Just two days ago, this article was published at The Atlantic.
The Pathetic, Cowardly Collapse of Big Law
Trump’s actions are an attempt to tilt the scales of justice by using the raw power of government coercion—and they’re working.
by Paul Rosenzweig
Few Americans will have much sympathy for lawyers whose annual income reaches seven figures. But big law firms—especially those now under attack by the Trump administration—do crucial work, representing nonprofits and individual clients who face major legal consequences, both civil and criminal, for resisting Donald Trump’s assault on the rule of law. Without lawyers to represent them, those opposing Trump’s policies will, in effect, be legally disarmed, allowing his authoritarian impulses to run rampant.
Trump began his attack on Big Law with a presidential memorandum directed against the law firm of Covington & Burling ordering that all federal contracts with the firm be reviewed, presumably for termination, and that any of the firm’s lawyers and employees who aided Special Counsel Jack Smith in his investigations be reviewed for “their roles and responsibilities, if any, in the weaponization of the judicial process,” on pain of their security clearances.
Trump followed this with an executive order against the law firm of Perkins Coie (one of whose former partners, Marc Elias, represented Hillary Clinton during the 2016 campaign) that is far more sweeping. It orders a review to determine whether the security clearance of all lawyers and employees of the firm ought to be stripped, and a review—presumably for possible termination—of federal contracts not only with Perkins Coie itself but also with any client even merely represented by the firm.
This had an immediate, and presumably intentional, effect: Perkins Coie began bleeding clients, threatening its continued viability. The EO also seeks to limit federal hiring of former Perkins personnel, their access to federal property, and their “engaging” with government personnel.
If someone has a gift link, I would love to share it here. But for now, you can fill in the blanks.
Today, important news from Joyce Vance!
Joyce Vance at Civil Discourse!
Unless you’ve practiced in Big Law, they’re probably just names: Perkins Coie, Covington and Burling,
Paul Weiss. They are the law firms Donald Trump has attacked, using the power of the presidency in a venal form of personal revenge, by way of Executive Orders (EOs) that are so harsh clients have left firms and some are rumored to be in dire straits. Yesterday it was Wilmer, Hale, targeted explicitly because they hired two lawyers—the EO called it “welcomed” them—who had worked on the Mueller Investigation, which concluded Trump had engaged in behavior that could be prosecuted, but declined to do so because of a DOJ policy prohibition of indicting a sitting president.
This is a big deal. It looked like the big law firms were going to fold, but some are standing strong.
Some of the firms have or are in the process of negotiating a way back into Trump’s good graces.
Wilmer, Hale and Perkins, Cole are standing strong.
But Wilmer, Hale, shortly after the EO against it became public put out this statement, “Our firm has a long-standing tradition of representing a wide range of clients, including in matters against administrations of both parties,” they said. As for Mueller, they applauded his “long, distinguished career in public service, from his time as a Marine Corps officer in Vietnam to his leadership of the FBI in the aftermath of the September 11th terrorist attacks.” No backing down.
Early Friday morning, Jenner and Block sued a comprehensive list of defendants including the United States, agencies implementing the EO against it, and individual officials including Cabinet secretaries, explaining in their complaint that: “The Order threatens not only Jenner, but also its clients and the legal system itself. Our Constitution, top to bottom, forbids attempts by the government to punish citizens and lawyers based on the clients they represent, the positions they advocate, the opinions they voice, and the people with whom they associate.”
My podcast co-host Jill Wine-Banks, a former Jenner and Block partner, told me this morning, “This is who Jenner and Block is. Leaders in the true meaning of the legal profession. Proud to have been a partner. All law firms should join to fight the attempt to end the rule of law by destroying law firms and courts.”
The courts are the branch of government that is trying to preserve the balance and prevent Trump from usurping power that does not belong in the hands of the presidency. Trump has been attacking the courts. Attacking the lawyers is part of that—courts can’t act on their own, they act only when lawyers bring cases. Jenner and Block, asking for a TRO against enforcement of the EO against them, made this point, “These orders send a clear message to the legal profession: Cease certain representations adverse to the government and renounce the Administration’s critics—or suffer the consequences.” They call the administration’s actions an attempt to keep lawyers from challenging the administration’s illegal actions in court.
Wilmer Hale filed a lawsuit moments later. They are represented by conservative icon and former George W. Bush solicitor general Paul Clement.
The two firms join Perkins, Coie, which filed a lawsuit against Trump in mid-March despite reports that they had some difficulty finding a firm willing to take them on as a client, in the moment of shock following Trump’s first order targeting a law firm.
Reason for hope?
Trump understands his vulnerability: The rule of law can still hold him accountable. That’s why he’s attacking it on all fronts. That’s why it’s so important that the lawyers are pushing back.
Expect more from the law firms. The increasing swiftness of the responses show that they now anticipate and understand that they are under attack from a previously unthinkable place, the White House. The Wilmer Hale firm filed their lawsuit less than a full day after Trump took action against them. These firms are prepared to fight it out in the one place where Trump can be forced to listen: The courts.
So, there is good news amidst the bad. The lawyers are going on the attack against Trump’s efforts to damage the legal system. More will follow. And public protests continue to grow as we approach the April 5 national day of protest.
Open thread.
WV Blondie
Many, many years ago I had a summer job at Wilmer Cutler & Pickering (as it was known then), first working in the typing pool, with occasional stints as a fill-in when some attorney’s secretary took a vacation, then as a semi- paralegal on a big antitrust case (back in the days when paralegal wasn’t a well-defined profession with its own educational path).
What I remember most is that the attorneys I had any dealings with were actually pretty pleasant. And they had a woman partner – a real rarity at the time.
So if one can have a soft spot for a law firm, I’m thrilled that WilmerHale is standing strong!
RevRick
Good to hear they aren’t all caving in to the Orange bully.
RaflW
The Roberts Court is in so many ways a rolling, roiling disaster. But I think the CJ as well as Amy Coney Barrett and maybe, possibly Boof Kavanaugh understand that if Trump succeeds in wrecking BigLaw and, basically, the core of the legal system, the Supreme Court loses power.
John Roberts, a GWB era understander of power, I think will not accept this. But who the fuck can really know? That’s one of the ways the system has already crumbled. We can’t even expect rational, rule-of-law decisions from the high court.
(Yeah, I know. The Court has done heinous things before Roberts. But this period seems more destabilized than from past serious errors like Plessy.)
Steve LaBonne
My general sense- and I’m not usually optimistic!- is that the bullshit blitzkrieg is getting bogged down and resistance is beginning to stiffen. They would not be worrying about things like Stefanik’s seat if they were confident that they were in full control.
WaterGirl
Since it’s just the
threeFIVE of us at the moment, can I ask a question?It seems like the pissed off bad news posts get a lot more action than posts where good news is shared. Is bad news what more people want on BJ these days?
God knows there are plenty of awful things I can write about at any given moment.
bbleh
Not that it necessarily matters, but this is entirely rational. Fail to stand up now and pretty much your entire foundation, the reason for your existence (except perhaps as mere interlocutors before the throne) starts to crumble.
There appear also to be some judges who have come to the same conclusion.
The Supremes (several of them) are still an open question though. My guess on them is, they’ll contort themselves into pretzels trying to AVOID addressing the main issues and instead defer and deflect and pretend that minor details are really what’s important.
I will say one thing for the Orange Administration: it’s kind of an “acid test” for an awful lot of society. Ain’t gonna be a lot of doubt about who is who, and what they are, after this is over
@WaterGirl: I wouldn’t judge interest on the basis of feedback. Bad news posts get people excited (often bad/angry excited as opposed to good excited), and excited people tend to respond. It can be cathartic: “yeah, me too, dammit!!!!11!!” Good news posts can be calming and relaxing, and I think people are just less likely to start typing “oooh, feels nice, thank you” than “arf arf arf arf arf ARF!!!!”
I think the good news posts are just as important — even essential. All bad-news would probably lead to burnout, despair, heart attacks, and just all-around badness. I love the flower shots! But I don’t really have anything to say about them.
rusty
This is good, and there are other firms that are likely to soon be in the firing line for this administration. I’ve been thinking about the administrations active attempts to evade judicial review. Students are grabbed of the streets in New England and deliberately and quickly shuttled to distant prisons to avoid judicial action and to constantly change venue for court filings, if any can be timely filed under such a system. We now have our own American gulag with prisoners never charged, constantly moved, and kept isolated from familial and legal contact. American gulag, this I never expected.
Planetjanet
@WaterGirl: Not I. I relish the good news.
WaterGirl
@bbleh: The Supreme Court will do whatever it deems best for their self-interest.
Luckily for us, that will surely mean curtailing the madman’s power wherever possible.
Time will tell.
Steve LaBonne
@WaterGirl: It’s just human nature, I think. Bad news triggers our limbic systems so we’re more likely to respond. But the good part of that is that bad news may be more effective in motivating people to fight back. But hope is essential too so please don’t stint on the good news!
Ned F
I’m glad you posted this today, it’s been on my mind all week and I cannot understand why big law firms are caving to threats from the *president. I read this morning he’s threatening the firm where Mueller last worked just because. These guys are Lawyers, I’m sure they’re used to this shit, and usually will not roll over and play dead.
It’s another constutional matter, shut down all the law firms who have the knowledge and ability to threaten the 2025 manifesto.
WaterGirl
@rusty:
This brings to mind the famous quote:
Seems like maybe, just maybe, more people are starting to catch on.
Steve LaBonne
@bbleh: “Who goes Nazi?” isn’t theoretical this time. And some of us have long memories.
WaterGirl
@Steve LaBonne: Interesting. I think good news brings hope, and it seems to me that people are a lot more apt to fight back if they have not given up.
It’s a balancing act, I guess.
Personally speaking, I need the good news so I don’t (metaphorically) slit my wrists.
Central Planning
Trump understands his vulnerability? I thought he was a feeble old man, sun downing, glitching, and busy playing golf.
Also too: dottard
Emily B.
Confession: I’m a Big Law nerd (although not a lawyer), after having worked a couple of decades at a legal trade publication. It’s interesting to me that the DC firms (Covington, Wilmer Hale) are taking a harder line than the NYC firms (Paul Wuss, Skadden). A big part of their practice has always involved standing up to the government. If they cave, they lose credibility. The DNA of the NYC firms is more corporate/financial. Paul Wuss, while a pro bono stalwart, has represented ExxonMobil for a long time—so is used to compartmentalizing. Jenner has strong litigation roots in Chicago.
Savvy of Wilmer Hale to hire Paul Clement, a star litigator who is VERY right wing.
Steve LaBonne
@WaterGirl: I think it is. We need the whole picture, the things that need to be fought now and the things that give us grounds for hope.
scav
@WaterGirl: Nah, a) I think we’re all over the map as to what pushes us to sound off, and also b) that it’s a mistake to confuse mere comments with interest or need for the topic. To some degree, it’s hard to comment on designated “good news” threads because any slightly different take on what is deemed good is taken as bad manners (tending to lead to silence or smiley icons) . But just about any take on bad news is open for yelling about in the other threads.
Geminid
@WaterGirl: Personally, I think you should do both types of posts. Maybe alternate.
WaterGirl
@Central Planning: “Trump” is doing a lot of work there.
Trump = Trump’s people.
Trump is not coming up with all of this shit by himself. But some of the people around him can certainly see that he’s vulnerable.
I think yesterday’s decision to screw over one of his biggest allies shows weakness. I mean, he didn’t even wait to see if Tuesday elections will bring him bad news or good news.
PANIC move, I think: “Stop the bleeding! Stop the bleeding!”
The Red Pen
Dewey, Cheatham, and Howe: “We’ll fight for you! Promise! Please ignore the time when we wouldn’t even fight for ourselves.”
ITMFA.
Old Man Shadow
@WaterGirl: I want the truth.
Good or bad.
What I don’t want is unfounded optimism that creates a false sense of reality.
There’s a lot more people on team cruelty, a lot more people on team misogyny, a lot more people on team white supremacy, and a lot more people on team injustice, and even more people on team “I don’t give a fuck about that shit anyways” than we’d like to admit. And a lot of internet chatter seemed optimistic that we were winning, but really those shitheads seem to have been on a winning streak lately.
And don’t get me started on all of the “Surely, this time the system will hold Trump accountable” nonsense.
Sigh… I want hope. But I want realistic hope. I want good news, but only if it’s the truth. We’re very much on defense right now. I’m glad the line is holding some places.
But I don’t really have much hope that anyone gives a major fuck about whether or not those 200 immigrants America sent to torture work camp prison get justice or just disappear.
WaterGirl
@Emily B.:
I assume Paul Wuss is a bastardization (well deserved) of Paul Weiss?
Jackie
We’ll soon know if Venezuela is at war with us as FFOTUS insists…
Lobo
@bbleh: To this why would you now trust a law firm that caved. Would lawyer/client privilege still be respected, etc? The only reason would be to forward a gift for a favor, other than that you would not be able to trust them beyond that.
WaterGirl
@scav: I’m fine with disagreement, as long as people aren’t being assholes about it. Most days, at least. :-)
schrodingers_cat
Reign of Error 2.0 is trying to redefine what it means to be American. Each and everyone of us can do our part by refusing follow the Republican lead. The future is not written. We are the ones writing it
We can hold the newsmedia’s feet to the fire. Especially the elite media like the NYT, PBS etc. We are their audience. Rs had their own mediaverse.
ArchTeryx
It’s easy to just completely dismiss good news in favor of cynicism. After all, since they’re ignoring pretty much any court ruling against them, that some Big Law firms are not going Nazi, what does it mean in the end?
Right now, I’ll take any good news I can get. Because the tornado is fast approaching the New York State Department of Health, and it’s already started claiming workers and careers on its outer edge. Just the first few sprinkles of a shitstorm. Without at least a little sign of resistance to these monsters, I wouldn’t be able to go on.
TL;DR: Thank you, WaterGirl, for soldiering on during the early part of this war. WWII didn’t go so well for us at the beginning, either. But we still won it.
Koenigin
As a former lawyer I am glad to read this. Small glimmers of hope are appreciated.
scav
@Old Man Shadow: That makes me think. There’s a difference between “respite” threads and “(mandatory) good news” threads. I’m personally more interested in respite threads where we talk about / argue about other things. Spaces to take back and maintain our lives.
Elizabelle
@Emily B.: How long do you think Paul Weiss’s chairman, Brad Karp, will last?
Rather hope the other partners are about to jettison him.
He is the face of a cowardly, cowardly decision which should have gone the other way.
scav
@WaterGirl: Yeah, but that’s you and not the hall monitors!
Central Planning
@WaterGirl: I agree with what you wrote, and I think when normies hear the latter, his people do something that shows signs of (chaotic evil) intelligence, they disregard everything else we say.
suzanne
@WaterGirl: I vote for both types of posts. I don’t get to read every thread, but it’s nice to have choices!
I am currently at the airport waiting to board my flight home. It has been an insanely busy week of leading about three days of meetings and mockup sessions. But very successful! Only lost my voice one time! I am exhausted and ready to be home.
Parfigliano
@The Red Pen: Paul Weiss client list should fast approach zero.
eclare
Thank you for this WaterGirl.
WaterGirl
@scav:
That puts me in mind of a useful concept I learned in some seminar somewhere.
Draw a circle and add lines to cut it into pie shaped pies. Or, draw a square with lines to cut it into 9 square shaped pieces. I personally can’t say whether I prefer to pie to cake, I love both!
Anyway, the concept is that you label the various parts of your life. I suppose the traditional labels might be work, family, friends, primary relationship, spiritual, exercise, health, politics, whatever your things are.
If any of those things take up an oversized amount of space, you are likely to be off balance and devastated when there is a crisis in anyone of them.
Clearly Trump 2.0 is taking up an oversized amount of space – it has to because lives are literally at stake. But yeah, having a normal side of BJ in addition to the crisis side of BJ is probably good for all of us, because it gives us one more square of normalcy to help balance the shit show.
NeenerNeener
Here’s the “archive.ph” link for the first article:
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2025/03/big-law-trump-executive-order/682173/
WaterGirl
@scav: I guess I’m saying that my threads can be a place for that, even if all threads aren’t.
On the other hand, do not bring politics and current events into OTR or Medium Cool, or I will cut you! :-)
JCJ
@Jackie: CNN claims these were all gang members? I thought one of the people rounded up was a guy with a Real Madrid tattoo that was misinterpreted to be a gang tattoo, at least according to a report I saw. Now, I certainly prefer Atletico Madrid over Real and I still prefer Barcelona or Valencia over those teams, but I would never deport someone over a Real Madrid tattoo. Manchester United would be another story – I would be fine with deportation of one of their fans.
Typing this makes me think of the number one Liverpool fan of balloon-juice. Amir, You’ll Never Walk Alone
eclare
@WaterGirl:
I don’t think we want more bad news, there just is more bad news.
WaterGirl
@Parfigliano:
From your lips to dog’s ears!
jonas
Since at least 3 or 4 of these clowns are nakedly partisan hacks rather than independent jurists, that unfortunately means that they see their self-interest as doing whatever Trump/MAGA want, regardless of what it does to the judiciary.
Gin & Tonic
@WaterGirl: I’m all for respite and good news, but asking us to cheer for lawyers is a real heavy lift, IMO.
CindyH
@WaterGirl: I’m only a lurker but I rather see the bad news here than elsewhere. I love the good news too but maybe that doesn’t require people to vent. I know I’m not the only one who isn’t sleeping and feeling so helpless but still need to know the bad parts.
WaterGirl
@NeenerNeener: Thanks for that. It still hid a bunch of the article for me, but I did add a blockquote up top of what I was able to see.
suzanne
I agree with you on this.
I have to say that I also am deeply distrustful of the attitude that some people (not you) seem to have adopted about criticizing publications, journalists, or pundits who they find insufficiently liberal. I can’t help but notice that the people who complain most about this are the ones who were the most off-base about our real situation over the last year. We have to know what we are genuinely facing. We have to know the enemy.
But genuine good news, genuine opportunity for positivity, is absolutely appreciated and necessary.
eclare
@Old Man Shadow:
I agree with what you wrote 1000%. What happens to those men?
WaterGirl
@JCJ: tears for Amir, for the hundredth time.
Trivia Man
@bbleh: “rage bait” is definitely a short cut to engagement. There are people who make a living posting obviously stupid videos just harvest clucks from OMG!!! THAT IS SO STUPID!!!
WaterGirl
@jonas: I think it’s likely that for them, personal power trumps all else. If it affects their power, the power of the Supreme Court, I think they’ll check Trump out the window.
jonas
@Elizabelle: Yeah, folding like Superman on laundry day generally isn’t a good look for a Big Law firm.
WaterGirl
@Gin & Tonic:
I laughed so hard i scared the cat! I will be infinitely grateful for any and all lawyers who hold the line.
Speaking of which, has anyone heard from Judge Luttig since the election? He was quite outspoken before. I wonder what’s going on there. I think if Trump went after him, a lot of conservative eyes would be opened.
tam1MI
@WaterGirl: I personally like the good news posts and think you should keep doing them. It’s too bad that the comment system on BJ doesn’t allow Likes and emojis are frowned on, because I think the lesser amount of comments on good news posts may be because the only thing people can think of as a response to them are 👍.
jonas
@JCJ: This whole shitshow is just W’s Guantanamo debacle all over again. Remember when they were parading all those shackled and hooded “high-value Al Qaeda Leaders” through barbed wire enclosures, showing how effective our intelligence was? And it turned out most of them were just randos with the wrong name, or who had pissed off the some guy who fingered them to gullible American CIA operatives or something?
There was no accountability then and probably won’t be for Rubio or ICE or any of the individuals responsible for disappearing people into El Salvador this time, either. Infuriating.
Asparagus Aspersions
@WaterGirl: I stopped reading comments to respond. I need a bit of hope, so I very much appreciate these sorts of posts.
Trivia Man
@Parfigliano: except fir those ATTRACTED by being with the insiders. Fast track to preferential treatment!
Emily B.
@WaterGirl: It is! I can’t resist.
frosty
@WaterGirl: I don’t need plenty of awful things every day. Consider the action the bad news posts get. Trolls, troll-adjacent comments, doomscrolling, and twice as many pushing back. It’s wearying to read.
Plus, when there’s too much bad news I lose track of what to complain about to my R reps!
eclare
Can we have a thread about the couple hundred men sent to a prison camp in El Salavador? I can’t believe this has left the news, but it has.
WaterGirl
@Emily B.: No one could blame you for that. It would be a shame if attorneys in his circle also think of him in that way.
Weiss / Wuss should be shunned. In my opinion. One of the tools we still have left to us.
Elizabelle
@WaterGirl: Funny you should ask. Judge Luttig just had an op ed in the FTF NY Times earlier this week. March 23.
Gift link: It’s Trump vs. the Courts, and It Won’t End Well for Trump
Whole thing is worth a read.
I agree with other jackals who think Trump’s lawlessness is a bridge too far for Roberts, Coney Barrett, and Kavanaugh. Maybe even Gorsuch. As usual, a pox on Thomas and Alito. Although maybe, uh, Thomas will surprise us.
Trump’s going after Judge Boasberg has put some spine in the federal judiciary.
RaflW
@WaterGirl: My not-that-well-informed take is, there’s more comments and more frisson in the pissed off bad news posts. Some of which is bickering, trolling or even nit picking.
The good news posts perhaps generate more thoughful but less grumpy energy? That could all be projection since I’m just exhausted by all the negativity in the country.
I feel like more people want to wallow, and g.d. I do not. I want to see the chinks in those terrible people’s (tinfoil) armor. We can win, but I think some folks prefer not to. The complaining is what they’re after.
WTFGhost
Me, I’d wanna hear the top tier law schools would find some way to assist, as well. Why get a top tier law school, if you’re going to be a slave to the powerful? Isn’t going to a top tier law school a way for you to empower yourself, far beyond other, dare we joke, “mortals”? Plus, let’s face it: if a Federalist Society membership, and a – what’s the term? Third Tier Toilet? – degree gets you in pig heaven, just repeating propaganda, why waste all that money on top tier?
Big, fat-pocketed law firms should be willing to reduce the cash flow of the senior partners to protect cash flow in the future, but, law schools should be speaking up for the state of the law. Heck, even at LGM, I saw someone quoting a Constitutional Lawyer (maybe “themselves,” for all I know) saying “we can’t teach people how to pursue a SCOTUS case any more! Nothing makes sense any more!”
And, again, if you make fat cash, pushing out lawyers, it seems like that’s a national crisis. AND a risk to the bottom line, so, guys, you have both moral/ethical, and greedy-as-eff reasons to care. Shouldn’t that be enough?
Elizabelle
@eclare: Silly jackal. We saw Kristi Noem posing in front of them just yesterday. With her (allegedly $60,000) Rolex, and breasts that may or may not have come to her naturally.
It’s the firehose of crap; hard for any particular story to stay prominent for too long.
Although: Judge Boasberg is challenging Trump on those actions. (Judge Michael Luttig addresses that in the NY Times op ed gift link I just posted.)
BeautifulPlumage
@WaterGirl: I agree with the “want news” crowd and appreciate all your posts.
On the latest EO, I have been thinking about this comment on Bluesky this morning:
“…Trump figured out that Executive Orders are basically ‘longer tweets that drive giant media attention’…”
WaterGirl
@Elizabelle: Thanks for that, can’t wait to read it.
Old Man Shadow
@eclare: I think most of them will disappear.
I don’t know if that means dying in that hell prison, languishing in that prison for the rest of their lives, or being shipped “home” and falling off the radar.
I just know at some point, the media will move on to something “new” and “entertaining” from the Trump regime and the only people who will still give a fuck are the family and the lawyers of those men.
I’d like to believe in some better fate. Some miracle court date that will see them set free with a cash settlement to go someplace safe and start a new life.
I just have the feeling that we’re seeing the Nameless, silent witnesses of humanity’s cruelty grow before our eyes.
Emily B.
@Elizabelle: Good question. I think Brad Karp’s tenure will depend on the fallout. If the firm loses some business, loses some big partners, and takes a hit on recruiting associates, there might be a drive to push him out. I imagine some partners are very unhappy about what happened. It doesn’t look good that Trump revised the so-called settlement after the firm thought it had struck a deal.
But I also suspect there are plenty of partners who are relieved that they can just keep on with their multi-million-dollar practices.
Old Man Shadow
@Elizabelle: She actually didn’t pose in front of them. She posed in front of El Salvadoran prisoners that the guards made remove their shirts to show their tattoos.
It was pure propaganda.
WaterGirl
@BeautifulPlumage:
Boy, isn’t that a sad truth.
scav
@RaflW: It’s also true that sometimes the good news posts are more full of jackals going after each other because we’re not all on the exact same page about the definition and meaning (and completeness) of “good” whereas the bad news posts can generate energy about going out and doing something. What’s in our minds at that exact moment in our lives probably determines which of the vibes we most pick up on. Full service blog.
A Ghost to Most
We’ll see who the cowards are when/if the season opens.
BeautifulPlumage
@WaterGirl: and giant media is running after them like a slobbering dog. Never mentioning in their sensational headlines that these are not enforceable, legal documents. I’m waiting for the EO that declares the sun illegal because it hurts eyes once.
Steve LaBonne
@Emily B.: “I have altered the terms of our agreement. Pray I do not alter them further.”
Jackie
@WaterGirl:
He’s been on MSNBC recently and wrote an editorial (I think in the NYT?) since Muskrat started destroying America with FFOTUS’ blessing. Luttig doesn’t like Muskrat or FFOTUS.
Beat by Elizabelle (once again ;) )
WTFGhost
@WaterGirl: Friend… why do you think Republicans do so well?
Yes, it’s easier to get people to comment when pissy, or angry, or downright furious. And good news… geez, if one activist gets returned, is that “good news” or just “part of the ongoing war?”
Now, that was my mansplaining, which was supposed to be a tiny bit harsh, “c’mon, we recognize the reality,” and I can go into troubleshooting mode, too… but, I guess we both know I’m saying “you don’t have to show me any appreciation for this :-).”
Do you want more engagement on the good news posts? I say that, because wow, I know the “I thought this was good, and had some great jokes (seriously, tough room!!), and it was something that should make folks happy!” and I never get that. I can barely remember to *bold* or italic, or anything like that.
If so – look, if I see a meme, that causes a smile to crack my face, TMJ, and all, that gets me far more likely to comment. And memes would make sense – you’re not trying to say “GREAT NEWS, TRUMP BEING FROGMARCHED OUT OF OFFICE!” but “hey, this is good news, akin to playful puppies, cute kitties, and
hot naked erotic scenesother nice things people might smile about.(In point of fact, I don’t “get” most hot naked erotic scenes any more, but I couldn’t think of a more lawful way to be ridiculously inappropriate.)
And – wow. What I just said makes me want to smack myself upside the head, because it’s what people told me at 5, and 6, and 7, “if you try to be like the cool kids, you’ll do fine!” which was, like, ridiculous, because I was already severely disabled, and years later, I’d be set in my ways.
So “wow, was that some condescending bullshit you might tell a person who is being bullied!” – yep, that’s just what it sounds like to me too. But me… I need some images to draw my eyes to text, or, because of my fatigue, I’ll decide to skip the reading.
I’m an extreme outlier in that sense, because reading is always hard, but I do think something that draws the eyes, and primes the spirit, would help draw more attention to the good news posts.
Elizabelle
@BeautifulPlumage: The corporate media is showing its whoredom. Daily.
Morons. They may be getting clicks, but they are losing their credibility. Giving it away. “Please sir, take some more.”
trollhattan
Thanks as always, Steveo.
He says that like it’s a bad thing.
WTFGhost
@eclare: I will throw out an idea, that I’m not saying is true of anyone, but, people might get a sense that it’s something a little true of *everyone*.
People are afraid to hope – good news feels too much like false hope.
I often say “this is a symptom of depression,” but I don’t want you to think of how it might mean you’re sick. What it means, is, you’re on the slippery slope to hoplessness – it gets easier and easier to discard hope. Screw whether you’re depressed – people who feel helpless don’t tend to make waves.
(This is why I’m furiously angry with those, having little-to-no knowledge of depression, called Prozac an opiate for the masses. Depressed people feel hopeless; people who stop feeling depressed feel hope again. DEPRESSION is the opiate.)
bbleh
@jonas: @WaterGirl: maybe getting a little deep in the weeds here, but I think it comes down to what the individual Justices feel is in “their self-interest.” For some I think to at least some degree it’s (oddly enough) the Constitutional order and the rule of law. For most I agree there is probably some institutional interest — whatever preserves and/or expands the Court’s prerogatives. But I think for at least a few, it’s a philosophical ideal closer to royalism or Dominionism — they’re doing What Must Be Done, whatever the cost.
All of which is to say, I wouldn’t trust that the Court necessarily will act in a way that preserves its own power.
@Lobo: concur, as a client, especially a prospective one, I wouldn’t necessarily trust them. But I can see the firm thinking “if we don’t knuckle, they’re gonna come after us and our clients right NOW, whatever the long-term cost.” That is, purely a short-term and reactive decision as opposed to a strategic one.
Heidi Mom
@WaterGirl: It seemed to me that Amir embodied civilization.
Elizabelle
The Guardian has run at least three or four stories this month quoting Judge Michael Luttig.
From a recent one:
Appreciate Luttig reminding that the USSC brought this upon themselves with that ridiculous decision. Bring the receipts.
And this one:
Conservative former federal judge says Trump has ‘declared war’ on US rule of law
J Michael Luttig said a constitutional crisis is brewing due to Trump’s defiance of a court order over deportations
Scout211
I very much appreciate the good news threads and the respite threads. But even those threads turn negative immediately. See TaMara’s post from last night.
However, I do understand why this is happening and fully understand and empathize with the anger, panic and negativity. I just try to avoid engaging in it and maybe other commenters are doing the same. It’s kind of just a sign of the times right now.
pajaro
@WTFGhost:
As it happens, there was a letter circulated by law deans a couple of days ago condemning the actions taken against the various law firms. 80 of the 200 or so deans in the country signed on. There were a number of state schools in states with Republican governors or legislatures who signed on. Notably absent from the signners were the deans of the Ivy League law schools (with Cornell excepted).
Jackie
Starting to see these headlines daily:
They should be named “Another MAGAt’s face eaten by leopards.”
I didn’t read: I’m pretty sure it’s the same ol’ same ol’ sad song…
Kelly
Muskrats think they can rewrite Social Security from legacy COBOL to something newer in a few months. I’m a retired COBOL guy. I started in the days of punch cards. Worked for big corps. Updated a lot of old systems including the Y2K problem. Seems a bit too hurried to succeed.
Link to Wired story: https://archive.is/bDh4a
Old Man Shadow
@trollhattan:
Sure, Steve… THIS time, the system will surely punish him… (rolls eyes makes jerk off motion.)
Marc
Then there is Neri Alvarado Borges. Maybe there was something else, maybe there wasn’t, but since “due process” is now gone (for all of us, BTW, since that right is conferred to “persons”, not just “citizens”), we will probably never know.
gvg
@Planetjanet: Especially good news that explains things.
WTFGhost
@pajaro: Thanks for letting me know – it’s not the thing I would have dug out!
George
@WaterGirl:
I think some people get addicted to bad news and that, on a perverse level, they revel in the doom. Somewhat tangentially, there are commenters who seem to enjoy blaming various demographics for all the ills facing the country. These one-trick ponies offer no real insight. It seems blaming various demographics gets them off in some way.
Not that my opinion amounts to a hill of beans in this crazy world, but I’ve been a long-time lurker and an infrequent commenter who used to visit this site multiple times per day, but I’ve cut that back to only once or twice daily because of the doom commenters and the commenters who enjoy trolling.
There are commenters who do offer realistic solutions that are at least worth considering. Those are the ones I enjoy reading.
Professor Bigfoot
@WaterGirl: I’m desperately late to this thread (how’d it get to 91 already?!!) but for me it’s often, “oh, I so agree with that,” and “you ain’t nevah lied” and “ain’t that some shit, y’all” but, well, without that “upvote”/”like” thing (and I’m not arguing for that!!), it felt like all I’d be doing is just clogging up the commentspace with “damn rights!” all the time.
Also… I’m often desperately late to the thread!! It’s like “whoah, what happened, I was commenting on that thread and NOW IT’S THREE POSTS DEEP?
eta– thank you, WG, for this space.
WaterGirl
@Emily B.:
I think it shows them to be fools. Lawyers are supposed to know how to make airtight deals, and they got taken. And then rolled over with the taking. A double rollover!
They should lose all their clients. Plus they have loser stink, and that will rub off on the clients.
WaterGirl
@WTFGhost:
I’m not asking for more engagement. I was asking whether less engagement means less interest. Or boring.
WaterGirl
@Heidi Mom: In all the best ways.
WaterGirl
@Jackie:
I expected YOU to lose your job, I wasn’t supposed to lose mine!
dc
@WaterGirl:
Absolutely not boring or less interesting. I think there is a parallel to contacting a business or your representatives, people call/contact when they have complaints, not when they’re happy with product/service/policy.
Jackie
@WaterGirl:
You’d think lawyers would be the last group to trust a convicted 34 times felon.
Kelly
@WaterGirl: Fewer comments is not a lack of interest. David Anderson’s posts are interesting but I rarely have anything to add. Same with Adam’s Ukraine posts.
WaterGirl
@George: I appreciate hearing your perspective.
cain
@Kelly:
It won’t succeed. It’s going to be a disaster. Plus you know that whole anti-DEI thing is going to be baked in. Non-white people are going to get fucked.
cain
@WaterGirl:
Not really. But you know some headlines get more attention than others because it allows for more pontification from the peanut gallery.
WaterGirl
@cain: @Kelly: You can have it fast, you can have it cheap, you can have it good.
Pick two.
But even two doesn’t work out so well when you’re talking about a writing software for a big-ass program.
Professor Bigfoot
@cain: But we can’t blame this on any particular demographic, you know.
Professor Bigfoot
@WaterGirl: When you’re working with a legacy system that has code and code dependencies going back to the stone age.
One of the things about working in software is that OFTEN, when you fix something over here, it blows the system up completely over there.
Baud
@Professor Bigfoot:
Everyone knows COBOL is a DEI programming language.
raven
My brother worked at Perkins, Coie right out of law school.
Professor Bigfoot
@Baud: Why you wanna make me snort-spit-guffaw like that?
Old School
Remove your truck nuts if you are heading to Idaho.
WaterGirl
@Professor Bigfoot: I think we can blame it on a lot of demographics. There had to have been a dozen things at play, where if we had changed any one of the 12, it would have been a close win instead of a close loss.
Some of those dozen were surely bigger than the rest. Like racism and misogyny.
My whole point on that subject is that all the time we spend blaming and arguing about who’s most at fault is time we don’t have available to focus on what we can do now.
WaterGirl
@Professor Bigfoot: Absolutely. I was thinking about a total re-write of the system.
Rule #1, never fuck around with a software program you don’t fully understand.
WaterGirl
@raven: Why do I not know you have a brother?
Quiltingfool
@suzanne: Missed you here! The other day I wondered why I hadn’t seen you, and I remembered you had a very busy work week.
There are many commenters I look for every day, and I love their input. I learn so much!
arrieve
@Emily B.:
I think I’ve mentioned that I worked at Paul Weiss (not as a lawyer) for many years. I don’t really keep in touch with many people there, so my two cents is worth only that. Brad Karp has not covered himself with glory here, to put it mildly, but he is an incredibly savvy guy. The firm had computer systems that could manage large litigations before this was a common thing and he brought in some huge cases because of this. It was always known as a litigation firm (and he is a litigator) but he built the firm’s corporate practice way up by getting the huge clients who used them for litigation to also use them for mergers and other corporate legal matters. The profits per partner are where they are largely because of him, I think. The partners aren’t a monolith. Some of them will be hesitant to rock the boat, because overall he has been an excellent chairman. But newer partners? Who knows?
Because I am a snarky bitch, I will also say that he was a participant in one of the legendary much gossiped-about episodes in the firm’s history, one of the first stories any new employee learned within a week of starting there.
NotMax
@Old School
Auf Wiedersehen, truck nutz.
:)
artem1s
@trollhattan:
He says it like he knows the GOP normies are going to fine with that ending for the reality TV show they are watching – The Apprentice: White House II the Big House!
RaflW
@Old School: The topless beach industry in Idaho must be reeling.
/S
But really, the prudery is stupid. But I suspect this is in part about the ‘artificial breasts’, ie: they’ll go after any drag performance where they deem a bikini or pasties or whatever as ‘insufficient.’
They don’t even have to have a good case, just the harassment of investigations and (later dropped) charges seems like at least part of the plan. Idaho (with the exception of a few places like Boise) is really 100% committed to anti-trans anything/everything.
Professor Bigfoot
@WaterGirl: I think “blame” is probably the wrong word… but I believe we need to recognize the role of “demographics” in American voting patterns and how those patterns roll out into the policies we all have to live under.
I always learned to go after the bigger problem first. Mind, I’m not saying I have answers for that problem– it’s kinda incomprehensible to me– but talking about the behaviors of any other demographic than the one who puts the most votes towards the suffering of the rest of us doesn’t help us solve the problem of that one demographic that gives almost 2/3s of their votes to the Birther in Chief.
We can’t address it unless we’re willing to face it squarely.
zhena gogolia
@WaterGirl: I want good news. I just work in the daytime.
Professor Bigfoot
@WaterGirl: But of course, when you scrap it and start over, you get to make a lot of the same mistakes the developers of the old version did– and likely a lot more.
I’ve LONG believed that once a piece of software gets big enough, NO HUMAN can fully understand it.
But boy, a human can sure fuck it up!
Planetjanet
@Professor Bigfoot: We are not going to be able to talk about racism and how to combat it without discussing demographics. And we really need those conversations. Maybe it would be helpful if mentions of demographics include objective facts. Simple assertions that “everybody knows XXXX…” are often just the perspective of the writer, and often unexamined.
suzanne
@Quiltingfool: You’re so kind, thank you.
This week was insane (over scheduled, flight delays, inevitable changes and curveballs), and very good, and I just spilled water on my pants and it looks like I pissed myself. And my plane is arriving late and I am going to have to sprint through O’Hare to make my connection!
oklahomo
@Professor Bigfoot: Misplace a period in COBOL and then have fun trying to figure it why the program went completely insane on you. Or overlay numeric data with character data.
Kelly
@Professor Bigfoot: One of the things that bugs me about the “OMG COBOL is ancient No one understands it” stories that crop up from time to time is if you know how to code picking up COBOL isn’t deciphering fragmentary Sumerian clay tablets. It’s more like an English speaker picking up enough German to get by. Any organization with a large COBOL code base can hire bright coders and train them enough to work independently in a year or so, grow their skills into lead programmer a few years after that.
Steve LaBonne
@Professor Bigfoot:
Oh, that's why they'll use AI to do the job.FSM help us.Harrison Wesley
@Old School: Are those all breasts or only human ones?
Steve LaBonne
@Kelly: But not in a few months.
ArchTeryx
@Professor Bigfoot: “No one user wrote me! I’m worth millions of their man-years!”
Kelly
@Steve LaBonne: Absolutely. Also understanding code is just the first step to understanding the system
Edited to Add: What people on my staff aren’t interchangeable”
French Onion Soup
@Kelly:
COBOL and even assembly coders do exist. So do solutions to fix this before we called it “AI”. It’s not all that complex and it’s not lacking for talent.
Now doing it properly is another matter.
ArchTeryx
@French Onion Soup: Doing it properly requires time, and the Muskrats’ sole missions to break as much shit as fast as possible, and try to leave a big enough mess behind nobody can fix it. They’re all Russian assets – or useful idiots. One or the other.
NaijaGal
@bbleh: Agree!
NaijaGal
@schrodingers_cat: Thank you!
Emily B.
@Kelly: This article about DOGE transitioning the Social Security system from COBOL makes my hair stand on end. I am not a programmer, but I have friends who used to code for big banks, and have gleaned from their experience that making any change in legacy code is a BFD. Lots of testing and signoffs required. Because if Citi or UBS or any big financial institution made this kind of big change in their system and the information for customer accounts got screwed up, there would be hell to pay, the regulators would be on them like a ton of bricks, people would get fired, etc.
Social Security? Evidently the stakes are not so high.
NaijaGal
@WaterGirl: In addition to the articles that Elizabelle shared, you can follow Judge Luttig on Bluesky:
https://bsky.app/profile/judgeluttig.bsky.social
lowtechcyclist
@WaterGirl:
I think it’s just that there’s a lot more to say about bad news. There’s only so many ways you can say “great news, glad to hear it, way to go!” and none of them start any sort of debate.
TEL
@George: Same here. I actively avoid the doomerism threads and certain commenters. “There won’t be anymore elections” “The supreme court will rubber stamp everything Trump wants” (when the SC has already checked him a couple of times, and is extremely unlikely to let go of their power) etc etc
Omnes Omnibus
@A Ghost to Most: It is often those who talk the biggest game who do fuck all.
lowtechcyclist
@WV Blondie:
Well hello! I was a paralegal at WC&P back in the late 70s and beginning of the 80s. We might’ve known each other back then!
Not a bad place to work while I was figuring out what I really wanted to do with myself, but I eventually managed that and moved on
ETA: Just to make life more interesting, one of my closest friends from high school was an associate at what was then Hale & Dorr for several years.
Steve LaBonne
@lowtechcyclist: This.
WaterGirl
@NaijaGal: Yeah, I used to (sort of) follow him and a couple dozen other people on twitter with open tabs in my browser. I haven’t put that together yet on bluesky, thanks for the leg up!
Elizabelle
@NaijaGal: Thank you for that suggestion. Followed him.
I like that he’s on bluesky. That in itself says something positive about Judge Luttig.
Bill Arnold
@Old Man Shadow:
Similar movies(?photos?) were admissible/used as evidence at the Nuremberg trials.
Bill Arnold
@Old School:
Are they seriously redefining the word “genitals”? Breasts are no more “genitals” than arms, ankles or in certain countries, faces+female.
Professor Bigfoot
@Kelly: Aye, indeed— it’s just a programming language, after all.
But the complexity inherent in these large (huge, enormous) legacy software systems remains.
Professor Bigfoot
@ArchTeryx: EGGGGZACTLY!
These systems are monstrously complex; and millions of human-hours spent modifying, updating, and revising, fully understanding how that system works is *difficult.* There are bound to be code dependencies, library dependencies, instances of kludge-ass code that accidentally works… <whew>
I keep waiting for Wintermute to show up. ;)
Gloria DryGarden
@Old School: le bakery sensual would go out if business…
Kelly
@Professor Bigfoot: Understanding what an existing system does is the hard part. Understanding what the system is supposed to do if developing a new system. It really helps when the IT staff have been around a while working with the user base that has also been around a while. Of course management has to realize people are not interchangeable and it’s worthwhile to run the place so people want to stick around.
Gloria DryGarden
I just followed judge luttig on blue sky. His posts all look interesting, and heartening. Lots of reading to do, to catch up. Something to do as the nice weather turns chilly again.
Professor Bigfoot
@Kelly: Funny how much comes down to “institutional knowledge,” isn’t it?
And I mean in just about everything.
Kosh III
@WaterGirl: “I think yesterday’s decision to screw over one of his biggest allies shows weakness. I mean, he didn’t even wait to see if Tuesday elections will bring him bad news or good news.”
I seem to have missed whatever this is–superbusy this week.
tam1MI
@Kosh III: He just withdrew Elise Stefanik’s nomination as Ambassador to the UN. She gave up her leadership position in the House on the understanding she would be given the job, and she can’t get it back because someone else is in the spot now.
Pennsylvanian
@WV Blondie: Agree on the disposition of attorneys. Actually a pleasant bunch overall. I interact with many over the phone in my work and they are the opposite of “Karens” in that they have self awareness and a keen sense of what could be called “proportional response”, generally.
My previous experience working with professors, helicopter parents, contractors, engineers over the years? Not so much.
WaterGirl
@Kosh III: He dumped Stefanik, withdrawing her nomination.
https://balloon-juice.com/2025/03/27/trump-may-withdraw-the-stefanik-nomination-for-fear-of-losing-the-nu-special-election/
WaterGirl
@Pennsylvanian:
Have you met Omnes and Steve in the WTF??? :-)
Kayla Rudbek
@pajaro: I should check and see which schools signed on: do you have a link?
BellyCat
This topic is WAAAAY bigger than the attention being given to it by the MSM.
Upholding the rule of law is the very last bulwark standing between democracy and autocracy. To rationalize reasons Paul “Wuss” capitulated to Trump is the sort of shit that paves the way.
Same for Columbia University’s capitulation. We lose higher education’s freedom of inquiry and the entire pipeline for innovation gets choked. Shocker that putting Big Money people on University Boards, instead of academics, would lead to such bullshit. //