Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

They want us to be overwhelmed and exhausted. Focus. Resist. Oppose.

It’s always darkest before the other shoe drops.

Well, whatever it is, it’s better than being a Republican.

I swear, each month of 2025 will have its own history degree.

We still have time to mess this up!

Shallow, uninformed, and lacking identity

Their boy Ron is an empty plastic cup that will never know pudding.

They were going to turn on one another at some point. It was inevitable.

Trump’s cabinet: like a magic 8 ball that only gives wrong answers.

Whoever he was, that guy was nuts.

Sometimes the world just tells you your cat is here.

America is going up in flames. The NYTimes fawns over MAGA celebrities. No longer a real newspaper.

New McCarthy, same old McCarthyism.

If you cannot answer whether trump lost the 2020 election, you are unfit for office.

Stamping your little feets and demanding that they see how important you are? Not working anymore.

Jesus watching the most hateful people claiming to be his followers

The revolution will be supervised.

They are not red states to be hated; they are voter suppression states to be fixed.

Reality always lies in wait for … Democrats.

“Facilitate” is an active verb, not a weasel word.

Today’s gop: why go just far enough when too far is right there?

You’re just a puppy masquerading as an old coot.

Dear media: perhaps we ought to let Donald Trump speak for himself!

Only Democrats have agency, apparently.

You are here: Home / Civil Rights / Criminal Justice / So It Continues, Uncharted Waters Part 2

So It Continues, Uncharted Waters Part 2

by | 132 Comments

This post is in: , ,

In yesterday’s post, linked below, I shared thoughts from Ben Wittes and Marc Elias about Judge Boasberg’s ruling on the illegal kidnapping (my words!) of a legal resident in America.

So It Begins, Uncharted Waters

Today I want to share thoughts from Jay Kuo about the followup ruling from Judge Wilkinson.  (You’ll see his full name below.)

An Opinion for the Ages

There are moments when stories and messages break through the noise, even in a time when chaos agents in the Trump administration have come at us with everything, hoping to flood the zone and overwhelm the public.

Sometimes things just cut through.

The plight of Kilmar Abrego García is one such moment. It has captured the attention of the public in large part because the government admitted it made a mistake but now stubbornly refuses to fix it. Moreover, the Supreme Court ruled against the White House in a 9-0 decision, even if it was mealy mouthed as usual.

Enter Judge J. Harvie Wilkinson III (yes, that’s his full, quite Republican name). Judge Wilkinson sits on the Fourth Circuit and is a Reagan appointee. He’s a consistently conservative voice. Like conservative icon Ret. Judge J. Michael Luttig (also of the Fourth Circuit, and also with three names but no Roman numerals), Judge Wilkinson was once on everyone’s short list to replace Justice Antonin Scalia.

He’s not exactly a bleeding heart liberal. And yet, he just shredded Trump.

His opinion yesterday unsurprisingly declined to second guess Judge Paula Xinis’s implementation of SCOTUS’s recent ruling in the Abrego García case. That unanimous opinion had upheld a ruling by Xinis, whom Wilkinson praised as a “fine district judge,” that had directed the government to facilitate the return of Abrego García to the U.S. from a notorious prison in El Salvador.

But it was Wilkinson’s critique of the executive that made lawyers and jurists everywhere stand and cheer.

Kuo is kind enough to quote the ruling section by section, with his reaction, stated in plain English.  I’ve quoted the first 7 chunks in the first 7 comments below, but you really should read the whole thing.

Mostly open thread.

Reader Interactions

Commenters

No commenters available.

  • anastasio beaverhausen
  • Baud
  • Betty
  • Bill Arnold
  • cain
  • Chetan Murthy
  • circular reasoning
  • coin operated
  • comrade scotts agenda of rage
  • dc
  • different-church-lady
  • dnfree
  • Epicurus
  • Flanders Other Neighbor
  • FNW
  • frosty
  • Geminid
  • H.E.Wolf
  • hotshoe
  • hrprogressive
  • Jay
  • JoyceH
  • Kristine
  • lou
  • Marc
  • Martin
  • Miss Bianca
  • MoCaAce
  • Mr. Bemused Senior
  • Old School
  • oldgold
  • Omnes Omnibus
  • Paul in KY
  • Planetjanet
  • Ramalama
  • Raoul Paste
  • RevRick
  • rikyrah
  • Ruckus
  • Sally
  • Scout211
  • Steve LaBonne
  • stinger
  • TEL
  • They Call Me Noni
  • Tim in SF
  • Timill
  • WaterGirl
  • YY_Sima Qian

Filtered Commenters

No filtered commenters available.

    Settings




    Settings are saved immediately; press X to close the box.

    132Comments

    1. 1.

      WaterGirl

      Then he dives right in, addressing the fascist elephant in the room.

      It is difficult in some cases to get to the very heart of the matter. But in this case, it is not hard at all.

      The government is asserting a right to stash away residents of this country in foreign prisons without the semblance of due process that is the foundation of our constitutional order.

      Further, it claims in essence that because it has rid itself of custody that there is nothing that can be done.

      This should be shocking not only to judges, but to the intuitive sense of liberty that Americans far removed from courthouses still hold dear.

      Wow, I thought as I first read this. He just went there. So we’re going to talk about due process, we’re going to talk about the government’s bogus claim that it’s powerless to act, and we’re apparently going to rip the White House a new one.

      Reply
    2. 2.

      WaterGirl

      The government asserts that Abrego Garcia is a terrorist and a member of MS-13. Perhaps, but perhaps not. Regardless, he is still entitled to due process. If the government is confident of its position, it should be assured that position will prevail in proceedings to terminate the withholding of removal order.

      Indeed. The White House keeps pressing unfounded claims that Abrego García MS-13, that he’s a criminal, that he deserved to be deported. They say that to the cameras, but why not then just prove it in a court?

      It’s because Pam Bondi and the Justice Department know the truth: The whole thing is built upon a single hearsay statement by an ICE agent. As Judge Xinis noted in her prior ruling, “The ‘evidence’ against Abrego García consisted of nothing more than his Chicago Bulls hat and hoodie and a vague, uncorroborated allegation from a confidential informant claiming he belonged to MS-13’s ‘Western’ clique in New York — a place he has never lived.”

      Reply
    3. 3.

      WaterGirl

      Further, as Greg Sargent of The New Republic reported, the attesting officer was highly problematic:

      The cop who initially attested to Abrego Garcia’s alleged MS-13 membership was subsequently suspended and indicted for serious professional misconduct: Sharing case info with a sex worker.

      Judge Wilkinson cuts right through and notes that the question of Abrego García’s alleged MS-13 membership is wholly irrelevant to the bigger question at hand: Even ifhe were MS-13, isn’t he entitled to due process? His answer from Wilkinson is a resounding yes.

      I should note here, MAGA’s constant refrain that “bad guys don’t deserve due process” misses the point of due process entirely. After all, it presupposes who is good and bad—the very thing people get to challenge when given real due process. In Abrego García’s case, the allegation that he’s a bad guy is hardly proven, and in any case, it simply doesn’t matter for purposes of due process.

      Reply
    4. 4.

      WaterGirl

      So what is the government going to do about it?

      Wilkinson next takes the government to task over its inaction:

      Moreover, the government has conceded that Abrego Garcia was wrongly or “mistakenly” deported. Why then should it not make what was wrong, right?

      He turns to the recent, controlling and unanimous decision of the Supreme Court, one that he notes sought to balance the government’s legitimate interests against the requirements of the Constitution.

      The Supreme Court’s decision remains, as always, our guidepost. That decision rightly requires the lower federal courts to give “due regard for the deference owed to the Executive Branch in the conduct of foreign affairs.”

      Reply
    5. 5.

      WaterGirl

      He then walks through what deference usually looks like.

      That would allow sensitive diplomatic negotiations to be removed from public view. It would recognize as well that the “facilitation” of Abrego Garcia’s return leaves the Executive Branch with options in the execution to which the courts in accordance with the Supreme Court’s decision should extend a genuine deference. That decision struck a balance that does not permit lower courts to leave Article II by the wayside.

      But he draws the line at the idea of the government throwing up its hands.

      The Supreme Court’s decision does not, however, allow the government to do essentially nothing. It requires the government “to ‘facilitate’ Abrego Garcia’s release from custody in El Salvador and to ensure that his case is handled as it would have been had he not been improperly sent to El Salvador.”

      And here’s the point where the judge nails the government for its semantic games:

      “Facilitate” is an active verb. It requires that steps be taken as the Supreme Court has made perfectly clear. The plain and active meaning of the word cannot be diluted by its constriction, as the government would have it, to a narrow term of art.

      We are not bound in this context by a definition crafted by an administrative agency and contained in a mere policy directive. Thus, the government’s argument that all it must do is “remove any domestic barriers to [Abrego Garcia’s] return,” is not well taken in light of the Supreme Court’s command that the government facilitate Abrego Garcia’s release from custody in El Salvador.

      Judge Wilkinson explains how adopting the government’s view of “facilitation” would open the door to abuses and defiance of the Supreme Court’s clear directive. And it would make a mockery of the rule of law:

      “Facilitation” does not permit the admittedly erroneous deportation of an individual to the one country’s prisons that the withholding order forbids and, further, to do so in disregard of a court order that the government not so subtly spurns. “Facilitation” does not sanction the abrogation of habeas corpus through the transfer of custody to foreign detention centers in the manner attempted here.

      Allowing all this would “facilitate” foreign detention more than it would domestic return. It would reduce the rule of law to lawlessness and tarnish the very values for which Americans of diverse views and persuasions have always stood.

      Reply
    6. 6.

      WaterGirl

      Judge Wilkinson takes the next moment to capture the present tension between the executive and judicial branches, acknowledging with eloquence and grace that the executive may be impatient with the limitations that the judiciary has set, but those limitations are what safeguard our system. His opinion is a succinct encapsulation of the checks and balances built into our way of governance. It is one worth reflecting on going forward, especially as we question the “means” by which the Trump White House hopes to achieve its “ends”:

      The government is obviously frustrated and displeased with the rulings of the court. Let one thing be clear. Court rulings are not above criticism. Criticism keeps us on our toes and helps us do a better job.

      Court rulings can overstep, and they can further intrude upon the prerogatives of other branches. Courts thus speak with the knowledge of their imperfections but also with a sense that they instill a fidelity to law that would be sorely missed in their absence. It can rescue the government from its lassitude and recalibrate imbalances too long left unexamined.

      The knowledge that executive energy is a perishable quality understandably breeds impatience with the courts. Courts, in turn, are frequently attuned to caution and are often uneasy with the Executive Branch’s breakneck pace. And the differences do not end there.

      The Executive is inherently focused upon ends; the Judiciary much more so upon means. Ends are bestowed on the Executive by electoral outcomes. Means are entrusted to all of government, but most especially to the Judiciary by the Constitution itself.

      Reply
    7. 7.

      WaterGirl

      Calling out the dictator

      Wilkinson devotes the next part of his ruling to a direct critique of President Trump. He doesn’t use his name, but he takes aim at things Trump has said in meetings and to the media lately. First, he blasts the idea of deporting U.S. citizens to foreign prisons where they will be out of the reach of our laws:

      The Executive possesses enormous powers to prosecute and to deport, but with powers come restraints. If today the Executive claims the right to deport without due process and in disregard of court orders, what assurance will there be tomorrow that it will not deport American citizens and then disclaim responsibility to bring them home?

      Wilkinson no doubt has in mind Trump’s recent remarks to CNN about deporting “homegrown criminals,” which he claimed he’d “love to do.”

      Reply
    9. 9.

      MoCaAce

      Until the judiciary grows a pair and imprisons ICE or DOJ or other executive branch officials, all the eloquent legalese is just playing to the history books.

      Reply
    10. 10.

      They Call Me Noni

      Thank you for this.  Rachel Maddow went over these same points last night and it is all just as scary the second time but it is very reassuring that Judge Wilkinson is having none of it and took “The Executive” out behind the woodshed.

      Reply
    11. 11.

      rikyrah

      @WaterGirl:

      Indeed. The White House keeps pressing unfounded claims that Abrego García MS-13, that he’s a criminal, that he deserved to be deported. They say that to the cameras, but why not then just prove it in a court?

       

      The government says it from a podium.

      It says it in tv interviews.

       

      You wanna know where it HAS NOT SAID IT?

       

      In any court documents where they would have to put their name to a lie, in front of a judge, and risk losing their law license.

      Funny how that is.

      Reply
    13. 13.

      Old School

      Exclusive: Wife of man wrongfully deported to El Salvador speaks out

      Jennifer Vasquez Sura, the wife of Kilmar Abrego Garcia, speaks with “GMA” about the legal battle involving her husband now playing out in the courts.

      Reply
    15. 15.

      Old School

      After days of denying that he knew much about Kilmar Abrego Garcia, President Donald Trump on Friday said he knew Abrego Garcia was “unbelievably bad” and called him an “illegal alien” and “foreign terrorist.”

      Trump, while speaking to reporters, had an aide fetch a piece of paper he said had information about Abrego Garcia. He said it came from the State Department and “very legitimate sources.”

      “I’m just giving you what they handed to me but this is supposed to be certified stuff,” he said.

      Reply
    20. 20.

      WaterGirl

      @rikyrah: Just like in Trump 1.0 – their lawyers (mostly) won’t state the lies under oath.  FFOTUS lives in the court of public opinion, courts be damned.

      Looking forward to the day he finds out that the court of public opinion has turned against him.

      Reply
    21. 21.

      Geminid

      @WaterGirl: In the 1970s,  J. Harvie Wilkinson developed a reputation as conservative legal scholar while teaching at the Universty of Virginia School of Law. Ronald Reagan’s people thought they had put a reliable, long-serving conservative voice on the 4th Circuit Court of Appeals when he was appointed 40 years ago.

      In fact, they did. Wilkinson may be every bit as conservative now as he was then. But this is a radical, lawless administration, and the 80 year-old Wilkinson wasn’t about to let this chance pass without calling that out. I think the younger Republican Supreme Court Justices will be reluctant to overrule Wilkinson.

      Reply
    24. 24.

      H.E.Wolf

      @WaterGirl: ​Does this not look to you like the judiciary growing a pair??

       Yes! They’re finding their ovaries. :)

      Thanks for this informative post and the further details in the early comments.

      Reply
    25. 25.

      Chetan Murthy

      Are we supposed to cheer?  Really?  Really?  oh, alright, I’ll give a little shout, sure. Sure.  https://www.eschatonblog.com/2025/04/bret-stephens-welcome-to-resistance.html

      So this is a column that I really need to write because it really rankles — I’m a U-Chicago person. I have a fundamental commitment to concepts of academic freedom, which include the right of students and professors to espouse views, which I find mistaken, wrong and even loathsome.

      And so what Trump has now done is turned a legitimate grievance — and specifically Jewish grievance — into a tool to undermine and potentially destroy a value, which I think is a core Jewish value, which is the value of debate, dissent, reason, inquiry, criticism and so on. The one mistake we cannot make is we cannot get on the side of illiberalism. We cannot get on the side of people who pretend to be our friends but seek to undermine a political order centered on the notion of the freedom of conscience and thought, the freedom of and the dignity of the individual.

      Even Bretbug has his limits, I guess.

      Reply
    26. 26.

      WaterGirl

      @stinger: I am heartened by these judicial rulings in the past few days.

      I think that as soon as a good number of Trump voters begin realize, “oh shit, this could happen to me” in bigger numbers, things are going to change drastically.

      A friend of mine is married to an African man who has lived in the US for 15 or 20 years, and is a US citizen.  They are going to France with their two kids this summer and I asked if they were worried.

      They are aware, they are concerned, but they are moving forward as an act of faith.  I asked her if the kids (maybe 8 and 14?) are aware of what’s going on.

      She said one of them (guessing the older one but I don’t know) came home from school and asked what would happen “if daddy gets deported”.

      Even the young kids in schools are talking.

      Reply
    28. 28.

      Geminid

      @WaterGirl: Judge Wilkinson came of professional age ten years before political conservatives founded the Federalist Society, and began the process of capturing and politicizing later generations of conservative lawyers.

      Reply
    29. 29.

      Omnes Omnibus

      Ernesto Miranda was not a good person.  It doesn’t fucking matter.  If rights aren’t universal, they are privilege.

      For those of you saying this doesn’t matter, you are wrong.  You can’t have enforcement of decisions unless you have the decision.  These judges are doing their jobs.

      Reply
    30. 30.

      RevRick

      I read somewhere today that Trump’s tariffs are wreaking havoc on trade, as evidenced by patterns of container ships moving in and out of the port of Los Angeles. So, I went to their website and found this data from March 2025 compared to March 2024:

      Inbound (imports) : 385,530 containers  +1.58%

      Outbound (exports): 122,975 containers -15.02%

      Empty: 269,898 containers – +23%

      Considering that it takes 15-30 days for a container ship to traverse the Pacific from China and 27-40 for such a ship to reach East Coast ports, the numbers will lag for the inbound shipping. But reports from the port of LA indicate that traffic is now down worse than the height of COVID.

      Reply
    31. 31.

      Mr. Bemused Senior

      @WaterGirl: … but he is the rare republican who still believes in the rule of law.

      I choose to believe they are not so rare. Among current office holders, yes, rare. In the total population, less rare.

      Reply
    32. 32.

      rikyrah

      @WaterGirl:

      @stinger: I am heartened by these judicial rulings in the past few days.

      I think that as soon as a good number of Trump voters begin realize, “oh shit, this could happen to me” in bigger numbers, things are going to change drastically.

       

      I recall what happened at Grassley’s TownHall.

      In Iowa

      Guy asked.

      Are they gonna bring that guy back?

      now, he didn’t know his name. But, he knew what had happened. And, he knew that it was wrong, and that he should be brought back to the USA.

      This happened in Iowa.

      Reply
    34. 34.

      MoCaAce

      @WaterGirl: it’s a start.  I’m certain this will be ignored.  When it is, I will allow myself a sliver of hope that some mid-level functionary will spend time behind bars… to be joined by others until the US complies.

      Reply
    35. 35.

      RevRick

      @Chetan Murthy: The Jewish Midrash is an ongoing discussion about the meaning of the Jewish Scripture, and the word Midrash means dispute. So, yes debate is a central, core value of Judaism.

      Reply
    36. 36.

      JoyceH

      The other day, I heard a panel discusser mention to disparage the Dem conventional wisdom to not talk about the renditions because that’s the distraction that Trump wants us to be talking about and we should be talking instead about tariffs and the stock market. The fellow said but this is important and we have to talk about it.

      Great, but that got me thinking about that Democratic conventional wisdom to not attack Trump on immigration and cultural issues because those are his strengths so talk about the “kitchen table issues” blah blah blah. Geez, does no one in this outfit remember The Genius Of Carl Rove? His tactic was to attack the opponent not on his weaknesses, but on his strengths and reframe those strengths as weaknesses. You can take issue with the way he did that, but hey, he beat our guys with it.

      So DO go after Trump on immigration! It’s his strength because too many people have bought the lie that violent aliens are pouring over the border and rampaging across the land. Refute that, show who is really being deported, the housekeepers and the ag workers and the PhD students. And especially pound on Trump’s concentration camp in El Salvador and call it just that. It was no hot mike “accident” that Trump came into the Oval telling Bukele to build five more prisons. He meant for us to hear that.

      Reply
    37. 37.

      Steve LaBonne

      @oldgold: Who are going to have to decide whether they will be happy being minor courtiers in an absolute monarchy. I have no confidence that they will come down on the right side.

      Reply
    38. 38.

      anastasio beaverhausen

      Has no one considered the possibility that Mr.Kilmar Abrego Garcia is no longer alive?  A distinct possibility and it would explain a lot, Van Hollen not being allowed to meet him, etc.

      Reply
    42. 42.

      WaterGirl

      @anastasio beaverhausen:

      :: waves ::

      Van Hollen was able to meet with him after all yesterday.  There is a photo.

      And yes, many of us thought there was a better than even chance that he was dead.  Relieved to find that he is not.

      Reply
    43. 43.

      MoCaAce

      @WaterGirl: I understand this is a necessary step in the judicial process.  Hope is a rare thing these days.  We have all seen too many instances where the judiciary has failed to stand up to Mango Mussolini.

      Reply
    44. 44.

      comrade scotts agenda of rage

      David Brooks- “rise up, we have nothing to lose but our chains.”

      Bill Kristol- “Social democracy is better than fascism. Let’s go AOC!”

      Matt Yglesias- “not sure fighting authoritarianism polls well.”

      Reply
    45. 45.

      rikyrah

      Sean Taj
      @TajSean
      May 2020 had 51 shipments blank sailings. Over 80 so far in April 2025. COVID will look like good times.
      7:54 PM · Apr 17, 2025
      https://x.com/TajSean/status/1913033422978625988

      Craig Fuller 🛩🚛🚂⚓️
      @FreightAlley
      Many truckers I’ve spoken with don’t realize how quickly container volumes have collapsed.

      Starting in May, port freight out of California will be almost eliminated.

      Its going to be a bloodbath in dray, followed by intermodal, and then a collapse in I-20 & I-40 trucking.
      https://x.com/FreightAlley/status/1913035787634901263

      Reply
    46. 46.

      rikyrah

      @JoyceH:

      So DO go after Trump on immigration! It’s his strength because too many people have bought the lie that violent aliens are pouring over the border and rampaging across the land. Refute that, show who is really being deported, the housekeepers and the ag workers and the PhD students. And especially pound on Trump’s concentration camp in El Salvador and call it just that. It was no hot mike “accident” that Trump came into the Oval telling Bukele to build five more prisons. He meant for us to hear that.

       

      Absolutely. Like we’re supposed to be afraid of that.

      This country has Max and SuperMAX prisons.

      We’ve found places for those who do international terrorism.

      We have spaces for our own criminals.

      Reply
    47. 47.

      Marc

      There is another that we are still focused on one individual, Kilmar Abrego García, when there are already hundreds of others in the same situation.  Or millions, if you look at it another way.

      Once again, the messaging writes itself: This is not an immigration issue, this is a rule of law issue, if Garcia and others can be taken off US streets by undercover CBP thugs and deported without due process, there is nothing to stop them from doing it to you.

      Those who think this will stop with a few bad hombres are wrong, I’m afraid.  This is just a product trial to see how much they can get away with.  Next product trial will involve some folks from a SuperMax: you liberals care more about murderers than you do about the safety of good White Christian Americans…

      Reply
    48. 48.

      FNW

      I’m pleased to see Jay Kuo quoted here.  He has a really good substack that often breaks down in lay language what is going on in legal opinions.

      Reply
    52. 52.

      JoyceH

      @rikyrah: Frankly, it rather surprises me that Trump and Co have been so open about their foreign concentration camp. Yeah, Trump ran on immigration, but I don’t think he ever suggested during the campaign that he’d round people up and ship them without a hearing to a foreign hellhole from which they will never emerge.

      Obviously he’s doing this because he wants to and he enjoys the power and the sight of all that misery. But doing staged photo ops with the prisoners posed in the background is simply bizarre. He assumes his supporters and most of the country support this too. I think he’s wrong.

      As I said on another venue “The Germans in the 1930s never saw photos and videos from Hitler’s concentration camps. What’s our excuse?”

      Reply
    54. 54.

      Ramalama

      @rikyrah: Yikes! I’m going to be in California in May.

      My wife from France and also Canada has decided to opt out of an American adventure at this time.

      Reply
    57. 57.

      Raoul Paste

      I can already see the DOJ seizing on a little snippet. “ Ends are bestowed on the Executive by electoral outcomes,…”, and driving a truck through it

      They will twist anything they can

      Reply
    58. 58.

      rikyrah

      @JoyceH:

      Obviously he’s doing this because he wants to and he enjoys the power and the sight of all that misery. But doing staged photo ops with the prisoners posed in the background is simply bizarre. He assumes his supporters and most of the country support this too. I think he’s wrong.

      As I said on another venue “The Germans in the 1930s never saw photos and videos from Hitler’s concentration camps. What’s our excuse?”

       

      And, the fact,

      THE FACT

      that they said Mr. Garcia

       

      WAS A MUTHAPHUCKIN’ ADMINISTRATIVE ERROR FROM THE BEGINNING….

      Then, you have that foul Noem, doing some version of cruelty porn pictures at that prison…

      The visuals here, show the differences between us.

      You have MASKED MEN snatching up a young woman and not identifying themselves.

      You have videos of them BREAKING WINDOWS OF CARS WHILE SHOUTING THE NAME OF SOMEONE NOT IN THE CAR…

      You have images of children in pajamas being taken away in handcuffs…

      All of these just stiffen my resolve against them, and my disgust at everyone who voted for this.

      Reply
    59. 59.

      Omnes Omnibus

      @Raoul Paste: Fuck ‘em.  They are not ten feet tall and bulletproof.

      By the way, jailing people for civil contempt does not require DOJ collaboration.  Court can deputize others to do it.

      Reply
    61. 61.

      Marc

      @rikyrah: It’s not about prison space, it’s about removing people from the jurisdiction of US courts and sentencing them to concentration camps without wasting money on silly things like investigations, trials, or determining guilt or innocence.  It is also intended to act as a deterrent against those who might be tempted to protest.

      Reply
    62. 62.

      Flanders Other Neighbor

      My kids are studying abroad, and I told them both this summer no visitors unless they are US citizens.  I don’t care if the parents are okay with it, I don’t want any part of some poor kid getting arrested for wanting to see California.

      Reply
    64. 64.

      rikyrah

      @Marc: @rikyrah: It’s not about prison space, it’s about removing people from the jurisdiction of US courts and sentencing them to concentration camps without wasting money on silly things like investigations, trials, or determining guilt or innocence.  It is also intended to act as a deterrent against those who might be tempted to protest.

       

      true to all of that.

      but, it still needs to be pointed out. We have enough prison space. And, we have places for the most heinous of our criminals.

      Reply
    67. 67.

      Betty

      @JoyceH: The economic story is going to take of care of itself when the reality of Trump’s policies hit home very soon. So I agree that pushing back on the demonization of immigrants and vastly overstating any danger they pose is a better thing to focus on. That and the rampant destruction of the government at the hands of Musk.

      Reply
    68. 68.

      hrprogressive

      Unless, or until, someone in the federal court system either orders the US Marshalls to go do something and they either do or don’t do it, and/or the federal courts deputize someone else and they do/don’t do it, these are all just words in digital or printed ink.

      I’m not saying they do not matter or are not relevant.

      I am saying until some form of concrete action either occurs, or is refused, the Public is still going to display apathy.

      None of this is “Real” to anyone who isn’t terminally online, and/or a direct victim or family member of the victim, of the regime.

      The real Crossing of the Rubicon is really close, but has not yet happened yet.

      And unfortunately, I suspect no amount of social media activity, sternly worded letters, or even AOC/Bernie Rallies is gonna get the attention of The Masses.

      Reply
    69. 69.

      dc

      None of the unfortunates sent to El Salvador were deported, they were sent to a foreign prison. That’s not what deportation looks like. No due process on the deportation and no due process on being sent to any prison, more so, one in El Salvador. Bring them all back, stop paying Bukele to torture them, and if after due process any of them need to be deported, deport them to their country of origin and if after due process any of them are found guilty in a US court, send them to the appropriate prison in this country.

      Reply
    70. 70.

      circular reasoning

      @Flanders Other Neighbor: my oldest has a multi-national online friend group that have been together in that space for about 10 years. They had been planning to meet in person for the first time this August and stay with us for a week. Sadly, we have had to tell them that is not a safe idea now. What a horrible reality to find myself having to tell people that the USA is not safe for travel!

      Reply
    71. 71.

      Martin

      @Omnes Omnibus: Can Trump pardon those found guilty? (I think no – I think that’s one of the only exceptions to the pardon power) and Trump himself cannot be found guilty because USSC immunized him, no?

      I suspect Trump will be able to find sycophants willing to continue this even with the threat of jail time faster than the courts can hold them to account because good christ the courts do not seem to be able to operate with the speed necessary.

      Reply
    72. 72.

      rikyrah

      @Betty:

      @JoyceH: The economic story is going to take of care of itself when the reality of Trump’s policies hit home very soon. So I agree that pushing back on the demonization of immigrants and vastly overstating any danger they pose is a better thing to focus on. That and the rampant destruction of the government at the hands of Musk

       

      it is so coming.

      Those China cancellations of soybeans, beef, and Boeing..

      That’s REAL people seeing their incomes dry up.

      One of these 1st of the months, THAT SS CHECK IS NOT GOING TO DEPOSIT.

      These Medicaid Cuts.Said it before, will say it again..

      The poster child for Medicaid needs to be Sally and Chad’s Grandma and Grandpa.

      THAT is who takes up the highest percentage of Medicaid dollars.

      Reply
    73. 73.

      rikyrah

      @dc:

      None of the unfortunates sent to El Salvador were deported, they were sent to a foreign prison. That’s not what deportation looks like. No due process on the deportation and no due process on being sent to any prison, more so, one in El Salvador. Bring them all back, stop paying Bukele to torture them, and if after due process any of them need to be deported, deport them to their country of origin and if after due process any of them are found guilty in a US court, send them to the appropriate prison in this country.

       

      once again..

      75%

      75%

      75%

      75%

      of those sent to El Salvador

       

      HAD NO CRIMINAL RECORD

      HAD NO CRIMINAL RECORD

      Reply
    75. 75.

      Baud

       

      A federal judge on Friday blocked the Trump administration from deporting noncitizens to countries other than their place of origin without due process.

       

      U.S. District Judge Brian Murphy issued an injunction that bars the Trump administration from deporting any noncitizen to a country not explicitly mentioned in their order or removal without first allowing them to raise concerns about their safety

      Reply
    76. 76.

      Martin

      Steep levies on Chinese-made ships arriving at U.S. ports have been proposed, up to as much as $1.5 million, as part of a plan to bring more ship manufacturing back to the U.S., a policy which has bipartisan support.

      More US ship manufacturing. How many years do they think consumers will tolerate higher costs for the first container ship shipbuilding facility to be built, then the first ship to be produced, which will lower costs on ONE shipment. Is there even a US company willing to finance that? I can’t imagine there is.

      Reply
    77. 77.

      RevRick

      @Kristine:
      The Mack Truck plant a few miles away just announced layoffs of 250-350 workers due to economic uncertainty caused by U.S. tariffs. In other words, demand for new trucks is falling off a cliff, because there’s way less goods to ship.
      Meanwhile, the Philadelphia Fed Manufacturing Index is absolutely cratering:  -26.4. Which makes sense, because manufacturing requires all sorts of inputs, and according to the US National Association of Manufacturers a whopping 56% of goods imported to the US are manufacturing inputs.

      So, to answer your question, yes. But that may be the least of our problems with the economy.

      Reply
    78. 78.

      dnfree

      Now this, in Florida….

      A U.S.-born American citizen was being detained at the request of immigration authorities Thursday despite an advocate showing his U.S. birth certificate in court and a county judge finding no reason for him to be considered an “illegal alien” who illegally entered Florida.

      Juan Carlos Lopez-Gomez, 20, was arrested Thursday evening by Florida Highway Patrol and charged under a state immigration law that has been temporarily blocked since early this month. Details of Gomez-Lopez’s arrest and detention were first reported by the Florida Phoenix news site.

      After inspecting his birth certificate, Leon County Judge LaShawn Riggans said during the hearing that “this is indeed an authentic document,” but that she did not have jurisdiction beyond finding no probable cause for the charge.

      Immigration and Customs Enforcement’s role is to enforce immigration laws that generally apply to noncitizens. American citizens are protected under the Fourth Amendment of the Constitution from unreasonable search and seizure, arrest and detention.

      Nonetheless, he remains detained locally at ICE’s request, said Thomas Kennedy, a spokesperson at the Florida Immigrant Coalition who attended Thursday’s hearing.

      “Everything tracks for him being sent to an ICE detention center,” he told NBC News in a phone interview.

      Reply
    80. 80.

      Martin

      @RevRick: I’ve mentioned before my son’s company is moving their US based manufacturing out of the US because the cost of the tariffs. They have more business outside the US than inside and they can’t write contracts because they have no idea what their imported component costs are going to be with tariffs changing daily. They were already planning to do this due to difficulty getting the skilled labor they need but the tariffs just cemented it.

      And they’re exactly the kind of business that the tariffs are supposed to incentivize to keep manufacturing here. They were easy – they still have their US factory, they still have their workers. Nope. Their customers agreed the move was the best decision, as they’re reconsidering keeping their own manufacturing in the US.

      Reply
    83. 83.

      coin operated

      @rikyrah:

      Those China cancellations of soybeans, beef, and Boeing..

      And what people do not understand…those exports are *never* coming back. China is done with us.

      Reply
    84. 84.

      Scout211

      @WaterGirl: Van Hollen was able to meet with him after all yesterday.  There is a photo.

      And look at what the the official White House account on X posted a few hours ago.

      In case you don’t want to click over, it’s a screen shot of the NYT front page with Van Hollen and Abrego Garcia, with red pen crossing out the headlines and their version of “fixed it for you” with red pen written in.  “MS-13 illegal alien” is written in, “wrongly” crossed out  of the “wrongly deported” and “who’s never coming back” added at the end.

      These people are beyond horrible.

      And they can claim it, but can they prove it?

      Reply
    85. 85.

      Bill Arnold

      @Old School:

      President Donald Trump on Friday said he knew Abrego Garcia was “unbelievably bad”

      Orange Antichrist calls somebody else “unbelievably bad”? Mr. Trump, who has racked up around 40 thousand documented lies just in the last decade, expects to be believed?

      Reply
    86. 86.

      Omnes Omnibus

      @Martin: Civil contempt cannot be pardoned because, by definition, it is not a criminal offense.  Civil contempt is used to coerce compliance with court orders. A simple popular culture example is the judge in My Cousin Vinnie putting Pesci in Jail overnight for not complying with the court’s dress code.  You remain in contempt and being fined or incarcerated until you comply.

      Reply
    88. 88.

      frosty

      @Old School: ​ … supposed to be certified stuff.

      T$%^&p always ALWAYS has a weasel word. “supposed to be”. Nice one, buried in his rant and gets him off the hook. I’ve been making a hobby of looking for them – there’s always one there somewhere.​

      Reply
    89. 89.

      TEL

      @JoyceH: Is is really “Dem conventional wisdom” though? There are an awful lot of elected Dems talking about this all over the place – on TV, in town halls, in op-eds, etc.

      Reply
    90. 90.

      Martin

      @coin operated: Well, China was sure to give those contracts to our allies, so if we do want them back, we have to tell Australia, etc. to fuck off. China understood the assignment.

      Reply
    94. 94.

      TEL

      @JoyceH: I would agree with that. I am seeing some news headlines from the usual suspects suggesting “dems in disarray” over this. I’m just not seeing it with many elected dems. Maybe they’re learning?

      Reply
    95. 95.

      Chetan Murthy

      @rikyrah: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/apr/15/merwil-gutierrez-venezuelan-teen-deported-el-salvador
      The elder Gutiérrez reportedly said he overheard Ice agents saying that his son had not been the person they had come to get.
      “The officers grabbed him and two other boys right at the entrance to our building. One said: ‘No, he’s not the one,’ like they were looking for someone else. But the other said: ‘Take him anyway,’” he recalled.

      Reply
    96. 96.

      cain

      @WaterGirl:

      That’s gonna be interesting conversations when they come back from school. Prior they were upset that “americans killed native indians” or some such (eg woke). I wonder if MAGA parents are going to gas-light their kids?

      Reply
    104. 104.

      hotshoe

      @Marc:

      I’ve wondered myself what I could/should stock up on — looking at what we most import from China, the thing we should stock up now is SHOES. 60% of shoes sold in US come from China. (And almost 99% total of shoes sold in US are imported, from Vietnam, Indonesia, Brazil, Mexico, etc, so all will be affected by tariffs in any case).

      Everyone who runs or walks for exercise will want a new pair of athletic shoes sometime this year to replace their old worn out ones.

      Get them this week while the store still has your size in stock. It’s not just that the price will rise; it’s that they will be unavailable at any price. Forty-foot containers of shoes from China simply will not leave the docks heading for port of Long Beach under Dumpster’s Trade-War regime. China isn’t desperate for US dollars. China has other trading partners. The Chinese government doesn’t have to worry about harming its citizens by denying export of goods to US.

      Well, that’s my prediction. I would be glad to be proven wrong. I don’t want my kids having to cross into Canada to try on a new pair of shoes next fall.

      Reply
    110. 110.

      dc

      @Baud: Good news. As things should be, of course, this lawless regime will publish a trolls message from the official Whitehouse account and then not obey the order. They all need to be arrested, tried and jailed, with the due process they don’t recognize for anyone else, of course.

      Reply
    112. 112.

      hotshoe

      @WaterGirl: ​

      Yeah, though it’s a different kind of shoes: horse shoes forged out of hot steel ;) hard way to make a living but Mr.hotshoe’s work paid for the roof over our family’s heads.

      If ya asked me what myself-singular should be named for, maybe Moka. Chocolate plus coffee, yes!

      Reply
    113. 113.

      Miss Bianca

      @Chetan Murthy:

      Ooh, we cannot get on the side of “illiberalism”. Does that mean that its opposite – or, “liberalism”, let’s call it – can’t be all that bad? Bretbug? Is that what you’re saying?

      Reply
    115. 115.

      Chetan Murthy

      @Miss Bianca: Since I can’t read the original (FTFNYT, but also paywall) I’m going on what Atrios excerpted.  And giving Bretbug good faith (which yeah, I shouldn’t, but ….) it seems he realizes that using the free speech of Palestine supporters against them, esp. to deport them, is just too chilling, and even though it is in support of Israel, he sees that it’s wrong.  Which, yeah, good Bret, have a cookie.  I guess.  I. Guess.

      Reply
    117. 117.

      Chetan Murthy

      @Miss Bianca: Seeing The Bulwark being so fucking strident, when, yeah, even mainstream leftists (not talkin’ about Jacobin, Nation) aren’t, is ….. yeah, a little mind-boggling.  B/c The Bulwark -has- been pretty damn strident of late.

      Reply
    118. 118.

      Tim in SF

      I gave up smoking some years ago which is really a shame because I feel like I need to smoke a few after reading that ruling.

      I was like Meg Ryan in When Harry Met Sally when reading that ruling.

      Reply
    119. 119.

      lou

      @JoyceH: ​
       
      This! This! This!

      Also, I think stories of Japanese doctoral students getting deported because they caught more fish than their quota, or a Canadian businesswoman locked in a detention center for weeks, or a French scientist turned away because of his social media comments is going to have a wearing effect on the American public as well. (MAGA cultists excepted).

      Reply
    123. 123.

      Ruckus

      @WaterGirl:

      As should everyone.

      This is a take over of OUR government. Not quite the equivalent of an overthrow but close enough that it has to be extinguished and completely stopped.

      I was thinking this afternoon about my stint in the US military, during a time of war, and we didn’t act like this is a dictatorship. Which is what shitforbrains and his buddies are doing. Acting like they own the place and can do whatever the hell they want. And that is 1000% opposite the federal oath that I took when I was in the military. And 1000% opposite the one shitforbrains has taken twice.

      Reply
    125. 125.

      YY_Sima Qian

      I would recommend that you all start to stock up immediately. A lot of businesses will not wait for the new tariffs to be assessed on their incoming shipments. They will take the opportunity to jack up prices almost immediately on goods already imported at the much lower tariffs, pocket the fatter margins, & blame it on the new tariffs. This is especially true of goods imported from somewhere other than the PRC, but Parachute imports, too. Seller’s inflation!

      Reply
    129. 129.

      Sally

      @WaterGirl: I just don’t think any number of trump voters think this could happen to them. Not will they ever. They KNOW they are good people. They attend the right churches, vote for the right people, know the right people. Even when they do something wrong (DUI, tax evasion), they still know they are the good people. It will never happen to them. And if, when it does happen to one of the “good” ones, well, they probably weren’t quite “good” enough.

      Reply
    130. 130.

      Jay

      @YY_Sima Qian:

      The coffee beans are Ecuador/Columbian, and until alternate purchase/shipping is arranged, they go from Columbia to the US, ( US Tariff, 10%), then from a US distributor to Canada, ( Canadian counter tariff, 25%).

      People forget that the tariff’s are cumulative if they are not point to point.

      Reply
    132. 132.

      Jay

      @YY_Sima Qian:

      A few years ago, they were partially acquired by an Italian Corp, so I suspect that the travel path will be Ecuador/Columbia, Italy, Canada, 0% tariffs when that get’s arranged.

      Roughly 80% of Canadian Imports, are ship/rail/truck through the US. That will change big time.

      Reply

    Leave a Comment

    Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *

    If you don't see both the Visual and the Text tab on the editor, click here to refresh.

    Clear Comment

    To reply to more than one person, click the X to save & close the box.