If you’ve ever tried to train a dog, you’ll know the moment when they know you want them to do something different, but they don’t know exactly what that is or how to do it. Do you want me to sit? I can sit! Lie down? I can do that! Here’s my paw, here’s my paw, is that what you want?
John hit it out of the park last night with an important piece. And in a wise and thoughtful comment, Eolirin points out the part of the story that Cole missed, and explains that missing piece in a clarifying way. I now have an inkling of what many of us need to learn to see, and we owe Eolirin a huge debt of gratitude for that investment of time and energy.
Eolirin
I hate to have to post something like this on a thread intended to try to move us toward good feelings and that’s probably going to be dead by the time it goes up, but I feel like it really needs to be said and at this rate I’m not sure I’m going to have many other opportunities to say it.
I think something really core is missing in this analysis of why things have been getting so bad. The way minorities get treated here has been a problem for a very long time and it’s at the core of even what happened with the Biden thing. There’s been a reason why the attempts to get more diverse voices front paged have failed.
Those of us who are really vulnerable tend to view the world in very different ways, and tend to view our places in communities in different ways, and that bleeds into politics just as much. The reciprocal nature of having the back of the people who have yours tends to be a lot stronger for us because almost no one has ours and we really need that to survive. That means attacks on our politicians are a lot more personal.
We also tend to be more sensitive to whether or not we will be supported in conflicts, whether or not it’s safe to express our difficulties and frustrations, whether or not we can make complaints against the way other people are treating us. We’re sensitive to a lack of support, to that support being conditional.
Lots of you get instantly defensive when whiteness is critiqued. Lots of you get dismissive when we talk about how we’re affected by our minority status. So most of us stop doing it eventually. The ones who don’t tend to be very vocal to the point of belligerent about it.
For those of us that are vulnerable, with the conditions we now face out in the world, the way we’re being treated, the level of existential threat to us and our communities, it’s all so bad that having to deal with the microaggressions and the lack of being listened to in a supposed safe space is not something that’s so easy to tolerate anymore.
I have already come this close to not wanting to be here because of Mix, and it wasn’t because of the post about Jeffries. It’s been nearly everything he’s been posting since the election.
A lot of my communities are in crisis. If the Medicaid cuts go through a lot people in one of my communities are going to die. I very well may be one of them. I really don’t need to see people spending more time tearing down Democrats, who will at least have our backs a little bit even if they ultimately fail, than talking about anything productive.
I don’t need to see people spending time spinning their wheels pretending to be political consultants focusing on messaging and social media presentation, despite having the ear of no one who could implement their demands for how Democrats need to talk, while Republicans get ready to cut off food stamps which will push a lot of my peers into starving to death. Or while they move toward criminalizing our very existence as trans people. It isn’t helpful, it comes across as tone deaf, and it’s more than a little offensive.
People who are in my situation are dealing with so much unpersoning right now that subtler forms of erasure like that, where the focus of two out of every three posts is talking about talking, about how Democratic leadership needs to clap louder to bring tinkerbell back from the dead, that are confusing basic concepts like the difference between how well you can speak and how well you can lead, the role of a movement and the role of Congress, and spending zero time focusing on how we’re affected, or on actual things people can do to help anything at all, are difficult to stomach. They reek of privilege.
To then retreat back into demands for everyone to be more civil, no matter how well intentioned and genuine, compounds the hurt, because what that is saying to those of us who are going to bear the worst of what’s happening is that we need to shut up about how the things people do are hurtful to us, but none of the people causing that hurt need to engage with the ways in which they’re hurting us.
Our positions are asymmetrical; whatever hurt you may experience from, say, being called a racist by people over the internet when you say a dumb thing, even and especially if you don’t think it was dumb, is literally nothing compared to the reality of our situations right now.
If unity and avoiding people like Mix having to be uncomfortable and feel unfairly attacked because the people who have the right to define racism decide to apply that label to an action, and especially despite his having a long history of being antagonistic, we have a problem.
If unity is more important than grappling with Kay driving away Planet Eddie by engaging in transphobic rhetoric and not listening to anything any of us were trying to tell her, and never having to apologize for it, while continuing to maintain status, then we have a problem.
The Mix blow up was an echo of that same dynamic. They will be centered before us. They will be tolerated more than us. We will be asked to forgive and move past, but they will not be asked to change.
Moments like these are telling us that our viewpoints aren’t things that can be given space. At the end of the day we’ll always be the ones that just have to get over it. We cannot upset the rest of you or it’ll be a fight and the kind of fight that’ll eat up enough space and focus that the blog will feel like it’s coming apart and ultimately we need to be the ones to drop it.
Because it’ll never be the Mixes or Kays who will stop and reflect that maybe, even if the response was too extreme and feels unfair there may have been a point to it, and maybe there needs to be an acknowledgement that there was a wrong, even if unintentional, and maybe there needs to be a change, and maybe there needs to be more listening, and maybe there needs to be a greater allowance of space even that means they have to give up some of theirs.
And this is true also of the way Kay has sometimes been treated. There have been places there in which I was the one who needed to be better. Our individual status does not invalidate others similarly struggling.
But the difference in response to what’s happening now and what happened when we lost ABL and Planet Eddie isn’t something that is so easily missed for those of who have been here a long time.
That difference does not feel good.
Without reconciliation, without a real grappling with our behaviors, there can be no healing.
No one else has to apologize, or reflect, or change their behaviors when it comes to the subtle disregard for our points of view and our struggles.
We just have to get over it. And the worst part is you don’t even realize that that’s what the ask here really is.
And I want to be clear, Cole I respect the hell out of you. I think you put in far more work than most on these issues. I think you genuinely care. And I know you want to make this space work. I think Anne and WG and Adam do massive and important work here. This isn’t meant to tear down or attack any of that.
But no one here can ask trans people and blacks and jews and the disabled and immigrants and brown people and women, especially of color, to maintain the same level of civility and assumptions of good faith when we’re operating in an environment in which we are being systematically assaulted, erased and eliminated without asking us to do more than you do.
Do not ask those of us with the most burden to carry to carry even more. We are already tasked with bearing our pain in silence, with ignoring any microaggressions and subtle attacks on our communities and on the people who keep those communities safe, with ignoring the subtle and occasionally gross forms of erasure that keep being thrown our way, and to do so without being impolite or judgmental or angry. It is already too much.
You cannot fairly ask that just because the ways in which we are affected are invisible to the rest of you and bevause of that invisibility you are not acting with intention that we should treat them like they do not exist, or that you should not be held to account for them.
We are hurting more than you can understand and we aren’t just afraid, we are being marked for death.
All of you, if you’re going to give us space, you need to be serious about that, and if you’re not, and you really don’t have to, because it’s going to be uncomfortable for you to do so, because it’s going to cause conflict, because we may at times flail and rage and you will sometimes get caught up in that and it often won’t be fair to you, if that’s going to be too much of a distraction for the rest of you, if it’s going to make you too defensive, if it’s going to upset you to the point that it tears the community apart, then we shouldn’t be here.
And that’s very much where I’m ending up after all of this. I’m questioning my continued participation.
Yes, people are doing dumb ass shit and it’d be cool if it stopped. That goes for everyone. But that’s not really the larger problem.
We cannot continue to paper over the way in which whiteness fundamentally distorts what is acceptable here and how it places a far greater burden on those of us who do not recieve it’s protection and the advantages of its defaultness.
We cannot continue to ignore the ways in which that remains invisible to far too many of you.
Not and still have a genuine place in the community. If we’re not willing to have that conversation, if we’re not able to have that conversation, if we’re not able to grow and become better through having that conversation, then I’m not sure what we’re doing here.
If we can’t have fights about important things when we need to, if we strive only for the fights to end, or to not happen, instead of allowing those fights to carve proper space for those of us who need it, if privilege is perpetually allowed to dominate the nature of these conversations, instead of those with it choosing to listen, even when they feel attacked, even when they feel like they’re being treated unfairly, if when we get angry and lash out there is no attempt to see past that to the pain and hurt behind it, to accept the truth of that, to do what can be done to accommodate it, to step back and question whether you are playing a part in that pain, especially when you don’t mean to, then there can be no real space for us.
Even without realizing it you’re all asking us to create that space for you and denying us the same latitude. That has to stop. You aren’t experiencing what we’re experiencing. It can’t all fall on us.
Thank you, Eolirin.
Update: I have added both posts in the sidebar under the heading Everyone Should Read These.
Also, this post will be pinned at the top of the blog until sometime later this evening.
pika
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
Lobo
I may be imperfect in understanding your experience whether it be LGBTQ+, Jews, Blacks, Women, etc., but know I am an accomplice, advocate, and ally. I can also acknowledge your experience and try to listen. I will miss up, just as many of you will in regard to Latino issues. Please give grace and I will try the same. Peace out!
Maxim
1000x all of this. There is a metric ton of white cis privilege on this blog. No, several metric tons.
Michael Bersin
Yes.
H.E.Wolf
Thank you for this guest post, and for your previous one.
I will bear your words in mind, and I will do my best to do better.
Baud
People here are so thoughtful. Thanks, Eolirin.
la caterina
Thank you Eolirin. You are spot on and I appreciate you doing the work to point out what’s wrong. I’ve been trying to express (without a lot of eloquence) on the blog that the white people here, like me, have to do our own anti-racist work and not expect others to do it. White fragility is a big problem among liberals. I have been taught to focus on the effect of my words and actions and not on my intentions. Then when I get called out for something, there’s no “but I didn’t mean to be racist.” There is only, “I’m sorry and I won’t do/say that again.”
edited to correct typo
Nukular Biskits
Yet another great, thought-provoking post when I’m too busy to participate in the discussion.
Do you guys time it that way? ;>)
Virginia
Thank you, Eolirin, for your words. I try to be a good ally and will work to be a better one.
Professor Bigfoot
@Lobo: Doesn’t work that way.
You have to do the work, otherwise you’re really no different from the majority of your demographic.
As the sisters say, “you don’t get a cookie for doing the absolute minimum.”
Professor Bigfoot
Beautifully written, Eolirin; I appreciated it in the previous thread and I’m doubly so here.
I view things like this: I am not qualified to say whether or not I am an “ally” to women. The very best I can say of myself is that I WANT TO BE an ally to women, that I DON’T WANT TO BE one of those “your body my choice” assholes and I TRY HARD… but the only people qualified to decide whether I AM an ally or not are women.
Not me.
Same thing applies.
K-Mo
I’m gonna take a break from commenting but I thought I’d say a few things here:
1. Eolirin is a great and thoughtful commenter and makes a ton of sense here. I agree that it can’t be as simple as giving each other grace in every instance, even if we often do need to apply more grace in a lot of contexts.
2. I don’t see how to do this without establishing that some things are over the line from difference of opinion and into this is wrong and the community can’t abide it.
3. I agree that deference to the afflicted parties is warranted. Those of us not in that category. should listen and listen some more. I don’t agree that being an afflicted party makes one an authority with final say on what is or isn’t off base without any give and take. We had a commenter declare himself an authority on racism who then proceed to spout ugly bigotries. Sorry but it can’t work that way.
Eolirin
Thank you for this WG, and thank you for your tireless dedication to finding productive ways for us to tangibly contribute to efforts to make the world better.
It has always meant a lot to me.
Planetjanet
We need to have uncomfortable conversations here. Maybe some posts should be designated for it, to focus on being a better ally. Those who can’t deal can skip over it. Racism, and other forms of bigotry are the rocket fuel driving the Republicans. It is simply not possible to not see that happening in our faces. The forces that got us here are not gone. One step is to remember to argue the idea, not the person. Another is to truly listen. I am awed by the growth I have seen in this community. I am so happy we have stopped the gendered insults, as one example. We can grow our way through this as well.
WaterGirl
I highly recommend that everyone read both posts before chiming in to say that someone else is doing it wrong.
Chester
Thanks, Eolirin
grumbles
This is one of those posts that reminds me to (try to) be humble.
Thanks, Eloirin.
BellyCat
Do we need a “safe word”?
Aside from that, I have no idea how these good ideas work given the anonymity here and human nature writ large.
Starfish (she/her)
Front paging the dragging of MisterMix and fanning the flames of the stuff we want to stamp out is not actually a path to healing.
I do agree that focus on messaging can be annoying.
I am old enough to remember how much time people spent whining about “Defund the police” instead of focusing on the underlying issue that involved Black folks getting killed by police.
The way front pagers of color were being treated and what some commenters have been doing for a while is different. John nailed it with pointing out that it was Twitter-like behavior where folks just want to fight. That is not an uplifting culture of support. And if a culture is not uplifting to the point that you need to complain about it every day, you go find a more supportive culture
And what is written above *is* taking a side in what went on before.
It is saying that it is not okay for Kay to have issue with the way she is being treated here. It is not okay for people who don’t want famine in Gaza to have people take their concerns genuinely. It is singling out a front pager and a former front pager.
Omnes Omnibus
@BellyCat: How do these good ideas work? We, as individuals, need to make them work. It can’t be imposed by the blog PTB.
Lobo
@Professor Bigfoot: Was that necessary? With all due respect you do not know me and what I have done. I felt it was unnecessarily hostile. My family and I have experienced racism and fought against it. I admit I am imperfect but willing to learn and listen. Please extend charity and grace to me and others that I am trying to extend to you.
prospero
“We cannot continue to paper over the way in which whiteness fundamentally distorts what is acceptable here and how it places a far greater burden on those of us who do not recieve it’s protection and the advantages of its defaultness.
We cannot continue to ignore the ways in which that remains invisible to far too many of you.”
Was that directed at the anonymous commentators here or the FPers? I have read this blog and commented maybe ten times in 10 plus years, and I don’t see the FPers ignoring their whiteness. Heck, they go out of their way to be an ally to everyone. Do they make errors? Sure, we all do. So what? They are basically good people. Never forget that. Just because they are white doesn’t mean they are automatically wrong.
If it is directed at the comment section, why bother? Have you met internet comment sections? My lawd, they are hives of scum and ugliness with rays of sunshine. Enjoy the sunshine and ignore the jerks.
LeftCoastYankee
Thank you for this post Eolirin.
HinTN
@WaterGirl: Your image for today from Albatrossity is PERFECT. We have work to do. I have work to do. We can do this. Thanks to John, Eorlin and WaterGirl.
YY_Sima Qian
I am glad to see it front paged.
Planetjanet
@Lobo: I did not see the Professor’s comment to you as hostile, rather as encouragement to do more. We all have work we need to do on ourselves.
Formerly disgruntled in Oregon
Thank you, Eolirin. This really needed to be said.
rusty
Thank you WG for front paging this. Thank you again Eolirin for taking the time to write such a thoughtful comment. There were also many other comments on the previous thread that were reflective and deeply meaningful. Hopefully this the is beginning of some hard, but necessary conversations where where we all can gain understanding of others and even grow.
Elizabelle
Yes. That was a generous and clear-eyed comment; very truthful, and I appreciate Eolirin’s courage in bringing the points up. Well done.
Ohio Mom
@Omnes Omnibus: Nice to see you back. I missed your calm reason and ethic of optimism.
Maybe it comes from having grown up in a dysfunctional family, but a lot of times in the comment threads I roll my eyes and say to myself, “There she/he goes again.” But I can see (as a member of several of the burdened groups Eorilin lists) how some comments hit some community members especially hard.
I don’t have any solutions, just to practice more compassion, even for the belligerent ones. That belligerence probably comes from some hurt.
sixthdoctor
Thank you, Eolirin.
Eolirin
@BellyCat: We can all be making individual choices to examine our own privilege, to consider what the relative status of the people we’re taking to are, to try to be less defensive when we feel attacked, especially when we’re sitting in a position of privilege, and to apologize when we get it wrong.
If enough of us do that, things will improve. They’ll never be perfect.
TooManyJens
Eolirin, thank you so much for putting in the time on this post.
This is a great point. As a woman, I’ve learned that it’s actually a red flag when men spend a lot of time talking about how feminist they are. Occasionally, those guys are actually putting their money where their mouth is, and while it feels a bit self-congratulatory, I figure they’re trying to model for other men so I tamp down my knee-jerk response. Lots of times, they’re substituting talk for uncomfortable action. And sometimes, too often, guys like that are using their words to cover up something really dark.
So, yeah. Self-declarations of allyship don’t make me trust someone. Actions do.
TBone
I am now taking a knee and raising my fist in the air, in honor of and in gratitude for these words, and am simultaneously on the verge of tears because you already know why.
Dorothy A. Winsor
I appreciate this eloquent reminder, Eolirin. I know I’m blind in places. Over the years, I’ve learned to appreciate it when people call me on that, even when it stings.
lowtechcyclist
@Professor Bigfoot:
Is there something about the demographic of Latino men that we should know?
Mingobat (f/k/a KareninGa)
Bravo (brava?), Eolirin.
Eolirin
@Starfish (she/her): If you’ll notice I give the same space for Kay on these issues where they apply to her as well, and recognize my own failings at times in regard to them.
Our individual status does not negate other people also having status. That applies to her as well.
terraformer
Thank you so much, Eolirin. It’s incredibly important that we listen and support *everyone* who wants a better America (and the world), and are open to their lived experiences.
Like Cole, as a cis-male white who necessarily has zero life experience outside of that – unfortunately relatively comfortable because of it – I know nothing of what others are *really* having to deal with, but I welcome you with a desire to learn and grow, and with open arms, I will always be in your corner.
CatFacts
Thanks for this, Eorlirin, and to John and WG for opening up the discussion. I posted this comment on a dead thread yesterday, but it fits here so I’m taking the liberty of posting it again.
One pattern I have seen recently is that people often seem to be conflating three separate issues.
Number one is the need to protect this space from bad-faith actors who are actually trolls with an agenda to break up the community. This is a good goal!
Number two is the front pagers’ understandable frustration with commenters who aren’t full-on trolls but like to mess with the front pagers just because they can or because they like complaining or something. These folks seem to be the ones the “Curtain” post by WaterGirl is addressed to. A call for empathy about the front pagers’ feelings seems appropriate in this case IMO.
Number three is different from the first two and I think it’s what commenters like Eolirin and Professor Bigfoot and others are referring to. (Eolirin and Professor B and others, feel free to correct me if I’m wrong.) This is that some front pagers and commenters who identify with mainstream-to-the-blog communities (generally white/straight/cis/middle-aged) can FEEL LIKE they’re being trolled or fucked with when commenters from more marginalized groups call them out directly on something that the mainstream-to-the-blog person doesn’t see as an issue but really really is to the commenter from a more marginalized group.
For Issue Number Three, I personally don’t think centering the emotions of front-pagers or irate commenters from the blog’s cultural mainstream is a good solution. It has the (often unintended) effect of telling commenters who don’t identify with that mainstream to shut up because politeness/positivity is more important than listening/learning. To actually listen and build a coalition in this case means that front pagers and commenters from the cultural mainstream would need to sit with their uncomfortable emotions for a while and think about the substance of what’s being said. (Or at least shrug, pie, and wander off to another thread.) That’s HARD to do — I’ve had to do it, too — but necessary to form a true coalition.
The really tough part, of course, is to figure out which of these three issues is happening at any one time.
I don’t have that answer. I do think it’s important to think about WHOSE emotions are being centered here.
Like Eolirin, I’ve definitely noticed what looked to me like very different levels of attention to front-pagers’ feelings when MM left vs. when planet eddie did. I don’t have anything against MM! I don’t know shit about New York politics so I skipped those threads. But I do remember there weren’t many front pagers rallying around Planet Eddie’s feelings when they left after being put through the wringer in the comments. (Lamenting the general shitshow, yes. Publicly telling the commenters who sent eddie dozens of hostile posts every thread to fucking cool it, no.) I don’t have an answer, but I do think it would benefit this community — especially those of us who are mostly in the blog’s cultural mainstream — to think about WHOSE feelings we have the impulse to protect and whose we don’t.
Steve LaBonne
Thank you, Eolirin. Some of us who are not marginalized people have been trying to get this across to others, though lately I frankly have given up. I greatly appreciate that WaterGirl is taking this on board in a serious way, and I hope that other front pagers will also take it seriously.
Cliosfanboy
I immediately thought of ABL, who was great,.
ArchTeryx
THIS. So very much this.
I’ve been marked for death most of my fucking life. From being a kid when autism was considered entirely the fault of a bad mother and they attempted to lock me away in an institution to die, to bullies attempting to kill me, to lack of health insurance nearly killing me, to being marked for death in 2017 by our Grand Old Party’s Aktion T4.
And now here we are once more. They’ll never stop trying to kill me. It’s also why I’m more sympathetic, perhaps, to black folks, trans folks and so on. I’m in pretty much the same boat they are. White, cis, hetero, male, evangelical America has labeled me as a useless eater pretty much my whole life.
Partly why I became a furry. We’ve always been an Island of Misfit Toys, and while the fandom is far less close-knit now than it was in the early days of the late 80s/early 90s, it’s also far less marginalized. So for once, just for once, I am part of a group that doesn’t instantly shove me aside and tell me that I am not worthy of life.
Ksmiami
I’ve gone out of my way to really understand the Heart of Darkness that has been around the American experiment from the start- slavery, genocide, Jim Crow, terror with a healthy dose of imperialism and religious bs as the crowning cherries. Hence I try to listen and provide some level of comfort to the victims and the vulnerable despite my mostly curmudgeonly rebel personality.
flame wars on our side aren’t helpful as the barbarians are here. We have real enemies to fight now.
dc
Thank you, Eorlirin, for the post and to Water Girl for putting it on the front page.
Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony
While I agree we can all and should all try to do better, I keep coming back to my experiences as a lesbian in the LGBT+ movement in the 90s. I worked with some disgusting gay male misogynists to advance our shared rights. I had to. There weren’t enough of us to only let in the intersectional who wanted to be better. We needed more numbers. And that meant I couldn’t be sensitive to the many, many microaggressions. I had to grow very thick skin. That’s how big movements that involve big tents are. Safe communities are always much, much smaller. There has to be a balance between degree of safety in a community and a bigger mix of people. I don’t know what the right mix is for this place. That isn’t my call.
Sister Golden Bear
This. 1000% this. I’ve also been on the verge of checking out. Thank you Eolirin for stating far more eloquently exactly what I’ve been feeling. Thank you WaterGirl for giving the prominence it deserves.
@CatFacts:
I also definitely noticed the difference in treatment. As well as the difference from when Angry Black Lady left. John, I love you’ve created, but those differences are undoubtedly one reason you’re having trouble finding more diverse voices.*
I hope my fellow commenters, front pagers and John all take a long, hard look at the dynamics here — and more to the point, work on changing them.
*ETA: I’ll be honest, I’ve thought about offering to do some guest posts on trans issues — I don’t have anywhere near the bandwidth to be a FPer — but after seeing the way planet Eddie was run off without repercussions nor the special treatment MM got, and the way many of the comments about these issues often seem to be screaming into the void — it didn’t seem either safe nor worth my time.
Professor Bigfoot
@Lobo: I’m sorry if you took it as being unnecessarily hostile, but… you’re simply doing a “not all white men.”
That’s great. But you’re not qualified to say that you’re an ally to Black people or women or LGBTQIA+ folk or Jews or anyone else anymore than I’m qualified to say that I’m an ally to women or LGBTQIA+ or Jewish folk.
I can say that I WANT TO BE that ally. But I’m not going to walk up to women and say, “hey, I’m an ally! Trust me!”
It doesn’t work that way.
[eta I started to delete this; I’m already the “angry black man who always stirs up trouble” here, but it’s a perspective that I believe is important: you may WANT to be an ally, but it’s what you DO that determines that, and only those you want to ally with who can declare that you are, indeed, an ally.]
Balloon Juice Recently
This post answers the question: How can I make the ongoing descent into fascism and oligarchy more about ME?
I’ve read BJ off and on since about 2004, I think when Andrew Sullivan linked to a Cole post. (Remember when Sullivan wasn’t the nutter that he is now? It’s true, you can look it up.). Back then, pretty standard discourse was “Go fuck yourself with a rusty chainsaw.” Now, gosh, I suspect that would draw 1,000 words about depersoning, or whatever.
“When you criticize democrats you attack me as a person of color”. I mean, does anyone not see what a fucking logical train wreck that is?
Might I humbly suggest that people just tell concern troll to fuck right off and stop all of this self-indulgent naval gazing?
This is all just so tiresome and unproductive.
Professor Bigfoot
@prospero: Because this place is worth it.
Most if not the vast majority of the folks here are worth the effort.
I keep bringing up my own experiences as a man, and how grateful I am to the Universe that when I fuck up (and I will, I am human too) there are women who like me and respect me enough that they believe its worth their while to sort my ass out.)
I’m not here and not like this because I hate the folks here– I’m doing this because I really love and respect (most if almost all) the “white folks” who are here.
Steve LaBonne
@Professor Bigfoot: 🎯
TBone
Had to make some Cool As A Cucumber sour cream salad with fresh dill & sweet onion. Cracked fresh black pepper goes in the sour cream dressing also, while the salted cukes & sliced onions sit in the collander to drain. A small tipple of vinegar, and voila! Who’s cutting the onions agan hahaha…
Serving with thawed but fresh frozen Superbowl Chili tonight for ease and convenience.
Carry on.
Professor Bigfoot
@lowtechcyclist: Which Latino group? Cubans? Venezuelans? Costa Ricans? Brazilians?
This is where individual ethnicities come into play; because all Latinos ain’t “Latinos,” IYKWIM.
I refer to Blackness and Black folks as a distinct ethnicity, because our ancestral ethnicites were specifically and brutally stripped away and buried; but we created a new “synthetic ethnicity” born of our collective experiences here in ‘Merika.
It just ain’t the same thing.
TBone
@Professor Bigfoot: I would marry your fine self. If we weren’t both already taken.
VFX Lurker
Thank you for writing this, Eolirin.
Thank you for posting this and perma-linking, WaterGirl.
rikyrah
I am a Black woman
Part of that 92% that is resting.
Main reason why Black people are resting is…
COMPLETE IMMUNITY
COMPLETE IMMUNITY
COMPLETE IMMUNITY
I want for you to fully grasp what that means.
The DOJ has ERASED THE DATABASE OF ROTTEN COPS THAT HAD BEEN COLLECTED
Not just stopped any cases against them.
WIPED OUT THE DATABASE.
They have COMPLETE IMMUNITY TO KILL US AT WILL.
And, those allies in the MSM that would have brought our issues with Law Enforcement, when they arise with us, and it will come..
ARE BEING ELIMINATED FROM THE AIR.
Starfish (she/her)
@Eolirin: What did you observe in the loss of Planet Eddie? My impression was that Planet Eddie made only two posts. Did I not follow the comments on those enough?
There was also a Muslim front pager with the word Red in her name briefly, and then she was gone.
ArchTeryx
@Sister Golden Bear: I hope you don’t leave. It’s damn good to have someone from the trans community here, and considering how many transgendered folks are in my group of friends… and how much I am invested in trying to protect then… you’ve got the most sympathetic audience possible with me.
karen gail
Eolirin: I really appreciate you including women.
I am in my 70’s and have learned the hard way just how hard it can be for an older woman who has walked away from an abusive marriage to be treated as a person; now with GOP, MAGA, and other idiots doing their best to take away any and all rights from females. I find myself once again walking on “eggshells” when it comes to interacting with people, I live in Trump country; if I had any doubts the massive handmade signs posted “proudly” will have dispelled those illusions.
One of the hardest parts about starting over at 62 was everyone felt they had the right to question my life choices. Then because I had to move far away from what had been home I ended up in state I had never been to even for a visit with people who are totally different. The hardest part of coming to terms with was being told it wasn’t “safe” for an older white woman to be friends with those who aren’t white.
Chris Johnson
@Sister Golden Bear: I don’t know why it’s not safe but hoo boy, do I share that assessment. It’s so tempting to try to find something to fix or anything good about it.
I can be silenced by the behavior John initially called out. I can be silenced when it feels like tag-team bad faith. It’s nice when the occasional person finds something nice to say but when the chaos cranks up it does your head in…
See you in the voting-for-Democrats booth :P this place doesn’t feel like the right place to be if you intend to stay on that side.
ArchTeryx
@rikyrah: Straight back to Jim Crow. If anyone understands what that means it’s a black person. Especially those with relatives that survived the Jim Crow years in the South – which isn’t that long in the past at all. Complete impunity for white people to commit any crimes they desired on black people – or scapegoat them for crimes they committed (See: To Kill a Mockingbird) was one of the main features of Jim Crow. Step out of line, get lynched, and the cops would be among the lynchers.
That’s where ACAB came from.
LAC
Thank you again, Eolirin – what you wrote and your subsequent comments are a balm to my soul, as they say. I wrote something a while back, but I think you captured things much better than I could, and I am happy that you are being received like this. Really, this means the world even if it doesn’t change the world.
But I guess one can hope…
TBone
@rikyrah: I will stand in front of bullets if I must. I will lob molotovs. But I can do no harm to airborne, villainous germ warfare (by negligence and/or on purpose). Yet…
PS Climate change is also expanding the battlefields everywhere. Ticks, mice, birds, everything is on the move.
Sister Golden Bear
And while I’m on a rant, I bit my tongue last night, but I gonna say it now. MM telling a commenter that we should get rid of the pie filter because supposedly it creates an echo chamber and that the best way to deal with trolls is confronting them came across as….
ironichypocritical from someone who’s now posting with comments turned off. And also extremely tone-deaf to the experiences of marginalized people like myself. It reeks of privilege. Like we don’t have to deal with real life trolls every fucking day in our offline life. Why should we be the shock troops to deal with online trolls?Yes, I’ve pied people. I do it to help preserve my own sanity, not to close out divergent views. But with all the other massive stressors going on — becoming declared an unperson by the government and having my rights stripped away can do that — I really don’t need trolls adding to that, even if they’re not trolling towards me. Yeah, I can skip their comments, blah, blah, blah. But when some of them take over a thread, that’s kind of hard to do. Frankly the pie filter has been one reason I’ve stay here over the years.
BellaPea
These are all good points and beautiful writing from John, Watergirl, and Eolirin. I know the primary goal of this discussion is to spotlight racism and how insidious it is without people realizing what they are saying on this blog. It’s something that needs to be said.
I am also absolutely devastated and heartbroken at the sheer cruelty and gleeful taunting of women of all colors that has been exhibited and accepted publicly since Trump entered politics. It was always there, but now it is magnified thousands of times. My husband keeps saying “I’m not one of those guys” and I tell him it still matters because no one is taking his rights away. Women are dying in emergency rooms, open talk about rape is now acceptable, credibly accused sex offenders are being appointed to important cabinet positions (and one of them serving as president, for heaven’s sake). I guess I was naive to think we had moved past this in the last 50 years, but here we are again and it’s even worse.
Layer8Problem
@Eolirin: Thank you for the time and thought that went into your comment. I’m on the same page.
Deputinize Eurasia from the Kuriles to St Petersburg
I’m a white dude of a certain age with a fuckton of privilege who occasionally is blinded by my own cultural heritage and markers. Like Popeye, I am what I am, and never see myself was some great crusading ally.
At the same time, I’ll try to make leave the world a better place than the one I came into through my votes and my public statements. Choosing empathy over oppression works every time.
Starfish (she/her)
@Sister Golden Bear: I think that there have been a lot of front pagers that the community has run off, and that may be why no one is volunteering to be a front pager because ultimately volunteering to be a front pager means giving up the community and being elsewhere, which may be a good thing given how things have gone.
There are some ongoing cultural practices that create Balloon Juice identity that are not great. For example, there is a constant need to piss on LGM. Why? There are hardly any bloggers left. Let’s piss on the ones that are left. Can someone point out some blogs that they like instead of rallying around pissing on LGM.
Someone asked for recommendations of bloggers the other day, and a lot of really talented diverse writers are just not writing for $0 anymore because that business model is unsustainable.
ArchTeryx
@Sister Golden Bear: That was one of the dumbest suggestions I ever saw posted to this blog. Get rid of the pie filter?! That basically means this place is open season for trolls, and right now they are fucking everywhere on the Internet. They’re spreading like a plague from their multiple social media havens. Unless Cole and the frontpagers are willing to become full time moderators, the pie filter’s the only thing stopping this place from turning into just another Xhitter or Facebook.
The fascists want to silence all opposing voices. Everywhere. Mix them with the Russian troll farms, and the Right’s voice is deafening. The Mighty Wurlitzer, as it used to be called. I come here as a haven from that.
Layer8Problem
@Sister Golden Bear: I save the pie filter for rhetorical bomb-throwers, drive-by pot-stirrers, and content-minimal posters. The pie filter isn’t a bloody banhammer and I don’t have the patience of Baud or Omnes.
Sister Golden Bear
BTW, I’m gonna be offline for a bit, but I will read, and reply if appropriate, later on.
Kirk
@Professor Bigfoot: One of Spider Robinson’s Callahan books had a line that has stuck with me.
There is no absolution without a solution. Your solution might not work but you damn well better be trying to bring it.
I’ve tried. I’ve failed a few times – heck, a lot more often than I’ve succeeded, but I’ve tried to be part of the solution.
Elizabelle
@ArchTeryx:
@Sister Golden Bear: Thank you both! The pie filter can be a thing of beauty, and sanity. Not like you cannot toggle to see what said pastry of the week is opining on.
Thank you Cleek. Wherever you are.
Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony
@Elizabelle: I miss Cleek.
Elizabelle
@Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony: Yes. Definitely a good one.
And kudos to Avalune for the illustrations. I don’t see Sea Lion chow enough, though.
Sure Lurkalot
@Sister Golden Bear:
I don’t know, SGB, I was still mostly a lurker when you wrote very specifically about your transition surgery in the comments and my eyes were definitely opened by your words, to who you are, who are trans. Previously, I had only known a few supportive parents whose kids were trans, and not to discount my conversations with them, but your voice has tremendous power.
Still, I understand and respect your reticence.
bluefoot
@ArchTeryx: and it’s not just out-and-out crimes against Black people. It’s refusing to rent to a Black person, or hiring them, or not responding to service calls when something is broken, or refusing to fix their car, or ignoring their health issues, or hassling them as they walk on the sidewalk, or terrorize young kids when they’re playing outside, or…..
I think a lot of privileged folk don’t understand it touches every part of life.
(all the things I listed above have happened to me because of the color of my skin)
Tim C.
@Cliosfanboy: I follow her on Blue Sky. Still great.
As for other stuff, Yes, I as a white dude roughly in the same demographic as the Blogfather here have had to adjust and learn to do better with some people. My acceptance of those groups is unconditional and I want to do no harm. But that doesn’t mean I’m not clumsy and have tried to do better. In general I avoid the use of the word “ally” as I don’t think I’m good enough in my work and it’s not really up to me to apply that label.
We are in this together.
TBone
Today’s Waltons rerun episode is about the book burnings and how Americans found out about what the Nazis were doing. John Boy is LIVID.
German U.S. citizens living nearby Waltons Mountain being attacked also too.
suzanne
While we are on the topic of the pie filter, I still would love to see the development of a “reverse pie filter”, to block some commenters from seeing one’s comments. I am feeling unsafe as there is a commenter who is attempting to run me out of here, with surveillance tactics and intimidation.
Belafon
Always asking yourself “Am I actually doing that, too?” is not a bad habit. I’m assuming that most of us here have core beliefs that include wanting to help people, so asking ourselves if we need to change in some way is not going to suddenly make us evil. And sometimes, occasionally, the answer to the question is “No, I’m not doing that because I learned not to do that before.”
That’s why I find it easy when someone says “White guys are ______” I can be like “yep” even if that particular instance I actively avoid because I learned to be better.
Dougboy
@Steve LaBonne: Maybe I haven’t been paying careful attention, but it seems you comment much less frequently than in years past. I miss your thoughtful (and snarky!) contributions, and I’m fairly certain that we are geographically close as well (I’m in SW Ohio, but I do not expect you to reveal your location if you don’t feel comfortable.)
TBone
@Ksmiami: thank you for that reference, it brought back many memories…
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heart_of_Darkness
Blue Galangal
Thank you. I am a white woman with a lot of privilege. I went through a diversity training our university offered that was effective even for those of us who were sitting in the back with our arms folded. I can’t tell you what resonated for other people but what resonated for me was this: whenever you think to yourself, “Not me! I’m not like that” (that is, “not all white people…”) that is coming from a place inside you that feels attacked.
And one thing you can do is set aside why you feel attacked at that moment and reflect that that *feeling* of discomfort is coming from a place of pain inside you. That *feeling* of discomfort is what is needed to grow.
To shut up for five minutes and think about why you feel attacked.
Because if you listen to what the other person is saying, *it’s not about you.* It’s often times our own privilege (whatever that may be) that makes us think it’s about us and that centers us *all the time*.
Sometimes we need to shut up and listen. And we need to live with and reflect on our own discomfort and we need to let ourselves feel that, because that’s how we grow.
And so I made a habit of watching myself in those spaces, like ABL’s Twitter back in the day, and working on *myself* when I felt the urge to respond, “But *I’m* not like that! Not *me*!”
I was shocked at how often I wanted to defend myself and how hard it was to sit with it and reflect on what the other person was actually saying instead. But it is a lot easier now, and now the harder part is explaining the process to other people because I am not that trainer and I am old and I do not have all the right words at my command.
But I know that for me, identifying that the defensiveness I felt was a source of pain and a potential source of growth was something that really worked for me for learning to hear the other person.
karen gail
@BellaPea: I “knew” that we hadn’t really moved forward in the last 50 years even though it looked like we had. I discovered firsthand that calling police because a woman was being beaten did nothing. (Police didn’t respond until I reported that beater had just thrown male child out of third story window.)
I big sistered girls who when they reported being raped the first question out of law enforcement was “what were you wearing?” or “what did you do to provoke him?”
The same as when I sought help for what I realized was abusive behavior; the state I lived in had no shelters or places a woman could go unless she lived in city. It was suggested I go to police but they only act if you are beaten badly enough to end up in hospital.
So I have known that nothing has changed since the 60’s when it comes to the treatment of women.
OCD
Thank you, Eolirin.
Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony
@suzanne: That’s terrible!
Kirk
In the personal put up or shut up zone, (vagueness intentional)
These days I’m the safety officer at my warehouse. As in administration level indirect (doesn’t move the product, supports moving the product) position who is responsible for not just identifying risks and hazards but developing and enforcing execution of the plans to reduce those risks and hazards.
A significant issue right now is accountability. Two fold: not holding administration accountable, and inequitable accountability of non-administration positions. Some of it’s racism and some of it’s misogyny and some of it’s productivity tunnel vision. I have a huge advantage in that my employer (not Costco) is still formally and strongly supportive of DEIB. But every time I push – and I do – I run the risk of ‘difficulty working with others’ performance notes in my record. It’s bitten me more than once so that risk is not just real but experienced.
I like to think I’m part of the solution; just not as much or as effective as I’d like.
Oh – white, male, straight (what I think the kids call cis het), old. There are valid trust concerns from the associates that make all the above harder.
Fair Economist
I dunno. I’m looking at some of the cited shitstorms, and my reaction is still “people need to be more civil”. In terms of MM and planet eddie, my impression is that MM left because of personal attacks and planet eddie left because their threads were degenerating, so the issues are somewhat different. Is this wrong?
MagdaInBlack
@suzanne: What the ??!. Good lord, I’m sorry this is happening.
TBone
@suzanne: you came to my aid when I most needed it here. How can I help?
Fair Economist
@suzanne:
That’s a pretty standard tool on social media.
ArchTeryx
@bluefoot: I’ve experienced some of that too. I do have white skin and thus some limited amount of white privilege, but the moment they figure out I have a mental disability… hoo boy. Harassment by cops, refusal to fix my car, followed by security, constant discrimination in hiring. They even drummed me out of a career in medical research over ableism. And as above, they’ve been trying to kill me – either directly or indirectly – my whole life. It makes me a WHOLE lot more sympathetic, and able to understand, what “racial profiling” really means. It’s not all overt, as you say. There’s plenty of covert ways of racism rearing its ugly head. And how Barack Obama and Kamala Harris were treated is exactly an example of that.
Balloon Juice Recently
These discussions are approaching late stage “Shakespeare’s Sister” level of self-importance.
I mean, comment one was “I am an ally” then comes the right-think re-education brigade: “Um no, you are NOT an ally. You don’t get to decide if you are an ally. Only Tony Morrison’s landscaper gets to decide who is an ally.”
Ya’ll need to step back and touch a lot of grass.
Phylllis
This. I have a few folks pied, and have an idea some have me pied as well. Everyone says something stupid on occasion, but when a commenter demonstrates in practically every interaction that they’re an asshole, I don’t want to even read that nonsense.
Bruce K in ATH-GR
@karen gail: Something I wish could be pummeled through the skull of the average White Dude (or heck, the average Dude in general) is that any woman he encounters pretty much has to consider him a potential threat until she has evidence to her satisfaction that he’s safe to be around. It took me a very long time to learn that lesson (exacerbated by the fact that when I was young, I was very small, and my body self-image was that of a small person long after I’d grown to nearly six feet tall). And a lot of Dudes seem to have never considered that aspect of interpersonal relations.
suzanne
@TBone: I don’t know if there’s a way to help. I am sad about it.
TBone
Dick jokes trigger finger itchy again.
Melancholy Jaques
@Professor Bigfoot:
I have been urging everyone to avoid using Latino & Hispanic for years. And not because I am someone smarter or better, but because the people I’ve met over the last thirty years or so – in & out of political activity – whose ancestry comes from countries where Spanish is the most common language have all told me that they do not like those terms & prefer to be referred to, if at all, by the country from which they come, or maybe not by any collective ethnic designation.
As a generic white guy from the suburbs of Cleveland, I do plead for mercy. We often blunder without knowing & sometimes need a lesson. I know it’s a burden you didn’t ask for, but could you try to make it firm, but gentle.
TBone
@suzanne: your words in the past knocked me upside the head about my own self worth. PLEASE to remember yours! Fucking priceless.
And, in the words of my therapist:
Fair Economist
@rikyrah:
This is the stuff that needs to be on the media. Which, of course, is why they’re firing the people who want to talk about it.
Ohio Mom
@Balloon Juice Recently: I wonder if anyone besides me got the Shakespeare’s Sister reference.
suzanne
@TBone: My inner grump-ass is not so inner these days.
Eolirin
@Blue Galangal: Thank you for this, this is actually very much at the core of what I’m trying to say.
The difference between the marginalized and the privileged, in this context, is that only the privileged have that dynamic presented to them as a choice.
When we’re marginalized and we feel under attack we have to stay very quiet and very still and not draw further attention to ourselves. We are expected to be gracious about intentions regardless of consequences, to have to erase our pain, our discomforts, because the outcome of any conflict will fall most heavily on us, we will always be the ones to suffer the consequences regardless of our role in circumstances, or because if we need support and we make the people who can give it too uncomfortable they will turn away from it, and from us.
We don’t get to choose to sit in discomfort to grow, we have to sit in discomfort to survive.
In some ways that makes it easier to learn how to do though. And so I have a tremendous amount of respect for those of you who put in that work for no other reason than that you want to be better. It is painful and difficult, and I thank you for it
I should also note the mere fact that we’re having this conversation here, that we’re allowed to have this conversation here, is why this place is in fact special.
Steve LaBonne
@Dougboy: Medina, OH. And I just don’t feel like spending a lot of time here lately. Too many arguments that go around and around in circles, which is not what a productive argument looks like.
sentient ai from the future
@Sister Golden Bear: i had missed that comment, but it’s enough to distance me further from the fence.
approximately 50% of the bad faith trolls at the parents-of-trans-kids place i spend other online time at will immediately respond to a ban with something about “echo chamber” and it’s enough to ensure that person never comments there again.
comments about “echo chambers” are prima facie bad faith arguments IMO because they are based in multiple sources of privilege. people curate their interactions to avoid harm to themselves, and sometimes they do so in a way that is maladaptive, but that is fundamentally different from keeping away sources of harm. if you can’t understand someone well enough to notice those subtle differences you have no grounds to pass judgement.
sentient ai from the future
@Balloon Juice Recently: i cordially invite you to suck a fart out of my asshole.
Kirk
@Melancholy Jaques: huh – hadn’t thought about that.
Thank you. Adding to my knowledge base.
suzanne
@sentient ai from the future:
The thing that bothers me about this the most is…. who cares? Why does anyone care about what someone else reads or not? (For whatever reason, I might add.) Worry about oneself, mind one’s own damn business.
Chris Johnson
@suzanne: Probably worth mentioning that I would use the hell out of such an anti-pie filter, for not exactly the same but similar reasons. Not interested in litigating the details of them, that’s kind of the point.
Earlier today I unpied every name I’d had on the pie list, and woof. Bluesky’s nuclear block is great for this sort of thing. It’s like the Monty Python ‘How Not To Be Seen’. thus, we demonstrate why you would not wish to be seen!
I’m now imagining going into a thread, not-to-be-seening everybody in the thread, and then writing poetry or something :D
TBone
@suzanne: good. Let it all hang out sometimes. Holding that shit in alla time causes all sorts of unnecessary trouble!
I take my bra off all the time! Over the shoulder
boulderbolder holder!sentient ai from the future
@suzanne: it’s a direct appeal to ego. someone who has a big ego about their open mindedness is going to potentially fall for it. it is also suggestive in certain ways about the personality of the person making the accusation.
someone who’s familiar with popper’s paradox of tolerance (formally or informally) will not.
zhena gogolia
@Nukular Biskits: Same here!
Thanks for frontpaging this, WG.
John S.
@Starfish (she/her):
Well said.
Kirk
@Balloon Juice Recently:
Crock of shit. Tony Morrison’s groundskeeper doesn’t decide, it’s the TARGET OF THE REMARK that decides.
Pretty standard fare in hostile workplace challenges (see my mention of my job above) is that the “alleged” attacker in abuse does not set the rule of whether it is an attack. The victim’s voice matters a lot. If you think you’re splitting the difference you’re probably not.
Professor Bigfoot
@Kirk: I just finished a re-read of Weber’s “Safehold” series (I know, I know, but it’s really tasty popcorn) and one recurring theme is “all you can do is all you can do.”
One does what one can.
Steve Finlay
A very large part of white male privilege, which I have, consists of dogs that don’t bark in the night time — or in the daytime, or anytime, anywhere. We DON’T have to plan ahead for what to say or how to stay alive every time we walk past a parked police car. We DON’T think about whether our clothing will attract a predator every time we walk past a coffee shop patio. We DON’T see the guy behind the counter at the corner store trying to covertly watch us in case we steal something. We DON’T get questioned by a bank teller if we are depositing cash. I could fill a book with sentences like these.
Like everyone in the story except Sherlock Holmes, we usually do not notice the dog not barking, nor why it is important. I am constantly trying to sharpen my ability to hear those non-barking dogs, and trying to get better at understanding how my words will sound to everyone who DOES get barked at by those dogs, 20 or 200 times a day, 365 days a year.
UncleEbeneezer
Thanks for this post Eolirin, very well said, and to WG for front-paging it.
And thank you for connecting the dots between ABL, PlanetEddie and the Biden fiasco, because to me they were all the examples of the same problem: the refusal of people-of-privilege (mostly white) to dial shit back when marginalized people are literally begging them to do so.
The thing about the Biden fiasco that still bothers me isn’t really about him or Kamala or the difficult situation we were in and the need to debate it. It’s the fact that at the time I saw so many Black and LGBTQ voices here literally begging us to cut the bullshit and unite to protect them from Trump. Their lives and rights were on the line so no, it was not the time for this bullshit. Same goes for the endless Genocide/Gaza smears of Biden/Harris. Marginalized voices begged us to cut that shit out and prioritize their lives, rights, dignity, humanity from Trump. But so many people here either ignored them, waved them off or responded indignantly with “pro-Genocide” accusations. Seeing these same people who had no interest in unity then, suddenly demanding unity for the sake of the feelings of a cis/het/white/male front-pager just highlighted what (and who) really matters to them. And it made it quite clear that unity is for white feelings, but not for actually protecting marginalized people when we had our biggest chance.
It showed that white rage (about Dems) is always justified and angry rants are welcome, but the minute Black/PoC/LGBTQ People express anger over the way that that white rage puts their lives at risk everyone tells them to shut up, move on, unite etc.
Everyone is entitled to champion whatever causes they believe in. But at some point, when the marginalized people are telling you that your advocacy is putting their lives/freedoms at risk, the right thing to do is take a seat. I’ve had to do this many times. It stings. It’s embarrassing. But you move forward with far greater respect from members of marginalized communities for being willing to listen to them and stand with them even when that means doing the hardest thing for people of privilege: stepping back and shutting up.
Lobo
@Professor Bigfoot: Okay, I am trying to be an ally, etc, etc. I would hope you could see the intent rather than focus on the exact words. Instead of hostile, I should of used the word critical.Please read my initial words again, I can acknowledge but can never understand those different experiences. All I can do is listen and learn with charity and grace.
And yes, I refer to myself as Latino, as well as Mexican-American, Hispanic, etc. Who am I? Identity can sometimes be crazy.
Man, I was trying to be supportive but to have my attempt read in bad faith. I was thinking of posting from a Latino viewpoint, but now….
John S.
@suzanne:
I’m sorry that is happening to you. Nobody deserves to be treated that way.
zhena gogolia
@Sister Golden Bear: Exactly.
siddhartha
That defensiveness about decentering whiteness–and the white privilege of making that project be about this is or that specific white person–is why I post and NEVER look at anyone else’s comment that may respond to what I wrote. I simply cannot take that injury. I will not take that injury for my day to day survival. (And I would ask white people to refrain from defining bigotry and mocking others’ experience and expertise when a woman of color is trying to show what is invisible).
As for calls for unity and well-intendedness, I go back to James Baldwin: “I can’t believe what you say because I see what you do.” Kay was rewarded and lionized as a valued commenter AFTER what happened with Planet Eddie and AFTER numerous people of color commented. In fact, that was the first time I ever posted, when I witnessed what happened to Planet Eddie. And what was done to Planet Eddie was done AFTER what had already been done to ABL who we were PRIVILEGED to have in our midst.
What is it about black women and women of color claiming expertise on issues that affect them and which they have dedicated their whole lives to fighting at costs that are completely unimaginable to many commentators here that rubs white people here the wrong way? Are we being “uppity”? Asking for special treatment? Being too confrontational?
White people have to be ready to break things, especially their own comfort. Because that comfort is what has gotten us here. It’s negative peace, not justice (to gloss MLK).
artem1s
Thanks for this post. especially this.
“despite having the ear of no one who could implement their demands for how Democrats need to talk”
stacib
@TBone: I’m with you. I’ve been MIA around the blog for weeks for varied reasons, but I’m so glad I checked in today to see this post.
Professor Bigfoot
@suzanne: THAT is just straight unacceptable.
I for one appreciate your voice, and whoever that person is needs to get sorted out.*
(*alternately, they can get fucked, as the Blogfather would put it)
suzanne
@sentient ai from the future:
Right. It’s an implication of weakness or a lack of intelligence.
FWIW, I only have a narrow slice of disagreement with Eolirin’s important and excellent message, which is about discussion of messaging, image, etc. being upsetting. I think those are important topics, because I think all of us are in fact messagers and persuaders, whether or not we think of ourselves as such. But, since it causes distress, IMO discussion of it can be limited to specific threads in which that is the topic, and I’ll confine it there. And then those who don’t want to discuss that can skip the thread — I skip plenty.
wenchacha
Thank you Eolirin, for your gracious honesty.
I just saw reports of 3 suicides by fired HHS employees. I don’t know if this one in Syracuse NY was one of those, or another. Marginalized people, people at risk because of what they represent to others, are in trouble, NOW.
https://www.syracuse.com/news/2025/01/va-patient-died-by-suicide-at-top-of-hospitals-garage-in-syracuse.html
JustJack from bluesky:
“On the HHS Leadership call today: 1 employee from CMS (Center for Medicare/Medicaid Service) and 2 employees from SSA (Social Security Administration) have died by suicide after their firing.”
I hope I can be an ally. I sometimes feel stung by things which I know are not directed at me. And I aim to do better when I know better. I fear what happens when push comes to shove, and we are so close.
Professor Bigfoot
@ArchTeryx: This is a core concept— whoever you are, eventually the Nazis will get around to you,* too.
(*OBVIOUSLY NOT YOU!! But in general it’s the source of a lot of my great frustration— there are too many Americans who don’t understand that they too will become targets, sooner or later, ‘cause it’s inherent in the Nazism)
Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony
@Starfish (she/her):
I did both. That’s because I am in the Midwest and have GOP family and could see the huge, ugly backlash that phase was generating. It brought out primal fear in white people like I have never seen. It shut down the ability of some people I know to focus on the issues and support police reform. It was disastrously counterproductive. That perspective may not always be welcome but it is real. Plus, because I am in St. Louis, I know how bad police reform was needed and how awful our cops are. But even though I’m white and could give very specific examples of why it is a problem, white people only heard ‘They want to take away all police protection’ because of that phrase.
Josie
@Blue Galangal:
You explained it very well. As a fellow old person, I can definitely relate to the experience you describe of feeling attacked and defensive. I have had to stop and consider carefully what was actually being said and work to change my attitude. It is not easy, but having three grown sons who sometimes hold my feet to the fire helps.;-)
Professor Bigfoot
@Balloon Juice Recently: Thank you for expressing the other side of that
That says there’s no need for members of the dominant demographic to do any WORK to be considered an ally to those marginalized by that dominant demographic, no, just let them stand up and declare themselves “allies” absent any evidence.
Yeah, because we need to give certain people “the benefit of the doubt,” amirite?
Kirk
One thing that took me a long time – probably too long – to decide was:
If I see a race/gender abuse situation, should I intervene. On the one hand, I at least bear witness that I’m seeing it even if I don’t get it to stop. On the other hand there’s a reason police hate domestic abuse calls even if they’re “good cops” – the proportion of time the victim turns on the rescuers is large.
In the end I decided I’d rather suffer for trying to make the world a better place. King’s mockery of moderate white men justifiably stings me still.
stacib
@Cliosfanboy: Yup, I was here then, and it was the reason I left for years. The sting of how she was treated after she was supposedly “valued” was too much to bear from a “liberal” blog.
bluefoot
@ArchTeryx: The extent to which disabled people (of any type) are treated as unpersons blows my mind. I am not sure I appreciated the extent until COVID, when people were openly saying disabled people should be left to die.
Quaker in a Basement
[applauds]
Aymp
I’ve been a lurker here since forever. And I am glad to see the FPers and commenters highlighting the struggles and working for a solution. I am glad Eolirin spoke up and put it so clearly. This post is mostly to highlight another comment here that I thought was really valuable, and didn’t get much attention.
@CatFacts: I love your point about looking at whose feelings are being prioritized.
sentient ai from the future
@suzanne: i get where you’re coming from about those being important topics, but we are not the ones doing the research that would make us informed commenters about it, neither on the front end to test potential messaging, nor on the back end with polling to see the public’s response.
so overwhelmingly, the “messaging” critique serves more as a more convenient/acceptable way of packaging “this is my arbitrary opinion/bias” in a forum that would rightly call it out if it were portrayed in such a manner.
Professor Bigfoot
@Melancholy Jaques: Oh, yeah, Jaques, we cool.
There’s a difference between those who think about these things and those who just bull ahead, drunk on their privilege.
And I’m looking forward to the NEO meetup, if we can arrange it— holy moly, it feels almost springlike ‘round here right now.
ALMOST. ;)
Professor Bigfoot
@TBone: You, Suzanne, and quite a few other commenters I consider to be the “badass bitches” I bow down to.
Betty Cracker, there’s another badass bitch; I adore the woman.
BE FIERCE, ladies. I believe in my soul that if the Republic is to be saved, it will be you who save it.
Professor Bigfoot
@suzanne: Git ‘em. <raises fist>
Belafon
@Lobo:
You know, you could read the post at the top once again and not take offense at being called out, however aggressively. Your words were, at best, clumsy.
As for how harsh some of the replies are, think about this: While you’re dealing with a negative reaction to a comic, blacks are getting fired from their jobs and replaced with mediocre white guys (see the JCOS), trans people are having their passports rewritten with their birth sex, and gay government workers are seeing the possibility of being fired for commenting on a support group chat. Sometimes, you just gotta notice that you’re life didn’t change by an online challenge.
AM in NC
Thank you. Very well said. Thank you.
Scott P.
And yet folks here will complain about “Fox News brain”
chemiclord
It also doesn’t help when it comes on the backs of a very loud accelerationist left that routinely loves to get extremely loud at times like this.
It can make even good faith arguments look bad.
Tim C.
@Sister Golden Bear: For what it’s worth, your explanations of your journey being trans has been an influence on how I think and act on the matter.
You are fighting the good fight.
Professor Bigfoot
@Eolirin:
THIS, all of this. I rail at what see because I believe this joint is special, that it’s entirely worthwhile to tilt at that windmill because there are people here I’ve come to care about.
If I didn’t like and respect most of the folk of the Jackaltariat, I’d have walked long ago.
UncleEbeneezer
@siddhartha: Thanks for sharing this. One thing that a lot of people seem to miss here (not you, to be clear) is that ABL and PlanetEddie got harassed for challenging White/Cis Supremacy in this space. Whereas Kay and MM got pushback for upholding/protecting those things.
Blue Galangal
@Eolirin: Thank you for taking the time and doing the work to reframe this in a way that helps me understand better. I really appreciate it because I still have so much work to do. I do get to make that choice, and that’s privilege.
Like other commenters, one of the other things I am explicitly trying to be conscious of and work on is speaking up where I have privilege to address when people are being silenced or undermined. That’s when I wish I had more privilege, ha ha ha (like tenured faculty instead of at-will staff!).
Lobo
@Belafon:
And Latinos are not feeling any of those things? It is because I know those Nazis won’t stop, I will be trying my best, however, imperfectly. You can either accept my open hand or not. I don’t know what else to say. Peace.
ArchTeryx
@bluefoot: Yeah. It’s the only reason I’ve ever come up with why so many job interviews ended in failure, despite my career counselors saying my interview technique was nearly flawless. They detected, probably in my body language, affect, or something subconscious that I was ND, and the MOMENT they realized that, the doors slammed in my face.
Even my current job – the main interviewer vetoed me for reasons he could not spell out. His boss overruled him because, frankly, there were more jobs than applicants. And he still tried to freeze me out.
He later came clean to me and admitted this, and his attitude toward me changed drastically when he realized I was here to work my ass off. He did that because he was an analyst, not a manager. Managers are taught by HR from the moment they are promoted the code of omerta, so they don’t say anything that could get a discrimination lawsuit filed against them. If HR knew what he told me, they’d absolutely be having kitten litters.
And you know who the absolute worse actors were when it came to bigotry against me?
People that either had disabled kids, or nonprofits that worked with the disabled. The very people who dealt with disabled people on a daily basis were the most ableist. Think about THAT one for a moment.
Belafon
@Lobo: Those of us not in those categories are trying. But your reply to being called out should have been along the lines of “I did a poor job of communicating my intention, I will need to work on that.” I often complain that English is my worst language, and it’s the only one I know well.
Professor Bigfoot
@Lobo: This is part of the problem.
I am not being hostile to you, I am simply telling directly how I see you responding.
To quote James Baldwin, “I don’t believe what you say because I see what you do.”
So here’s a non-apology apology— I’m sorry you feel attacked, and I hope one day you get over it.
Edited to add— okay, that was pretty fucking snide, and I apologize.
But still the idea that for you to ally with marginalized people they have to be sufficiently nice to you is pretty much the opposite of actually trying to be an ally.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Balloon Juice Recently
I take it that the well-meaning but untrained dog in this analogy is John Cole? Okay.
Lobo – you’re wasting your time engaging with these people. Just pie them and move on. They suffer from main character syndrome and they live by devouring your good will and openness. THEY are not YOUR allies.
Kristine
Thank you, Eolirin.
Professor Bigfoot
@Balloon Juice Recently: Kiss our ass or we’ll join the Klan!!
LMAO
Ohio Mom
@ArchTeryx: “The very people who dealt with disabled people on a daily basis were the most ableist.”
Oh god, you just described the last two-three months of Ohio Family’s experience with Ohio Son’s job program (in its last day today because, ableism).
There is something about autism people can not grok and they can’t see they can’t grok it.
I feel seen, thank you.
Belafon
@Professor Bigfoot: LOL
John S.
@Balloon Juice Recently:
Nice to see that these WaterGirl threads asking people for grace and compassion are working as intended.
A perfectly compassionate response to Lobo. It should be front-paged.
Lobo
@Belafon:
Are we really arguing about interpretation when the house is burning down? I stand by my words. I respect what you and others have said and always interpreted in the best possible way. I sometimes think this can be harsh place that drives those who are sympathetic away. I don’t wish argue anymore. Eolirin, sorry for this discussion about my “words weren’t exactly as others needed them to be”, I was trying to do the right thing and be supportive. Keep hanging in there. I will stop right here so that hopefully the discussion can keep as positive as possible. Peace.
PJ
@TooManyJens:
Every time, in real life, I have heard a man describe himself as a feminist, it was because he was trying to get into the pants of the woman he was talking to.
TBone
@Professor Bigfoot: that’s why my dick jokes trigger finger was itchy! Hubby today accused me (jokingly!) of being in the He Man Hater Club WHILE I am making homemade cheese sauce from a bechamel with a clove-studded onion and all sorts of CHEESE (don’t forget the dry mustard) for a mac-N-cheese casserole tomorrow or some other day soon FOR HIS BELLY.
Laughter is a deescalator!
Antonius
Valuable thoughts. As 20+ year lurker who’s commented maybe 20 times, one of things I like about the blog is the diversity of voices I find here, posting for free, when they could all absolutely find better things to do. I guess some have. I don’t lurk in the comments much, so I’ve missed how everyone has evidently been tearing chunks out of each other, even though I think the last time I posted was tearing a few other people a new one when they were giving Adam grief about his Ukraine posts, which, you know, he posts for free.
I’ve lived my life in the almost-White of passing, only occasionally running into White people who singled out Puerto Ricans for special animosity unknowingly in my White-looking presence, and man, was it ugly. I would say “I can only imagine” how it is for folks who don’t get to pass for White, but I’d be lying — I can’t. I will say this: intentions are not behavior, and confusing the two on a personal level goes a long way toward feeling that others may be overreacting. Better to examine one’s own behavior from a different pair of shoes, as hard as they may be to slip on.
Ohio Mom
@Professor Bigfoot: The problem is, it’s pretty hard to see what people are doing IRL when it’s a comment thread. Are their actions actions of an ally, we don’t know.
We only have each other’s words that we are trying to be good allies because we have no proof. Just some hastily typed words. And not everyone is a good or clear writer.
There is a saying in the disability services world, Assume competence.
Maybe we ought to assume decency.
Starfish (she/her)
@Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony: See, this type of perspective and nuance is very important. There are people who are seeing local things on the ground where they are, and it is important to highlight the context that stuff is happening in.
Under the Obama administration, there was an effort called “Reimagine policing” that was trying to reform things in a more orderly fashion. With all the high profile incidents of police murdering folks, the people working to “reimagine policing” were overcome by the hardcore police abolitionists.
I had never been exposed to hardcore police abolitionists, but there was one in Denver. Elizabeth Epps would go bail people out when their bails were small. She had all the courthouses in her phone labeled by the name of the county followed by the word Cage in her phone.
Usually, these folks organize the Mother’s Day and Father’s Day bail outs.
Epps was elected to a state office, but she was reprimanded for being disorderly, and the state Democrats organized against her to get some white dude elected to whatever her seat was.
NightSky
Thanks to BJ for this post and the comments. I am grateful for the chance to listen here to people with different lived experiences and levels/types of privilege. There is (luckily for me) much I have not personally experienced or witnessed, so my intentions can be good but my understanding is probably sort of “academic” and superficial at times. I have not had to walk the walk of some of our commenters and writers. I find the personal stories and heartfelt comments at BJ very compelling and helpful as I try to see and understand things I am likely missing, the realities that others must navigate, and how I could be a more effective advocate and partner in fighting hate and fear and oppression. It’s not the job of others to educate me, of course, and I might feel a bit of bite in your schooling some of us at times, but I appreciate your willingness to share bits of your lived experience, and I am trying to make the most of this opportunity to learn from you at BJ. I have not found a lot of places where such conversations (and opportunities to learn) take place.
Albatrossity
Thanks, sincerely. Sometimes the hardest lessons are the ones we need the most. It is a hard and ongoing lesson for this cis het white guy to come to grips with the privilege that always been there. This election brought home to me the reality that cis het white people really really really failed, and that failure indeed is now endangering many individuals, and many communities. I can’t change that reality, but I can continue to try to change myself.
PJ
Thank you, Eolirin, for saying this so eloquently, and thank you, WaterGirl, for making this a post.
Not everyone will get the message – you can see examples of that in some of the comments to this very post – but people who are trying will.
Eolirin
@John S.: I feel she rather entirely missed my point, continued to engage in exactly the thing I am desperately begging people not to do, and fundamentally distorted what I’m saying about Kay.
I am happy to be more explicit; I’ve fucked up in my responses to how Kay was reacting to attacks on abortion rights, even if I think I broadly hold the same position as her on their importance. Her lack of privilege as a woman deserves the same respect as my lack of privilege as a trans person, as a queer person, as a Jew, as a person with a chronic and crippling set of disabilities, as much as it does for all the people here who are black, or of various non-white ethnicities. I did not provide the space I should while she was grieving have and that was wrong of me. I can and should and will try to do better.
I’ll also say I’ve fallen into the same trap with schrodingers_cat at times. There are things I’ve been dismissive of because I can logic my way around people’s emotions. That is not a thing I should do. And it doesn’t matter if anyone in question does things I have problems with otherwise. It doesn’t matter if they’ve also done things that I’ve felt were hurtful or unhelpful. I still need to be respectful of the ways that their various marginalization intersect with their lives and how they feel and how they communicate.
I will also demand the same of everyone, for all of us. Because without that demand the only people left here will be cis het whites.
And if we’re going to talk about how taking of sides re:Mix isn’t a path to healing, Starfish is asking us to do exactly what I’m reacting to; shut up and go away when we are forced to deal with patterns of behavior that frustrate and harm us because healing is only defined as a return to a calming of conflict, not a reconciliation of those harms. That only works for the people who make up the dominant cultural force in a space and it’s a sleight of hand that allows them to not have to do any work or make any changes.
It isn’t healing, it’s erasure.
It is the dynamic of the white moderate that MLK far more eloquently described than I ever could, of preferring “a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice”
Those of us who are hurting do need to be willing to forgive in order for the community to survive. We need to be prepared to accept that people are acting in good faith. It can be hard to do this right now, but we need to do it anyway.
But what we cannot do is engage in that labor that if no one is willing to accept that the harms are real and that they have the agency necessary to minimize them. We cannot do that if there are no apologies, no reconciliation, no attempts to do better, to allow oneself to be made uncomfortable, or angry, or hurt, and still have grace.
And the ask on that last one in particular cannot only be made of those of us who are being hurt and subsequently causing tension by saying so, whether we are doing so in am “appropriate” manner or not. It needs to be made on the part of those who feel unfairly attacked, especially when they’re sitting in a position of greater privilege.
And that position will be relative! Sometimes the same individual will be on either side of that depending on who they’re interacting with and about what. The general rule here is simply if what is being discussed is closer to the lived experience of the people you’re talking to, step back and listen to them more, even if you feel attacked. They are by nature more of an expert than you are likely to be. Be humble enough to learn from it. Have enough grace to let them feel what they’re feeling without having to constantly sanitize it for you.
That’s what giving people a space means.
suzanne
@sentient ai from the future: And that’s why we can keep that discussion more contained. And if you think it’s unhelpful, you can skip it.
oldgold
This was a well written and thoughtful statement.
Most of it I agree with. Some I do not.
That expressed, one aspect I disagree with, I feel compelled to mention specifically. It is the commentary on Kay. I believe it was unfair and unwarranted. I say this, although in a number of matters I disagree with Kay. Still, through her strong commentary and advocacy, she made me think. And, I always believed she was operating in good faith. That she was from time to time dismissive and a bit churlish – so what? I thought we were jackals.
Kay brought experiences and perspectives to a number of topics that were unique and insightful (Ohio politics, Denmark, Unions and more). In my opinion, this blog was better as a consequence of Kay’s participation.
Professor Bigfoot
@Ohio Mom: When there’s a history of hostility and derogatory personal comments, one is rational to assume that person is not a nice person IRL, either; despite their protestations of innocence.
But okay, I’ll just pie and go.
See, I don’t care if women hate men. I don’t mind if women are suspicious of me, give me the side eye, who dismiss me as a man.
I GET that; and they don’t have to be nice to me for me to work for their human rights too; and that seems a fundamental part of actually BEING an ally.
Balloon Juice Recently
FFS.
Antonius
@NightSky: Hear, hear, well said.
WaterGirl
@TBone: This is not an open thread.
Sister Golden Bear
@oldgold: Multiple things can be true at once. Not just Kay and MM, but others as well.
Eolirin
@Lobo: I appreciate you.
These are exactly the kinds of things we just need to sit with and let play out. We don’t get to start sniping at each other over them.
It’s hard to assume good faith right now, but if we just allow space to work through those reactions, and I actually feel like the back and forth here did more or less exactly that, then we end up where we need to. It’s okay for people to get a little sharp with each along the way. On both sides. As long as we don’t lose sight of the shared responsibilities we have to each other.
ArchTeryx
@Ohio Mom: That’s mental disabilities in general, though autism is definitely right up there. That disability service organizations would be run by bigots is no real surprise: They all have the base attitude that the only jobs disabled people “deserve” are minimum-wage substinence jobs. That shit that that Nazi in a fleece jacket, Youngkin, said to PhDs about working in Wal-Mart? I’m a PhD and heard that all my life.
But the idea that people with autistic kids would be more virulent bigots than Musk and his rats? That one shocked me. But as they say, once is a coincidence, twice is happenstance, and 3 times is enemy action.
Lobo
@Eolirin:
Thank you! Really appreciate the comment. All I can promise is to do my best. I will fail, I will pick myself up and try to do better next time.
Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony
@Starfish (she/her): I know one police abolitionist and one person who was leaning that way. It can be so frustrating when you are both being told you need to change your white people (even from progressive white people who have cut off every person in their life they don’t agree with) AND when you are being told you are shutting down the voices of color when you try to explain that what the activists are doing is making it 100 times harder to change white people’s minds.
It’s so maddening. I hear from my Foxified family that liberals support criminals more than victims. I say that isn’t true. Then you pair that phrase with some police abolitionist piping up and confirming their worst fears.
You don’t get police reform unless you change white people. Once again, the City of St. Louis is losing the power to run the police department. MO passed a law to put it under state control. This is what happens when enough white people get scared. They freak out and they take away the opportunities for reform.
And yes, I know its 100 times worse for black people. I know people are going to say what they are going to say, especially when they are angry or scared. I get it. But I can’t just stand there when people hand their oppressors weapons to use against them and say nothing.
Cathie from Canada
I know Canada has this rep of being perfect, but our Indigenous people suffered for more than a century under a vicious racism made even worse by a veneer of religiosity, if that is a word. It was so ingrained in Canadian society that Indigenous people were just invisible except for the occasional sports hero. It took a lot of effort to change our society to the point now that we have 3 provincial premiers who are Indigenous. I won’t go into the whole history of how hard it has been to change, and we’re not there yet, but Canada is better than it was. Trudeau’s leadership has made a difference in the last 9 years too.
I don’t know if I have anything to contribute to this American discussion except to say that we now understand that our Canadian racism is insidious and it affects our society in ways we still need to acknowledge and fight.
Hildebrand
Before I read a single comment, let me just say, this is brilliant and vital – thank you, Eolirin!
TBone
@Professor Bigfoot: I promise to stay fierce! Thank you!
And also too, always have at the ready in ALL of our holsters:
WaterGirl
@suzanne: Let’s talk off-line.
Fair Economist
@oldgold: There are some commenters who bring a lot to the conversation, but also sometimes create a major shitstorm. I’m currently leaning to the thought that such people are overall a detriment. I miss ABL, who seems to have been driven off by such things.
Something to think about is that LGM has shitstorms too but isn’t being affected as much. I’m wondering if threaded comments has something to do with it – if a couple of people are going at each other over something at LGM, most people will just close out the discussion and not see it. FWIW, I rarely see the shitstorms that result in people quitting, because I either nope out of such threads or pie one of the participants.
Eolirin
@oldgold: I have outright stated directly to Kay that her perspective on nonTrans issues have been valuable even as I’ve been begging her to stop making transphobic comments. I am not anti-Kay as a person.
I am very anti-how Kay behaved towards Planet Eddie specifically and on trans issues broadly, and the harms of that singular incident and around that topic have never really been addressed.
There are things that have been done to Kay that are also not okay.
And this is kind of the problem here. There’s a black or whiteness to how people’s actions impact us, where if someone is causing harm it means they’re racist or transphobic or sexist or whatever and consequently are bad and shouldn’t be tolerated. That’s not it. It’s the behavior that’s the problem, or the idea, or the expression, or the lack of giving space in that specific moment.
But the thing is we can fix those things! We can change how we do things. That means we get to keep more of those good things while causing less harm. But we also can’t continue to ignore that they’re happening, have happened, and have not been addressed.
I’m happy to have my own behavior called out in this way. I’m happy to have other people keep me honest, even if I might not always agree with them. And I know I can do a better job holding space than I have for certain people, so I’m going to try to do that.
I’d only ask the everyone else to the same.
Professor Bigfoot
@Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony: As I recall, Black folks were the loudest that “Defund the Police” was counterproductive; but were shouted down.
I beg everyone’s forgiveness but that came across to me as white people unwilling to ever listen to Black people.
Mingobat (f/k/a KareninGa)
@Blue Galangal: One way I trick my brain into accepting of criticism is to think, “I know the kind of person I want to be, and this individual criticizing me is generously handing me detailed instructions and a road map to becoming that person.”
It’s like performing jujitsu on my white human urge to center myself. Yeah, the criticism is about me being an ass, but it’s still about MEEE.* So I take it to heart, and hopefully the end result is I don’t suck as much as a human being, which then leads to the individual/group needing support to have one more person in their corner who’s halfway decent at supporting them. So everybody wins.
And I’ve just written two paragraphs about MEEEE, so I’ll stop now.
*Not losing sight of the fact that these Remedial Allyship classes must be exhausting for the people who keep having to teach them.
TBone
@WaterGirl: therefore, the “Cool As A Cucumber” Salad recipe.
Bevstersf
Longtime lurker here, old white woman born and raised in the south. During the Rodney King trial I was walking down the street thinking deep thoughts about how we have a horrible problem with racism in this country, and yet nobody’s a racist. “I’m not racist but” could be our national mantra. So I decided ha ha, okay, I’ll do it. I’ll be America’s designated racist. And you know what – I am racist. We all are in this country. It’s simply the ocean we swim in. I’m certainly no role model about this, but I can say acknowledgement comes first. Then asking and studying the fundamental question of why we have racism when there’s absolutely no basis for it, scientific or otherwise. Then monitoring your own reactions, understanding what upsets you, and trying to understand why. For example, during the George Floyd protests I saw Angela Davis being interviewed. I’ve been listening to her for probably fifty years now, and she inevitably puts my back up. So I was going thanks, Angela, way to alienate your allies, when I finally realized that after half a century I’m still expecting her to express herself in ways that make my white ass comfortable. That’s racist. So if you’re white, come at these things with the default that you’re probably the asshole, shut up, and listen. It’s hard but necessary.
way2blue
@Eolirin:
Eolirin. Thank you for taking time to offer this plea for sorely needed empathy toward those feeling targeted in our new dark time (Alison Rose came to mind…. ).
Was a tough piece to read & process. (N.B., I rarely wade through comments—so miss the context that brought things to a head—but can surmise the essence nonetheless.)
Gin & Tonic
@Eolirin: I want to thank you for the clear, cogent and persuasive writing, both up top and then following up in the comments. It gives me a lot to think about.
humanadverb
Damn. Well said, Eolirin.
Not “well said” in the “you just articulated my thoughts,” way, but in the “yeah, I needed to get checked on some stuff” way
Thank you.
Ramalama
The past couple of weeks I’ve been thinking a lot about Truth and Reconciliation, the commission South Africa set up after the fall of apartheid. I used to listen to the early morning BBC on my car radio once a week in the early 2000s, where they referenced this commission and reports by white officials who were given forgiveness after detailing all the shite they did to the majority black population.
Not sure how something like that might work in America. Probably a non-starter because USA is so incredibly dumb about people.
I am white but have some Black relatives (and some Mexican ones and a bunch of Jewish ones), which I hope has softened me to being more open and less of a default asshat. Some of the kids are trans. I’m the one sole lesbo that I know of.
I’m surprised more people aren’t finding their own family circles getting less than lily. Or maybe they are and it’s causing a panic.
Thanks for the cogent and heartfelt write-up @Eolirin
Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony
@Professor Bigfoot: That was not my experience locally. The person I know who is a police abolitionist is black. The one that is leaning that way is white. Most of the activists in the local news shouting ‘Defund the Police’ are/were black or that I engaged with on Facebook around this issue (on my friend’s posts) were black. Please note, those two were very active in the local BLM movement after Ferguson.
Starfish (she/her)
@Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony:
I think this explains the dilemma perfectly. It really hard to be the bridge across all the many communities.
Usually, the state taking away control of policing (or schools) from a city does not lead to better outcomes because a governor is not really focused on the problems of the city they are taking over.
WaterGirl
@Lobo:
Lobo, my comment at #15:
…was in direct response to the criticism about your comment.
Eolirin
@Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony: I believe there was a big generational gap on this issue.
chemiclord
@Belafon: The saying “hit dogs holler” stems from that phenomenon. The sort of people who get all defensive and say, “Not all (x)” is usually because (even if subconsciously) it’s something that still resonates within their behavior.
Eolirin
@WaterGirl: I think we worked it out WG.
We all need a little more patience for sure.
Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony
@Eolirin: Yes. 100%. The activists were younger, 20s-30s.
Sister Golden Bear
@Fair Economist: When Eolirin, myself and a number of other minority commenters are saying it’s more than just “people need to be more civil,” it’s worthy asking yourself why you’re not seeing it. I don’t mean this to be snide or argumentative, rather that maybe there’s some blindspots worth examining. Which is the larger point many of us are making.
Lobo
@WaterGirl:
Thank you!
BellaPea
@karen gail: Yes, unfortunately you are right. I grew up in a dysfunctional home with an alcoholic father, and always, always, it was about “we have to get this man, the head of the house, we have to help him get better.” No one thought that maybe it wasn’t a good idea for a little girl to grow up in a house with a violent drunk.
Professor Bigfoot
@Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony: Wow, that wasn’t my take at all!
Aight, I for damn sure can’t gainsay your direct experience— I can only agree that it was stupid. <sigh>
Professor Bigfoot
@BellaPea: That was Mrs. B’s life; and it breaks my heart when she talks about it.
It’s really the sort of thing that gives me some sympathy for the temperance movement— there’s so much suffering that’s aided and abetted by alcohol… but of course, prohibition is the medicine that’s worse for the patient than the disease.
A woman from anywhere (formerly Mohagan)
@Ohio Mom: Of course someone else did – me! Virginia Wolf in A Room of One’s Own, IIRC.
planet eddie
@Fair Economist: I left because of pretty significant transphobia that caused me to cry myself to sleep for about 2 weeks.
Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony
@Professor Bigfoot: Honestly, I am surprised by your experience and take on this as well because it was the exact opposite of mine. But, I am really glad we are on the same page here. That feels good.
brantl
@Professor Bigfoot: Your concept of how this will work, when we’re all retired, and have nothing else to do but listen to all of the things that can be considered micro-aggressions regardless of our intent?
People don’t know what they don’t know until/unless omniscience settles on them.
A woman from anywhere (formerly Mohagan)
@planet eddie: I’m so sorry you went through that and that we (as a community) didn’t immediately see that as big a problem as when MM left. Ugh – more (straight) white people privilege.
Eolirin
@Gin & Tonic: Thanks, and because I don’t think I’ve said it I really appreciate the context you’ve provided around Ukraine for the last few years, especially when I know it must have been very difficult to talk about it.
Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony
@Ramalama:
That is true in my experience. It also rather ironically seems to be that several of the older Republican people in my network who are the least willing to acknowledge their racism are the one’s who ended up with multiracial grandchildren.
Quiltingfool
@Professor Bigfoot: Exactly. A white person tells you, Oh, hey, Professor Bigfoot, I’m your ally! I’ve got your back!” do you automatically say, “Whew, that’s a relief, thank you so much!”
Hell no, you don’t. Right there is the cookie expectation.
The way I see it, it’s going to take a lot for black people to trust white people, and for some black folks it may never happen. That’s where white fragility and privilege come in. We white people TOLD you we have your backs, so you HAVE to believe us.
No. You aren’t required to give white people trust, you cannot be forced to trust white people, no matter how much we implore you by saying, “Not me! I’m a *good* white person.”
I can tell you over and over again in this space that you must trust me, a white woman, because I’m good, or made the right mouth noises or whatever.
No. If we were acquainted in real life, and over time you decided that I could be trusted because of my actions, then that is your choice, not mine. My choice is to treat you as a person to be respected, valued and to be who you are. What you do with my choice is for you to decide.
I understand where you are coming from when I think about my experiences as a woman, although what I’ve dealt with is nowhere near the shitty micro or macro aggressions black people have to deal with constantly. Where it is a relief to be around people that you can just be you and not *have your shields up*.
It isn’t your job to fix me or any other white people perceptions. That’s my job. What you have done for me is to give me things to think about, to truly walk in your shoes. I am grateful that you do this, even though you don’t have to.
Betty Cracker
@Starfish (she/her): I think there’s a lot that’s wise and thoughtful in Eolirin‘s comment, so I understand the impulse to publish it on the front page. But fwiw, I agree with you.
It’s one thing to drag specific community members who weren’t party to a discussion (and therefore not there to defend themselves) in a comments thread. It’s another to pin said dragging on the front page and thereby seem to give it an official seal of approval.
John Cole
@Betty Cracker: I did not see this as a dragging of mistermix. I was just trying to lower the tone and thought my post and eolirin’s response was helping to create space for everyone to peacefully exist and become better. I am sooo sorry if that is not the impression people are getting and it absolutely was not my intent.
John Cole
@Ohio Mom: I did.
WaterGirl
@John Cole: I have no regrets about front-paging this thoughtful and constructive post from Eolirin. I think nearly everyone took it in the spirit it was intended, as a continuation of the constructive dialogue that began yesterday.
wenchacha
@John Cole: Maybe also of Kay.
John Cole
And this is a blanket reminder that like the conservatives who want to ban books or tv shows, my response is the same- turn the fucking channel. If this thread is not for you, go to the next one. There is a great post by David Anderson, Anne Laurie has her covid review. It’s that fucking easy. I mean fucking hell, everything can’t be tailor made for everyone.
I mean cripes. If you can’t handle a little introspection and what you consider navel-gazing or self-importance, just move on to the next post. Don’t read the comments. I just fucking want us all to be able to live together because this is a fucking national emergency and it is all hands on deck, and maybe in the process some of us can learn something from others who may not comment as much because they feel uncomfortable doing so. I didn’t click on the link to the comments section of this post, you did, fer fuck’s sake.
PJ
@Betty Cracker:
Are MisterMix’s feelings more important than the impact of his attitudes on readers?
He was, and is, always free to justify what he wrote, or ask for clarification about why commenters objected to it, and genuinely try to figure out why it was that he set people off. He didn’t want to do that. That’s his choice. He’s a big boy.
But telling people they should just shut up and ignore it, all for the sake of “healing”? Please.
The larger point is that this is not an isolated situation, but one that has come up before and will come up again. If you can’t highlight it for discussion, when will that discussion ever happen?
wenchacha
(Not to ignore Planet Eddie; I thought maybe the extent of the discussion on the thread focused more on MM and Kay.)
Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony
@Betty Cracker: I hadn’t commented on this, but I agree too. I disagree with MM about a LOT. I think Kay can go too far as she especially did with planet e. However, I do think they bring a perspective that is valuable and that I’ve learned from. With Kay especially, I understand why she felt triggered, too. Pinning a post where they are getting dragged a lot doesn’t feel right.
This is what I meant earlier by the perils of a big tent. If you want different perspectives, some of them are only going to come from people who aren’t as sensitive or aware as others would like because those people have had different life experiences that have made them that way
I’ve got to get back to work. I’ve spent too much time here today.
Betty Cracker
@John Cole: Haven’t read the whole thread, but most people do seem to be taking it in the spirit you intended, so that’s good.
Eolirin
@Betty Cracker: I’m not trying to drag them Betty, I’m explaining how they’ve hurt me.
I do not hate Mix or Kay, I don’t want them to go away. But the specific situations I’ve brought up have been brought up because they’re fundamentally emblematic of why saying we need to be more civil are grossly inadequate.
Kay really hurt Planet Eddie. There’s been no real recognition of it. The community shrugged and moved on. It’s been ignored. It took me saying something about it for Planet Eddie to even rejoin the conservation. This is what keeps happening to our minority voices. This is why we keep leaving.
We don’t get multiple FP posts talking about how we all need to be more civil and no one is expected to address it when it happens to us. Cole gets sad but we just move on.
That expressing the ways in which we’re being hurt is viewed as an attack on you, and not an expression of how your actions affect us means we can’t have a dialog about how your actions effect us.
And we’ve needed to have that conversation for a very long time. I’m sorry that that requires being specific. I’m sorry that comes across as needing to target people specifically, but there’s no way to sanitize this to generalities. Everyone who spends a lot of time here will have a list of things that they’ve felt this way about with various people.
Some of them may even feel that way about me. It doesn’t do us any good to not talk about it.
Starfish (she/her)
@suzanne: I am seeing this behavior in MULTIPLE different communities, folks engaging in simplistic analysis trying to run others off. It is exhausting.
If you want to talk about it, please get my email address from WaterGirl or whatever front pager. Then ask me to remember to check that email because it is the one where spam lives.
Spanish Moss
@wenchacha: Yes. Particularly saying that Kay drove Planet Eddie away on the front page, when Kay has not been participating in these threads. There were so many pile-on’s in so many directions in those old threads, it was hard to keep track, it was hardly just Kay. Eolirin has since clarified in the comments here, but that statement is still on the front page, in a post that says everyone should read it, and this feels wrong to me.
Kay
@Eolirin:
I think you’re full of shit so we’re even. You and some others disagree with me so you wanted to run me off and you succeeded.
A!so? Try not to lecture women about what they can and cannot address in a comment. Its sexist.
IMO its weird to have a pinned post specifically dragging me for a full day, but this place is a club and I’m no longer a member, so trash me for several days, if you like.
Professor Bigfoot
@Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony: Running in different circles, I guess.
I always said, “THERE WILL BE POLICING. Period. You cannot avoid this, it’s inherent in the human animal. Whether it’s the city cops, medieval guardsmen, or mobsters, there will be policing. The question is whether that policing will be with the consent and support of the policed.”
Like, “y’all don’t think Black folks LIKE crime, do you? We just don’t wanna get shot by agents of the State for our mere existence.”
Kay
And Angry Black Lady could never post here. She criticizes Democrats. She’d be run off for that. She’s much much harsher than mm, but since none of her “big fans” here actually READ her, apparently, none of you know that.
Professor Bigfoot
@brantl: Obviously the correct course is to accept “allies” at their word, just to be able to say “curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal,” right? 😂
SIster Golden Bear
@Eolirin:
This. Abso-fucking-lutely this.
Don’t get me wrong, I’ve truly appreciated Kay and MM insights on many things, but that doesn’t negate others that they’ve done. Which among other reasons is I stopped posting about trans stuff for a while after planet eddie was run off, because frankly I just didn’t want to deal with the inevitable attacks.
I’m not asking for a safe space, but I’d prefer a space that isn’t at times actively hostile to me and other minority folks—which too often it has seemed like. And not to make it all about Kay, but seeing her valorized post-planet eddie, with no acknowledgement of the harm done, is an example of something that does come across as a hostile not-so-micro-aggression, even if it’s not an intentional one. (I’ll let others speak to their own experiences, I’m just using that as an example because it’s applicable to me.)
Ohio Mom
@ArchTeryx: The autism community is so torn up about who is autistic enough, makes this thread look like happiness and joy. It’s crabs in a bucket everywhere.
Once I was at a luncheon for moms and one of them was declaring autism is the worst disability. All I could say was Really?! I couldn’t even begin to unpack that, I was so gobsmacked. Such internalized disablism with a splash of narcissism.
Quiltingfool
@planet eddie: I’m so sorry. I liked your posts. When people feel safe to share their experiences, to tell their stories, I learn things and it helps me to walk in your shoes.
I wish you felt safe here. The absence of your voice is a loss to, well, me, as I cannot speak for everyone. But I think others miss you, too.
Eolirin
@Kay: I don’t want to run you off, and never have. I just want you to recognize what happened on that one topic and to apologize for it, because it was very hurtful.
Literally that is it.
I find your voice valuable on almost everything else you talk about and have said as much multiple times.
I am very much willing to apologize for my tone deafness during the aftermath of Dobbs, I fucked up there with respect to you specifically. I’m not trying to persecute you.
Eolirin
@SIster Golden Bear: and that is literally the only reason why I even brought it up.
Ruckus
@Eolirin:
Nothing negative from me about what you say.
I am an old white man. Now that said, I was raised in a household that did not accept racism or that some humans are less.
My favorite human after being on this planet for 75 years was a black, gay woman. I believe I was the last person to talk to her before she died in a hospital from sickle cell disease. I met her when she was my gay sister’s partner, who has also passed a few years ago.
Now it is true that while this is still a at least somewhat racist country, (and quite possibly more than somewhat) it is better than it was at a time prior to anyone alive today. And I know this because of a number of people I’ve known. Is it perfect? HELL NO. But it is humanity so it can get a hell of a lot better but it will never be perfect. It can’t, because none of us are. We all need to work on this. I wrote the above so that some might understand that my life has not been a case of wake up late and smell the hate. I’ve seen it very early on. I’ve also seen it get better, even as it isn’t nearly good enough yet, and as I’m an old, it vey likely won’t be in my lifetime, because it’s humanity, in all it’s forms and bullshit.
I’m planning on sticking around as long as I can because I hope to see it one a hell of a lot better. And because I miss my black gay friend more than anyone else I’ve ever known. That memory is one of my best.
Ohio Mom
@Bevstersf: Oh, come out of lurkdom and comment more.
Marc
This. Plus the way cops treat you, whether they are white or (sometimes) black. I tell tell a lot of strange stories here, but to me they are attempts at illustrating growing up and living as a non-person. Non-white, non-Jewish, non-normal, non-‘Black’ in the sense that I only lived and went to school in an actual Black community until age 6. Most white folks never get to experience both a non-person and the only one at the same time. It definitely made me a little crazy and a little alarmist. My sense Day 1 of the Trump presidency that the choice of EOs was aimed at eventually taking us back to the Jim Crow era, but for anyone who is not a straight ‘christian’ white male (or designated fellow traveler). I guess I was right.
Lily
removed
WaterGirl
@Kay: I really did not see this as a post dragging you or mistermix, and I apologize for being oblivious to how it might feel like that. What I saw was a perspective that could further a constructive conversation.
There have been neon lights flashing, John talked about it all last night, and it seems like a bigger conversation is needed if we want to get away from the incessant warring in the comments.
I certainly don’t want you to leave, and I didn’t want mistermix to leave, either.
Eolirin
@WaterGirl: Neither do I. To be extremely clear.
Starfish (she/her)
@Kay: My impression of the original post was that it was dragging you gratuitously.
My recollection of Planet Eddie was that Planet Eddie was a non-binary theater person, and they made two posts that seemed thoughtful and interesting. But since I am not into theater I did not stick around to see what was going on in the comments. I tried to look for past Planet Eddie posts and just could not find them.
But in the attempt to find Planet Eddie’s post, I found this ABL post.
And it sure seems like the commentariat wants to drive off every one of those groups except maybe the Obama voters.
BethanyAnne
@Ohio Mom: Nope. I got it, too. Have you seen the video for “All The King’s Horses”?
tobie
Thank you so much, Eolirin, for this honest, eloquent, and thoughtful post.
There are tons of political things I don’t talk about on this blog because I don’t have the energy to get into fights that won’t lead anywhere and will just make me and everyone else bitter. I left on Oct 8, 2023 and didn’t come back till after the election because I was so devastated by the results and needed the community. I didn’t agree with many of MisterMix’s post, but he was a frontpager and I was a guest in the virtual house, so it was on me to avoid his posts if I didn’t have anything productive to say.
The response to his departure, though, did bother me. The blog quickly settled on the narrative that Mix was hounded out and commenters needed to be chastised for their brutish ways. Okay…point taken. But Mix was no shrinking violet, and he gave as good as he got. And frankly the disagreement over Jeffries and his book seems pretty trivial in the face of the demolition of the federal govt, the slashing of Medicaid and food stamps, and so. Yes, we can all be kinder. We can also listen more to the most vulnerable among us, whose lives are endangered by this admin.
I’ll continue to comment now and again, perhaps with more focus on the suffering in Baltimore, the largest city in my state, which with Medicaid cuts, and NIH cuts, and Soc Sec cuts, and VA cuts is going to be hurt a 100x more than the rural areas, though nary a word will be said about this in the media.
Kay
@WaterGirl:
Oh come on. You’re smarter than that. How was I supposed to defend myself? I’m one person and you’ve assembled this fucking bizarre tribunal to try me in absentia. What was the plan? Kay jumps in and defends against 100 people?
Just leave me alone. I won’t be back, so you all can spend 4 more hours scolding me but know that its weird.
Sister Golden Bear
@Eolirin:
@WaterGirl:
Nor I.
John S.
@Eolirin:
Thanks for taking the time to respond. I completely understand where you are coming from, and what you are asking for. And I don’t really have any issue with any of that, or the message of your original post here. I think you are an amazing person and a very gifted writer.
The problem that I will always have is allowing who we are be important than what we do. For me, this has absolutely nothing to do with Kay or MM or anyone else. It has everything to do with far too many people providing a safe space for bigotry to take root, and either being silent about it or actively cheering it on under the guise of tolerance and acceptance.
Chris said it much better than I could.
Giving people space shouldn’t mean having to accept or tolerate disgusting behavior, no matter who it comes from.
Professor Bigfoot
@Quiltingfool: I came to some level of “enlightenment” when I got introduced to the concept of “mansplaining.”
I’d been “whitesplained” so much that I recognized it immediately and resolved “fuck if I’m gonna be that guy.”
And then, like I said earlier, once you see that patriarchy shit, you see it every fucking where.
And it will piss you right off.
Eolirin
@John S.: On this we are in complete agreement.
Kay
@Starfish (she/her):
Despite the commentators here depicting ABL as wandering around unemployed and emotionally bereft because she left Balloon Juice 100 years ago that is not actually true. “ABL” (Imani) has her OWN very strong opinions on Democrats, which one would know if one actually read her, instead of using her as some kind of symbol to be used to attack people they disagree with. She has a podcast! She has a nonprofit! She’s much, much more successful on her own. She thinks Democrats in leadership are doing a terrible job, so therefore could not post here.
John S.
@Eolirin:
Then perhaps you should be more vocal about it.
mvr
Thanks for prominently reposting this and of course also to Eolirin for writing it in the first place.
Spanish Moss
Okay, so now that we know that some readers are noticing the dragging of certain people on the front page (even though that wasn’t the point of the post), can we do something about it? Not everyone has the time or fortitude to wade through the comments for further explanation. Even worse, some are looking up some of those old posts and those are NOT a good starting point for a healthier discussion. Especially the one whose title I don’t even want to mention. I was hoping for a fresh start.
WaterGirl
@Kay:
Apparently not today.
Professor Bigfoot
@bluefoot: Something subtle about this that they’ll never understand— we cannot know if we’re being treated the way we are by that person because they’re having a bad day, or because….
Its a specific kind of stress; and of course, calling it out usually just makes things worse; so usually we just go along to get along.
But when I do business with someone who genuinely treats me right (our vet, my mechanic, our HVAC people have done) will have a customer for life.
KRK
@Fair Economist:
Personal attacks drove planet eddie away (speaking as an observer), but the primary actor was/is held up by the vocal majority of the BJ community, including front pagers like MM, as being particularly valued and worthy. So quite a different situation, but not for the reason you give.
I don’t comment often and am suffuse with privilege, but that was a very painful episode to see unfolding. It helped me to understand exactly what Eolirin is talking about here.
Ohio Mom
@Kay: I know the Democrats are bad at their jobs, just like I know Ohio Dad can not properly wash a pot. I’m going to keep voting for Democrats and stay married to the man-who-can’t-see-dirt. Life is one big compromise.
I’ll miss you Kay. You have smart and interesting and unique things to say. I admire the way you stick up for your opinions and don’t get why that is upsetting to people.
Rachel Bakes
@Eolirin: thank you for your words.
John S.
@Ohio Mom:
psst… I know you said you don’t check emails, but I sent you one earlier.
BarcaChicago
@WaterGirl:
FWIW, my lurker thoughts: I see no “dragging” of Kay or MM. In my understanding, “dragging” is being insulting, hostile, disrespectful.
Eolirin
@John S.: I have been.
I am not posting in a vacuum free of context here.
I don’t think anyone needs my voice to be reinforcing the idea that vicious personal attacks are beyond the pale, for instance. We have a ban policy for people being overtly racist or attacking whatever else aspect of people’s identity.
So I’m raising my voice mostly to where the community’s blindspot is.
We do not have equal power, and while we need to all treat each other with dignity and humanity, we also need to recognize the fundamental imbalance that exists as well.
You can’t ignore who people are, because it’s a core part of the context of the person. It’s a core part of the context of their relationship to the community. The idea that you can measure people solely on the basis of their actions and not the context of who they are is fundamentally discriminatory. Who they are affects them, often in crippling ways.
If the community cannot differentiate between this is how this person has hurt me, as a person who exists in this context, from attacks on that person, we cannot have meaningful dialog, we will not be able to get over our hurts, and we will not heal.
If we’re going to focus on tone policing and just not talking about things that are difficult, instead of trying to get past the language that’s being used and how it’s making us feel, to see and try to understand the pain underneath it… I don’t see how we can move past any of it.
This is not an excuse to be cruel to one another. But there needs to be a recognition that we need to talk about these things, that they will be unpleasant, and that we’re probably all going to get defensive listening to what needs to be said.
I am trying to get us to break the loop we’ve been stuck in and move to greater understanding and empathy toward one another, but that process is going to require accepting responsibility on the part of everyone and that is going to be the hardest for those who cannot see the way they play a role in the hurt that’s keep us divided, and calls simply to be civil ignore the subtler and more invisible harms that keep getting thrown at us because we are not grappling with this. It’s why I brought up the specific examples I did. And they were particular to my context.
And this is very much a microcosm of the struggle we’re facing in our broader society, which makes it all the harder for those of us in the process of being run over by us currently be losing it.
My voice is where it needs to be.
WaterGirl
@Kay:
As someone who has been trashed multiple times on the front page and in the comments by another front-pager, I can assure you that I would never intentionally slag someone else in that way..
All I saw was a thoughtful piece that I thought could continue the conversation and give voice to the folks who are increasingly vocal about not being heard.
I was shocked when I read Betty’s comment. I did not see this at all as slagging anyone.
I am sorry to have unwittingly caused you harm.
I still believe that what Eolirin wrote is a great and thoughtful approach. I should have been mindful that names were named. I still think we need the conversation.
MagdaInBlack
@Kay: It’s not a “bizarre tribunal” Kay. It’s people discussing what has upset them.
JFC
Omnes Omnibus
This is a challenging post in a lot of ways. Many of us are being asked to examine our actions and how they may or may not match up to our inner perceptions of who we are. Everyone falls short of perfection when we actually and sincerely do that. It can be very uncomfortable, but it is something that we should do every so often.
Ohio Mom
@John S.: I saw it. It’s been a busy day
I promise I’ll get to you
John S.
@Ohio Mom:
No worries! I don’t expect to crack even the top 1000 in terms of priorities for you. Just wanted to make sure you saw it.
@Eolirin:
If you feel you’re doing the right thing, that’s all that matters. I still see people saying horrible things right here on this thread, and nobody really says anything about it (or worse, they cheer it on and contribute to it). As long as that persists, any fruit that comes from the soil here is poisoned. And that’s a shame.
Adam L Silverman
Since it seems to somehow have been missed, despite me never hiding the fact: I AM JEWISH! And I’m the one who has to deal with the group of antisemitic trolls that show up in my comments and keep trying to evade their banishment from the site. Now keep my name out of your mouth!!!!
Kay
@MagdaInBlack:
Bullshit. Its more passive aggressive scolding by the same people who dislike and disagree with me on Gaza, on Democrats, on protesters and protests – on a LOT of things that are now off limits on this blog, and its also a warning – don’t dissent or you too will get this treatment.
Fuck that. Carry on with your bizarre 6 hour slagging of one commenter.
sab
@Professor Bigfoot: Me too on the possible NE Ohio meetup come better weather. I am thrilled to hear you are still interested. Manyakitty and I had hoped to get one going a couple of years ago but the project died of (my) neglect.
Kay
I knew it was over for me here when I took an organizing course with DSA – which is amazing, btw – but knew I couldn’t post about it here because it would just ENRAGE a certain group of commenters who would drag that to every thread, with everything they’ve been angry about since 2016, directed at me.
I’m not even in DSA! I was just looking for organizing ideas! But I knew anything substantive I posted would turn into the same tired ” we hate this or that part if the coalition” argument that goes on in EVERY thread, over and over, to the exclusion of everything ekse. I’m not interested in that.
Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony
@Kay: So, I’m really curious what you learned in that course.
sab
@John Cole: My husband reads the front page but never the comments. He was very bummed when Mix left amd thrilled when he sort of came back. I was also bummed when he left, but then realized I had pied him months ago.
sab
@Kay: Are you really leaving! Yikes and oh shit!
Geminid
@Kay: You are one of the most astute observer of politics around, and you also have as much or more practical experience in political work as anyone here.
So personally, I would regret seeing you go, especially if it’s a result of Mistermix’s well-planned departure.
TEL
@Sister Golden Bear: You probably won’t see this, but your regular updates about your transition were very illuminating for me. And your updates on the trans un-personing laws that have been happening across the country for the past few years are terrifying. I always read your comments when I see them which is something I do for only a few commenters. I would hate to see you go.
Eolirin
@John S.: I may have missed something? There’s been a lot of volume and I write long so a lot of posts get added while I’m writing.
If you’re referring to what happened with Lobo, I don’t think that actually qualifies and it was handled the way I would hope it to be, it’s a good example of what I want to see more of and would encourage people to do when people, including themselves, are being a little sharp and prickly; actually working through that prickliness and getting to a place of understanding.
We’re going to get triggered and say stupid shit. We’re going to generate frictions with each other, but we can still end up respecting and appreciating each other.
Elizabelle
@sab: That is funny.
@Kay: I think it’s the way that it is done and approached. If it comes off as punching down at, OK, Democrats who should be your allies on a lot of things, that is going to get peoples’ backs up. We see so much bashing, ignoring, othering of Democrats in the news (or MIA, and that’s an editorial decision, too), that speaking for myself, I know that I feel protective.
Let’s face it. Most of us say things on the blog that we would NEVER say to most people in real life. Shorthand, some groupthink, and a lot of assumptions about others.
@Eolirin: I think you and others have been really generous in explaining and working out in comments how you feel. Also think you personally are an engaging writer, which comes from being a clear thinker with something important to say. (Somethings, actually.)
Delighted not to be floating through a sea of “content creation.” Or cynicism; I’ve not read all the comments (or even most of them), but cynicism seems missing here. And that’s a great help.
Apologies for so many words. I am tired today.
TBone
@Eolirin: you are showing The Way.
TEL
I am grateful to you, Eolirin, that you took the time to do this. I had noticed that a fair number of the commenters who I know are black were either commenting less or only commenting on specific threads. Not being black myself (or nearly as thoughtful as Eolirin) I didn’t know what I could say that would make any difference. But being white, I think being able to look at our own behavior and not make everything about us makes this a better and more interesting community for us all.
Ruckus
Just got back from the store and I read this and it almost sounds like an attack squad against some people. Some people that I don’t see why they would be attacked.
Let’s face it – humans are mammals like a lot of other animals. We don’t like some of our fellow human beings, not always because of their skin color or their genitalia, but in the case of a blog where we discuss humanity sometimes because of something they wrote or some situation they have been in. Which we weren’t there so we didn’t hear the words or know the others they were dealing with. There are both positive and negative sides to blogging. Humans often assume something from what we’ve read or heard or watched. And sometimes that hearing or reading isn’t what the other person actually meant. I’ve been in situation where the entire context of the situation may look different, a hell of a lot different to different people, possibly because of position, or a number of possible reasons. In the military actually few humans have a lot of anything like freedom. One has to stay in line, literally and figuratively. And in real life anymore that often is the case, maybe with a bit more freedom. But unless one lives by themselves in a cave the reality is that we are seeing humanity grow and breathing room getting closer. None of us can live like we own the world or even a few square feet of it. We have to live in a way that doesn’t just piss off everyone else or even just a few others. For some/many humans that’s not anything they approve of, being a part of rather than the entire structure. But that’s living in this timeframe for most people.
Now for my second part. NONE OF US ARE PERFECT. We just aren’t. We are animals. We live in groups. Sometimes rather large groups, sometimes far smaller. We have emotions, positive and negative. We aren’t carbon copies, we are mammals, born, raised, released into the wild of humanity. Not all of us learned early how to fit in, and as above fitting in today is a lot different than half a century or more ago. Some of us have issues, say like migraines, on unscheduled arrivals, which can make us a tad not as friendly. Humanity is subject to a lot of issues that create different kinds of stress. Some like to drink and sometimes do a tad too much, leaving one in a possibly less than optimal state. I can go on and cover a lot but I’d bet most get the point. We have to learn to be rather acceptable and accepting of other humans.
There have been people on this blog, which some have spoken of that are no longer here because they got chased off for some reason. We all look at life just a bit differently because we are human and we often expect more than we give, or better than we give. And this world, with a growing population will not stand if we don’t learn to live with others in mind. Take the world’s wealthiest man (PLEASE!). He seems to think his money makes him the high lord and master. IT DOES NOT. And it never should.
Eolirin
@Elizabelle: I can scarcely fault anyone else for using too many words. Thank you.
sab
@Elizabelle: If Kay is gone then so am I . We don’t always agree but she is thoughtful and actually informed about grass level in the weeds politics. No point in coming here if people like her are run off.
She is a long time lawyer. She undoubtedly has the hide of a rhinoceros. But she is offended enough to move off.
Elizabelle
@Eolirin: Yeah, but yours make sense! ;-)
Kay
@Geminid:
It’s not just because of mistermix – it’s because I can’t even talk about political work IM DOING without it turning into the Airing of Grievances since 2012. If it were even limited to one thread but it’s not – it’s EVERY thread. Every thread is “about” who is bad in the coalition and should be shunned. “50% of Muslims vote GOP so screw them” – this is just anathema to an organizer. It’s not how we think. It sounds insane to me.
I censor MYSELF here now because I don’t want to upset the whole blog when I defend the people I’m working with. Because I will defend them. We both know that.
I do appreciate your takes on Gaza – I could tell you genuinely cared about the people there. So the respect is mutual :)
But adios amigo
sab
Deleted. I misunderstood a post. But I will still have issues with Kay leaving.
sab
@sab: Not that I contribute much. But I do hope to learn.
Ruckus
@Kay:
I am very sorry to see you go.
Best to you and your’s and adios amigo.
Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony
@Kay: I don’t want to see you go, but I don’t blame you. If you post somewhere else, please leave that info here.
Kay
@sab:
I’ll leave you with this. My four year old granddaughter told me “everyone likes me at school…except my enemies”
Lol. Apple doesn’t fall far from the tree!
She’s crazy tall for her age and she’s already learning hockey. Her enemies better look out if she meets them on the ice.
Geminid
@Kay: Well, I hope you enjoy gardening in Michigan. Remember to buy some Carhart gear. Michigan’s cold!
And I wish you safe travels in your other important work.
suzanne
@Kay: You will be missed. I’d love for you to stay.
Eolirin
I think the thread is about done now and I’m also at about the limit of my ability to push my CFS, so I’m heading out.
I really do care about all of you, even you Kay, and I really do want all of us to be able to move past our pain and frustration with each other. I hope you all have a good rest of the day.
bluefoot
@Professor Bigfoot: I have a lot of thoughts about this that I am trying to make coherent. About how our lived experience can make us more cautious or suspicious of people’s motives. About how tiring it is to always have to give others the benefit of the doubt when we never get it. How we’ve been taught by society and lived experience to always center white people’s feelings and not make them uncomfortable, no matter what that does to us because we never know if and how the interaction will escalate and do us serious damage. Etc etc…
(I’ve been wanting to put something together on that last one – after George Floyd, we were told by so many “we didn’t realize it was that bad”. Our word on our lived experience wasn’t enough, video was needed before those willing to listen believed. We’ve spent lifetimes soft-pedaling the harm done to us I deference to others’ feelings. So many POC I know decided, fine, we’ll stop sugar coating and tell you the truth. and now we’re told we’re being hostile. Why, because we’re not being delicate about the harm being done to us anymore? there’s a lot to say and parse about that but I haven’t been able to pull it together the way I want. But I know you’ll understand what I am trying to say here.)
PJ
@sab:
Nobody is being run off. Some people just don’t want to deal with criticism. Which is their right. But literally no one is asking or pushing anyone to leave.
EthylEster
@Steve Finlay: empathy 101. But some folks just don’t get it.
TurnItOffAndOnAgain
@PJ:
Yeah, wasn’t that a common topic on this blog the last couple of weeks? Being able to take criticism with grace?
WaterGirl
@Eolirin: You have been so great about engaging with folks in this post today. Greatly appreciated! You are modeling what you are asking of us.
Spanish Moss
I would like to point out something that could make a commenter feel “unsafe”. Knowing that your comments could be described on the front page, with your nym, without your permission. I realize that this was a set of honest mistakes, but those words are still up there, on the front page.
Kay, please don’t go.
Miki
@Kay: Aw, Kay. Your toughness and brilliance and sharp, sharp, sharp mind with rock solid boots on the ground experience has both wowed and awed me but also made me think you don’t need my support, you can defend yourself, etc., etc., ad nauseum. I am so sorry. I should have spoken up. I should have had your back.
{{{{{{{Kay}}}}}}}
Don’t go. You’re needed here.
EthylEster
@UncleEbeneezer: Re: stepping back and shutting up, amen. I wish many people would just post and comment less. Read, yes, reflect yes, but remain silent, please. Most truly have little or nothing to contribute. That’s why we need a pie filter. At LGM I block a lot of people. It’s better for my mental health.
Joy in FL
Thank you, Eolirin, for taking time to express so clearly what is difficult enough for me simply to see, much less to express in words. Thank you.
EthylEster
@Kay: I come here infrequently and mostly for AL and BC these days. But before the pandemic, I was a regular (since GWB days) and I always read and reflected on your comments. Best of luck in your future work. Thanks for all you have contributed here over the years.
Ben Cisco
Thank you Eloirin!!
lowtechcyclist
@Professor Bigfoot:
I wasn’t the one who said anything about his demographic.
sab
@Elizabelle: I think I was one of the main offenders with planet eddie.
Not out of intolerance or hostility. Just because I am a 71 year old woman who didn’t understand non-binary gender. I understand that a person could feel totally uncomfortable with the gender they were assigned at birth. On the other hand I have been very confused with the concept of gender fluidity. Not hostile, just confused and ignorant. I have come a long way I hope, but still working on it.
I stupidly guessed on gender and guessed wrong, because non-binary folks don’t feel comfortable with gender labels. I couldn’t have guessed right, but that was their point.
I could say that that could have been a teaching moment for me, but that is just me making it all about me. But it certainly was a failure to communicate on both sides. And they have labelled me anti-trans every since. Anyone who goes back to look at those threads will see me being stupid and wrong. And years later here we are.
But where they lost me was talking about disrupting an all womens AA meeting. AA is supposed to be only about sobriety. Bringing gender issues in as additional issues is disruptive and just being a chaos agent. Those women needed a safe space.
Ohio Mom
@Adam L Silverman: I always take a look at your posts but rarely read the comments, at that point in the day I’m bushed. I had no idea you had trolls. Very disheartened to hear this.
WaterGirl
@Kay: Just wanted to say thank you for the gracious email you sent me, and to say again that I really hope you’ll stay.
Or take a break and then come back. Your presence would be missed by a lot of people.
Sister Golden Bear
@Adam L Silverman:
I admit I only glance the comments on your posts, since I typically get to them late in the evening, and didn’t realize that dynamic was happening. Obviously, that’s unacceptable as well.
@sab: I appreciate your apology and your effort to grow since then.
I’m not sure who “they” are. Or when that accusation has been leveled at you any time recently.
Honestly, I don’t remember the details, nor do I care to reopen that argument. I will say that expecting people to leave a significant part of themselves at the door—whether it’s AA or elsewhere—is asking them to be less than their full selves.
Also to repeat what @PJ: said, neither I, nor Eloirin, nor anyone else that I’m aware has called for Kay to leave. In fact, both Eloirin and I specifically stated that was not our desire.
rikyrah
There are posters in this thread whose stories I remember from 45’s term. I remember the pain and anxiety. I remember praying that they make it through. I can’t even quantify the absolute rage and hatred that I feel for those who got us into this current situation. The pain and deaths that will happen. The bodies will stack up all over the world. I am full of rage. It’s not healthy..I know that .😒😒😔😔
Geminid
@sab: I wish I could go back and read those threads again. I reread them at the time and I remember them differently than other people do, so I’d like to check my recollection. Last I looked though, they had been withdrawn. That of course was the poster’s right, but it makes the posts and comments hard to talk about with any certainty.
Ruckus
@Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony:
In some ways this country has been between a mess and a disaster for decades. Or longer. We of course had slavery, where human beings were kidnapped and brought and sold into slavery in this country. And because of that pure hate and greed won the day. We fixed the legality of that but we didn’t fix all the humans doing the damage, nor did we absolutely fix the attitude that caused this. And that is a big deal. I don’t know if the attitude still exists but it is quite possible that it does, at least in parts of the country. In parts of Los Angeles one can at least see the remains of that concept that existed and allowed it. And that wasn’t near the epicenter of the problem. I’ve traveled in all the states and worked in most of the states other than Alaska decades ago and the concept was alive and sick but not as noticeable in many parts of this country as it used to be a lot of decades ago.
Gin & Tonic
@Sister Golden Bear: Adam must spend a lot of time policing, because I’m there almost every night and seldom see trolls. That said, the comments there tend to be informative and valuable, on a host of foreign policy issues, not just the war on Ukraine.
Sister Golden Bear
@bluefoot:
Substitute “cis-het” for “white” and you’ve definitely described my own experiences.
FWIW, I’ll give a little example of always having to give others the benefit of the doubt. I get called “sir” almost every damn day, usually by people at the checkout stand, store clerks, etc. Usually, it seems to be unintentional — believe me, trans people definitely can tell when it is — and it’s something that I’ve resigned myself too, since I’m a trans woman who doesn’t “pass.” It’s still a constant death of a thousand cuts to be misgendered, and it’s exhausting to have to constantly decide whether it’s worth correcting them. Because some people are mortified, some are willing be educated, some are performatively apologetic, and some get really pissed off. It’s Schrödinger’s cis person.
Sister Inspired Revolver of Freedom
As a Disabled person I 100% endorse this message. As a Canadian, I don’t yet face the existential crisis that American Disabled face and I am fighting to keep it that way. But that is a privilege that can be stripped from me should our federal government change and is a huge problem at the provincial level and has been for a long time.
The Covid pandemic was a terrifying reality check for the Disabled and vulnerable. The sheer utilitarian view of the value of human life was horrifying to me. Now your current government has taken it to its ultimate nihilistic point. The weak and Disabled must die so the oligarchy can make even more money than it already has. It is grotesque. People will die and there is very little any of us can do about it. Unless you are willing to stare into that abyss even when you have the privilege of not having to, you cannot accept, let alone understand what is happening in your country.
Which is coming for my country. The Starlink Snowflake ❄ (H/T Adam) came right out and said it. Canada is the next target. The Monster of Mar a Lago wants our water and whatever else he can get his grubby little paws on. I continue to resist along with many others. But hostile powers are attacking my country and too few seem to realise it.
Eorilin, apologies if I spelled that wrong, is 100% correct. The majority of you have the privilege of playing the long game. Of playing politics the way you always have. That’s not good enough. Not now. These are NOT normal times. To let your hurt feelings take priority over the desperation of the moment is a moral failure and that is something you really have to face. Or Balloon Juice will cease to be the welcoming progressive place it has always been.
WaterGirl
@Gin & Tonic:
I don’t know many others do, but delete them all the time.
Just in the last 24 hours, for instance, I have probably deleted a dozen variations of the Lance Thruster nym that was banned.
He doesn’t just try to post on Adam’s – he seems to do it on all of them. Just trying to get a comment through somehow.
The content isn’t anti-semitic these days. Just repetitive comments about how we brought the awfulness of Trump and company on ourselves.
Ha Nguyen
@EthylEster:
YES! Too many people fail to heed the words of the master: “Talk less, smile more” – A. Burr
WaterGirl
@Sister Inspired Revolver of Freedom: We’re trying!
Ruckus
@PJ:
I’m a male and I agree with you on this. Because I’ve heard it as well.
@oldgold: Agree on this about Kay.
One of my points/concepts is that we all live in our own worlds, tiny as they may be. We mostly get exposed to other people’s worlds but we rarely get to see them fully, to see how they exist, what tools they use to maintain a place. Before I retired I of course knew that I lived a different life than many others, not necessarily better, and often not, but of course not always a struggle. And having been a mental health counselor long ago I saw that many people do have issues that many of us don’t see or experience. Humans often think, such as it is, that their life is the most important thing to everyone else. It very often isn’t even close. Your kids sure, but
grownadults?Ha Nguyen
@Kay:
I have always made a point of reading your posts and comments when I see them because I learn a lot from them. Unfortunately, because I have a lot of hobbies and work, I don’t always read every post nor notice who wrote what so I was quite unaware that people had been dissing you. I am so sorry for that. People can be really mean at times.
If you set up another site to continue writing, I would be very happy to subscribe to your site. Thanks for all your information in the past.
bluefoot
@Sister Golden Bear: Death of a thousand cuts is a good way to put it. Even when people have good intentions, it’s exhausting and can be hurtful. In some ways especially when you’re dealing with people who have good intentions because you’re not braced to protect yourself.
Adam L Silverman
@WaterGirl: You notice the 88s in the email address he’s now using? That’s the antisemitic part.
Gin & Tonic
@WaterGirl: I had no idea. I’m sorry to hear you have to do that.
Can’t you block by IP address rather than nym?
Gin & Tonic
@Adam L Silverman: And I’m sorry you have to deal with that shit too.
Ruckus
@Eolirin:
I am an old white man.
I do not have the experiences of a lot of people.
But. And it is a big, round but. I’ve had lots of gay friends, including one in the complex I live in and have for about a decade. My sister was gay. One of her relationships was with a black woman who I would have married without a second thought, if she wasn’t gay, that I have mentioned here, who died of Sickle Cell. She knew my sister for a number of years but they went their separate ways as friends and I got to see and know her for longer than my sister did. Her parents were very nice people.
Life is what you make of it. Sometimes it is good, some time great and sometimes it sucks donkey balls. (An old saying I picked up in the USN…)
If you work at not being a complete and utter jackass, life is a hell of a lot better.
YY_Sima Qian
@Kay: Uhh, I am very sorry to see you go!
Sister Golden Bear
@oldgold:
Offer not valid if you’re trans or non-binary.
I valued/value many of Kay’s insights, nor do I want to see her go — but I’m not gonna pretend that it’s raining lemonade when someone is pissing on me. You’ll notice that in today’s posts she refused any acknowledgment that she might have harmed planet eddie, and instead misrepresented what I and others said, and claimed what we did say were due to reasons that were completely unrelated. It really came across as DARVO. Which is not to say Kay hasn’t been targeted at time in ways that aren’t also problematic. But yeah, I and others notice who gets the benefit of the doubt and who doesn’t.
Spanish Moss
@WaterGirl: Thanks for letting us know that there was a pleasant exchange in the background. I have been feeling awful about this all day. And I am sorry to hear that a frontpager has said unkind things about you. I read most posts but somehow missed it. You are so nice, it is hard to imagine what they could have said.
Thanks for everything you do!
WaterGirl
@Gin & Tonic: If someone uses the same IP address consistently, we can have them blocked at the router so they will never reach WordPress.
He changes IP addresses.
It’s not a big hardship to ban him again when he uses a new iP. If it’s one of the previous IP addresses, you just click delete 12 times (or however many comments there are from him) and you’re done.
Kay
@Sister Golden Bear:
More bullshit. You’ve been gunning for me for months. Also? I don’t actually need your phony appreciation of my “insights” which is just another way to control what I say.
You won! The dissenter is gone. What are you still bitching about? Isn’t this like 7 solid hours you’ve been bashing me? Do you think that’s weirdly obsessive?
debit
@Sister Golden Bear: Thank you for this. I was sitting on my hands all day because I didn’t want to seem like I was piling on, but I noticed the same things you did.
FWIW, were I called out in a post, I would at least pause to consider if the call out had any merit before going in guns blazing.
WaterGirl
@Steve Finlay:
Smart. I had never thought about it that way.
WaterGirl
I would really like to thank every single person who participated in this thread in good faith today!
(Which is pretty much everybody.)
WaterGirl
@Spanish Moss: Thank you!
Ruckus
@Sister Golden Bear:
I learned quite some time ago that I sometimes mis gendered people so I stopped saying anything along gender lines, such as ma’m or sir. Some people expect the ma’m or sir but for me not saying it seemed better. I’ve been doing this for some time, even back when I was on the road every week for 8+ months of the year, when I worked in professional sports. It took that unknowing mistaken identity bit out of the conversation. If it was somewhere like a restaurant and folks had name tags, I’d use that. Worked well.
Kay
@Sister Golden Bear:
You “value” none of my “insights” – its all passive aggressive bullshit to set up.your 50th attack on me today. I mean, my God, can you even have an honest fight? You have to drape it all in this sanctimonious scolding?
Please. Sell this bs to someone who might buy it. That ain’t me.
Eolirin
@Ruckus: Thank you for doing this.
Kay
9:12 PM. This post went up at 10:30 AM. So this “political blog” spent one entire nearly 12 hour day attacking one dissenting commenter.
Nah. Its not an echo chamber! No sir.
WaterGirl
@debit: It’s been nice to see your nym a few times lately.
debit
@WaterGirl: Thank you! I’ve been trying to re-engage a bit. And I’ve appreciated the discussions about moving forward, especially the efforts put forth by you and John.
Kay
@debit:
Oh you’ll never be targeted for a 12 hour bash session. I’m literally the only person this has ever been done to on this blog. Its meant as a warning – repeat the party line or the BJ police force will come after you but not even honestly – they’ll drape it all in this treacly, saccharine bullshit about how they “value” you, they just want you to STFU about things that upset them.
way2blue
FWIW. Netflix has a British detective series, Missing You, based on a Harlan Coben book. One of the main characters is a trans person—who from my very limited experience—seems authentic. Especially during a fairly intense scene near the end. If anyone else has seen it—I’d be curious to hear their opinion.
WaterGirl
@Kay: Kay, I’m the one who put up the post. I explained where I was coming from and I thought you and I had gotten back to a good place.
So if anyone is coming after you, it has nothing to do with this post.
Do some people get pissed at you? Yes, some do. Do lots of people value your presence here? Yes, they do.
If you feel the need to leave, and I hope you don’t, please don’t let it be because you think there is something nefarious about this post related to you, or that some ill will that was behind it.
I’m the one who put it up, and I promise you that was not the case.
debit
@Kay: Kay, if I was, I would ask myself why. And even if I concluded that it was without merit and unfair, I would at least express remorse for having hurt someone, even inadvertently.
LAC
@WaterGirl: thank you for the posting. It has been illuminating and enlivening. And thank you, Sister Golden Bear for your input.
Ruckus
@Kay:
I wish that you would stay.
We are all different, not robots, we are human. We all make mistakes – hell that’s one of the things that make us human. We even have a word for it – mistakes.
And I’m NOT saying you did.
We ALL have issues, points of view and I’d be a complete ass if I said anyone is perfect, especially me. I doubt we would be human if we didn’t have issues. Sure, it would nice if we at least made fewer of those mistake things, but then – we are human.
And I’m not saying you did.
I’ve seen people come and go and for some that wasn’t a loss. If you go we all lose. I was a mental health counselor, as I’ve stated here before, and one of the issues we discussed in group about our patients was that we are all different, we come at issues differently, we hide from different things, we shout different things out loud, we think about the same people differently. Hell that’s one thing that makes humanity, we AREN’T robots. We have brains, which ALL of us sometimes seem to turn off occasionally. We need differences to learn about humanity and how to live within it. Because it’s a big club, and it is a far better club because it is big and has different sides and directions from which to see it. If we let it, it gives us differing perspectives. Which is often necessary to live reasonably, and sometimes to actually stay living. It is a different life for each one of us, no matter how well we fit (or don’t) in the bigger picture. Not everyone gets that, some seem to think we should be more alike. I’m not one of them.
If you can, please stay.
Kay
@debit:
They’ve been passively aggressively and dishonestly attacking me on it for a year. This is just the culmination of the lunch room clique’s campaign to get me to shut up – about Gaza, about feckless and weak Democrats, about sexism and abortion and a whole roster of other disfavored subjects. There are about 4 things left here anyone can talk about – everything controversial or upsetting or, ya know, TOPICAL, is strictly policed and shut down.
But you can re!ax. They won. I’m defending myself here because there’s an entire post devoted to attacking me, but this place is too full of shit for me. Its all self congratulatory masturbation on how great we are and how horrible everyone else is. Yuck. Doesn’t appeal to me. Also women on here get tons more shit for dissenting than men do – its gross and sexist but no one ever “calls that out” except me.
Ramalama
Well holy shitbird, this thread.
Ruckus
@Ramalama:
Short. And to the point.
I like.
VeniceRiley
So many thoughtful comments. Best thread in ages. I am listening.
Kay
@Ruckus:
You seem like a lovely, wise person. I’m glad you still post, but I can’t. This endless, endless rehash of who is in the cool kids club and who is not bores me. I’m too old to comply with directives on what I can and cannot discuss in order to “fit in”. I just don’t care to do that anymore.
I might go to Tik Tok – its fun and egalitarian and there’s lots and lots of liberal women mouthing off and I’m not afraid of the scary, ooga booga ” Chinese”. My Chinese overlords over there are a lot less scary than the home grown tech bros who bought my government, actually.
Eolirin
@Kay: Please count the percentage of posts that even reference you on this thread. It’s extremely low.
There’s no 12 hour bash session. None of the point of anything that I said was about attacking you. I went out of my way to make sure I was including the way you’ve been treated, and to owning up to my own failures in that regard for a reason. How people, myself included, have treated you is just as much a part of the dynamic that I was illuminating as how you’ve treated us is.
All of it matters, not just the part that’s ours.
But because I was the one saying it, I can very definitively say, it was never about you even if it involved you. It was always about us.
Ffs I spent waaaaay more words on Mix, and looking back on them, I actually was dragging Mix a bit, and I think it looks even worse than I intended, because I made it look like some of the frustrations I have with some of the things we’ve been focused on collectively are all falling solely on him, when I actually meant them to apply more broadly. That was too ambiguous, and I should have cleaned it up more.
My only defense there is that I was not party to the decision to front page this, and given when I initially posted it, barely expected it to be seen. It didn’t get the seventh edit pass it probably needed.
But look. Your comments hurt Eddie, they hurt me, they hurt Sister Golden Bear. Eddie shared they cried themselves to sleep for two weeks after that. The way the community reacted by shrugging and moving on still continues to hurt them, to hurt me, to hurt us.
I have absolutely no issue with accepting that you were also hurt. I have absolutely no issue with wanting to give you the grace to hurt, and to apologize for my role in whatever ways contributed to that.
But I’m not willing to let you center yourself over something that isn’t about you, and in the process once again displace our lived experience in favor of yours, erasing us. That was at the core of the problem the first time around too.
That is at the core of what I have been trying to get us to be better about. It’s why I said what I said in the first place. And you are not special in this regard. We are all guilty of it and we all need to be better about it. At most you’re a convenient example that is directly relevant to my own experiences, which is what I needed to be able to say what I said and make it authentic. Other people would have had different instances.
But you absolutely do not get to claim that this is a coordinated and dedicated attack on you and you alone, designed to make an example of you, when your involvement in it is just a tiny part of a broader declaration of our pain and of the ways that we feel unheard and unseen. You do not get to make this be all about you and have that stand uncontested.
I want to hold space for you too. But you have to be willing to hold space for us as well for this to work.
This is the last thing I have to say on this.
dnfree
@Kay: I have valued your comments and hope you won’t leave. I don’t think this was at all intended as a tribunal about you, although I can see why you might feel that way.
I also value Eolirin’s thoughtful comments and I think the topic is worth discussing.
Kay
@Eolirin:
Eolirin, I don’t believe you. I think you object to things I write because you disagree with me and/or find what I write uncomfortable.
There’s no “discussion” in this thread – it’s a bunch of people falling all over themselves to congratulate themselves on how “liberal” and “tolerant” they are while targeting one person (me) for yet another stern scolding. You used me as the intolerant example and have been driving that point home now for hours and hours. Just have a fucking fight. You don’t have to cover it in all these gauzy layers – I mean, you’ve been bashing me for fucking 12 hours. Now you want to sell me this bullshit about how you “value” me? Nonsense. Stop patronizing me.
You won, man. I’m gone. Message received.
Kay
@dnfree:
Well, you get back to me when Balloon Juice pins a thread for an entire fucking day with the subject being how much you, dnfree, suck. You let me know how you “take” that. Oh, and make sure they add insult to injury by murmuring phony, smarmy nonsense about how youre valued” WHILE they’re attacking you. Because it’s not Balloon Juice unless some man is patronizing and lecturing me and ordering me to tone it down.
Again, and I want to make this clear, Fuck That.
Kay
@Eolirin:
You wrote a post and several comments attacking me personally and by name, and the lunchroom clique piled on, as per usual. Now you demand I not defend myself or I’m making it about me? So you can say anything you want about me and if I respond its “making it about me”? Okey doke. Good discussion.
WTFGhost
I’m going to call this out, too. For me, it’s not about “whiteness” at all – I’m a white man. I’m also weirdly disabled – you could look at me all day, and think I’m normal and then catch me “acting strangely,” and suddenly, you think I’ve been *fooling* you all this time, just by trying to be normal enough I don’t get shunned immediately.
There’s no real safety, and people often don’t understand that they’re not being safe allies. Now, for disabled folks, like me, that’s not a big deal – we get a bit used to it. For folks who are going to be facing a lack of safety all the time, you come to a liberal blog, and you expect folks to be a bit woke about things. You expect folks to think about what it’s like to be different, weird, etc., at least the very basics. And it’s not like y’all don’t get *anything* – you’re all willing to call out “that ‘officer involved shooting’ looked bogus to me, too!”
But what you don’t do, generally speaking, is try to engage and accept on race, and understand and accept the painful stuff that comes when you try to engage on race. You don’t let it be real – which is reasonable, because it hurts, but, until you come out the other side, you can’t stop the hurting. You have to let it be, and let it be real. Eventually, it doesn’t hurt as much – you’ve purged out the shameful bits from yourself, and, you’re ready to engage, and let it be real. You often still feel a bit guilty, and a bit dirty, but, it’s okay, you can handle it. And once you can handle it, you understand better. It matters.
It really isn’t easy, but it really, really, matters. It’s trivially easy to be a terrible ally, without realizing it.
Kayla Rudbek
@ArchTeryx: and I would say that the patent prosecution and patent examiner communities have a lot of autistic and/or neurodivergent people as well.
Note that I have never been formally diagnosed, but when your own mother watches Bones because “Tempe Brennan reminds her of me”, I am pretty sure that if I ever requested diagnosis as autistic, I would be on the spectrum.
Darkrose
@Kay:
Eorlin and Sister Golden Bear have been remarkably patient and even-handed, despite your refusal to acknowledge that you’ve hurt people here. They’re not men. If you’re at a point where you feel like it’s okay to misgender people for any reason, you probably need to step away.
HopefullyNotcassandra
@Ohio Mom: I got it.
@Ohio Mom:
WTFGhost
@Kay: Kay, I don’t like you a lot, but, I respect you for your passion and concern. Sometimes, I think you’re wrong, or, are too hurtful about some topics – and, you think *I* am wrong, sometimes, or hurtful, etc., I’m sure, and that’s kinda what it means to be friends who have passions.
If you’ve been the subject of posts, that sucks – especially if it was the passive aggressive sort of posting where no one actually says what you do wrong. I get that all the time, because there’s nothing I’m actually doing wrong. I’m just weird. No one can explain *what* I’m doing wrong. I’m just… weird.
But you, I get. I don’t always enjoy you, but, you’re very real – and that matters to me. And if you’re hurting, that matters too, and it should matter to your friends, but… well, blogs aren’t always friends.
*I* like to see you posting here, even if I don’t like what you say. You care, and if you say something, it reflects that caring, even if, sometimes, I think you come to conclusions I wouldn’t.
That said, one of my best friends *ever* challenged me on a fundamental point of philosophy – and caused me to understand her point of view to the point that I could fully understand it. I still disagreed, but I understood, and that mattered too.
Anyway: I like having you around. You matter, to me, at least.
WTFGhost
@Balloon Juice Recently: All respect intended, but, it *is* true you don’t get to decide if you’re a *good* ally. It’s hard to be a good ally. Sometimes you need to eat a measure of crap, and just let it go, because that’s what being a good ally means, sometimes. You let people vent. You learn. You get a better sense of what it means.
Seriously: sometimes, I just need people to remember I’m in pain, a lot of pain, and just have some *patience*. They never do – my ability to pretend not to be in pain proves that I never mess up, and am never helpless and hurting.
Well – you’re never going to remember that about me. I’m going to need someone to say “Hey, this ‘ghost guy is okay, he’s just overwhelmed sometimes,” and, you won’t remember it.
It’s okay – because I know I’m weird. I know that sometimes, what I say, do, and look like, aren’t normal. But that’s not like being Black, or Hispanic, or Asian, etc., because I get what I do is weird, you see? It’s not like, just looking at me, everyone thinks I’m different, maybe more stupid, maybe less educated, etc..
In fact, anyone who hangs with me for a week or longer, when I’m not being crushed by depression, walks away thinking I’m an effing genius, because, no offense intended, but I am; not to my credit, I was just born that way.
But they’ll decide I’m a totally effed up dude, who fooled them for years, the moment they see me act strangely.
So I get it – to me, it’s a bit like having lots of friends, until they learn you’re a Black man, or something. Except, it’s like I can *pass*, so no one knows I’m Black or whatever, until they learn it, and then, for some reason, everything goes horribly wrong, each and every time.
I’d love to say you’re a good ally, each and every day, but I doubt *I* am a good ally, each and every day, you see? And I don’t mean it’s because you’re weak, or uncaring, or unloving, or anything like that – you think I’d take those labels on my own self? I just mean, being a good ally is a constant struggle, and it isn’t something that becomes miraculously easier.
So I don’t want to bullshit you, and say you’re doing all right, but I also want you to understand, I get the struggle to be a good ally. It’s not easy. I knew a trans man for years before I finally had an epiphany, that if I woke up with tits and an vulva (“vagina” is the opening – vulva is the external parts) I’d still be a man. I can’t say why – but I knew if someone told me I should just learn to be happy with tits and a vulva, I’d want to hurt them in retaliation for the hurt they were giving me!
And finally, I had an idea of what it means to be an ally. To stand up and say “don’t you hurt my friend – he’s not normal, but he’s a good person, and I’ll do my best to harm you if you try to harm him.” And if “he” has a vulva, that’s not my concern. Neither would it be yours, if you realized you challenged a whole bar room full of brawlers, eh?
It means being willing to die. Yeah, to die. The only thing worse than an n-word is an n-word lover, the kind who freedom ride, the kind who who stand down the KKK with a double barreled shotgun and a pistol.
Are you always ready to do that? If not, then eat “I’m not a perfect ally,” and taste its bitterness. Then, promise you’ll do better tomorrow, try to be a better ally tomorrow, and, sooner or later, you’ll taste “I’m kind-of an ally, and I’m learning” and, believe it or not, it really does taste good… if only because it’s so much less bitter than “I’m not a perfect ally.”
WTFGhost
@Sister Golden Bear: Yikes. I’ve been in places, where people should have been safe, but weren’t. I hope you can find a way to feel, and be, safe here, but, if you can’t, well, I’ve been learning how important, and how hard, it is to keep *me* safe. So the last thing I’d do is tell you to leave yourself vulnerable. But I have come to value your input. I hope you find safety and happiness here.
I care about you – however many other folks love you here, too, I think you matter.
FluxAmbassador
@Eolirin: I mostly lurk here, but what you wrote that WaterGirl highlighted caught my eye because of *how* self-reflective it was. Anyone can talk about how they’ve been hurt – and they deserve to do so! – but you took the extra, uncommon, and uncomfortable step of looking at your own actions.
And you’ve handled yourself with grace, dignity, and aplomb throughout this entire thread. Anyone who can’t see that this was about asking grace for and giving grace to all is working – consciously or not – to miss the point.
I appreciate the time you put in to making something this good.
Kay
@Darkrose:
You have no idea who I was even talking to yet you’re more than willing to accuse me of yet another transgression and to order me to “step away”. Or what? You’re going to spend another 12 hours trashing me on the internet?
Look, the blog is yours. It’s 100% lockstep clique now. You can put away the billy club and stop walking the policing beat.
WTFGhost
@Kay: Wow. And ouch. If you feel that way, I’m really sorry, and I wish I could make it better for you here. As I hope I said earlier, I *value* you. Even when you annoy me.
Kay
@WTFGhost:
Forgive me – I’m confused. Didn’t you just finish telling me you don’t like me? So is it really an honest thing to say that you “value” me? I frankly think it’s fucked up that you feel the need to do this phony expression of concern. Who is this for? Me? Am I supposed to be impressed at how “caring” you are? I think it’s fake, and pandering, so no, it doesn’t impress me. You’re allowed to dislike me – it’s fine. I know this may be shocking but I too may dislike YOU. Often dislike is reciprocal, as here.
Darkrose
@Kay: My response to you was my first post on this thread; I haven’t spent 12 hours trashing you or anyone.
And wow, “billy club”? Telling a Black woman that I’m “walking the policing beat”? I understand that you’re feeling attacked, but doubling down when folks have already expressed that some things you’ve said have been hurtful is why I suggested–not ordered–that you might need to step away for a bit. You’re lashing out at everyone.
Kay
@Darkrose:
Darkrose, I’m just wondering why all this “caring” doesn’t extend to me? Everyone on this thread is happily expressing their opinions about me, weighing my “value”, parsing my every word looking for offense, yet I’m supposed to ignore all that and buy into this? I’m not a fucking doormat. I don’t exist so everyone on this blog can target me for their generalized angst.
It doesn’t ring true to me. I think it’s all passive aggressive and dishonest – it’s been going on here for a year where there’s a kind of Greek chorus of disapproval sniping at me. I won’t engage on those terms. It’s disrespectful and pandering and whatever else I am, (obviously very very bad) I’m straightforward. I expect that to be reciprocated. It never is.
I get emails WHILE I’m commenting here with people saying they’re sorry and they sympathize. I guess it’s too scary to just support me publicly, THEY might be targeted in the next 24 hour pile on. It’s fucked up. IMO this place is ruined. No one feels comfortable just being themselves – it’s all this elaborate spinning around simple issues of dislike and disagreement because someone told them they’re weren’t allowed to dislike someone without it being a civil rights issue. Not a healthy, open place. A place where a whole other narrative goes on behind what is posted publicly.
Kay
@Darkrose:
Too and this is important – I have no way of knowing you are a Black woman until you tell me. I mean, you just scolded me for (supposedly) misgendering (although that was actually to a man) so…you’ll have to tell me.
Kay
PBK
@Kay: That last line is a perfect, concise summary of what I’ve picked up on here even before the July debacle. Glad I’m not imagining it.
Will very much miss your contributions here.
MomSense
If passive aggressive were a thread. I miss the days when jackals would just be open and honest about how they felt about other commenters instead of this dysfunctional mess.
Some of you presume to speak for entire communities. You don’t. Yesterday Luvvie posted a video of Hakeem Jeffries and said he was spineless, an eel, and didn’t have an ounce of leadership but some of you are sooooooo sure you know how every black person feels on every issue. What is now happening here is that if someone disagrees with your issue, it’s not just a disagreement it’s now proof of that person’s character flaw, bigotry, racism, etc. That construct is offensive especially when the opinions in the wider world are more diverse even among the communities you state that you are defending.Then a whole bunch of others swarm in to join in the denouncing of the bad commenter and pronouncing how much better they are.
It will become a closed loop. It is already mostly a closed loop. You will become even more out of sync with the outside world and even more shocked and less able to cope with what is happening outside this space.
Good luck to you. I wish you well but I want no part of it.
Kay
@PBK:
Thanks. I appreciate it. This was a year long effort to get rid of me in retaliation for my alleged offenses against planet Eddie, and it worked.
Mistermix was just the excuse to the relaunch it. That’s the behind the scenes truth. WG and John wouldn’t punish me because they didn’t think I did what was alleged and that could not stand. Hence this bizarre fucking tribunal a year later where I’m again found guilty by people who dislike that I had the temerity to disagree with planet Eddie on their depiction of feminism AND SAID SO. Because plenty of people disagreed and wouldn’t say so, for obvious reasons. Thanks for saying it publicly. It’s not easy, I know.
PBK
@MomSense: Excellent observations. Will miss your ideas as well if you decide to leave.
PBK
@Kay: You’re welcome. Best of luck to you and your family. Will keep an eye out for you if you decide to comment again.
siddhartha
Ah yes. That’s what we’re doing as minoritized folks, just “parsing my every word looking for offense” NOT that, ahem, those words are demonstrative of and reinforce larger structures that have been around for centuries. I would just like to say QED. All voices have done their best to present rational and humane analysis. And DESPITE that careful work, a white woman is simply allowed to impugn ALL of it. And while Kay’s work and perspective, based on her expertise is valued, she does not seem to consider OUR perspective and expertise as of equal value. That’s simply putting her up for a “tribunal” (only someone who has never been in an actual tribunal can say that; please remember, not everyone here is American). The white privilege that allows someone to use that self-aggrandizing language on a blog (not even in real life) that is simply asking for self-reflection–you know, the most basic principle that all of western civilization (philosophy at least) is supposedly based on. I have a sincere question: would any black woman or woman of color be allowed to continue here if we simply told others that they were full of shit, or dismissed what others have to say by using whatever self-spectacularizing, self-victimizing, self-aggrandizing white fantasy of persecution is operative here, a fantasy that is couched in the language of protecting women but appropriates the imagery of actual things that happen to black people, trans people, people of color, and non-American people (you know, those groups that also comprise of women)?
schrodingers_cat
Yes that’s true.
Kay in her own words to me not that long ago. It was Jan 28th.
Disagreeing is not enough, she has to belittle me. She has no idea how I came to my conclusions nor how big my circle is or what my daily news feed is.
schrodingers_cat
@siddhartha: I have appreciated your thoughtful comments in this thread and others. You are wise, like your namesake.
My blog is currently dormant but I want to revive it and am looking for advice on how to make it inclusive of a diversity of viewpoints. I would love your input. You can reach me at my blog email.
[email protected].
Thanks so much.
WaterGirl
I hope we can all take a breath and sit with some of the important things that have been said in this post and in the comments.
I’m sure no one wants to say anything they will regret.
Closing comments on this for a day or so, will open them back once we all have time to take a breath.