For the last 24 hours I keep asking myself if I am being too hard on Schumer and the Dems who voted for the CR. Maybe they are right and Trump would do worse if the government were shut down. And then I realize it doesn’t matter.
Any way you slice or dice this it was a disaster by Schumer. The way he set the House up, went to the cameras and said NO NO NO on Wednesday night, and then woke up the next morning and uno reversed himself in the mirror, infuriated the overwelming majority of the Democratic Senate caucus, fucked the House Dems, and enraged the masses, it doesn’t fucking matter if he was right. He needs to fucking go.
Ksmiami
Completely misread the situation and applied nothing but a loser strategy. He’s just not the guy for this precarious moment. We need warriors.
zhena gogolia
Really?
zhena gogolia
There are not a lot of “warriors” in the U. S. Congress, because they have to be elected by a majority of the population of their states and districts.
The American people have not given the Democrats any meaningful power. We should concentrate on criticizing the FASCISTS WHO ARE IN POWER.
Princess
I’m now on Team Yes was probably the best card in a losing hand, but I agree that Schumer f*cked up the sale. Possibly because he himself was vacillating; possibly because he didn’t trust Americans to be able to handle and accept nuance in a case when both options were bad.
Princess
@zhena gogolia: Yeah, I share your question mark. I think Schumer’s problem was that the masses are not enraged by anything that has happened so far and in fact mostly don’t have any idea what Trump is doing.
Suzanne
Agree.
It’s okay if opposing fascists isn’t one’s skill set — it isn’t mine, either. But that’s what the job demands right now.
brantl
@Ksmiami: you don’t know that he “misread the moment“ any better than anybody else does and nobody else knows either. We’re in completely uncharted territory here. The problem is that he drastically reversed course right in the middle of an operation, A tactical operation. That never works out well, And he should’ve known better. If there’s any reason he needs to go that’s it and that’s a good reason. I’m not saying it isn’t but that’s the only reason, and it’s a really good one.
They’re going have to fight Trump tooth and nail, every step of the way and the problem is they need to decide strategy between the House and the Senate. They need to agree on it.
They need to megaphone the shit out of it (billboards on major highways, Times Square, etc) and they need to constantly message that this asshole is irresponsible, without any empathy for the people in his country or any other country. Except the few rich people who give him lots of money.
geg6
@zhena gogolia:
We agree on a lot of things but not on this. This was Schumer’s own goal. He fucked this up every way he possibly could and we are right to ask our elected leaders to not fuck over their own caucus and House colleagues, not to mention the base of the party he supposedly leads in the Senate and who he is constantly hitting up for cash by saying how he is fighting against MAGA. Fuck that bullshit. Same with my own duplicitous senator, who has gotten several scathing replies from me regarding how I feel about his constant fundraising messages. If we can’t criticize our own when they have fucked up, that’s not a party I want to be a part of.
Nelle
Open thread? Tax issues. We are dual citizens and have bank accounts in both countries. For twenty years, we have had to file a report with the IRS on our “foreign” account. This year, we are charged $100 to file the required report. Except it has to be online and the site is not working. Too bad we aren’t rich, so we can take money from the government, not pay money to the government. Phooey.
TXG1112
I have become convinced that the Democrats insistence on a seniority based system of advancement within the party does tremendous damage to its effectiveness. This fact pretty much underlies every problem we have with spineless gerontocracy. Burn it all down.
zhena gogolia
@Princess: Right. They will not notice until it’s far too late.
zhena gogolia
@Nelle: Ugh.
Baud
One coda
John S.
And so the schism that Schumer ripped open is laid bare, though it has been obvious on BJ for some time.
There are many who share this sentiment:
And there are also many who share this sentiment:
I have no idea how we are supposed to meet halfway on these two fundamentally different positions.
ETA: I grabbed these comments from the thread downstairs because I thought they perfectly encapsulated the two “sides”.
David Collier-Brown
@Princess: I suspect he was vacillating too.
One cure for that is to get your caucus in a room, take a straw vote, and then see if you can come down hard on one alternative or the other.
Then announce what you’re going to do, and whip the vote. (That even works if your “caucus” is the directors of a computer club (:-))
schrodingers_cat
@zhena gogolia: The masses are oblivious, hence we are in this situation.
Juju
It was a no win situation and Trump was/is going to do what he wants to do, and I don’t believe either vote would have made much of a difference in the end, but Schumer mishandled the situation and it’s clear he’s not suited to be in charge in this type of situation. It never occurred to me that Shatz would vote for cloture and I am interested in hearing why he did vote for cloture.
SC54HI
Wrote my senator (Schatz) to express my disappointment. Also castigated him & his colleagues for really failing to meet this moment. I can sort of understand Schatz’s rationale for voting yes on cloture but the Ds are all operating like it’s the 1980s or something, before Rs became the new nazi party. This BlueSky post by Sahil Kapur says it all.
And Schumer is on his book tour.
Baud
FWIW, I think most Dems in most states and districts win by managing the Dem coalition, not by being warriors or ideologues.
Every group wants a fighter unless they’re fighting the group’s interests.
sentient ai from the future
i keep saying this.
what this episode shows is that schumer can’t count.
the reasons for his change are beside the point. if you can’t count votes, then you have no business being in leadership.
you need to be able to count, and you need to be straightforward about your message. he fails on both counts, regardless of what the machinations or theories were behind it.
SargassoSink
@Nelle: you mean Treasury-FinCEN charges $100 to file an FBAR now? That sucks.
Dorothy A. Winsor
I have no political instincts so I’m not a good judge of this. It all sucks.
brantl
@John S.: they aren’t stupid, but they’ve literally gotten to the tire rooms and anthrax dinner party stage. What the Republicans want now is completely insane. The Democrats can’t plan for it because they’re not insane but they’re gonna have to plan better for insanity and they need to hire some people who can think like whack bags they’re probably gonna have to hire a couple sociopaths who happen to be really bright and then they’re gonna have to keep a close fucking eye on them. We need people that are just as mean and stupid-cunning as Trump, but we need them in advisor’s seats, not in the driver seat, and we need them just to predict what he’s going to do and I wouldn’t be surprised if you get some crazy stupid-cunning sociopaths who can do it.
MP
@Baud: Absolutely, but when the group being fought by the Dem leadership in the Senate are the Dems in the House who thought they had agreed upon a strategy, that’s really not great.
Ksmiami
@TXG1112: Completely. The older generation still clamor for bipartisan fairy dust. Too many lives are at stake – we need energetic leadership and fighters. The only way to defeat fascism is to hit it square in the jaw.
New Deal democrat
These two quotes might be of interest in considering an opinion.
https://bsky.app/profile/davelevitan.bsky.social/post/3lket3voyis2a
From inside the DoD: “Schumer’s bungling over the past two months & creation of this lose-lose scenario is a complete dereliction of his duties. This was the sole moment where they had any real potential leverage to stand up and fight for the Constitution & they completely blew it from day 1.”
https://bsky.app/profile/sahilkapur.bsky.social/post/3lkf4nha3ss22
Two Republican senators told me tonight this vote shows they can execute the same strategy again — cut Democrats out of the negotiations on a gov’t funding bill, pass it thru the House, and expect Senate Dems to back down and not filibuster it. “We liked it over here,” one said.
In response to the “there was no better choice” reasoning I have heard, I will repeat what I said yesterday. If Democratic Senators had been all over legacy and new media for the past month loudly announcing that they would filibuster anything other than a clean CR, they would have been in much better position this week to extract concessions. Instead their silence boxed them into a corner. Whose fault was that?
Ksmiami
@brantl: I could sign up for this.
Melancholy Jaques
@zhena gogolia:
We have to go beyond merely criticizing the fascists who are in power. Our criticisms either never make it into the discourse or fall on deaf ears.
We need to focus on how we can remove them from power. In order to do that, we need to paint the message in bold, primary colors: The things that Trump & Musk are doing are wrong, bad, & unAmerican. We Democrats oppose them & will not cooperate with them on any matter.
It should have been the policy from day one on every nominee, but the losers in the senate decided to pretend that Trump was a normal Republican from the 1960s. If we want normies to focus on the fascists who are in power, we have to make sure they understand that they are fascists & why we will not cooperate with them.
Partisans understand subtleties & maneuvers, normies do not. Schumer & Co sent a very strong signal to normies that whatever Trump & Musk are doing is not a problem, nothing to get excited about, no reason to think Democrats are all that concerned.
u
New York State (and New York City) have mostly unearned reputation as “liberal” strongholds. They are not, and they certainly have some shitty political “leaders”.
Wileybud
From cozying up to Wall Street interests to clearing the field to knowingly elect the worst Democrat (Kyrsten Sinema) in the House to today’s abomination one has to wonder if Schmucky Chuck is a Repuglican deep plant.
Best description of the Senate Minority Leader…a jellyfish without the sting. He needs to go. Would love to see Senator Professor Warren in his leadership role & him back to grilling cheeseburgers.
David Collier-Brown
@Nelle: Get a lawyer to write their in-house counsel a letter, saying that they won’t allow you to carry out your duty. That’s not super expensive.
Tech support people for a broken website really really pay attention when they get an escalation from the counsel’s office. (I once did, because the support folks brushed off someone they should have escalated to me. I like in-house counsel (:-))
Soprano2
@zhena gogolia: I agree, but we can’t be blind to problems on our side. I think it was wrong of Schumer to give that speech on Wednesday that made it sound like they were going to vote against cloture. If you think the right choice is to vote for cloture then make that argument. IMHO Schumer made himself look ridiculous and pissed off a lot of his own supporters. It was unnecessary.
Ohio Mom
@Princess: I don’t know any normies anymore so I can’t say if average people know what’s going on. They may know a little bit and not the full extent.
I’m guessing they are upset about tariffs about to make just about everything more expensive and are worrying about grandma ending up sleeping on their sofa. I’m guessing they don’t get the horror that we are starting to disappear people; they probably don’t know what that means.
So much is going on, I’m thinking this self-inflicted Democratic fiasco will be forgotten by most (not us here) in the rush of other catastrophes.
sentient ai from the future
@Ksmiami: there is sometimes value in keeping your powder dry, and sometimes throwing a punch.
but because both actions need to be coordinated throughout the party, you gotta be able to count fucking votes and not telegraph one thing to your own caucus and then turn around and do another.
that is the fundamental error here. regardless of the course of action, we need to be united on it, and schumer’s inability to count votes here, in a high stakes situation, means that we spent hours and days pointing fingers at each other instead of at the actual enemy, the fascists.
divide and conquer is a timeless strategy because it fucking works, and we need to get rid of leaders who, wittingly or unwittingly, wind up dividing us as schumer did here.
Suzanne
@John S.: I look at it slightly differently than either of the viewpoints you presented. I am of the opinion that politics right now is unlike politics at any other time in living memory and thus institutional experience is not helpful. In fact, it’s more likely harmful, because it seems to convince the long-timers that the skills they have honed over decades are relevant. But they’re not. This time demands new skills, and a whole lot of creativity.
I don’t have any question that Schumer’s a good guy and wants to do the right things for people. I do doubt that he can see the situation clearly and make good strategic choices.
And, sorry…. when generals lose battles, they get replaced.
Soprano2
@Baud: Let’s hope the House passes it. That was a gratuitous swipe at a black-majority city that saves the federal government zero money.
John S.
@brantl:
I don’t disagree. But it’s going to be pretty hard to move forward with a cohesive strategy when there are two factions pulling in completely opposite directions.
I mean, just look at this thread.
Baud
@Soprano2:
That’s why I highlighted Trump endorsed in the headline. But it’s not done until it’s done.
sentient ai from the future
@Wileybud: it’s more than wall street. in gillibrand’s case, my understanding is that she is one of the main targets of cryptocurrency lobbying money.
Nelle
@David Collier-Brown: Thanks. We’ve got a month and I think Turbo-tax is also working on it. We may need to do this, so tge advice is appreciated.
Nelle
@SargassoSink: That’s my husband’s understanding.
John S.
@Suzanne:
Then ultimately you fall into the camp that wants the Democrats to do better and are looking for internal change.
The other camp just wants to yell at Republicans to do better and are looking for external change.
Those lines have been drawn pretty clearly around here for quite some time.
Soprano2
@New Deal democrat: All of this!
oldgold
Although I agree with Schumer’s decision concerning the shutdown, I concede that like Tom Hagen in the Godfather he is no Wartime Consigliere and needs to go.
HinTN
Citizens United is the root of all Congressional misbehavior.
I don’t invite what is the “right way” to fund elections but being beholden to megadonors sure is not conducive to democracy.
Baud
@oldgold:
“He needs to do because he did the right thing” wins the prize for most unique viewpoint.
sab
@Nelle: That’s interesting. (Sorry. I do taxes and we only have a couple of returns that have that issue and they are always late March returns. So somebody might finally notice what Trump and the Muskrats have been up to.)
Suzanne
@John S.: I think Democrats doing better might be able to ameliorate some of the damage Republicans do. I absolutely blame the Republicans for the destruction. But, like, wars are not won by standing and pointing at the other side, screaming that it’s really their fault.
And I also don’t think that it’s healthy to not criticize our own. Healthy organizations, including political parties, demand performance.
John S.
@Baud:
It’s on equal footing as “He needs to stay because he did the wrong thing”. I’ve seen that notion advanced here as well.
Belafon
I’m very much a “be wary of shutting down the government” guy and this whole sequence was just wrong. They needed to try to force some oversight from Republicans or we get what Trump is doing now, which is saying he has the right to deport anyone just because, like he’s already deported that Lebanese doctor even though a judge put a hold on it.
Baud
@Nelle:
I don’t see a fee listed on the website.
https://bsaefiling.fincen.treas.gov/Costs.html
alquitti
Well they’re very happy with him in the white house.
John S.
@Suzanne:
I agree 100%, since I fall into the former camp. But we both know there’s a healthy amount of commenters here who think we should never criticize Democrats, and only focus on screaming at Republicans.
Stella
@John S.: This seems to be a terrible strategy though.
I’ve seen a lot of people calling for Dems to point fingers at those really responsible, the Republicans. But that’s pointless mostly. They are not going to start listening to us now. If we yell mostly at Dems, it’s because that’s the group we actually have a chance of influencing. Of course they’re going to be the ones we focus on. I honestly don’t understand what telling at the Republicans is supposed to accomplish.
SC54HI
@New Deal democrat: These are the points I made to Schatz in my email. Where is the shadow cabinet? Where is a coordinated effort to do town halls, particularly in red districts? Where ARE the Democrats?
It took them way too long grasp the lawlessness of DOGE, et al. and even then, when they showed up at protests outside the agencies, *they did not go inside to confront DOGE.* WHY? They were and are about the only individuals in the US who could something like this. Anything they’ve done or said has looked so scattershot, with a few exceptions like AOC or Rep Larson of CT whose righteous tirade was heartening.
I guess, once again, we are learning that no one will save us but us.
Baud
@John S.:
I haven’t, but I agree. Whether he needs to stay or go is something people can debate, but saying he needs to stay because he did the wrong thing doesn’t make sense.
Baud
@Stella:
I disagree with that. If we focus only on Dems, then people will and should gravitate to Republicans as the only party that can exercise power.
Suzanne
@John S.: Also — and I realize that this is somewhat ironic coming from me, who argues routinely that ineffable vibes matter — we should care less about these people. The worst thing that happens to them is that they lose an election and they go on to a cushy corporate or academic job making double what I make right now. We should not be afraid of cycling any of them out if they’re not kicking ass.
BlueGuitarist
Apparently ratfckers are mimicking our postcards for the April 1 elections but giving the wrong date.
I guess that means they think postcards are effective and want to discourage us. Sad.
not much time to write cards for 4/1.
Info about postcarding
https://balloon-juice.com/postcard-writing-for-2025/
Article about wrong date cards:
https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/politics/elections/2025/03/14/wisconsin-supreme-court-election-mailers-giving-wrong-election-date/82411581007/
tam1MI
@Ksmiami: We need warriors.
At the very least we need leaders who won’t renege on an agreement with his colleagues in the House and backstab them because Kirsten Gillibrand threw a hissy fit.
zhena gogolia
@Suzanne: The point (and this is the constant misunderstanding about Biden as well) is that people who are dismayed by the constant sniping at Democrats AREN’T WORRYING ABOUT THE WELL-BEING OR FEELINGS OF SAID DEMOCRATS. We’re worried about the expenditure of energy on things like primarying Schumer. This is what you want to do in the middle of a war? We need to think about where we put our energies and screaming. Do we scream at Schumer or do we scream at the fascists? I choose the latter.
StringOnAStick
From another dead thread, I noted that a friend with a son working in a Senator’s office has been told there will be no federal firefighting response to wildland fires this year, so sell the family house and move into town. This will obviously be catastrophic for the west.
Three days ago I got an email from the Grassroots Wildland Firefighters organization, saying that the CR as proposed contained significant pay raises for these folks, who have been working for peanuts for years, so was there really funding in there for wildland firefighters? I think how the “no federal firefighting response” got going is because all provisional employees were fired, and wildland firefighters are always provision employees because it’s seasonal employment. I wonder which it will be, let the blue states burn down, or have such meager funding for an inadequate number of firefighters that it happens anyway.
tam1MI
It’s kind of the least worst option, however. It at least has the advantage of being fair and not based on kissing up and kicking down.
Baud
@zhena gogolia:
Yeah, Schumer isn’t up until 2028, assuming he even runs again.
Big R
@Nelle: I have filed FBAR since I moved overseas in 2020; I’ve never paid a fee. Maybe your holdings are complicated enough to need a third party to do it for you, but if you just hold one or two accounts, you should be able to do it for free here: https://bsaefiling.fincen.treas.gov/NoRegFBARFiler.html
I only see fees associated with third party filing. But certainly I’m not all knowing, but this seems very odd.
John S.
@Baud:
Apologies if I wasn’t clear. I wasn’t attributing that sentiment to you.
Stella
@Baud: Guess is should clarify. I meant the energy you’re explicitly using to accomplish things.
This past week, all attention was on the vote. And while pointing out the ways the Republicans caused the problem is good, trying to get them to vote how you’d like is useless. Trying to convince Republican voters is almost completely useless. Arguing with fellow Dems is not a circular firing squad, it’s trying to get the fellow coalition members – the people most likely to agree with you – on your side. Or giving them a chance to get you onside. It’s the coalition doing ciding what they want, it’s the passion of the sides showing politicians what the crowds want. It’s the way we remind representatives that’s what they are.
Lapassionara
Booman has an interesting essay about this issue. One point he mentioned was the court ruling that came toward the end of this past week, saying that Trump did not have authority to fire most of the federal workers he fired and ordering that they be reinstated. If the government had shut down, then the government would not have had to reinstate the fired workers who were not in “essential” positions. Essentially, shutting down right after the ruling would have given Trump a way to avoid the ruling.
Im sure he explained it better than I just did, and I wish I had better technical skills so I could provide a link.
Baud
@John S.:
I didn’t think you were.
tam1MI
It’s the old “incompetence or conspiracy?” argument that has plagued mankind for millenia now.
trollhattan
Meanwhile, this fucking guy, again.
Got that? You vote, you join America, easy peasy.
“This just in, Somalia has voted overwhelmingly to join America.”
Lutnik: “Not like that!“
Stella
@zhena gogolia: Screaming at the fascists does absolutely nothing to change them. Research shows it mostly just gets them to dig in their heals. They do not care what we think! But Schumer can, at times, be influenced. It’s not just empty rage, it’s trying to apply pressure where it works best.
Lobo
@John S.: from what I have experienced , we tend to give way more deference and respect due to position and status. They present well, but that’s it. A good chief of staff can help. When they drink their own kool aid then it’s a problem. Saw this up close. This moment has been very clarifying. You know who to take seriously and who not.(From previous post)
John S.
@Suzanne:
That’s totally reasonable. I spent the last 2 weeks calling my reps, and while I don’t think my actions made a difference directly, it was part of a much larger collective action that did. And we made it clear what we expected from our elected officials.
Happily, I believe my WA representatives voted as their constituents wanted. And as one of them, I am very pleased. Especially with Patty Murray, who I gush about often.
Ella in New Mexico
Look, a lot of very decent and dedicated Democrats and one Indpendent voted to advance the bill, and some to pass it. They can’t all now be part of the Dark Side. There has to be some rationale that specifically makes it obvious why this was a good choice, but its just not jumping out at me.
Part of the problem with understanding why this was the lesser of two evils is it’s hard to find out what exactly is no longer in the damn bill that everyone was saying before was basically a Golden Ticket to Destroying Everything.
Were there enough revisions/drops that it doesn’t codify stuff like gutting Mediciaid and other important social/ programs over the next few months, for example?
I don’t need to here the Yes people telling me that in the end, it was the better choice. I need to know WHY they thought that.
And, to be honest, I need to hear their plan to not let this happen again 6 months from now like Rethuglicans think it will
@StringOnAStick: see, that’s what I’m talking about. Why are they out there telling us stuff like this–if it’s true– as a rationale for their votes?
brendancalling
@TXG1112: I’ve been saying this for two decades now.
Suzanne
@zhena gogolia: We elect Schumer and others to fight the fascists. He’s a member of leadership, FFS. If he cannot effectively lead, replace him with someone who can. It’s not “screaming at him”, it isn’t personal.
Screaming at Republicans is like screaming at cancer.
ETA: #fuckcancer #fuckrepublicans
Ksmiami
@tam1MI: I feel a lot of the problems with the Democratic party stem from a lack of team sport participation when the reps were younger.
Susan of Texas
@zhena gogolia: Power is not given. It is taken.
John S.
@Lobo:
Totally agree. I’ve had my own fair share of “appeal to authority” in my professional life. Assuming that an SVP was in that position because they were smart or competent was generally an unwise assumption to make.
Meritocracy is all but dead in this country, if it even existed at all. I’m not interested in hastening its demise.
Baud
@Suzanne:
Then why do people say Fuck Cancer all the time?
Stella
@Ella in New Mexico: The argument for is that lots of people would suffer otherwise. Instead they wanted to spare those specific people suffering so that different groups will instead.
Trying to minimize harm eventually just becomes avoiding all pain, and I think we’re at the point that’s not possible. The Dems want safe choices, and I don’t think that’s possible anymore. I understand Schumer’s decision, I just think it’s terrible. And for those that say he’s a smart Senator and I’m not, there’s also the House Dem Caucus that seems to agree.
Suzanne
@Baud: People smoke and sunbathe and overeat and hang out with carcinogens and say “fuck cancer”. Is it news that people live with significant delulu?
japa21
Although he may have been correct in the ultimate decision, he screwed up by how he did it. The GOP is crowing about how the Dems are fighting each other over this.
John S.
@Baud:
Because it helps us feel better to focus our anger at something we have absolutely no control over.
I lost my brother to cancer one year ago. It was sudden and unexpected. So yeah, fuck cancer. Even if it won’t bring him back.
Baud
@Suzanne:
I’ll never let cancer or Republicans off the hook.
Ksmiami
@Suzanne: Completely agree. It’s now the time to be tough, disciplined and creative. schumers path will only lead to more destruction. He’s not a bad person, but he’s in the wrong role
Suzanne
@Baud: To extend this metaphor….. when one has cancer, and one’s oncologist is not up to the job….. one gets a new oncologist, or enters a clinical trial. We need new leadership for the same reason.
geg6
@Suzanne:
I couldn’t have said it better myself. Probably because I’ve been so incandescent with rage.
Baud
@Suzanne:
That wasn’t the issue I was reacting to. It was the idea that we shouldn’t scream at Republicans.
Suzanne
@geg6: I have been on fucking fire this week with anger.
geg6
@Suzanne:
Also this.
Girl, you’re on fire today!
Suzanne
@Baud: Scream at them all you want. Scream at cancer. Let off steam. Just don’t delude yourself into thinking that screaming at them fixes it. It does not.
🐾BillinGlendaleCA
@Princess:
I think you’re wrong about this, I hear a lot of unprompted grumbling about Trump and Musk among my co-workers. These are folk are normies.
tam1MI
It could be possible there are people who want the first in order to more effectively do the second.
Baud
Speaking of cancer and getting mad at Republicans
I hope Canada sends us some along with the fentanyl.
Suzanne
@geg6: I rage-cleaned this morning.
Baud
@Suzanne:
So you don’t think screaming at Republicans makes people more aware about what Republicans are doing?
All those protestors are wasting their time then.
TBone
I share a birthday with Winston and like to re-listen periodically for morale.
K.B.O.!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7odxHqBKbLI
John S.
@Suzanne:
Yup. Thanks for that brilliant analogy. I literally just watched the yarzheit candle I lit for my brother burn out last night, so that really hit home (in a good way).
Baud
@🐾BillinGlendaleCA:
Yeah. Schumer’s public facing theory is that it’s not a good time to take the focus off Trump because normies are starting to notice.
I’m not asking anyone to agree with him, but he was very clear about that.
tam1MI
It’s a door-stopper of a book, but THE POWER BROKER by Robert Caro might give you some insight into that tactic.
sab
@Baud: I am sorry, but that made me laugh, grimly.
Suzanne
@Baud: I think protesting is generally a high-input-low-output activity. It takes a massive amount of planning and resources and humanpower, and it generally takes a long time.
I actually don’t think any of this activity — criticism of Republicans or Dems — is bad or harmful. But I take issue with the idea that we shouldn’t criticize Democrats. I think that is also valuable, and quite frankly, more likely to be effective.
geg6
@zhena gogolia:
Schumer is one of our most powerful generals in this war. He’s a fucking McClellan. Lincoln went through three generals before he found one who would and could fight. Sometimes you have to get rid of the shitty generals before you can win that war. I want to follow Grant and Sherman, not McClellan and Halleck.
Suzanne
@John S.: I’m incredibly sorry for your loss. I hope you’re holding up as best as can be expected.
John S.
@Baud:
Yeah, except Schumer actually did the opposite of what he purported to want with his dog and pony show. So now the focus is on him and his incompetence, instead of Trump’s.
tam1MI
Well, we do have a problem in this regard. The problem is that the media, which is out enemy and don’t you forget it, loves to escalate this message into an overall message of, “The Democrats suck and are losers”. The Republicans can scream at their elected officials for being squishes all day long and all through the night and at best it gets a bare mention in the news. We criticize our leaders and it’s front page news for days. Then voting time rolls around and your typical normie goes, “Well, the Republicans killed the economy and made my wife bleed out in an ER when she miscarried and my 4 year old die of measles, but the Democrats suck and are losers, they say so themselves, so…” And the tickmark goes next the name with the R next to again.
I don’t know how we solve this.
Baud
@Suzanne:
I think the criticism is that it’s over done.
When people criticized the NYT for obsessing over emails, its defense was the story was newsworthy, which didn’t address the criticism.
sentient ai from the future
@trollhattan: hear that, puerto rico?
Baud
@John S.:
I’m confident Trump will steal the limelight back very soon.
Nelle
@Baud: I’ll have my husband check it. Maybe turbotax is charging the fee? All of this is secondhand from spousal grousing.
Mai Naem mobil
@trollhattan: follow the money. Lutnick has that tether cryptocurrency that Cantor Fitzgerald holds. Tether is apparently used by druglords and other unsavory people to do illegal stuff. I don’t know now, but Panama did used to be an offshore tax haven. Lutnick’s interest are probably not in shipping oil like his boss’s boss are.
John S.
@Suzanne:
Thanks. I have good days and bad days. Unfortunately compounded by my father dying last month, though he at least lived a full life (almost made it to 90).
It’s why you haven’t seen as much of me around here lately, or why when you did I was often feisty and overly combative.
sentient ai from the future
@Suzanne: counterpoint: practicing human-resources-logistics via peaceful protest builds essential skills in an opposition movement that might need to be further built on if things don’t improve.
if an army moves on its belly, then we want people planning mass actions in the future to have had some practice. like at protests.
John S.
@Baud:
Oh, that’s an extremely safe bet.
Baud
@John S.:
My condolences.
jlowe
Throughout the late 20th and the 21st centuries, Democrats have sucked at losing, in the sense of knowing how to rebound from a defeat. Historical examples that come to mind include the defeat of the Germans in the World War 2 Battle of France in 1944 and the Long March. The Germans rebounded a few months later to fight the Battle of the Bulge and, after several adventures over many years, the Communists controlled all of continental China.
As Molly Ivins said, “too many years, too many limousines”. Democratic leadership in Congress has gotten far too comfortable (and old) and really needs to move on. Hopefully, the up-and-comers will be just a bit angrier.
geg6
@Ella in New Mexico:
Put aside the right or wrong of the vote. It’s how this all went down. He misled his House colleagues. He misled his own Senate caucus. And he gave a speech that misled his own base. That’s why I’m enraged by him. He’s a liar and he thinks we’re all stupid. I’ll never forgive that. It’s a total betrayal besides being what I believe was the wrong move.
TBone
@TBone: this is the nost humorous explanation I could find. From a funeral to hilarious in Brit style.
https://reallearningforachange.com/uncategorized/keep-buggering-on-churchill-a-great-way-to-handle-a-crisis/
John S.
@Baud:
Sometimes the criticism is that it is over done. But there are plenty of people here who get upset when it is done at all. Look no further than this thread.
And thanks (for the condolences).
Nelle
@Big R: Thanks!
WaterGirl
@Nelle: That’s maddening!
Baud
Via reddit, massive turnout in Idaho protesting Schumer.
zhena gogolia
@geg6: The elected representatives in Congress are not generals.
oldgold
@Baud: “He needs to do because he did the right thing” wins the prize for most unique viewpoint.
You are mischaracterizing my viewpoint and your use of quotation marks for words I never wrote is misleading.
My viewpoint is that Schumer in this particular matter made the right call, but the manner he did do and other conduct he has engaged in as we attempt not resist this MAGA onslaught suggest he is not well suited to continue serving as Minority Leader of the Senate.
Nelle
@Suzanne: Hmm, I need to get more rage-filled. The house is a tip.
Suzanne
@John S.:
That, for me, is any given Tuesday. Don’t worry about it.
Baud
@oldgold:
I was just razzing you. Sorry if it was unclear.
Suzanne
@Nelle: Schumer being disappointing = my front porch looks great and is ready for spring. LOL.
sentient ai from the future
@oldgold: the action one arrives at is not the only consideration for leadership. the process by which it is arrived at it is also as, often more important. i can’t believe this even needs to be said.
Mai Naem mobil
I just want to know what was the point of keeping the filibuster? Also I know the Senate approves cabinet nominations with a simple majority but it seems like Orange Dbag seems to have gotten people onto the ‘lesser’ positions that Biden took forever to get. I understood those were because the GOP weren’t letting them through. Are they all too busy raising money to be in the Senate?
Baud
@Mai Naem mobil:
Filibuster stopped the anti-trans sports bill. More often, it stops good bills from Dems.
I support its end, but I’m glad Republicans aren’t taking that step (understanding that they have less incentive to do so).
geg6
@zhena gogolia:
Then what are they in this war we are fighting? Why would I vote for them or work to get them elected or donate to them? They can’t pass any legislation or subpoena witnesses in hearings. We give them tons of privileges so they will work for our priorities but, when they are out of power, they can just do nothing? So what is their function?
TBone
@Lapassionara: I understood that perfectly. Adding: here’s what did it for me yesterday afternoon:
https://www.whitehouse.senate.gov/news/release/whitehouse-statement-on-the-continuing-resolution/
sentient ai from the future
open thread, so
i’m making some rustic eggplant parm (per a recent kenji video, without bothering to bread, just sauteeing the eggplant) and had about a cup left of the canned san marzano tomatoes i had chunked up.
i ate them right out of the mixing bowl.
if this is wrong, i dont want to be right.
Mai Naem mobil
The reason Schumer may hang on is campaign $$$. Don’t forget the House and Orange Dbag have promised to go after ActBlue so that’s going to make the Dems even more dependent on big money donations. I still think one of the reasons he folded was because he got called from Wall Street folks who were freaking out about the stock market. Same for Gillibrand. The Dow was hitting correction territory. The Nasdaq had already hit it.
geg6
@sentient ai from the future:
There is nothing wrong with that at all.
Baud
tam1MI
Hakeem Jeffries in unpopular is ome quarters of the Online Left, but here is one thing I think even his biggest haters must concede: He sets expectations appropriately. When he says something like, “Representatives are free to vote their conscience”, we know that the coalition is split and whatever result we were pulling for probably won’t happen. If he says, “We oppose this measure”, we know the coalition is united and will vote for/against something in unison. He doesn’t promise what he can’t deliver.
Melancholy Jaques
I am not at all familiar with Samantha Hancox-Li or Liberal Currents, but this article, Roadmap to American Reconstruction, is one of the best things I’ve read about our situation. It’s long for an internet article, but well worth reading.
trollhattan
@Baud:
Arlington, VA Mar 15, 2025—Zombie hordes shamble around Arlington and surrounding area.
Baud
@Melancholy Jaques:
I only skimmed it but it seems thoughtful.
Jay
https://www.reuters.com/business/media-telecom/trump-signs-order-gut-voice-america-other-agencies-2025-03-15/
tobie
IMO a caucus leader with rhetorical skill could have taken the CR to the people. “We’re happy to vote for the CR provided social security isn’t cut, Medicare and Medicaid are protected, veterans continue to have accessible care, etc.” A leader with communications skill could have made this case. Instead Schumer dithered and then without warning reversed himself with an op ed in the NYT that made the budget all about Dem intransigence rather than Republican venality. That is what’s so awful.
My cousin started a text thread with family and friends. We’re all Jewish normie Dems. Not one person was happy with the way Schumer handled this…even those who think he was right about the costs of a shutdown.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Mai Naem mobil:
They what? On what grounds?!
zhena gogolia
@Melancholy Jaques:
Yes, this is good so far, came here to quote this:
wmd
Chances of him being the leader of the Democratic caucus at end of the year seem low. If I had to bet I’d say he’s gone before summer.
Who replaces him? Should be someone under 70, and looking through the list there’s not a lot of inspiring choices. Cory Booker? Tammy Duckworth? Cory has been raising his profile a little lately.
Interesting Name Goes Here
Why do the people who scream loudest about us being “AT WAR!!!!!!!!1!” have zero interest in doing everything possible to prevent from getting into one in the first place? Someone answer that question for me, because I feel like if my fellow Democrats and progressives had did their civic duties in the first place and not just because it’s the trendy thing to do, we would not be locked in this hell to begin with. I don’t care about Chuck Schumer or Nancy Pelosi or Hakeem Jeffries; what I do care about as a black man is why so many of my so-called allies have no concern about doing the bare minimum until it becomes too painful to ignore, at which point these people go from 0-100 faster than an Aston Martin Valkyrie because they are begging to be the next Katniss Everdeen or Jack Bauer.
Steve in the ATL
@tam1MI: my mother, a solid democrat who is in her eighties, thinks Jeffries is great, but—presumably as a result of her upbringing in the Mississippi delta in a very different era, thinks his first name is “unfortunate”.
Personally, I think he’s sharp.
zhena gogolia
@Melancholy Jaques:
RevRick
@zhena gogolia: Totally agree. Our fire is wasted when we’re aiming at our own for failing to meet our demands/expectations that they be fighters.
First of all, legislating is exceedingly tedious and slow. Our party is committed to doing the legislating.
Second of all, we are decidedly not fascists. Fascists, as Umberto Eco pointed out, are contemptuous of thought, reflection, and debate. They see such things as treasonous, hence Trump’s claim that what CNN and MSNBC are doing is illegal! Fascists are all about action, heedless of consequences. People elected to be legislators, and who take that job to heart, are confronted with a predicament in a party gone fascist, because there is no solution as to how to handle that.
Third of all, we have placed our political leaders in a precarious position. For how many years have those on the left complained about how undemocratic the filibuster is, and now we’re angry that some voted to end this filibuster?!
Fourth, we need to focus our anger on Republicans. They are the fascists. They are the enemy. Bickering among ourselves is just what they want.
Steve in the ATL
@tobie:
Because he’s Palestinian?
Bupalos
Yeah well…who knows?
uncharted waters. For all the “the one thing I know is you never win when you do X” takes, let’s just acknowledge we’ve NEVER been here before and the one thing we know is that, that we’ve never fucking been here before and all the rules people are reaching for come from somewhere else. They may apply, they may not.
Maybe we’re better off confronting Trump after he’s wrecked more shit and more people are angry… maybe better off now. Let’s just admit we don’t fucking know, and understand how this whole team thing works, even while we’re losing. Badly. Embarrassingly. Different players are trying to figure it out, they may be wrong, you may be wrong… let’s understand we’re working for the same goal.
sab
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): Haven’t you learned yet this year that they don’t need grounds anymore? We are through the looking glass, as Adam Silverman often says.
Hoping Baud or Omnes talks me down from this. I used to lsneer at conspiracy theories. Now I believe them.
John S.
@Mai Naem mobil:
You make good points. I also assumed that being owned by Wall Street had much to do with what Schumer and Gillibrand did.
I have extra contempt for Gillibrand after reading this quote from her:
This from the person who rode Al Franken out on a rail for far less than what Cuomo was credibly accused of doing.
What amazing scruples she has.
schrodingers_cat
@zhena gogolia: Agreed.
I want the Democratic Party to stand for the idea of America which the current occupant is ripping to shreds. I love America, even though its not perfect.
Badgering Ds when its the Rs that are doing the most harm is ridiculous.
Jay
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):
A couple of MAGgot Reps have called for the FBI to investigate ActBlue for Campaign Finance Violations.
Basically a fishing trip.
bjacques
I think Schumer inadvertently did us all a favor by teasing a cloture refusal earlier. When Musk did “Yes! Yes!” like “Sicko” in the Jack Chick meme, we then knew a shutdown would be the shittier choice.
The calls for a shutdown sound like our side’s version of accelerationism.
That said, I don’t fancy our chances of a meaningful fight this autumn. But that’s for later. For now, I hope we keep targeting the organ grinder and not the monkey, to the point that Musk’s fortune drops below the level that dazzles Trump and he acquires a loser stink that makes him a political liability and encourages action by Trump henchcritters who worry about being sidelined by Musk’s minions.
New Deal democrat
@trollhattan:
OT, but that’s not just fiction. That *actually happened* with the Dominican Republic in 1872. It wanted to become a U.S. State, but was refused because the population was Brown.
zhena gogolia
@Melancholy Jaques:
I keep quoting because it’s so good.
John S.
@RevRick:
I usually enjoy your comments, but I think you’re way off.
Holding elected leaders accountable for their own actions isn’t “bickering”. And that’s a pretty dismissive way to write off all the people who want the people they vote for to do better.
sab
OT: I will be bringing this up a lot in the next few weeks. I want two meetups for Ohio this year. One in NE, another near Columbus.
Any jackals who have an interest should comment. I woudl be grateful to any frontpagers who want to assist. I am hoping for something after April. I am not good at organizing so input would be helpful.
I have hinted at this in prior years. This year I am determined.
zhena gogolia
@RevRick: I agree.
TheronWare
Chuck Schumer needed to retire about 10 years ago.
Nelle
It’s getting later in the day of 15 March. I had such fond hopes for the Ides of March.
zhena gogolia
@schrodingers_cat: I love America too.
zhena gogolia
@Nelle: Yes, sigh.
Doc H
I’ll just repeat what I skeeted:
Salty Sam
I had a conversation with one of my oldest friends from high school just as short while ago. He is a normie.
We kinda got into it when he announced he is waiting for Tesla stock to drop to a certain price and then he’ll buy in. I reacted. I’ll spare y’all the details, but basically he agrees that we are in the middle of a constitutional crisis, but he’s OK with that because “they need to fix the government. Everything’s too expensive, the government is stealing money from us.”
I had to tell him “…you are my friend, but I cannot continue this conversation with you.”
I’m sad, angry, and in despair. Too many of our “normie” citizens are just Neville Chamberlains circa 1938- it’ll all be ok, it’ll blow over soon.
Yeesh.
tam1MI
Let us also not forget that right on the heels of leading the lynch mob to force out Al Franken, a sexual harasser was discovered IN HER OWN OFFICE, and, rather than firing him right away, she decided to wait until after an investigation had been conducted because (sarcasm alert) even the worst among us deserve due process. (And then there was her, “I wuz just a poor widdle weak woman just goin’ along with the crowd” excuse she trotted out when the backlash for what she did to Franken hit).
Just a paragon of virtue, our Gilly. ::Spit::
Melancholy Jaques
@schrodingers_cat:
I guess we just disagree – respectfully I hope – about the relationship between the Democratic electorate (us) and the Democratic leadership (Schumer & senators). I do not believe we just sit & accept whatever they do.
The disagreement this last week was between two bad & unwanted choices. Which was worse, forcing a government shutdown or communication to the American electorate that Democrats don’t really object to what Trump & Musk are doing? There were legitimate differences. To point those out, to disagree with leadership’s choice is not badgering, it’s being an engaged and active member of the party.
I don’t want to continue to argue about that decision with people here because we are all on the same side. But I want to defend being engaged & active rather than passive & constantly supportive no matter what.
And I want Schumer to tell me when the next inflection point is. If we are not going to fight them on this, when do we stand our ground? And how much irreparable damage will be done between now & then?
TBone
@Salty Sam: sending best hopes that self care and comfort make that hole go away soon. Do the best you can by your own self first, it makes everything else just a bit easier and better.
tobie
@Steve in the ATL: I think Trump would say the same about all of us. Loud sigh.
ColoradoGuy
I wonder if Schumer didn’t get a last-minute call from the intel community, warning of the extreme danger of Russian-affiliated cyberterrorists wandering through empty Federal offices at will. At least with office staff present, they can observe what’s going on, if not obstruct, confuse, and slow-walk the cyberterrorism.
Noskilz
Schumer completely screwed up and must go.
If he truly felt the consequences of a shutdown would be vastly worse, he needed to make that case from the start, and not pull a bait-and-switch.
He betrayed everyone: his allies in the House, the Federal employees whose union made it clear they thought the existing CR was worse than a shutdown, the people willing to give him the benefit of the doubt when he said he was going to fight this thing, and of course the American people who now have a DOGE that has been blessed by the CR and a congress that has cut itself out of even the possibility dealing with Trump’s February emergency declaration.
Dude didn’t even get any kind of symbolic victory out of at least putting up a real fight even if he ultimately didn’t succeed. He just lied, and that is how it is going to play with the general public: that he is a liar and a fool who will just cave.
The GOP is definitely taking the lesson that he’s easy to roll.
He needs to be gone yesterday, and I hope his book tour is such an umitigated disaster that it burns itself into the senate’s memory for years to come.
John S.
@Melancholy Jaques:
The folks who don’t want to criticize Democrats seem to want to categorize any efforts to engage our elected officials and demand better of them as merely “bickering” or “badgering”.
This really doesn’t seem in good faith, and as I have already said, it’s pretty dismissive.
lowtechcyclist
@Baud:
I think it’s useful to consider what their electorates look like.
Cook PVI of D+10 or better is a pretty good stand-in for ‘safe.’ Even in a Republican wave year, we lose one of those districts almost never.
There are 128 House districts with Cook PVI of D+10 or better, and we hold all of them. Actually, we hold all but two districts with PVI of D+1 or better, the exceptions being CA-22 (D+5) and NY-17 (D+3).
Anyway, D+10 is safe, and IMHO we should have a shitload of fighters in the House on account of that, because we have more than half the caucus that can afford to be fighters. And we do have a few good ones over there: Crockett, AOC, Frost, and others.
Then you look at the Senate. Since Senators are elected statewide, it’s a whole different ballgame there. There are only six states, only 12 Senate seats, with a Cook PVI of D+10 or better. That’s not going to get you too many fighters. We’ve got a few, like Warren and Van Hollen, and they’re from D+14 and D+15 states. But most of our Senators don’t have that sort of safety.
So the fighters in the Senate are very much the exception, and it’s hard to expect otherwise. We’ve got to have 50 or 51 of them to do us any good, depending on who’s in the White House, which means we have to win Senate elections in Pennsylvania and Georgia and North Carolina.
I think they’re going to have to adjust to what’s happening and learn to be fighters, because that’s what we need right now, and fighters are going to win over the normies, the way things are going. But it’s going to be out of most Dem Senators’ comfort zones at first.
RevRick
@John S.: Well, I’m pretty pissed at all those who are endlessly yammering about what a massive, horrible, terrible failure Chuck Schumer is, when I recall, just a few years ago, the very same guy was shepherding all of Biden’s legislation and nominees through the Senate with no margin for error.
In any event, neither my opinion nor anyone else’s matters one iota as to whether Schumer remains as Minority Leader. The only opinions that count are those of the 47 Democratic Senators. As for keeping our legislators accountable that means that we have to do the tedious work of developing a personal relationship with them and their staffers and effusively thank them for their good work, because if it only means yelling at them when they disappoint us, well, that’s everybody’s bad, shitty boss.
cain
@geg6:
Yep and created ruptures within the Democratic caucuses when there needs to be unity.
That is what was bad about this. We already knew that Trump is going to get his way. But not telling your allies what’s up in a war I cannot countenance. Schumer failed his office
cain
@sentient ai from the future:
That’s how I make my eggplant Parm. I just grill up the eggplant and put cheese and diced tomatoes straight out of the can and then hit the garlic press a few times and then cook. So damn good.
A woman from anywhere (formerly Mohagan)
@oldgold: I saw this comment “not a wartime consigliare” first in a comment a few days ago and agree completely. Schumer is not meeting the moment despite what I am sure are good intentions, and he has to go. The “no” and then “yes” the next day is political malpractice, not to mention what others have said about the lack of preparation and drum beating in the month leading up to this.
Ohio Mom
@Salty Sam: That’s why I dumped almost all the Republicans from my life, mostly during the GW years (there are a few cousins I can’t do anything about but fortunately I don’t see or hear from them all that often). It’s some combination of heart-breaking and insulting to have them discount your opinion (especially when your opinion is based on data and facts, and their’s aren’t).
I don’t know what to tell you. It’s interesting to me that your friend understands we are in a Constitutional crisis but thinks it no big deal.
John S.
@RevRick:
I think you’re taking a maximalist position on those who are upset with Schumer, but I get that you are upset by that. I’m equally upset by the folks here who flatly state that we must never criticize Democrats regardless of what they do (and equate calls for action with childish behavior like bickering or badgering).
But the real issue is that there are decidedly two factions at war in the Democratic Party right now, being played out in a small way on this blog.
You, schrodingers cat, zhena gogolia, etc. all clearly share the same viewpoint. And there are many of us with an opposing viewpoint. And to a large extent, none of us are talking to each other. At all.
So we keep having these threads where one camp talks to each other and the other camp talks to each other, but there’s not much discussion between two groups of people who are like minded on almost 95% of the issues, and they don’t talk to each other.
I asked the question above, how can we move forward together? And it’s still an open question, but this place isn’t giving me much hope.
pajaro
@geg6:
I think it was going to take time for some of this to shake out. Whatever the merits of the fight, Schumer managed it horribly. We know we are not going to have someone who is a fighter by nature, but in this case he also did an awful job for his caucus, which was supposed to be his strength. The patriotic think for him to do is to accept the thanks. of his colleagues for his service, step aside and let a colleague who will do better in this particular moment take over the caucus.
danielx
@Melancholy Jaques:
Precisely. If not now, when? You, Schumer, do you have a backbone?
Or not?
Another Scott
I sometimes wonder if I’m living in a different reality these days; if the history I remember is vastly different from what seems to be in the back of other commenters’ minds.
E.g. The House hates the Senate and vice versa. They each crush the plans of the other, with regularity. As such, they mostly do what they do without worrying about the “other body”. It’s part of the job.
I too would enjoy the visceral, and ultimately necessary, public loss for 47 and the MAGAts, and it cannot come quickly enough. It would be very satisfying, for a few minutes or so.
And then my forebrain asks, “Now what?”.
[ sigh ]
I get the anger and the frustration and the demand for changes. But, as I said a few weeks ago, we just had elections. Our team is set. Their team is set. The players aren’t going to change (except for special elections and the like) until January 2027. We don’t have the majority, so there’s only so much Democrats can do at the moment. We have to muddle through with the team we have.
Keeping the courts running, preventing 47 from deciding that around 3/4 of the federal workforce is not “essential” and can be fired without any process or oversight, and all the things that Democrats can do in the minority to try to mitigate the damage, is important.
I continue to think that the way out of this mess is to win elections. We have to take power from the monsters. And to fight them in the courts every step of the way. If folks are frustrated with donating to Democrats now, maybe WG should have a fundraiser for Democracy Forward and/or similar outfits that are fighting in the courts once the special elections are over?
As I read the (WARNING Politico) stories, Schumer was attempting to get a vote on a 30 day clean CR to allow the normal budget process for FY25 to complete. Thune apparently refused (I see no sign of such a vote here.) At that point, Schumer had fought as well as he could with the cards he had. Democratic amendments that did get a vote lost 47-53 or 48-52. That seems to indicate that Schumer’s tactics (for good or ill) had little, if any, objective influence on the outcome. If there were no filibuster / cloture system in the Senate (as I and many others have argued for in the past), then we wouldn’t be having these electric discussions about Schumer screwing up the procedural vote, and the result would be the same.
“But! He could have Imposed Party Discipline and forced the Cloture vote to fail!” We’ll have to agree to disagree on that. Schumer cannot force any Democrat to do anything they don’t agree to do.
“But! Once the vote failed, then Thune would have to do what the Democrats want or the government would stay shut down!!” We have a history with 47 and shutdowns. He likes them. Melon likes them. There are real costs and real dangers (mass firings with no oversight or recourse) if they last too long. The monsters see their goal of drowning the federal government in a bathtub is finally within reach. There wouldn’t be pressure on Thune to compromise, there would be pressure on Schumer and Democrats to come up with 8 votes if they want the government to reopen.
YMMV.
I hope we find ways to direct our outrage and anger and disappointment toward things that will help correct the course in January 2027, or even sooner.
Hang in there, everyone.
[/soapbox]
Best wishes,
Scott.
zhena gogolia
@Another Scott: Thanks.
Betty
@trollhattan: Let’s say in Lutnik’s imaginary world, Greenland votes to join the US. Would they be a territory or a state? D. C. and Puerto Rico would like to know.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@Baud: The revolution is not going to come from the place everyone expects.
Jackie
Late to this dying thread, but I had a thought regarding Schumer’s befuzzling (deliberate typo) change… How much did he count on President Biden’s strength and advice to appear strong as Leader? It’s worth pondering…
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@geg6: I also recall Lincoln replaced McClellan with Burnside, which sort of vindicated McClellan that head on charges into prepared positions was an idiot move. Tactics we call “human wave” these days….
And those very same people who demanded McClellan had to go called Grant “The Butcher” for the body count from his Virginia campaign, and demanded Grant be replaced. Grant gave them fight they wanted and they didn’t like it.
Melancholy Jaques
@John S.:
I feel that nearly everyone here argues in good faith. Some, me included, may be a little too strident at times, thinking that if we just say one more thing we will convince those who disagree with us.
Socolofi
Late to this party, but +1000 on John’s original post.
Schumer & Jeffries need to be tied at the hip and have a coherent, combined strategy. If it turns out they’re jammed up, fine. They should STILL have a coherent, combined strategy.
It’s pretty clear to me that he’s not the right guy for the time.
WaterGirl
@Interesting Name Goes Here: Welcome to commenting!
Your first comment has to be manually approved, but future comments will show up right away for everyone.
Ksmiami
@RevRick: our people need to do better than they are. I wouldn’t excuse it in an employee or a boss, so why should I excuse it in party leadership. Enough. The old order is gone, time for a rethink
Barry
@oldgold: “Although I agree with Schumer’s decision concerning the shutdown, I concede that like Tom Hagen in the Godfather he is no Wartime Consigliere and needs to go.”
That is the way I have been putting it for a while.
John S.
@Another Scott:
I’d settle for less passive aggressive sneering masquerading as reasonableness. YMMV.
Geminid
@Melancholy Jaques: I’ve seen some good stuff from Samantha Hancox-Li over the past couple years or so. Hancox-Li strikes me as perceptive, pragmatic and honest. She calls herself a “Neon-Liberal” which indicates to me a sense of humor.
WaterGirl
@John S.: Very sorry to hear about your dad and your brother. That can totally throw you off kilter.
WaterGirl
@Steve in the ATL: I hope his middle name isn’t Hussein. //
WaterGirl
@Steve in the ATL: You are very bad!!! LOL
WaterGirl
@Melancholy Jaques:
Yes to every word of that!
Jackie
@Steve in the ATL:
A very fine sip of cabernet spewed out my nose…
Geminid
I keep seeing people say that Schumer and the 9 other Democrstic Senators who voted for cloture “betrayed” or “fu#ked over” House Democrats, but I do not see how House Democrats suffered any material political damage. It seems to me that the 214 Democratic Representatives who voted against the CR will come out of this affair in good shape politically.
Some might even think this was the optimal outcome; they took a strong stand against Trump and Mike Johnson but they won’t have to contend with the blowback incurred over a weeks-long wrangle over a government
RevRick
@John S.: Oh, most definitely, we’re talking past each other. But that’s probably because we’re fixed in our own emotional positions. I can’t speak for zhena or Schrödinger, but I am frustrated by the repetitious litany of complaints that only feeds on itself, and, for me, feels like a feeding frenzy of piranhas. It feels, for me, that nothing will satisfy Schumer’s critics save his being devoured alive. But ultimately, what does that accomplish?
Is the goal to whip everyone into a righteous froth so that they’re hair-trigger ready to beat wayward Democrats into submission? Is that the path we want to follow?
And clearly, what I seem to be hearing from a few sounds like a version of accelerationism. Let’s shut the government down and see what destruction Trump creates, because that will wake people up. I, for one, am not willing to gamble with other people’s lives.
Josh Marshall says Schumer was caught flat-footed by the unanimity of the House GOP. So? The Senate Democrats’ leverage always depended upon a fractured GOP House, and when that didn’t happen, the Senate Democrats were forced to choose between two poisons. No matter which direction they chose, it would be wrong. The Democrats who voted to invoke cloture took the political hit for the caucus so that no Democratic fingerprints are on the crime scene.
Now, I take the House Democrats cries of betrayal as hogwash, for the simple reason that their stance will cost them nothing.
How do we move forward?
My churchy response is that all community begins with confession, for whatever that’s worth.
WaterGirl
@RevRick:
Absolutely!
No One You Know
@Ksmiami: Yep. Knock out today’s Richard Spencer. Be prepared to punch out another one tomorrow. And for Good’s sake, could we please create some force that enables judges’s orders be enforced?
“You and what army?” isn’t what I expect to hear from defendants. But it’s what I hear now.
WaterGirl
@Jackie: That’s an interesting thought.
sab
If people are not worked up about most of American biomedocal anticancer research being defunded, I cannot imagine them even bothering to notice what is going on in Congress.
zhena gogolia
@RevRick: Well put.
zhena gogolia
@sab: True.
RevRick
@WaterGirl:
@Melancholy Jaques:
I find the way the alternatives were framed as either government shutdown or admitting they have no objection to what Trump and Musk are doing is, for me, dishonest. It paints the Democrats who voted to invoke cloture as being okay with the chaos and destruction those two have wrought. And that’s not fair, nor is it true. It’s ascribing to them all manner of bad faith when really that’s a colossal bunch of mind reading.
I see those Democrats who voted to invoke cloture as falling on their swords in a no-win situation.
The Audacity of Krope
@RevRick: Senate Democrats participated in ceding power to the executive that rightfully, Constitutionally belongs to them. Yet another choice by too many Democrats to avoid short-term pain by guaranteeing far more significant long-term pain.
Miss Bianca
@Baud:
In…Idaho? Uh…
Baud
@Miss Bianca:
Click through.
rebelsdad
I’ve been disappointed by Cuck Schumer for years now so it was hard for me to be surprised by his fecklessness but he still managed to do it.
Dude gotta go.
rebelsdad
@Ksmiami: fascism has an iron fist but a glass jaw.
Interesting Name Goes Here
@The Audacity of Krope: That would seem to be a trend throughout the entirety of the Democratic party, not just the ones who get elected. Once again, if people had turned out and recognized the gravity of the situation instead of throwing in their lot with the types of people who trade and specialize in unchecked, unanswered, and harmful criticism (“Gaza is speaking now, bitch,” for one thing), these situations would be largely avoided. But we don’t do that because it’s not stylish to. That’s how it looks to me.
Ruckus
@Suzanne:
THIS.
We are at a time that reason and rationality are in no way a part of the other side, at least at the top. What we are seeing is pure greed and pompous arrogance. And it’s not just the guy at the top. In my mind he’s now the spokesperson and the hothead and in charge only because of his title/office. His age and current mental capacity can make him sound like the leader, to those that believe in him. Other supporters are/are going to be looking for their place to fit in and take over.
And as you say/imply our side is not looking at this as what it is, anything but a normal political squabble. This is a take over. A theft of normalcy if you will.
Princess
@Ohio Mom: You probably won’t see this but Canadian news has crossed the border to the US to do interviews about the tariffs and they have a hard time finding people in US border states who even know that Trump has started a trade war with Canada.
Interesting Name Goes Here
@The Audacity of Krope: That seems to be a trend throughout the entirety of the Democratic party, and not just the ones elected to various positions.
How many times could Democratic voters have chosen to endure a little extra short-term pain in exchange for a brighter, more stable, and more secure future not just for themselves but their eventual descendants? How many times did they instead squander those chances for short-term comfort that eventually had to be paid for down the road? Perhaps more importantly…why do they get to escape blame?
It’s always Kamala’s fault. It’s Biden’s fault. It’s Hillary’s fault. Obama. Bill Clinton. Nancy Pelosi. Chuck Schumer. Hakeem Jeffries. Angela Alsobrooks. Harry Reid. Ruth Bader Ginsburg. Pick a name, and it’s their fault.
But it’s never our fault. Why is that?
It’s my hope that at some point in their latest…tour of various rural areas, Bernie and AOC will stop and ponder that question – out loud, even. Because from my outsider perspective, it seems like a distressing number of the people I’m supposed to call allies have strong interests in confronting any and everyone else but themselves. And it’s my fear that until that happens, none of this is going to change. Things will get painful and catastrophic, people will drop the nonsense and elect someone to fix it, and then it’ll once again become trendy to tear that person(s) to shreds until they get replaced by another Trump and the cycle begins anew.
Interesting Name Goes Here
OK, to whom this may concern, I’ve sent two comments and they’re not appearing, so if they do pop up and it seems like I’m responding twice to the same thing, I did. Ignore the first.
EDIT: …But this one shows right up. OK.
YY_Sima Qian
@Geminid: You’ve shared this speculation on the “real” motivation of House Dems several times. I for one hope & expect that House & Senate Dem are sincere w/ their stated reasoning, including those who voted Yes on cloture. If at this momentous occasion, a time of national peril, elected Dems can’t be straight w/ their constituents, when can they be? Why would anyone trust what they claim to stand for, or their promises for all the “good” they will do once back in power? (Wall Street won’t sudden disappear.)
I think such cynical calculations are too cute by half, & yes at least few elected Dems have probably thought along those lines. The “normies” will only remember that the Dems let the CR that is sure to be disastrous in many ways through when they could have filibustered it, & the MSM, Russian bots & the “online dirtbag left” will be sure to constantly remind them. OTOH, the most engaged & committed Dem supporters will smell the BS, & at least some will become disaffected, & start to look for alternative vessels to embody the resistance to the reactionary counterrevolution, as we are already seeing signs of in these threads.
Ruckus
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):
On the grounds that they are greedy, insane, power hungry assholes.
YY_Sima Qian
@New Deal democrat: Thank you for sharing this! None of us can afford to live in our respective cocoons, ignorant of how the elected Dem’s actions are actually perceived by the reactionaries or the public.
YY_Sima Qian
@geg6: +1. If the leaders of the elected Dems are impotent in the minority, & can’t be expected to be fighters or galvanize the opposition, then they are irrelevant. Why should then be trusted to accomplish anything more, whenever it is that Ds hold power again, than perpetuating the longstanding cycle of fixing just enough of the R created mess to get voted out?
Glory b
@RevRick: Thank you!
The “feeding frenzy” has gotten out of control.
My understanding of the law is that Trump could do unlimited furloughs of government employees if a shut down lasts more than (I think) 30 days.
That leaves the furloughed employees and the end of whatever agencies he decides to abolish, without legal recourse, which is available now.
The tiff between the House and Senate notwithstanding, Schumer made the best of a bad hand.
All of this Democratic frothing at the mouth is unproductive. A recent poll of Democratic voters indicated that they want a more centrist party. Maybe too many of us on here pay attention to our own circle & not enough to others.
Another poll of Democrats about leadership preferences? Jeffries was number 1, AOC got 2%.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/jeffries-newsom-aoc-no-consensus-101140243.html
https://www.semafor.com/article/02/13/2025/democrats-want-a-more-moderate-party-new-gallup-survey
Glory b
@YY_Sima Qian: Too many white people don’t want to vote for the party with the black people in it, especially when they have power.
Why do you think the DSA, Sunshine Dems, etc, are so overwhelmingly white?
tobie
This thread is probably dead but I’ll post for general information that there was an incredibly momentous emergency hearing this evening regarding whether Venezuelans in ICE custody could be sent to El Salvador (acting as a proxy prison warden for the US) under the Alien Enemies Act. Judge issued a 14-day restraining order on the Trump admin not just in favor of the individual plaintiffs in this case but a whole class of plaintiffa. Planes were literally taking off as the hearing took place and at least one landed in El Salvador. The DOJ has appealed the TRO to the DC Circuit for an emergency hearing. Here’s Aaron Reichlin Melnick’s live skeeting of the hearing.
https://bsky.app/profile/reichlinmelnick.bsky.social/post/3lkgzk4loc22i
YY_Sima Qian
@Glory b: What’s the polling on Schumer as Senate Minority Leader, which is more relevant to the matter at hand?
Can you also share the polling that says Dem voters want a more “centrist”’party? IMHO, elected Dems concede to the “middle”, rhetorically & substantively, is how we are caught in this cycle of Dems fixing just enough of R created messes to be voted out. Also, in the current context, going toward the “center” means throwing Trans people & Arab/Muslim Americans under the bus, agreeing to cuts in Federal spending (albeit less than DOGE) while not raising taxes on the rich, & raising defense spending that is welfare for the MIC.
Jackie
@tobie: This sickens me. One more of many layers of sickeningness.
Interesting Name Goes Here
OK, I’m still trying to figure out this commenting system here, so I’m just going to post this free of replies and express this viewpoint.
I’ve been lurking here for the better part of a year now, and I have seen it so often framed here and elsewhere on the Internet and in the media that the only people who can be held accountable for anything are Democrats that are in positions of visibility and power. As I pointed out in a post that seems to have disappeared into the ether, it doesn’t matter who it is – all that matters is that it’s their fault. During Trump’s first term, I even saw some commenters on other forums blaming people like John Lewis, of all people, for not doing more.
Here’s my question – at what point do We the People get placed under that same microscope? We the People want fighters, but don’t want to do anything to elect them even if it’s as little as filling out a ballot. We the People want smart and savvy, and then those who do have that are asked to not use any of that in favor of the exact opposite. We the People talk of unity and then fracture at the jangling of a set of keys. And in my lifetime, the only times that We the People have actually stood on their alleged business is when things got too nightmarish to ignore (the 2008 Financial Crisis and COVID come to mind, because those are the only two times in my voting life when people actually cut the nonsense).
Why are We the People above reproach in all of this? Why are We the People above suspicion? Why do we waste time haranguing, harassing, excoriating, and demonizing the people who are elected to help us…but then do next to nothing to actually better things when given the opportunity?
I’d like to see someone answer that, and actually answer it instead of giving the usual defensive responses, because I do not believe this hellish cycle will ever be broken until it is. Things will get too unbearable, someone will be elected and appointed to fix it, and then that person(s) will become Public Enemy Number One until the next Trump comes along to replace them, at which point here we go again.
WaterGirl
@Interesting Name Goes Here: I replied to you at #195, that may help clarify things for you.
Interesting Name Goes Here
@WaterGirl: I saw. I sent the replies prior to making that post, though, but have since decided to make an entirely separate post – #231, which did go through.
eldorado
In any event, neither my opinion nor anyone else’s matters one iota as to whether Schumer remains as Minority Leader
huge crowds protesting his appearances at his book tour could have an effect
WaterGirl
@Interesting Name Goes Here: Hi again. Okay, your comment at #235 (the one I am replying to) went into SPAM. I found your other two missing comments in SPAM, too.
All 3 have been released from SPAM.
Can you reply to this message from me? I want to see if it will show up or if it will go into SPAM. Not sure what’s going on, but if you reply that will help me figure it out. thanks.
Interesting Name Goes Here
@WaterGirl: Test, test, 1, 2, 3.
WaterGirl
@eldorado: Yeah, the whole book tour while Rome is burning – maybe not a great look for either Schumer or Jeffries.
Release dates and book tours were no doubt set months ago – they may have been counting on a victory in November, which would have meant a very different situation.
YY_Sima Qian
@Glory b: That is true, but you/we still need a large enough minority of White voters (& stanch losses among Hispanic Americans & other minorities) to win elections, let alone sustain a large & long enough lasting majority to effect lasting change, to get out of the cycle we have been in.
Frankly, these pasty white Lefty groups have very little power in Dem politics, let alone politics in general, other than their not all that large megaphones. (How often are they featured in MSM?) the one time Sanders was relevant was in ‘20, & he parlayed the leverage he had, supporting Biden, in exchange for pushing the Dem domestic policy program further left. Which is also the one time Sanders has taken the politically pragmatic & sensible course. Of course, wven in ‘16 he eventually got behind Hillary Clinton, & IIRC was not stingy on the campaign trail for her during the general election, & focused his fires against the Rs.
pajaro
@Geminid:
I know and support some purple state democratic MOC’s. This was a difficult vote for them, as they won their elections in part by letting the independents in their districts know that they were reach across the aisle and support bipartisan solutions that helped their constituents. Their Republicans opponents next time will use their obstructionist behavior against them. If Schumer was not going to fight, he should have let these MOC’s know, so they could have broken ranks.
People here take the position that for all Dems. the easier vote was a no vote, and that’s just not the case for the most vulnerable members of the party.
WaterGirl
@Interesting Name Goes Here: Okay, that one came through as it should have. Yay!
Brendan In NC
Schumer needs to be forced to imitate Nancy Pelosi; and become a backbencher. I’d love to see Amy Klobuchar take the mantle as Senate Leader. Schumer screwed the House Dems because he’s (D-Wall Street), like we used to call Biden (D-MBNA). We need a Congress filled with AOC’s and Hakeem Jefferies’; who understand the changing situation, and are trying to keep the framework of a Democracy alive – without worrying about “How we’ve done it for years”
WaterGirl
@Interesting Name Goes Here: I have a question about something you wrote:
The part in bold gives me pause. who is doing next to nothing to actually better things when given the opportunity?
Are you talking about the Democratic party? Or individual democrats? I think democrats do a lot of great things when in power. Can you say more about the point you are making?
Geminid
@YY_Sima Qian: My comment was not “speculation” about the “real motivations” of House Democrats. It’s an analysis of their actual political situation in the aftermath of these votes, collectively and individually. There are a lot of different aspects to this matter but “House Democrats getting fucked over” is not one of them, and that was the point of my comment.
Brendan In NC
@pajaro: I can agree with this. It’s like Pelosi giving Jared Golden the opportunity to vote with Republicans unless it was absolutely necessary. In this case, completely safe Dems should allow purple district Dems only to break ranks. But Schumer can’t count; and will always do what Wall Street demands…
John S.
@WaterGirl:
Thanks. That it does.
Interesting Name Goes Here
@Brendan In NC: The irony here is that no less than a week ago, Hakeem Jeffries was as close to persona non grata as you could get. Now he’s That Dude.
This whole mess got a whole lot grayer when I learned from The Red Pen (Red Fox?) in one of last night’s threads that government regulations existed that would have turbocharged the things that are happening now after 31 days, and that we had precisely the government in place to actively pursue it. If we know that, the Senate knew that. So what else don’t we know?
I’m not expecting (or particularly hoping) for Schumer to suddenly become That Dude, but I do suspect things will come out down the road that’s going to paint this entire episode in a different light.
John S.
@RevRick:
We’re not going to get very far if we keep talking past each other.
I confess to being as guilty of that as anyone else in the past, but that’s not going to define my present or future.
Interesting Name Goes Here
@WaterGirl: My point is, Democratic voters are abstaining from their duties, which are as little as simply showing up to the polls. And they’ve been doing that for decades and using reasons of varying (and in my opinion, declining) quality to justify that. But that can’t be criticized. That can’t be questioned. Hell, depending on who you ask, you shouldn’t even speak of it. It’s always someone else’s fault – Hillary was too unpopular. Biden too old. Obama too centrist (to explain away both of his midterms). Kamala didn’t do this or did too much of that. Hakeem Jeffries is too Wall Street (but, at the moment, appears to now be That Dude again). So on and so forth.
But what are WE doing? Because I feel like if we were doing what we needed to be doing, Trump would never have been a thing. We’d be discussing how President Harris would continue the legacy that President Sanders left behind. At what point do WE take that look in the mirror and realize that WE played a hand in this, and probably a larger hand than we care to admit? Why does that point only come after the bottom has fallen out, or (video game analogy) we’ve gotten uppercutted off of the bridge and are hurtling into the spiky pit below?
YY_Sima Qian
@Geminid: When you said that “some/many”House Dems might have preferred this particular outcome despite their publicly stated preferences, you are in fact speculating about their real motivations.
It’s not that the dynamic you described does not exist, we have all seen the media reports that Sinemachin were fronting for a group of 5 – 10 Dem Senators who, for example, did not want to nuke the filibuster but also did not want to catch fire from their supporters. I don’t think that is ever good politics even at the tactical level, & most certainly not at this moment.
As for the actual political situation for individual House Dems in the aftermath, I think the only ones this has benefit are those in safe D districts to begin w/. For those in contested districts, they get no credit for the CR passing & thus [we all hope] averting worse disasters, but will get blamed by swing voters for voting against the CR. Their partisan supporters could be more energized, but is that enough to save them in the next election?
I am reminded of the House Dems in purple districts voting for the version of ACA w/ a public option, which was politically unpopular in their districts but perhaps aligned w/ their personal convictions, only to have the Senate strip it out. They were then demogogued by the Rs on those voted & lost in the mid-terms.
If House Dems really thought CR is better than shutdown, then they should have supported & pushed Senate Dems to negotiate for concessions before voting Yes on cloture. There are ways for the messaging to work, but that is not what happened.
Melancholy Jaques
@RevRick:
You may not like the framing & it is for sure not fair or completely accurate, but that is how normies view what is going on. Trump & Musk are taking action; Democrats did nothing to stop them.
There are facts & there are narratives. Right now & for the last 20 years or so, the facts favor us Democrats, but the narratives all run against us.
pajaro
@zhena gogolia:
Screaming against the fascists doesn’t help. Voting against them does. Schumer had a chance to do so, and actually said he was going to, and then changed his mind.
I get that it was a tough vote. But John is right, the way Schumer acted toward the caucus was unforgivable.
And the idea that the members of Congress don’t have time to reconsider whether Schumer is the right person to be Minority Leader, or that we shouldn’t waste our time when we call them to ask them to make this change is kind of rich. Our members of Congress have just given up the most substantial stick they had and will have for months. They are in recess now. We really do have time to change Minority Leaders, if the party wishes to. If Schumer cared about the future of the party, he would offer to resign. there are other competent Senators who more accurately represent the center of the Democratic Party right now. If I’m wrong, the members could rally around him and we would be done.
pajaro
@Melancholy Jaques:
It is a fact that the Democrats had the power to block consideration of the continuing resolution and failed to do so. It is also a fact that the Minority Leader said they were going to oppose the Republican budget and then changed his position, and that his position was contrary to the overwhelming majority of his party in Congress.
RevRick
@eldorado: Unlikely. Minority/Majority Leaders are chosen for several reasons, but being popular is not one of them. In fact, more often than not, they are the sh1t magnets for the caucus. What counts far more in that small church we call the Senate is the ability to schmooze and connect with the Senators of their respective parties. Most Senate leaders are completely unmemorable. Because they are workhorses, not race horses. And in many ways they are supposed to be as inscrutable as diplomats.
pajaro
@YY_Sima Qian:
This times 1000.
pajaro
@Interesting Name Goes Here:
If this is true, tell me why the federal employees union, which represents the people whose jobs are most on the line, urged a vote against the CR?
They did so because the budget that’s in the CR is pretty much what the Republicans are likely to do in the event of a shutdown. They are already stripping federal agencies, and they came right out and said Friday that they were going to continue to refuse to spend in order to prevent waste, fraud, and abuse.
Interesting Name Goes Here
@pajaro: I don’t know. That would be a question to ask the leaders of that union. Maybe they felt that the Republicans would blink first. Under what pretense in this current climate is another wild guess, because as Wired reports here, a shutdown appears to be exactly what Musk and Co. were banking on.
Again, what don’t we know? Because if that’s what we’re learning now, imagine what House and Senate Democrats know.
pajaro
@RevRick:
the alternatives were voting against closure, thereby requiring the ruling party to negotiate or risk a shudown, or allowing the Republican majority to pass the CR on a majority vote. That was the choice. They chose to allow the majority to do something they could have prevented. Their arguments are that 1) Republicans, unlike every previous situation, would not negotiate and 2) that after 30 days, they do do stuff that is worse than what they are already doing. We don’t know for sure what Republicans would have done, since they haven’t done it yet.
I am persuaded by the position of the federal employees union, whose members have the most to lose, and who argued for democrats to oppose the CR. If I understand their position correctly it’s that the budget in the CR is essentially a shutdown budget, that the people are going to gain nothing by the Democrats have given up their leverage.
Glory b
@YY_Sima Qian: i don’t have polling on Schumer’s popularity, but this is a Gallup poll.
https://www.semafor.com/article/02/13/2025/democrats-want-a-more-moderate-party-new-gallup-survey
Ironic that Muslims, who, as I recall, were pretty Republican before 9/11, are (or were before 10/7) leaning more Republican based on their shared animosity towards LGBTQ people.
The majority Muslim Hamtramck city government banned the flying of rainbow flags and their mayor endorsed Trump and called his black constituents “animals.”
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jun/17/hamtramck-michigan-muslim-council-lgbtq-pride-flags-banned
Ruckus
@brantl:
Long ago I was a mental health counselor. This situation is not much removed from most of my clients negative sides. Both want what they cannot have, both believe that whatever they want or say is always the correct thing, when it only is by accident, which maybe happens 1 in 1000 times. I may be low balling that guess-estimate. A lot.
Omnes Omnibus
@pajaro: Cloture, please. Not closure.
Cynical guy
This is really a test for those who opposed cloture. If they do not remove Schumer, it will justify (for the n-teenth time) my cynicism with respect to dem politicians. That leaves me nowhere to go except to continue to vote against Republicans. I’ll continue that pattern, but I’ve rarely voted “for” a Democrat. Just against the Republican. By nature, politicians will do anything to maintain or advance their position, and when it looks like they are on your side, don’t take it too seriously. We all know that. There are countless non-sensical laws and regulations that will only ever be addressed by the few, and, to (mis?)quote Lyndon Johnson, “it will be as consequential as a popcorn fart”. And big money will always prevent both parties from bringing the courts into accord with the Constitution.
YY_Sima Qian
@Glory b: The MAGA reactionaries will not be going after the reactionaries among Muslim Americans, at least not at the start.
Geminid
@pajaro: I’ve watched how Democrats campaign in purple districts across the country and I’ve talked about it a lot here.
I’ve also seen it first hand watching Abigail Spanberger and Eugene Vindman win elections in the Virginia 7th CD. They talked up bipartisanship and “reaching across the the aisle” a lot. I was all for this because Independents hold the balance of power in this district, and that’s the kind of stuff they want to hear.
But Spanberger and Vindman always speak of seeking bipartisan solutions when possible, as a potential means towards an end and not an end in itself.
This talk of bipartisanship stands Democrats like Spanberger and Vindman in good stead when it comes to a vote like the one on Mike Johnson’s CR. This is extremely partisan legislation in substance and by process, and it can be attacked as such.There was nothing bipartisan about it whatsoever.
So I don’t believe this was a risky vote for purple district Democrats, from Don Davis in North Carolina to Janelle Bynum in Oregon and two dozen “Frontliners” in between.
It might have been if the overall process had resulted in a protracted government shutdown, but it didn’t. It’s purple district Republicans who will be punished for their votes on this bill.
YY_Sima Qian
@Glory b: Thank you for sharing the link to the Gallup Poll, but not sure what “moderate” & “more centrist” mean in this context, so I don’t really find it illuminating.
YY_Sima Qian
@Geminid: I hope you are right, but we’ll see how things turn out. We’ll be back at this in 6 months.
YY_Sima Qian
Dems’ ability to criticize the disastrous results of the CR will be undermined by having 8 members voting for cloture (clink the link for the more comprehensive list of institutions/agencies to be defunded):
Geminid
@YY_Sima Qian: Senate Republicans were not going to make concessions in return for cloture votes. Patty Murray had a plan to offer an amendment allowing for 30-day clean CR in order to negotiate a longer one, but she withdrew it. That amendment needed four Republican votes to pass and there might not have been even been one willing Republican defector.
When this general plan was discussed here Thursday night I could see an obvious flaw: Republicans had no incentive to compromise. They were willing to go to a shutdown and they believed they would maintain the stronger political position throughout one.
As for swing voter behavior in next year’s midterms, I do not believe that swing voters will punish Democrats for this bill. It’s a bad bill in substance, and a vote against it will be considered a good vote next November when the effects of this legislation have been felt in their entirety.
I care a lot about Democrats in battleground districts and follow them fairly closely, but I do not see this vote as any reason to worry. On the other hand, I’m pretty sure purple district Republicans will be punished by many Independents for their votes on this bill, because it goes too far.
And some hard-core conservatives will punish them, because in their eyes it doesn’t go far enough. It does not substantially cut spending, and it leaves the projected deficit for this year at $1.7 trillion. And it it could easily end up $2 trillion if not more.
The complaints started as soon as the House passed the bill. Last year Republicans– and in particular Freedom Caucus members– made a lot of big campaign talk about deficit reduction and now some of their followers feel they’ve been hoodwinked. I don’t how many of these malcontents there are, but from the small amount of Republican social media I run into I know there are some and they pissed off.
Geminid
@YY_Sima Qian: I’m a Democrat and so many Democratic Senators voting for cloture does not inhibit me from criticizing the substance of this CR. Maybe it inhibits you, but that is a choice and I think a poor one.
YY_Sima Qian
@Geminid: I think the substance of the CR is monstrous, & I am more than willing to express it. However, such criticism will beg the question why Senate Dems allowed it to pass when they had a chance to stop it, I don’t see how that benefits the Dems in general. At best it is fodder for “Dems in disarray.”
eldorado
@RevRick:
removal from the minority leader position is not just in the hand’s of the senate
Chief Oshkosh
@Princess: The masses being asleep? That’s been a problem forever. Schumer’s actions did nothing to take that into account. I don’t see it as a factor in what he ended up doing.
I think back to the couple of meetings where Nancy Smash and Schumer left meetings with Trump clearly having cleaned his clock. I’d always assumed that it was Nancy Smash that was both the brains and the brawn behind those ass-whuppins. I’m convinced of it now.
WaterGirl
@Interesting Name Goes Here: Interesting take, but I don’t agree that WE are not doing anything. I am personally doing a fair amount. Many others on Balloon Juice are doing a lot.
That’s not nothing.
Now the people who don’t bother to show up to vote? Totally with you on that. I would bet you right now that most of those people have no fucking clue what’s going on right now. People unlawfully detained, unlawful deportation, torture. It’s appalling. And i do hold accountable those people who couldn’t be bothered to vote.
Chief Oshkosh
@Melancholy Jaques:
I agree. This is a theme that I keep coming back to. Some Democrats are doing a good job of communicating it and acting on it (obviously, AOC for communicating; not sure who in the Senate has the level of communication prowess AND can count). Some do not. The latter need to be removed from party leadership. They have other strengths, possibly, and should be in other roles that require those strengths.
Ross
I firmly believe they did the wrong thing, but I have empathy for them. Their read of the election is “The voters punished us for being too vocal. They are going to blame us for anything that goes wrong. The right move is to keep our heads down and avoid conflict”. And TWO OF THOSE THREE SENTENCES are absolutely correct. The third is very wrong, but it’s the message most normal people would take from the situation. “If we shame them, they will stand up and fight back” seems to be what a lot of people are hoping will happen with the democrats. But that’s not how human psychology normally works. I don’t know how to fix it.
Bucky Reynolds
This sounds like 1933 appeasement and look at where that got us. Schumer is the new Neville Chamberlain, and Fetterman is the new Lord Halifax.
Interesting Name Goes Here
@WaterGirl: It’s not so much individual people like yourself or even most of the people here that are the problem. When I say WE, I mean it in a general sense, because when you look at the larger picture…WE just don’t get out and vote until it becomes too painful not to.
I’m a 39-year-old black man, and the first time I was eligible to vote was 2004 when I turned 18. In this 21-year span of time, I have watched voter apathy, disinterest, and malicious and deliberate distractions effectively and threaten to derail every good thing that has happened in my adult life. But we don’t dare address that critically. We don’t dare confront it. Instead, we blame the losers (and even our winners!) for not living up to the comic-book expectations, set our sights on the Next Big Thing, and then when they don’t perform to those expectations they get shredded until external factors intervene to shut people up and make them fly right…but for only a little bit.
That has to stop. Of all the problems I have with my fellow Democrats and progressives, that right there has to come to an end, and it needed to come to an end in 2008. You can’t make progress if you’re constantly fixing shit, and rebuilding from ashes is a really bad way of going about things. I don’t know what it’s going to take to get people to realize that, and I am not particularly enthusiastic about finding out, especially when I know that there are a distressingly large number of so-called allies who – if things got really, really bad – would turn on me and my kind in a heartbeat with little more than a gentle push. I have felt this way since the election, and frankly it’s been exponentially worse than the first time we dealt with this, because there was no valid excuse. Not a single one. And anyone who thinks that there was one is being played by the Elon Musks and Mark Zuckerbergs of the world like a harp.
Ol' Fezziwig
Please help Federal Workers by shutting down the government.