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Impressively dumb. Congratulations.

Accountability, motherfuckers.

You’re just a puppy masquerading as an old coot.

There are consequences to being an arrogant, sullen prick.

You passed on an opportunity to be offended? What are you even doing here?

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Hot air and ill-informed banter

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Today in our ongoing national embarrassment


Speaking of republicans, is there a way for a political party to declare intellectual bankruptcy?

You are here: Home / Open Threads / Rampant Lawlessness, Part XXX (Open Thread)

Rampant Lawlessness, Part XXX (Open Thread)

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Rampant lawlessness.

Elon Musk has committed a blatant felony by offering money for votes in order to help Brad Schimel. This is a chainsaw attack on democracy and the rule of law. Musk should be brought to justice immediately. đŸ§”

[image or embed]

— Ben Wikler (@benwikler.bsky.social) March 28, 2025 at 10:51 AM

Wisconsin AG sues Musk over his million dollar bribes.

The suit acknowledged Musk pulled down his original post, but notes “neither Musk nor America PAC have announced that the plan to make two $1 million payments to Wisconsin electors who have voted in the Wisconsin Supreme Court election has been cancelled.”

State law bars offering or promising anything of value in exchange for someone voting.

The suit was originally assigned via random draw to Judge Susan Crawford, who’s running for the state Supreme Court. She recused, and the case was assigned to Dane County Judge David Conway, who has endorsed Crawford’s bid for the Supreme Court. The case was then moved to Columbia County Judge Andrew Voigt, who isn’t listed on either Crawford or conservative Brad Schimel’s endorsement pages as a supporter in the Supreme Court race.

According to DOJ’s filing with the 4th District, Voigt declined to hear the request ahead of Sunday’s event. In the appeal, Kaul argued action by the court was necessary to ensure confidence in the integrity of the election, particularly in light of the media attention on Musk’s offer.

“Without emergency relief from this Court, Respondents will be able to go forward with their illegal plan to pay voters for voting. Relief from this Court must come before Sunday,” the filing argued.

Musk’s America PAC posted on X that entrance to his town hall “will be limited to those who have signed the petition in opposition to activist judges.”

It’s not clear to me where things go from here and whether there’s time to stop this on Sunday.

Does anyone know?

Open thread.

Reader Interactions

113Comments

  1. 1.

    thruppence

    “…the right of the people to peaceably assemble and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.” Unless Trump takes it personally and wants to crack heads. Which he will want. Saturday could be very rough in some places.

  2. 2.

    MobiusKlein

    I’ve heard many times that the President’s pardon power is pretty much untouchable.  But what if the POTUS promises pardons for violations of other parts of the Constitution, Bill of Rights?  The use of Pardons to nullify other parts of the Constitution seems unconstitutional to me.

  4. 4.

    rekoob

    Ben Wikler and his team should be on it. As a non-lawyer, I can’t comment further. Protests/boycotts can only go so far in such situations, I believe. Not to say that more extreme measures are warranted, but to note that without Judicial intervention, Musk may well give his speech and possibly hand out his money.

  5. 5.

    H.E.Wolf

    We can’t know, and worrying about it will do absolutely nothing to affect the outcome.

    Here’s something where it’s definitely possible to affect the outcome: a small, concrete task that can help GOTV *and* interrupt the worry loop.

    Postcards To Voters has addresses available for a County Commissioner race in GA (April 29 election). The Democrat is Black and has served as a State Rep. The Republican is White and MAGA-ish.

    New writers, sign up here: [email protected]

    Established writers can use their preferred method to request addresses.

  6. 6.

    laura

    Basic law ‘splainer till an actual litigator shows up and weighs in: Wisconsin law likely spells out the elements of the crime of inducing a vote, bribing a voter or fraud upon the electorate or some type/s of harm, the elements of the crime to be proven at trial to sustain a conviction. Maybe the AG alleges a conspiracy as well, I don’t know TLDR the filings. This would be a state court matter, so beyond the reach of a presidential parden…but maybe an EO just because

    That said, you dont have to have a law degree to understand the basics of an outsider with a personal motivation to try and buy an election. Hell, he did just that in November.

  9. 9.

    WaterGirl

    Reminder, this is an open thread so talk about anything you want!

    I just stared with something that was on my mind.

  10. 10.

    lowtechcyclist

    @MobiusKlein:

    I’ve heard many times that the President’s pardon power is pretty much untouchable.

    But only with respect to Federal crimes.  This is state law. Presumably Musk could be arrested and hauled off to jail when he arrives in Wisconsin, since state law apparently “bars offering or promising anything of value in exchange for someone voting” and he’s already done that.

    C’mon, Gov. Evers, have the state cops waiting for him when he steps off his plane!

  12. 12.

    cmorenc

    Didn’t Musk pull a similar trick in Pa ahead of the Nov 24 election?

    Also, IIRC, some Red states tried to make it illegal ahead of the ‘24 election for anyone to even offer water to voters waiting in lengthy lines at polling places.

  15. 15.

    Ella in New Mexico

    He pulled his announcement, but he fully intends to go and do it anyway.

    Like I said elsewhere, wouldn’t it be cool if Wisconsin State Police Swat Team tracked his flight and then swooped in and arrested Elon ICE style when he was stepping off the private jet he flies in on

    @lowtechcyclist: beat me to it!! :-D

  16. 16.

    brantl

    @NotMax: yep, the same deck who pardoned Richard Nixon. He was on a really scum tastic role.

    this is a crime in criminal charges should be laid as he walks off the plane. He should have to pay criminally for this. And since it’s a state crime Dumpy won’t be able to get him off

  17. 17.

    Ohio Mom

    @thruppence: You mean the protests next Saturday, I was thinking it’s time to re-post Adam’s piece on staying safe at a political rally.

    Frankly, I never made particular note of any of his suggestions because I never really worried about my personal safety at protests. Now however, I do.

  18. 18.

    HopefullyNotcassandra

    @thruppence: If this foolish president does do peaceful protestors violence, history tells us we will not accept it.

    How did firing on D.C.’s Hooverville turn out for President Hoover?

    This White House occupant has none of the goodwill Herbert Hoover earned either.  This current occupant never saved anyone from drowning.  Instead, this current resolute desk sitter is trying to destroy FEMA.

    Fear is what they use to suppress us.  Why help spread fear?

  20. 20.

    They Call Me Noni

    Noticed that my neighbor’s neighbor, whose back yard we can see from our back yard, took down his very offensive 3 x 5 Trump flag a few days ago.  AND he now has chickens!  Maybe he’s having a change of heart?  I guess the decrease in the price of eggs he thought he was going to get didn’t materialize and he’s pissed.  Or maybe he’s just not as proud of his vote as he once was.

    I know here at our house I took down our 3 x 5 stars and stripes on November 6th and burned it because I was definitely pissed.  And hurt.  And disappointed.  And heartbroken.  All the emotions.

  21. 21.

    Anonymous at Work

    Easy to make this a federal issue, by alleging bribery law is violating First Amendment.  Supreme Court, especially the bribed members, are all soft on anti-corruption laws.

  22. 22.

    Phylllis

    Tiptoeing in to wonder if anyone else enjoyed watching Hailey Van Lith shred Hannah Hidalgo and Notre Dame as much as I did. No one? Ok, off to watch the Vols take it to Texas.

  25. 25.

    HopefullyNotcassandra

    @MobiusKlein: In this case, it is Wisconsin law this tech bro is violating.  The Oval Office occupant cannot pardon a conviction under any state law.

  26. 26.

    Another Scott

    Meanwhile, … JSOnline.com:

    More than 500,000 voters have cast ballots ahead of Tuesday’s pivotal spring election when partisan control of the state’s highest court is on the ballot.

    The overall number of absentee ballots returned by mail or cast in person is up 54% compared to the number votes cast during the same time period during the 2023 spring election when the same stakes were on the ballot. The number of voters utilizing the state’s in-person early voting option has increased by 102%.

    That increase over the 2023 voting numbers reflects, in part, surges of early voting in more conservative counties where such practices were questioned by false claims of fraud pushed by President Donald Trump.

    But now, Republicans have gotten behind the practice and pushed the idea to voters.

    As of Friday, 288,524 people have voted early by casting in-person absentee ballots. That’s up from 142,763 that had voted the same way by the Friday before the 2023 spring election, according to data provided by the Wisconsin Elections Commission.

    In 2023, 352,818 had voted by this time in the election cycle through a mix of returning mail-in absentee ballots and voting absentee in person. As of Friday, 543,875 absentee ballots have been cast so far. Total voter turnout in the 2023 election came to just over 1.8 million.

    The surge in early voting has materialized as spending in the state Supreme Court race for control of the court between Waukesha County Circuit Judge Brad Schimel, a conservative, and Dane County Circuit Judge Susan Crawford, a liberal, has eclipsed national records for statewide races. In 2023, the race also broke records in spending for state races.

    The 2025 election features a second statewide race, which may explain the additional interest at least in part. State Superintendent Jill Underly, a Democrat, faces Brittany Kinser, an education consultant backed by conservatives, in a race to lead the state Department of Public Instruction.

    The counties with the highest number of in-person early voters are Milwaukee, Waukesha, Dane, Washington and Brown.

    The conservative-leaning Washington County has experienced a massive 165% increase in early voting over 2023 data during the same time period, while GOP stronghold of Waukesha County also has seen a large increase of 100% over the 2023 voting pattern. In Brown County, in-person early voting has increased by 108%.

    In the Democratic voting centers of Dane and Milwaukee, in-person early voting has increased by 82% and 86%, respectively.

    The data provides a snapshot of voter engagement in this battleground state since Trump defeated Vice President Kamala Harris in November for the presidency — a bruising battle that blanketed airwaves and brought both candidates and their surrogates to Wisconsin weekly.

    Now, the race for control of the court is emerging as another battle over Trump as billionaire Trump ally Elon Musk pours money into Schimel’s campaign with ads suggesting Schimel will be a loyal justice to Trump.

    Early voting runs through Sunday, though many municipalities end in-person early voting Friday. The last day for most voters to request an absentee ballot is 5 p.m. Thursday.

    […]

    The other side is engaged. We have to be as well and cannot be complacent. Every vote matters.

    Come on, sensible people in Wisconsin. The country and the world (and the future) are counting on you!

    (via https://mstdn.social/@GottaLaff (she’s in Canada now – is it still legal to cite her??))

    Best wishes,
    Scott.

  28. 28.

    The Thin Black Duke

    Thinking back on Octavia Butler’s Parable of the Sower, sometimes I wonder if the legendary SF author was a time traveler.

  29. 29.

    HopefullyNotcassandra

    @cmorenc: Georgia did make it illegal to offer voters water close to the polls.
    Georgia legislators tried to make it illegal to offer food or water to voters
    https://www.cnn.com/2023/08/18/politics/georgia-election-law-ban-food-water-voters-line/index.html

    A Georgia judge clarified that food and water could not be offered in the “buffer zone.”

    His ruling on so-called line-warming allowed the ban to still be enforced in what he dubbed the “buffer zone” around a polling place, within 150 feet of the building where ballots are being cast

  35. 35.

    MobiusKlein

    @HopefullyNotcassandra: I was a bit off topic, musing about the limits of pardons in general.   Could Biden have seized tons of guns, and promised / granted pardons for the folks doing so, in violation of 2nd amendment? Can Trump pardon folks who enslave people? At what point do promises of pardons subvert actual rights in Bill of Rights?

  36. 36.

    Geminid

    I saw an update on Turkish graduate student Ruseyma Ozturk, who seized by ICE agents in Massachusetts a few days ago. Her attorney and the Turkish Consul General for Houston visited her at the Louisiana facility where she is being held today. I believe a federal judge in Massachusetts has a hearing scheduled for her case on Tuesday.

    This is from Reuters and Ankara-based Clash Report.

  37. 37.

    Ealbert

    Since this is an open thread and Tuesday is election day in Wisconsin, there is a landowner on a route I travel often who has a large wooden sign for Brad Schimmel (spelling?), used to be for Trump. The value of this is that he also has small signs for less important races that I am not as familiar with, so now I have the more races that I know who NOT to vote for.

  39. 39.

    japa21

    @Another Scott:  I wouldn’t take the higher numbers in conservative areas as a tell.  A lot of Republicans are pissed at Musk and Trump and may be voting for Crawford just to give them the middle finger.  Wisconsin is one of those states that doesn’t like outsiders telling them what to do.

    That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t take that increase into account, but a lot of that increase may benefit us, while I highly doubt the increase in the blue areas is of any benefit to the GOP.

    I also agree with a commenter above about  Musk being sued.  Why isn’t he having charges filed against him.  Maybe they have to wait to see if he goes through with it, but the law says “offers” not “gives”.

  40. 40.

    WaterGirl

    @Ealbert: My neighbor across the street was a reliable indicator for “opposite” voting.  He moved this year, so now I have to research school boards, sheriff, etc.

  45. 45.

    Gin & Tonic

    I love New England spring. It is 37 degrees in my back yard. 165 miles away, at my son’s place in NYC, it is 79.

  46. 46.

    Jay

    @japa21:

    The last time Apartheid Clyde did his “bucks for voters” “giveway”, the State sued and no bucks were given.

    In this case, the State probably want’s to avoid the lengthy court cases and appeals all the way to the White Supremacy Court, that an arrest and charge would result in.

    The UberRich don’t have the same rights as you and me.

  47. 47.

    Geminid

    @NotMax: That’s one reason I want to learn Turkish. There’s a saying: “Persian is for poetry, Arabic is for prose, and Turkish is for cursing.”

  48. 48.

    Marc

    @Jay:  Actually, bucks were given, but Musk said the recipients were previously chosen rather than randomly selected, so it was all good.  One way or another, he’s a liar.

  49. 49.

    Jay

    U.S. immigration authorities detained and revoked the visa of a Russian scientist who opposes the war in Ukraine and had been conducting genetic research at Harvard Medical School, her friends and colleagues said this week.

    Ksenia Petrova was stopped at Boston Logan International Airport on Feb. 16 after returning from a personal trip in France. U.S. officials revoked her research visa for failing to properly declare frog embryos she had brought with her, according to The Harvard Crimson.

    U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) officers detained Petrova after she expressed fears of political persecution if she returned to Russia, the student newspaper reported, citing her lawyer Gregory Romanovsky.

    Romanovsky said that failure to declare an item at customs typically results in a fine of up to $500 and confiscation of the item but does not grant CBP the authority to cancel a visa.

    Petrova’s Harvard Medical School supervisor, Leon Peshkin, told The Guardian that he had “made a huge mistake” in asking Petrova to bring the frog embryo samples from French colleagues. According to him, Petrova made a paperwork error on her U.S. customs declaration.

    https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2025/03/28/russian-scientist-at-harvard-medical-school-detained-by-us-border-agents-a88521

  50. 50.

    They Call Me Noni

    @Geminid: I may already be cursing in Turkish and not realize it!  I have to make up words because the Tiny Terror (great granddaughter) is here frequently so I have to be mindful of what I say.  Made up words are not out of bounds.

  51. 51.

    Gin & Tonic

    I’m seeing reports that Quisling Rep. Victoria Spartz’s town hall did not go well for her at all. Booed from beginning to end. Good.

  53. 53.

    Terraformer

    I’ve verified our absentee ballots were received, and hoping we can get Crawford in there.

    i noticed the late change in admission criteria: up until very recently, it was “anyone who already voted in the SC race” and now it’s:

    Musk’s America PAC posted on X that entrance to his town hall “will be limited to those who have signed the petition in opposition to activist judges

  54. 54.

    Martin

    It’s not clear to me where things go from here and whether there’s time to stop this on Sunday.

    This is a problem the US is going to have to figure out, as we now have an executive branch run by people who have an open strategy of breaking the law faster than the courts can hold them accountable. This is Bannon’s flood the zone strategy, recognizing that institutions including the media struggle to keep up with a fast enough stream of information. Same is true of the courts and congress. The courts need to learn that when this tactic is being used, they have to hold individuals and remove them from the spaces where they can do that. But we are miles from a culture that would allow that.

  55. 55.

    Geminid

    @They Call Me Noni: I saw a funny video that made me wish I understood Turkish. It was taken from somebody’s window overlooking an urban thoroughfare. A well dressed man had stopped his nice sedan in front of a semi-truck, and as he walked towards the truck he was shouting about what I assume was a traffic dispute.

    Turns out it was a woman truck driver. When he got up to the cab, she started shaking her fist and cussing him out. After about 10 seconds of mutual yelling, the man threw one arm in the air and stomped back to his car. I wish I knew what she said.

  56. 56.

    Sure Lurkalot

    @Dr Daniel Price (Saint Vincent):

    “States’ rights” has always meant “rights of states to enact laws approved by Republicans”.  “Local control” has always meant “control by the lowest level of Republican government”.

    Such truths bear repeating.

  57. 57.

    japa21

    @Terraformer: ​
      I would have no problem signing that petition. I am totally against activist judges like Alito, Thomas, Cannon and the idiot in Texas.

  58. 58.

    Argiope

    Just back from a Tesla Takedown in the burbs of Cleveland.  520 in attendance, with LOTS of honking supportive motorists.  Both sides of the street full for an entire city block.  Good times! My favorite sign: “Teslas are the shittiest machines I’ve ever raged against.” Groot the German Shepherd from our sidebar photo was there with his person, who I introduced to the blog.  Today his sign read “Kongs not Kings.”  He remembered me and I was able to provide immediate scritchies.

  59. 59.

    They Call Me Noni

    @Geminid: Me too.  I would love to know her magic words so I could use them in public at will.  Sounds like she got the best of him though.  You gotta love a woman who knows how to cuss properly.  I did my time in Tenneessee (18 years) and a saccharine “bless your heart” is just not enough to meet these times.

  60. 60.

    WaterGirl

    @Marc:

    One way or another, he’s a liar.

    Truth.

    Another sad truth is this – that could apply to nearly every member of the cabinet and the DOGE boys and many others.

  61. 61.

    Geminid

    @They Call Me Noni: I noticed the truck driver kept one hand inside the cab. She was probably waiting for him to get close so she could club him. I think he knew it, too. He kept his distance.

  62. 62.

    WaterGirl

    @Martin:

    The courts need to learn that when this tactic is being used, they have to hold individuals and remove them from the spaces where they can do that.

    Absolutely true.  I think Judge Boasberg is only about an inch from there, and learning fast.

  63. 63.

    rikyrah

    @HopefullyNotcassandra:

    A Georgia judge clarified that food and water could not be offered in the “buffer zone.”

    His ruling on so-called line-warming allowed the ban to still be enforced in what he dubbed the “buffer zone” around a polling place, within 150 feet of the building where ballots are being cast

    uh huh

    uh huh

  67. 67.

    lowtechcyclist

    @rikyrah: Too bad I’m up here in Maryland. Georgia’s just too damn far to travel in order to be arrested for doing what Jesus said to do.

  69. 69.

    Parfigliano

    Poor people commiting crimes the govt arrests them to stop them.    Elon commits crimes the govt threatens civil suit to stop them.

    American justice system

  70. 70.

    Trivia Man

    @They Call Me Noni: im still bummed i missed my ‘bless your heart’ opportunity. In Nashville, im a talk white dude wearing a bright tie dye. 2 older ladies are gabbing in front of the carts.

    I manage to get one anyway
 and they swing in front of me. And stop to talk IN THE DOORWAY!! I pause a little then say Excuse Me, polite like. Ignored. I start to move around.

    They proceed
 then stop again just past the door. This time I bang into their cart and apologize. After the second bump they reluctantly move.

    i was no more than 2 steps past when i had that l’esprit d’scalier
 shoulda said Bless your heart as i passed. Bet it would have been unexpected as all get out n a Yankee accent

  71. 71.

    lowtechcyclist

    @Parfigliano: And this is one of those rare opportunities to treat a rich criminal just like any other criminal. It will SO piss me off if the state doesn’t take advantage of it.

  74. 74.

    They Call Me Noni

    @Trivia Man: Oh honey, they looked right past you.  In their own little world.  And a very entitled world it is.  I had a moment just like that yesterday at Home Goods (here in southern Indiana).  Was kinda leaning beside a woman who was a good 6 inches taller than me trying to look at something of interest.  She was in the middle of an otherwise empty aisle with her cart in front of her taking up all the room.  I reached beside her to retrieve the item of interest and she said “you could say excuse me”.  Oh the nerve! thought I.  To which I replied “well Karen, you could move your ass up the aisle about six inches”.  Perhaps I was rude, but she just looked so entitled and I was not in the mood.

  75. 75.

    Martin

    Just an FYI, it looks like FDIC insured institution can now meet their asset reserves (the funds they keep liquid so you can withdraw cash) by holding crypto. FDIC signaling that banks should self-regulate on this.

    You should contact your bank and ask them about their policies and consider moving your savings/checking to an institution that doesn’t do this. The lowering of asset reserves was a serious factor in the financial crisis.

    Crypto is very similar to mortgage trading in that in order to convert crypto back to cash (so depositors can withdraw) it needs entities to be willing to pour cash into the market. When housing prices fell, banks didn’t have cash (because home sales fell off) and they couldn’t convert their held mortgages back to cash because nobody had cash to inject in that system (hence the bailout). You’ll have a similar problem here. Super obvious problem to see coming.

  77. 77.

    Baud

    Rampant Lawlessness, Part XXX

    Was expecting an early Balloon Juice After Dark. Disappointed.

  78. 78.

    Another Scott

    @Baud: It was racier earlier, with an extra two Xes.  (XXXXX).  You missed out!

    ;-)

    Best wishes,
    Scott.

  79. 79.

    Trivia Man

    @They Call Me Noni: nice! I always try my best to maneuver around, often that dies entail reaching over or past someone, but nobody has ever given ke glak. Either i am SCARY or its just polite people ive always encountered.
    Wife hates it when i bump their cart with mine but IDGAF. Always, so far, when they stop juuuuust past the doorway. Bang! Oh,  im sorry

  80. 80.

    zhena gogolia

    I wish people would quit telling me about Tim Snyder.

    How to stand up to a dictator: leave the country. Very simple! Thanks for the advice, Tim!

  81. 81.

    Baud

    @Trivia Man:

    Wife hates it when i bump their cart with mine but IDGAF. Always, so far, when they stop juuuuust past the doorway. Bang! Oh, im sorry

     
    Getting more after darky. Thanks.

  86. 86.

    WTFGhost

    @MobiusKlein: POTUS pardon is considered absolute, with one exception: western justice says that no man may be judge/jury for themselves, so “he can’t pardon himself,” is a real question (phrased as a statement), that would be answered by Republicans on the SCOTUS. Odds are there are five Republican votes, which means it doesn’t matter if there are four remaining justices.

    Alas, it doesn’t even matter why the President issues a pardon. I think it’s like a priest granting absolution for sins – even if the President (or priest) was doing it in return for a bribe and continued participation in a criminal conspiracy, the *pardon* would still be good – just, the rest of the stuff (bribery, et. al. ) might not be covered.

    @NedF: And if Polish people closed the polls and the bars, we’d have the Poles closing polls and Poles opening bars, which can be poles, if held plumb.

    @H.E.Wolf: You’ve got some wisdom stuck on your chin there – napkin?

    @different-church-lady: We can claim he lied on his student visa (he used it as a work permit), which strips his green card, which strips his citizenship eligibility, according to Marco Rubio.

    @WaterGirl: Though long screeds about methodology of using drugs unlawful in many states might not be appreciated by the front pagers – not that I’d have any experience with such things.

    @NotMax: If that’s not the setup to Mars Needs Women, someone needs to do a remake.

    (Hoping I can count to six, with my masters in mathematics.)

  87. 87.

    Jackie

    @Baud: If you’ve ever watched CNN’s Have I Got News For You, Amber Ruffin is 1/3 of the comedy show, and she rips into the FFOTUS like no other! One absolutely knows her low opinion about him! I would have watched the WHCD just to watch her.

  89. 89.

    Parfigliano

    @lowtechcyclist: Yup.  Arrest Musk on the tarmac ditto any of his guards that even attempt to intervene.  No phone call for him until after he is pictured, printed, strip searched.  Give him the everyday arrestee treatment.  No more no less.

  92. 92.

    Jay

    @zhena gogolia:

    The Monk School at the U of T has been in the works for 3 years. US Universities complying in advance had a huge impact on those deciding to teach elsewhere.

    Now if the Universities, more so those with huge Endowments and powerful Alumni had stood up instead of rolled over, maybe things would be different.

    But when you are Faculty, and they strip you of your students, ban your subject matter, you go where you can teach.

    It’s akin to one of our juicers, fired not fired from her field, deciding that they are only looking at private employment in their field, not Government, because all Government jobs are precarious.

  93. 93.

    WTFGhost

    @HopefullyNotcassandra: He wants to use violence, but people like him will tend to go to violence too early. Hell – people were spreading hate-rumors about the people gunned down at Kent State, but probably only after they heard the dirty effing hippies weren’t going to let it go, like the Vietnamese.

    @They Call Me Noni: Bayes rule. It gets everyone, at first, then, people become Bayesians so people won’t dare ask them any questions.

    (Bayes Rule is why, eventually, most people sick with Covid-19 had had the first vaccine, because few enough people skipped that first one. Conditional probabilities. And sometimes, chickens are sacrificed, washed down with excess diet Coke.)

    Um: “Hey, Noni Noni,” or is that too personal a question?

    @MobiusKlein: Yes.

    @Professor Bigfoot: Heh. I’m one of the few people I know of, who, if I realize I’m doing something that pisses me off, realize I either have to stop being pissed off, or, had to stop doing that. It seems the best way of developing courteous driving habits.

    @Dr Daniel Price (Saint Vincent): States Rights has traditionally meant “legalized bigotry” but after the civil rights acts, they’ve pretended it’s never been *racist*, it’s just, always been used that way.

    @Trivia Man: I’m starting to perfect the disabled-person’s glare. I’ll be glad to give lessons when I get it down pat. “You don’t have to know why I’m in this much pain – you just need to know you’re making it worse.”

  97. 97.

    They Call Me Noni

    @Trivia Man: Good snark.  Which is what drew me to this site, “stay for the snark”.  Thank you Kevin Drum.  I do love me some snark.  And I am learning so much.  My daughter does social media, I do not, but I told her that I feel like I’ve found my tribe.  I hesitate, thus far, to say very much politically because I feel a bit inferior.  But I think that in time I will get my feet under me.

  98. 98.

    Jackie

    @They Call Me Noni:

    I feel like I’ve found my tribe. I hesitate, thus far, to say very much politically because I feel a bit inferior.  But I think that in time I will get my feet under me.

    You are doing just fine – and Welcome to BJ!

  100. 100.

    Another Scott

    @Dr Daniel Price (Saint Vincent): @Sure Lurkalot: @WTFGhost:

    While “states rights” has been tied up with bigotry for hundreds of years, someone not too long ago pointed out that it’s a gigantic category error.

    (Yeah the site is problematic, so caveat emptor!)  (repost) WashingtonExaminer.com – States do not have Rights, People do (from August 2010).

    Of course, that was written in the days of a very young Obamacare, when the RWNJs were demanding that the states have power to do whatever they wanted instead.  He might slant it a little differently with 47 in the White House now…  ;-)

    FWIW.

    Best wishes,
    Scott.

  101. 101.

    No One of Consequence

    Good evening Jackals.

    I note here with a weary heart the results of attempted discussion of two items I asked a brother in law when we were at his daughter’s place today, with my son working with his son in law, on refamilliarizing my son with the shotgun and then some 22 work. The past two seasons, I have been fortunate to have my niece’s husband take my son on two successful turkey hunts, for which I am grateful. I do not hunt myself, and though a somewhat seasoned backpacker, and a capable shot, don’t like guns nor killing what I don’t need to eat, or defend myself against.

    My brother in law is a good man, but a republican and a too-heavy-handed christian. I was raised methodist, but do not practice nor follow and my wife is a buddhist. I have tried to attempt to raise my son to make up his own mind. He knows I am agnostic, though he believes I am atheist, I draw the line at proving a negative. Even in the case of God, it cannot be done. Never been willing to tell anyone else what they should believe, just that I think there is a whole lot of doubt to go around, and organized religion of most any kind is wrong from jump, because it is no longer about the religion, it is about the organization.

    That said, I was hoping to find some common and logical ground betwixt us and utterly failed. I asked him about what he thought about the sabre rattling against Denmark and Canada. He appeared to be fine with both of them, because he fishes across the border, and has had bad times with Canada and the border crossings and hassles. He thinks Greenland is going to become important and that Russia and China had designs on it, and that we should basically get it first. Then he got pissed and wanted to talk about anything else, thinking that I wanted to draw him into a political discussion and he is well aware I pay more attention to politics than most, and would be more then prepared to discuss things.

    I didn’t press. No point really, as I wasn’t after any confrontation or displays of posturing or other bullshit. I was crestfallen because I thought he was capable of argumentation without emotion or deigns to easy strawman fallacies, etc. He’s not a stupid person, and more than capable of critical thinking. What got me was that I could see in the actions and words that he wasn’t willing to engage honestly. His mind was made up that his person experiences at crossing the border for fishing, and the fact that the melting ice ( the acknowledgement to a warming planet I gentlemanly let pass without incident ) would mean we have to gain control lest we lose it to China or Russia. Which, I also let pass the obvious logistics of the fact that Greenland is closer to us than either Russia or China and that the USA with our newfound imperialist BigBallz could smack the ever-loving shit out of China AND Russia if they decided to move offensively on Greenland, and that our team would LOVE the chance to have that fight. No need to take the territory of a NATO ally in peacetime by force, we could envelope the region in our new training spaces we just realized we needed to conduct. In perpetuity. Fuck Russia flexing there, and fuck the Chinese if they think they will have any significant presence there that we would tolerate.

    I didn’t even bother with any of the obvious arguments. He’s family and it doesn’t pay to win most fights. Still, the whole thing bothers me enough to post about it on this full-service blog to give you a slice of life from the heartland flyover country. If my brother in law’s viewpoint is all that common, the common sense and logic won’t get us out of this, because some of them are beyond self-reflection or perhaps even the notion of critical thought directed at themselves or even perhaps criticism.

    Not looking for anyone to offer insight on how to handle my brother-in-law. Going to be running same general rules as with my parents now. I’ll just avoid politics altogether, because they cannot have rational discussions about anything remotely political. Throwing out the baseline security structure of the post WW2 era? Sure, why not? Cede power to Russia and China and Europe by way of wholesale disengagement, sabre-rattling, tariff impositions, General Dickishness and Boorishness, and every other fucking thing these sons of bitches are doing to this country, and some of our brothers and sisters are fucking CHEERING THIS ON. They shouldn’t just dismantle the Department of Education, because of the obvious failure in the education of the electorate. They should take it out behind the barn and shoot it.

    What are we doing here? Trump’s going to turn our asses into goddamn North fucking Korea, in less then 6 months. Elections? Oh, my sweet summer child…

    Mississippi goddamn? Ever thought they would sing United States of America goddamn? Think no one’s singing that Right fucking Now?!

    Qui bono? People are getting their black flags ready to hoist and their razors fit for work.

    Or, we’ll just watch from the couch and change the channel if it doesn’t stay engaging enough.

    -NOoC

  106. 106.

    No One of Consequence

    @WaterGirl: Thank you very kindly for your response. I felt like shouting into the ether, but that someone might benefit from the rant or cry of despair. Won’t anyone think of the sadists? (/snark)

    I’m so frustrated that the current state of our polity has absolutely DESTROYED families. My father, my fucking FATHER is now incapable of critical thought towards the tribe. Its so, so disheartening.

    But its working on me too. I see that fucking orange bastard and I cannot look nor listen to him. I cannot stand the sight of his minions. Any of them. Won’t listen to them. Any of it.

    So, I know I’m not really any better than he. But damnit, being right has to count for something. Not right in the way of ha HA! I’m right, and you’re WRONG kind of thing, but the right in the way that my own thoughts and emotions on these matters more accurately represents the stance of his supposed messiah than HIS do. Pretty sure Jesus wouldn’t own and AR-15, and also pretty sure that Prine had it right: “Jesus don’t like killing, no matter what the Reasons For, and your flag decal won’t get you into heaven anymore…”

    I thought we could start again with rebuilding of bridges of trust with math, but I honestly don’t know if they would willingly use algebra because of the arabic sounding name…

    Thanks again for listening.
    -NOoC

  107. 107.

    No One of Consequence

    @HinTN: Would that I had learned that lesson earlier, or even that I could stop needing to relearn it.

    Peace,
    -NOoC

  108. 108.

    WTFGhost

    @No One of Consequence:So, I know I’m not really any better than he. But damnit, being right has to count for something. Not right in the way of ha HA! I’m right, and you’re WRONG kind of thing, but the right in the way that my own thoughts and emotions on these matters more accurately represents the stance of his supposed messiah than HIS do. Pretty sure Jesus wouldn’t own and AR-15, and also pretty sure that Prine had it right: “Jesus don’t like killing, no matter what the Reasons For, and your flag decal won’t get you into heaven anymore
”

    Biblically, Jesus said how to recognize a false prophet – by the fruits of the tree. Are the hungry being fed, are the needy being sheltered, are the sick, and imprisoned, cared for?

    Part of that might not be so biblical, as it is me hoping I remembered it right.

    And you’re right – it does count to be right. It’s not the failure to listen to liars that makes a person wrong – it’s the failure to listen to truth. Wishful thinking is, to my mind, the most shameful of mental vices. To think something is right, because you’d like it to be right – it’s like, how the hell could you go more wrong than following that kind of crap?

    But you’re not refusing to listen, for fear of some face that will prove you wrong – you’re refusing to waste time on people who you know don’t discuss anything in good faith. That’s a good mental discipline to follow. Don’t waste your time being deliberately lied to and manipulated.

  109. 109.

    No One of Consequence

    @WTFGhost: Very thoughtful, thank you. It took being married to realize most battles aren’t worth winning. You only have this one life, so generally, being happy is more pleasant than being right. Sometimes, one gets the chance to be right, and obviously so, demonstrably so, with time. You might even get the good fortune of being present when realization hits later, but that is indeed a rarity. Even then, if no lesson is learned upon the party intended, the entire effort is indeed conceit, and a waste of all the energy that went into it. What have you proven? How have you advanced the ball?

    I queried my brother in law about Canada and Denmark, because I wanted to get a feel for how that is playing. He got mad because he thought I was baiting him. I wasn’t, but it wasn’t uncalled for for him to believe that. I don’t typically, but I do try to use the socratic method wherever possible. My ideas or truth doesn’t mean shit, but if one can lead another to the Truth, with them doing the reasoning to get there, then, in my experience the lesson tends to stick, and later allegories assigned.

    I am not bold or frustrated enough to unleash on him, he isn’t prepared to have that argument. Neither is my father. Both are staunch conservatives. Trump is so easy to argue against it hurts. Both of them know it in their hearts, and both of them know it in their minds. The tribal hold is real. Both men who have had impact on my life, my father obviously tremendously so. I have, prior to the modern republican party, found him to be both wise and generous, yet penny-pinching and incredibly hard-working. Things started going south with W, and 9/11 and the chest-beating after that was ridiculous. Since the Iraq debacle they didn’t like the withdrawal from Afghanistan, even though I explained that it was Trump who negotiated that before Biden became president. Point out another departure from theatre that was smooth and worked as planned…

    Anyway, I cannot talk to either of them about the alarm I have with the current state of things. I cannot discuss politics with them, and though both are also staunch Christian men, I cannot speak with either of them honestly about (no offense intended here) the rather large holes in their belief system as I see it, and the historical precedents of geographically adjacent cultures being adopted, set slightly askew, and rebranded as The New Schiz.

    So, no, I cannot disengage, as they are family. I also cannot use my real (rhetorical) weaponry for fear of causing more damage than winning the argument is worth. I must await their own awakening, or their saving me some roasted pidgeon on a curtain rod, under the overpass.

    Man, I have long thought that Camus certainly had some interesting takes on things, but damn, I never thought he’d end up being RIGHT ?!

    Thanks again for listening, whether you end up seeing this or not.
    -NOoC

  113. 113.

    No One of Consequence

    @WaterGirl: And again my thanks WaterGirl. You are a blessing, and I wanted you to know.

    This morning finds me in brighter spirits, but I am still so very worried that there isn’t a means to move forward here collectively with our political counterparts. If we cannot agree upon The Givens — then we are only exchanging warm air. No argumentation is occurring. One of my most treasured learnings from Doc Klemke.

    Just now, right this very moment, the co-opting of Truth contained in the naming of Truth Social just struck me. It may very well be the heart of this entire effort. Get to the point where Truth doesn’t require proof, just identity.

    This way lies ruin.

    I fully mean and endorse both tines of the fork in the above double entendre. Accidentally clever is the best clever.
    -NOoC

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