Will some nice lawyer please talk me off the ledge?
BREAKING: Chief Justice John Roberts temporarily stayed the district court’s order setting a deadline for Kilmar Abrego Garcia’s return from El Salvador, ordering the man’s lawyers to file a response by 5 p.m. Tuesday to the Trump admin’s request that SCOTUS block the district court’s order.
— Chris Geidner (@chrisgeidner.bsky.social) April 7, 2025 at 4:07 PM
This is the case where a Maryland father of a U.S. citizen who was lawfully in this country and married to a U.S. citizen was abducted by ICE and flown to a foreign gulag due to an “administrative error.” When lawyers tried to get him back, the administration basically replied, “LOL, too late, go ask the foreign dictator we paid off to run our extrajudicial gulag.”
On Friday, U.S. District Judge Paula Xinis told the administration to bring Kilmar Abrego Garcia back from the El Salvador gulag by midnight tonight. The DOJ appealed. The U.S. Court of Appeals (4th Circuit) panel unanimously denied the DOJ’s request for an emergency stay of that order today.
And now this from Roberts.
What the fucking fuck, guys?
ETA: This is what a brave lawyer looks like.
NEW: Yesterday, the Justice Department sent armed marshals to warn former U.S. pardon attorney Liz Oyer not to disclose internal DOJ information during her Senate testimony.
Today, Oyer is speaking out to condemn the DOJ’s actions and defend the rule of law.
— Democracy Docket (@democracydocket.com) April 7, 2025 at 4:47 PM
Respect, ma’am.
Comrade Scott calls me the ultimate lurker – Hands Off! – Denver
Jackie
We suspected Garcia would NOT be back on American soil by 11:59 ET tonight.
I don’t understand legalese enough to understand Roberts’ reasoning.
Scout211
From Law Dork
WTFGhost
We knew this would happen – all they need is sufficient political cover, and they’ll okay anything.
WTFGhost
@Jackie: Oh, there’s no real reasoning – they’re just issuing a stay and waiting for an appropriate time to (sexual metaphor, elided) Trump off in public.
Remember, this is FOREIGN POLICY and even the SCOTUS recognized that Biden had authority over foreign policy, after forcing him to wait a good many months.
NYCMT
The gentlest theory I have is that somebody told Roberts that ICE wasn’t going to be able to comply – no efforts expended pending the appeals decisions – by midnight tonight, and Roberts is giving Homan a fig leaf heads up overnight. And that there are four other Republican Supreme Court judges who don’t give a shit about habeas.
Anonymous at Work
@Scout211: tl;Dr is going to be that Biden v. Texas rules in favor of Biden and against Fifth Circuit radicals that the President conducts foreign policy, including negotiations with foreign countries. Basically, a district court judge can’t tell the President to negotiate with another country to achieve a given policy outcome.
What remains to be seen is whether there are remedies available because of admission of error.
Betty Cracker
@NYCMT: But why couldn’t ICE comply? Seems like the U.S. could send a military plane to El Salvador to collect Garcia at a fraction of the cost it takes to ferry Trump between self-branded golf courses. It’s in Central America, not Australia.
Captain C
@Jackie: “Orange man dictator. Do what he want. Give us nice toys. I iz legal genius.”
Belafon
@Anonymous at Work: It shouldn’t come down to that since the order is on what the government did with someone under its jurisdiction, but they may use that as a window.
Anonymous at Work
@Betty Cracker: US can fly plane there. Then what? US would have to negotiate release with foreign leader outside US jurisdiction. Only alternative would be judge ordering money appropriated by Congress go to some other task, such as bribing the leader to release US national.
Joy in FL
Since this an open thread, I wanted to publicize the online Briefing about the judicial election in North Carolina. I’ll assume you all know about it. I’m guessing they have a lot of ballots to verify, and I saw that a person didn’t have a to be a resident in NC to help do that. So I signed up.
The link below is to sign up for the Zoom at 6 pm eastern this evening. We do not want to lose that judge that was elected in November!
EDIT: I clicked the link I had in this post to check that it worked, and the page the link sent me to said the event is at capacity. So I removed the link. I think the fact that the event is at capacity is a good thing.
Anonymous at Work
@Belafon: Remedies is an entire separate course in law school for a reason. Solutions aren’t always so easy.
Tim C.
The calmer folks on BlueSky are saying this is expected and even normal. The fact they want briefs on it by tomorrow afternoon is the important bit. They intend to rule quickly, and that doesn’t bode well for the Trump administration’s position.
Yes, I might be very very very wrong. I hope not.
Nukular Biskits
What the actual fuck.
Seriously.
There are no moral, ethical or constitutional grounds for this stay.
Martin
@Betty Cracker: Because the point of this program is to not comply with US laws that conservatives think are stupid and to demonstrate that they can get away with not complying.
If the admin complies with the court orders, then it establishes that the court, and not Trump set the rules. The point of the exercise, as with the tariffs, is that Trump sets the rules and everyone conforms to those rules.
lowtechcyclist
It wasn’t foreign policy that put Abrego Garcia in a hellhole prison in El Salvador. It was a massive violation of his Constitutional rights by the Executive Branch of the U.S. Government.
(AFAIAC, the same holds true for the rest of the deportees unjustly imprisoned in El Salvador. But Abrego Garcia’s case is the one that’s before SCOTUS now.)
If this SCOTUS lets the ‘oopsie, too bad, it’s foreign policy now, nothing we can do’ argument win the day, they’ll be discarding their last remaining shred of legitimacy AFAIAC.
WTFGhost
@Betty Cracker: ICE couldn’t comply because (I speculate) there wasn’t enough time to set up a flight, by the time the SCOTUS appeal was filed.
There is an argument that Trump can’t be ordered to negotiate with El Salvador, but this isn’t negotiation – this is “send us back this guy we’re paying you to imprison.”
Once El Salvador refuses, at that point, Trump could appeal that no one can force him to negotiate for a given policy outcome. However, until that time, we sent them product, one product is recalled, they must send it back to us due to licensing concerns, given the contents of the product weren’t wiped prior to sending. It happens all the time, it’s normal business.
If Trump can’t “recall” a prisoner, then he’s probably committed high crimes and misdemeanors, which won’t matter unless it’s a pretty (or handsome) white person whose whole life is being ruined because they can’t take the SAT and won’t get into an Ivy… this year.
But this isn’t a question of negotiation – not yet.
H.E.Wolf
@Joy in FL:
I’m happy to see that the event is at full capacity.
If you signed up, and if you can, please let us know how the Zoom meeting went. Thanks!
Martin
@Nukular Biskits: This is the legal system putting compliance to the legal system ahead of all other concerns – as they always do. The machine must always be preserved regardless of outcome.
From that perspective this is not surprising. See also: Congressional Democrats always yielding to norms and institutional preservation regardless of outcome.
Everyone but Trump plays this game and Trump exploits that constantly.
Betty Cracker
@Anonymous at Work: It’s my understanding that the U.S. government is paying the corrupt dictator of El Salvador many millions of dollars to run its extrajudicial gulag. The current secretary of state retweeted that corrupt dictator’s “lol, too late!” comment when a judge ordered the planes carrying the abducted people to El Salvador to be turned back. The current secretary of state publicly thanked the corrupt dictator for his “friendship.” So, I’m thinking it wouldn’t be a difficult negotiation. If they wanted Garcia back, that is.
Martin
@WTFGhost: ICE is sending flights every day, and returning with empty planes, so they better not try that excuse.
Jay
@lowtechcyclist:
If the White Supremacy Court upholds this, then guess what, nobody has any “rights” in America.
Elizabelle
Dang. Clem Burke, Blondie’s drummer on all their albums, has died at 70. Cancer.
That band had/has some style.
Betty Cracker
@Jay: You said it. The “argument” the DOJ made in opposing the stay applies to everyone, citizen or not.
@Martin: Exactly right, and well said.
gluon1
Prof. Steve Vladeck is one of the experts on the Shadow Docket–he literally wrote the book–and suggests that this kind of administrative stay was expected and is often followed by a complete loss for the government.
Martin
@Betty Cracker: It wouldn’t. The issue surrounds who gets to tell the executive how to fix that now that it has become a foreign policy issue. This was the type of loophole that GWB exploited with Gitmo detainees. If you can make your enemy stateless, the US legal system will determine they have no authority over them, so you can do whatever you want. Weaponizing the jurisdiction system knowing the courts won’t ever punish you for doing it or stepping outside of it to remedy it.
lowtechcyclist
@Jay:
No argument from me on that point. All they have to do is get you on a flight to that prison before anyone knows you’re gone, and you can wave goodbye to your rights as your flight takes you over the Gulf of Whatever.
John Revolta
Don’t ask me, I’m still trying to figure out why we’re offshoring prisoners when offshoring manufacturing is supposed to be a big no-no. What, building prisons is harder than building new factories?
Scout211
The reporting is $6 million for one year for 300 prisoners. Several news stories called it “pennies on the dollar.” It’s the art of the deal!
But since this administration doesn’t seem to have a problem lying, maybe the $6 mil is only the first payment.
Betty Cracker
@gluon1: Thank you. I am hoping for the best.
lowtechcyclist
@Elizabelle:
They did indeed! I was listening to my Parallel Lines LP just the other night.
From the BBC tribute to him (link below), it looks like Deborah Harry and Chris Stein are still together after all these years, which is impressive in that world.
Blondie drummer Clem Burke dies, aged 70
Miki
Shadow Hearing LIVE right now.
WTFGhost
@Martin: If they didn’t have a flight to El Salvador scheduled (or, if they filed right after it left), they could “honestly” (but in bad faith) say that they didn’t have time to arrange a flight.
This is what’s wrong with the courts – Trump is acting in bad faith, because he hadn’t gotten a refusal from El Salvador already, or otherwise presented a reason why making a simple request to “carry out our contract, specifically, return this one person back to us,” is negotiation.
If he says that there’s no mechanism for return, he has to admit, under oath, that he deliberately put US persons beyond his reach. If there is, he should invoke it, which does not involve any form of negotiation.
He should not receive a stay, not even a “let us think about this, for at least 24 hours,” stay, because his actions are clearly in bad faith – he’s deliberately trying to flout the court that ordered him to take a non-negotiation action, without presenting evidence that negotiation is required.
Geminid
The case of Rumeysa Ozturk, the Tufts University grad student whwas snatchrled off a Massachusetts street 11 days ago by CE agents l, was to be heard in a federal court in Vermont today. I haven’t found a report on the hearing yet.
The feds will probably try to slow the case down with jurisdiction arguments. Ms. Rumeysa is being held in a Louisiana prison and that’s where the government wants the case heard. Her attorneys argued that the case should be heard in Vermont where Ozturk was held overnight, and last week a federal judge in Massachusetts transferred jurisdiction there.
Ruckus
@Martin:
BINGO!
We have a democracy. Sort of.
Some days it takes a lot to even make it appear like a democracy.
This is some of those days.
Shitforbrains thinks that he is, if not god, as close as it gets. He may not have thought this his first time around but I’d bet good money that he does now.
And he has the backing of a number of “citizens” to act like a complete and utter ass.
WaterGirl
@lowtechcyclist: That’s my take, also.
WTFGhost
@John Revolta: Duh. Because George W. showed you could more easily violate people’s rights if they weren’t in America, with access to the courts and lawyers.
@gluon1: I remain of the opinion that this sort of stay, where the government is acting in bad faith, is not appropriate. I *get* the argument that an administrative stay, then raining down sulfur, is the usual response, but, this is not a usual court, and, this is not a usual case. Once bad faith can be assumed, the courts need to take action, or, they are denying justice and wholeness to the victims, in deference to the perpetrators.
NYCMT
@Betty Cracker:
“It is the good faith opinion of counsel that preparation for compliance with such an outrageous judicial order in advance of the pending ruling of the Circuit’s panel was unnecessary and conceded far too much to the basis of the unlawful order when the remedy provided by timely compliance after all avenues of appeal were exhausted was available! No I do not gargle Stephen Miller’s balls I am a Columbia university school of law man.”
Steve LaBonne
Fucking asshole Roberts is hoping the poor guy will get killed in prison and the case will be moot.
Steve LaBonne
@lowtechcyclist: To be fair, it was already a microscopic shred.
Deputinize America
No more “norms” or civility – SCOTUS has forfeited all entitlement to quiet enjoyment of life’s little pleasures.
Anybody know which restaurants Alito, Roberts, Gorsuch like to go to? Asking for friends….
ascap_scab
If Roberts allows the permant dissappearance of this guy to a foreign gulag, Trump can dissappear anyone. Liz Cheney? Yup. Joe Biden? In a heartbeat. Me, you? Yessiree.
We are now living in a failed nation.
Deputinize America
@Steve LaBonne:
My suspicion is that’s he’s dead already.
japa21
TBH, I am concerned whether or not Garcia can be returned, at least alive. Do we even know if he is alive at this point. And yes, I am a downer.
oldgold
The DoJ’s contention that once an individual is placed in a gulag in El Siberiador they cannot retrieve them is a compelling argument for why these individuals should be given due process before placing them in that hell hole.
WTFGhost
@Geminid: This is another case where I feel the courts should start weighing in on bad faith. There’s no reason the government should receive special privileges, like choice of venue, and stuff like that. There should be a judge ordering release, stayed for 24 hours in case the government provides proper habeus pleadings (I hope that’s the right legal term), and *only* if those pleadings are correct, should they be given provisional authority to hold the prisoner, and start arguing about venue and other BS.
@lowtechcyclist: Well, they used to call it the Gulf of Mexico, so once you were over it, you felt like you were in a more lawless, less free, area, but, Trump renamed it to Gulf of America to really drive home “much more lawless, much less free”. Meh. Can’t argue with the man’s accidental soothsaying.
oldgold
In connection with relationship between the Short-Fingered Vulgarian and Laura Loomis, the generally cautious Josh Marshall goes where few have dared to venture.
https://bsky.app/profile/joshtpm.bsky.social/post/3lmajqeg3a22w
Jay
@Steve LaBonne:
@Deputinize America:
@japa21:
The US deportee’s are kept segregated from the El Salvadorian and other prisoners, and there is so far, zero evidence that any of the US deportee’s are criminals.
Jay
@oldgold:
You know, that’s not how that works in Trumplandia.
Joy in FL
@H.E.Wolf: I will do that, especially if they still need people to do phone calls. (referring to comment #18)
Since I have your attention, I want to let you know that you inspired me to do Postcards in small amounts (instead of no amounts). A few at a time is better than lots that I don’t ever sign up to do : )
lowtechcyclist
@Steve LaBonne:
All too true.
Geminid
@WTFGhost: I guess well get to see what happened at today’s hearing before too long. Ms. Rumeysa’s case is getting a lot of coverage on Massachetts and Vermont media sites.
I talk with a Turkish guy on “sosyal medya” from time to time, and he said Rumeysa’s detention was widely covered in Turkiye. It sounded like people there are pretty hot about it.
David Collier-Brown
@ascap_scab:
… using the same laws that let his predecessors imprison US citizens of Japanese descent during WWII. Including George Takei, of Star Trek fame.
They Call Me Noni
These past few years whenever I read or watch anything about egregious SC decisions my mind goes to the The Pelican Brief.
trollhattan
@Nukular Biskits:
Umpire Johnny can’t find his lucky ball/strike coin.
Timill
@ascap_scab: Worse than that: in those cases there is no court order that they not be deported. In Abrego Garcia’s case, there is.
Geminid
@They Call Me Noni: Have you read John Grisham’s The Painted House? It’s not a legal thriller like The Pelican Brief.
The story is set in 1950s rural Mississippi and is fairly short for a Grisham novel. I thought it was pretty good.
BellyCat
What’s the secret to watching embedded blue sky videos from an iPhone?
What’s the secret to watching embedded blue sky video links from an iPhone?
(I keep getting messages that the browser format is not supported.)
Elizabelle
The fucker has fired another top admiral, Shosana Chatfield. Fourth woman he has forced out.
WaPost breaking news:
U.S. admiral at NATO fired, latest ouster in Trump military purge
Vice Adm. Shoshana Chatfield is one of at least nine senior military leaders — and the fourth woman — removed since Trump’s return to Washington.
I hate Trump. Hate him. And Hegseth.
Trump has the tiniest and most flaccid of little penises, with tiny shriveled little balls. He is unintelligent and has no moral courage whatsoever.
And then he elevates these fakeass, horrible, unethical women, like Kristi Noem and Pam Bondi.
Hate him. And Conservatives for Accountability? Tell us another joke.
Scout211
I have no problem viewing the videos using iOS, but not in an embed posted here on balloon-juice. I have to click on the embed and it then links to the video in the original BlueSky post where it’s viewable.
Also, I don’t use Safari. I use Chrome for iOS, although I’m not sure if that makes a difference.
ETA:from Apple discussion:
and
Jay
https://nitter.poast.org/dougblandry/status/1909256707361911212#m
@Deltaone is a bot run by “Walter Bloomburg”, also a bot, but one that has some “heft” on “financial” Twitter, run out of a bot factory run by Russian actor Yura Borisov.
Jay
@BellyCat:
On both a Dell Laptop and an IPhone, some BlueSky video embeds open and play in the embed, some you have to click to BlueSky to view them, and this is across all blogs I read.
It is either something in the manner in which the vid has been embedded, or it is something in the manner it was loaded to BlueSky.
I get the same hit and miss results with Instagram embeds and sometimes even the link to Instagram is dead.
BellyCat
iPhone 8. iOS 16.7.1. No vpn. Still doesn’t play in Bluesky. I fear my cute little phone that fits in my side pants pocket is too old to host the latest software needed? Red Queen Effect hits just in time for Tari-FFS on a replacement. Ack!
sentient ai from the future
We are putatively paying bukele *spit* to house/torture/enslave this man, so it beggars belief that we couldn’t do something. The lower court judge said “you got Kristi noem out of there, you can get this guy out if you want” and my feeling is that the court would simply need evidence of some kind of effort at release to be satisfied.
And the 4th circuit wasn’t even having it. Including one of the especially whackaloon rightwingers.
I think this is Roberts, who previously was trying to assert the power of the court, saying cut the shit.
But there might just be five votes for helicopter rides, dunno.
Elizabelle
@BellyCat: My sympathies. Maybe you can get a refurbished late model phone, that’s already in the country?
I have an iPhone 13, and it is a bit too big for my pockets. Liked the smaller versions.
Scout211
@BellyCat: Yeah, we had to replace my husband’s iPhone 8 because Apple stopped updating it. We bought him a refreshed iPhone SE
20242022 (3rd Gen) on Amazon and it’s the same size as the 8, still with a home button. It’s great and can update to the latest software. It’s the last phone the they will make in that size and with a home button..Baud
@sentient ai from the future:
We should have left her.
Jay
@Baud:
she did her MAGA cosplay fash shoot in front of a cage, ( yes, that’s not a cell) of actual Salvadoran MS-13 Gang members, wearing a $50K Rolex. Too bad nobody had the foresight to slip the guards a few $K to “accidentally” unlock the door.
NotMax
@Bellycat
Stone knives and bearskins.
//
Mr. Bemused Senior
@NotMax: do iPhones have mnemonic memory circuits?
NotMax
@Scout211
Ain’t nuthin’ wrong with Android.
;)
Miki
@NotMax: Tru dat.
Scout211
Thems fightin’ words!Sure, sure.
Anne Laurie
My ancient Android won;t show embeds unless I buy additionnal minutes in advance…
They Call Me Noni
@Geminid: I don’t think I’ve read that one, but have read a few Grisham books before they were movies. I’ll have to check it out.
RaflW
@Martin: “If the admin complies with the court orders, then it establishes that the court, and not Trump set the rules.”
Therein lies the rub for CJ Roberts and, possibly, for Barrett and/or Kavanaugh. The Supremes may still want to give Trump even more power, but if they weaken the courts, what does Scotus have left? Swearing ins and some all-expense paid trips by ‘donors’?
Seems like they need to retain some power or they will cease to matter. (IANAL and all that disclaimery stuff. Maybe this isn’t the shredding of the Constitution that I think it is.)
Wizened_guy
@WTFGhost: It’s not foreign policy, despire what DOJ claims. Garcia remains a detainee of the U.S. extra-judicially held in El Salvador. This is a straight up case of due process under U.S. constitution.
Betty Cracker
@Anne Laurie: Smart to use a burner! ;-)
RaflW
UGH
Justice Jackson ends her dissent with a very, very important point
Jay
@Wizened_guy:
It’s so cute that you think that still applies.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlEo8PQChG4
NotMax
@Anee Laurie
Honey badgerWiFi don’t care.;)
WaterGirl
@BellyCat: Guessing that your iOS is too old?
Miki
Welp, the Shadow Congress Hearing on The Rule of Law today was just what I expected – fucking awesome, and just what we need. Lots of harkback to both Impeachments and the January 6 hearing. Judge as you will Sen Schiff but the man is a patriot. The witnesses – amazing attorneys both inside and out of the DOJ – were incredibly brave and honorable and patriotic.
Lots of folks here and out there have supported the concept of a Shadow Government, like the UK is supposed to have. Welp, today’s hearing was a first step. IMO, it worked.
I loved it.
frosty
@Elizabelle: I saw Blondie in 2019 at the theater where I used to go on dates to see movies in high schoole. Burke, Harry, and Stein were all there and all sounding pretty good, although Harry had to rearrange some of the melodies to avoid the high notes. Burke was solid. RIP
ETA: The band definitely had style. They went from girl group songs to one of the first raps to disco and on to other things. One of my favorites.
RaflW
Apparently there’s some part of the shadow docket trashfire that, if the White House actually complies, may make some difference:
I still think the Trump Admin will whisk people away, and see if anyone then files habeas when it gets discovered, and still pulls a “we can’t get ’em back”
(emphasis added, though Stephen Miller is going to pretend he didn’t read it)
Elizabelle
@Miki: How do we watch that? Is the Shadow Congress video streaming online?
frosty
@Elizabelle: @BellyCat: I have an iPhone 13 Mini running iOS 18. It fits (barely) in the watch pocket of my Levi’s, without a case. My last one, an iPhone SE (1st gen ca. 2016) was a couple of millimeters smaller and fit *with* a case.
Yes, that’s my main criteria for a phone. The little LG dumb flip phone fit perfectly all these many years ago.
Betty Cracker
@Miki: Will look for it on YouTube. Thanks for the report!
Miki
@Elizabelle: Try this – https://www.youtube.com/live/iy-4siUPHkw?si=L7cfBSQR8BG1ZzgX
cmorenc
Hope at least 5 Justices realize that if a President’s “foreign policy” is sufficient justification to override due process rights of a rightful legal resident wrongly expelled from the US, then it is sufficient to override the due process rights of a citizen mistakenly expelled without any contestable court process. They can pick anyone up and fly them to other arbitrary countries and conditions.
Miki
@Betty Cracker: This is it – https://www.youtube.com/live/iy-4siUPHkw?si=L7cfBSQR8BG1ZzgX
Sally
@Anonymous at Work: He is such a genius at negotiating hostages out of Russia, surely it would be easy to get someone out of a “friendly”. In reality, trump has any amount of leverage to have Mr. Garcia returned. He just couldn’t be bothered, and won’t admit a mistake.
Sally
@Martin: That’s what I thought.
Ivan X
Used iPhone SE 3rd gen (home button, simpler), or iPhone 13 mini (similar dimensions but brighter larger edge to edge screen, better camera, somewhat thicker), are the last small phones they appear to be going to make, and they’ll both probably run the next couple of versions of iOS before getting put out to pasture, so, 2-3 years more of usability. They both have the same chip inside them so they’ll both likely be usable for the same length of time as far as compatibility goes.
People just don’t buy the small ones, apparently, despite a substantial minority clearly wanting them.
lowtechcyclist
@cmorenc:
Sotomayor pointed that out today, so they are aware of it. The question is, will they do anything about it?
rikyrah
Just enraging😠😠
MrPug
There are far too few examples of humans with balls having no balls and far too many examples of humans with no balls having balls standing up to this administration. I’m beginning to rethink the whole phrase “grow some balls” given that the people with them seem to be doing nothing to fight Trump.
gluon1
https://www.stevevladeck.com/p/140-the-disturbing-myopia-of-trump