or maybe it’s the fifth, but either way, it’s early in the game. Maybe it’s a throwaway line that gets the criticism, but that doesn’t matter, there’s a good chance that the whole comment section becomes about some tiny little thing that had almost nothing to do with your main point.
All those links you took the time and trouble to find? They don’t matter because half the people don’t read the post, not everyone has time to click the links, and chances are good that the discussion won’t end up being about your topic anyway. That’s okay, no one needs to read the post. Some people will learn something or have some fun in the comments, or something you wrote will spark a good discussion, and that’s good.
But way too often anymore it doesn’t matter what you’ve written because the comments turn into the same fucking arguments over and over and over. So if you’re anything like me, you think “what’s the point?”, and you post less often.
Worst case, a valued front-pager like mistermix says fuck it, life’s too short, and then an important voice is gone. Maybe we could stop doing that?
Commenting
As someone who reads Balloon Juice, what wears me down most is the bullshit passive aggressive comments we have started seeing more and more. You know what I mean, where someone is talking behind someone else’s back, right in front of their face. It’s not clever to be dissing someone else in the comment thread (or worse yet, dissing someone who is not even in that thread) without naming names. Sure the people who are tuned in know who you are talking about, but it’s like mean girls in junior high; it’s petty and it’s ugly. We used to be better than this.
I used to describe Balloon Juice as like being at a get together with really smart and interesting people. Every day. We can be that again.
Stress by definition is not pretty. Stress and anxiety coming out sideways can be downright ugly. Many of us are stressed beyond what our coping mechanisms can handle. Quibbling with our online friends and attacking our allies cannot be the solution. It just can’t. And no, I’m not talking about everyone. For everyone who is still their best selves, I salute you, and I want to be you.
The rest of us can do better.
Remember this?
‘The talk focuses on politics, pets and animal rescue, gardening, pop culture and more, but what it really does is serve as a meeting point for interesting, like-minded people to talk, argue, share, and cope. We pride ourselves on being a real community — we get to know each other, help one other and serve as a (mostly) friendly refuge in an often ugly world. Like all families, we sometimes fight.”
Who else wants to get back to that?
YY_Sima Qian
Hear hear! Thank you for writing this WG!
Tim C.
Agree with all this. I’m not a frequent commenter here as I usually don’t have much of any substance to add. However, I have watched with dismay as the arguments have taken root about who did what and who is at fault. Part of my own cope has been to remember that the only real good I can do is actually limited by what is in my circle of influence.
And that includes this place.
So be kind, assume good intent, we all now understand just how broken and stupid our country is, but we are all in the same lifeboat here. I don’t blame anyone for their pain or worry or anything. It’s really bad out there and almost certainly going to get worse for everyone. We need to be kind, we have to be kind.
John S.
It would be great to get back to what you are describing. I’m pretty sure if you took a poll, 90% of commenters would agree. But there are other issues which are going to make that hard which you aren’t addressing here.
@Tim C.:
Constantly assuming bad faith, even after commenters clarify or firmly state their perspective, is one of those major issues.
brendancalling
Thanks for writing this. I’m not one of the offenders—except perhaps when I indulge in some shameless self-promotion in an open thread—but I sure know the behavior.
I try my best to be my best self here, which—given how crotchety I can be—is surprisingly easy when I’m among the jackals. As my friend Emily Yates sings, “Try Not To Be A Dick.” A good motto to live by.
ArchTeryx
I do. There was one time where Balloon-Juice actually helped to keep me from shooting myself in the head during the near-death of Medicaid – not just the ACA, but Medicaid itself – in 2017. When Medicaid defunding passed, it was the only thing keeping me alive, and I watched the Republicans on the House floor – OUR House – throwing a kegger at the impending deaths of millions of people.
I was one of them. And I wasn’t about to let those people determine how I was going to die.
People here, among others, convinced me not to do it, and they were right: Medicaid, and the ACA, and health care in this country was saved by one vote in the Senate. We all know how the story ended.
And now we are here again. I have an enormous amount of skin in the game, but not life and death, not right away – my job depends on Medicaid. But if I lost that job, and Medicaid was gone, it’s 2017 all over again.
I look to Balloon Juice as a source of comfort, a community that accepts an old greymuzzled furry like me without the usual spate of cracks about furry fandom. If I wanted continuous doomerism and front pagers and commenters at each other’s throats, I’d go back to LGM.
I want the old Balloon Juice back. I know people are terrified. Terrified people are assholes, even if they are normally very nice people. I’ve already lost friends over the horror of this election – liberal friends, LBGTQ+ friends. I don’t want to lose this place, too. It’s the last island of sanity I have left.
JML
I have an upcoming medical appointment, and I feel like I lied on my check-in questionnaire relating to the mental health questions. I don’t think I’m in a great place right now, but down-played it on the Q&A because I don’t want them to overreact and cancel my (minor) surgery. Anyone else do that sort of thing? or do it more these days?
Tim C.
@John S.: Agree. And it’s hard for some to see. I literally think all the front pagers are wrong from time to time. Not all the time, not intentionally, but sometimes. But… I don’t need to poop all over them when I disagree. Likewise, there’s far more value in asking clarifying questions than in just going to white hot instant rage.
Save the rage for the Nazis
brendancalling
@brendancalling: I will add that the treatment of mistermix and other front-pagers ticks me off. His post on Reagan today was great, and I wanted to add a link The Dollop, a podcast which did a fantastic two-episodes on the Gipper (with guest Patton Oswalt). It was hilarious and insightful—history with jokes.
But because people were acting out, comments on MM posts are closed. So I can’t post a link there. It’s a fantastic two episodes. You’ll have to find them yourselves though.
@heymistermix.com
All the emails, comments and DMs I’ve gotten since leaving have made me aware of something that shouldn’t have been surprising: this site has a ton of lurkers who don’t read comments, and a bunch of others who say they stay out of the comments for various reasons (sometimes because they’re considered toxic).
brendancalling
My reply to myself got eated, so I will repeat myself. The treatment of mistermix and other front-pagers ticked me off. MM’s post on Reagan this morning was great, and I have a fantastic two-part episode about the Gipper from The Dollop, a podcast on history with jokes. They had Patton Oswalt on as a guest, and the two episodes are as hilarious as they are insightful.
But I can’t post this relevant comment on MM’s link, because comments are closed, because some of the jackaltariat got nasty (I missed the whole shitshow, as usual). You’ll have to find it yourselves, or wait til another Reagan post comes up.
FDRLincoln
Putin, Trump, Musk, and all the other monsters want us fighting with each other.
Stay on Target. . .stay on Target.
Keep the ire directed where it should be: the Orange Anus, Apartheid Boy, and their puppet master in Moscow.
FastEdD
It is a lot easier to tear something down than it is to build it in the first place. My Dad taught me that and he was a good and wise man. He said humans seem to think there is a “pulley system.” When you put someone else down you pull yourself up. He was an engineer and told me over and over again there is no pulley system with people, it just does not work that way.
kindness
No doubt the Front Pagers feel the sting. To my eyes it seems that the commentartiate here argues with each other more than the Front Pager’s post. We here share the ‘herding cats’ mojo. How to deal with this? I attach grains (sometimes boulders) of salt to what given individuals say. I also have learned that ignoring some folk is much better for my psychie than dwelling on their weird shit.
Betty Cracker
@JML: YES! I lie about that shit all the time. My justification is there’s nothing they can do to help me, so there’s no point in opening up that can o’ worms. “Everything’s fine!!!!”
(Tracy Bonham on YouTube)
Cheryl from Maryland
I don’t comment often, but I read the posts everyday. And the work the front pagers did last year to be focused and targeted, and thus helpful, as well as the non political threads, were incredibly important to me. I don’t want it to end. As my late spouse (he worked for the FDA, so you can imagine how I feel now) said during the last decade of his life, assume good intentions, assume things that rub you the wrong way are often just phrasing, assume people are stressed and lash out of pain and fear. We can respect each other.
Llelldorin
@ArchTeryx: That last paragraph is key. We’re all terrified. We have to hang together, or it’ll get one step worse — we’ll be terrified and alone.
The Democratic Party will never be what we all wish it were. It’s not nothing — it’s the last shred of institutional power that opposes Trump in any way — but it’s a minority party in a legislature whose leaders are happy to abandon its Constitutional role in our governance. If we’re lucky they’ll help, but they’re not going to lead us out of this all by themselves.
All that leaves is… us. The panicking, 37-sides-to-every-yes-or-no-question mess that is us. Let’s at least keep this ember going, eh?
frosty
I’ve deleted more than one comment before posting. Rereading it first is good practice for all of us.
Also catches typos and auto-incorrects.
PS Reread this and I’m not deleting it!
NutmegAgain
Thank you for this. I post only a little, but read plenty here. I would be so very sad to see the place descend into a free-for-all, right at the time when many of us need a sane nest to think & discuss.
Ohio Mom
@brendancalling: Reminds me of the Sponge Bob tune, “Don’t be a Jerk, it’s Christmas.” The two songs complement each other. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cmtDqrnOPeA
As for the increasing level of sniping around here, I too am tired of it. I’ve already realized that I what I think doesn’t matter. If for example, I think Jeffries made a mistake or a good move going on a book tour, changes nothing. I don’t get being so attached to a throwaway comment. I have enough drama in my personal life (you don’t know the half of it) that I don’t need to go looking for more.
Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony
There is a power struggle and a need for people to feel like they have control. There are also hurt feelings dating back to the civil wars in the party and I believe absolutely stoked by influencers outside of this space (and sometimes within this space). I believe there are separate visions for the country. I also believe that social media has led some people to develop this “take no prisoners”, “my way or the highway” mixed with hypersensitivity attitude about discussion and debate. Its crap. I’m sick of it. I’ve been coming here less because it is a giant circle jerk of emoting over the same stuff since July.
I am a moderate. The real thing, not the constantly bashed ‘centrist’. I think a lot of progressive ‘solutions’ are unrealistic. However, I’m happy to debate this point civilly and work with progressives on more realistic solutions. We aren’t all going to agree. We have to compromise. We have to plan. We have to work. If you are not ready to do that, fine. I’ll just ignore you until you are.
Ohio Mom
@ArchTeryx: I remember that (justified) panic. Then your life got a little better anchored and I had a big sigh of relief for you.
SamInWa
@@heymistermix.com: I have been lurking on this site for more than 10 probably 15 years now and rarely post, except on pet related topics and even then not much.
I read this Blog every single day, multiple times a day. I read it eating my breakfast most days. It’s a launching off point for items of interest to check out today.
I appreciate the perspective of all the front pagers. I appreciate the time they put into this place.
Please know that I appreciate you all.
I will be re-lurking again now and return to my usual not reading/posting in the comments.
JML
@Betty Cracker: ha, well it’s nice to know it’s not just me. I’d probably feel better about being truthful if it was the post-op follow-up, rather than the pre-op check-in. Since I finally got around to doing something about my physical health, I’d hate for my only slightly wobbly mental health to get in the way. I’m kinda fine, right?
besides, I’m gonna get yelled about about my weight, diet, and cholesterol anyways…
Nukular Biskits
What Watergirl said.
And, instead of a pie filter, can we implement a feature that will cause a real pie to launch from the offender’s screen directly into their face?
;>)
Baud
@Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony:
Seems about right.
Alce _e_ardillo
@JML: Don’t worry too much about that. They don’t want to cancel surgery either, so as long as you don’t come into the surgical suite with a noose over your neck , you’ll be fine.
TaMara
This is all good, and pretty much explains why I walked away as a front pager months ago – I guess I didn’t yell at everyone before I left, so it was more quiet quitting and more for my own mental health than any real ire, so I didn’t write a fuck all of you post…I digress
What has really happened and seems to have gone unnoticed is how many wonderful commenters we’ve lost. They just said fuck it, this is no fun anymore and went elsewhere. I miss them, and it weighed in on my decision to take a “break” from here.
I don’t know how you bring them back, but from the emails and messages I’ve received, they felt pushed out by all the anger and bullying. And yes, there has been much bullying.
That’s my two cents…I’m sure you guys will work it out.
Salty Sam
I have never been a prolific commenter, but I completely stopped posting comments not long after the election. It was very much a case of “Don’t wrestle with a pig- you won’t win, you’ll get covered in mud, and the pig likes it!”. For quite awhile I have been following comments, but as they have continued to deteriorate, I have been completely avoiding them at times.
I would love for this to turn around- participating in comments used to be fun, but I only have so much bandwidth, and the real-life situation with politics has overwhelmed my capacity to ignore bullshit.
I don’t blame mistermix for stepping away, but I’d sure welcome him back. He has been a valued voice here.
eclare
@frosty:
Agreed! I have typed more than one comment, reread it, thought to myself “does this add anything?” and then deleted it.
Chief Oshkosh
@JML: I have a similar attitude to Betty, though I don’t know if it’s healthy overall.
Baud
@Betty Cracker:
Me four.
Dougboy
@Tim C.: You’ve said what I want to convey better than I could, including the similar infrequency of our posting. I get great knowledge and comfort from not only the FPers, but the commentariat in general.
lowtechcyclist
I’m not happy that mistermix felt like he was driven off, but I was busy with other things and spending a lot less time in the comment threads than usual over the past few weeks, so I have no idea of what went on. I certainly don’t care enough to look for it, but if we’re going to go into soul-searching mode about it, maybe I ought to understand more than I do? Or maybe not. I don’t know.
My one complaint was that it seemed like in the daytime, this place was all mistermix, all the time. Just a bit too much of one person’s thought stream by the time I got to his third post of the day. But that didn’t mean I wanted to see him gone. And I will say front-paging his stuff, but not allowing comments here, is the worst of both worlds. Maybe I’d feel differently if I’d read the sorts of comments that drove him off. I don’t know.
Bionic Space Jellyfish
I’m a long time lurker. Not just here but basically every online space I go to I lurk. Part of it is introversion, but a big part is also the fact that it just feels like the internet encourages hostility and it’s gotten much, much worse with algorithmic social media. When certain tech bros realized they could make all of the money by pushing outrage and anger above all else, that was pretty much it for the internet.
I don’t know how to fix it, and it stresses me out too much to engage. But I do lament the loss of front page commentators here, even if its something I don’t entirely agree with it’s good to see the conversation, but sadly it’s like we’re primed for anger and outrage.
La Nonna
As a mostly lurker offshore readers, we appreciate all the diverse views and responses from the pack. Happy to check in every morning, to catch up on the news, to find action items we can do from here, to forward interesting posts to our US family members who are feeling like hostages in a bad movie. Comment so infrequently due to time change, and because we are not boots on the ground, don’t want to presume any expertise we don’t actually have.
John S.
@TaMara:
You know, it’s fascinating how different the overall tone in this thread is so far compared to the AL morning thread. Might actually have something to do with the mix of commenters. Certain front pagers seem to attract a particular group of commenters — which can be either good or bad.
Nukular Biskits
@JML:
I don’t lie … I just make shit up.
Like when they ask for the reason I’m seeing the doctor today, I’ll put something stupid like “Need a frontal lobotomy” or “Sex?” I’ll answer something like “Not often enough” or something similarly smart-ass.
@heymistermix.com
@ArchTeryx:
One of the things that led to me leaving was that the commenters here have a very low tolerance for any negativity in posts, especially about the Democratic Party. And the pushback I received wasn’t based on facts, generally, it was more “I don’t want to hear that”. Well, if you don’t want to hear it, read something else. There are others who do want to hear it. Let them comment. Instead, there were commenters who would fire off a half-dozen short comments just to show everyone else that their opinion was the “correct” one and everyone should know it. These are some of the symptoms of what I consider a toxic commenting environment, and I am done spending energy pushing back on it.
The notion that this is a “doomer” blog isn’t right, in my opinion. WG in particular, but Betty, Rose, Tom L, and even John are often posting pictures, anecdotes and other good writing and photos that are what I would call positive or uplifting or whatever other word you want to use. (I single out WG because she’s solely in charge of the “On the Road” section which is a lot of work and a total respite.) And the fundraising here is off the charts. That’s positive, too.
Anne Laurie is a stalwart and generally positive. Adam and I are the only two writers who are consistently “negative” (if you want to use that frame), but look at what we write about: the Ukraine war and current politics. Those are not beds of roses, and as Adam expressed the other night, he has a very clear view of how Biden failed. Of course, I think that in general the Democratic Party is not meeting the moment, as do 49% of those surveyed in the latest Q poll. I’m not some fringe outlier.
The “old” Balloon Juice was far, far more politically focused and, because it began as a blog talking about the Iraq War, far more negative. And, yes, Democrats were criticized. Shit, they were taken to the woodshed, by DougJ, John, Tim F and others besides me. And, I’m sorry to report that the old comments section was better because there was a broad mix of opinions. Many of those commenters have left. New ones don’t want to comment because any unorthodox opinions are not tolerated, and these people aren’t welcomed.
So I disagree with your framing, I think the facts bear out that this blog has changed from what it was to be overall far more of a “positive content” place. Yet the commenters believe otherwise and work very, very hard to make sure that front pagers who post content they consider “negative” hear it over and over again.
Also, this isn’t to single you out, ArchTeryx – I think your opinion is shared by some others here, you just articulated it well.
YY_Sima Qian
@John S.: Yes, interactions among members of this community, commenters & FPers alike, ought to be governed by empathy, patience, humility & self awareness.
When facing disagreement, try education, explanation & persuasion. Brow beating is never well received & never effective or productive. Look for common ground (which should not be difficult in this community).
Let BJ be the safe refuge for these turbulent & frightening times, & not another venue to heighten our angers & anxieties.
Ohio Mom
@JML: I think at this point, most doctors are as freaked out as we are. As patients, we don’t see the huge infrastructure they depend on — all those federal agencies doing things like making sure medical devices work properly and collecting infectious disease stats and all the rest. They don’t want to stick a pacemaker in you not knowing if it’s safe, they want to know a regulator regulated it.
Doctors are devastated to see research being abandoned, scared for their patients who are most likely going to lose their health coverage.
If you make a small comment about current events being a worry, they will most likely nod and say, Me too.
munira
Amen, Watergirl. I don’t comment a lot either but I do at least start out reading the comments, but when I see it all descending into a big fight, I take off. Not interested in people dumping on each other.
StringOnAStick
I stopped reading the comments last month for this very reason, and I doubt I will return to that or to commenting on my own anymore after this comment; life is indeed too short and now I have more time and less doom in my life as we wade through this mess. I will continue to read the posts as I have always done, but that’s it.
John S.
@lowtechcyclist:
I am usually an infrequent poster (not the last few weeks though), so it can be really easy to lose track of things around here. But there’s too many comments lately that are about other commenters, and not about the topic of the post. And that’s a huge part of the problem.
By the way, you were looking for an example of people being called racist in the morning thread. I provided you with some links.
J. Arthur Crank
@@heymistermix.com: I just wanted to say that over the years you have given me an impressive range of earworms from your post titles. Some of them are nice, and some are not, but you have to take the good with the bad.
Butch
@StringOnAStick: Same here, only I quit long before that. I entered this thread only to see how people are reacting; I’m leaving again now.
John S.
@YY_Sima Qian:
I agree with you. And by the way, I always enjoy your comments. I’m more a fan of “long form” writing, because I really enjoy reading. Especially stuff that’s worth reading!
H.E.Wolf
I’ve been doing my volunteer task of database clean-up. Currently it’s to find, document, and archive the database records of people who have died. I can do a maximum of 20 names a day, in between other daily responsibilities.
Reading 20 obituaries a day puts a lot of other things into perspective. It also makes me think about how I want to be remembered. (There’s room for improvement.)
suzanne
I want to get back to that.
I am here to exchange ideas with smart people and learn, commiserate and laugh a bit, let off steam with the pets and the recipes and the gardens and the travel.
WaterGirl
@brendancalling: Or send me the links and I’ll put up a post based on what you send me. :-)
Ceci n est pas mon nym
I have had a pretty light presence here for the last several months, but not in reaction to anybody in particular. Just general anxiety and fear that caused me and still causes me to not want to think about the state of the nation too long or read any stories about the atrocity of the day.
So if there’s been drama it’s mostly passed me by.
But my tolerance for thinking about politics is gradually getting back to normal. And yes, I’d like this to be the safe, intelligent, humorous place I remember.
zhena gogolia
@JML: I made the mistake of telling the truth on the first visit after the election, so my entire meager visit with my PCP was wasted on complaining about Fuckhead. Now I just lie.
Joshua Todd James
@Watergirl
Love this post. Spot on. Longtime reader of Balloon Juice (going back to GWB) and aspired to be a front pager at some point, early on. I read BJ every day, multiple times a day. But what I stopped doing some years ago was commenting on posts, and, in fact, the past few years, I don’t even read the comments.
Somehow it all got so very inside and combative, and i don’t know that I have anything to offer that.
But I love what is offered on the front page, and I’ll miss @heymistermix very much. So much smart insight and views here. I really hope we get by this ugly bump in the road and go back to being a community again.
It’s amazing how the tangerine scream can divide us by his very presence, isn’t it?
John S.
@@heymistermix.com:
Interesting that the majority of them are nowhere to be found on this thread. Or really any thread lately where we discuss trying to make BJ a better place.
WaterGirl
@frosty:
My first laugh of the morning.
Llelldorin
@@heymistermix.com: Hey — I just wanted to add my voice to anyone else’s saying that you’ll be missed if you go. I didn’t always agree with you (mostly because I’ve been disappointed by the Democratic Party often enough that I tend to be amazed and gratified when they even try to lean in a sensible direction), but your voice is valuable, and will be missed if you go.
Betty Cracker
@TaMara: That really sucks, but it’s perfectly understandable. I hate it that we’ve lost so many good commenters too.
New Deal democrat
I just want to add my voice in support of WaterGirl’s points.
Some of you may know that Hale Stewart (a/k/a Bonddad) and I used to write over at Daily Kos way back in the Great Recession era. Both of us started forecasting that the economy would probably bottom out in summer 2009 and then begin to improve.
Some people disagreed, which is fine. But there is very little more discouraging than to put a couple of hours’ work into a detailed, fact-driven post about some issue, only to have half of the first 20 comments boil down to “YOU SUCK!!!”
Adter a while, both of us decided, “F this place” and left. There hasn’t been any significant economic progressive discussion over there in probably a decade or more.
Almost all blogs have long since turned off comments for the same reason.
Just consider how you would feel in those circumstances, where your hard work was met with insults.
Here’s a decent rule of thumb: if you’ve made the same point 3 times and the writer doesn’t agree, the 4th or 40th or 400th time isn’t going to make a difference either. People who largely agree on most things are going to vociferously disagree on a few others. And unless it is crystal clear that the disagreement is in bad faith, the remedy is to scroll right on past.
Or blow up the community and wonder why it has become a hollowed out echo chamber. Or doesn’t allow comments any more.
ArchTeryx
@Ohio Mom: You were the one leading the “help convince Arch to hang around” party. And I have not forgotten it.
@heymistermix.com
@lowtechcyclist:
This observation doesn’t bother me at all. I agree that it was all me, all the time. I felt that sometimes I posted something just to have content on the blog. That’s not a good feeling, and it doesn’t lead to the best writing.
When DougJ and I were posting during the day back in the “old days”, we would often have 3-4 posts each per day, but others were posting too. And posts were shorter. But now, with the lack of active front pagers, this place can go hours without any content.
I’m not going to FP that many of my posts, but, again, trying to keep a little content in the blog. I didn’t know WG had a post cooking (it is often hard to tell FYI and FWIW), but it was 4 hours since something showed up on the FP when I posted this morning.
Multi-person blogs, in my opinion, need a good couple dozen posts a day. YMMV.
HopefullyNotcassandra
Thank you, Watergirl, for all of the excellent things you do here.
Every bit of energy we direct in anger at each other cannot be directed at those who are trying to rip this country to shreds.
These nihilists are trying to destroy everything that makes our country wonderful. These false note trumpists would strip mine the Rockies, build condos in the Grand Canyon and nonchalantly poison every waterway. They think freedom is outdated, unless it is their freedom to inflict pain on innocents. They would fill our country with starvation, misery and early unnatural death.
We don’t need pounds of flesh. We don’t even need to agree about how to oppose this North Korea-ization of the United States of America. Every act in opposition helps. Every act in opposition helps.
We need to stand united in the face of the onslaught on our rights and general welfare. Aim your anger and energy at those responsible for this mess. IMHO
Doug R
@@heymistermix.com: I keep trying to engage, but:
1) It seems a lot of folks are just busy socializing so
2) No one wants to engage with the occasional commenter and
3) The non-threaded comments means you need to search IF someone responded.
4) Searching a thread for “doug” seems very narcissistic and 3 of the “hits” are my name in the Nym box and 2 DougJ threads.
5) I know disqust has its problems, but it does let you respond directly to someone and notifies you if someone responds and lets you know if someone liked what you said.
I know we’ve talked about this before, but we’re losing people at the worst time for this, something’s not working.
Afterthought. Instead of chasing front pagers away, how about a timeout for nasty comments after a warning? Like a day or so?
YY_Sima Qian
@John S.: BTW, I was commenting on what should govern our collective behavior as members of this community, & not aiming at you specifically on anything.
I suggest that we all follow WG’s advise, & rise above cliquish behavior. We don’t want to follow the footsteps of the Spanish Republicans (& their varied allies) fighting Franco (& failing in the end due to internecine divisions).
ArchTeryx
@@heymistermix.com: I didn’t necessarily think this blog had gone full doomer, except in the one moment after Kash Patel was confirmed as head of the FBI. And our blogfather actually reversed himself right away. People like Anne Laurie and WaterGirl are absolute mensches, trying to keep the ship from sinking when the whole country is being attacked from all sides.
I certainly didn’t agree with all your conclusions, but that didn’t mean the answer was “you suck.” Argue facts, not just all-out attack. ABA (Always Be Attacking) may work on Xhitter and with Republicans but it never was us.
Everyone’s on edge. I keep saying it as a mantra. Know who your enemies – and allies – are. Don’t attack your allies, no matter how distasteful you may find them. If we could align with Stalin, a monster every bit as murderous as Hitler, to defeat the Nazis, us liberals can align with some questionable people to beat back the barbarians storming the gate. Worry about their allegances later. We need everyone firing at the enemy, even when it seems futile. Not at our own side.
lowtechcyclist
@John S.:
Your Google query provided a bunch of links, but the first several I tried took me directly to the front-pager’s post, and not to any comment in the thread.
prospero
I thought about commenting here but man, there are a LOT of angry, sad, and confused people here in the comments. The comments are about as depressing as it gets. The more depressive, the less thoughtful most of the time. I don’t kknow how the FPers can handle that, honestly. Godspeed to them….
hueyplong
Like some others, I comment less now because I don’t have much nice to say*, but I lurk daily, because I still want to learn the happy fact of Trump’s figurative (or better still, literal) passing here, as opposed to from some other source.
*There are people I’m pissed at, but they don’t appear here and they’re not the Democratic Party. They’re the GOPers and others who voted for Trump. Will welcome any of them who vote the right way in the future, but here’s hoping that their path to the right place is even more unpleasant that what has been happening and will continue to happen to at-risk people who didn’t have this nightmare coming.
Nukular Biskits
@@heymistermix.com @lowtechcyclist:
I understand @lowtechcyclist‘s point here but that was something that never bothered me as a reader and an infrequent commenter.
This is a VOLUNTEER effort on the part of the front-pagers to provide content they think relevant, interesting, off-the-wall or just happened to tickle their fancy at the moment. And I’m sure all of them (with the exception of Cole himself, perhaps, … LOL) have lives outside this blog, meaning they post whenever their personal schedules allows. MM’s sked apparently allowed him to share his thoughts several times during the day. Again, I personally don’t see the issue with that as having fresh material (whether “good” or “bad”, depending on your perspective) keeps things from going stale. And, probably just as much as toxic comments will drive folks away, infrequent infusions of material here by front-pagers will do the same … if there was only one post during daylight hours during the week, I’m sure traffic would drop off precipitously.
As far as this:
if that was the price for bringing MM back, I’m okay with it. People who feel the need to comment on those posts can always go to MM’s site or seek him out on Bluesky, IMHO.
WhatsMyNym
Tesla (TSLA) just broke 300 on it’s way down. It’s a great start for the day!
Betty Cracker
@@heymistermix.com: FWIW, I was relieved when you stepped up the pace. I haven’t always been up to it lately for various reasons, and I know that left a gap since I’m sort of a day shift or wee hours poster.
@WhatsMyNym: Woohoooo!
cope
@JML: I’m with you and Betty, I always check “no” for questions about depression or emotional state despite my actual feelings and thoughts. I find that I am pretty capable of self-care on this issue and besides, I don’t want my doc/PA to have to spend an extra hour typing in data to Epic on my account.
Nukular Biskits
@Doug R:
I still like my idea about launching a real pie from the monitor into the miscreant’s face. ;>)
Baud
@WhatsMyNym:
Thanks for the good news.
John S.
@YY_Sima Qian:
I didn’t take it personally. I’m trying to do a much better job of that after getting sucked into one too many ridiculous fights here lately (thanks for the advice, Quinerly). But you kind of have a solid track record of being polite and amiable, so I wouldn’t have thought that of you anyway.
Alce _e_ardillo
@@heymistermix.com: The mix of commentary and FP posting has changed over the years, but has remained consistently high quality throughout. There were some I really didn’t agree with (I’m looking at you Freddie de Boer) and some I wanted to stay longer (Dougj) but I always come back for more.
@heymistermix.com
@Doug R:
I think you’ve identified some legit issues here. A couple of thoughts.
(1) Is a good point. I asked commenters to stay on topic on some of my posts recently, but it’s not fair when life intrudes (on me) that I leave a post up for 3 hours and expect people to be on-topic. Some scheduled “socializing” threads could be helpful, but scheduling is currently broken. When that’s fixed, it might be helpful.
(2) Important point. Those of use who’ve been around a long time get “meh” about engaging. Didn’t Kos or some other site have people whose assignment was to nurture commenters?
(3) John doesn’t like threaded comments. I can see it both ways, but what I try to do is quote the comment I’m responding to (or at least the portion). We could make that a “suggested best practice”. It’s a little tedious to do the cut/paste, etc.
(4) Don’t feel bad about that.
(5) One of the strengths of B-J is that we are totally self-hosted. Third-party vendors offering comments, etc., often get bought out and enshittified and then we’d lose years of comment history. So there’s a reason we don’t use Disqus.
gene108
I think most regular commenters on this blog are still trying to process how and why Trump won and it’s been compounded by Musk’s out in the open coup.
People want to find any reason why and how we got here, which often turns to finger pointing and blaming others out of frustration.
I hope at some point the raw emotions of the moment will subside.
ArchTeryx
@Nukular Biskits: Honestly, it’d be a great tension breaker if we could just get enough of the commentariat here into a room together, give them an unlimited supply of cream pies, and tell them to have a REAL pie fight.
John S.
@lowtechcyclist:
The second link takes you directly to a post with a pretty clear example.
Here it is again.
You kind of have to go digging around in a thread for a bit after using the query. I only did that with the first result.
brendancalling
@WaterGirl: I’ll consider it. I read your post as kind of a reprimand for/reminder about behaving appropriately. As a teacher, I don’t like to reward bad behavior.
So MAYBE. Let’s see if class can get its act together, LOL.
Alce _e_ardillo
And while the fighting is distressing, it has never approached the theological mudslinging of some of the other sites (cough..DK..cough)
ArchTeryx
@gene108: But after a while, the “whys” of how we got here become irrelevant. We need to learn from the past, but any close election (and the last election was damn close, just like the last two were) is grossly overdetermined. After a little while, there’s nothing to learn from re-litigating the past repeatedly. We need to figure out how to fight for the future. I don’t want to be first against the wall when Team DOGEshit comes calling. Nobody else here does, either.
Nukular Biskits
@ArchTeryx:
“Gentlemen. You can’t fight in here. This is the War Room!”
Dr. Strangelove or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb
comrade scotts agenda of rage
@@heymistermix.com:
A thousand times this. New people comment…and it’s crickets chirping in response. That’s always been something of an occupation hazard here going back to the early days but over the last 7 years or so, it’s really amped up.
It was refreshing at the Denver meetup to hear lurkers talk about the commentariat and realize that not everybody thinks it’s a good thing to engage “topic trolls” directly and provide them the attention they crave. If such comments were one offs, like they would have been 10+ years ago, then the kind of response style that’s driving WG crazy wasn’t needed, you simply ignored it and moved on.
Which, inadvertently, provided and avenue to repeat the policy agenda again and again in order to move some kind of Democratic Policy Overton Window in a certain direction and well, here we are.
Jackie
Good post, WaterGirl. Thank you. I haven’t read any responses, yet, so fingers crossed…
JML
@Alce _e_ardillo: I think I can pass that hurdle. don’t know how to tie a noose correctly anyways.
@cope: good for you on the self-care. I think I’m falling down on that one this year. probably a big reason why things feel more wobbly.
comrade scotts agenda of rage
@Alce _e_ardillo:
Exactly.
I’ve been a Rescue Ranger at DK for almost 20 years now (we curate the ‘Community Spotlight’ section). And in general, the comments have been a quagmire for at least the last 10 years. We as a group read every diary, every day so have a better feel than anybody there what’s changed in terms of style and tone.
LGM’s no different and worse in a way because at least at DK, the FPers are typically very good so their material is worth a read whereas at LGM…
Nukular Biskits
@comrade scotts agenda of rage:
I was a regular commenter at DK during the early years and came across BJ when blogrolls were still a thing.
I haven’t participated in DK comments (or posted a diary there) in years, partly because of the fighting in the comments.
@heymistermix.com
Thanks for all the positive responses to what I said here, I have to go to work. But I wanted to leave one more thought as WG, John and the constructive critics in this thread work on improving the site:
If it were up to me, I’d turn off the pie filter for a while. I understand the original intent, but I think it’s become a way for people who make very obnoxious comments to mute everyone who disagrees with them (and brag about it — “all I see is pie”). A healthy community self-polices. Part of that is pushback when people are being obnoxious, calling them out.
Jackie
@TaMara: I miss your duck posts, your puppy posts, and your delicious recipes.
Matt McIrvin
@cope: I’m concerned at the moment that it may actually be dangerous to admit to having any kind of mental health issues. They’re trying to bring the stigma of any kind of disability back and it’s something that could be used against you.
Especially considering RFK Jr.’s proposal to replace all existing mental health treatment with “wellness farms” where people would be locked away in an allegedly bucolic setting without access to electronic media. Those sound like another kind of concentration camps to me.
YY_Sima Qian
@John S.: Ha, thanks. I am actually more polite & equanimious in anonymity online than I am in person.
My default mode is to be analytical, & my outward appearance of equanimity at times of stress absolutely drives my wife nuts. OTOH, I can also fail to be empathetic w/ or even be aware of other people’s emotions that need to be assuaged, when I am in an analytical zone.
Matt McIrvin
@@heymistermix.com: If the pie filter goes away, I’m gone.
BeautifulPlumage
I wonder how many of the negative nellies/outright assholes contribute monetarily to this site?
I haven’t been commenting as mush as I process *all this* going on in the world, but I do read most of the posts and also hate that so many front pagers have decided to leave. I am soooo grateful to those past and present writers who volunteer their time and talents to create posts and help inform us. I VALUE knowing what’s happening in Ukraine, I VALUE the photography, I VALUE the many perspectives and links, I VALUE the joking and snark and the feeling like we’re in this together. I’m amazed at the talents and knowledge of lurkers who occasionally pop-up with their expert views.
I am very TIRED of the pissy little babies who come into the comments to attack others….
Jackie
@John S.:
Yes.
Starfish (she/her)
@Betty Cracker: With the oncologists, some of them will give you anti-depressants to help cope with cancer.
With everyone else, I would probably lie my ass off so I don’t get “its all in your head” as a diagnosis.
Ohio Mom
@@heymistermix.com: I think sometimes the comments feel like a clique, and that puts people off. That’s how I felt in the beginning, anyway.
Citizen Dave
I found this place in December 2016 and it has been my oasis of sanity since then. It’s the best place on the internet. I really appreciate and respect all the front pagers. I’ve never pied anyone. I try to move through the posts and comments pretty quickly. I like to amplify or “me too” comments that coincide with my thoughts, and sometimes post facts, but mostly lurk and enjoy the community. Still. Great source of information and various recommendations. Thanks all!
ArchTeryx
@Nukular Biskits: I would have paid really good money to see a custard pie fight break out right in the middle of Dr. Strangelove. It was surreal enough as it is, that wouldn’t have made it any less so. But Stanley Kubrick took himself way too seriously, and probably thought he was far too haute artiste for something so pedestrian.
Starfish (she/her)
@Nukular Biskits: I would like to politely disagree with your suggestion because it would waste good pie on commenters who do not deserve good pie.
John S.
@YY_Sima Qian:
Ha! Then you and I in real life are very similar people. But I am the opposite of you in one major way: I am actually more polite & congenial in person than I am online.
Quiltingfool
@suzanne: I want to thank you for your explanations about architecture, building conversions, etc. I learned so much from you!
For example, I once thought that the answer to housing shortage was simply to convert office space to apartments! Well, I see the flaws in that because of your expertise in the architecture field and your willingness to share with us. All I know about is teaching 8th graders science and making quilts, lol!
Also, I am envious that you live in a Craftsman style home. If I had gobs of money, I would build one, and have all the exquisite wide baseboards, arches, bookcases, but with modern *underpinings*.
Nukular Biskits
@Starfish (she/her):
I didn’t say it had to be good pie …
ArchTeryx
@Ohio Mom: It’s how I often feel, too. But I refuse to shut up. It’s a palsy among us NDs.
LeftCoastYankee
Seeing comments that are basically “I’m letting you know I’m not reading this post!” would be crazy-making for any poster.
Nukular Biskits
@ArchTeryx:
If you look close, you can see the table set with pies in the next room, even though the pie-fight scene was not in the final cut of the movie.
John S.
@Ohio Mom:
There are cliques. Can’t really be helped with a community this size. Water seeks it’s own level and all that.
By the way, I’m going to shoot you an email later today. Hopefully it won’t end up in your spam folder. 😉
suzanne
@@heymistermix.com:
I am loath to do this. I don’t have the time and I really don’t have the energy. I engage with the commenters who I think are OK — which is most — and I don’t engage with commenters who I think are toxic.
Jackie
@comrade scotts agenda of rage:
THIS. Someone new posts, and if they disagree with a statement, they’re called a troll and then the pile on starts. I see this over and over again. This certainly doesn’t encourage new posters – or longtime lurkers to become part of this community.
WaterGirl
@brendancalling: Oh gosh, I didn’t intend for this to be any kind of reprimand.
Okay, well, not in the first part anyway. I was more going for the peek behind the curtain.
But yeah, I think the passive aggressive mean girl person attack shit should stop.
lowtechcyclist
@John S.:
Your link takes me directly there. The links from your query didn’t.
OK, there’s one instance of this then. I never was able to track down the comment he was referring to, that he pied the commenter of. So was his comment justified? I don’t know.
Never mind. I’m tired, and this one ain’t worth the hassle.
mvr
@@heymistermix.com: Yes the number of lurkers for whom this blog is a good place became quite clear in recent threads. I was one for many years. Also the use of BJ to keep oneself halfway sane in hard political times (2004-2008 & 2017-2020 come to mind).
Ohio Mom
@John S.: I’ll look for it. Which you should take as a compliment because I don’t look at my email much these days.
Starfish (she/her)
@@heymistermix.com:
This behavior in Balloon Juice commenters started up during the pandemic. There were certain no-negativity zones, like Tamara’s posts, and I didn’t feel comfortable in them.
There was someone who said something about women’s ice skating being elegant, and women’s ice skating is a child abuse factory the way that 1990s-2000s women’s gymastics was. (Gymnastics cleaned it up by not allowing people in the women’s category under the age of 16.) But there was some context in the life of the person of the person who said it was elegant that I missed completely, and people were really upset with me about it.
There was also this background stress going on with Tamara having a parent who was dying and with me having a sibling who was sick in a way where death was a strong possibility.
Gvg
@@heymistermix.com: no. Only the person using the filter sees the pie. Different people have different stressors and needs. Leave people alone to manage their own lives. This is a flat disagreement with you. I think some more people would leave. Possibly me. Not right away, when the next batch of trolls arrive in numbers. The pie filter and silence seems to make them go away wheras before they built up in number and frequency.
it may have also trained some others to moderate their style, not sure of that, but I have removed some people after awhile.
SC54HI
@WaterGirl: Thank you. I appreciate your work and the work of all the front pagers here, past and present. I am sorry that @heymistermix.com and Adam have most recently borne the brunt of asshole commenters. I have read pretty much all of Adam’s Ukraine posts which are, IMO, vitally important. I also read all of MisterMix’s posts. There were never too many of them, as far as I was concerned. While assholes are gonna asshole, they don’t have a right to ruin it for the rest of us or abuse the front pagers.
I have read & mostly lurked here for 10-15 years, can’t remember how long. Because of time differences, I usually forego commenting since by the time I read a post & its comments, hours have passed and everyone has already said most or all of what I’d say anyway. This is probably a good thing.
Anyway, I sure hope that we can get back to what we have had for so many years.
PBK
@Jackie: What is even worse is the oh-so-clever retort of “nym I don’t recognize”, reinforcing the idea that this is a club and only certain people are allowed in it.
Virginia Thibeaux
I do! Recently started reading here and I generally enjoy the vibe. I’m not interested getting into any drama here with anyone. I appreciate sanity.
rikyrah
@ArchTeryx:
Don’t want to lose you either.
Just hang around
pajaro
@@heymistermix.com:
I was a lurker for a long time. My first entry into commenting was in 2020, during the time that people were freaking out about the accusations against Biden by Tara Reade (remember that?). I thought I had information about her and Biden that cast doubt on her reliability and stability. A number of you thanked me for what I did.
So I have gradually unlurked. In the posts I have written I have always tried to include facts, not just opinions, and a lot of them have been directed to FP posts that I believe are incorrect in part. I have also tried to post in areas where I possess actual knowledge, based on my past experience as a law prof and lawyer and as someone who knows a lot about Middle East stuff. I also belong to an organization that attempts to advocate policies that I assume most of you would approve of and a PAC that supports a majority of the Democratic House and Senate members. I have met regularly with a number of the members who are from my area. None of them is corrupt, none is a tool of big donors (which I am surely not), and most of them are people that I think most of the commenters would find impressive. I know they are trying like hell to be of whatever help they can be to their constituents, many of whom have lost their jobs or have seen their life’s work obliterated. I disagree with them some times, and some times strongly, but I do so without assuming they are acting illegally, immorally, stupidly, or because they are gutless cowards. I also know that they are working on the days in which Congress is in recess, on things like meeting with constituents or, of course, raising money for the continual campaign that being in the House requires.
I want people to understand, as someone who lives in the DC area, that what is happening here is a disaster, and it’s fair to think of us as a place that is experiencing something like a hurricane. People are losing their jobs, are threatened with retaliation for positions that they have taken or are seeing their life’s work wiped away almost overnight.
In this moment of existential crisis, I’m not focused on what’s positive or negative, but I am very much focused on what’s constructive versus destructive. The Democratic members of Congress, and their chosen leaders, are not ideal, but they are all we have in Congress. We do not really have the time to have them resign and hold special elections. If we survive the next few months, and we want to primary a number of them, we can have that discussion, but it doesn’t help right now.
It is simply inaccurate to accuse them of doing nothing. It is unhelpful to urge them to do things that the current rules of one of the Houses or another doesn’t permit them to do. If you want them to go scorched earth, please be prepared to hear from the people whose livelihoods are going to be sacrificed along the way.
The reason I’m here is because, unlike so many other places, you have always been constructive. You tell us where we can help, and you actually provide advice for where we can contribute. Some of you provide information that has been invaluable to me and has literally helped me to stay healthy (looking at you AL). Betty, your writing lifts me up regularly. Adam, you are my go to source for Ukraine. MM, I think you were flat wrong in some of what you were saying, but I genuinely apologize if I came on too strong, and I’m sorry you felt the need to leave. We need all of us right now.
rikyrah
WaterGirl,
Love all the FrontPagers here. Even if I don’t agree.
John S.
@lowtechcyclist:
That’s just the one instance I found. As I said, you can use the query to look on other threads and find other examples if you are interested, which you don’t seem to be.
Your original request from the other thread was:
So I provided you with an example. I also gave you the means to find other examples if you felt this was a one-off.
The commenter he pied is me. I am the one he accused of being racist. Which I thought was funny since it came up as the first result in the Google search.
I do, at least to respect to comments that I have made. It is not justified. Calling people racist because you don’t agree with them doesn’t make it so.
John S.
@pajaro:
This is the way.
mvr
@Nukular Biskits:
Also, it was pretty clear to me (and I’ll bet to a number of others) that post-election-debacle mistermix was stepping in to fill a void that happened when a number of the other front pagers just couldn’t face posting at the volume we were used to for a while. I took that as a good thing even if it did make things a bit less varied than they sometimes are.
And I should say I appreciate having a wider range of views here, maybe than we have had for a while. I need to be exposed to some things I should think about.
Doug R
@WhatsMyNym: Near 25% down in the one month.
Who knew running a rampage through the center of federal government would be unpopular?
Josie
@ArchTeryx:
Thanks. You just gave me my first laugh of the morning. That image will remain with me for a while.
Janus Daniels
“Who else wants to get back to that?”
We’ve got that. That is what BJ always has been and I hope always will be.
But over the years I have hoped you guys would slap down some comments a bit more often.
MomSense
I don’t really feel like going through all of it again, but I will say this. A comment policy is useless without moderators.
I get that FPers are unpaid people and the events of last July and then after the election made a lot of FPers stay away from the comments, but that is a big factor in why we are where we are.
I’m sad about it. I haven’t quite found a new online home, but this place has become an echo chamber with no tolerance for differing views and with constant passive aggressive comments and insinuations of racism.
I actually don’t think that just moving forward will work. When everyone feels like they were on the receiving end of bullying, some sort of conflict mediation with a qualified person(s) is needed.
Honestly, I’m too tired. What energy I have outside of work, caring for an elderly mom, my own health challenges, is better spent on organizing locally, and enjoying my family.
wonkie
I’m the opposite. I rarely read the comments and rarely comment. I think one of the problems with BJ comment threads is that it IS a roomful of smart people–and the tendency is to be smartmouth. A mean girl vibe. I’m sorry to see it become toxic to people. I’ve been reading this blog forever and would really, really miss it if John decided to pull the plug. YOu all might go over to Obsidian Wings where very smart people write comments that are blogs in and of themselves sometimes. But stay here too!
Ron from MN
Long time lurker from the days of Tunch and some days when iIlog on here while I have my breakfast, I stay for a couiple of hours as the the conversation is civil and interesting and i’ll probably check in later in the evening. But lately I’m just as likely to say “yikes, I dont need all this pissing on each other” and I’m out in 5 minutes.
Anyways, everyone have a great day and keep pressuring your representative and senators to do the righrt things!!
Ruckus
@prospero:
This concept of conversation is not all that old in the general scheme of life. Some days it is back fence generalities, a modern sewing circle if you will. Some days it may involve important stuff. Some days vital stuff. Some are here for all of it and some for bits and pieces. And I’d bet, as it’s humanity, some are here to, well there are no other words for it – stir up shit. This concept of discussing whatever is as old as speech over the back fence or over a beer at the local pub. This online stuff is just the modern version. Which allows far more people, from far more places to be involved. It’s just that now the back fence is world wide. It gives us a place to talk, to find common ground, to stir up whatever. Most of us have never met more than a few of the many, those local to us. IOW it is humanity, in all it’s good and all it’s not so much.
And here’s the kicker, I’ve made similar comments on more than one occasion because, as it’s always been in humanity, we don’t always see eye to eye or appreciate all the rest of the humans we interact with. That is one thing that this makes better – that we can participate on a larger level, have discussions, get pissed off, recover and move on – just on a far, far bigger/wider stage. We won’t always like everyone, we won’t always be liked by everyone. Such is life. And one of the great things is that we can exchange ideas and ideals, along with just having the largest back fence in history.
Planetjanet
@lowtechcyclist: Professor Bigfoot was responding to my comment. He had mentioned racism as a factor in the election. As I recall the Professor had been quite civil. John basically referred to him as a troll, that it is annoying to constantly bring up the topic of racism. It was absolutely dismissive. I did respond in anger that mentioning racism is not trolling. At this point, no one should be in doubt that racism is a driving motivator in our current politics. This backhanded dismissiveness is just as mean and cold hearted.
Josie
@@heymistermix.com:
Nope, I disagree. I try to never attack or abuse any other commenter, but I sometimes put someone in the pie filter for my own sanity. I don’t announce that I have done it; I just do it and go on reading those comments that don’t upset me. Without the pie filter, BJ would not be as enjoyable an experience for me.
I also want to say that I appreciate all the front pagers and the work they do, especially WaterGirl and Anne Laurie.
WaterGirl
@Planetjanet:
John? John S. or John Cole?
West of the Rockies
@TaMara:
For what it’s worth, I very much appreciated your posts and the tremendous effort you put in here. I also understand your reasons for stepping away.
Also, I have found the increased negativity here a gut punch: the “we are so screwed” attitude. I think it’s why Omnes stepped away. (Please come back!)
Yes, Democratic leadership is imperfect, but let’s not assume they’re too stupid to forge a way forward.
Planetjanet
@WaterGirl: John S.
John S.
@Planetjanet:
That’s certainly your take on things. We’ll have to agree to disagree.
As for trolling:
If people don’t act like trolls, they won’t get accused of being trolls. Pretty simple.
This is a straw man. I don’t believe anyone who regularly comes here believes that. But there’s a big difference between discussing the racism that is a huge factor in politics and constantly bludgeoning people who don’t always look through that prism and see the same thing.
PJ
It personally makes no difference to me whether MM stays or goes, or stays to post but turns off comments. It’s his life. But he is not some small harmless bunny that mean commenters have driven away. He is an adult, entirely certain of himself, who often makes statements that are snide and, at best, unconsidered. He doesn’t have to read comments, but to suggest that readers not call him out on dubious statements is ridiculous.
For a different perspective on this kerfuffle, some of you may be interested in the comments from non-white people in this thread: https://balloon-juice.com/2025/02/25/tuesday-morning-open-thread-battling-the-repubs-dishonest-budgeting/.
Scout211
I like WaterGirl’s message, as I understand it. We need to look at ourselves and make sure our own comments don’t contribute to the rancor and divisiveness in the comment section. We may feel justified to snap back or criticize, but is there a different way to say it? Do we need to say it?
But as I read through the comments in this thread, the finger-pointing and blame is starting here, too. Sigh.
We can only ”police” ourselves because when we try to “police” others, the rancor and divisiveness continues unabated.
And now I will bow out, since I’m doing the same thing*. ;-)
*policing, that is. Sorry.
Ruckus
@John S.:
I find it easy to walk on by posts and/or comments I don’t like. That may have come from being in the USN and sleeping in a room with about 75 other humans, some of whom snore and NONE of whom I got to choose to be around. (And of course they got accorded the same of me!) We are all human, at least I think we are, and we will and do have differing views and ideals. (I’ve lost track of how many times I’ve made similar comments in the around/almost 2 decades I’ve been on this blog. But this is the world’s biggest back fence to talk over, to discuss important (and useless!) stuff. To learn new, to discuss old, to gossip. Most of us will never met in real life, but we get to see far more of the world, even if it’s only in bits and pieces. I’ve said this here before but I’ve had the fortune to travel to a lot of places (USN) and met people from many countries and walks of life. And to find out that life has far more similarities than differences. And that often those differences are what make the world of humanity better. I’ve been to the northern tip of Norway and stood on the ice in Antartica. And many, many places in between. I’ve lived on both coasts of this country and places in between. I’ve worn out many pairs of shoes walking on a lot of it. And the best part was meeting a hell of a lot of people from many countries. We won’t ever agree with everyone else, that is what makes life interesting and sometimes difficult, and a learning experience.
jowriter
@pajaro: I really like your comment. My daughter and her husband are both in DC, and you are correct about the mood there. Many, many people playing important roles and who have made great careers to improve the functioning of our country have been summarily dismissed. People who have been let go (USAID folk especially) are struggling to figure out next steps. It’s a lot and we should also aim guns in the right direction at the moment, and that is not inside the tent. I’ve been trying to keep my own head above water, mood-wise, which is tough to do when your kids are in the pits. I appreciate your comment. Folks away from DC and without connections here have no idea how bad it is right now. When a fight breaks out on BJ, I just have to leave for the sake of my own sanity. We need to be tolerant of differing opinions in our big tent, and also, keep hope alive.
John S.
@Ruckus:
I am trying to embrace the “walk on by” approach. I just have a hard time watching the same folks engage in toxic behavior and make this place unpalatable for so many.
Which incidentally, many of those same folks are still downstairs in the morning thread talking shit about MM instead of engaging on this thread. Which just goes to show how interested they are in making it a better place for everyone.
PJ
@John S.: For some people, “making it a better place for everyone” means “making it a better place for white people to not have to consider their implicit attitudes.”
Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony
@gene108:
I agree this is driving a lot of the sniping. There’s been this, ‘If you only listened to MEEE, none of this would have happened’ back and forth day after day after day for MONTHS. And the thing is, because we can’t actually know what would have happened until a variety of scenarios, its unprovable. Because its unprovable, it can never be resolved. Everyone will always believe they were right all along. Which means the endless post-mortems are an exercise in useless, draining futility. This same finger pointing dance was performed between Bernie folks and Clinton voters for years. What did that solve? Nothing. It led to years of infighting and we’ve got Trump, twice now.
John S.
@PJ:
Ok, and I will assume good faith on the part of those people. Is that actually what people are saying to them? Are there substantive conversations happening about what makes people feel that way?
Not in my opinion.
Soprano2
I skipped about half the comments. I would like for this place to be more congenial like it used to be. What I wish EVERYONE could remember is that no one knows what anyone else’s experiences in life have been, and how they feel about them. There is NO WAY I can know what the experience of a non-white person is in this country, and there never will be. I can listen and try to learn, but I will never truly completely understand it. There is no way I can know what it was like to be in the military, or in combat. I don’t know what it’s like to be a parent or give birth, because I’ve never done those things. OTOH, I’m taking care of a husband who has dementia and other health problems, and unless you’ve actually done it you can’t really understand what it’s like. I guess this is a long way of saying I wish EVERYONE could give other posters the benefit of the doubt and believe they are posting in good faith, rather than immediately believing that they are posting in bad faith and attacking them for it. I think most of us on this blog agree on about 95% of things, so why is there so much assumption of bad faith? It makes no sense to me. My mother used to tell me it wasn’t what I said, it was how I said it, and I think there’s been a lot of that going on here since July 2024. All I can do is control what I do and say, I can’t control anyone else, I can only ask that everyone remember that most all of us are posting our thoughts in good faith and might be saying things that we don’t realize are offensive or wrong to you because we haven’t had the same experiences you’ve had.
Emily B.
@@heymistermix.com: I find the pie filter useful.
I pie relatively rarely, usually only when a commentator’s posts just repeat the same rant ad nauseam. That commentator has lost both my interest and my trust, on that particular subject. And there have been a couple of times since last July when I would have stopped reading BJ if not for the pie filter.
That said, in almost every case, I’ve removed the pie filter when the conversation moved on to other topics and grew calmer.
Shalimar
@PJ: People are awful. Please eliminate all of them.
Chris Johnson
I just don’t trust that people are in good faith. I mentioned second and third order trolling and I think that accounts for a lot. People get swept up in the opinions of those they trust and try to make sense of the world.
People talk about being subtweeted by COMMENTERS and I go oh you sweet summer child…
It’s impossible for me to tell who’s good people anymore. Could be ALL good people who’ve lost their damn minds. When they go after Hakeem Jeffries they lose me. When they go after what Dems we have, they lost me. When they go after ME, I’m just gobsmacked and like, what the hell is wrong with you that I can’t exist giving you a side-eye, that such a thing matters in any way?
I got through the time when I posted as Applejinx, and learned better about a lot of things. I would have thought people who know would be comfortable with not taking me too damn seriously. But then I’d be subtweeting myself, when the only reasonable option is to run the hell away from this place as a lost cause: a place where the forces of evil got such a lock on things, from who knows which directions, that they Democratted us.
That would be when bad energy is directed towards a wildly diverse coalition dedicated to that very diversity, and capable of amazing growth and progress (much like the USA!) so long as the fabled circular firing squad are not intentionally provided with A10 Warthog miniguns and told to go to it because the other guy’s out to kill you.
It looks like that’s the weak spot of a diverse multicultural democracy, whether it’s a nation or it’s simply a blog. And I 100% don’t know what to do about that. The only thing I DO know what to do is this: when I see the subtweeting, when I see the divisiveness, when I see things falling apart in this exact way as it did in our country, all I can do is not trust that behavior.
And give up fighting, write off the idea of ‘winning’.
And continue to NOT TRUST THIS SHIT.
(seriously: if I expect vindication in these circumstances I’ll have lost my damn mind too. Best I can hope for is if things turn ugly, a bunch of people will go ‘wait, what? Him? That was the bad guy? Run that by me again’. ‘cos none of this makes any sense.)
chrome agnomen
@NutmegAgain: I , like you, seldom post, but read 98% of the comments. I think the dude’s comment is proposing here when considering comments one might take issue with.
‘yeah, well, that just, like, your opinion, man.’
and this saves a lot of anguish, rather than taking things as received wisdom with which to contend.
WaterGirl
To be clear, the pie filter is not going away. Use it or don’t, it’s a personal choice.
Balloon Juice is not going away.
Personally, I’m just looking for an awareness that will hopefully help stop the needless bashing and petty passive aggressive bullshit. We are better than that.
PJ
@John S.:
Black people here are trying to have that conversation, but they get brushed off as “being mean” to Mistermix, or “being divisive”.
Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony
@PJ:
While I agree we all need to be mindful of our biases and apologize when we have offended others, what is the real ask and what is sufficient evidence that people have considered their implicit attitudes? That is never clear. It’s more that we can never have a political post that talks about anything else including what we can productively do to stop Trump. At what point do we lose the plot and point?
When I was young and actively involved in the gay rights movement, I remember when Colorado passed laws that were really hostile toward gay people. People were on fire to act. I attended a meeting full of people ready to act. Instead of harnessing that energy, they spent the entire two hour meeting discussing whether their leadership was sufficiently diverse and what that really meant and what processes they should use to ensure adequate diversity. Half the people didn’t come back because their expectations for the meeting was concrete, practical to-dos that they could use to combat rising anti-LGBT+ extremism. They went elsewhere. You can scream that that was racism, but mostly it was people who needed something they weren’t getting from that group.. a means to channel their rage into concrete action.
During Trump’s first term, the Women’s March was pretty powerful, until it slowly got whittled down by more and more bitter infighting.
If we beat Trump, it won’t be through building a utopia where everyone is free from bias. It will be by DOING THINGS TO STOP THEM. That will mean tolerating people you don’t like and who don’t like you. That doesn’t mean shutting up. State it when you think something is biased. State it when you disagree. Do not make it the focus of every single solitary political post.
PJ
@Shalimar: I like people. But we all need others to call us on our BS. It’s up to us whether we pick up on that call or not.
Shalimar
@PJ: We all need people who are supportive and helpful too. And mostly tune out the people who spend all their time calling others on their BS. It’s exhausting.
Nancy
I’m recovering from surgery and also trying to work from home.
I also liked the old days when comments usually were about the substance of the post. I find the tangents annoying because the tangent takes over and it seems like the post is forgotten. Also the in jokes. I’ve been reading since the Iraq debacle but I don’t know what is going on between commenters and it’s OK that I don’t. But if a back and forth conversation seems to take over then I stop reading.
I missed that mistermix was leaving and I didn’t know that comments to his posts were closed. I’m slow to notice changes if I’m not here regularly. I have noticed that Watergirl is distressed lately and I regret that. You work so hard and keep things running.
But Balloon-Juice is my first stop when I have time. I appreciate the effort and ability of the people who post. I can write so fluently and so often. All of those who post impress me.
I also understand that the site needs new content so having all mistermix was not a bad thing for me.
I’m sharing random thoughts. I hope we can come together and make this work.
Kim Walker
I’ve been a big fan of BJ forever. I used to read lots of different blogs (Daily Kos, FDL (ha!), Atrios, Americablog (?), Josh Marshalls place, etc) in the horrible Bush regime years. They have fallen by the wayside as BJ seems more like home. I have loved all the front pagers (except Freddie) and miss them when they go. They fill niches that help make a coherent whole, if you understand what I mean. I also dislike the sniping. In these anxious times it makes me feel a lot more anxious. Back in July I did pie some folks for a few days. And these were people I generally and genuinely look forward to reading (not FPs of course). But I did feel better after a few days and un-pied. I feel that some people lash out and some people hide when feeling overwhelmed. Understandable.
dnfree
@@heymistermix.com: For what it’s worth, I didn’t think you put up too many posts a day, but I really don’t care how many or few there are. Everyone here is working for free! I appreciate reading everyone’s posts, including yours, and the effort that everyone puts in.
As for my fellow commenters, I don’t pie anyone. I just ignore them if I think they’re repetitive. I’m sure some have pied me.
I have been surprised to find that there are certain beliefs I have expressed in the comments that get a response of not “I disagree with you”, but “You’re wrong”. It’s perfectly possible for two people to look at the same set of facts and reach different conclusions. A little more tolerance for different interpretations of events, and different perspectives from fellow commenters and front-pagers, would be welcome.
PJ
@Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony:
See, I don’t see people here making bias “the focus of every single political post”. This whole kerfuffle started because Mistermix was miffed that he was being called on his BS, and decided to not post anymore. Nobody asked him to leave. Everybody certainly tolerated him. He just got tired of having his judgments questioned. Now, because he made a thing of it, every third post is “please don’t be mean to the posters”, when none of the posters will ever address why commenters were “being mean” (i.e. asking questions about his dubious statements.)
John S.
@WaterGirl:
So the elephant in the room isn’t going to be addressed? Because if a multicultural group of generally like-minded liberals can’t find a constructive way to discuss topics like race, how the hell are we ever going to improve social justice?
John S.
@PJ:
I am asking you right here and right now. Is there something implicit in what I said about the topic of this post that you found racist?
ETA: Specifically, I am trying to unpack this comment of yours:
dnfree
@PJ: There’s a fine, or not so fine, line between having someone call me on my BS and having someone tell me I’m wrong when I don’t think I am; I’m just expressing an opinion different from theirs.
Josie
@John S.:
And…scene.
comrade scotts agenda of rage
@Nancy:
A *thousand* times this. My one critique of the FPers and the direction BJ has taken over the last 7 or so years is that everything, damn near, has been tagged “open thread”.
When I first started commenting more than once in a blue moon, I saw exactly what you described and said something because for a gazillion years, we didn’t have every post be a sub-open thread. I was immediately told “This is an Open Thread so there!”
What it allowed some people to do was always derail the topic of the original post into their pet issue, ie., the tangent you mention. And woe betide anyone who pushed back on that (which comes back to one of MM’s comments about new commenters pushing back on some of ‘bullshit orthodoxy’ that’s come to dominate such ‘open thread’ discussions constantly and being called trolls or toxic, etc).
If the FPers make one substantive change going forward, it’s getting rid of the willy-nilly open thread-ness of any given post. Sure, I’m not expecting them to police it per se but given how people report alleged transgressions of form to Cole and WG, there’s nothing wrong with doing the same if there’s repeated behavior in threads that are deemed “non open”, and make sure most threads are “non open”.
PJ
@John S.:
I am not sure which specific comment of yours you are referring to, but my initial comment was responding to your specific comment #141, which seemed dismissive of the opinions of non-white commenters, which, in general, have been dismissed on this issue. Perhaps I misread it.
dnfree
@Soprano2: Excellent points. A little grace and tolerance for everyone else, and a recognition that each of us has our blind spots, but the great majority of us are people of good will and intentions.
John S.
@PJ:
My apologies. I clarified above after realizing I left it ambiguous.
What did I say in comment #141 that you felt was dismissive of the opinions of non-white commenters?
Starfish (she/her)
@comrade scotts agenda of rage: The annoying tangents don’t even have to do with any of the topics.
For a while, there were a lot of people trying to get in as the first commenter and posting “Frist.”
Having a late night music thread with multiple people participating? Cool.
Attempting to turn every thread into a music thread in which you are the only person participating? Uncool.
HopefullyNotcassandra
@pajaro: I agree with you about the need to be constructive right now.
Nonetheless, I do wonder if the democrats should bail out the republicans again this time. I know it will be awful for many if they don’t. Yet, how can the republicans be exposed as the destructors they are if the democrats always clean house for them and too few notice?
I may be out of the commenting loop by now. If not, please give me your thoughts.
Professor Bigfoot
@PJ: And that’s why he’s pied for me. There’s no point in trying to genuinely engage with someone determined to misunderstand you.
WaterGirl
@PJ: If you thought this post was “don’t be mean to the front-pagers”, then I clearly failed. That was not the intent of my post but I did think it might be helpful to hear a bit what it’s like when you’re the one writing.
I think the mean girl passive aggressive saying shitty things about other people without having the guts to say it to their face or use their name is more corrosive than anything a front-pager can do.
*mean girl behavior is not reserved just to mean girls.
WaterGirl
@John S.:
What about what I’ve written makes you say that?
PJ
@John S.: I just wrote something that got eaten. My comment was provoked by yours but it was much more a general response to the tone of the blog since Mistermix got his ego ruffled by some fairly normal comments to one of his blog posts. Since then, he has become the beloved martyr – “Come back, Mistermix! Come back!” – while the black commenters who took issue with his attitudes have become the bad guys who drove him away. I think those commenters have a point worthy of discussion that many here would just as soon ignore.
I don’t think you, or anybody here, probably, is racist, but I think we all have implicit attitudes which can be disrespectful of or hurtful to others.
I also find the whole thing tiresome and I am going to stop with this.
WaterGirl
@Professor Bigfoot:
I am guessing that he might well say exactly the same thing about you.
I haven’t been reading BJ posts and comments enough in the past 3 weeks to know anything more than that you guys are completely crosswise.
WaterGirl
@PJ: I will look for your comment.
edit: nothing in spam, pending, or trash.
HopefullyNotcassandra
@Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony:
is that not the awful truth?
John S.
@WaterGirl:
I don’t pie anyone. And that comment is the perfect embodiment of everything that is wrong here.
You should know, there are times when I engage Professor Bigfoot in a civil and honest way. There’s no reciprocity.
The comments in this thread alone speak for themselves.
John S.
@PJ:
Ok. Appreciate the response.
zhena gogolia
@PJ: Exactly.
WaterGirl
@PJ:
For what it’s worth, I am hearing a mix of “oh no, don’t go, hope you come back” and “he couldn’t take the heat”. It’s easy to think that everyone thinks a certain thing because a few people are vocal.
I will just say that mistermix leaving seems to be turning BJ into “camps” again. Same dance, different name. Maybe even different people on the different sides.
But why is this turning into sides?
We are not the Sharks and the Jets, rival gangs against one another. We really aren’t.
We are a bunch of mostly really good people who want a lot of the same things.
PJ
@WaterGirl:
I also think not directly addressing the person whose statement you have an issue with can be counter-productive, if you actually want to engage with them on the issue. But sometimes what seems to happen is that a person responds to a comment about something a poster (or another commenter) wrote, and it becomes a sub-discussion where the original poster is not directly referred to, not out of passive-aggressiveness, per se, but because it feels like a separate colloquy, even though everyone else, including the poster, can read it.
I absolutely appreciate the work you and other posters do on this site.
Planetjanet
@John S.: This is not true.
PJ
@WaterGirl:
I’m pretty sure it timed out – I was editing a previous comment.
John S.
@WaterGirl:
I have emailed you about that. I know you’re busy, and I’m sure you will see it eventually.
John S.
@Planetjanet:
Your opinion is most certainly not a fact.
Planetjanet
@John S.: Let me elaborate. I have certainly seen Professor Bigfoot try to engage with you and others. You can see it for yourself in the earlier thread this morning. He was gracious and thoughtful. What I am seeing is your description of events paints interactions as black and white, all or nothing. I try to treat everyone with kindness. I try to pay attention to nuance and look for context. The world just is not all or nothing.
John S.
@PJ:
That’s why I was trying to understand where you were coming from in claiming that I was being dismissive of non-white perspectives. It was something direct and specific.
It’s a shame your response got eated by FYWP.
hitchhiker
All I know is that when there’s horrible news, this is the only place I can stand to read about it.
(And when there’s great news, I want to swan around in here all day long and celebrate virtually.)
I appreciate WG’s effort here to give us what my dad would have called a dope slap, and I wish I had a better answer than just to encourage comments that manage to be both direct and kind. It’s possible we’ve become so accustomed to bad faith in public spaces that we just reflexively spit at each other.
I have to say, if these motherfuckers and their evil flood-the-zone-with-shit tactics have managed to make even THIS community turn on itself, they’ve earned the place in hell that I wish I could believe is waiting for them.
Fuck that. I’m sticking with the assumption that right here is where you can assume good faith, almost always accompanied by humor, generosity, and brains.
Ruckus
@John S.:
They aren’t.
They think, such as it is, that they are making the world better for them. But until they grow the fuck up, they won’t. I’m not holding my breath.
WaterGirl
@dnfree: So much going straight to 11 these days!
WaterGirl
@PJ: Oh, yeah, that sucks. I get caught on that sometimes, too!
WaterGirl
@John S.: I saw your email.
But this thing between you and Professor Bigfoot is an ongoing issue, much bigger than one comment or one response. If I weighed in without more information and more perspective I would be doing more harm than good.
Nancy
@Nancy: I meant that I CANT write fluently and frequently and I appreciate those who can.
WaterGirl
@hitchhiker:
Ha! I haven’t heard that term before, but as I washing my dishes just now I was thinking that this post was like my dad walking down the hall to say to my two sisters and I:
“Why can’t you kids just get along?”
I guess my dad would be proud. :-)
John S.
@Planetjanet:
How? He just said up thread he has me pied. And he literally just engaged someone else here about me instead of engaging me. You know, exactly the kind of behavior WaterGirl asked people not to do in this thread.
Anyway, I’m not going to discuss this further. It’s exactly the sort of thing that we should be getting away from.
Planetjanet
@John S.: I am asking you to try listening to others. You seem very defensive and angry. We can talk through disagreements. No one is always right or always wrong.
John S.
@WaterGirl:
Wow, so you really think it’s just a conflict between me and him? Ok.
What further perspective would help you see the problem with this comment:
Maybe I shouldn’t stick around here to see how people react to someone saying:
Because I fail to see how one statement is ok and the other one is not.
WaterGirl
@John S.:
No I do not think it’s ONLY just a conflict between the two of you.
But you both seem to set one another off in a pretty big way. And I don’t want to be like the idiot / asshole boss who jumps in and draws conclusions without understanding the bigger picture of what the hell is going on.
karen gail
I have been on-line since the early 1990’s; at the start people were careful, courteous, and patient. If you joined a group you pulled out your going to “church” behavior. It took time to get to know people and to trust them.
In the last 10 or maybe 15 people have gotten more comfortable and treated groups more like being in school rather than church; it was especially true about groups of people with whom you had common experiences. It also meant something if you said you had 40 or more years of life experiences to base your opinions on or when you shared knowledge or skills.
The last few years it has gotten progressively worse; the willingness to judge, criticize, and lash out at strangers. Part of it has be the willingness of so many to say in public what was once whispered in dark back rooms; people are hateful and proud of it. They were willing to hide behind the keyboard and say anything cruel, hateful and evil; now we see people are willing to speak these same things in public.
I have noticed that while people once hid behind white hoods ashamed to show their faces, now put on a red hat and brag about the evil they spew and believe. It isn’t just here, it is everywhere; not just in US but the whole world appears to rushing towards self-destruction of everything that may be good or honest or empathetic.
WaterGirl
@John S.:
I took a quick look at that thread after you sent me email about yesterday.
There was a whole lot of generalizing going on in that conversation, with a bunch of people making generalizations about a lot of stuff. Not our finest hour. Happily, I don’t even recall who all the participants were, so I’m not judging anyone in particular.
In college we called that “pulling it out of the whacko hat”, which was a nicer way of saying we pulled it out of our ass.
but we have so many bigger fish to fry here that to me that’s not the hill to die on. We can’t fight every battle or pull on every string.
There’s been a lot going on for the past couple of days, as you have surely noticed
I just checked, and I have 13 different posts that I have started since the election, and either never finished or never posted them. That would be 14, except that I put up another one of them a little while ago.
WaterGirl
@karen gail:
Are you really saying that what you described fits people who are here on balloon juice?
geg6
@@heymistermix.com:
Completely agree about the pie filter. It leads to closed minds, IMHO.
John S.
@WaterGirl:
I think you are allowing a dangerous precedent to take root here and somewhat glossing over the issue that I have with comments like that.
Is this just pulling out the “whacko hat”?
How about this?
At what point does this type of discussion turn from “whacko hat” into something far worse?
geg6
@Jackie:
THIS! I hate that and it’s been one of the reasons I haven’t been around these parts much. Until today, for some reason.
I think July 2024 broke us as a community. We can fix it but not unless everyone gets on board.
Gin & Tonic
@geg6: I agree as well. I have never pied anyone – not even BiP when he called me a Nazi. I cut my teeth on 1980’s Usenet, which was a lot harsher than B-J has ever been.
Lynn Dee
@JML: Yes. Definitely. “None of your business,” I figure.
Funny thing, though. Almost a year ago now I had a first visit with my new primary doctor (the previous one retired), and I encountered that questionnaire. My dog of ten years had just died after we suddenly, unexpectedly, discovered he was sick, so I was pretty distraught and for some reason decided to answer, more or less truthfully, the questions about (if I recall correctly) how sad I was, how often I felt sad during the week, etc. Nothing was said about it during that first appointment, and afterward I kind of regretted my answers and hoped nothing more would be said. This was not to be. So, next appointment, my doctor (I think? maybe a nurse?) asked me about my responses, and I just sort of waved it off, explaining my dog had just died. A truer or more complete answer would’ve included: “I do also have anxiety and a bunch of unresolved shit I’ll probably never get around to doing anything about, but other than that …”
So I’m back to “none of your business.” Mind you, therapy or counseling is a whole other thing. But for “regular” doctors, that’s my approach.
Miki
@geg6: Agree x 2.
I briefly tried using the pie filter last summer, and it felt like trying to read a book that had pages ripped out. Something was missing ….
If some commenter is annoying me or worse, I’d still rather just scroll on by the offensive comments because chances are there’s bound to be something worth reading eventually.
Spanish Moss
Thanks for trying again on this topic, WaterGirl. I would like to get back to that.
Like many others, I don’t use the pie filter, I feel like being a good listener is important. There are certain commenters I dread to see arrive on a thread because it is likely they will insert their pet issue into a thread once again, but sometimes they surprise me and say something interesting and I am glad that I gave them a chance. I respect that others feel they need the pie filter, I just wish that people didn’t feel the need to tell someone that they are pieing them, I think it makes the tone even uglier.
WaterGirl
@Gin & Tonic: @geg6:
I have never pied anyone.
Except during site testing, of course, during which I also pied myself. (yes, you can pie yourself!)
I do scroll past people that i’m not interested in hearing from – people who post unrelated links, people I don’t respect, people who exaggerate, people who say the same thing over and over.
Life’s too short to read all of it.
Curious, do you guys think that also leads to a closed mind?
WaterGirl
@Spanish Moss: I agree with you, the pie filter is meant as a positive thing for any individual person who wants to use it. It really wasn’t intended a weapon to shiv others with. But everyone makes their own choice.
Maybe it’s as simple as Donald Trump turning people toward being angry, ugly, and mean. If that’s the case, I hope everyone who is falling into that trap wakes up and decides they aren’t going to allow Trump to turn them into that.
Stella
It is annoying, as a minority, to always have to explain yourself. To try to make people see things that are so obvious to you. This can become so aggravating it becomes the default way you interact with others, to just assume they’re talking at you instead of to you. This is all normal and natural.
It’s also really frustrating to engage with when you are actually trying to engage with someone.
I’m really not trying to restart the same arguments, but after days of reading Professor Bigfoot I’m not really any closer to knowing about his specific complaints rather than his general argument.
And I know why saying that to him feels like an aggression! If in real life I say I don’t know why black people don’t like cops, I’m either lying or clueless and either way that’s just annoying to deal with.
But this isn’t a general case, this is a beef with a specific person. And as someone that’s iffy on the comments, I just don’t know. And it really doesn’t help that the one example he is pointing at seems very “bitch eating crackers” syndrome, a thing that mostly seems to upset you due to the longstanding ill will, not the act itself.
I get all that! I get it.
But he still went to 11 immediately in the comments, and I have no idea how to even engage with that without just making it worse. Maybe that’s the trick, to just not engage. But if you’re not going to engage, doing any commentary at all just seems pointless. Just have the whole argument in my head and save myself time.
I dunno. There have been so many comments over the past few days I wanted to respond to, but just seemed like it’d be more fuel. When everyone is so caught up with the past arguments they’ve had they can’t see the current one, it seems pointless.
If all you do is agree, what’s there to say? And if people can’t see disagreement as anything other than willful ignorance or an attack, what’s the point?
pajaro
@HopefullyNotcassandra:
Sorry for stepping away. I think the Democrats need to hold out for a budget resolution that doesn’t make large cuts. We also need to have some assurance that the money that is appropriated is actually spent, and I’m honestly not sure how to do that in a way that we can enforce.
Gin & Tonic
@WaterGirl: I think it’s self-reinforcing. Those people who are more inclined to not listen to others’ point of view will find pie an attractive option to not hearing other points of view. More often than not, I see “ha ha, pied” as a boast, rather than an acknowledgement that I have serious issues with how you’re commenting and for now I prefer not to engage.
My mouse has a scroll wheel.
That said, “I’m going to continue to post here but you can’t talk back to me” seems pretty sleazy.
siddhartha
This is really sad. I appreciate all the FPs. I have been lurking since John was a Republican. I have watched as Fps evolved on different issues as we all do. But, this space really needs to understand that decentering whiteness can FEEL like an attack but it is not. The making it personal is what demonstrates white privilege. There are many of us who have spent lifetimes learning how to decenter whiteness-as writers, professors, activists, etc. But we cannot become full fledged members of this community. White platitudes about the “real enemy” are another form of white flight. What’s especially sad is that nothing I am saying is new. Black women have been saying these things for centuries.
karen gail
@WaterGirl: Yeah, I noticed that sometimes it is here on Balloon Juice and when that happens I stop reading the comments for days on end.
Not that anyone appears to be putting on red hat, but some of those who troll give me the impression that they are red hats.
I have gotten some “replies” to something I commented on that have made me just stop reading then I try to shut down rather than say what I think or feel. I don’t need a keyboard fight or battle; so I stay away.
zhena gogolia
@siddhartha: Right.
WaterGirl
@Stella: This is an awesome, constructive comment. thank you!
WaterGirl
@siddhartha: Can you expand on what you’re saying?
What is really sad? I am not sure if you’re responding to mistermix choosing to go away. Or to the post up to, and if it’s the post, which of the two parts are you referring to? Or is it something else?
Truly trying to understand. if you’re willing, can you say more in an email to me?
WaterGirl
@karen gail: if you’re willing, can you say more in an email to me?
John S.
@Stella:
I really appreciate your comment. I’ve never heard the expression “bitch eating crackers” before, but that’s a good one.
John S.
@WaterGirl:
So I guess we’re done talking here? If so, that’s fine. I’ll move on.
karen gail
@WaterGirl:
Water under the bridge; I try to leave past in past.
Also, no clue how to email anyone.
CatFacts
Dead thread, but one pattern I have noticed recently is that people seem to be conflating three separate issues.
Number one is the need to protect this space from bad-faith actors who are actually trolls with an agenda to break up the community. This is a good goal!
Number two is the front pagers’ understandable frustration with commenters who aren’t full-on trolls but like to mess with the front pagers just because they can or because they like complaining or something. These folks seem to be the ones this post by WaterGirl is addressed to. A call for empathy about the front pagers’ feelings seems appropriate here IMO.
Number three is different from the first two and is I think what commenters like Siddhartha and Professor Bigfoot and others are referring to. (Siddhartha and Professor B and others, feel free to correct me if I’m wrong.) This is that some front pagers and commentators who identify with mainstream-to-the-blog communities (generally white/straight/cis/middle-aged) can FEEL LIKE they’re being trolled or fucked with when commenters from more marginalized groups call them out directly on something that the mainstream-to-the-blog person honestly doesn’t see as an issue but really really is to the commentator from a more marginalized group.
For Issue Number Three, I personally don’t think centering the emotions of front-pagers or irate commenters from the blog’s cultural mainstream is a good solution. It has the (often unintended) effect of telling commenters who don’t identify with that mainstream to shut up because politeness/positivity is more important than listening/learning. To actually listen and build a coalition in this case means that front pagers and commentators from the cultural mainstream would need to sit with their uncomfortable emotions for a while and think about the substance of what’s being said. (Or at least shrug, pie, and wander off to another thread.) That’s HARD to do but necessary to form a true coalition.
The really tough part, of course, is to figure out which of the three is happening at a particular time.
I don’t have that answer. I do think it’s important to think about WHOSE emotions are being centered here. Personally, I’m a little bothered that so much emphasis has been placed on MM’s feelings and not the feelings of the mostly-not-white commentators who seem to have been most upset with his posts about New York.
I don’t have anything against MM! I don’t know shit about New York politics so I skipped those threads. But I do remember there weren’t as many front pagers publicly rallying around Planet Eddie’s feelings when they left after being put through the wringer in the comments. (Lamenting the general shitshow, yes. Calling out the specific commenters who sent eddie dozens of hostile posts an hour, no.) I don’t have an answer, but I do think all of us in this community — including the front-pagers — need to think about WHOSE feelings we have the impulse to protect and whose we don’t.
Gin & Tonic
@John S.: I’m not going to tell you what to do, but sometimes, if there’s an elephant in the room, it’s best to just walk around it.
comrade scotts agenda of rage
@siddhartha:
We see that manifest itself in different ways, particularly with expressions of (and I’m paraphrasing here): “I’m tired” or “I’m gonna withdraw to just me and mine for a while”, etc. Most often those are expressed by whites and I’ve typically translated that into a derivative level of IGMFY but ‘white flight’ works as well.
Thing is, it’s easy to sympathize with those feelings, they’re certainly expressed by some folks I respect, but they’re also yet another manifestation of the “white privilege” trope.
Suzanne
@Quiltingfool: I am late back to this thread, but you are so welcome, and thank you for your kindness. I have felt pretty beat up here in recent days and I greatly appreciate it.
WaterGirl
@John S.: Oh my gosh, John, please slow your roll. I have clients, I have a life, I have work to do. I could not make your question my #1 thing today, but that doesn’t mean that I don’t care about it or it will be ignored.
Complex issues cannot be solved in a day.
WaterGirl
@karen gail: For the record for you and anyone else, my email address is my nym at balloon-juice.com
comrade scotts agenda of rage
@WaterGirl:
Why the hell not? I mean we were promised flying cars 60 years ago and…
Wait, I’ll come in again.
:)
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@comrade scotts agenda of rage:
Maybe, but you have to take of yourself and your family first. You’re no good to anybody if you’re not doing well mentally, y’know?
WaterGirl
@CatFacts: Very wise and thoughtful comment from you, thank you.
With this post, I was trying to explain why on some days a front-pager might say fuck it, life’s too short. And I was calling out the bullshit passive aggressive attacks that I think are so corrosive to the community.
I think of it as having a tangled-up jewelry chain. You have to work around the edges and loosen it up a bit, only then can you get to where the real knot is.
Not talking about race here…. I just think we’re all stressed and frustrated, and if we spent less time pointing fingers and sniping at one another, then maybe we can move forward on resisting and opposing the awful things that are happening.
Your issue 3 is important, too, and very complicated. If there’s anyone on BJ who is truly racist, that can be taken care of, because they can be gone. The obliviousness and the “I don’t see what you’re seeing” requires thought and effort on all parts because “you’re doing it wrong” isn’t the recipe to helping someone understand the world as you see it.
Who knows? Maybe I’ve said something in this comment that you see as clueless or offensive? I think we have to assume good intent on all parts. This place is better for the presence of more than just white people, and I think it’s fair that no one wants anyone different from them other than go away.
comrade scotts agenda of rage
@WaterGirl:
I appreciated the breakdown because I look at this thru a theoretical “What House Caucus Would We Join If We Were In The House”, which is basically #3.
Based on years of comments, it’s pretty easy to see who falls where and that’s where a lot of friction comes into play here. 538 of all sites has a good look at this:
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/types-democrats-republicans-house-2024/
One thing I always say in relation to the pale Blue, entitled White Dems who I’m generally pushing back against, I don’t think of them as racist, meaning they don’t wake up every day and decide they’re gonna go burn a cross on the lawn of the remaining black family in the neighborhood they haven’t managed to displace.
What I do call them is “racially tone deaf”, it’s on display constantly around me in Denver in a micro-local kind of way because these same people are gobsmacked that POC here view them with suspicion based on policies and support of things that matter to them. It doesn’t matter if they voted for Obama back in the day or Harris last year (the vast majority did), they channel their inner “Show Me Missouri” attitude that’s pragmatic and unflinching.
And that plays out in here in a similar manner depending on the topic.
John S.
@WaterGirl:
That’s fine, WG. I have said in many occasions in email and on threads that I appreciate that fact.
You responded to several other commenters before and after mine, so I just figured we were done. That’s all.
No need to infer something that isn’t there. My expectation was not that I was the #1 thing. That’s actually a pretty passive aggressive accusation to make.
ETA: If you do find time to respond, would you mind doing it by email? I don’t plan on spending much time in the comments for the foreseeable future. Thanks!
suzanne
@John S.: I, for one, would like to see you stay. I think you’re a positive add to the discussion.
John S.
@Gin & Tonic:
Fuck it, dude. I’m going bowling.
John S.
@suzanne:
Thanks for that. I enjoy your comments and those of so many others here. But this has turned into a deeply unhealthy place.
I was hopeful at the beginning of this thread that things might change around here. But clearly, that ain’t gonna happen.
When not one person takes issue with the blatantly racist hypothetical comments that are framed the same way as actual comments made here, we have a serious fucking problem.
If you’d like to stay in touch, feel free to get my email from WG. But I’m going to lurk for a while.
Karen
@John S.: Why do you hate Jews?
Geminid
@WaterGirl: I think the racial.aspects of this controversy have been exaggerated. I’m not saying there aren’t any, and it’s true some of Mistermix’s sharpest critics were Black; but my pushback against Mistermix’s content was fairly intense and as he and I established last month, I am a White male like him. There were other White people arguing with him as well.
suzanne
@Karen: I think you’re misunderstanding….. IIRC, John S. is Jewish.
Geminid
@Karen: I do not think the commenter hates Jews at all. He has criticized his Orthodox Jewish relatives, but he is Jewish himself and is fairly open about this.
Nix Besser
Thank you for this. We are supposed to be rowing in the same direction. It’s easy to make disagreements personal.
When the original July crisis occurred, I was very engaged in a text discussion with a bunch of my fraternity brothers. The group is very aligned politically. We still had heated arguments about the way forward.
It’s a much smaller group than we have here. But, we respected each other’s opinions.
All I ask is that we all realize that we are aligned and that we have clear opponents that we must defeat. Do not live up to Will Rogers’ observation: I am not a member of any organized political party. I am a Democrat.
WTFGhost
Haven’t read comments yet. Eff me, I haven’t had a useful thought all day (and don’t bother commenting here, I’m terrified of reading comments).
Still, you mentioned getting better, including P/A behaviors, an dI’m totally insnane.
How do you try to weave community when people are cranky and upset and shitposting and such?
Well, first, remember the golden rule – do unto others, and you’d have them do unto you. But remember: there was a time you were being an ass, and, at that moment, you wanted someone to say, quietly, “you’re being a bit of an ass. You okay?” or “you’re being a bit of an ass, and I haven’t seen you before, could I give you some tips?”
That’s a problem when the community can’t provide that – a pocket Usenet universe, where people could PM (we called it “e-mail”!) and post directly, but where their e-mail wasn’t instantly scooped up by scammer.
In public, it’s a lot harder, because there’s no private message, so you nominally wouldn’t want to say something too nasty, in public, except, well… “we” humans do that, don’t we? I’m not immune – I’m using a newer persona, to shed some history, but I remember feeling that, if only my anger blazed hot enough, I’d say the right words to… do what, exactly? Win a fight on the internet, where no one admits defeat? When I mock irrational anger, I’m mocking me, and my lack of vision, as well as anyone.
Me, I think the internet age has made the angry, spiteful, troll seem unbeatable, and I think it gets anger and spite elevated above where they should be in the national discoure. And, obviously, the balloon-juice community has faced challenges from this, I reckon. Well, how do you soften the tone?
First: self care. If you’re not caring for yourself, doing stuff to help with stress, and not recognizing when your emotions are pushing you around, you’re not engaging in self care sufficient to help build a community. And you might say “why should I eat right, exercise if needed, do pleasant things to alleviate stress, and keep myself from boiling over like a tea-kettle, JUST for building some community?” well, it might also save your life and/or make it much more pleasant, which will naturally make you a better person, but, you’re right, it *is* a bit much for a blog.
I’m not saying “OMG, bad community member, living on coke and pizza and netflix binges!” – it’s just, people don’t act their best when they don’t feel their best. And you think “I need a night of coke, and pizza, and netflix binges,” but maybe you really need a bit more real life for a bit, to remind you that those lazy-layabouts are there while you rest up for something better.
And again, remember, these things, ideally, don’t just help you build community on a *blog*. It helps you be ready to build community when you find it, where you find it, if you’ve got the right magic, and you can start really small, just sharing a happy drink with a stranger. I can’t promise you’ll lead flashmobs – are those still a thing? – but you’ll start to see how they happen.
Okay, back to a blog. Someone, somewhere, said “to share, give them something new, or give them smoething you” and that’s where community builds. If you feel safe to talk about how you got recognized at work, or got engaged, married, having a birthday, and there’s response, that’s community – something “you”. If you have to disagree with someone, can you at least counter them with something new. If you agree with an argument that upsets them, can you present it a different way? (be aware, earlier people may have tried that and it might not have helped!) if you can’t… can you not join a pile-on (which I know is hard, with noxious_comment at 15 and thread approaching doubleTbogg)?
Can you think of a way you’d show compassion to yourself, if you’d stepped in it this badly? Remember, “do unto others, as you would have them do unto you.” You’d want them to think of a lifeline to throw you; can you think of a way to throw them one? Can you at least not re-make a point that’s been made a dozen times ago? Remember: if the first 12 didn’t get through, lucky number 13 probably won’t either, so, are you serving yourself (which can be greedy) or the community there? I can’t answer – sometimes maybe you need that 13th response, and it’s not greedy, and is community building.
If someone isn’t posting a noxious comment, but you disagree, can you present a new link, or write up a quick tussle on a favorite disagreement, using your bestest-favoritest metaphors, without suggesting the other person is stupid? “We disagreed, you showed me another way to think; I still disagree, but that’s *cool*,” is a great way to build community.
Or, again, can you just add something personal – not deeply private/personal, but, the reason you started caring about x_issue, or, why a particular argument bothers you, particularly.
The final thing is… dear lord, do I see people who’ve learned habits from disfunctional families. Watergirl mentioned passive aggressive crap – that’s never really cool, but, sometimes there’s a reason. The term didn’t come into being as a way to criticize anyone who is emotional, but not shouting (though it is *used* that way, sometimes) – it’s a way of refusing to let something go, while nominally accepting it, and, without actually stating your complaint.
Fun fact: it’s easy to go wrong with each of those steps. Sometimes, you need to let something go, like, now, July 2024 has to be let go, no matter how bad your feelings are, because’s over, and maybe you didn’t think of one real zinger of an argument but… it _is_ over.
Obviuosly, once you nominally let something go, you can keep mentioning how you let it go, or uncomfortable facts around the need to let it go, and that’s not cool, and it means you have unresolved feelings, and, in counseling sessions, would be asked to resolve your feelings, rather than tossing them out where they don’t belong. Sometimes, you need to find a like minded person in the group and scream your complaints at them, while they sit by you sipping coffee, so you finally let all the yuck out of yourself. Because when you have unresolved, angry, feelings, it is yucky, to use a highly technical medical term.
Finally: sometimes, you realize you have a complaint, and it’s right and justified, and unheard, and unspoken. Well, take care of that complaint, let it grow into something that can be discussed, and resolved. Then, once it’s a big strong complaint, ready to take on the world like a Baby Groot, you can let it loose with some supporting words, but with less negative emotion – because when you identify a real problem, and start thinking real solutions, you stop feeling as put-upon that the justified complaint hurt you.
You do that, you might find you hate someone a bit because they really don’t care about your complaint. (e.g., “Sure, a lot of innocent Iraqis were killed, but, America had national interests served!” – so piles of corpses is trumped by unnamed ‘national interests’.) But now, at least, you know that you really dislike their decision making, and not to argue endlessly about “innocent lives lost”.
Okay, and finally: in addition to this, you realize you have a community around you, see? In that community, you’d like things to be better. So, you learn to drop things. Not because you’re especially saintly and mature, but because the community around you is more valuable than the quick, sneaky, shot you can make to other people.
(end_quotedd)
Karen
@suzanne: Thanks to you and Geminid for straightening that out. But then where did those comments come from?
Gin & Tonic
@Karen: They were a rhetorical device.
acronym
Firstly, respect to John and the many other volunteers that make this place run.
Having said that, I have been a reader of this blog for years and have valued it for its content.
I recently chose to become a commenter. It’s a choice I have come to regret.
As far as I can ascertain, my few contributions have been ignored or marginalized.
Apparently, I don’t fit in here either. So, it’s back to being an anonymous lurker for me.
Regards…
comrade scotts agenda of rage
@acronym:
You probably won’t see this but at least one person has now seen your comment. Me.
Yeah, it’s always been an issue here but over the last 7 or so years, it’s become a bad issue.
Geminid
@Karen: I couldn’t speak to the origin of the comment relating to Jewish people, but it wasn’t quoted with approval.
dnfree
@acronym: I came back to check the thread and decided to tell you hi also! I do not recall seeing your other comments, but then I don’t read all the comments on every thread. I’ve commented off and on for years and some people still think I’m new. Don’t get discouraged.
Geminid
@acronym: I started commenting here five years ago. My experience was similar to yours.
I could handle being ignored; I just told myself that my comment was so good I left nothing else to say!
More seriously, I think its good practice to say something back to new people, to be welcoming. I try to do that, but I don’t always think of it.
I also experienced marginilization, and have since seen this happen to other newcomers. There likely are several reasons for this but whatever the reason, regulars should try to be welcoming to newcomers and not push them. It’s much better for regulars to focus their animosity and vicious aggression upon known adversaries!
Now I’m joking here, as I sometimes do. But I think the word “known” raises an interesting point: we don’t really know the people we talk to here. We don’t neccesarily know if they’re happy or sad, if they’re riding high or behind the eight ball. Someone might come off as tough when they’re vulnerable, overconfident when they’re actually insecure.
These are reasons to be careful with each other. I can’t say I always am, but I want to be.
Chris
@Karen:
The original comment, quoted in his post here, was this one:
It was made by Bigfoot yesterday, here.
If I’m correctly understanding John S, who I believe is Jewish himself, what he’s asking is this: if that kind of comment can just sail through with so little pushback either in the original thread or this one, should we expect to continue seeing comments like this tolerated in the future, perhaps this time with the Jews being the ones stereotyped and dismissed rather than the Irish and Italians? And then other ethnicities as well?
Chris
@John S.:
I think I’m right behind you.
I’ve been posting less here lately and I commented on the Mistermix thing this weekend that I knew exactly how he felt and didn’t think I’d be here much longer, except possibly in the Ukraine and Medium Cool threads.
I didn’t see that comment in its original thread until you mentioned it in a later one, but it and the reactions to it both yesterday and today… yep, I think that did the trick. I’m neither Irish nor Italian nor Jewish, but I don’t need to be.
Other than that, I just want to say fair winds. I’ve long appreciated your contributions here, and hope you find a nice place to hang your digital hat.
John S.
@Chris:
You nailed it.
Thanks for the kind words. I’ll probably be over at MM’s place for a while and mostly just lurking here.
dearmaizie
@SamInWa: Same. Thanks for saying it.
WTFGhost
It’s hard – you want to hear a good response, and it’s like your work is gone for nothing, and, I feel for you, friend. I know; I get it; it hurts.
If I wasn’t so blasted tired all the time, I’d follow links and read news and all that, but for me, it’s not possible. So, I try to contribute where and how I can, but… I get the same thing. Sometimes it feels like I don’t contribute anything meaningful at all.
I *get* the need to respond to people, and posts, and I wish I could help you feel more gratitude for all the work you do, and you, especially, do a lot – barring Mistermix, I don’t know anyone who front-pages as often as you. So I wish I could… but I can’t.
I do appreciate what you folks do.