As is this story. (AP) Updated with much more detail from The Guardian.
Yuval Abraham, co-director of Oscar-winning documentary “No Other Land,” says Israeli settlers beat his co-director Hamdan Ballal, injuring his head and stomach — and then Israeli soldiers invaded the ambulance he was in and seized him. Ballal’s whereabouts are now unknown.
And this.
Instagram link about a green card holder and his family.
It’s all quite overwhelming.
Stories about good things that happened today would be appreciated.
Open thread.
Barney
Pioneering trial could ‘switch off’ arthritis
Patients are taking part in a trial that scientists hope could ultimately lead to a cure for rheumatoid arthritis.
The AuToDeCRA-2, external study seeks to prove it is possible to train white blood cell commanders – dubbed the “generals” of the immune system – to order other “soldier” cells to stop attacking healthy tissues.
Prof John Isaacs, who has worked on the condition for 35 years and is leading the research, believes this could make it possible to “switch off” rheumatoid arthritis.
Newcastle arthritis study hopes to ‘switch off’ pain – BBC News
E.
Folks, hit that Instagram link. Whoa.
NotMax
Magnets. Is there anything they can’t do?
Clever tech. But don’t hold your breath for any but possible future commercial/industrial application.
;)
eclare
@E.:
Saw that earlier. Horrific. Only meager good thing is that the funding request, initially set at $15k, is now over $100k.
Gloria DryGarden
Good things, teeny tiny graces:
some phone calls that got through, laughter, offers of help, arrangements to see each other for help or lunch. (Some days no one answered, nothing got through, phones didn’t work, and there were no replies, so it’s good, in its minimal way.
Great mini coaching from a friend, giving and receiving kindnesses, little gifts.
A few emails that got replied to, after a few days awaiting it. A submitted info piece got included in someone else’s write up, and became useful for the awareness of others.
A warmer day, close to 70, and a week ahead in the 70s, up to 80. Lovely.
kind people and good food at a potluck and drum circle a few days back.
A few crocuses blooming in the front yard, weeks late, but there they are, rays of sunshine and color.
when regular stuff is adequate, it isn’t necessarily minor, considering how things have sometimes fallen apart and how basics have been troubling, at times. So, yay.
WaterGirl
@E.: I know, that one really hits home.
oldster
Did you mean to give us a link for the Abraham/Ballal story? I don’t see one. Thanks!
frosty
Oh, shit, we had an overwhelming day? I’ve been balancing the checkbook and credit cards and trying to put a 2025 budget together and that’s overwhelming enough for me. I’m not going to look.
Gloria DryGarden
@eclare: is that the guy in Maine? Saw that yesterday, cried, shared it forward.
cain
We’re heading into a place where it’s all for-profit everything especially prisons. Imagine having to make up crimes – but looks like green card holders, and others are first – but also likely naturalized citizens like me are next.
I don’t know what the end goal is other than total systemic collapse. I hope that we can manage to win back the house and create some kind of bulwark. But I don’t know when we’re going to hit a crises and it’s all going to hell.
Anyways, I’m here in Phoenix and I actually got to see this Tempe, AZ that the blogfather and his wife and pubs are at. Nice place. But way too hot for me.
NutmegAgain
@Barney: Just RA, or OA too? Either way, as a person riddled with arthritis, that is a thrilling development.
Glidwrith
Youngest is going to be paid on a research grant as a FRESHMAN after working their behind off in a lab to demonstrate their reliability. I’m about to bust a gut, so proud!
brendancalling
@E.: shared on my story.
my ex has a green card. I worry about her constantly.
ETA, Good stuff: My current partner’s colonoscopy went well today. No concerns, next one scheduled for 10 years from now.
Baud
@Glidwrith:
Awesome.
Steve LaBonne
You sent me off to the Guardian to look for good news and… shit. Sorry.
eclare
@Gloria DryGarden:
Yes.
Ihop
Tiny good things? Here are the tiniest. My hens, even the oldest (7-8 years old) are producing. 19 eggs today. And the lady goose laid her first egg of the season. Gonna make goose egg quiches this weekend. Ham, leeks and extra sharp cheddar.
Dorothy A. Winsor
I’m reading the third Dungeon Crawler Carl book and Donut (Carl’s cat) just got a new tiara that, among other things, “removes automatic hostility by worshippers of Mana Genita.” Turns out Mana Genita is a goddess, but I initially misread that as Male Genitalia.
Does that improve your day?
eclare
@Ihop:
Yum!
WaterGirl
@oldster: Sorry, I saw it in about 5 different places. Link added up top.
WaterGirl
@Gloria DryGarden: Yes, the family in Maine.
bbleh
Flowers out all over the Philly Parkway, and (sheltered) cherry trees blooming. THEY don’t care about the Orange Idiot.
WaterGirl
@Glidwrith: That’s amazing news! That would have been unheard of at the university here.
Josie
@Dorothy A. Winsor:
I read it exactly the same way. What does that say about us?
Dorothy A. Winsor
@Josie: Really? Somehow, that’s comforting.
WaterGirl
You guys are coming through with good stuff, thank you.
WaterGirl
What do you guys think of the top image? Justified? Over the top?
eclare
Just a funny photo
Link
WaterGirl
WaterGirl
@WaterGirl: I like that:
Harrison Wesley
@bbleh: Damn. Wish I could jump on a plane for a quick trip back there. Used to live a few blocks off the parkway and walked my dog up by the Art Museum.
WaterGirl
@eclare:
Search results don’t always work on other computers, and it didn’t work on mine. If you text me the link I can update your comment.
eclare
@WaterGirl:
I think it’s justified.
Baud
@WaterGirl:
For a second, I thought you were praising your own comment.
eclare
@WaterGirl:
Will do!
schrodingers_cat
Not Jewish but calling Jewish people Nazis which this image above does is not a good look
Shalimar
My brain hurts from the stupidity of this USA Today headline:
Trump says countries that buy oil, gas from Venezuela must pay 25% tariff to US
That is not how tariffs work and I am confused about how we can collect that protection money.
comrade scotts agenda of rage
@WaterGirl:
Absolooootly not. It’s shocking but people need to be shocked in a way like this.
Martin
Not too overwhelming. Just got back from visiting my son, so today has been a 325 mile drive with complete ignorance of the horrors of the world. But California is lovely as ever – mid 80s, still snow on the mountains, green hills from recent rains. Spent a few days in the crunchier part of the state where there are no chains and where any shack with 4 tables outside of it could be the best meal you ever ate in your life, and where nobody looks like me, which I find to be just delightful. Decent number of ‘Fuck Trump’ banners on the overpasses.
Martin
@schrodingers_cat: Acting like nazis is an even worse look.
WaterGirl
@eclare:
Even though I am not anti-Jewish, and I believe the jewish people have a right to a country where they are safe, and I always supported the concept of Israel, I hate what the current government is doing. It’s appalling.
WaterGirl
I think one thing we can run on is corruption – Republicans are now the party of corruption.
WaterGirl
@Baud: Ha! I can see how it might look like that.
WaterGirl
@Martin: What does a crunchier part of the state mean? Reference to lack of rain? Something else?
zhena gogolia
@schrodingers_cat: I agree.
JPL
@WaterGirl: Most Jewish Americans hate what he is doing also.
russell
The fundraiser for the family in Waldo County ME is now up over $150K. Hopefully that will pay for some legal help in addition to groceries.
This country historically goes back and forth between being amazing and terrifying. Sometimes all at once. We’re back on the “terrifying” tip again. Which, apparently, suits some folks just fine.
eclare
@WaterGirl:
My thoughts exactly.
MagdaInBlack
I bought a little tub of bite size dark chocolate almond butter cups at Trader Joe’s today. That’s a really good thing =-)
scav
@WaterGirl: At this point, they’ve really begun to earn it. At some point, the get out of consequences card runs out.
Marc
@eclare: I’ve been over that bridge on a bus, it’s a wild ride. The Seto Bridge direct from Honshu (Okayama area) to Shikoku is farther west, bigger, longer, and it carries both cars and JR West trains.
eclare
@WaterGirl:
I assume he means Lola Granola hippie types.
Jay
@Shalimar:
Thinking too deep into the derp rots the brain.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSo5HVjbWOE
Princess Bride reference.
eclare
@MagdaInBlack:
I bought two bags of Smartfood white cheddar popcorn. I did not set out to buy two bags, but my dog proved that yes, she can reach the top of my upright piano. So a second trip to the store.
Season finale of The Bachelor tonight, I must have popcorn 🍿
YY_Sima Qian
@schrodingers_cat: Whoever did the graffiti could have gone w/ “Fascist”, but at the end of the day it is on the Israeli government to not act like Nazis, or people will simply draw the obvious parallel & the obvious irony. The once persecuted becoming persecutors in turn is as old as history.
eclare
@Marc:
Small world! Or well traveled blog!
MagdaInBlack
@eclare: I’ve become fond of cheddar rice crisps. They really solve the crunchy munchie desire/need.
Martin
@WaterGirl: Something else. I live in OC, which is pretty upscale consumerist. My son lives by Santa Cruz, which possesses exactly three smells – beach, patchouli and weed (often all together). Strong do your own thing/fuck corporate America vibe there, lot of granola (hence the crunchy), lot of vegans, open mics, homeless, people just doing their own thing not giving a fuck if you approve or not.
eclare
@MagdaInBlack:
I’ll have to look for those! Not really a chocolate or sweets person. My vice is salty.
arrieve
This made me laugh (it was a week ago but still funny.) I was walking home from a dermatologist appointment and I passed a restaurant on Second Avenue called “Thai Food Near Me.”
I googled when I got home and it was indeed the first restaurant at the top of the results, even though it’s on the other side of town.
Martin
Depends on who is doing the terrorizing and who is getting terrorized.
WTFGhost
Well, as some of you know, I recently got my new Medical Marijuana Card, and immediately used it to try to get high, but… well, it’s hard to get through the lamination, and I’m not sure the card, itself, contains any intoxicating substances.
So I went to my local dispensary instead, and… I’m learning more.
I tried RSO – Rick Simpson Oil – which should have hundreds of migs of usable THC, but it never seemed to have an effect on me, either consumed, or sublingually. Not saying it won’t work for you! Just, didn’t for me.
I then tried using concentrates – THC distillate – to give myself a “real” 100mig dose, and found that it works… which proved that the RSO didn’t.
I’ve also discovered, per advice from a friend, that if you need medical marijuana, you probably want what’s called a “dab rig”, because you can vaporize hash, rosin, Butane Hash Oil (BHO), and probably a few other products I don’t know about. The big deal about these dab-style concentrates, is, they might be 90+% THC, whereas really good marijuana flower is only about 25%. You can get the equivalent of two or more joints in less time than it takes to smoke one, and, these concentrates don’t tend to cause smoke or soot, so your lungs may (or may not!) be less damaged by vaping. Vaping is a risk; your lungs are indescribably important. But sometimes, it’s “let’s see, pollute my lungs, or worry about lead poisoning?”
I’m learning to use a dab rig without causing wheezing in my lungs, which means I can reduce a lot of “OMG pain is killing me, like, literally!” to “he he, fooking pain things it’s got my effing number, but ain’t nothing got my number.”
(It’s true: when I changed cell phones, I changed phone numbers, and I still haven’t informed my contacts from the old phone. I should probably get to that, except, after 18 months or more, it gets kinda awkward, “so, the reason you’re just learning this now is…”. So when death comes calling, it’ll go to voice mail.)
If your pain isn’t serious enough, of course, you might not need a dab rig – some people would rather light one up, anyway, but… there’s also another option. You can vape dried flower – you use a convection style device (that means “it sends a lot of really hot air”) to heat the MJ enough to vaporize all the goodies in MJ, but, below 451 Fahrenheit (usually, 400 or (yes, yes) 420 is the maximum heat). Again, this is likely, but not certainly, better for your lungs than smoking, because there are no combustion by-products.
And when you start, it’s great to start with edibles. Just 5migs of THC is enough to make a newbie feel a bit goofy and playful, and have a bit of synesthesia, etc.. Very few people need as much THC as I do, to live. In fact, “over 100migs THC” is considered a problem, in Washington at least, if you are talking to a therapist.
So me, trying to get down hundreds of migs a day, that would be a problem… if I wasn’t dealing with intractable pain, PTSD, etc. ad nauseum.
Now, if you use edibles, you need to be aware, they first have to dissolve in your stomach, then, it must get to your bloodstream, and then, it must get to your liver, which is when it makes you high. If you take 5migs, for the first time, wait a full two hours before taking more; and, any time you take more, remember, you won’t even feel it, not for a bit.
Of course, for most people, if you over-stone yourself, just lying down until it passes is sufficient. (Please tell me you didn’t try MJ for the first time when you had any adult responsibilities for the rest of the day! :-) )
Note: if marijuana is legal where you live, it’s actually quite nice. If foreign relations were handled around a hookah bar serving fine flower and hash, instead of an alcohol bar, the world would be a far better place. Still, remember: with THC, more is not better. If you experiment, you’ll figure out how high you want to be, and you won’t want to go over that, and you want to be careful not to overshoot it.
(A tip of my hat to the marijuana legalization crew of yesteryear, who pointed out that “stronger pot doesn’t mean you get more high; stronger pot means you smoke less to get as high as you want to.” People don’t (usually…) smoke pot like they’re draining a six pack.)
Um. This is kinda good news, and, I’m afraid I’m far too stoned to think of other good news, other than, the sun came up, your beloved is still beloved by you, there are still kittens and rainbows and puppies and sex still brings pleasure and joy and millions of people had an opportunity to do something mean or nasty, and decided not to.
Baud
France has stepped up to be a shining example of a nation in our dark days.
WaterGirl
@eclare: here’s the bridge sign.
Jay
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/mar/24/oscar-winning-palestinian-director-attacked-by-israeli-settlers-and-arrested
The Guardian has the updated story.
Marc
By the way, did anyone notice towards the end that the guy from Maine suggested joining “your local PSL”. That one had me confused, I believe this may be the Party for Socialism and Liberation. That’s a new one for me, anyone else heard of them?
zhena gogolia
Well, so the non-Jewish people here are okay with it, so I guess it’s okay. //
WaterGirl
@zhena gogolia: Do you think that sign is calling Jewish people nazis? I see it as saying the country / government is behaving like the nazis.
NotMax
@Baud
How long before MAGA excoriates them as “pediphiles?”
//
zhena gogolia
@WaterGirl: I see the sign as calling Jewish people Nazis. As have several commenters here.
WaterGirl
@MagdaInBlack: So those are like peanut butter cups? But instead of milk chocolate with peanut butter inside, it’s dark chocolate with almond butter?
I have never tried almond butter.
Baud
@WaterGirl:
It’s a manipulation of the Star of David. I know it’s on the Israeli flag but the Star itself represents Judaism.
WaterGirl
@eclare: oh, that’s funny if that’s what he meant!
Salty Sam
When the shoe fits…
ETA- “disappearing” journalists/documentarians is a very NAZI look.
Marc
@eclare: BTW, Awaji island is known for it’s sweet onions, all of the restaurants on the island put onion in everything, including ice cream: oishi (not!).
MagdaInBlack
@WaterGirl: Yup, as you describe. I highly recommend =-)
Baud
@Salty Sam:
Jewish ≠ Israeli
WaterGirl
@Jay: Thank you. Added the link to the story at The Guardian, which contains much more detail. Very disturbing.
WTFGhost
@NotMax: Hm. I wouldn’t hold my breath, because I might turn blue, and someone will think I’m a giant smurf and try to kill me while singing “la la lalalala la la lalala” in a *very* angry voice.
But I’d bet money it could come to home applications, just because we’re getting so much better at building things.
How much, over how long a term? Well… don’t hold your breath for my answers :-) because I’m not really sure, myself.
@Gloria DryGarden: Ooooh – you do good news well!
@brendancalling: I’ll call something out. When I had a colonoscopy, I was worried about the prep. The prep was relatively gentle. It’s no longer a gallon of the immaturely mis-named “GoLytely”
@bbleh: Damn, and now I want an Italian hoagie. (Cheese steaks are good, but, the Italian hoagie is the meal that screams “home” to me.)
@Josie: While driving to Ohio, we passed a sign that the driver told us we’d see, and we still saw “Scot Run” as “Scrotum” for an instant. The human brain is weird.
@WaterGirl: Heh. I don’t think it’s too harsh. But it does hit like a punch to the gut, in some ways.
Martin
@Baud: Yeah, the French are looking better every day. They won me over when the firefighters would strike, set themselves on fire, and then go fight the cops. That’s the kind of energy we need. And a few thousand Anne Hildalgos.
Geminid
Syria news site Levant24 had sime good stories yesterday. One showed a line of semi-trucks rolling down a highway, with a caption explainnig that Saudi Arabia,l had sent 42 truck loads,of flour to support Syria’s bakeries. Thirteen years of civil war left the nation’s economy in tatters, and an estimated 60 to 90% of Syrians need outside aid to meet their basic needs.
Armenia,sent a 40 ton aid shipment. The significant part here was that it came across Armenia’s border with Turkiye. That has been closed since the second round of Armenia’s war with Azerbaijan broke out in 2021. Armenia and Azerbaijan now have a draft peace agreement and are working out the specifics.
Royal Jordanian Airlines flew its first airliner to Aleppo in 13 years.
And this was kind of funny: Israeli forces made an incursion into the town of Kodna in southern Quneitra province. The soldiers left behind gift packages on the residents’ porches, the idea being the local Druze need support from their good neighbor to west. Once the Israelis left, the townspeople promptly tossed the packages into the street and livestreamed themselves burning them.
Birdie
@zhena gogolia: oh noes. Why does this remind me of “being called a racist is worse than racism”?
WaterGirl
@Baud: Interesting. I saw it as the flag of Israel. I thought maybe I was wrong, but I just googled, and the flag of israel appears to be just the white flag and the Star of David.
So I saw / see it as a statement about the country / government, but I can see how it could also be seen as a statement of Judaism.
I think our current government is behaving in similar ways, but I don’t think we’re all nazis.
It’s complicated. I think art should make you think, and fair or not, that image is making a statement that’s worth thinking about.
Salty Sam
No, some people here, Jewish or not, are horrified at the actions of the State of Israel, and calling it out.
And none of this is “OK”.
JPL
@zhena gogolia: The video bothered me on two levels. Workers at the DMV stand for hours because they are understaffed. Years if not decades ago, I went with a son to change an address at Fulton cty. It took maybe a hour or so. I returned 9 months later and the clerk recognized me and I said wow how is that possible and she said most people are not nice and you and your son were the exception. I was shocked because I didn’t think it was unusual.
that section bothered me because it doesn’t matter who was working behind the counter They could have been green
WaterGirl
@WTFGhost:
It’s shocking, as I said up top. Which I suppose was the point.
Martin
@Baud: Yeah, well, the Israeli government has been hiding behind that shield for a while now, no? If they cannot accept criticism without contorting it into an accusation of anti-semitism, they’re ones poisoning the well.
I will again note that nobody is accusing people screaming about Russian aggression of being against people of Russian ancestry. People can choose to make the distinction or not, especially when the intent is perfectly clear as in this case. If you choose to not make the distinction, I don’t see how that’s everyone else’s problem.
Salty Sam
I know that. I never conflated the two, I specifically criticized the State of Israel.
Baud
@WaterGirl:
Could be intentionally ambiguous, but there’s clearly no actual flag in the mural.
Baud
@Salty Sam:
Where did you do that in comment 72? The block quote that you responded to refers to Jewish people, not Israel.
WaterGirl
@JPL: Which video are you referring to?
zhena gogolia
It’s an antisemitic image on a front-page BJ post.
It’s been diminishing returns around here for a while, so I guess no tragedy if I can’t stomach it any more.
Lyrebird
@WaterGirl: Hi WG!
Yeah FWIW I do read it that way, but after reading what happened to the playwright, I felt I could understand why you posted the image.
There have been people over the last several decades who have made so many unfair criticisms and called Jews Nazis over stuff that did not rise to that level that I have a hard time knowing what to say.
I have signed a few petitions from Jewish orgs demanding that Mr. Khalil be freed and returned to his family and his graduate program at least. I wish for a court to hold Trump and Netany. accountable for the additional deaths they were fine with just to advance their own political fortunes.
WTFGhost
@schrodingers_cat: But just having lived through an attempt at genocide can’t insulate you from claims of genocide, when you are (to all appearances) engaging in genocide.
See, this is a point I try to make. Nancy Pelosi should not do anything about that picture, but condemn it. But internally, she might be acting like – Meg Ryan? – doing the fake orgasm. Pelosi can’t afford to be tagged with “she called Israel Nazis!” but, who cares if a front pager at a top 10k blog posts the picture, and says “is it too much?”
Obviously, you should only try to be the person who “goes there” if you’re ready for the hate that might come from going there.
@Baud: That’s a hell of a point – if you’re going to insult the nation, you can change the flag, to make it clear. Every American Jew who sees just the star being Nazified isn’t necessarily going to think “Oh, but what Israel is doing to the Palestinians…”. (Which modifies my answer to the cat, assume said cat is alive. No offense – unless you’re doing the “the decaying atom releases a small amount of cream,” so the cat is both hungry, and fed, at the same time.)
Marc
Repeat post (perhaps in moderation):
The guy from Maine mentioned “joining your local PSL”. Is that the Party for Socialism and Liberation? I’ve never heard of them, has anyone else?
Baud
@Martin:
I don’t care what the state of Israel can accept. I care about how American Jews should have to tolerate. That mural is at best ambiguous about the group it’s referring to. I don’t question the good faith of people who interpreted it as referring to Israel and now Jews. But the mural not self evidently not antisemitic.
JPL
@WaterGirl: The Maine one where it sounds like he is doing a good job, but disses the lady at the DMV. It was judgmental.
Martin
@Baud: Does the white field not make that clear? The white field is specifically a product of the effort to create an Israeli state as it was first proposed:
I have always assumed that a Star of David on a white field refers to the state. I’ve never seen any exception to this (and I grew up in NYC where there are plenty of Star of Davids).
Gin & Tonic
Good things? I skied (skiied?) Bad things? Taking a red-eye home.
WTFGhost
@zhena gogolia: You have a point, and I’m sorry if my thinking it was okay was hurtful.
As per Baud, I agree – there must be a way to make it clear that a nation, not a people, are being shown as being terrible. I apologize. I then ask you to understand, I needed to hear something to break through my blindness on the issue. I’ll try to do better.
Salty Sam
I said it in #82.
This is a stupid argument. I’m out.
Baud
@Martin:
No, it doesn’t make it clear. At most it allows for a double meaning. I don’t know who the artist is or the intent, but double meaning is something racists do all the time.
WaterGirl
@Lyrebird:
I presented it as an image that is quite shocking.
@zhena gogolia:
Not at all intended as anti-semitic. Since it offends you, I have replaced the image with a link to the image.
YY_Sima Qian
@Baud: Absolutely not, but the Israeli government intently & consistently conflating Israel & Jews also has consequences. As I’ve said before. The Israeli far right & their rich & powerful Jewish supporters in the West, are playing to every Anti-Semitic stereotype & CT out there, & it is far more damaging than the Gentile supporters doing the same.
Marc
I’m trying to diagnose something here, as I can’t post this message or it’s going into moderation. The guy from Maine mentioned P.S.L., is that the P-a-r-t-y for S-o-c-i-a-l-i-s-m and L-i-b-e-r-a-t-io-n (psl.org)? I’ve never heard of them, has anyone else?
Watergirl: OK, that worked, which is the bad word?
Baud
@YY_Sima Qian:
No consequences for American Jews that I will accept as legitimate. if there are consequences for Israel, that’s not my concern.
schrodingers_cat
@zhena gogolia: Yep. Bigotry is A-OK if it is done using leftist talking points on Balloon Juice. This isn’t the only example BTW
There was whole scale bigotry against people of Indian origin because some companies misuse H1-B visas earlier this year. It went on for days. I was at the receiving end of many bigoted attacks. All because I tried to jump in and correct some broad brush generalizations. I was called Trumpian among other things and also accused of appropriating the black American experience.
schrodingers_cat
@Baud: Yes thanks. The rise of antisemitism on the left in the US is troubling.
cmorenc
Will the sheer doofosity of the Trump Administration in the security loop break through to broader electorate consciousness? Often, it’s one or two bad slip ups that durably sets a negative narrative that sticks and gives collateral traction to other negative memes.
Jay
67 in total, mostly women and children today.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2025/3/25/live-israeli-attacks-kill-65-in-gaza-including-journalists-children
A Ghost to Most
Find a way, or make a way. It’s only getting harder from here.
WaterGirl
@JPL: I watched that video this morning, and with all the horrible things that happened, I had completely forgotten the reference to the DMV.
Louis Diamond
So this is where I can say NO. Bad as some can be, no Jews are Nazis and not all Jews or Israelis support government or Settler actions. Not right
WaterGirl
@Marc: None of those is a bad word on our BJ list, so I don’t really know. Sorry!
Baud
Good news for Heart fans.
Marc
@zhena gogolia: I respect what you’re saying, but I’ve been struggling with this for my entire life. Is there any acceptable way to criticize the actions of the government of the State of Israel (and by extension, the people who elected them) without someone deciding it’s Anti-Semitic?
Jay
@Marc:
No.
WaterGirl
@cmorenc: We can only hope!
YY_Sima Qian
@Baud: No one here said anything about accepting them, but the causes & effects can also be analyzed objectively.
BTW, the consequences affect Israeli Jews, too. The State of Israel (just like any human endeavor) will not last forever, & it will not have the support of the [actually Anti-Semitic in their hearts] Evangelicals forever, either.
David Collier-Brown
@Shalimar: CNN said “… second was the United States, which received 228,000 barrels per day” … from Venezuela.
Going to tariff the US, you say?
different-church-lady
It may not be exactly how Rod Serling wrote it up, but it sure feels like the monsters have arrived on Maple Street.
scav
Can this possibly be the same god-damed crowd that universally went after Dems for being too nice, not aggressive enough and not using fighting words? I’m getting whiplash. It’s so hard knowing when pinkies rather than elbows must be raised.
Geminid
I have never been comfortable with the way people so easily equate Israel’s treatment of Palestinians to the Nazi’ extermination of many millions of people including Jews.
There are so many other examples of organized mass murder in the last century, including the US’s firebombing of Japanese cities in WWII, when we burnt scores of thousands of civilians to death on many a night. The British alone killed more Dresden residents in one night than Israel has killed in 18 months of war in Gaza.
Ed. Then there was were the hundreds of thoudands of Chinese civilians the Japanese slaughtered during the Second World War and the years preceding.
More recently in neighboring Syria, Bashir Assad’s forces killed at least 500,000 people including Palestinians during the last decade. Many of the pictures circulating early in the Gaza war that purported to show Israeli violence against Gazans were identified as pictures of Assad’s crimes.
So when people glide over these other atrocities and latch onto Nazi Germany’s crimes against the Jews, I detect an underlying, perhaps unconscious message: those people must not have learned their lesson.
David Collier-Brown
@YY_Sima Qian: I feel for the Israeli and Palestinian people. Their so-called governments? Not so much
Baud
@YY_Sima Qian:
I don’t know what that means. I certainly don’t accept antisemitism as an acceptable effect of Israel’s actions, anymore than I would accept any other form of bigotry as an appropriate response to something.
WaterGirl
@David Collier-Brown: I laughed, then I cried. They are so laughably stupid, yet incredibly dangerous.
Everything is so complicated these days.
WaterGirl
@scav: Thanks for describing the big picture so clearly. I am not always as good at taking a step back.
Gloria DryGarden
@MagdaInBlack: oh, yes! how delicious!
YY_Sima Qian
@Marc: The current far right government (& if we are honest, previous, less far right, ones, too) of Israel will certainly scream every time, & there are rich & powerful reactionary Jews who will try to be Bibi’s enforcers on the public discourse wrt Israel in the West. & they are absolutely not shy about targeting their Jewish critics, either.
Jay
@Jay:
ETA, if you are a Reich Wing ‘Mercan, you can toss out Soro’s Bucks, throw Nazi salutes and toss out “rootless cosmopolitan” with abandon, and without consequence.
Of course, none of those are attacks on Israel, just all people of the Jewish faith.
Gloria DryGarden
@Geminid: thank you for th3 numeric comparisons. That has meaning
different-church-lady
@scav: It’s very simple scav: no matter what you say, you’re wrong.
Louis Diamond
@WaterGirl: Thank you for removing the anti-jewish image.
Baud
@YY_Sima Qian:
I think that’s correct. The question is whether that becomes an excuse not to hear feedback from people who are not part of that group.
different-church-lady
@Geminid: I’m not sure “scoreboard” is the right attitude to take here.
David Collier-Brown
@Marc: Maybe attack Mr Netanyahu by name?
schrodingers_cat
@Geminid: Thanks for putting what I was feeling in words.
different-church-lady
Tens of thousands of people are dying, and we’re fighting over a picture.
WaterGirl
I wish everything wasn’t so complicated at a time when there is so much at stake. Since it’s March madness, I’ll say that I feel like the basketball is teetering on the brim of the basket and it can go either way, and whichever way it goes it determines who wins and who loses.
It’s hard to live like this, but we don’t have a choice. Then I think about Ukraine, and I’m sure Ukranians don’t want to live literally under siege. I keep looking to them with wonder at how they manage keep going when they have to be exhausted.
Since our government just eliminated the group that was focused on children who have been kidnapped / stolen, I have been thinking a lot about those children, and about the parents and siblings of those children.
Baud
@different-church-lady:
We’re fighting over the soul of BJ.
WTFGhost
@WaterGirl:
Um. If I have a hard time talking, you can really hurt my feelings by starting… to … talk… slowly…. I could cry.
If you want to make me cry a second time, say you weren’t intending to hurt me, which means, you didn’t really think about hurting me as a possibility. It’s like, “haven’t you ever heard of a stutter? Didn’t you even think of that?”
Well, obviously, I’m drawing an analogy here, and, I think this comment stepped in it a bit. You didn’t acknowledge that it was hurtful, merely that one person was offended.
Full apologies and respect – until hearing real people, I thought the image was good, myself.
zhena gogolia
@Geminid: Thank you.
Jay
@David Collier-Brown:
Nope. To attack Bibi by name, you have to use an “action”. Bibi does not act alone, so the Israeli Government = All Jewish People and people of the Faith. There is an entire multi-billion dollar industry built around this.
Somebody should ask the ADL if the image is anti-Semitic//
am
I wrote something longer but I deleted it.
I personally hope you don’t post image like this again. There are Israeli war crimes against the Palestinian people, and they don’t need any particular hurtful imagery – including to many Jewish Americans and many Israelis that still want peace – to convince anyone.
Respectfully, very little in recent history matches up to the evil of industrialized and militarized collection and extermination of a people that happened in the Holocaust.
different-church-lady
@Baud: Which apparently can be mortally wounded over a picture.
zhena gogolia
@different-church-lady: That’s not what geminid was doing.
LeftCoastYankee
Dropping that picture in without any context and further comment is not a great call.
Yes it’s similar colors to the Israeli flag, but it is not, it is the Star of David. It simultaneously allows so-called critics of Israel to resort to lazy antisemitic imagery thus casting outraged responses to antisemitism as defense of Israel’s actions.
The country of Israel has been an apartheid state for decades. And antisemitism has been an evil with a longer deeper history of sorrow.
I think the message that hate begets hate, violence births violence, and no one is immune, is something Israel should hear every day. I’m not sure that image captures that clearly.
My $.02
different-church-lady
@Jay: Well, you know, Nazi salutes are merely kind of “awkward” nowadays…
schrodingers_cat
@WaterGirl: Thanks for taking down the image.
Baud
@different-church-lady:
Are you saying there’s no possible offensive image worth fighting over, or that this one just doesn’t rise to that level?
zhena gogolia
@different-church-lady: For God’s sake, if you think a swastika on a Star of David is just “a picture,” you are really misguided.
YY_Sima Qian
@David Collier-Brown: Yet, the actions of their governments inevitably have consequences to the people.
different-church-lady
@Baud: I’m saying we’re avoiding the hard stuff by focusing on whether the picture is “permissible” or not.
WaterGirl
@Louis Diamond: You are welcome.
I did not, and do not, see it as anti-jewish. But I believe that what matters most is how the affected group feels about something.
You (the generic you) may think the c-word is an acceptable thing to call a woman, but if the woman finds it offensive, then you just can’t say it. You have to respect how they see it.
If you (generic male) are just being friendly and just treating a female colleague as one of the guys when you are telling offensive jokes, what matters most is how that female colleague feels about it. You have to respect that.
Same thing here.
Baud
@different-church-lady: It’s unfortunate that it was posted and I’m happy it’s taken down, but how to deal with the Israel/Palestine situation without resorting to antisemitism (or anti-Muslim bigotry) is among the hard stuff IMHO.
Gin & Tonic
@WaterGirl: It’s the Humanitarian Research Lab at Yale (part of their School of Medicine.)
Jay
@zhena gogolia:
The swastika was not on the “Star of David”, it was on the Star of David portion of the Flag of Israel.
The Star of David is a stand alone symbol.
When it’s on the flag of Israel, it is not.
Baud
I’ve given up waiting for some tipping point, but Signalgate does appear to have some more buzz around it than other Trump atrocities. I wonder what zanny thing Trump will do to create a distraction.
Ohio Mom
@Barney: As someone with RA, albeit a very mild case, what good news! Even better, the research isn’t being done in the U.S. so it won’t be shut down by DOGE.
NotMax
FYI.
How to delete your 23andMe data.
chemiclord
@zhena gogolia: How does that saying go? If you sit at a table with 12 Nazis, then there are 13 Nazis at the table?
If the people of Israel don’t like the association, they can stop what they are doing any damn time.
Baud
WaterGirl
@am: If I had thought it would be hurtful, I wouldn’t have shared it. Hopefully I have a bit more perspective now.
am
Thank you for taking down the image. Always remember that conservative religious extremists in Israel assassinated a pro-peace PM. Israelis are as captured by their authoritarian religious right as America is.
Leaving that aside, has Yuval Abraham posted updates? I have no faith in the current US government to pressure Israel, and Netanyahu is a criminal and a monster.
The focus should be on Hamdan Ballal, the criminal religious extremists that attacked him, immediately reversing his detention, and his safe return.
Jackie
Moved from prior dead thread.
If anyone should be ousted, it should be Hegseth, as well as Waltz.
But knowing FFOTUS, it’s all Jeffrey Goldberg of the Atlantic’s fault, and he’ll be demanding Goldberg’s termination.
Baud
@Jackie:
Hegseth is already attacking the reporter.
Scout211
@Baud: The White House is leaking to reporters that the fall guy will be Waltz. This time.
Watches the coverage?! Ladies and germs, introducing presidential decisions by television coverage!
Do the right thing. . . if coverage demands it!
different-church-lady
@Jackie:
WaterGirl
@Gin & Tonic: I couldn’t recall the name, but knowing that it had been shut down, or funding removed, was quite disturbing. I meant no disrespect by not including those details.
Jay
@Baud:
It really isn’t.
The issue is that one cannot criticize the actions of a certain State/ethnicity*, with out certain posters broadening that criticism to the entire group, as a means of deflecting from the actions of the State/Org group.
So, instead of commenting on how a Oscar Winning documentarian was attacked and brutally beaten by armed and uniformed illegal “Settler Groups”, on a illegal attack on a legal Palestinian village in the West Bank, ignored and encouraged by Israeli police standing by on site, then dragged out of an ambulance with severe injuries, and disappeared by unidentified Israeli Security Forces, along with others,
We are talking about some spray paint vandalism.
*Palestinian/ Islamic/Arabic
Baud
@Scout211:
Shame on Politico for writing the story that way. Really downplays the incompetence and unseriousness of this administration.
Parfigliano
@schrodingers_cat: Then certain Jews should stop acting like nazi
WaterGirl
@Jackie: I wish you weren’t right.
MagdaInBlack
@Baud: Thank you. I think that speech might be worth a post all of its own.
Baud
@Jay:
People here explained their reasons for finding the image offensive, and I agree that the image at best was ambiguous about whether it was directed at Jews or Israel. If you just want to dismiss them because you find the image 100% clearly about Israel, or you just don’t care about other people’s reactions, that’s your adult choice.
Jackie
@Baud: No surprise. It’ll be interesting to see if FFOTUS continues to support Hegseth and Waltz… I imagine the few sane people he listens to are running their fingers under their necks re supporting Hegseth and/or Waltz.
Geminid
@different-church-lady: These figures are not meant to convey some sort of “scoreboard.” My point is that to me, the common equation of Israel’s treatment of Palestinians to that of the Nazis of the Jews and others ascribes to Israelis a unique kind of evil we typically associate only with Nazi Germany.
It’s a quality we Americans would rather not admit for our own part even though we’ve done as bad or worse to other peoples. This may or may not be anti-Semitic, but in my opinion it’s sure as hell racist.
Scout211
@NotMax:
Here’s Attorney General Bonta’s official statement.
And his instructions :
Jackie
@different-church-lady: Well, yes.
Baud
@Parfigliano:
Calling Jews Nazis is always unacceptable, just like calling whites Nazis is unacceptable.
different-church-lady
@Geminid: Nothing personal here, but Trump ain’t been responsible for nearly as many deaths as Hitler, and I still have no problem saying he’s doing straight-up Nazi shit.
Glidwrith
@WaterGirl: As I recall social—m runs into one of the spam filters for male organ enhancement medication? Cial-s?
WaterGirl
@Jackie:
I have never heard that phrase, what does it mean? Google says it can mean about 7 different things. :-)
Ohio Mom
@schrodingers_cat: Yes, not distinguishing between Israel and Jews in general, not to put too fine a point on it, is antisemetic.
My current feeling is, Israel has a right to exist, so does North Korea. I’m not holding either place in any esteem.
Palestinians aren’t exemplary either.
They’ve done lots of horrible things over the years. That’s not to say they don’t deserve their own nation state, of course they do.
Most days I think Israelites and Palestinians deserve each other.
WaterGirl
@Glidwrith: That was a long time ago. I don’t believe that is part of the SPAM filter these days. But I confess that I haven’t tested it.
WaterGirl
@Baud: Do you think it’s wrong to call the torch-carrying white nationalists nazis?
Jay
@Baud:
I’m not part of an array of organized groups paid billions of dollars to foster over reaction.
I was a fan/supporter of Israel, not a blind fan, but a fan, until 1996. Qana. Funny how as a UN Peacekeeper having your HQ/Base shelled by the IDF in which over 100 refugees, mostly old men, women and children were murdered, along with 4 Fijian peacekeepers while every call out to stop the shelling of a position that was clearly marked and had been there for almost a decade, was met with laughter by the IDF.
73 stitches and 6 hours in surgery changed my mind a bit.
Ohio Mom
@Martin: painting all Jews with the brush of Israel’s actions isn’t a good look either
Baud
@Jay:
I don’t care if your part of an organized group or not. I see why people found that image offensive, and I’m glad it’s been taken down.
NotMax
@Glidwrith
At one time yes, but that hasn’t been the case for a passel of years.
YY_Sima Qian
@Baud: I try not to draw the parallel in my own discourse, because, merits of any argument aside, going there tends to short circuit any productive conversation. I am pushing back on the notion that anyone drawing such parallel is necessarily trafficking in Anti-Semitism, because the actions of the Israeli government over the past few years have made the parallels unavoidable. The persecuted turned persecutor is such a common condition of humanity.
A few years ago, I would have wholehearted agreed w/ you, but the scale of Israeli war crimes & crimes against humanity in Gaza & the WB (where there is a compliant Palestinian Authority, & the Palestinians there had not participated in the 10/7/23 pogroms), & the extraordinary lengths to which the far right Israeli government & its supporters in the West are willing to go to silence & punish their critics (including Jewish ones of prominence), I am now less absolutist (wrt interpreting every sign for possible Anti-Semitism, not on Anti-Semitism itself).
The 2nd part of your comment is also important. So, I do agree it is unnecessary & ill-advised to post the image on a front page post at BJ, as many BJers find it problematic. When Jewish commenters here assert that certain content is problematic, the community should listen, because the my baseline assumption is that BJers are acting in good faith. I think the iconography at the center is more problematic than the words around it.
I would also like people to be more consistent in their standards. Every time the subject of the Pro-Palestinian protests comes up, some commenters default to the pro-Hamas, Anti-Semitic elements among the protestors, & the protestors’ general narcissism, implying illegitimacy & bad faith. Yes, there were pro-Hamas & Anti-Semitic elements, I do not believe that described the vast majority of those protesting. Yes, the college undergrad protestors were often driven by narcissism as opposed to a deep commitment (to the point of willing to make sacrifices) to the Gazans’ welfare. They are college undergrads, after all, narcissism is part of the youthful condition
Edit: Glad WG took it down.
YY_Sima Qian
@chemiclord: That is the typical (& IMHO called for) response to any Russian supporter of Putin protesting being associated w/ Nazis, even though the Nazis slaughtered a lot of Russians & other peoples of the USSR (civilians & POWs) in WW II.
Baud
@YY_Sima Qian:
I agree there are edge cases. Some things may offend only a tiny number of people. This one seemed 50/50 to me. I also agree that it was the use of the Star of David with a white background but without a clear flag that made this image have two possible meanings. But I don’t think BJ would accept posting an ambiguously racist image on the front page, so it also shouldn’t post ambiguously antisemitic images either.
Jay
@Baud:
Funny thing is. we are still talking about an image, and not an action.
Witold Pilecki, a member of the Free Polish Army, infiltrated Auschwitz, sent photos and reports back, and escaped.
His reports were suppressed by the Allies, too “inflammatory”.
Peke Daddy
@Shalimar: Wonderful. Trump does even more to make oil uncompetitive at even moderate, even cheaper prices, and make electric transportation even more competitive.
different-church-lady
You want squee? WE GOT SQUEE!!!
Jay
@Baud:
The is a whole paid industry, (and not Soro’s bucks) in the US to defend every action of Israel, defame opponents and cry anti-Semitism.
$58 million to just Reps and Senators alone.
It’s a $117 billion dollar industry.
YY_Sima Qian
@Geminid: Nazi Germany was not a unique “evil” in human history. In fact, IMHO calling Nazi Germany & any government/state “evil” is avoiding to come to terms w/ the potential for malevolence in every human being & every human society, instead accepting it as part of the human condition & endeavor to contain & overcome it.
Plenty of genocides before & since the Holocaust. What was unique to the Holocaust was the thorough & industrialized process, but that IMO is downstream of the high degree of industrialization & state capacity of Nazi Germany, not uniquely “evil” intentions. If we are talking about scale, the European settlers in N. American had been pretty thorough against the Native Americans, & the Manchu Qing Empire was quite thorough w/ the Dzungars.
YY_Sima Qian
@Jay: Well, knowing that experience certainly adds color to your POV.
Marc
I seem to remember something called a “pandemic” where the leader of one country decided it was all a joke and killed something around 1M excess people as a result. I guess he’s got more work to do.
Another Scott
There’s a little more about the graffiti in Dortmund here (in the text on the right). It looks like it went up in late 2023 or very early 2024, just after the 2023 European Mayors Summit Against Antisemitism (6 page .pdf). It was the 3rd annual summit (previously held in Athens and Frankfurt).
(The Gaza war started on October 7, 2023.)
FWIW.
Best wishes,
Scott.
Jay
@YY_Sima Qian:
These were people we talked with every day, shared intel, observations, did joint patrols along the fence with. For years.
Both our roles were to prevent Hezbollah attacks and incursions.
And they laughed on radio, swore at us and ignored our calls when they were killing us.
It had to go to the UNSC to get them to stop shelling us and the refugees, 4 1/2 hours.
Then when the ambulances took the wounded and dead out, they shelled the convoy.
Kinda changes your perspective a little
When it was all “over” the IDF said it was an “error”. It was not an “error”.
Ohio Mom
@zhena gogolia: Thank you. After wading through threads here that I should have closed about things like, “Was it/wasn’t it racist to call Hakeem Jeffries for going on a long scheduled book tour?” And endless discussions on what is permissible/ not permissible to say about trans issues, etc, etc., it’s a little jarring to see people out and out endorsing an anti-Semitic image.
I’m chalking this up to people not knowing better. Whoever painted that image purposefully conflated the state of Israel with the Jewish people at large.
Do I need to say that a good number of Jews both in Israel and in the Diaspora hate what Israel is doing, that just as Americans you do not want to be conflated with MAGAs?
Quiltingfool
@zhena gogolia: I did not like that image. At all.
I’m not Jewish, but it was gut-wrenching to me.
When I worked for an attorney in Kansas City, we had two clients who had been in the camps. How did I know this? I saw the numbers tattooed on their arms. One man had to have been a child when he was in the camps.
That was over 40 years ago. You don’t forget something like that.
Jackie
@WaterGirl:
Figuratively slitting one’s throat.
Ohio Mom
@Martin: It’s in the quote, the Israeli flag is made up of symbols that predate the flag and still retain their meanings on their own, without referring back to the flag.
Again, the person painting this mural is conflating Israel and the Jewish people and if I need to be this direct:
I absolutely do not appreciate my online community here at Balloon Juice (the only place I regularly comment except for the local autism moms’ FB page) calling me a Nazi. Which you are doing by endorsing this image.
I realize for some of you, it was ignorance but now that you’ve been educated, cut it out.
Geminid
Here’s a good story, from Rudaw English:
The celebration was organized by several groups including the pro-Kurdish People’s Equality and Democracy Party (DEM Party). Attendees included many of Istanbul’s estimated 2 to 3 million Kurdish residents as well as Kurds from other parts of Turkey and some from Iraq, Syria and Iran.
At one point a recorded Newroz message from PKK leader Abdullah Ocalan was displayed on a large screen to the cheering audience. In past years that would been the cue for thousands of riot police to storm the square and disperse the crowd.
This year the cops stayed busy in other parts of the city, fighting demonstrators protesting the arrest of Istanbul Mayor Ekrem Imamoglu. Apparently the political settlement the government has been negotiating with Ocalan and DEM Party leaders is still on track despite Imamoglu’s arrest on corruption charges.
The Rudaw English news site is based in Erbil, Iraq. That’s the capital of the Kurdish Regional Government which controls the four northern provinces of Iraq. Their semi-autonomous status is guarenteed under Iraq’s constitution.
Ohio Mom
I was trying to be fair and read all the comments but I’ve had enough for tonight.
Though I do want to emphasize this before l sign off: the largest group in the U.S. supporting the right-wing Israeli government are Evanglical Christians. And as everyone here knows, they are an influential group.
They believe Jesus can only return to earth once all the Jews in the world are gathered in Israel (one snag in this plan is all of us Jews that have no intention of ever moving there). Then god can destroy all of us Jews in one fell swoop and bring on the messianic era.
It’s not a very friendly gesture, looking forward to god killing us but that is the group the ultra-Orthodox snd right-wing Jews have thrown their lot in with because to all of them, making sure Israel survives is the highest value.
Citizen Alan
@WaterGirl: While I can see both sides of the argument as to the propriety of the mural, I am most struck by the fact that we are even this worked up about the question. I cannot recall the last time anyone on the Right has condemned any form of speech uttered by anyone else on the Right as an attempt to insult or disparage anyone on the Right. They would dismiss our arguments about the mural as “woke political correctness” and laugh at us for even caring whether the mural met the definition of antisemitic as opposed to merely anti-Israel so long as it pissed off the people that hated.
A year ago, I would have said that represented a strength for our side. Nowadays, I’m honestly no longer so sure, which is yet another thing I hate the GOP for: making me doubt the intrinsic value of fair-minded discussion about potentially offensive ideas.
Citizen Alan
@Marc: Geez, we’re not back to auto blocking any mention of Socialism because it’s got c-i-a-l-i-s in the middle, are we?
Geminid
@different-church-lady: Go ahead and call Trump a Nazi if you you want. I explained why I was uncomfortable with the equation of Israel’s actions with those of Nazi Germany. I wasn’t trying tell anybody what to do, just giving my perspective for people to take or leave.
Then you jumped in to reduce that to some “scoreboard” argument, which I thought missed the point. So I pushed back accordingly and now you act like I’m telling you what not do. But I’m glad it’s nothing personal and I hope you keep hydrating.
Jay
@Citizen Alan:
Yes, it’s v-i-a-g-r-a.
Citizen Alan
@Baud: I like this kind of talk, but he still scares me. I fear that in 2028, we will end up embracing the “middle-aged White Guy who became a Billionaire from inherited wealth.” Like billionaires are okay if they’re “good billionaires.” I find it difficult to imagine President JB Pritzker (Net worth = $3.8b) aggressively pushing for a wealth tax, a higher top marginal rate, a lifting of the Payroll Tax cap, or any of the other things that the next Dem President MUST do if there’s to be any remote chance of salvaging this country post-Trump. And that’s before we get into the fact that the Progressive wing of the country will probably hate him more than they did Hillary and claim he “bought the primary” or some nonsense.
Citizen Alan
We’re still only 2 months into his term, and the damage he’s inflicted has been incalculable. And there is no question in my mind that he and the garbage humans with whom he’s surrounded himself would not balk at mass murder of democratic constituencies.
Gloria DryGarden
@Citizen Alan: some people count the Covid deaths as part of his count. That brings the number up a fair bit. Soon we’ll see what else..
Geminid
@YY_Sima Qian: I did not say Nazi Germany was uniquely evil, and I’m not sure you meant to say I did. I said it was typically associated with unique evil which is what I find disturbing about the equation of Israel with Nazi Germany.
To take this point further, this equation is often intended to delegitimize Israel as a nation-state, and to justify it’s destruction or dismantling.
Plenty of people believe that Israel never had a right to exist, or has since forfeited that right. They will assert that the region will never know peace until this Israel is somehow removed. It is their right to believe that but personally, I think this belief is what has caused the human suffering and material loss the region has endured since 1947.
wonkie
@Salty Sam: NOt a good look, but a look that is definitely there.
Jay
@Geminid:
Nazi Germany was “unique” in it’s industrial extermination of “the other”. (Yeah, they didn’t get the factories running until 1942 and instead had to run on more basic methods).
Israel is unique, in it’s past bureaucratic elimination of the other, now turned physical.
Upon the conquest of the Gaza Strip, 1967, Moshe Dayan took journalists on a tour, and said, “look at this place, what a garden we will make out of it”.
Geminid
@Citizen Alan: I don’t see why his personal wealth would keep Jay Pritzger from pushing for a higher marginal tax rate or for lifting the cap on social security. Regarding a wealth tax, I’ve seen credible arguments that this would require a constitutional amendment so I discount one for practical reasons. But I would happily settle for the first two reforms plus a higher inheritance and capital gains taxes.
I think that if Jay Pritzker wins the nomination, it won’t be because he’s worth $3.8 billion. It will be because he’ll have been a successful governor of the 5th largest US state, and he impresses primary voters as a strong candidate.
As for the “progressive wing,” of the country, the pragmatic progressives are by far the more numerous and I would expect them to get behind Pritzker. There are some who won’t be satisfied, but those guys– and they are mostly guys– cannot be satisfied and Democrats just have to write them off. Not withstanding all the noise they make, there just aren’t that many of these soreheads.
Now, I can see how Pritzker might have couple potential weaknesses, but I accept as a fact that there will not be a perfect candidate in the field. I think there will by 3 or 4 good prospects. though, and that’s plenty.
WTFGhost
@Citizen Alan: Well, some of this is walking and chewing gum.
We can hold a mini-discussion, “that was hurtful to some folks,” while also discussing other issues.
I hope we can deal with the frustrations of people who feel that the hurt has derailed the main conversation.
But, you know, this was “try to do some good news,” thread, and as soon as people are hurting, it kind of spoils that. Our strength is, we don’t need to destroy people who break some unwritten code.
People can mess up. They can apologize, sincerely, and move on. Lessons can be learned without shame or making people feel wrong or stupid.
People can disagree; they can decide not to let the disagreement become permanent friction, while still discussing in good faith, and trying hard to see the other person’s point of view, when it doesn’t seem to make sense, and yet, the person is often sensible.
Meh. I can’t think straight, nor gaily forward, but trying to understand each other, discussing in good faith, and trying to minimize gratuitous hurt (while trying not to shy away from every painful encounter), that is a strength. It’s like trade, in economics – we can’t think of everything on our own, so, we listen, we talk, we think, semi-collectively, and independently.
zhena gogolia
@Ohio Mom: Thank yoiu.
Liminal Owl
@WTFGhost: Thank you (and @WaterGirl) for that graciousness. (And many thanks to Baud, Schrodinger’s Cat, et alii for your comments.). I’m late to a dead thread but will add anyway: Right, because Germans under the Nazi regime were known for demonstrating the genocide in huge numbers, right?
Jewish Israelis, Jewish Americans, and Jews elsewhere are actively protesting the criminal actions of the Israeli government. (Not to give credit to the government for “allowing” protests—I assume it’s just recognizing political realities—nor, especially, for its horrendous.). But to Jews, and clearly to others of both good and ill will, the shocking image calls all Jews Nazis. Which is hurtful and, yes, explicitly anti-Semitic.
chemiclord
On one hand, I get why Jewish people look at that image, and have a visceral reaction to it. And sure, I also understand why they aren’t assuming good faith of the artist. The concept of separating Jews and Israel when it comes to criticism and ire for the latter is… well… it’s not exactly one that bears out terribly much in real life. Because, yeah, criticism of Israel is frequently used as a wedge of attack against Jews as a whole.
But where I don’t agree is this idea that we’re not affording Jews the grace we afford other minorities. Purely as a hypothetical, let’s say a country established for any minority group started attacking their neighbors, herding them into ever smaller enclaves, and slowly committing genocide. Would we be trying to argue precisely what genocide means? Would we be blunting our spears criticizing them? I don’t think we would, because a monstrous act is a monstrous act regardless of who is doing it.
Israel could stop this at any time. They are not helpless victims merely defending themselves. They crossed that line willfully and malevolently. So no, this image being argued about is completely justified, and frankly, Jews need to adopt what we tell other groups when they protest completely justified criticism of a group they identify with:
“If you don’t think it’s describing you, then it’s not describing you, and if you think it does, then maybe the problem is with you.”
Geminid
@chemiclord: You make some good points here, but I’ll say this about two of them. First it’s not just Jewish people who find that mural objectionable; I for one did and I am not Jewish.
Second, Hamas can also stop that war anytime, and they are the ones who started it with a savage attack intended to provoke a savage response.
chemiclord
@Geminid: If Hamas were to completely roll over and surrender… Israel would scoff, call it a lie, and continue to steamroll Gaza and the West Bank. Oct. 7th is the excuse Bibi and the Knesset are using to do this, not the reason. The reason is that they have always felt Palestine is theirs in its entirety, and now they think the time is ripe to actually manifest that dream.
Now is that an excuse for Hamas? Nope. They have been very full throated on their mission goals. “From the river to the sea” is as much a call for extermination as it is for freedom (and I’ve had it out with Rep. Rashida Talib on that very topic).
But right now, at this moment, Hamas has precious little power to do much of anything. They are as crippled as they are ever going to be, and Bibi knows damn well this path he’s on cannot lead to the movement’s destruction… short of a total annihilation of the Palestinian people, I suppose, which he is absolutely fine with.
I’ve heard that entire region described as having twenty-five actors, and all of them are acting in bad faith. I will happily decry every single one of them whenever they poke their heads up and try to justify those bad faith actions. For example, I am shedding absolutely zero tears for the Houthi militants even as I simultaneously abhor how the U.S. strikes them down from on high and brags about it in Signal messaging rooms.
Right now, the agent doing the most damage is Israel. That could very easily change by this time next year, because if there is one thing that it seems like all these bad faith agents abhor, its one of the other agents sucking up all the oxygen and headlines.
Geminid
@chemiclord: I think we might get to see what happens if Hamas “rolls over” and surrenders because that may happen this week. They’re under heavy pressure from Egypt and other Arab nations to take the ceasefire deal that’s on the table before Israel launches a multi-division ground invasion.
No one has published the deal’s specific details– they never do– but it sounds like a surrender on conditions; those being the return of the hostages in exchange for being evacuated to a third country.
As for October 7 being an excuse for Netanyahu to devastate Gaza, from what I’ve read Netanyahu wanted to maintain the status quo and even facilitated payments to Hamas by Qatar of $30 million a month to that end. This was part of a strategy to keep the Palestinian Authority weak.
I wonder if you have seen the widely available videos of Gaza before the war. They show what that status quo was before Hamas blew it up. It wasn’t good enough for Hamas, but I don’t think many Gaza residents thought it was worth trading it for the status quo Hamas brought them.
Ed. Anti-Palestinian people often replay video of Gazans celebrating the October 7 attack in order to demonstrate that Gazans are a bloodthirsty bunch. But when I watch the videos I notice how they show only so many hundreds of men celebrating.
This was out 2.2 milliom people. I suspect the many of the rest were in the mosques praying, or calling their friends and relatives and asking for help geting out.