Medium Cool is a weekly series related to popular culture, mostly film, TV, and books, with some music and games thrown in. We hope it’s a welcome break from the anger, hate, and idiocy we see almost daily from the other side in the political sphere.
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This is the second in a series of Which was Better Medium Cool posts. Today we’ll cover two topics that are close enough to cover together.
Wait, what? This is the last season of Bosch: Legacy. I am really sad about that.
Which was better?
The original or the follow-up series? (e.g. Leverage vs. Leverage: Redemption, Bosch vs. Bosch: Legacy)
The remake or the original? (e.g. The Parent Trap, Little Women)
Do me a favor and don’t veer too far off to other culture-related things or you’ll mess up the plan for next week. :-)
For those who are new to Medium Cool, these are not open threads.
Suzanne
Imma take this straight to the gutter, because I’m low-class. Law & Order: SVU is better than old-school Law & Order.
Mr. Bemused Senior
Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy: I enjoyed the movie but the BBC series wins, hands down. Not just because Alec Guinness was perfect as George Smiley. The story is just too much for a single movie.
Suzanne
@Mr. Bemused Senior: I just read that book, finally, last year. How does the series compare to the book?
Chetan Murthy
@Mr. Bemused Senior: Seconded. I rewatch TTSS and Smiley’s People, not so much for the story, or the action, but to …. bathe in it (as Connie Sachs said of those tapes of VIktorov).
Mr. Bemused Senior
@Suzanne: the series is pretty faithful to the book. I read the book after seeing the series. Of course, Bemused Senior had read it first.
I have re-watched them both (TTSS and Smiley’s People) many times. There is not a wasted second of action. It may seem slow on first viewing, but the details are all there and they can slip by if you’re not paying close attention.
Old Dan and Little Ann
The original 1979 movie of “The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe” was embarrassingly bad compared to the remake in 1988.
Chris
I actually enjoy The Italian Job remake more than the original one, despite the fact that the original one has some absolutely immortal moments (“There are some places which, to an Englishman, are sacred.” “You’re ONLY supposed to blow the BLOODY DOORS OFF!” “Hang on a minute, lads… I’ve got a great idea!”)
UncleEbeneezer
@Suzanne: Delete your account.
Suzanne
@UncleEbeneezer: I say that as someone who unapologetically loves Law & Order. But…. Olivia Benson is better than Abbie Carmichael or Serena Southerlyn or Claire Kincaid!
frosty
The new Reacher series is so much better than the Tom Cruise movies that they shouldn’t even be mentioned together.
Series is good but I’ll have to reread the book it came from to check.
Ihop
I think the Renee russo-pierce brosnan “the Thomas crown affair” is much superior to the mcqueen-dunaway version. Making the leads peers and equals hits me better than the nearly omnipotent crown of the first movie.
Suzanne
@Old Dan and Little Ann: So I know of multiple versions of The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe. An animated version that I saw when I was little, a BBC miniseries version with an actress playing the White Witch who shouted a lot, and then the movie version.
Apparently Greta Gerwig is working on a version, as well. Supposedly it’s gonna be weird.
Chris
Leverage vs Leverage: Redemption:
I’m one of the people who enjoys Nate Ford (easily the most controversial of the main characters in fandom). Largely because the show never went as hard again as it did with his origin story of having his kid legally murdered by the American health insurance system; that flashback is basically the scene that justifies the entire show. And as much as it’s tied in to all kinds of problematicness, his sheer rage at the world and how it shouldn’t be this way – something none of the other characters have ever really matched – is at the heart of the show for me. You lose something when that’s gone.
On the other hand, Harry from the relaunch is a more interesting character simply because of how he fell in with the Leverage crew. In a lot of ways they’re the same person, a stooge for the rich and corrupt that now spends his time righting their wrongs. The difference is, Nate fell while Harry jumped voluntarily. Nate in a lot of ways is the “I didn’t think the leopards would eat my face” meme in human form: he worked for the system his whole life and only realized how bad it was when it bit him in the ass. Harry realized it all on his own, and walked away from it despite having every possible incentive not to, just because he wanted to look at himself in the mirror again. Which also means you get to deal with his past and his need to atone for it in a way that the show never really did with Nate.
Suzanne
@Mr. Bemused Senior: Man, TTSS took me a while to read, because of all of those details. It was so good.
I love mysteries and spy novels, but I also get interrupted a lot (children, dog, work, SuzMom) and I find that I have to go back and reread scenes when I don’t get to fully absorb them. I read the book on vacation. LOL.
Miki
@Old Dan and Little Ann: Both were dreadful.
Read the books, FFS. Author prompted Imagination is the best director, imo.
TheOtherHank
WIlly Wonka and the Chocolate Factory is infinitely superior to Charlie and the Chocolate Factory. Gene Wilder’s Wonka was scary in the “he might murder everyone” kind of way. Johnny Depp’s Wonka was scary in the “he’s probably going to molest the children” kind of way.
I probably also lean towards the original because it was in heavy rotation of the weekend matinees at the base movie theater when I was a lad living in Taiwan. I think I must have seen it well over a dozen times in two years when I was in 4th and 5th grade.
lamh47
The Parent Trap is the rare remake/reboot that I love as much as I do the original.
Irishweaver
@Mr. Bemused Senior: agreed!
Irishweaver
@frosty: Agreed!
kalakal
@Chris: Heretic!
Mousebumples
@Chris: I prefer the original because there’s more Hardison. Also, I love the Parker-Hardison stuff.
Super glad that Aldis Hodge is getting jobs and is busy. But I miss Age of the Geek, baby.
Suzanne
@TheOtherHank:
Speaking of both remakes and book adaptations….. the Albert Finney version of Murder on the Orient Express is superior, by far, to the Kenneth Branagh version. But Johnny Depp was a great person to play Ratchett/Cassetti, and he definitely read as shiftier than the character as portrayed in the original.
ETA: Sean Connery yelling, “IT’S A USED PEEP CLEANER” is still hilarious.
UncleEbeneezer
@Suzanne: Fair. The women characters on the original L&O were never particularly good. They always seemed like they were written by men.
UncleEbeneezer
@Suzanne: The animated version was creepy as hell, when I was a kid. I loved it!
NotMax
A few quick entries. As always, YMMV.
Movies –
La Chèvre: grade A. American remake, Pure Luck: charitable D.
Purple Noon: B+. The Talented Mr. Ripley: B-minus.
Terminator: A-minus. Terminator 2: A.
Television –
Rake: A-minus. American remake: C-minus.
Tehanu
@Mr. Bemused Senior: Totally with you on that. Not only Alec Guinness, but all the other actors as well, and the greater length really allowed the story to develop properly.
A remake that is much better than the original: Heaven Can Wait beats Here Comes Mr. Jordan all hollow. I also prefer the remake of Sabrina with Harrison Ford, Greg Kinnear, and Julia Ormond; true, Julia isn’t Audrey Hepburn, but the original is incredibly sexist, and William Holden is completely miscast, and Hepburn and Bogart have zero chemistry.
UncleEbeneezer
Not better than the original, but Spielberg’s remake of West Side Story was really great, imo. Aside from the stupid new version of Cool, everything else was very good.
Suzanne
@UncleEbeneezer: I liked it, too. I read the Narnia books multiple times as a kid, and am now reading them to Spawn the Youngest…. and none of the movies have held a candle to the books, IMHO.
UncleEbeneezer
For absolute worst remake ever, I nominate Red Dragon. The 1980’s film Manhunter was exponentially better, scarier, more stylish in every way.
BellaPea
@frosty: I haven’t read the books, but my husband is a Reacher fanatic and has read them all. He said the Tom Cruise movies were just really bad and Allen Richer is perfect for the part in the new series. I usually don’t like very violent TV shows, but have to admit I have enjoyed watching the new Reacher.
kalakal
The Guns of Navarone was far better than Force 10 from Navarone
Thunderbirds – Gerry Anderson’s puppet series was far better than Thunderbirds the live action film
The Avengers (the British TV series) was far better than the film and was also better than The New Avengers remake series though the remake does boost it’s ranking by having Joanna Lumley in it
The 1974 Murder on the Orient Express is still the best version
Yes Minister and Yes Prime Minister were both perfect
UncleEbeneezer
@NotMax: Have you seen Ripley the Netflix series? It’s pretty superb (though obviously much longer and a bit different). Adam Scott gives a masterclass performance, the cinematography is gorgeous and we found it pretty riveting from beginning to end.
MoCaAce
I’m going to go all controversial and say the original Dune was better than…
actually I can’t do it. I couldn’t even make it through the original. So very bad
Craig
Rio Bravo better than El Dorado. I love the musical interlude with Dean Martin and Rickey Nelson. Plus Angie Dickinson❤️
Craig
@UncleEbeneezer: agreed. Tom Noonan is creepy as hell.
pajaro
The original Shogun series, with Richard Chamberlain, who passed away today, was great fun. The Shogun aired last year, that won multiple Emmys, was truly wonderful television. The filming, the acting, the way they foregrounded the Japanese, rather than just the Europeans…It may have been the best thing on TV in the last year.
NotMax
@UncleEbeneezer
Have not. Thanks for the recommendation.
Chris
@Mousebumples:
I thought the new series also kind of screwed Parker. The original one ended with the two elders retiring and the three yutes taking over the business, with Parker running the show. (According to John Rogers, it was intentional from the start that the most “broken” of the five members of the cast would be the one who underwent the most growth, and ending the show with her running it was a nice way to cap that off).
Except the new one basically has her take a back seat to Sophie as the leader of her crew, and to Hardison as leader of the overall Leverage network. Which seemed a shame.
kalakal
@UncleEbeneezer: Totally agree
Another very sad attempt at remakes was an attempt to revive the Len Deighton Harry Palmer character seen in The Ipcress File and Funeral in Berlin * in 1995 with Bullet to Beijing and Midnight in St. Petersberg. A much older Michael Caine not trying to hard and poor scripts, Deighton was not involved, they’re a pale shadow of the excellent originals
* Billion Dollar Brain wasn’t very good really
Craig
I’ll take Against All Odds over Out of the Past. Rachel Ward and an insane car chase. Though Mitchum, Jane Greer, and Kirk Douglas are brilliant. I’ll take both I guess.
zhena gogolia
@UncleEbeneezer: I liked it a lot too. I’m not crazy about the original, except for certain moments. All that dubbing ruins it.
Doug R
We Can Remember It For You Wholesale is better than the 1990 Total Recall. Which was way better than the 2012 “Total Recall”.
The short story is imaginative, the movie veers too close to “it’s all a dream”. And WTF was that remake? A few cool minutes of zero-G does not make a movie.
WaterGirl
@Mousebumples: I 💕Hardison
Yes, he and Parker are so great together.
Rachel Bakes
Loved original Parent Trap as a child and young adult because Hayley Mills ans Maureen O’Hara. Adored the remake as well since I loved Natasha Richardson and Dennis Quaid as well as the butler/housekeeper chemistry.
only saw original Avengers and there’s no way anything can beat it.
Mission:Impossible. Original cast. First introduced to a later collection with Jim and Barnie and have fond memories. Don’t talk to me about the movies.
never saw earlier or later versions of Thomas Crown Affair (pierce Brosnan and Renee Russo wins); Charade (truth about Charlie. Why bother when the original had Grant, Hepburn, and so many other greats); Oceans 11 (only saw Pitt, etc version).
NeenerNeener
Well, dragging this discussion into the silly…Buffy the Vampire Slayer the series is far superior to the original movie. Fran Kazui was afraid Whedon’s story was too intense for kids so she dumbed it down and yucked it up. She still owns the rights to the name and ends up as an executive producer on every iteration, but when it went to television she had no input to the story, and she will have no input to the revival that’s currently in negotiations.
Chris
One thing I do generally loathe, at the risk of being completely basic? The Disney live-action remake fad. It’s literally just “let’s take our entire catalog of greatest hits and do it all over again.” So goddamn lazy.
kalakal
I don’t feel I’m going out on a limb by saying 2001: A Space Odyssey was better than 2010: Odyssey 2.
prostratedragon
Right now I’m watching A Night to Remember. It is better to me than Titanic. I even think b&w beats color in this case.
caringandsensitive
The Hustler was WAY!!! better than The Color of Money.
Chris
@Rachel Bakes:
I thoroughly disliked all the ways the movies moved away from what made the original Mission: Impossible show unique and into a more James Bondish direction. Or at least I used to. Nowadays, I’m like “you know what, they’re pretty much the only franchise that’s even trying to do classic James Bond style sixties tuxedo-and-martini spy fiction. James Bond certainly isn’t doing it anymore, it’s tried way too hard to adapt to the world of Jason Bourne. Somebody should be doing it, and if it’s Mission: Impossible, well, there are worse things.”
Relatedly, there was also a revival of the original series in 1988, also starring Peter Graves. I enjoyed the original TV show, but the few episodes of the revival that I saw just didn’t really do anything for me.
Craig
Cowboy Bebop american dub is better than the original Japanese with subtitles. The writers and voice actors really got it. The Netflix live action version is a crime against cinema.
A woman from anywhere (formerly Mohagan)
@Suzanne: Oh yeah, the Albert Finney Poirot movies are way better than the Branagh remakes. And neither is close to the David Suchet BBC shows!
Greta Gerwig’s Little Women was a masterpiece IMO, leaving all the other versions in the dust. She’s a genius. Look what she did with Barbie.
A woman from anywhere (formerly Mohagan)
@Craig: I agree!
Just look at that parking lot
I’ll take the 1953 version of War of the Worlds over the the 2005 remake solely because Tom Cruise is no where to be seen.
Suzanne
@A woman from anywhere (formerly Mohagan): Okay, Imma gonna say something else that’s probably heresy: I kind of hate Little Women. The book. The movies. I just cannot stand any of the characters and I sort of want bad things to happen to them all.
mayim
Angela Lansbury was an excellent actress but she wasn’t Miss Marple. The Joan Hickson versions of the various Miss Marple adaptations were much better than the earlier or later attempts with other women playing Jane Marple. I enjoyed the more recent Marple adaptation but they really weren’t as good or as true to the books.
I’m generally not a huge Lucille Ball fan, but the original of Yours, Mine, and Ours was definitely better than the remake.
Jack Canuck
Just finished the 2000s Battlestar Galactica a few nights ago (re-watching for me and my wife, first time for my son). To say it’s vastly better than the original 1978 version is an understatement of, well, galactic proportions. And I say that having loved the original as a kid of 8 or 9!
frosty
This is where I get to shout “Heretic!”
We forced my S-I-L to watch the first one, this being not her genre of movie ever. When the tanker truck blew up she was walking back and forth in front of the TV saying “He’s dead now right? He’s dead now.”
Then Schwarzenegger walked out of the flames.
lowtechcyclist
@MoCaAce:
I’m gonna say the National Lampoon’s Doon is better than Dune. It does such a good job of puncturing the overseriousness and Terrible Purpose of the original, where the fate of civilization hangs on every damned gesture.
NeenerNeener
@A woman from anywhere (formerly Mohagan): I’m kind of sorry she didn’t get to do the follow on to How I Met Your Mother…How I Met Your Father. The Father version that finally was created on streaming just ok.
Craig
@caringandsensitive: those are two different books. Your point holds though. Scorsese fall way too much in love with DP Michael Ballhaus’ crash pushes. It gets old. I thought Cruise was ok there. Newman and Scorsese were able to channel his crazy in where his character should. You just can’t compete with Newman, Jackie Gleason, Piper Laurie, and scene stealing George C. Scott.
Cliosfanboy
Usually, the original is better. There are some exceptions: Battlestar Galactica, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Dune, and Shogun.
For the “WHY did they remake this?” please see Hellboy, Grease II, Against All Odds, War of the Worlds, and the entire run of live versions of classic Disney cartoons.
Opinions differ on Sherlock Holmes (I prefer the latter ones myself) and Robin Hood (I’ll take Douglas Fairbanks over Errol Flynn myself.). And then there is The Front Page/His Girl Friday, in which ALL of the versions are good!
zhena gogolia
@mayim: We have recently watched the entire Joan Hickson set of Marples, and for each one we would then watch one of the later ones. Yes, Hickson is great, and those shows have an ineffable stodgy charm (love her tweed suits and delicate knit sweaters and shawls!), but they are SLOOOOOW.
Our most fun thing was watching three versions of The Mirror Crack’d: first the movie with Lansbury as Marple, Elizabeth Taylor as the superstar, Rock Hudson as her husband, and Tony Curtis as a crass producer; then Hickson with Claire Bloom as the superstar; then the more recent version with Julia McKenzie as Marple, Lindsay Duncan as the superstar, but most importantly, JOANNA LUMLEY as Dolly. That was the best! I adore Claire Bloom, but like Taylor, she stuck out like a sore thumb, and you were always aware that she really was a superstar. Lindsay Duncan was the only one who actually played the CHARACTER, so you weren’t constantly thinking she was Lindsay Duncan! And the interplay between McKenzie and Lumley was FANTASTIC.
Sorry for all the capital letters!
Tehanu
@Suzanne: Me too. I always preferred Jack and Jill and An Old-Fashioned Girl; how come nobody ever makes a movie from them?
@mayim: I hated Joan Hickson, she didn’t have any of the warmth of Miss Marple in the books. On the other hand, Margaret Rutherford was unmatchable even though she wasn’t anything like the book version!
lowtechcyclist
@Suzanne:
I haven’t seen any, but I can’t see how they could.
Similarly the attempts to film Madeleine L’Engle’s A Wrinkle in Time, which I have seen a couple of.
Craig
@Jack Canuck: it was so good, and towards the end just fell off a cliff.
Craig
@frosty: agreed. Come with me if you want to live.
mrmoshpotato
There’s a reason Carpenter’s 1982 remake is called John Carpenter’s The Thing.
HOT! DAMN!
A woman from anywhere (formerly Mohagan)
@Suzanne: I understand your feelings about the book! What I particularly loved about the movie was how Jo was shown being pressured into having a happy ending with a man, and then Greta had it both ways, kind of, with Jo. My husband saw it with me and was astonished at how subversive it was with Jo (and in a way), with Amy. He of course had never read it or seen any of the other movie versions and had assumed it was a Meg, trad wife fest.
MoCaAce
@lowtechcyclist:
haven’t seen it… it’s on my list
zhena gogolia
@Suzanne: I have tried and failed to read Little Women, even when I was a kid. It really turns me off.
But — I used to love the June Allyson version (Peter Lawford! Rossano Brazzi!), and I enjoyed the (ptui!) Susan Sarandon version and the Greta Gerwig version. But I don’t think I’ll ever watch another version. I’ve plumbed the depths of that particular story!
The one with (ptui!) Susan Sarandon had good acting from Winona Ryder and Kirsten Dunst and Christian Bale.
funlady75
“The Razors Edge “with Tyrone Power & Gene Tierney was so much better then Bill Murray version…..Also Hitchcock movie “The Man who knew too much” remake with Jimmy Stewart & Doris Day so much better than 1934 movie…. I am a TCM junkie…..
frosty
@Craig: “Come with me if you want to live” is from Terminator 2. And damn, you’re right, it’s a great moment! I may have to revise my recommendation. Hell, they’re both good!
zhena gogolia
@funlady75: Haha, we are among the few who prefer the later Man Who Knew Too Much. I have come to a greater appreciation of Doris Day over the years. She’s very good in that.
Suzanne
@zhena gogolia: The Winona Ryder one was well-made and well-acted. I just…. hate the Jo March character. She’s just twee and irritating.
Also not a fan of Anne of Green Gables.
Dorothy A. Winsor
@A woman from anywhere (formerly Mohagan): I read a bunch of Alcott’s books when I was a kid, but the Greta Gerwig movie was the only one I saw. I liked it a lot.
I don’t see many remakes. The exception is Pride and Prejudice. I don’t know how many versions of it there are, but I’m still loyal to Colin Firth.
Downpuppy
There are at least 7 movie versions of Little Women. I’ve only seen the Gerwig. It was pretty good, so it has to be #1. The poster for the 1994 has them all in makeup, so to hell with that. Don’t want to see Hepburn or the silents. The 1949 Elizabeth Taylor version looks amazing.
Chris
In honor of the show I’m currently rewatching before Season 2 drops;
One of the better points I’ve seen made about Andor is that in its basic premise, it’s basically a remake of the original Star Wars from 1977: a guy living on the fringes of society out in the badlands of his universe, who initially has no interest in anything beyond keeping his head down, over the course of the story gets radicalized into joining the fight to overthrow the existing social order. It’s just that being a twelve-part series from the 2020s rather than a two-hour movie from the seventies, Andor gets to take its time and tell a much more detailed and complex version of that story.
A woman from anywhere (formerly Mohagan)
@Jack Canuck: I never saw the original Battlestar Galactica, but I agree the 2000s remake was fabulous. Great SF battle scenes, contemplation of religion, immortality, what it means to be human, etc. And great characters, especially the slippery scientist Gaius Baltar with the Cylon angel/devil whispering in his ear.
Scout211
I’m not a fan, either. I didn’t like the book at all. And I’ve only seen a couple versions of the movies. But I did really enjoy the1949 version with Elizabeth Taylor, Janet Leigh, Margaret O’Brien, Mary Astor, and June Allyson.
The Red Pen
I’m going to express my opinion of which was better, original or remake with one phrase:
NOT THE BEES!!!!!
IYKYN. Otherwise you can just Google it.
Downpuppy
@Suzanne: After Little Women, I had hopes Gerwig would do Redshirts. But after Barbie, she’ll have to stay away from fractured timelines for at least a decade.
Chris
@The Red Pen:
I mean, it’s Nick Cage. You can make anything worth watching with Nick Cage. Heck, I’d watch Gone With The Wind again if they remade it with Nick Cage.
God, I’m now realizing that we’ve had at least two “favorite actors?” conversations about this on Medium Cool, and I don’t think I ever mentioned Nick Cage. Something’s wrong with me.
A woman from anywhere (formerly Mohagan)
@Craig: yeah, the ending was lame. Sigh.
lowtechcyclist
@MoCaAce:
It’s a book, not a movie. I’m not sure one could make a successful movie out of the Lampoon parody.
ETA: A movie version of Bored of the Rings would be….interesting. I’d love to see the scene where they’re in trouble and Goodgulf tells Pepsi (Pippin), “Get me my white robes, and quick!” Pepsi: “Ah, white robes for white magic!” Goodgulf: “No, white robes for white flag!”
kalakal
The Pink Panther series is interesting in that the first film was meant to be a comedy crime caper with David Niven and Robert Wagner. Clouseau was just meant to add the odd comic relief. Blake Edwards realised he’d struck gold as soon as Sellars started and did some fast thinking.
I think the best in the franchise is A Shot in the Dark ( “Is that your minkey?”)
and the later ones are not so good. Even so far better than the one’s where Clouseau was played by Alan Arkin & Steve Martin
Suzanne
@Chris: Nicolas Cage is interesting. Sometimes it is clear that he’s doing something just for the paycheck, but then other times he’s so good.
ETA: No shame in doing things for the paycheck. I mean, I do lots of shit for my paycheck. LOL.
Downpuppy
And then there are movies where they should have stopped after 1 –
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeyMfq6v190
A woman from anywhere (formerly Mohagan)
@Dorothy A. Winsor: The Pride and Prejudice version with Keira Knightley is really good, too. It nicely suggests that Darcy is on the spectrum, which explains a lot. Very well cast movie all around. Only real problem is that Keira rarely wears a bonnet (producer decision). The consultant for the period details threw a fit in order for her to wear a bonnet in the church scene!
Melancholy Jaques
True Grit: The Jeff Bridges version is much better than the John Wayne version & that’s not just because of John Wayne’s politics making him harder to watch. Cf. Woody Allen.
Romeo & Juliet: The Franco Zeffirelli version is much better than the Baz Luhrmann version & that’s not just because the Zeffirelli version features the most attractive female I ever saw.
All Quiet On The Western Front: The three versions are all worth seeing, but the 1930 Lewis Milestone version is the best. The 1979 version was good, but I could not get past seeing the leads as John Boy Walton & Commander McHale. The recent Netflix version was much better than I expected, though it departs from the source material more than the other two.
Ninedragonspot
I think the critical consensus still seems to be that Rossini’s “Barber of Seville” is a better version than Paisiello’s.
Kelly
I can’t decide which version of “True Grit” is best.
funlady75
@funlady75: Also all the “Jane Eyre” movies & remakes after the 1st version cannot match the acting abilities of Orson Wells, the adorable Margaret O’Brien, Joan Fontaine .
zhena gogolia
@kalakal: “in a rit of fealous jage!”
West of the Rockies
@Ihop:
Oh, I concur. And I will take heat for this, but I’ve never got McQueen’s appeal. He’s got two expressions.
Boo, down with WotR!
frosty
@Melancholy Jaques: True Grit. I think the Jeff Bridges version was more true to the book. Caveat: It’s been years since I read it or watched either movie.
zhena gogolia
@funlady75: I love that one. Orson Welles IS Rochester.
TF79
@Craig: The live-action version really missed the mark, somewhat inexplicably. I also prefer the dub version of the original
frosty
@West of the Rockies: Maybe. But Steve McQueen’s two expressions were what was needed in Bullitt and The Great Escape.
lowtechcyclist
@Ninedragonspot:
I think the critical consensus still seems to be that Rossini’s “Barber of Seville” is a better version than Paisiello’s.
But how do they stack up against Bugs Bunny’s The Rabbit of Seville?
No One of Consequence
I would think the new live-action Doctor Strangelove might prove to be interesting viewing. Though to be frank, I would rather prefer that were optional for us all.
-NOoC
Shane in SLC
Ian Richardson in the UK House of Cards used the whole breaking the fourth wall device much more effectively than Kevin Spacey in the US remake.
Downpuppy
@frosty: There’s more grit in the John Wayne version, more Mattie & Portis in the Bridges. What makes the later one better is the soundtrack. The loud orchestra from 1969 is a nuisance.
prostratedragon
@zhena gogolia: I agree on that one, Day is very good and it’s a witty script. And among other things, it continues the development of James Stewart’s problem with high places.
TF79
Peter Jackson’s LOTR was a wee bit better than Ralph Bakshi’s version (a very big wee)
Booger
@MoCaAce: SyFy Dune better than the 1984 version, not as good as the latest.
funlady75
@zhena gogolia: I see that u may be a TCM lover too.
caringandsensitive
@The Red Pen:
Didn’t have to Google. Nic Cage chewing scenery for the win(?)
zhena gogolia
@funlady75: Oh yes.
Kelly
@frosty: My Dad was a big John Wayne fan. My view of any John Wayne movie is thru a haze of nostalgia.
AliceBlue
My nomination for worst remake: the 1999 remake of The Haunting with Catherine Zeta-Jones and Owen Wilson. Just thinking about it makes my eye twitch.
caringandsensitive
@West of the Rockies:
Watch The Magnificent Seven. Which come to think of it is another one where the original is infinitely superior to the remake
Chris
@Shane in SLC:
Never seen either, but I’ve read a review that said the original was vastly better than the remake because it actually had something to say about Thatcher-era British politics, of which it was a reasonably accurate depiction; whereas the U.S. remake had very little to say other than “man, those corrupt politicians sure are corrupt, aren’t they?” and had a questionable grasp of the country’s politics in the first place.
mvr
Believe it or not, the 1941 version of the Maltese Falcon, which is the only one we remember, was the third version. https://scholars.wlu.ca/engl_faculty/12/ I suspect it was the best despite not having seen the other two. The book is great as well – lots of the dialogue comes from it iirc.
Chris
@caringandsensitive:
I liked both, but agree entirely.
Although speaking of that, the original falls into that category of “not technically a remake but totally a remake.” The Magnificent Seven was Seven Samurai remade as a Western, just like A Fistful Of Dollars was Yojimbo remade as a Western (and was then remade as a Prohibition-era gangster flick with Last Man Standing, bringing things full circle since they were all based on the Prohibition-era gangster novel Red Harvest).
mvr
Also, I really enjoyed My Own Private Idaho which was loosely based on Shakespeare’s Henry IV. Can’t really say that it is better.
Kelly
@caringandsensitive: Neither Magnificent Seven movies are better than Seven Samurai. (When I was a fresh movie snob discovering Seven Samurai at about 20 years old)
Ninedragonspot
@lowtechcyclist: An excellent question. I believe critical opinion is still divided on the issue. I can see the merits of both sides.
NeenerNeener
And then there’s the question that Sheldon asks Leonard on TBBT when he initially applies to be Sheldon’s room mate:
Sheldon: “Star Trek: Original Series or Next Generation?”
Leonard: “That’s a trick question. Original Series over Next Generation, but Picard over Kirk”.
Sheldon: “That is correct”.
My memory of the exact dialog is fuzzy but this is close enough for government work.
prostratedragon
@kalakal:
Isn’t A Shot in the Dark the one in which Peter Sellers started Clouseau’s goofy accent? I have the feeling, e.g. in the billiards scene, that George Sanders is scrambling in real time to stay in character, as if someone had sprung something on him.
Susan of Texas
@Craig: Assault On Precinct 13 was better than Rio Bravo.
kalakal
@prostratedragon:
Yes it is, he had a cod French accent in The Pink Panther but he first dialled it up to 11 in A Shot in the Dark. Sanders was hilarious trying to keep a straight face in that scene.
Steve in the ATL
Airplane! > Zero Hour!
Steve in the ATL
@prostratedragon: was that the one with “do you have a rheum?”
zhena gogolia
@Steve in the ATL: Zero Hour! is a damn good movie, though.
schrodingers_cat
I just saw the 2014 remake of Khoobsoorat (Beautiful). I like the original better but the new one had a better musical score than the original FWIW. Plus Fawad Khan is gorgeous. Ratna Pathak shines in whatever she is in.
Jo mai janti (If I knew, that I would be unhappy in love, I would tell everyone not to fall in love..)
Devdas has been made at least 4 times in Hindi. Its about a sensitive young man who can’t stand up to his parents to marry the woman he loves. Takes to drink to drown his sorrows. The original Bengali novel was written in 1917.
In the land of arranged marriage the story resonates across generations. There have been multiple versions of Devdas. 4 versions of Devdas in Hindi cinema that I know of, with lead actor playing Devdas
kalakal
@Steve in the ATL: that was The Pink Panther Strikes Again!
I’ve seen those films far too many times
prostratedragon
@Ihop: Not me, emphatcally. The new one is all surfaces, the old one, chiming bell in the cemetery and all, is about the chasm that can exust between surface and substance. And Tommy Crown in the old one is a techbro without a movement.
Comrade Scrutinizer
@UncleEbeneezer: Absolutely. The theatrical version of Manhunter had an exchange between Graham and Crawford talking about Dollarhyde that has gone missing from later versions:
A shame, because that sums up the movie (and especially Graham) nicely.
prostratedragon
@Ninedragonspot: Whither Mozart?
Tehanu
@funlady75: I loved Jane Eyre from the first time I read it at age 14. Unfortunately, Wide Sargasso Sea — which is great — totally ruined it for me, except that I still value it for introducing me to the awfulness of the Victorians.
Chris
Beloved eighties action shows remade for the present that sucked:
I really dislike the MacGyver remake, and it was almost all down to the politics. The original show in a lot of ways was the Leverage of its day, with its fondness for ripping stories out of the headlines and building an episode around them (the first episode I saw of the show had them helping Chinese pro-democracy students on the run after Tienanmen Square, for example). And doing so on a really liberal set of values – both the main character’s employer, and himself even more so.
There’s something fucked up about a version of MacGyver where the Phoenix Foundation is running black prison sites in the United States or where the only reason the main character doesn’t use a gun is because the other members of his team do it for him. Really makes me understand all the Trekkies furious over the normalization of Section 31.
My roommate liked the series and it grew on me in some particulars, but my God do I wish it wasn’t named MacGyver.
billcinsd
OK
Just look at that parking lot
The Addams Family sitcom with John Astin & Carolyn Jones was better than the movie adaptations. But the Charles Addams cartoons in the New Yorker were far better than the television series.
kalakal
Leading the “not a remake but…”
Deathtrap with Michael Caine and Christopher Reeve (1982) bears a remarkable resemblence to Sleuth (1972) with Lawrence Olivier and Michael Caine.In the second film Caine took the Olivier role and Reeve took the Caine role. They’re both really good, couldn’t say which is better after all this time
Splitting Image
Two originals that are far better than the remakes: Seven Chances (1925) versus The Bachelor (1999), and Bedazzled (1967) versus Bedazzled (2000). There ought to be a law against doing a remake of a comedy that succeeds because of the unique characteristics of the comedian who made the original. Chris O’Donnell is no Buster Keaton, and Brendan Fraser and Elizabeth Hurley aren’t Dudley Moore and Peter Cook. Liz Hurley especially is not Peter Cook. Nobody is. All of the Pink Panther movies that were made without Peter Sellers fall into this category too.
Two remakes that are better than the originals: Casino Royale (2006) versus Casino Royale (1967). I’m fond of the 1967 film, because it is a hot mess and has David Niven in it, but the remake is clearly better as a movie. It turns out that not having your star quit on you halfway through shooting is a big help. Buffy the Vampire Slayer worked much better as a TV series than it did as a movie. The theatrical film almost comes across as a rejected pilot for the series, which is a really bad look for a theatrical film.
zhena gogolia
@schrodingers_cat: So you’re saying the 2002 version is the best. 😄💜
NeenerNeener
Blame the Kazuis for that. Whedon was desperate for cash and sold them the rights. Fran Kazui then decided to take his script and turn it into Scooby Doo because she was afraid to go dark.
prostratedragon
@Chris: Haven’t seen the recent 7. The earlier one with Yul Brynner I think is quite good, while Seven Samurai is great. One theme it had that maybe the U.S. remakes lacked concerns an old code and its methods being made obsolete by technological change.
Chris
Beloved eighties action shows remade for the present that rocked:
I really liked the 2010 movie version of The A-Team. In this case, the much criticized fact that the team actually killed people (part of the fun of the original show being that despite all the trigger-happiness, almost nobody ever died) didn’t bother me. Unlike MacGyver, the reason nobody died on the original show wasn’t because anybody involved had a strong moral imperative against killing (as Vietnam veterans and a Special Forces unit, it’s a foregone conclusion that they have killed people before), it’s that the show was trying to keep their show “safe” and family-friendly, so everyone’s bullets just always missed. The movie replaces the original’s shtick with the standard action movie trope of “we only kill bad people and work really hard to prevent collateral damage,” which is fair enough.
What’s left is a really good eighties action movie that’s never quite as nuts as the original (it’s doubtful a 2010s action movie could’ve been), but largely recaptures the sense of zany fun and makes a pretty good origin story. I was bummed that it didn’t get sequels. Would’ve loved to live through a version of the early 2010s that had A-Team and Expendables movies being dueling franchises.
zhena gogolia
@billcinsd: “I have a very low threshold of death.”
I would never impugn The Day of the Jackal (1971). Edward Fox IS the Jackal!
dm
Twelve Monkeys was a Hollywoodified abortion of the magnificent La Jetee (12 minutes long) by Chris Marker. It would probably have been a good movie if I hadn’t seen its inspiration multiple times. Maybe I have enough distance, now, to try watching it again.
Glad someone got the Red Harvest -> Yojimbo -> A fistful of dollars -> something with Brad Pitt.
Do directors’ cuts count as appropriate for this thread? I saw Blade Runner very early in its release, and it was awful, ruined by a heavy-handed narration. Then saw it a few years later in re-release, and I was amazed how different the film was.
kalakal
There have been 3 US attempts to remake Fawlty Towers. The first never got past the pilot, the second Amanda’s had the daring* idea of leaving the Basil Fawlty ( John Cleese) character out and was awful, the 3rd Payne’s was also terrible. The writer’s just didn’t get the point of the humour
*idiotic
kalakal
@zhena gogolia: Hear, hear!
Nicodemus Boffin
Remakes Greater than Great Originals:
1. “His Girl Friday,” 1940 > “The Front Page,” 1931
2. see #1
3. see #1
Chris
@billcinsd:
The entire original movie/book, in classic Forsyth fashion, is a build-up to the moment where the perfect crime is ruined by the most mundane cultural mistranslation. And there was just no moment like that in the remake movie.
NeenerNeener
Which reminds me…I watched 12 Monkeys the movie and thought it was decent, but I was depressed by the SyFy series version because they never made any progress. I think I quit after season 2 because it became obvious that they were just going to drag the series out as long as SyFy was willing to fund it.
tam1MI
@Chris: I agree with you on this, and I like LEVERAGE: REDEMPTION a bit more because of it. But I can’t really say that either the original or the remake is better, I think they are both equally good.
frosty
@Kelly:
John Wayne had a hell of a lot of good movies. Don’t fret about it.
tam1MI
@Craig:Rio Bravo better than El Dorado. I love the musical interlude with Dean Martin and Rickey Nelson. Plus Angie Dickinson❤️
But EL DORADO had Robert Mitchum!
prostratedragon
@kalakal: Thanks for the confirmation!
Jack Canuck
@Craig:
Yeah, fair. The last few episodes kind of fell off a cliff with the whole ‘let’s abandon everything and become primitives now’ idea, that’s for sure. But really right up until then it was so good! Not flawless, but on average such a high level of writing and acting.
prostratedragon
@Steve in the ATL: I believe so.
frosty
@Just look at that parking lot: Wednesday lives up to the original TV show. Although I really dislike the actor playing Gomez. The others are OK.
ETA Especially Uncle Fester who graduated from the Zurich Institution for the Criminally Insane
mayim
@zhena gogolia:
The Joan Hickson Miss Marple programs have become a big feature of what I call my “stop the world, I need to jump off” list ~ whether sick or retreating from the current state of the world ~ so slow is good in that context.
Also on the list: M*A*S*H <t.v. series, rather than the original movie>, assorted Star Trek episodes [from across the various series, as all had excellent episodes and also some real clunkers], and the British game show Pointless [a gentle, fun cross between Jeopardy and Family Feud, where contestants are looking for the least common right answers].
NeenerNeener
Nice to know I’m not alone. I like him in other things…just not that role.
zhena gogolia
@mayim:
Yes, I agree. We enjoyed them thoroughly. We also use Inspector Morse and Lewis for that purpose.
tam1MI
If we are counting sequels…
ALIENS is a better movie than ALIEN.
Come at me. ;)
Captain C
@Chris: Dame N, who turned me in to the Leverage ‘verse, approves mightily of this take.
NotMax
A tad more $$ (after all, it is a bigger unit), this Oster brand toaster with extra wide, extra long slots is versatile and does what it’s supposed to do very well.
No screens, no apps, can handle bagels and non standard shaped artisanal bread slices like a champ.
BellyCat
Girl with the Dragon Tattoo, Swedish version > American version, by far.
schrodingers_cat
@zhena gogolia: That’s the only one I have seen.
NotMax
#160 – wrong thread.
Mwa culpa.
NotMax
Swedish Wallender series, great. British Wallender series, not so much.
billcinsd
@zhena gogolia: but I have heard it criticized as exceedingly slow
prostratedragon
@frosty:
Luís Guzm&a;n? Haven’t seen this series, but a) I generally like him, although b) he’s not wht I’d expect for Gomez Addams. Would be an excellent Boris Badenov. Liked both Astin and Raul Julia as Gomez.
CaseyL
There have been so many versions of “The Three Musketeers,” but to my mind the 1973 version, the one Richard Lester directed, is the best.
The 1993 version moved me not at all. The acting was shallow and facile compared to the ’73. The version I did not see, but wish I had, came out in 2023: it was made in France and had a French perspective.
wrog
The original TTSS has Patrick Stewart as Karla.
He has one (1) scene and zero (0) lines, but he still completely steals it.
Nothing is ever going to top that.
wrog
Also the Lost in Space reboot (2018) was arguably better than the original (1965)… in general, at least.
However, if we just take the first seven or eight episodes of the original show by themselves
(the ones where there’s an actual coherent ongoing plot line
and they’re vaguely trying to do actual SF
rather than outdo the (concurrent) Batman show on campiness,
the ones which the entire reboot series was something of an homage to,
and which are way better than people give them credit for),
… then it’s a real contest.
Mr. Bemused Senior
@wrog: yes, and the conclusion in Smiley’s People where he again is silent is a masterpiece.
Juju
@Dorothy A. Winsor: My favorite version of “Pride and Prejudice” is the Elizabeth Garvie, David Rintoul version. The 1995 version is my second favorite.
Kristine
@Mr. Bemused Senior: late to the party, but heartily agree.
Kristine
@Juju:
Oh yes. It was my first P&P and it’s my favorite by miles. Elizabeth Garvie was so good as Eliza. And Rintoul’s playing Darcy as so tightly wrapped made his happiness and relief at the end more profound. He became a different man.
Kristine
@Mr. Bemused Senior: Stewart was marvelous.
Randal Sexton
My couple pennies: The two versions of the Producers. I actually love both of them, but I am banned from watching either of them when my wife is around, on account a tad few too many viewings. Also, one of my most embarrassing memories of trying to explain to an Israeli how there is this funny movie about Nazis. I was not persuasive, and pretty sure they thought I was probably a nazi. Oh Well.
columbusqueen
@Melancholy Jaques: Absolutely agree with all your choices.
I may be in the minority, but I thought the ’05 Pride & Prejudice was atrocious garbage. Totally miscast across the board, badly costumed with odd settings, & a complete botch in rendering both the story & period. The ’95 BBC version, by contrast, is the gold standard on every level.
The TV spinoff that improved on the original show was Frasier-better cast, better writing, & better setup. Cheers was a lot more hit or miss, & it jumped the shark when Kristie Alley came on. She had the comic timing of a drunk elephant stomping over the savanna, which killed any laughs IMHO.
columbusqueen
@CaseyL: RIP Richard Chamberlain, the most elegant version of Aramis, along with many other fine performances.
NotMax
@columbusqueen
Adieu, Dr. Kildare.
columbusqueen
@Kelly: Not a huge Wayne fan, but I adore The Cowboys. What a great script & cast, especially Roscoe Lee Browne as the cook. And Wayne’s performance as Wil Anderson had a rueful, thoughtful quality that was far more interesting than any blowhard heroics.
sempronia
Scorsese’s The Departed was far worse than the Hong Kong movie Infernal Affairs (無間道) that it was based on. I quite enjoyed the HK movie, but The Departed was totally unwatchable because of the characters’ attitude and language.
prostratedragon
@columbusqueen, @NotMax:
Also Raoul Wallenberg and David Burton. (Disregard the unsuitable voiceover.)
Splitting Image
@columbusqueen:
One thing that bothered me about the 2005 version was that Mr. and Mrs. Bennet put me in mind of Denver Pyle as Uncle Jesse and Marjorie Main as Ma Kettle, which are American references not English ones. I think most of the actors do OK with the script they are given, but the director completely misunderstands the idea of English country gentry and therefore misses the entire point of the book’s conflict.
People who praise the 2005 version often say that they like that version of Darcy because he is more shy than proud, but if you write him that way then it isn’t really “Pride and Prejudice” anymore. It’s right there in the title.
1995 version for me, although I will happily watch the 1980 version as well. It does a great job and includes a few scenes that the 1995 version leaves out.
Seanly
I like both Bosch shows but the original >> legacy. Also, they are launching a spin-off for the new character Det Ballard (she will show up in the S3 a bit). Titus Welliver negotiated only a handful of appearances in her show (thinking he’d have a S4 of Legacy) but then they canceled Legacy.
Also, Leverage > Redemption – this one is much closer. Stories are still decent but it just feels a little lesser. On John Roger’s blueske account, he talked about a new season but I don’t have any idea of the timing.
Both of the continued shows obviously have a lower budget and it shows.
Seanly
Also, if anyone is looking for new shows, I highly recommend Peacock’s “Poker Face” with Natasha Lyonne & AMC’s “Dark Winds”. Poker Face follows the Columbo howcatchem format but she’s a lovable loser kinda like The Rockford Files. They’ve mentioned the show being a homage to Columbo. 2nd season premiers on Peacock in May. It’s also got a tinge of comedy.
Dark Winds stars Zahn McClarnon as a lieutenant in the Navajo Tribal Police in the 1970’s. 3rd season just started. Previous seasons might be streaming on some other platforms. If you’re not famaliar with McClarnon, he’s a fabulous actor – he really shines in the Westworld S2 episode “Kiksuya”
Also, I may have a “I’m way too old for this, but here we are” crush on Jessica Matten who plays Bernadette Manuelito in Dark Winds.
Juju
@columbusqueen: I agree with everything you’ve stated in this comment, except for the ‘95 BBC P&P version to be the Gold standard. The Bennetts would never have had wallpaper. It would have been too expensive for them on their income. I hadn’t thought of Fraiser, but you are right, it was consistently better than Cheers. I couldn’t stand Cheers after the addition of Kirstie Alley.
RAS
@dm: Loved the Syfy 12 Monkeys. It’s an unfairly ignored gem. Very complex time travel plotting which actually makes sense if you dig deeply into it.
Saw Blade Runner 11 times when it came out. Love the narration. The fact the Harrison Ford hated doing it really gives it the proper vibe for Deckard. I’d be happy with the original theatrical release if it cut to black when the elevator doors close. No travesty of a green ending the studio wanted tacked on.
Chris
@Seanly:
Don’t forget that it’s also The Fugitive.
WaterGirl
@RAS: Welcome!