So it begins.
I bring you two views of *Judge Boasberg’s opinion find the probably cause exists to find the government is in criminal contempt: Ben Wittes at Lawfare and Marc Elias at Democracy Docket.
*Chief judge of the District of Columbia district court, and former head of the FISA court.
First, a short summary from Ben Wittes at Lawfare.
So today, Judge Boasberg dropped a 46-page opinion finding “that probable cause exists to find the Government in criminal contempt” and that “The Constitution does not tolerate willful disobedience of judicial orders—especially by officials of a coordinate branch who have sworn an oath to uphold it” and that “To permit such officials to freely ‘annul the judgments of the courts of the United States’ would not just ‘destroy the rights acquired under those judgments’; it would make ‘a solemn mockery’ of ‘the constitution itself’” and finding, as well, that it does not matter that the Supreme Court later vacated the order that the government previously violated because “it is a foundational legal precept that every judicial order ‘must be obeyed’—no matter how ‘erroneous’ it ‘may be’—until a court reverses it,” and finding that this means that Judge Boasberg’s order to turn those planes around, wrong as it may have been in terms of the venue of the district court that should have been entering it, was law unto those government officials who ignored it and failed to give those deportees any semblance of due process.
I desperately hope that this isn’t all kabuki, but even if it is, I would rather see it play out as though the Rule of Law still exists in the United States of America.
And now, a 15-minute explanation of what happens next from Marc Elias at Democracy Docket.
Now, the full article from Benjamin Wittes.
Lawfare: The Situation: Vindicating the Semblance of Due Process
Ben Wittes writes:
The Situation on Monday ruminated on the tools in the hands of the two judges seeking to hold the Trump administration accountable for deporting people to Salvadoran prisons.
Today, one of those judges took his shot.
In case you’ve forgotten the J.G.G. case in a week of market turmoil, tariffs, and intense media interest in one man sent to a Salvadoran gulag on March 15, this is the case about those other guys sent to the same Salvadoran gulag on that same day—the ones sent under the president’s Alien Enemies Act proclamation and put on a pair of planes that were mysteriously not turned around when federal judge James Boasberg ordered that they be turned around so that the people on them could get some semblance of due process.
Remember that case? It has been a while—all of nine days since the Supreme Court vacated Judge Boasberg’s order because the case should have been brought in a different court and under a different statute even though the court also said that if the administration is going to deport people under the Alien Enemies Act, they are entitled to some semblance of due process.
But it turns out that federal district judges have long memories, particularly when you go behind their backs and pack two planeloads full of deportees before you issue your proclamation, conceal from them that you are planning to deport these people, stall for time, ignore their orders, transfer the detainees to foreign custody hours after they order you not to do so, and then stonewall them for a month about basic information about the flights, the preparation for the flights, the diplomatic arrangements, and your own legal arguments—even as you release pictures of the planes, mock the courts on social media, and show videos of the detainees, all of whom still have had no semblance of due process.
So today, Judge Boasberg dropped a 46-page opinion finding “that probable cause exists to find the Government in criminal contempt” and that “The Constitution does not tolerate willful disobedience of judicial orders—especially by officials of a coordinate branch who have sworn an oath to uphold it” and that “To permit such officials to freely ‘annul the judgments of the courts of the United States’ would not just ‘destroy the rights acquired under those judgments’; it would make ‘a solemn mockery’ of ‘the constitution itself’” and finding, as well, that it does not matter that the Supreme Court later vacated the order that the government previously violated because “it is a foundational legal precept that every judicial order ‘must be obeyed’—no matter how ‘erroneous’ it ‘may be’—until a court reverses it,” and finding that this means that Judge Boasberg’s order to turn those planes around, wrong as it may have been in terms of the venue of the district court that should have been entering it, was law unto those government officials who ignored it and failed to give those deportees any semblance of due process.
Actually, this all feels critical, I am going to include the whole article here. Even if you read it here, PLEASE click on the article so I don’t have to feel bad about including the whole thing.
And thus did Judge Boasberg offer the government a simple choice: He gave the defendants until April 23 to propose a plan to purge their contempt or to identify the contemnor—the person who gave the order to not turn the planes around, and Judge Boasberg did not lay out what exactly purging the contempt would look like precisely, but he did say that “The most obvious way for Defendants to do so here is by asserting custody of the individuals who were removed in violation of the Court’s classwide [order] so that they might avail themselves of their right to challenge their removability through a habeas proceeding” but he also says that, “The Court will also give Defendants an opportunity to propose other methods of coming into compliance, which the Court will evaluate,” and he did not say exactly what he would do to get to the truth, but he did say that “the Court will proceed to identify the individual(s) responsible for the contumacious conduct by determining whose ‘specific act or omission’ caused the noncompliance,” because either those deportees are going to get what they’re entitled to or he’s going to out and punish the miscreants who are keeping them from their semblance of due process.
And Judge Boasberg, I think, knows that the government has a third option, which is to appeal again and go up to the Supreme Court to complain that a single district judge is holding hostage the entire foreign policy of the United States and to complain in public that a single liberal district judge is trying to take over the State Department and the Department of Homeland Security and the foreign policy prerogatives of the president of the United States and wants to hold executive branch officials in contempt for failing to follow a lawless order that the Supreme Court already overturned and to have members of Congress introduce impeachment resolutions against this judge and to have other members of Congress talking about stripping the courts of jurisdiction over things and to do all of this knowing that while throwing up a lot of smoke won’t change the fact that the administration knowingly and intentionally and flagrantly violated a court order and Judge Boasberg’s opinion shows that conclusively, it will cause all kinds of people who should know better—not to mention even more people who probably can’t be expected to know better—to believe that the problem is the district judges who object to presidential lawlessness rather than to the lawlessness itself and the fact that his lawlessness has caused a couple of hundred people to rot in a Salvadoran prison with no semblance of due process.
And Judge Boasberg, I think, knows as well that the government has a fourth option too—and that that option is to stonewall this order, just as it stonewalled the one on which this order follows up—and that is to decline to “purge” its contempt because that would mean letting this unelected district judge run U.S. foreign policy and force the president of the United States to recover people he designated as gang members and terrorists from the sovereign government of El Salvador which doesn’t want to give them back because the president doesn’t want them back, and to decline to assist the judge in inquiring into the identity of the miscreant who caused this misadventure because, well, that person was—let’s just be honest about this—doing exactly what the president wanted, just as the president of El Salvador is now doing exactly what the president wants, and Judge Boasberg knows that this option is not incompatible with the third option—which is to say that the government could appeal the contempt order and go all the way up the appellate ladder once again and then, if and when it loses, stonewall anyway and drag things out for weeks or months more, during which time the deportees will continue to rot in the Salvadoran gulag with no semblance of due process.
And Judge Boasberg, I suspect, also knows that he has only a faint chance of getting the government to bring these people back, and he knows, I suspect, that he has only a slightly-better-than-faint chance of creating a clear record of who precisely the miscreant was who engineered this disaster, and he knows also—I’m fairly confident—that there’s a good chance that the government’s stonewalling will work, that he can’t force the American president to force the Salvadoran president to reload those planes and fly them back, and he might not even be able to force the government to reveal how this all came to pass and who is to blame for the violation of the court order and the deprivation to hundreds of men before deportation of any semblance of due process.
But damn it, he’s doing it anyway, because he’s a federal district judge, and the government defied his order, and Stephen Miller thinks that the administration’s gamesmanship with the most basic principles of the rule of law is just oh-so-clever, and the judge—with impeccable calmness and civility—is going to do everything in his power to remedy that, full well knowing that there are limits to his power, but knowing that his job is to make sure that someone asks every proper question, issues every reasonable order, and pulls on every available lever to vindicate that semblance of due process.
Succeed or fail, this is how it’s done.
The Situation continues tomorrow.
Since the article was written yesterday, “tomorrow” is today.
Ceci n est pas mon nym
I’ve heard certain voices (Glenn Kirschner and Michael Popok, I believe) talking about criminal contempt for over a month. That’s the path through which our democracy survives, since it was inevitable that the lawless administration would ignore court orders.
They claim that (despite Andrew Jackson’s infamous “John Marshall has made his decision, now let him enforce it”) judges have inherent powers to enforce their decisions, via IIRC the US Marshals and deputizing of state law enforcement.
I choose to hold onto hope that this plays out in favor of the rule of law.
Chacal Charles Calthrop
This should be a gift link to the latest Trump thread to Harvard, which is revoking Harvard’s tax-exempt status as a nonprofit educational institution:
https://www.nytimes.com/2025/04/16/us/politics/trump-irs-harvard.html?unlocked_article_code=1.AU8.j-Ae.rYymqLNRJL-n&smid=url-share
Abusing the IRS is going to set a precedent that can be used against many more people than illegal immigrants.
bbleh
Autocorrect hilarity: Judge Boaster’s opinion find the probably cause
Would also note that Boasberg ain’t just some run-of-the-mill District Court judge: he’s chief judge of the District of Columbia district court, a former head of the FISA court, and reportedly longtime buddies with (I think) Justice Boof. He’s got some political weight.
kindness
At some point, soon hopefully, this SCOTUS has to decide how it wants history to view it. We already know at least 3 of them are fine being this era’s Dred Scott court. We know how the 3 liberals will go. It’s the middle 3 that will call this when these cases eventually get dumped on them. I see a bunch of 5-4 calls and I’m not confident the important cases will be on the 5 justice end of that.
Sean
@Ceci n est pas mon nym:
It would appear, judging by the last several weeks of evidence, that the US Marshalls are now the DOGE gestapo, and they do their bidding. They also fall under the purview of the DOJ, so I don’t think the Marshalls are gonna help the courts here. Deputizing state law enforcement is a different question, and likely depends a lot on the state. A lot of terrifying uncertainty coming up, on top of the neverending wave of terrifying uncertainty we are surfing every day.
comrade scotts agenda of rage
When was the last time a Federal judge had US Marshalls do something against officials in the government? I honestly don’t know.
I’m always struck by the fact that while the judiciary has the means at their technical disposal to enforce rulings, the other side is clearly daring them to try it. It’s a game of chicken in some ways.
Old Man Shadow
If the next Democratic president… if there is one… has guts, they should pull tax-exempt status from every religious organization that doesn’t spend 90% of its donations on actual, material charity that demonstrably helps people.
Steve LaBonne
@Chacal Charles Calthrop: Liberal churches will be high on the list.
oldgold
Republican Senator Lisa Murkowski:
“We are all afraid, It’s quite a statement. But we are in a time and a place where I certainly have not been here before. And I’ll tell ya, I’m oftentimes very anxious myself about using my voice, because retaliation is real. And that’s not right.”
Old Man Shadow
@oldgold: That’s nice, but is Susan Collins concerned?
oldgold
@Old Man Shadow: Well, I do not think it is fair to lump Murkowski with Collins. I believe Murkowski, on occasion, has showed more spine than Collins.
Sean
@oldgold:
Gee, if only she was in a position to call for resignations or introduce clarifying legislation. Oh, wait
I appreciate that she is saying she won’t vote for the reconciliation bill (as is with medicaid cuts, although she often finds her way to yes). That’s something at least.
stinger
Open thread — I have a question for Albatrossity regarding today’s daily sidebar image: What kind of bird is that?
ArchTeryx
@stinger: The Spotted Racing Bird. Known for meowing for treats.
Geminid
@Sean: My understanding is the U.S. Mashall for each judicial district is a political appointee, just like the U.S. Attorney. I expect them to do what the administration that appointed them wants.
evodevo
@Old Man Shadow:
Or churches where the preacher spews direction to vote for a certain candidate from the pulpit…talibangelicals have been violating this precept for decades..
Deputinize America
@Chacal Charles Calthrop: Nixon tried doing it, now Trump is going to weaponize it.
Deputinize America
@kindness:
Wild that the median votes are ACB and Boof.
Josie
My middle son is an attorney and a county prosecutor. He told me yesterday that, even if the judges could not force the administration to do the right thing, it was important for them to go on the record and document carefully exactly what is happening for future reference. Thanks goodness the judge has taken the first steps to do this.
Sean
@Geminid:
While that’s true, I can imagine the Trump DOJ threatening them with termination if they move to enforce a court directive. Plenty of doubt as to how well they’ll perform their duties, given the current situation. Maybe there are a few brave souls among them willing to be a martyr for defending democracy.
Sean
@Josie:
This is definitely true, for preserving what the law actually says/means, but also for shaping public opinion around these atrocities.
Eolirin
I think we have about six months, on the outside, before the country becomes unrecognizable.
Old Man Shadow
@evodevo: Nah, everything. All churches, mosques, synagogues, temples, anything religious that doesn’t provide at least 90% of the money it takes in to actual charitable services should pay taxes.
I might be willing to haggle that percentage down to 85. But that’s it.
And none of this, “Well, we provide spiritual solace”… fuck that. Actual food, clothing, money to pay bills, rent money, backpacks and pencils for kids, actual material shit that provides a real benefit and not a “spiritual” benefit.
Harrison Wesley
@Deputinize America: I’m one of the unwashed masses, but I see what appear to be occasional flashes of integrity from ACB.
JaySinWA
I believe we are going to have to abandon the call for a return to “rule of law” eventually, since history and current events tell us that the de facto and de jure rule of law is likely end up supporting a fascist regime.
We see unjust laws being proposed and enacted all over, and the Constitution interpreted all too often to accommodate them. For the moment, the fact that the president is acting outside of the law is relevant, but it is more important to call for government officials to do what is right, not just what is lawful.
Baud
@Harrison Wesley:
Definitely true. She is far and away the best of the bad 6.
Butch
Just a question: I understand (maybe I’m wrong) that Trump can pardon criminal contempt but not civil. So I’m wondering why not go with civil if it can’t be pardoned? I don’t know the answer.
HopefullyNotcassandra
@Ceci n est pas mon nym:
agree with you for the most part.
I do have one mighty quibble. President Andrew Jackson did not have the means to stop the genocidal Trail of Tears had he wanted to do so. I don’t know what he wanted. Nearly every commentary brushes over that; nonetheless, it is true. Most also overstate what the Supreme Court actually ordered.
The case, Worcester v. Georgia https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/31/515/,
ordered that a man, Samuel Worcester be released from Georgia custody since he was apprehended on sovereign Cherokee territory. Georgia actually complied with the Supreme Court’s order and freed Mr. Worcester.
Mr. Worcester was imprisoned in Georgia for residing on Cherokee land without a permit from the state of Georgia. The opinion clearly delineated the federal, and not the state government, as having any control over sovereign Cherokee territory in Georgia. Nevertheless, the opinion did not order President Jackson to stop the trail of tears.
The quote many attribute to President Jackson is likely apocryphal since the Supreme Court did not order him to do anything in that case and his papers, news accounts and other contemporary sources do not include it. This apocrypha is everywhere; it isn’t on you.
My mighty quibble is Andrew Jackson, whatever else wrong he may have done, did nothing to give this president any cover for his administration’s blatant contempt for our courts, or our constitution.
Andrew Jackson was a defender of our democratic union always He was a believer in the people’s vote always, even if that vote ended slavery or, as occurred during his presidency, the overseas slave trade.
Nobody should let this president who cares nothing what we, the people, actually want and lies repeatedly about what he is doing, compare himself to Andrew Jackson, even though Jackson was, no doubt, also a racist.
JaySinWA
While I agree in spirit, I think that logic takes us to end tax exemptions for schools and universities as well.
ETA And I am not sure that is a good idea.
Bill Arnold
@Butch:
Why not both?
(Halfway serious.)
Jackie
This has been my deepest fear the past two weeks:
I don’t have a subscription to the rest of Chait’s article, but I’m almost too afraid to read more, regardless.
Baud
Leto
@Ceci n est pas mon nym: @Sean: @Geminid: one other wrinkle is the fact that this type of criminal contempt is pardonable by Trumpov. If it was civil contempt, that would be a different matter. I can’t remember if I read that here, yesterday, or saw one of the talking lawyer heads speak about it, but it’s something to factor in. Like Sean mentioned, ICE/US Marshals/etc have mostly gone full Gestapo and are already acting outside the rule of law. Like so many other things, I guess we’ll see how this plays out.
I don’t know if this was covered yesterday (I’m 10 pages deep into a 20 page paper, and still have another 10 page paper to write for another class), but I thought this was relevant:
The entire Pentagon defense technology team is resigning, putting US at huge risk of cyberattacks
Bold is mine.
Harrison Wesley
@Baud: If she could grab one more and they could have a come-to-Earl-Warren revelation.,… I need to get back to the real world.
Steve LaBonne
@JaySinWA: It’s a bloody stupid idea. You can’t operate a church on 10% of donations. And the refusal of some aggressively secular types to understand that many religious bodies are on our side is even more stupid. {Just because the mainstream media do a great job of ignoring the religious left doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist.) Don’t shit on your allies is a very basic political principle.
Baud
@Harrison Wesley:
Maybe one of them will have a concussion severe enough to change their personality.
Leto
@Jackie: Tim Snyder talks about this in reference to the Holocaust and how Germany proceeded with it. It was easier to put someone outside the rule of law, than to change the rule of law. And that’s what his administration is doing here, and what they’re arguing. If they can succeed with Garcia, then it’s going to happen to the rest of us. Like Trumpov said to Bekele, “We need you to build 5 more; we want to send more.” Paraphrasing there, but yeah.
Harrison Wesley
@Baud: Hey , get Boof back into party animal mode and who knows?
Steve LaBonne
@Leto: “The homegrown ones.” He was very clear that he is preparing the ground for sending citizens to foreign gulags.
Paul in KY
@HopefullyNotcassandra: Pres. Jackson, as much of a racist asshole who probably lied about being born in the US he was, was sooooooooo much better a person and President than Cheetolini.
Steve LaBonne
@Paul in KY: So was President Camacho.
Paul in KY
@Steve LaBonne: Agreed!
Jeffro
I usually go with “restore the rule of law and trumpov must go”
(I know ol’ JD is every bit the fascist as his orange owner, but MAGA will have a hard time supporting that anti-charismatic dipstick)
Old School
@Old Man Shadow:
So ministers, rabbis, organists, secretaries, etc. now work for free? Are the buildings allowed to have phone service, electricity, or be insured?
Operating expenses add up quickly.
HopefullyNotcassandra
@Sean: I think you will find that this regime has been deputizing special U.S. marshals to carry out their schemes. Every time I have checked that is what this regime has done. I do not know if this regime is following our laws when it does this. Here is the law on this
https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/28/0.112
This deputization is not usually nefarious. Courtroom marshals are special deputy U.S. marshals. So, you could be right that our marshals cannot be trusted to obey their oath to follow our constitution.
Yet, it could also be that this regime is deputizing marshals contrary to our laws as a sort of end run around posse comitatus (which is what I am beginning to suspect. Perhaps I am too sympathetic to marshals ? Time will tell).
Jeffro
@Jackie: maybe we can remind MAGA elected officials that if being on trump’s bad side is all it takes to end up in a foreign prison hellhole…well…they sure better be able to figure out what his good side is, each and every five minutes…
(same for their kids, their families, their business associates, etc)
Old Man Shadow
@Steve LaBonne: Well, then they can render unto Caesar his share of the income they don’t spend on actual charity.
Tax exemption for religious services is a left over from medieval Europe. Shouldn’t have a place in a religiously neutral Republic.
Old Man Shadow
@Old School: They could just pay taxes.
scav
@Old Man Shadow: Well, let’s say automatic tax exemption is a relic. Make churches / mosques / temples etc (will have to perhaps diker on organizational level) prove it, as do other organizations. Merely claiming to provide self-defined ineffable solace on self-designated holy days not enough.
Steve LaBonne
@Old Man Shadow: As already pointed out, this is nonsense. Many other types of nonprofit organizations such as schools and colleges, museums, issue advocacy groups, etc., are tax exempt for reasons quite distinct from charity. If you also want all of them to pay taxes, I would disagree but at least that would be a coherent position. Singling out churches is nothing but an expression of your personal pique.
Steve LaBonne
@scav: They do. Every UU church I have belonged to is a registered 401(c)(3) organization. People should really inform themselves before they spout off.
HopefullyNotcassandra
@Geminid: you are right maybe?
There are 71 political appointees in the marshal service. Right now, there is no head. This president appointed Gadyaces Seralta, but he has not been confirmed.
There are a lot of marshals.
From the U.S. Marshal fact sheet
https://prod.usmarshals.gov/sites/default/files/media/document/2025-Facts-and-Figures.pdf
I don’t think the courtroom special deputy marshals will be easily fired by anybody other than their judge. Time will tell.
NaijaGal
@Jackie: Is Bukele subject to the jurisdiction of the International Criminal Court? The US isn’t but I wonder whether El Salvador is. It might be a way forward if it is but I am not a lawyer.
Melancholy Jaques
@Old Man Shadow:
That’s never going to happen, sadly.
Jackie
MSNBC is reporting active shooter at FSU. Four people (so far) hospitalized…
HopefullyNotcassandra
@Deputinize America: president Nixon’s abuse of the IRS was one of the grounds for his impeachment. Those republicans had cojones.
Steve LaBonne
@HopefullyNotcassandra: And the conclusion the rest of the Republicans drew was that Republican presidents must be supported no matter what they do.
Deputinize America
@Steve LaBonne:
They’re nothing more than country clubs at this point. Nonprofit is one thing – I’ll grant them that status, but its another to have contributions be deductible and for their property and side businesses be untaxed.
Deputinize America
@Steve LaBonne:
President Camacho was savvy enough to hire the smartest man in the world to fix the crop problem.
Old Man Shadow
@Melancholy Jaques: Oh, I’m aware.
Grant tried it once. Didn’t happen. Probably won’t ever happen. And all of these megachurches spewing hateful political bile while enriching their senior pastor will continue to generate the next generation of fascists and bigots benefiting from the infrastructure of the State without contributing anything of worth.
brantl
@HopefullyNotcassandra: and every kind of miscreant, too.
Steve LaBonne
@Deputinize America: You have no idea what the fuck you are babbling about. You think Talibangelical churches are the only kind that exist? And they VIOLATE the tax laws in ways that WOULD justify stripping their tax exemptions except no Democratic Administration has had the guts to enforce the law. Punishing Episcopalians or Quakers or Reform Jews or UUs for that failure is beyond idiotic.
HopefullyNotcassandra
@Jackie: A Connecticut born, U.S. practicing doctor got a deport yourself now letter. She now travels everywhere with her U.S. passport.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/woman-born-in-the-us-gets-email-from-dhs-telling-her-it-s-time-to-leave-the-country/
and a Boston born immigration lawyer got the same “leave the country now” email
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/nicole-micheroni-immigration-attorney-deport-b2732744.html
Our department of Homelamd Security (never liked that name) claims it was a mistake.
Mag
@Eolirin: The U.S. is already unrecognizable.
HopefullyNotcassandra
@Paul in KY: I never heard he lied about where he was born. ??
I know he lost most of his family on board a British prison ship during the revolutionary war. Yes, he was a much better person and president imho.
Old Man Shadow
No. They are, however, the ones that are the largest, the loudest, and the most influential and the ones that are openly a scam.
Anyway, the entire fucking argument is pointless anyway. As said, it’s never going to happen.
Just like doing anything to rein in the constant stream of lies, slander, and disinformation won’t happen.
Elizabelle
@ArchTeryx: LOL.
Spotted Racing Bird. Well done, sir.
Steve LaBonne
@Old Man Shadow: Direct your complaints to the past Democratic-appointed IRS heads who have failed to enforce the law despite receiving many complaints about the scams and the open meddling in partisan politics. Existing law would be more than sufficient to take them on if anyone were actually willing to use it. Tarring everyone with the same brush is just dumb.
lowtechcyclist
@HopefullyNotcassandra:
The early 1970s were a different world.
Steve LaBonne
@Mag: Or rather, there have long been many things about it that we were failing to notice until they were rubbed in our faces.
HopefullyNotcassandra
@Mag: I keep expecting to wake up and be told it is all some kind of elaborate joke. I don’t know how ? I think of all those who had a “hard war” defending us and all those who gave the last measure of devotion to us. How can anyone of us abandon that sacrifice?
brantl
@HopefullyNotcassandra: No, they simply feared the damage Tricky Dick was going to do to the party.
JWR
Wait, whut?! Is this new?
JoyceH
Some journalist needs to go through all Trump’s statements (ugh, I know – have the computer do it) and make a list of every person Trump has described as “a traitor” or “the worst”. He talks about sending the “homegrown” to his Salvadoran concentration camp and talks like he’ll be sending violent criminals but we know better, don’t we? The current prison has a capacity to hold 40,000, and Trump told Bukele he needed to build five more. You do the math.
Paul in KY
@HopefullyNotcassandra: He said he was fighting the Brits when he was 10 (not older and fighting the Brits). It is thought he made that up to cover for the fact that he was older and probably born aboard a ship coming to the US and thus ineligible to be President.
JaySinWA
Not really, the article was updated today, but includes a picture of the cables with this caption from April 2nd:
HopefullyNotcassandra
@Jackie: horrible
Old School
@Deputinize America:
To the extent that their property and side businesses aren’t furthering their exempt purpose, they are taxable.
Melancholy Jaques
@Old Man Shadow:
Agree. One of my favorite examples is Creflo Dollar. I mean, he even put it in his name and they still give him money.
Geminid
@HopefullyNotcassandra: I thought the ambiguity regarding Andrew Jackson’s place of birth was over whether he was born in the Colony of South or North Carolina. His birthplace was right near the line, but by the time he became famous it was long gone.
cmorenc
@HopefullyNotcassandra:
And so was nearly every white person in the US circa 1830. Racism didn’t really start becoming a less universal trait of white people in the US until the late 1940s and 1950s, but as we are being harshly reminded in 2025 America, went underground for awhile but never burned out among a substantial portion of the white population.
NaijaGal
@NaijaGal: I see that El Salvador ratified the Rome Statue in 2016. It is subject to the International Criminal Court. Bukele is not a wise man. He might want to read up on the current whereabouts of a certain Rodrigo Duterte, former president of the Philippines.
HopefullyNotcassandra
@Paul in KY: He was released from a British prison ship when he was 14. His brother died on the ship. I think he started fighting at 13. His father died here in the Carolinas before he was born. His mother, also from the Carolinas, nursed revolutionary soldiers so maybe that is where the 10 year old story comes to be.
I don’t see how he could have been born elsewhere, but I don’t know for certain. I would think somebody would have checked church records in the Carolinas, and then I remember Tarleton burned some down and others burned accidentally.
prostratedragon
Arrested yesterday:
Not unprecedented error, but with people being yeeted to El Salvador, quite ominous. His mother has already produced his documents in court.
HopefullyNotcassandra
@Geminid: I thought so too. I think of him as from the Carolinas. Yet, I don’t know for certain.
WTFGhost
@Ceci n est pas mon nym: The one problem with criminal contempt, is, as a criminal act, Trump can pardon it – or so I believe I recall from his first term.
This is the problem the SCOTUS created – if Trump does it, it’s not prosecutable if it’s an official act. If someone other than Trump does it, he can pardon any criminal act under US law.
@Chacal Charles Calthrop: Remember, this is what the Obama White House was falsely accused of doing to Teabaggers.
@bbleh: As head of the FISA court, the administration might lose all its state secrets privilege. Head of FISA means the judge has clearance out the wazoo; clearance, plus need-to-know, means “hand it over, jack; my court order trumps your desire for secrecy.” That’s been one of my hopes.
@comrade scotts agenda of rage: It is, but lawyers and judges know when to work slowly, carefully, calmly, and completely within the system, so only evil judges could overturn the decision.
@oldgold: Oh, my, her “concern” has become a sense that it’s “not right” because she, she personally, might be retaliated against, and that’s not a good thing! How DARE Trump cause a problem for a professional politician! And for what – some scummy immigrants being shipped to a hellhole! The *nerve* of that guy, making a big, important, and very concerned woman, feel nervous for her personal safety!
@Deputinize America: Oh, I think they take turns playing “reasonable.” Who cares if it’s 6-3 or 5-4, a Republican decision is a Republican decision! But, they can always let at least one person pretend to have “issues” and complain about some fundamental unfairness, because that makes the court look like it’s not entirely controlled by Republican desires.
@JaySinWA: Under current law, a Tea Party organization would have more rights to tax exemption than a religious organization, if there were strong “you must give away most donations, if you’re religious!” rule, even though both are providing a form of spiritual solace. And while I disapprove of the “solace” granted by the tea party, it’s definitely viewpoint discrimination to say “if you’re religious, you have to follow especially onerous rules, that the non-religious are spared.”
gene108
@Old Man Shadow:
Extending this logic should other tax exempt organizations that do not provide “actual material shit that’s a real benefit”, be taxed like the ACLU, the Sierra Club, etc.?
NaijaGal
@prostratedragon: This is terrible and will happen over and over because of similarities with names.
JWR
@JaySinWA: Thanks for clearing that up. But boy, I can’t keep track of which wrecking ball is swinging where these days.
Marc
I wouldn’t say underground. For 50 years people were aware it could cost them their job or business if they said or did certain things in an overt fashion, so some just got more covert about it. It is no longer necessary to be covert (at least in red states).
prostratedragon
Columbia alumni are collecting signatures:
Old Man Shadow
@gene108: The ACLU provides legal services.
I’m sure we could figure out an equitable solution if we put our heads together.
But we won’t. Same reason we won’t enforce the Johnson amendment.
Loud, influential, rich interests want to continue pushing hateful shit for profit that is killing the better angels of America. If those angels ever existed.
HopefullyNotcassandra
@cmorenc: I am happy to report that is not so.
Britain abounded with non racists like William Wilberforce who would go on to get the slave trade and slavery outlawed throughout the British Empire. Mr. Wilberforce died in 1833.
The British slave trade was banned May 23, 1806. He first introduced a bill to ban it on May 12, 1789. He considered slavery and the failure to treat the slave as a brother as a great sin.
There were numerous books/autobiographies published similar to 12 years a slave at that time too. London abounded with people of every color, from nearly every part of the world and many were citizens. Remember Britains never ever shall be slaves? That joyful cry applied to every Britisher of every shade.
The only problem Mr. Wilberforce suffered from was credulity and trust in the words of his fellow white men. Otherwise, his cause may have succeeded sooner and his life lasted longer. Stress killed him.
In addition, it often is overlooked in favor of the guillotining of innocents (which happened), but the French Revolution outlawed discrimination based on color. Great Britain likely would have banned the slave trade sooner and acknowledged its black residents as brothers sooner but for the French reign of terror being tied to anti-racism among many other universal human rights.
The 1700-1800 were an age of great decency and abysmal despair in Europe imho and Charles Dickens’ too.
Jay
Imports at US Ports are down 74% from January and continue to drop.
That’s twice the size of the drop from early Covid.
You will be seeing empty shelves soon in the Peoples Not Really Democratic Republic of Trumpistan.
gene108
@scav:
Having worked as an accountant for a few non-profits, by law, non-profits have to state what service they are providing and file an information return, form 990, showing how much goes to the service they are providing, how much to overhead, and how much to salaries, and how much of overheads and salaries get allocated to services versus operations.
This applies to religious organizations, environmental groups, reproductive health services, like Planned Parenthood, etc.
I will say this about churches, synagogues, mosques, and temples, providing a place for a community to gather is a service in and of itself. Turning these places to for-profit organizations will change how they interact with the community in ways I cannot predict.
WTFGhost
@Jeffro: Plus, Vance probably fears disbarment; Trump doesn’t.
@NaijaGal: I think that’s only a danger if he leaves El Salvador. I do have to say, having him suddenly be vanished would seem like justice (on the face of it), though the ensuing WTF would probably cause a lot of damage.
(Don’t look up the TLA – I’m calling the vanishing of a dictator a WTF. It’s better than saying he’s hiking the Appalachian trail!)
@Steve LaBonne: Blame the Republicans in Congress who crapped on the IRS for trying to do their job, and falsely insisted that there were orders from on high to act. With that load of crap, no Democrat had political cover to investigate any RW church. It’s like how Congress shuts down all funding to investigate right wing terror groups, because they know so many of their followers are literal terrorists – or, so I would assume.
Old School
@gene108: While churches do not have to file a Form 990, religious organizations (for example, St. Vincent de Paul, Lutheran Social Services) do have to file.
Paul in KY
@HopefullyNotcassandra: Certainly could be wrong on that! Thank you for your info.
Jay
Bukele is already under investigation by a bunch of different jurisdictions, for the same “issues”.
-while running for President, he cut a deal with MS-13. In exchange for their “support”, (intimidation, vote rigging, etc) in the areas they controlled, he would free a bunch of their leadership from jail, end crackdowns on MS-13’s jail operations and drug trade.
Mexico arrested some 13 of the MS-13 leaders released from jail, the Biden Administration extradited them,
And as part of the “deal” Bukele cut with DJTdiot, all 13 were on the first “deportation” plane, so they could not testify against Bukele.
Professor Bigfoot
@Mag: Oh, it’s perfectly recognizable to some of us.
This country has been a police state for Black people since before the Founding.
Dorothy A. Winsor
NEW: The Fourth Circuit REJECTS the Trump admin’s appeal of Judge Xinis’s orders to “facilitate” Kilmar Abrego Garcia’s release: “We shall not micromanage the efforts of a fine district judge attempting to implement the Supreme Court’s recent decision.” https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.ca4.178400/gov.uscourts.ca4.178400.8.0.pdf
Citizen Alan
@Old Man Shadow: Never say never. Christian churches have been wringing their hands for years about declining membership among young people. If we get another five or ten years of this bullshit, young people will absolutely despise Trump -humping evangelical christianity and probably christianity as a whole. And at least as far as the evangelicals go, they will be wise to do so.
Steve LaBonne
@WTFGhost: If we ever have another Democratic Administration it needs to find the courage to do this and a lot of other things. If we still have a chance, it is assuredly the last chance. The support system of Trumpism will have to be attacked as vigorously (but more legally, with legislation and an expanded Supreme Court that will allow it to stand) as Trump is attacking us. Otherwise we will again have a brief reprieve followed by a final descent into fascism from which we will not recover for a very long time.
HopefullyNotcassandra
@gene108: How does Scientology justify its tax exempt status? Or does no-one question it?
Martin
So, as usual y’all are getting what’s in my head, not what the thread is necessarily discussing.
Trump picking a fight with Harvard is important, not because I think Harvard has institutional power or legal cleverness (though both are true among academic institutions, academic institutions as group have very little institutional power, mainly because that’s not something they seek or deploy) but because Harvard has a kind of cultural power that Trump may struggle to overcome.
Fascism is if nothing else, an exercise in taking a societies loose social hierarchy and making it rigid. If immigrants were near the bottom, they become the enemy. If rich white people were near the top, they become immune to consequences, etc. Even among Trumpers who would blame everything on coastal elites, in the moment when you are getting to know someone and ask where their kids are going to college, ‘my kid is at Harvard’ remains the trump card in that contest. You win the social status contest there even now. And in a fascist system, those implied social statuses become explicit. You know who is in charge by who wears the most medals, has the biggest hat, the most gold in their office, <cough>biggest truck</cough>, and so on. Harvard is the academic equivalent of wearing the biggest hat, and that is something that fascists covet. If Trump went there, he’d brag about it constantly. He thinks he’s smart because his uncle taught at MIT, so he is fully of the space that the institutional reputation is a valid proxy for status (and apparently that is inheritable). And that’s a quality his supporters have as well because he’s been training them in that way for years, and he did through his show as well.
So Harvard starts as a tricky target because it is an example of American exceptionalism. It is 400 years old, and predates the country by a significant amount. Its stands as proof of America’s greatness. But Harvards real role is to throw off household names. Harvards job is to a large degree to reaffirm pedigree (all Kennedys go to Harvard) and to keep their reputation through the accomplishments of their graduates. They work very hard to put their graduates on the Supreme Court. And whether it’s actors or writers or journalists or doctors or what have you, the Harvard branding always comes forward for public figures, and they are almost universally proud of that. I guarantee when John Roberts is writing his introduction, Harvard comes up very early, if not first after his title. And what this means is that Harvard has a lot of defenders that themselves have credibility with the public. USAID doesn’t have defenders with a lot of trust with voters. Hell, Social Security doesn’t either, because its defenders are all dead – the people who had the idea and made that agency happen. But Harvard is constantly creating new defenders, who are a product of the institution, and these are household names and Harvard is very good at shaping their image. They are very good at PR. They can mount a public campaign for why Harvard shouldn’t be destroyed that really almost no other academic institution can do. My school can maybe roll out a couple of household names, but Harvard can roll out an army of them, and quite a few that are likely willing to speak out. And that’s a fight I’m not sure Trump is used to fighting or can be.
There’s a curious inside baseball problem that Trumps actions could create and that’s in college rankings. If Harvard loses their tax exempt status, then Harvard falls out of the category of school rankings that they are accustomed to being seen in. And the loss of international admissions undermines that as well. There’s no universe where Harvard is not ranked in the top 3, and so the rankings are going to have to rewrite their rules to produce that outcome (because that’s how these guys make money – nobody is going to think the loss of tax exempt status makes Harvard a bad school – rankings are as much in the job of confirming peoples biases as anything else) and I’m curious to see just what contortions they have to go through to preserve that hierarchy, and to what degree that will further undermine the whole idea of rankings.
HopefullyNotcassandra
@Paul in KY: No worries
When discussing history, I always open by assuming I could be wrong. Happened before any of us could witness any of it ; )
WaterGirl
@Sean: catfishncod posted this recently.
Behold 42 USC 1989:
Andrya
@Old Man Shadow: The American Humanist Association (promoting atheism/agnosticism) is tax exempt.
Jackie
@Dorothy A. Winsor:
How Will FFOTUS and Bondi respond? If they do at all? Back to the Supremes?
Mr. Bemused Senior
@Dorothy A. Winsor: wow. That decision does not mince words.
Martin
@Jay: A secondary effect of reduced port traffic is that part of how California distributes produce inexpensively is that there is this constant flow of trucks to the state for long-haul shipping of port traffic. As that goes down, you’ll have more deadhead traffic which means the produce buyer is having to pay both directions of that trip instead of possibly just one. It’s a small effect, but these things add up.
Ruckus
@Baud:
You do understand that a concussion that severe will change their personalities by one method.
Removing it completely.
Captain C
@HopefullyNotcassandra: They come after the IRS with lots of aggressive lawyers (and worse). Kind like of how they kept Danny Masterson out of jail for multiple rapes for nearly two decades (he’s now doing 30 to life).
Martin
Lawsuit against Tesla arguing the cars speed up the odometer to push the car out of warranty faster, possibly using battery health to selectively do this.
I would normally be skeptical of this sort of stuff, but when you see just how brazen automakers were during Dieselgate, this is totally plausible.
prostratedragon
They “know” that Abrego Garcia is a gang member because he wore a Bulls cap and jacket:
So transparent.
Timill
@Paul in KY: Not relevant. He was eligible to the Presidency as he was a citizen of the US at the time of the adoption of the Constitution.
Its easy to forget, as there are few known Immortals to whom it might still apply…
Jay
@Martin:
It’s actually not. Trucking is the #1 job by employment numbers in 34 States. In less than two weeks, the 7 day rate, (a quote/bid system), (what long haul Independent truckers get paid per mile) has plummeted from $0.58 to $0.07. That doesn’t even cover fuel.
Translated, that’s a shit ton of trucks sitting parked, because nobody is shipping anything.
And a bunch of truckers so desperate for the cash flow, that they are willing to bid so low that they lose money on every mile.
Ruckus
@HopefullyNotcassandra:
As someone with a family member in scientology, who I haven’t spoken to in 10 years. I can absolutely state that it is a religion. Not one I’d want to have any thing whatsoever to do with in any way, shape or form. Because I was also sent to an all boys catholic technical HS, which I attended for 1 year and told mom that I would leave home and she’d never see me again if she even entertained even the concept that there is any possibility whatsoever of me going back. Now I will add that one of the reasons was one of the fathers, the vice principal, who I believe thought that being the VICE principal gave him 1000% authority to physically abuse the students and be one of the worst human beings I’ve ever been within 5 miles of and I went to school with Leslie Van Houten. Other than 9th grade. That’s when I put up with the shitty priest.
catclub
so what, they have three spare votes. I bet there are not two others in the GOP to oppose it.
gvg
@JaySinWA: Um my understanding is the exemption for schools and universities is only for public schools owned by the states (or it could be the federal government I guess) and the point is it’s silly to tax oneself. There are tax exemeptions for nonprofits if they are nonprofits that apply to more than schools, and have rules and proof. Organizations can have parts that are both…I suspect churches would tend to fall under that set of rules.
Steve in the ATL
@Martin:
???
1. Princeton
2. Washington and Lee
3. Stanford
4. Yale
5. Harvard
NaijaGal
@WTFGhost: I’m sure Rodrigo Duterte never expected to be sitting in The Hague awaiting a trial for crimes against humanity. He used to be one of Trump’s favorite strongmen.
It’s not just travel – Bukele’s successor could hand him over to the ICC, just as Duterte’s did (in spite of the fact that Duterte’s daughter is Vice President of the Philippines!). I’m sure he’s aware that the ICC seems to work against former leaders of small countries in a way it doesn’t work against leaders of countries like Russia.
And Bukele also seems to be betting on Republicans running the US for the rest of his (Bukele’s) life.
Sean
@catclub:
The only way to convince anyone to vote against it is to speak out against it, so that’s why I say it is something, even if it isn’t going to work. I’m not nominating her for a profile in courage or anything.
Leto
@Steve in the ATL:
???
1 Massachusetts Institute of Technology
2 Harvard University
3 Princeton University
4 Stanford University
5 California Institute of Technology
WTFGhost
@NaijaGal: Ah, thanks.
I think “travel” stuck in my brain because that’s what they said of US citizens who committed actual war crimes – the US wouldn’t hand anyone over (or so the assumption goes) so their big penalty would be “no travelling to any place that grants jurisdiction to the war crimes council.”
HopefullyNotcassandra
@cmorenc: I gave you Britain when you said U.S.
in the United States, there is Gerrit Smith and John Brown just to name 2. The abolitionist movement in this country did not succeed without a bloody civil war, but they were many and quite a few of them were not at all bigoted, which seems difficult to believe and yet, it is also true.
John Brown’s portrait in the capital of Kansas is a sight to behold.
https://images.kansasmemory.gov/thumb500/00044806.jpg
HopefullyNotcassandra
@Ruckus: I am sorry that happened to you! Leslie Von Houghton -just wow
Sean
@WaterGirl:
I am by no means an expert on the Marshalls, so I will continue to hope these statutes mean the judiciary can still exert some influence or effect an outcome. But I think largely these actions, whatever they may be, will be about public opinion because Trump is absolutely going to pardon anyone convicted of criminal contempt.
Having a string of these that go down this very corrupt road could continue to grow anti-trump sentiment. That would be good, but democracy is on a clock relative to Trump’s insanity, and time is not on our side.
JaySinWA
@gvg: Washington state taxes (primarily property taxes) specifically exempt not for profit schools, not just state schools.
I haven’t checked the state B&O taxes.
WTFGhost
@JaySinWA: Balloon-juice, come in to bitch about a lawless dictator, learn a bunch about tax exemptions.
God, gods, and/or goddess(es) bless you, and I’ll ring up the nameless entities that might not be divine, but that’s only because they haven’t tried out for Ru Paul yet, for their blessings too.
Steve LaBonne
@gvg: Do you not pay attention to the news? They are threatening Harvard’s tax exemption. Harvard is very much NOT a state-owned school. Private nonprofit schools and colleges most certainly are tax exempt.
dnfree
@gene108: Donations to the ACLU and the Sierra Club are not tax-deductible because they take stands on political issues and elections.
rikyrah
@Chacal Charles Calthrop:
You can’t just randomly choose about tax status.
Time to sue sue sue
rikyrah
@oldgold:
You are a Senator.
Stand the phuck up to the oath you took.
Steve LaBonne
@dnfree: ACLU has a foundation, gifts to which are deductible. Of course with the standard deduction being as large as it is this is no longer a consideration for many of us
Steve LaBonne
@rikyrah: They will sue and they will win.
sab
@Chacal Charles Calthrop: They have been abusing the IRS for many years. Years ago an IRS official tried to stop Republican organizations from pretending they were charities when they were political organizations. She got handed her head on a platter.
Liz Cheney and W Bush may be our modern paragons of after years former Republicans, but they set all of this in motion. Liz Cheney is the poster child of leopard’s eat your face.
sab
@Steve LaBonne: Harvard has a bunch of its people on the Supreme Court. Just saying.
Paul in KY
@Timill: Interesting thought. So, the being born in US to run did not apply if you were an American citizen alive when the constitution was ratified?
Paul in KY
@HopefullyNotcassandra: That’s a pretty bodacious portrait.
Paul in KY
@sab: I would never call Chimpy McBatshit a ‘former Republican’. Cheney fils may now be.