[ETA: Events, dear boy, events! See the discussion of the rapidly developing fallout from today’s disgraceful WH meeting with President Zelensky in the comments. And also this cartoon:]
Sir Keir Starmer has returned from his first visit to the U.S. following Trump’s re-election. He was attempting to shore up what Churchill called the “Special Relationship” between the two countries (a Special Relationship that seems to matter a lot more over here). His meeting seems to have gone better than most people expected, even after Starmer decided to correct the president (and then later the vice president) to his face in front of the press. “Whatever they pay him over there,” said Trump, “he earned it.”
Starmer isn’t a charmer—he’s a stiff, timid lawyer who really is only capable of standing up to people in his own party—but it probably helped that he came bearing one of the things Trump loves best: an invitation to hang out with Actual Royalty.
Robert Hutton, writing in The Critic, recapped this exchange in an article titled “Visiting Great-Uncle Don”:
You may have sat with an aged grandparent, listening to them rambling on trying to pick the right moment to interject. Perhaps there was something you needed to persuade them to agree to: a visit to the doctor, a signature on a power of attorney, or Article Five of the Nato Treaty.
The prime minister was the latest in a queue of visitors to the president’s study, so tastefully decorated in the style I think of as “School of Fredo Corleone”. Like grandchildren who have heard that the house is about to be signed over to some Russian toyboy, European leaders have been reminding the president who his real friends are. Of course, you can’t just come out and say that. You have to be patient and flatter him. Starmer had brought along a gift that no one else could offer: “A letter from the king!”
The president was as thrilled as any centenarian receiving their royal telegram. “Am I supposed to read it right now?” he asked. Usually, these moments happen behind closed doors. But then usually, the recipient can remember what happened last week. “I’ve got to tell him what your reaction is!” the prime minister replied, bedside manner fully engaged.
If you’ve ever watched Netflix’s high-end soap opera The Crown, you’ll have seen how the government and the monarchy work together to roll out the red carpet for presidents to get the U.S. to do something the U.K. needs done. Or in this case, to not do something, like slapping massive tariffs on an already sclerotic economy, or dumping the Ukrainians. This sucking-up approach isn’t really very satisfying, but as political commentator/ actor/ lawyer Alex Andreou notes, what else can be done?
So far as I can see, criticism of Starmer boils down to a wish that Trump were not President and that UK didn’t have to deal with US. We all wish it. It’s sadly not so.
We’re in the same car. He’s driving. The aim is to keep him engaged, get him to slow down. The aim is not to crash. That’s it. 1/2
— Alex Andreou (@sturdyalex.bsky.social) February 28, 2025 at 9:22 AM
Zelenskyy is meeting with Trump today. That’s all that matters. The coordination shows a deep seriousness. Macron Monday. Starmer yesterday. Zelenskyy today. Keep whispering to hush the Putinists. Be the last person he talks to. The brief was to gain time and counsel him into a softer mood. 2/2
— Alex Andreou (@sturdyalex.bsky.social) February 28, 2025 at 9:22 AM
On the economy, Starmer came away with the outlines of a limited deal on tech, science, and AI. Whether that’s worth the crumpled McDonald’s napkin it was Sharpied on remains to be seen. On Ukraine—well, if you’ve been watching the hideous display at the White House meeting with Zelensky today, there was no softer mood in evidence from Trump.
And the mood over here is darkening, too. Commenter Asparagus Aspersions, who’s based in France, left a comment in Anne Laurie’s overnight thread that chimes with what I’m seeing and hearing in the UK. In part:
…despite everything, up until now the US has been considered a country that stands by its commitments, regardless of who is in office. And even in T’s first term, we were not considered a totally unreliable ally, just one that had to be “handled”. . . .
It’s completely different now. Every year my sector has received US government grants. We spend the money, and then receive the payment. It’s never been a problem, because this is money that has already been appropriated. Now we can’t rely on the US to pay the money that it’s already awarded us. . . .
I have been sitting in meetings for the last month where people discuss how US can’t be relied on to pay its commitments, how it can no longer be considered stable, nor can it be considered friendly, or even neutral. The view from over here is basically that the US is an out-of-control autocracy somewhere between Hungary and Russia.
See also the headline of this op-ed from the Financial Times: “The U.S. Is Now the Enemy of the West”.
I moved to the U.K. in 2005, during the second GW Bush administration, and thought at the time that our reputation abroad couldn’t get any worse. How innocent we all were, eh?
WV Blondie
I want to be somewhere else, outside U.S. boundaries.
Eunicecycle
I have never been so ashamed of my country.
Juju
I never thought I’d actually miss GW Bush.
Elizabelle
Sorry, Rose. Events just overtook your carefully prepared post on Starmer.
Zelenskyy was not groveling or taking too much of The Felon’s … diplomacy.
John S.
@Eunicecycle:
We are clearly no longer the “good guys”.
Rose Judson
@Elizabelle: I did mention that in passing toward the end of the post.
@Juju: Same, friend, same.
I should note that I’ve also seen quite a few fresh FUCK TRUMPs spray painted on walls, especially when I was in London last week. When it becomes FUCK AMERICANS I will start to really worry.
MobiusKlein
@Elizabelle: I saw that – Trump and Vance double teaming Z, not letting him speak, disrespecting him…
WTF USA
Hildebrand
We are in London – yeesh, the BBC is shredding Trump for being such a spectacular and dangerous wanker.
catfishncod
@Hildebrand: Well, at least *someone* is shredding him for the obvious.
He just showed the whole world what his real concept of “dealmaking” is: dominance display. Zelenskyy didn’t roll over and bark on command, therefore he’s unworthy of a “deal”.
satby
I was so angered by the felon’s treatment of Zelenskyy I just donated again to United24, the Ukrainian government’s crowdsourced fundraiser. It’s not anywhere near enough, but that POS doesn’t speak for this American. Fuck Trump.
Rose Judson
@Hildebrand: That’s good to hear. Last time I checked in with them they were being carefully neutral. Those fucknozzles teaming up on Zelensky must have been the last straw.
Sir Ed Davey, leader of Britain’s other other party, gets the tone exactly right in this post from a couple minutes ago:
Dorothy A. Winsor
I am embarrassed to be an American.
zhena gogolia
@satby: I’m on a monthly to Razom now.
Elizabelle
Rose, I am thinking the Trump-Zelenskyy meeting may have been broadcast live on Fox and other cable outlets. I do not know for sure, since I don’t watch telly.
But: I wonder if Zelenskyy has managed to break through, go over the heads of our courtesan media press corps?
Elizabelle
@Dorothy A. Winsor: I am delighted to not be a MAGAt, or anyone who considered for ten seconds ever voting for Trump or anyone like him.
Trump is disgracing us.
You and I and so many others did the right thing.
We have too many voters who either supported Trump or were too immature or checked out to even vote at all. Everyone around the world is getting a lesson in why those actions are a bad thing.
Deputinize Eurasia from the Kuriles to St Petersburg
Wife’s PFO repair went well – she’s recovering nicely as they monitor.
Nursing staff has expressed fear that vaccinations are going to largely be a thing of the past, and wife is wondering whether the goal is to reduce the population.
Baud
@Deputinize Eurasia from the Kuriles to St Petersburg:
Glad to hear it went well.
Josie
@satby:
I just did the same thing. I think it would be wonderful if many people donated in the wake of that awful scene in the White House. We need to show the Ukrainian people that Americans give a damn.
Time travelin
That royal visit will not happen. The protests would be massive in London.
Rose Judson
@Elizabelle: I sure hope so.
Multiple UK political commentators on Bluesky now demanding Starmer rescind the state visit invite. Very different tone just from this morning, when they were wrinkling their noses but understood why it had to happen.
The King should cancel it and then announce a tour of Canada.
Spanky
@Deputinize Eurasia from the Kuriles to St Petersburg: Not reduce the population, per se, but to cull the unuseables – the old, the infirm, those who can’t be Good Workers.
Baud
@Dorothy A. Winsor:
“Trump is embarrassing Americans.”
No offense to you, because I know you have a good heart, but IMHO people who aren’t us don’t care how we feel.
Spanky
@Baud: “Fuck our feelings”? That somehow sounds familiar.
MisterForkbeard
@satby: I’m astounded that their thuggery was THIS OBVIOUS and they decided to air it on national television. No wonder Zelenskyy bailed on them, the press conference, and the “deal”.
The deal was essentially “give us the rights to your still existing land and minerals and Russia can have everything else they want”, so good on Zelenskyy for giving them the finger.
Betty Cracker
Watched a few more videos of Trump & Vance’s attempted ambush of Zelensky, I didn’t think I could possibly hate those vile turds even more than I did when I woke up this morning. Boy, was I wrong.
I am so deeply ashamed to be an American right now. If I wasn’t sick and too old to start over, if Bill and I didn’t have aging parents and aunties, etc., nearby to look after, I think I’d try to leave this shithole.
But you know what? The nuclear-armed right-wing kleptocracy that 49.8% of American voters empowered can reach anybody anywhere, so there’s no safe haven. Ask Greenland. Hell, ask Canada, our good neighbor to the north that the demented old orange shitbag keeps threatening.
Fuck it. We’ll fight them here. And if we win, there must be a reckoning.
rikyrah
sigh…
I hate everyone who put us in this position.
I honestly do.
No forgiveness possible.
I actually love this country, and I am disgusted at our loss of status in the world
All for muthaphuckin’ White Supremacy.
MazeDancer
@Hildebrand: So good to hear. Counting on the world to maintqin reality on that schoolyard, er, Oval Office double time attack.
Trump and Vance were embarrassing. And, no doubt, the media will talk about how forceful and many man they were.
Elizabelle
@Rose Judson:
OMG, yes. Charles needs something to put a spring in his step. His late mother would approve!
zhena gogolia
@Baud: Embarrassment is my foremost emotion (followed by horror, fear, rage, etc.). I wish it weren’t so.
I’ve been embarrassed since the first time he was president, but now it’s just — GAAAAAHHHHH
Dorothy A. Winsor
@Baud: I do kind of care that my neighbors have said the same thing. I take it as a sign of their horror at Trump
Rose Judson
@Betty Cracker:
I know a smallish UK city with canals full of birds. Just saying.
zhena gogolia
@Betty Cracker: Pretty much how I feel.
ETA: Except that I can’t bear to watch any videos or even read about what happened.
I knew it would happen if he won the election. I kept saying that night, “I DON’T WANT TO SEE WHAT HE’S GOING TO DO. I DON’T WANT TO SEE WHAT HE’S GOING TO DO.”
Betty Cracker
@Rose Judson:
Yes, he should.
Matt McIrvin
@Rose Judson: Nish Kumar is touring the US right now and I saw him perform in Boston. He was as incandescently angry as I’d expect but he clearly knew he was performing to a sympathetic audience. Ended by saying “we still love most of you…”
What I’m not sure is whether he’ll ever be able to come back here again.
Spanky
If you don’t feel like adding more outrage on to what has already accrued in this half-day, skip to the next comment.
WaPo headline: Trump scolds Zelensky in Oval Office
Sub headline:
Trump tells Ukraine’s president that he has ‘no cards’
Rose Judson
@Matt McIrvin: At the rate things are going I’m wondering if I will be able to go again. At least with the guarantee of being let back in.
Nelle
@Josie: Just donated to Ukrainian Red Cross (a friend’s mother used to head that). You’ve got the right idea and it is worth highlighting it, in response to the disgusting dominating display today in the Oval Office.
Doug R
@Betty Cracker: You’re welcome to try to come to Canada. We have a social security treaty so you should get your benefits.
Eunicecycle
@Deputinize Eurasia from the Kuriles to St Petersburg: sort of like Ebenezer Scrooge. I doubt even sending 3 spirits to these assholes would change their minds.
Bg
What a shitshow. I’m ashamed for our country. Zelensky handled it about as well as anyone could but I’m 99% sure it was a preplanned performance the two of them put on for Putin
Elizabelle
C-Span: clip of one of the confrontations:
Trump-Zelensky Oval Office Meeting Erupts in Anger
David Anderson
How quickly can South Korea, Taiwan, and at least one country in the eastern flank of NATO develop deployable nukes? (I am assuming tremendous amount of at least French assistance)
MagdaInBlack
Well, My trump-luvin’ body tech just came up to the office crowing about trump throwing Zelenskyy out of the White House.
I left the office for a walk around the building.
Elizabelle
C-Span: the full shitshow. Zelenskyy’s meeting with The Felon and what’s his name.
President Trump Meets with Ukrainian President Zelensky
Nelle
I know that the US breaks agreements all the time. Just ask the Lakota. But the Budapest Memorandum was an agreement to honor and defend Ukraine’s borders if they would give up their nuclear weapons, when the Soviet Union broke up (correct me if I have it wrong). I thought that they had the third largest nuclear arsenal. Russia also signed that. No one will ever give up nuclear weapons again.
Elizabelle
@Bg: You are probably right.
But. The American people (the sane ones, especially) — and the world — got to see that confrontation too.
They will have different reactions than Putin might.
Hildebrand
The BBC is starting to temper their initial reactions – I wish they wouldn’t, they were bang on being appalled at Trump’s knavery.
That said, they’ve still got some folks still expressing how gobsmacked they are and how Ukraine must be supported.
Elizabelle
@Hildebrand: The BBC’s reporting partner is CBS. They may be doing that, as well.
Tim C
Also, Atlanta Fed forecasts a -1.5% contraction in GDP this quarter.
atlantafed.org/cqer/research/gdpnow
YY_Sima Qian
My younger daughter woke up in the middle of the night crying, it took me a while to get her back to sleep. Made the bad decision of sneaking a peek at X & this here site, & now I can’t f*cking sleep. I commented yesterday that 5+ weeks in I’ve already exhausted my ability to be shocked by the words & deeds of the Trump gang. I was wrong. The entire build up toward the final blow up is some of the most shameful & vile display in the history of human diplomacy! I can only hope having the clips play on repeat on European MSM & plastered all over social media will cement European support for Ukraine.
Countries have to internalize the fact that playing to Trump’s vanities can only be a stopgap measure to buy time, time to decouple from the U.S. geopolitically & reduce dependency economically. De-risk!
The people around Trump are accelerationists trying to usher in a Darwinian world of ethno-nationalist multipolarity, interspersed w/ a corporatist multipolarity, but w/ the U.S. & select parts of the American corporate sector being unquestioned Alphas. A world of toxic masculinity run amok. Better come to grips w/ that reality.
Harrison Wesley
@Eunicecycle: But if the spirits offered to buy $5M gold visas…,
Geminid
@Tim C: Whoa! That’s sooner than I thought. We could be entering a recession just when the Debt Ceiling problem becomes acute. Could be a rough ride.
Rose Judson
@YY_Sima Qian:
I think to a certain extent that is what Starmer et al were trying to do. I just don’t think they expected it to buy them only, like, five minutes.
Hope you can get back to sleep. I always stop and read your comments when I’m catching up on threads, and I learn a lot.
MazeDancer
Lindsey Graham has his picture taken with Zelensky & some Dems in a “bi-partisan” meeting before the Oval Office.
Now, he’s on Fox saying Zelensky has to go.
So, that was the goal? Putin told Trump to get rid of Zelensky?
My main hope is Zelensky’s plane clears US air space safely. Immediately.
Oh, btw, the gee-gaw who asked Zelensky if he owned a suit is Marjorie Taylor Greene’s boy friend.
Spanky
@YY_Sima Qian: There’s a fine line between multipolarity and chaos, and it has long looked like Trump and his goons are big fans of the latter.
Elizabelle
@YY_Sima Qian:
Sadly, yes.
The Felon and DOGE is stealing sleep and hope from all of us.
Tim C
@Geminid: I think there’s a reason that even the Bush II era Republicans never did this shit. They understood, enough at least, of reality that there would be consequences as this kicks off. I know it’s wrong that I can take some comfort about the fact that I live in a blue state with a ton of seniority in a safe union-backed job will protect me and mine from the worst of it, (probably) , but yeah, shit’s going to get worse. A lot worse.
Elizabelle
@MazeDancer: Lindsey Graham is not just a political weathervane.
He is a whirling dervish. And a coward. And a traitor.
Josie
@Geminid: “Could be a wild ride.”
Could you explain to an economically illiterate how this would play out?
prostratedragon
@Deputinize Eurasia from the Kuriles to St Petersburg:
Continued good recovery to your wife.
They believe, and always have, in the reality of global warming. Yesterday at Big U hospital where I’m a frequent flyer, I saw more masks than any time since maybe 2022, so nurses and doctors there must be concerned.
Elizabelle
The Borowitz Report. Satire from Andy Borowitz.
Zelenskyy Meets With Russian Agent
Borowitz also running a helpful poll: who was more embarrassing in the meeting with Zelenskyy?
Trump? Or Vance?
YY_Sima Qian
@David Anderson: For TW, at least, not nearly fast enough. SK & Japan may well spring to acquire nuclear weapons, which the PRC will live w/ if it sets the conditions for the unraveling of their alliances w/ the U.S. (which it will, why put up w/ MAGA when you have nukes to defend yourselves). The Europeans may negotiate coming under the French & British nuclear umbrella, until the CEE decides they need their own nukes to feel truly safe.
Gloria DryGarden
@YY_Sima Qian: All the vile, shocking outrages are hard on the adrenals, which pump out cortisol when there’s danger or long term stress. Very wakey-uppey. Ask me how I know.
In hopes you can get to sleep again, a favorite quote from the wicked witch of the west: “sleep. Poppies. Sleep.”
YY_Sima Qian
@Elizabelle: I needed that laugh! Even if it is gallows humor.
prostratedragon
@rikyrah: Amen to every bit of that. Here is a tragedy: there is no group of Americans with a deeper sense of patriotism than African-Americans.
RobinS
@satby: thanks for that link. Donated
Eunicecycle
@Harrison Wesley: but would that change the greedy assholes behavior? Probably not!
Betty Cracker
@MagdaInBlack: I admire the restraint you displayed by going for a walk instead of grabbing the nearest lug wrench and making dramatic adjustments to that person’s groin area.
This may be a clarifying moment for a lot of MAGA dopes. From what I know of them, some are cultists plain and simple; the body tech sounds like one of those. My neighbor is another.
Others voted for the repulsive orange shitbag and get a transgressive thrill when he shits on migrants, etc., but they’re not so far gone that they don’t know Ukraine is the good guy in that war and that Social Security and cancer research are good things.
Will enough of the latter group peel off when the economy goes to hell, the eagle stops shitting and they can’t vacation in Cancun or visit Banff because the U.S. is a rogue nation? We’ll see.
RedDirtGirl
@satby: Thanks for mentioning that. I just gave something as well.
Gloria DryGarden
@Elizabelle: did you see the clip on blue sky, where a journalist (and mtg’s boyfriend) asks Zelensky why doesn’t he wear a suit? Of all the dumb questions… Is he going to ask Elon the same Q?
YY_Sima Qian
@Rose Judson: I thought it would buy more than 5 minutes. Time to reset all of our expectations to 0 w/ this gang.
rikyrah
Phillips P. OBrien
@PhillipsPOBrien
Ok. Once and for all. Trump is anti Ukraine, anti Democracy, anti Europe and, above all, pro Putin. There can be no more doubt—it’s just a disaster it’s taken so long for people to understand it.
12:42 PM · Feb 28, 2025
x.com/PhillipsPOBrien/status/1895545222740001098
Phillips P. OBrien
@PhillipsPOBrien
The other thing to say is that it’s a good thing for Europeans and lovers of democracy around the world to have seen this. This is what Trump has always stood for, he just revealed it more fully
12:45 PM · Feb 28, 2025
x.com/PhillipsPOBrien/status/1895545941564014884
WaterGirl
I was going not wait until April 1 and then put up the Ukraine thermometer for a month, but give the events of today, I put it up now. It’s in the sidebar.
This goes just to Razom.
Donate
Eunicecycle
@Gloria DryGarden: yes nobody asked Elon why he didn’t wear a suit to the Cabinet meeting! And why he was wearing a baseball hat inside! Usually considered uncouth by Trumpy types.
YY_Sima Qian
@Gloria DryGarden: Thanks. I will try to calm down & peruse RedNote, instead.
Geminid
@Josie: Oh man. There are people like New Deal Economist and others who could say. I don’t know economics that well.
But remember how anxious people were back in Spring of 2023, before Kraven McCarthy folded and they raised (or suspended) the Ceiling? The economy was in good shape then and we had a steady hand in the White House. This time will be different.
One X-factor: the Cryptocurrency industry has thrived through 12 years of economic growth now. It’s a bubble, and a faltering economy could burst it. We don’t know what the effect would be on the “real” economy, and that’s a question whose answer could be disturbing.
Renie
@satby:
Thank you for posting the link to donate to Ukraine. Just did.
Betty Cracker
@YY_Sima Qian: I want to second Rose’s comment at #53. I always learn a lot from your comments, and I am glad you are here.
SiubhanDuinne
@MobiusKlein:
It was a fucking AMBUSH of Zelenskyy. I am truly ashamed right now to identify as an American, even just in my own head. Sickening, disgraceful, and dangerous.
Elizabelle
@Betty Cracker: Canadians should skip snowbird visits to the US. Their absence would be noticed, especially in Florida.
Spend your money somewhere warm that supports democracy, and is not run by criminal thugs.
Elizabelle
@Gloria DryGarden: Did not. Will watch the whole thing at cocktail hour. Ugggggh.
satby
@RobinS: thanks to you, @Josie, and everyone else who donated to Ukrainian support. I’m especially likely to donate to United24, because President Zelenskyy set it up in the early days of the war. Slava Ukraini” (Слава Україні)
SiubhanDuinne
@MazeDancer:
Yeah? And where the everloving blue-eyed fuck was he the other day during the Cabinet meeting? I must have missed the part where he asked Leon Mush the identical question.
Tim C
@Josie: On a basic level, there’s a lot of complex interactions that happen in the economy. My understanding is limited, but the basic scenario could go like this:
Anything that creates uncertainty is likely to reduce companies of all sizes willingness to take risks in terms of investments. That means less expansion across the economy until things seem stable/safe.
That reduced investment means all the follow-on investment that feeds on it contracts. (Economics sadly can be a very positive feedback loop kind of thing when it comes to consumer confidence.
That brings down tax receipts across the board. That lack of income means that it gets harder and harder for the government to prop up things as was done Multiple times in the last century when there is a downturn. Most states cannot borrow money, only the Federal Government can.
Further problems at the moment are the increasing pace of natural disasters thanks to climate change, the fact that the fed really cant “turn the knob” on interest rates very far down any more, and that well, the government is being run by dogmatic morons who truly believe that nearly all federal spending is “waste, fraud, and abuse”. Medicaid, VA care, all of that actually SAVE money in the economy because when you ignore care you actually spend a lot more money doing heroic care with worse outcomes.
Finally, the kicker is that Musk and his gang are even DUMBER than that. They really think they can somehow fix everything with “one weird trick” like Bitcoin or AI, or whatever, meaning there will be some titanic level of wasted resources as things get worse.
The details beyond that are hard to predict. The question is how fast does it get bad? Honestly the point things change is when FOX and the other manipulative right wingers do what they did to Bush after the 2006 Midterms and decide Trump was “never really conservative” The GOP base is dumber than a box of hammers, but they do notice when Memaw has to move back in and Uncle Cletus dies from getting cut off from his anti-biotics.
Hoodie
@YY_Sima Qian: Maybe they don’t understand that they’re not particularly adapted to that world, that the power they have is somewhat of a house of cards propped up by the very system they’re trying to destroy. A bloated stock market dominated by 7 companies that have a pretty high vapor content, a bloated military that is waxing obsolete based at least in part on the technological developments in the very war that they want to end in Russia’s favor. Then again, maybe they do understand that and are desperately trying to lock in existing power relationships by trying to buffalo everyone else into compliance. Dictatorships need each other to contain democratic impulses. It won’t work.
Elizabelle
@SiubhanDuinne: But. I would bet that history says Zelenskyy came out on top.
Could have been a Trump own goal. To see. People don’t like Elon, don’t like DOGE, and what this was is pretty damned obvious.
Never good to get one’s hopes up, but maybe the beginning of the beginning of the end. For The Felon.
Slava Ukraini.
YY_Sima Qian
@Spanky: They want to usher in ethno-nationalist & corporatist multipolarity, but thyme will unleash chaos. The U.S. & US corporations are not Alohas anymore. The U.S. will not be able to enforce a Monroe Doctrine 2.0 to coerce LATAM to not trade w/ the PRC or accept PRC investment (& the influence that comes w/ it). Except by the force of arms, good luck w/ that. But this gang just might try. They’ll start w/ tariffs.
Elizabelle
@satby: I shall be doing a monthly donation to United24.
It just makes me smile.
Gloria DryGarden
Two ways to apply that-
Rest of the world. They don’t have time to care how we feel; countries are having to act fast to create better alliances, and shore themselves up.
trump voters here in the US, nazis, maga folks. Perhaps it’s a mindset of only caring about their own, having no empathy, being easily tricked. Some say even if they see this was a mistake that hurts them, they’ll still be easily tricked by the next lying fascist authoritarian who runs for office. BCS they don’t have concern for others, and they still value their bigotry and white supremacy.
I’ll try to find the link I just listened to on b sky..
eHere. Rebecca Watson on not welcoming repentant maga folks
(Found reposted by Amanda Marcotte on BSky)
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@WaterGirl:
Thank you for posting that
Elizabelle
Trump continues his work as a uniter. Can NATO membership for Ukraine be far behind?
From The Guardian:
Further European leaders back Zelenskyy in remarkable show of unity
In a continuing show of unity among European leaders, more and more of them publicly back Ukrainian president Volodymyr Zelenskyy.
We have now heard from at least 14 of them in the last hour.
European Commission president Ursula von der Leyen and European Council president Antonio Costa posted the same update on their social media accounts just now, saying:
Outgoing German chancellor Olaf Scholz said:
Nobody wants peace more than the citizens of Ukraine! That is why we are working together to find a way to a lasting and just peace. Ukraine can rely on Germany – and on Europe.
Dutch prime minister Dick Schoof said:
Luxembourg’s prime minister Luc Frieden joined in:
As did the Portuguese president, Luis Montenegro:
Geminid
@Elizabelle: I cited this story from the Adirondack Explorer in the early morning thread:
Josie
@Tim C:
Thanks. It seems like the best thing an individual can do is cut back on expenditures and hang onto their money. I guess that will make things even worse, if everyone does that. But what are the alternatives?
Jackie
@MazeDancer:
I’m sure he’s asked Muskrat the same question //
Elizabelle
@Geminid: Good for them! Money talks, and its absence is notable.
Now, I must not only continue avoiding spending money in red states.
I must add a trip to Canada soonest, if they let me in. Have been wanting to see Montreal for a long time; never been.
JoyceH
I’m just an old lady with bad knees out in the country but if I lived in DC I’d dig out my blue and yellow flag and hit the streets.
John S.
@Betty Cracker:
My brother is another. Voted for Trump, totally disgusted with his behavior today. The cracks are forming.
YY_Sima Qian
@Hoodie: It won’t work, & it just might usher in a Chinese economic/ geopolitical hegemony (not military, not w/ everyone like getting nukes) that otherwise would not be in the cards.
I’ve always said PRC hegemony is not the only alternative to US hegemony, & that PRC hegemony is unachievable given presence of other great & middle powers, & the rise of the “Rest”. The way MAGA is setting torch to the world, though…
Unless the Cold War 2.0 turns hot & we all die in nuclear fire.
Anyway, I’m off to RedNote so I can get back to sleep. Good luck to we all.
Elizabelle
From The Guardian:
Tim C
@Josie: Yeah, pretty much.
YY_Sima Qian
@YY_Sima Qian: OK, autocorrect on my iPhone went nuts. It should be “they will unleash chaos. US & US corps are not Alphas anymore”
Jackie
@Elizabelle:
The FFOTUS is supposed to be the adult in the room. The clip I saw, it appeared Vance started it, then FFOTUS jumped in and escalated it. Shameful and embarrassing.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Elizabelle:
Wonder who canceled on who
Elizabelle
Hudson Institute website just says the Zelenskyy appearance has been cancelled. Had been invitation only.
I don’t know yet by which side.
Bulgakov
Putin’s intent was to humiliate Zelenskyy; Trump and Vance did their best to follow orders and failed. So did MTG’s main squeeze Green.
Zelenskyy stood up for Ukraine better than many elected Dems are standing up for America.
Gloria DryGarden
@Betty Cracker: third
Elizabelle
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): Ha ha. Great minds. I am trying to find that out.
Jay
Recent BBC poll this week asked what are you more in favour of,
Supporting Ukraine? 60%
The Special Relationship with the US? 20%
YY_Sima Qian
@Elizabelle: Thank you for posting the European reactions! I just might sleep tonight.
Denali5
I am so embarrassed and ashamed of my country. Why are we siding with Putin?
Matt McIrvin
@Spanky: Trump likes chaos because it makes people yearn for strong daddies as something to hold onto, and creates confusion and fear that you can use to bully people into doing what you want.
Putin is like that too.
I think Xi Jinping is actually NOT like that, has a strong preference for order.
Liberals, counterintuitively, generally like order because some guarantees of security provide the space for people to be free. But our Donner Party capitalists hate personal security for that very reason. They like people to feel precarious because it motivates the little people to behave.
RandomMonster
I just watched the exchange and my god I’m sickened. Our foreign policy is being directed by Putin. We’ll be out of NATO by the end of the year. This country is fucked.
RaflW
I’ve been at a conference (on human rights, lolsob) and seeing the news as we break before dinner.
My seat of the pants take: Trump-Vance have little remaining actual leverage over Zelenski and Ukraine. The berating is because no carrot or stick of traditional power the US wields is swaying them to capitulate to Russia, so the screaming is the last resort of scoundrels.
Europe is getting the message. The US is ending our Transatlantic special relationship, and they’re siding with Ukraine.
It’s interesting that the leader of the org we’re in conference with said that some African NGO folks have said, more or less, “Well, good riddance to American hegemony” over USAID collapsing (this doesn’t waive away the short term harms of lost food aid or medicine, but gives a humbling and different perspective on [waives] all this).
MazeDancer
Trump unites Europe!
Here’s a thread of tweets from, basically, every country in Europe announcing they stand with Ukraine.
prostratedragon
It’s a good question, but that WH debacle would have given me a severe case of fuckouttahere, given the nature of these stupid thugs.
Elizabelle
Weirdly, the NY Post, dreadful Murdoch tabloid that it is, often gets things right. Their spin is ridiculous, but they often check before posting.
That Fox interview will draw more attention than it would have, methinks.
RandomMonster
Putin has had Trump by the short hairs forever.
Elizabelle
@Denali5: “We” aren’t.
Trump is. And I am not sure that everyone who voted for him agrees with what he’s doing. A lot seemed to be the head in the sand type (“he’s just saying that; he won’t really do that.”)
This is gonna be highly interesting.
Europe’s response makes it clear that the United States of Trump is a rogue nation.
RileysEnabler
@satby: thanks for reminding me of this link. Half to that and half to the one Water Girl re-upped.
I’m shaking with rage and shame. I hope the rancid bags of crap see our monetary support for Ukraine and despair. Money they cannot get their greedy, shitty paws on.
zhena gogolia
@Denali5: Because he owns the person that the American people elected president. As has been abundantly clear for many years now.
stacib
@Elizabelle: I would bet a dozen donuts the cancellation came from the Hudson Institute. Unlike Zelensky, the Republican party is spineless when it comes to trump.
p.a
The Orange Thing flaking off pieces of his “coalition”, question is how much by Nov 2026, and will it allow elections in ’26 especially if its numbers are in the tank. Also too, how much will support and polls collapse when every aspect of media will shore it up.
Elizabelle
Another NY Post headline, LOL.
Zelensky needs to ‘resign’ or ‘change’ after Oval Office clash with Trump: pro-Ukraine senator
It’s Lindsey Graham. :-)
Whatever Putin has on Graham, he’s got more of it than I thought!
Elizabelle
@stacib: Could be. Suspect we will eventually hear what happened.
I hope Zelenskyy is safe in this country. And that he departs as soon as possible, for his own sake.
Elizabelle
@YY_Sima Qian: Hugs. I hope you do.
I think today was very, very important.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Elizabelle:
It’ll be interesting to see how Republicans react to foreign leaders’ condemnation of Trump and Vance’s disgraceful treatment of Zelensky
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Elizabelle:
Nice to see he was the one who canceled
Elizabelle
At the top of the Bezos WaPost right now. And they’ve changed their headline to “Trump blasts Zelensky in Oval Office.” It was “scolds”, originally.
Trump tells Ukraine’s president that he has ‘no cards’
The contentious meeting shocked global leaders who feared it could derail peace talks with Russia. Some said Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky mishandled the encounter with President Donald Trump.
WHAT global leaders are shocked? I was seeing a roundup of you go Ukraine posts from Macron, Scholz of Germany, Leyden of the EU.
Jay
@Elizabelle:
As of last week, Canadian border crossings to the US are down by 81%.
Canadian Snowbirds are not just cancelling their trips, but are selling their properties in the US, because they believe that the US/Canadian relationship will never be repaired.
There is a town in Ontario, where half the town is in Canadian, the other side of the street is American. People are not even crossing the street to shop. They are driving 60km to shop when needed.
And Gretzky and his wife are crying on social media as even Edmonton is booing him.
Elizabelle
Laughing. About those horrified “global leaders”: They are so leadery they won’t go on record under their names. Also, these seem to be “diplomats.”
Elizabelle
More from the WaPost story.
artem1s
funny, this shit makes me hate him and his puppet master Darth Cheney even more. And Liz can GFDIAF too.
Elizabelle
The end of the WaPost story. It is interesting.
Jay
nitter.poast.org/BNONews/status/1895567927677764030#m
Darkrose
@YY_Sima Qian: I was wondering if Aloha was a foreign policy term I was unfamiliar with.
sab
I was driving home from work today and NPR did a little sound bite of Trump and Vance bashing Zelenskyy and Zelenskyy firmly but not discourteously standing his ground. It was disgusting but also a little heartening that they aired it, because much as many of us dislike NPR they are listened to all over the country, not just in blue cities.
gene108
@MagdaInBlack:
A lot of guys view bullying as strength. Trump and Vance were despicable bullies to Zelensky.
Once the threats from a bully become immaterial, the bully will be abandoned, all alone, with former victims seeking revenge.
Elizabelle
Second most popular WaPost reader comment. (The first was how embarrassed for our country.)
Matt McIrvin
@Gloria DryGarden: Zelensky clearly needed to wear a dignified ensemble of black MAGA hat, “TECH SUPPORT” T-shirt and giant belt buckle.
Elizabelle
A good term from a WaPost commenter.
Elizabelle
@Matt McIrvin: Embellished chainsaw optional.
Matt McIrvin
@artem1s: Never-Trumper Republicans and sporadically shocked figures like Mitch McConnell made this bed and are now upset that we all have to lie in it. I’ll accept their support but I’m not going to tout them as fellow small-d democrats.
Jay
@Elizabelle:
You might want to look at this:
nitter.poast.org/Gerashchenko_en
It would appear that the so called reporters already had their narrative of “Blame Zelenskyy” and “hot takes” ready to go.
Matt McIrvin
@gene108: And the “bullying as strength” angle was totally part of the neocon foreign policy package, enacted by guys who are now appalled that Trump isn’t using it to push their version of truth, justice and the American Way.
Gin & Tonic
@Elizabelle: Bitch shouldn’t have worn that skirt, amirite?
Sorry, I am not capable of rational discussion now.
Elizabelle
Got to go out for a bit, but it’s interesting to me that there’s very little coverage of what US politicians are saying, GOP or Democrats. And I am sure the Dems are saying plenty.
Later.
Elizabelle
@Gin & Tonic: Exactly.
Although. I think this one blew up in Trump-Vance’s face. To see.
Adam’s thread tonight will be lit.
Juju
@Jay: For a second or two I thought you were going to quote the lyrics of a Neil Young song.
Gloria DryGarden
@RaflW: Their thought, good riddance, makes sense. From here, we have no idea how US hegemony has played out or been difficult for folks in Africa. I hope the African nations can bounce back and get the support they need, quickly.
p.a
I can see Ukraine’s brain trust coming to the conclusion that the Orange Shitstain admin will betray them no matter what, slowly and sneakily or this way, and Ukraine will have to solely rely on European help (I have no idea if this is realistic, just that Ukraine could consider this its only option for honest allies.)
In that case this way, rather than kissing the shitstain’s ass for a meaningless treaty, is the best way to rally Euro outrage and support for the near future. Beyond the near term…
Is Poland Putin-curious/influenced? I know the Baltic states will aid Ukraine as much as they can without weakening themselves. Those 4 nations are next on the menu.
Gloria DryGarden
@Elizabelle: great television. JFC.
I so admire Zelensky for sticking up for Ukraine, not trying to appease the trump team. And for being agile enough to do it fluently, and strongly, while speaking not-perfect English, which might be his third or fourth language.
(Anyone who feels fluent in a second language might know, it’s much harder to be assertive in the non primary language, without a lot of practice.)
Even if folks don’t care how we feel, I’m moved to tears.
Jay
@p.a:
Poland sent 325 modernized T-72 tanks, (diesel power pack, state of the art sensors and fire controls) and PT-91 tanks, (Poland’s almost latest) to Ukraine along with 14 F-16 Falcons and modernized, Westernized Mig -29’s, and that is just a tiny drop of the support Poland has sent Ukraine.
Gloria DryGarden
@rikyrah: so, it’s good, in a way, because it’s eyes open now?
however painful, rip the bandage off, quit your hope/denial, and take care of things, cover your own interests, etc
its so unpleasant, for sure. But better that it’s clear, and obvious.
Captain C
@Elizabelle:
Given that it’s an open secret that Graham’s gay (and who cares if he is), I suspect that it’s something really depraved.
gene108
@p.a:
Elections are run by states. I can’t picture 50 states suspending elections.
I might be lacking imagination.
Renie
@Elizabelle:
There are several European leaders posting about their support for Ukraine right now online.
Gloria DryGarden
@Elizabelle: i don’t know anything about the Hudson group. What are the repercussions for his canceling there? Not sure what meaning to give it. There’s so much to think about, and not enough swear words and adjectives for it all.
Elizabelle
@Renie: fab. I am out and about on errands. Will check back in with you in about 90 minutes. Please keep an eye out for any tweets in support of Russia and Trump. And anything interesting from Republicans and Democrats. Thank you.
satby
@Elizabelle: 💗 Me too!
Citizen Alan
@artem1s: Agreed. Chippy and Darth made Trump possible. As did Reagan and Nixon possible. I was born 7 months into Nixon’s first term. Which means that there has never been a moment of my life wouldn’t be republican.Party has not been trying to destroy America.
MisterForkbeard
@Elizabelle: The Dems in congress should invite him to address them. Turn the screws on this asshole.
Jay
@Gloria DryGarden:
Ukraine has given up on America. Like the rest of us.
Gloria DryGarden
@catfishncod: It appears trump and Vance have no concept of diplomacy, only the dominance and bullying you mention.
Thus, I’m confused by some of the discussion that seems to say US diplomats were working for months, for hours, to set up a good diplomatic talk in the White House, and that Zelensky wrecked it.
My understanding is Zelensky was civil, but didn’t back down, and refused their “deal” that was not really a deal. And why would anyone trust a word of what trump agreed to or promised?
Gloria DryGarden
@Jay: and well you should.
Jay
@Gloria DryGarden:
As usual, the FTFMSM was fed their narrative and are sticking to it, unaware that CSPAN carried it live.
Who are you going to believe, the FTFNYT or your own eyes?
Parfigliano
@gene108: I’d fire that body tech.
Ruckus
Rose,
I moved to the U.K. in 2005, during the second GW Bush administration, and thought at the time that our reputation abroad couldn’t get any worse. How innocent we all were, eh?
I was born in the US 3/4 of a century ago. I’ve seen and expected crap close to this disaster, and while it’s never been this bad because none of the rethuglicans have been as, well there is only one word that fits, as shitty as this one, we’ve seen near misses. First, he thinks, such as it is, that his shit doesn’t stink. Except every human on the planet, even without an operating nasal system can smell the stench from thousands of miles away. And then he hooks up with the South African version of, well him (but with 2 sticks and that’s about it) to rub together and you’ve got our current world. How delightful, delirious, dewonderful.
artem1s
yes, but the Bush Crime family unleashed the monster of kowtowing to fundamentalists demands to start their holy war against women, POC, LGBTQ, etc. Pence was TCF’s pricetag to keep their support.
The fundies are going to
pushpray the Last King of Scotland into a nuclear catastrophe before all this is done.Carl Sagan wept.