“The consequence will be empty shelves in US stores in a few weeks and Covid-like shortages for consumers and for firms using Chinese products as intermediate goods.” — Apollo Global Management Chief Economist Torsten Slok.
— Bruno J. Navarro (@brunojnavarro.bsky.social) April 30, 2025 at 3:20 PM
Between the latest data on the trade deficit, federal spending, and oil drilling, Trump is falling far short on the metrics he claims to care the most about.
— Steve Benen (@stevebenen.com) April 30, 2025 at 3:34 PM
i’m a disposable income no children household and i make good money and the long suffering mrs art thief makes more money than i, so it is fucking wild that household people voted for this. your shit is about to get rocked. did you not care? think it wasn’t real? he was kidding?
just wild— not an art thief (@famousartthief.bsky.social) April 30, 2025 at 7:35 PM
people really like racism, i understand this. but do they also not like dollars in the bank?
— not an art thief (@famousartthief.bsky.social) April 30, 2025 at 7:37 PM
It is simple: they never believed it would actually affect them.
— Travis Miller (@justtmill.bsky.social) April 30, 2025 at 7:42 PM
On The Road – Deputinize America – Malta III
Aimai
I literally spent last night dreaming that I was back in the covid experience of going from store to store trying to stock up on food and things to take care of my family who were sheltering with me. I distinctly realized—for the first time in dream scape but now, in the morning, for real, that I needed to advise my daughters to get a year’s supply of menstrual stuff to be covered for the coming shortages. Woke up to this realization. Also I have some Narcan that was given to me along with meds for my recent surgery. I need to find someone in the community to give it to since the feds are cutting off narcan.
Baud
Fake news. He has no standards.
Princess
Economy shrank in the first quarter. It will surely shrink again this quarter. Isn’t that the textbook definition of recession?
Baud
@Princess:
If the economy weren’t terrible, Trump wouldn’t try to blame it on Biden.
SFAW
@Princess:
Bah, what do economists and textbooks know? If Shitgibbon says the economy is doing great — THE BEST EVAH — then who are we to disagree?
I gotta say, when I was growing up during Nixon, and an adult during W, I never thought this country would see a president who is an order of magnitude worse, nor one who is actively trying to destroy America.
ETA: And for the math nerds: yes, I meant “order of magnitude,” but am willing to consider he’s only five times as bad.
Chief Oshkosh
@Aimai: We just laid in 6mos worth of our favorite t-paper…
Matt McIrvin
@Baud: Trump’s standard is “is this flattering to Trump?” The things he presents as being graded on will change from moment to moment based on whatever looks good for Trump. I’ve seen people argue that he thinks the stock market is his benchmark, he’s all about low prices… No. He was all about those things because they looked flattering to himself at some point.
Baud
All Trump will hear is “greatest man”.
New Deal democrat
@Princess:
No. Recessions are called by the NBER, which makes use of a number of metrics, not just GDP. The definition you cite is a shorthand used by some on Wall Street.
Also, the reason GDP was negative in Q1 was because of a massive increase in imports – the second largest in 50+ years – as producers and consumers like tried to beat the tariffs.
Jackie
@Baud:
“All Trump will hear is “greatest man”.”
I’d love to see his reaction to that.
Matt McIrvin
@SFAW: In astronomy, a step in magnitude is a factor of the fifth root of 100 in brightness, a factor of about two and a half. And it’s backwards, with smaller or negative numbers indicating more brightness, so I guess it’s the reciprocal of that really.
How did that happen? Well, ancient astronomers just ranked stars by how bright they looked relative to one another, “first magnitude” for the really bright ones through “sixth magnitude” for something you could barely see, with a step in magnitude just indicating what they thought was a significant difference in brightness. Since visual perception is roughly logarithmic, that kind of eyeball exercise tends to give you a logarithmic scale.
In modern times, astronomers translating the traditional notion of magnitude to an objective photometric measure just made that precise, with the difference between first and sixth magnitude pegged at a factor of 100. And they extended it, ranking the very brightest objects in the sky as having negative magnitude, and things you can only see through a telescope having bigger positive magnitudes. Once they figured out how far away some stars were, they introduced the idea of “absolute magnitude,” that is, how bright something would look if you saw it at a standard distance, rather than how far away it really is.
Jeffg166
Happy May Day Comrades.
Baud
@Jackie:
His reaction will probably be to have armed ICE agents at his town halls.
Ohio Mom
For the past week or so, every night I dream multiple times that I am falling, which wakes me up.
I take this to me I am in a quiet panic. I feel the way I did before my mastectomy, I am passively being pulled along into something catastrophic.
Meanwhile, all around me is calm and pretty — outside, spring precedes apace. The trees have fully leafed out, the birds are chirping up a storm, flowers are blooming.
Every morning, Ohio Dad makes me coffee, I pick the paper up from its place on the driveway. It’s quite a contrast, what I see around me and what I know is coming.
The only upside is, maybe the economic disaster Trump created will be the end of him.
Soapdish
That last Bluesky exchange is just so spot on.
Baud
@Jeffg166:
Workers of the World
Unite!Divide over Trans Rights!David Collier-Brown
@Baud:
I agree, but I don’t think standards even come into the picture. With Mr Dear Leader President, it’s what he can get away with. If a standard gets in his way, then it never existed.
He’s his own Ministry of Truth
David Collier-Brown
@Chief Oshkosh: If your near the border, you can smuggle it in from Canada. We still trade with the the rest of the world.
comrade scotts agenda of rage
@Jeffg166:
Appropriate given we have a North Korean-style leader.
New Deal democrat
Since I updated COVID yesterday, I thought I’d update information on the measles outbreak today. The big surprise is that it is a North American outbreak, and Oh, Canada, why are you having by far the worst one on a population adjusted basis?
Per the WHO:
https://www.who.int/emergencies/disease-outbreak-news/item/2025-DON565
Between 1 January and 12 April 2025, Canada reported 1069 confirmed and probable cases of measles from seven provinces: Alberta, British Columbia, Manitoba, Ontario, Prince Edward Island, Quebec, and Saskatchewan. These far exceed the 177 confirmed and probable cases reported in 2024, representing the highest annual case count since the country achieved measles elimination in 1998.
Between 1 January and 16 April 2025, Mexico confirmed 421 measles cases: …. Cases were reported in Campeche, Chihuahua (including one death), Oaxaca, Querétaro, Sinaloa, Sonora, Tamaulipas, and Zacatecas.
Per the CDC, the U.S. has already seen more than triple the total number of measles cases last year with the majority of them in Texas.
https://www.cdc.gov/measles/data-research/index.html
As of April 24, 2025, a total of 884 confirmed measles cases were reported by 30 jurisdictions: Alaska, Arkansas, California, Colorado, Florida, Georgia, Hawaii, Illinois, Indiana, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maryland, Michigan, Minnesota, Missouri, Montana, New Jersey, New Mexico, New York City, New York State, Ohio, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, Tennessee, Texas, Vermont, Virginia, and Washington. (Increase of 84 from prior week).
97% unvaccinated or unknown
94 hospitalizations so far this year
3 confirmed deaths
Vs. 285 cases in all of 2024
The Texas Department of State Health Services reported on April 29:
https://www.dshs.texas.gov/news-alerts/measles-outbreak-2025
At this time, 663 cases have been confirmed since late January. This is an increase of 17 since the April 25 update
Eighty-seven of the patients have been hospitalized. This number is the total number of people hospitalized over the course of the outbreak. It is not the current number of people in the hospital. Today’s report includes 23 additional hospitalizations from earlier in the outbreak. The numbers may increase as DSHS receives records for earlier cases.
There have been two fatalities in school-aged children who lived in the outbreak area.
Prior to vaccinations, the US averaged 2M-3M cases per year – which is about equal to the number of annual births. Virtually every child caught it sooner or later. At the present rate, there will be about 2500-3000 measles cases in the US this year.
“Herd immunity” requires a 95% vaccination rate. Currently, about 9% of children are unvaccinated, per the CDC. That suggests there is a lot of ability for a much bigger measles outbreak in areas with a low vaccination rate.
The CDC is now publishing measles outbreak updates every Friday. (Sigh)
schrodingers_cat
But we dare not call the enablers of this administration either stupid or evil.
Librettist
Bothsides….
https://www.bangkokpost.com/world/3002834/a-coffin-for-pol-pots-memory-50-years-after-phnom-penhs-fall
Jackie
@New Deal democrat: I read somewhere, and now can’t find it, that Mexico has issued a US and Canada Travel Alert due to the measles outbreak in both countries.
Baud
@Librettist:
When did the NYT buy the Bangkok Post?
Trivia Man
I know of a local company that has a solid portion of their sales in Asia. That area was growing quickly but now they are worried. To protect that business they are looking to contract out all that production (packaged food for retail) to someplace in asia. Bonus: shipping costs go down!
as a professional in supply chain, you can take my word on this. Shipping to asia costs more than trucking it 1,000 miles in the US.
Gin & Tonic
Good to have an Anne Laurie post with my breakfast again.
eclare
I just read an article that said that RFK Jr. was diagnosed with mercury poisoning in the past. How the fuck do you get mercury poisoning in modern times? Did he chow down on some thermometers?
https://arstechnica.com/health/2025/04/rfk-jr-s-anti-vaccine-stance-is-rooted-in-a-disbelief-in-germ-theory/
Third paragraph.
Wanderer
Drove on interstate 495 yesterday (heavily traveled beltway around Boston) and saw only 6 tractor trailer trucks. This was unusual as most truckers will use this route to avoid the city. I traveled it for about 15 miles. Tons of cars, few trucks. I wonder if anyone else is noticing fewer freight trucks on the roads.
p.a.
We’re seeing the “cardboard box-curtain rod-sparrow” meme working out in real time.
Remember the snark from Gingrich’s “Ownership Society” b.s.? “You better get yourself an owner to survive.”
Matt McIrvin
@Librettist: Same thing I was talking about with Hitler in the other thread. A lot of the monster’s supporters will take their support to their graves and continue to see what they want to see.
RevRick
@comrade scotts agenda of rage: Who is trying to replicate North Korea, creating a dictatorial autarky here.
Kayla Rudbek
@Wanderer: I have been seeing fewer and shorter freight trains here in Northern Virginia (freight/Amtrak/VRE rails run next to some of the DC metro lines at some points, I’ve been going to a conference and riding Metro). I’ll have to check the traffic on the DC Beltway this Saturday when I go to the Maryland Sheep and Wool festival (and estimate the parking at the festival too as another gauge of consumer spending)
sab
@eclare: Eating too much fish? He does seem to have quirky dietery habits.
Baud
@Wanderer:
No convoy protests?
Geminid
@New Deal democrat: So far, so good with the Virginia measles case. Virginia’s Department of Health put out an alert that a child with confirmed case of measles spent a couple hours in each of two clinics on Wednesday, April 16. It’s now been 14 days with no new cases. One could still show up in the next week but for now it looks like no one was infected. The child contracted measles on an overseas trip and lives in the Shenandoah Valley.
sab
@Kayla Rudbek: We have been noticing fewer and shorter freight trains in NE Ohio also. Wheeling & Great Lakes line.
ETA They run through OH, PA, WV and MD.
Suzanne
This is one of those times that, I think, we’re failing to fully climb into their imaginations. They literally think we’re making this up, that there will be no shortages. They think we’re doom-mongering.
It’s this distinct mindset that I observe where there is a range of potential consequences ranging from mild to really bad, with the most likely consequence being frustrating but not life-altering, and thus taking no action to avert any of the negative consequences. It’s a weird form of risk assessment that often reads to me as toxic optimism. But it’s a thing I observe and it’s almost pre-politics.
Wanderer
@Baud: Not a flag covered truck in sight.
zhena gogolia
@Matt McIrvin: When I read this comment, I thought, “Someone is using ‘Hitler’ as their nym on BJ?”
jonas
See? Just like Bessent said. Our beautiful retailers are smart and preordering everything, so no worries, right?
Matt McIrvin
@eclare: Some kind of quack medicine? People have turned themselves blue by taking colloidal silver.
But it may have just been seafood. Good thing the EPA is trying to regulate industrial pollution… wait, I’m hearing breaking news…
I had a coworker whose wife was diagnosed with mercury poisoning from eating fish. To hear him explain it, some people have a mutation that makes their bodies much less effective at expelling heavy metals, and she did, meaning she couldn’t safely eat top-of-the-food-chain fish like salmon or tuna even at the levels most people can. (Not that you really should, anyway. It’s a vice for me.)
Baud
@Suzanne:
I half agree with you. They don’t believe us because they’ve taught that libs lie and shouldn’t be trusted.
It’s not toxic optimism IMHO because most of these people freak out when Republicans portray anything as a threat.
jonas
@eclare: Probably eating lots of tuna or swordfish. IIRC, actor Jeremy Piven got really sick a couple of years ago and it turned out to be mercury poisoning from the sashimi he was eating nearly every day for lunch.
RevRick
@Wanderer: I live not far from I-78, which is on the so-called NAFTA highway and I haven’t noticed a big decline in truck traffic…yet. The NYC metro area is such a huge market for goods that tons of stuff moves in and tons of garbage moves out every day, so there’s an imperative. But when it no longer has the supply available, I expect it to become real quiet.
I might add that the Lehigh Valley has tons of warehouses so they’re probably still full, but again, it’s just a matter of time.
Soprano2
@Princess: Yes, it is.
Matt McIrvin
@Suzanne: And that ties into the discussion of criminal justice too–if people were rational expectation-value-of-utility maximizers, making a punishment twice as bad would be just as effective a deterrent as doubling the probability that you’ll get caught, but they’re not and it’s not.
Wanderer
@Kayla Rudbek: Enjoy the festival. It would be interesting to note the general traffic make up. I try to use local routes but that’s not possible with a longer drive. Yesterday was a longer drive and I was surprised by it.
Soprano2
@Baud: I heard that last night, he was saying this is all Biden’s fault “and probably the next quarter too”, so he’s trying to cover his ass for how bad he probably has been told it’s going to get.
O. Felix Culpa
@schrodingers_cat: Well, that was one person, who received considerable pushback. I think there might be one other person who blathers along that line too, but I hold their views on this matter in similar regard. ;)
eclare
@sab:
I thought his diet was mainly roadkill…although he did tie a beheaded whale to the roof of his car. Big sea creatures are high in mercury.
Suzanne
@Baud:
Agree that there is deeply motivated reasoning at work and it is partisan.
But libs are asking people to look inward, into one’s own behavior and that of one’s community. I remember having this same thought when we talked about how young girls being raped would be deeply harmed by abortion bans. So many right-wingers just covered their ears and went LA LA LA LA LA. It’s a painful thing to think about, it implicates people they may know….. and thus it’s easier to just put it out of your head! As the great song goes…. “Turn it off, like a light switch!”.
I don’t know about y’all, but I have never been the type who can just easily “turn it off”. I’m sure that there are many others here of similar mind.
Soprano2
@Soapdish: Yes, especially that last guy. I believe they honestly thought only the “bad people” would be hurt by anything FFOTUS did. Boy are they going to be surprised.
Even though I know there shouldn’t be shortages of tp because we make most of it in the U.S. I should probably buy some this weekend because most people will probably panic buy it when they realize things are going short again.
Baud
@Soprano2:
That’s their culture. It’s always someone else’s fault, regardless of the facts. They are above responsibility, because the only people who can hold them responsible don’t have a right to because they are lower down in the social hierarchy.
Trump supporters have never really had to sacrifice much until now. So this will be a test.
Matt McIrvin
@Baud: Indeed, part of what I’ve heard MAGA folks saying is that if there is an economic crisis, it’s a necessary one because the trade deficit was leading us to doom anyway. They describe foreign economies as something like a drug dealer and the US as having to go cold turkey, with any coming depression as the withdrawal pains we just have to ride out.
Chief Oshkosh
@Jackie: He’s not wrong. He has pretty much accomplished what the white nationalist authoritarian fascists asshole money people…and Putin… wanted him to do. From the perspective of the people who really put him into power, he is a raging success.
Princess
@New Deal democrat: Thanks! My question was genuine, not rhetorical.
eclare
@Matt McIrvin:
Wow, thanks. I eat tuna fish salad three or four times a week, but I pay extra, like $4 a can, because the brand, Wild Planet, says it has less mercury.
I will be cutting back to at most twice a week with the impending tariffs, inflation, recession, etc.
RevRick
@Soprano2: Nobody but those in his cult are buying the “it’s Biden’s fault “ lie.
Baud
@Matt McIrvin:
That’s not unreasonable in the abstract. We would be in such a better place if people had given Bidenomics more time to play out, rather than being turned off by temporary pandemic-related inflation.
However, Trump’s plan is dumb and his execution is even dumber. But that conclusion requires thought about the details.
eclare
@jonas:
Thanks, I didn’t know that about Jeremy Piven.
Of course the fish everyone eats around here (Memphis) is farm raised catfish. Except me, no way.
NotMax
Happy Lei Day!
mappy!
Something to mull over…
Baud
@RevRick:
Agreed. That’s why his poll numbers are down and the worst of it hasn’t even happened yet.
Soprano2
@Baud: I have a friend on FB who posted something from immigration about catching all of these gang members. I replies that if that’s so it’s good, but since this government lies all the time about things I can’t trust that what they say is true. After all, they told us a bunch of people were dangerous gang members when they actually weren’t. She just posted a laughing emoji to my reply. They honestly believe everything FFOTUS and his government says is true. I’m not sure they’ll believe there are no shortages when they experience it first hand.
Princess
@eclare: A lot of fish is infested with mercury. Worse in some kinds than others and I think sport fish can be especially bad.
Baud
@Soprano2:
That’s their choice. I choose the exact opposite.
Geminid
@eclare: You can always switch to ssrdines. They’re lower down the food chain and my guess is they have less mercury than tuna does. There are some good sardines on the shelves these days, at places like Wegmans.
Soprano2
@RevRick: Oh I agree, but I think we’re going to be hearing that a lot from the cult in the next year. The cult members will never admit that FFOTUS singlehandedly caused shortages.
Suzanne
@Soprano2: I often think that if they’re really so concerned about drug trafficking, then they would support a plan to deport anyone who cooks or uses meth.
artem1s
How does President ‘I’m not responsible’ fail to live up to his own standards?
eclare
@Geminid:
Full disclosure: I have not ever had a sardine, but the look is not appetizing to me.
Baud
@Soprano2:
Unfortunately, the “I did that” stickers are all made in China so we’ll have to get our message out some other way.
Betty Cracker
@Aimai: So good to see your nym this morning! I hope you are well. :)
Soprano2
@Baud: People in general are unhappy with the felon because he’s not concentrating on bringing prices down, and his immigration roundups are causing more and more problems. I heard part of an interview of some immigration official this morning. When the interviewer asked her about the American citizens who had been wrongly arrested or rousted by immigration officials, her reply was all about the successes they’ve had. My frustration is that there was no follow up asking something like “Sure, but what about these people I asked about? Are the people who were wrongly raided in Oklahoma going to get their stuff back? They didn’t even know who took it, and no one told them how to get the things back”. They ask the right questions, but then when the first answer is evasive they don’t press the issue.
rikyrah
Good Morning Everyone 😊 😊 😊
Soprano2
@Baud: I sense an opportunity for some Etsy sellers. I’m sure they could find people in the U.S. to make them.
Baud
@Soprano2:
Yeah, one major difference in how the media treats Republicans and Democrats is with the follow up questions.
rikyrah
@Soprano2:
That story from Oklahoma only added to my rage and disgust.
The exiling of American Citizen children, one with CANCER😡😡😡
Baud
@rikyrah:
Good morning.
BellyCat
Perfect. Toxic Denialism also too.
Geminid
@eclare: I’m not a big fan of the taste, but I can still eat sardines on saltine crackers. I’ll sometimes put them in a salad; with some parmesan cheese and dressing I hardly notice the taste. It’s good protein and fish oil.
rikyrah
@Soprano2:
We have jails. We incarcerate more people than anyone else. We have enough jail space for CRIMINALS.
The catch…is that the overwhelming majority of the Undocumented ARE NOT CRIMINALS.
NEVER FORGET..
75%
75%
75%
of those sent to El Salvador
HAD NO CRIMINAL RECORD😡😡
A room of 100 people..
75 HAD NO CRIMINAL RECORD
rikyrah
@Suzanne:
When the shelves are empty…what will they say then?
.they are truly the stupidest muthaphuckas alive 😡
Suzanne
@Soprano2: Your feeling is fair, but there is no way to get those people to confront reality. Asking follow-up questions designed to logical confrontation is not going to have the result we want. The core of the issue is that they are delulu. They are deeply emotionally unhappy — sometimes for good reasons — and FFOTUS/MAGA provides emotional release for that anger/unhappiness without complications.
If y’all have never enjoyed “Turn It Off“, I invite you to do so.
Harrison Wesley
@Suzanne: You’re trying to offshore American industry?
p.a.
@eclare: I’ve found water-packed sardines don’t taste much different than the non-albacore types of tunafish, and as a filter feeder are considered a low-mercury food.
eatwell.com:While canned sardines are a low-mercury fish choice, Manaker notes, “eating them frequently—as in more than four times a week—may be a concern, since you could potentially be exposed to too much [mercury].”
Soprano2
@Baud: It’s crazy, she didn’t get an answer to her question at all, and instead of pressing the issue she just asked the next question! I think they’re so terrified of losing access that they’re willing to do this.
Suzanne
@rikyrah:
That the economy is super-great and everyone’s buying everything, like Taylor Swift tickets.
Yes.
Soprano2
@rikyrah: I know, that is horrifying and gross!
satby
It really is, isn’t it?
Baud
@Suzanne:
That’s where our hack deficit really hurts us. So many opinions about Dem imperfections. Less zeal in tackling Republican atrocities.
Soprano2
@Suzanne: To me it’s more about how it’s the responsibility of the interviewer to get an answer to their question, and if the subject of the interview isn’t answering, that should be made clear with a follow-up question. That they don’t do this in obvious situations makes me crazy, because they aren’t doing their job.
Suzanne
@Harrison Wesley: LMAO.
Imagine if we decided to revitalize the American industrial town with meth production.
p.a.
I’ve noted on their facebook posts, and generally get no response, that they are people who think the gubmint can’t do anything right when it comes to helping people, but makes no mistakes when it comes to kicking their targets du jour in the throat.
Matt McIrvin
@Soprano2: Trump’s great skill (what he calls the Art of the Deal) is in bullying people who are in weaker positions relative to him, and any journalist who he grants an interview is, from his and more often than not their perspective, getting a favor from him. He’s going to lean on that explicitly–look, you have to give me this one, I’m giving you the scoop of your career by even talking to you. He outright says stuff like that to bully them.
Betty Cracker
@mappy!: That’s such an important point — thank you for bringing it up. No one who’s really paying attention is waiting for Repubs in Congress to grow a conscience and rein in their lawless party leader. That’s not gonna happen.
Our task as constituents is to flip the risk calculus Repub reps made. We need to make them more afraid of getting bounced out of office for supporting Trump than they are of drawing a pro-Trump primary opponent.
Harrison Wesley
@Suzanne: Isn’t that part of Project 2025?
Baud
@Matt McIrvin:
It helps him that his supporters are all on board. If a Dem tried anything remotely similar, we’d be deeply divided.
Suzanne
@Soprano2: But the interviewer isn’t going to get an answer, no matter how many times they ask a question. The person being interviewed is literally incapable of answering. It’s like trying to get a reasoned response out of a parrot!
I am of the opinion that we just should stop asking idiots what they think about anything, but I am also fully cognizant that I am an asshole.
BellyCat
Journalism and the judiciary can only be improved from within. Sadly.
Harrison Wesley
This seems like a good place to repost localharvest.org Food sources in your area, and you can support local farmers as well.
prostratedragon
@Jackie: He’d be touched by their delight in his bravado.
p.a.
@Suzanne: Why not just keep asking the question?
“Sir”😉You have not answered my question. Why won’t you answer my question? Are you incapable of answering/understanding my question? Do you want me to restate my question since you don’t seem to remember it?
It would take guts, but the interviewer would instantly achieve notoriety (+ and -) many journalists only dream of. I still remember the Irish journalist that held W’s feet to the fire and his pissy momma’s boy responses.
Matt McIrvin
@eclare: Back when we were subscribing to Walden Local Meats, part of the package was fish that was often species we don’t usually cook at home, like fluke, tilapia and pollock. I think those are all lower in mercury because they’re not apex predators like tuna are–also, can be fished more sustainably with some care.
Sadly, they’re not as tasty either, at least not to me. A lot of them are your basic white fish that get most of their flavor from what you do to them. I always thought of pollock as sort of a garbage fish, fit only for Mrs. Paul’s Fish Sticks, but if you take a cue from that and bread and pan-fry it and season it well, it’s got a subtle flavor of its own that works with all that.
Jackie
@rikyrah:
It’s Biden’s fault. FFOTUS is already saying it, and his cult will believe it and parrot it.
NotMax
Not going to link but if you’ve the stomach for it, look for Dolt 47, pointing out to Terry Moran things on display in the Oval Office, blabbering about what the Declaration of Independence is.
cmorenc
@Baud:
If public awareness of the impact of Trump’s tariffs on the economy wasn’t already so pervasive, he might possibly get away with blaming the oncoming recession as a “Biden hangover”. But the media coverage angle on the economy and what business leaders are saying (at least outside Faux) seems to have turned against Trump, especially in contrast to how the comparison with the Biden “soft landing” that seemed to have tamed inflation and avoided a recession.
Plus, while”Trump” and “tariffs” doesn’t quite alliterate, those words do fall easily off the tongue. He’s stuck with being associated with the negative economic fallout from them like a fly to flypaper.
ArchTeryx
@eclare: You can easily get it by trying to salvage silver and gold from tooth fillings. Silver, especially, also contains mercury, and by melting the silver you evaporate the mercury – right into your lungs. It’s a great way to get instant mercury poisoning.
There’s also organic mercury, which is incredibly easily absorbed by the skin and many times more lethal than metallic mercury. Factories love to dump that shit into the water table when nobody is looking.
NotMax
@cmorenc
Trumpiffs.
MrPug
The crazy thing about this, and I’ve heard from so many people who voted for Trump, but basically they all share this common failing which is that they admit they voted for a guy who they assumed was lying to them. Now, the specifics they thought he was lying about varies, but most admit that they voted for a guy they thought was lying to them. What a great fucking country we have that is just chock a block with fucking morons.
Matt McIrvin
@Jackie: “Illegals took all the stuff off the shelf! We better not let all those Mexicans into the store!!”
Baud
@MrPug:
Owning the libs isn’t cheap.
ETA: Financially or morally.
Harrison Wesley
@ArchTeryx: Have to remember that next time I’m brushing my teeth with a blowtorch.
Baud
Via reddit, we’re saved! The manly man is bending his knee!*
* JK I make no promises of what will happen next.
sab
@Soprano2: And I don’t know anyone in their twenties or thirties who doesn’t have tatoos.
Suzanne
@p.a.: I think badgering people (I’m talking about normies, not people in power) is a no-win situation. It reinforces the idea that we’re elitist and mean and are trying to make fools of people. It makes dumb people look sympathetic, IMO.
Matt McIrvin
@mappy!: Doesn’t that just transfer the mysterious rise in hackery from Republican politicians to Republican people in general? Today, Trump’s approval has stayed in the forties even when he overtly was a party to crimes worse than Watergate. I don’t think it’s possible that it will go as low as 24% even if there’s Great Depression II. Most of his supporters will find some way to explain it all away as somebody else’s fault (“Biden did this!” “If only the czar knew what his deputies are doing!”) or as necessary shock therapy (the “drug addiction withdrawal” analogy that I’m already hearing).
p.a.
@Baud: Can’t wait for the “tRump 3D chess” spin from the usual suspects.🤢
The pig people in power have me rooting against my own nation.😡
jonas
@eclare: Some of the smaller tuna species are probably fine. It’s the fatty bluefin tuna belly so beloved by sushi connosieurs that tends to accumulate the toxins (apex predator + fat = a lot of mercury). I eat it only rarely and not just because it’s bloody expensive.
ArchTeryx
@Harrison Wesley: Don’t joke around too much. People have actually done this. It’s a favored way to get quick cash for the meth crowd, who are already dealing with crazy poisonous stuff. And then they think, “This can’t hurt me, silver and gold are harmless…
Considering Trump’s complete evisceration of the EPA, I think organic mercury is going to become a whole lot bigger a threat than it is now.
Baud
@Matt McIrvin:
We don’t know how solid the cult will be if faced with real deprivation.
They have been able to free ride on Democratic policies for a long time.
Harrison Wesley
@Baud: President Xi has issued the following statement: “I have just received a confidential statement from Donald Trump. Big,strong guy. Beautiful guy. He said ‘Sir’ – he had tears in his eyes
Oh fuck it. I’m losing my shit.
Baud
@Harrison Wesley:
Haha.
Matt McIrvin
@Baud: We kind of do–the worst of the COVID pandemic happened under Trump. They blamed Anthony Fauci, they blamed state and local Democrats, they blamed Chinese conspiracies, and when Joe Biden got in, they blamed Joe Biden and kind of forgot that any of it happened under Trump.
jonas
@Matt McIrvin: I tend to agree. Party tribalism is so baked in now that Trump could reveal himself to be the literal Antichrist, and he wouldn’t lose the MAGA faithful. It’s a cult, not a political movement. His floor is 35-40% — where it’s been for the past 8 years. It’s that 10% in the middle who still aren’t 100% locked in to voting one way or the other that swing elections these days and from the looks of it, they’re getting pissed.
Betty Cracker
@MrPug: I’ve noticed that too, and thanks to their personally curated media bubbles that pump out propaganda to reinforce their priors, they see every election as a choice between two liars. So lying doesn’t even register as a factor.
Sandia Blanca
@NotMax: Mahalo for this! I spent 10 beautiful years on Oahu, and this made me so homesick for those times and places.
Suzanne
@jonas:
I might have minor disagreement about the exact percentages, but all in all, I think you are correct about this. That 10% (or whatever) is reachable. They’re mostly politically incoherent, swayed by vibes, reactionary AF, often tuned out, and deeply, deeply frustrating.
Harrison Wesley
@ArchTeryx: Sorry, no offense intended. Sounds like I actually did something intelligent for a change when I picked up a water filter on sale last week.
jonas
@Matt McIrvin: The kicker is, the impact of the pandemic in many rural areas across the country was way worse than in many coastal cities. Large swathes of South Dakota had higher mortality rates than NYC. People lost family, friends, coworkers, and know many more who are disabled with long Covid and they still pretend like nothing happened, or if it did, it was because of all the BLM protests or something.
Dorothy A. Winsor
@Matt McIrvin: And at election time, they’ll decide the D would be worse. I still recall a neighbor telling me he thought Hillary would be worse than Trump
Omnes Omnibus
@zhena gogolia:
“Hey! Hey! First of May…” Of course it’s 40-something and raining here.
Harrison Wesley
@jonas: I saw a recommendation for skipjack light tuna in a health newsletter a couple of days ago.
jonas
Yup. But you go into an election with the electorate you have, not the electorate you wish you had.
Jackie
@NotMax:
I saw that clip on MJ this morning. Embarrassing isn’t a strong enough word to describe it. Disgusting.
Too bad Moron (deliberate typo) hadn’t the balls to ask him if he’s read The Constitution (he hasn’t) and what phrases resonated the most with him.
FFOTUS couldn’t even vaguely describe what The Constitution was.
comrade scotts agenda of rage
@Matt McIrvin:
Some of the families of SS heads post-war were exactly that way. They hid it as best they could but you read tons of accounts of how they remained true believers until they died.
schrodingers_cat
@Baud: People in the cult of Orange will not blame him even if his decisions cause them personal pain. I have seen this movie before with another despot.
मोदीजीने किया होगा तो सोच समझके ही किया होगा
Harrison Wesley
@Jackie: He probably believes the Declaration reads “You’re not the boss of me.”
Belafon
@Baud:
Xi: I’m gonna need you to sink three of your carriers.
Trump: They’re not mine. I don’t have a problem with it.
schrodingers_cat
@Baud: Our left flank is more eager to attack us than they are to attack Rs. And the media has many such BS bros, including Late Night hosts supposedly on our side.
These mostly white bros had a sneering disregard for Biden that they don’t have for Orangina.
Melancholy Jaques
Haven’t seen anyone mention the HBO documentary The Dark Money Game about the Republican corruption in Ohio. It ought to be a factor in the midterms, but I’m guessing my beloved home state’s white voters don’t mind corruption as long as they get their racism.
comrade scotts agenda of rage
That’s called *policy* and we’re often being told that policy is for nerds, mainly as a cover to squash dissent or discussion over right-sourced policies pushed by self described “progressives”.
schrodingers_cat
@comrade scotts agenda of rage: Who are these self described progressives you refer to?
Are they Ezra Broder Klein and MattY by any chance?
Matt McIrvin
@Baud: I will be curious to see how many of the people who supported Trump over empty shelves and inflation will give him a pass when he makes more empty shelves and inflation. I think the fraction will be far from zero, which raises questions about whether that was really their concern all along.
Jackie
@Baud: From your link:
Xi is having a blast toying with FFOTUS. Of course it’s FAKE NEWS along with profuse denials… But, FFOTUS won’t dare straight out accuse China of lying.
eta the link within the article is really worth reading, too. Quite embarrassing for FFOTUS and his flunkies.
Here’s the good part:
karen gail
@eclare: No clue where he got it from, but last summer got letter that town is replacing water pipes from street to house since it was discovered that those pipes are lead or have lead in them.
Also, with the age of Kennedy he could have been exposed to lead paint; it wasn’t banned until 1978. I do know that at least one of the houses brother remodeled the owner insisted he use paint that was still in basement to match existing rather than repainting with new paint. The old paint contained lead.
The same could be true for mercury; he probably not only ate a lot of sea food growing up along the ocean but the levels in water were high in many areas.
This is why we have EPA.
comrade scotts agenda of rage
@jonas:
This could describe how we see elections play out since 2016. When he’s not on the ticket (2020 and the pandemic being a possible outlier) and turnout is down, we’re doing pretty well.
Him at the head of the ticket? Different story in that it shows the fragility of the Dem coalition and it’s vulnerability to challenge from the populist right.
Take the cult leader off the ticket and it might change the electoral dynamics completely.
Splitting Image
@Matt McIrvin:
I don’t mind Trump’s fans taking their support of him to their graves, provided that I don’t have to wait too long to see it.
cmorenc
@schrodingers_cat:
Consider that the fundamental job of late-night hosts is to entertain their audience. They are going to play to whatever they think the dominant portion of their regular audience is, what their current sensibilities are.
comrade scotts agenda of rage
@schrodingers_cat:
Not in this specific context. I think my views on those hacks are well known and I don’t go into passive-aggressive mode when referring to them.
Oh, and “Ezra Broder Klein” is hysterical.
Matt McIrvin
@comrade scotts agenda of rage: Which is why they’re now all in on Trump 2028, Constitution be damned. Trump always outperforms even the polling adjusted to allow for Trump outperforming polling. But nobody else on their side benefits if Trump isn’t running. They need Trump in there, otherwise they lose. There has to be a way!
Princess
@MrPug: They assumed Trump wouldn’t do the the things they disliked that he promised he’d do and is doing, and they assumed Harris wouldn’t do the things they liked (eg taxing billionaires which everyone except economists who know how hard it would be to do, loves) that she promised to do.
I have no idea how to get beyond that. It requires trust in a trustworthy press and neither exists right now.
zhena gogolia
@Omnes Omnibus: It has been going through my head all morning.
I understand Terry Moran went to a very good school.
Ohio Mom
@Melancholy Jaques: To be fair, I am not sure most Ohioans are aware of the depth corruption in Columbus, or even of its existence.
I’ve hardly seen anything in the news about it — I remember a few really hard to follow articles in the Cincinnati paper. It might be that the reporters could hardly follow the twists and turns of the story.
I’ve said it before, this is not the state I moved to in the very late 1970s. I consider Ohio a foretaste of the United States overall.
Anyway, looking forward to the video, thanks for the link.
Barbara
@comrade scotts agenda of rage: All coalitions are vulnerable to charismatic populist leaders. We have Trump because the Republican party thought it could use him to push their own agenda instead of vice versa. There are some traits that should always be disqualifying, like felony convictions and on and on. People who thought it was okay to enable him deserve their day or their week or month or whatever it turns out to be in hell.
The fact that Republicans know that they most likely lose without him speaks volumes and volumes about the legitimacy and continuing viability of their party and they know it.
...now I try to be amused
@Betty Cracker:
Kinda wild to think that removing Trump via impeachment might actually be more probable than Congress doing the slightest thing to oppose him, like passing a law to take the power to decide tariffs back from the President. You come at the king, you best not miss.
schrodingers_cat
@comrade scotts agenda of rage: I am glad you like it. Besides being an opinion writer and blogger what else has he done in his life? He is not half as smart as he thinks he is.
Geminid
@Betty Cracker: I think that for Republican House members in purple districts, it’s a “pick your poison” situation. Some might be able to weather a primary even if they’ve crossed Trump, but the MAGA creeps can still punish them staying home in November and they will.
And Democratic candidates aren’t going to cut their opponents any slack over a “good” vote, not when there are so many bad votes to hammer them over. A few Independent voters might, but not very many.
I think some voters won’t even notice a Republican incumbent standing up to Trump. They’ll look at the ballot, see “Republican” after the candidate’s name and say, “Fuck him and the elephant he rode in on!”
However, there are a handful of Republican Reps who intend to retire, and a few of them might defect on a critical vote. It wouldn’t take many so long as Jeffries, Clark and Sguilar hold their caucus together, and I think they will.
Matt McIrvin
@jonas: That old Hack Gap hurt us too– the pandemic was a complicated global phenomenon, even countries that managed it well took tragic losses, public-health best practices were still not perfect, and you can’t honestly blame *every* COVID death on Trump, so we don’t.
But the other side doesn’t have these inhibitions. They think in terms of black and white, all or nothing, heroes and villains. Something that isn’t perfect must be useless, except the hero is always perfect.
jonas
An intentionally engineered economic crisis that jacks up consumer prices and spikes unemployment ain’t gonna help, either. The danger here, of course, is that if the electoral landscape starts looking too perilous for Republicans, they are going to start fucking with the midterms — if they haven’t already.
H.E.Wolf
The folks who guessed “fish” are undoubtedly right… but I prefer to imagine he used to make hats.
I mean, I felt it in my soul. [a pun for NotMax]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mad_Hatter#/media/File:MadlHatterByTenniel.svg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mad_Hatter
Matt McIrvin
@jonas: We were part of that– rushed to buy the (Korean) car we were planning on buying to get in under the wire.
schrodingers_cat
@O. Felix Culpa: You and me both Its hard to take them seriously when they have more smoke for Biden than they do for the Rs.
Eolirin
@Suzanne: I suspect that’s why we keep losing electorally.
Melancholy Jaques
@Ohio Mom:
It’s not the state where I spent the first 43 years of my life.
Though the documentary focuses on Ohio, it is really about Citizens United & dark money & all the other stuff that voters do not seem to give a rat’s ass about.
Omnes Omnibus
@Geminid: I remember when some Dems in marginal districts voted for the ACA even though it meant the end of their careers.*
*Of course there’s no real difference between the parties. Ha!
Suzanne
@jonas:
Agree. But knowing that this is the swayable group should change our strategies for outreach and persuasion.
This is where I get frustrated, because they aren’t reachable via what we think are the normal means. And I think it shows bad theory of mind on our part.
Baud
@Matt McIrvin:
I don’t think that’s true. The pandemic hit the cities first. And there would have been pain even under a competent government because of the nature of the pandemic. So that was a matter of degree.
This is a completely different situation.
EmbraceYourInnerCrone
@New Deal democrat: apparently humans are capable of at understanding relative risk and too many over the past twenty years have not been getting their kids immunized. Add in the growing number of states allowing religious and non-medical exemptions to vaccinations in order to attend pubic school, and the pockets of religious groups that are vaccine skeptical (Amish, Mennonites, Haredi) and we have the perfect awful storm. Outbreaks of measles, whooping cough(Louisiana), polio(Rockland County NY a few years ago), TB is on the rise as well. Vaccines were one of the miracles of medicine and humans are apparently stupid enough to throw that out the window. It doesn’t help that for years celebrities and influencers wrote books and released videos about their anti vax views.
Baud
@Suzanne:
We don’t like meeting people where they are. We want to evangelize people into converting into us. But we’re not that good at it, and we’re divided over who we should be anyway.
Belafon
@Baud:
They have counted on Democrats to save them from themselves, and they’re not going to get that for a while.
Old Man Shadow
Canada and Mexico get nice times, we get this because a bunch of neo-Confederate shitty men would rather burn it all down than share the country with Black people, Latinos, women, and LGBTQ folks.
AM in NC
@eclare: I LOVE sardines. I get them packed in oil and eat them on crackers for lunch sometimes. Good protein and good calcium because you eat the bones too.
of course, growing up in NOLA I ate all kinds of sea creatures that might look a little intimidating.
Professor Bigfoot
@Suzanne: Years ago I read “Dark Rivers of the Heart” by Dean Koontz; and (in addition to scaring the bejezus out of me) it left me with one concept: “Never lie to the dog.”
That is, “never lie to yourself if you can help it. See what’s happening with both eyes; that’s the only way to deal with it and survive.”
Belafon
@Baud: No, and there’s not much we can and should be willing to give up to meet them, though you can see some Democrats trying. “If we only stop talking about trans people, then we can bring others on board.”
Old Man Shadow
@rikyrah:When the shelves are empty…what will they say then?
This is all
Obama’sJoe Biden’s fault.Josie
@Suzanne:
Not an asshole, merely a realist. I agree that we should not be giving these parrots air time. There are too many of them spouting nonsense and too few people being interviewed who are telling the unpleasant truth.
eclare
@Matt McIrvin:
I am not a fan of any of the fish you mentioned, I like a firm but flaky whitefish, like cod or grouper.
Baud
@Belafon:
It’s impossible not to give on anything if we hope to have majority. The debate is over what we can live with.
Miss Bianca
@Jackie: God, if I were Xi, I’d be so tempted to tell Trump administration flunkies that there would be no deal until Trump is gone. China can afford to wait a hell of a lot longer than America can.
Professor Bigfoot
@Suzanne: “Okay, thank you Mr. President, I think we’re done here. You are a congenital liar, you spout untruths like a while in the sea, and I see no reason to continue this interview. Good day, sir.” <unclips mic, stands up, walks away>
eclare
@sab:
Oh yeah, everyone that age has ink.
Bupalos
@Melancholy Jaques: Nowhere is the same place it was and no place ever is the place it was. Things change. And change doesn’t just keep going in the same direction.
The rust belt was primed for political decline by the way its economy was positioned going into globalization. That has largely been digested at this point, and I think over the next couple decades much of it is well positioned for relative improvement vis-a-vis the rest of the U.S.
Omnes Omnibus
@sab:
Neither my nephew or niece do.
Citizen Alan
@eclare: I’ve never had a sardine either, simply because i’ve never seen one outside of a can, and in my mind’s eye, i envision all sardines as flooding in a pool of gross oil and tasting vaguely of metal.
Geminid
@Omnes Omnibus: In this case, I guess the critical votes will be over the budget package. That might be in June. My understanding is that if it weren’t for the Debt Ceiling, Johnson and Thune could screw around all summer but Instead, they have to get something done by July. This resembles the situation two years ago, but with higher stakes and a chaos agent in the White House.
gvg
@RevRick: I am not sure even his cult would buy that lie. It is just too unreal. And too many people including Fox and others who are conservative and republican know better and are saying so. Trumps opinions on Tarriffs were not something accepted for years by all the rest of them either. It was more his own concoction that he became too powerful for them to shout down, but reality gets the last say.
p.a.
The magic conservative time machine: bad stuff under R admins the result of previous D policies, good stuff immediately the tesult of R policies.
Bad stuff under D: immediacy. Good stuff: previous R actions.
It’s magic!
Professor Bigfoot
@Suzanne: Badger them?
Hell, I’ll cross the street to avoid them. I want nothing to do with them.
Eolirin
@Baud: The only thing we can give up that will have a chance of letting us win whites is civil rights.
If we do that there’s no point in bothering. It’ll be the same as losing.
Otherwise, we wait for them to fuck up bad enough that we have an Obama like “we’re voting for the n*clang*” moment and then we aggressively shut down their donor network and criminalize most of the social media practices that allow disinformation to run rampant.
Citizen Alan
@p.a.: this is why I permanently deleted my facebook account. I felt that it was intentionally trying to force me to interact with people i considered to be evil and stupid to the point of inhumanity.
eclare
@karen gail:
Good points. I have an older house, 1924, with asbestos wrapped pipes in the basement. I’ve been told as long as I leave the asbestos alone, no biggie.
I don’t let the pets go down there.
Old Man Shadow
@Citizen Alan: To me, they taste a lot like canned tuna. So I usually drain the can, pop them out into a bowl, and mix in some sliced celery, dijon mustard, mayo, and pepper and treat them like tuna. Spread on some sourdough with Swiss and toast that sandwich.
jonas
This is unfortunately true — Dem party leaders, fundraisers, media and campaign consultants have simply fallen way behind the curve in reading the new media landscape of the streaming/TikTok/podcast era.
eclare
@cmorenc:
I watch Colbert and Kimmel, they have been en fuego going after FFOTUS. And anyone who doubts Jimmy’s sincerity should Google the videos he made when Congress was trying to repeal the ACA, which he saw through the lens of his son who has heart defects.
mappy!
May Day! May Day!
It’s Trump’s Economy Now
Don’t let him shift the blame
Paul Krugman
WTFGhost
@Aimai: Hee. Yeah, I used to imagine carrying Plan B and Narcan around, but my life is so effing dull (I rarely leave the house, and can’t socialize – no energy), they’d be a waste of money.
It was always a stupid idea, but the idea that people would refuse to provide these products, for free, at need, made me want to have them to provide, even though the odds I’d run across someone who needed either were very small.
You know, the lack of universal health care makes it a lot easier for polluters, OSHA violators, and other horribly, irresponsibly, evil people to flourish. When someone – backed by the government, most likely! – is going to pay the medical bills, no matter what, stuff like Plan B is always free, and Narcan is cheap, and, toxic waste gets cleaned up (or not produced) more quickly – because there’s an actual dollar cost in curing cancer cases, and similar horrors, someone will want to cut those costs.
Professor Bigfoot
@schrodingers_cat: Funny how it’s always white dudes, innit?
Baud
@Eolirin:
That’s the fear. We might end up having to wait it out until we have a more morally sound electorate.
Bupalos
@Belafon: We need the language to talk about trans rights as a subset and example of common freedom. “In America, we support the right of people to be who they want to be, it’s how we create a government that lets us all be who we want to be.” That kind of thing. Otherwise it is indeed counterproductive to talk about trans issues. The way we talk about it now, as a clash of competing rights, is politically and practically disastrous. And we’d actually do better to just stay quiet than treat it as an identity issue the way we often do.
RaflW
@Jackie: Said Trump: “I’ll tell you that’s the toughest question I can have because I don’t really believe I’ve made any mistakes.”
He has never, ever believed he has made a mistake. His megalomania will not allow it. Other people fail him, but he, sun king that he is, has infallible instincts, perfect thoughts and if anything goes wrong the observers are lying, or possibly they’ve noticed something that will lead to an underling being underbussed.
He’s serious when he says the phone call that led to his impeachment was perfect. Seriously deluded, obvs. But he believes himself to be utterly beyond reproach.
All of which is to say I’d love to see his face when the audience laughed!
WTFGhost
@Baud: He does, though – he wants to pretend he is loved, and lauded. (I mistyped that as “louded,” initially. Celestial slip?)
If you wanted to think of something “good” about his second term, it’s that he’s going to be hated by the time he leaves.
@Princess: No, but it is the time when the feds declare one. The literal textbook definition of a recession is, “when businesses cut back spending, because of perceived lack of demand,” or something close, but, two quarters is the benchmark for “it’s now obvious that something like this happened.”
Here, it’s complicated, because there were a lot of pre-tariff orders, so that wasn’t cutting back spending, but, economists would try to say “let’s ignore the parts that look like pre-tariff buying” and see if they can tease out that, e.g., McDonald’s was shy about new franchisees, banks weren’t lending to new businesses (remember, that’s “new spending” for banks), local businesses were starting small numbers of “last hired” layoffs, etc., they might declare the recession started earlier, eventually.
@SFAW: Not even Trump is saying that – he’s saying that there’s pain due to the “Biden overhang”. I often wonder if he knows he’s making excuses, or if he really believes this crap.
Professor Bigfoot
@Melancholy Jaques: I’m only just coming to understand the depth of corruption in the Ohio statehouse; thanks for that link.
The shapes of our state legislative districts should be the first clue to the level of corruption of the Ohio GOP.
WTFGhost
@Baud: “This movie is a farce, a horror, and a disgrace. It takes one from the merely maudlin to the greatly fantastic, with hardly a segue, leaving one motion sick and confused. I dream of funding this movie, and it is the greatest, most incredible fantasy ever!”
“This movie is… greatly fantastic… and it is the greatest, most incredible fantasy ever!”
Eolirin
@Baud: We’ll be waiting a long time.
Omnes Omnibus
@Bupalos:
We already fucking do that. When bigots decide to persecute a specific group, are we supposed to defend them with generalities and vague platitudes or do we actually defend them?
Suzanne
@Baud:
Yes agree. We are, as a cohort, bad at persuasion. To be fair, it is a difficult thing. Not least because we find it somewhat distasteful.
Professor Bigfoot
MAN, that is one of my pet peeves.
My usual reply is that if you cannot see the difference between the neo-Confederate Republicans and the Black and Jewish and female led Democrats, you must be a fucking white man.
WTFGhost
@Matt McIrvin: Thanks! That was informative!
@Ohio Mom: It is possible to pass messages between different states of consciousness, including dreams. If you remind yourself “hard enough,” when you’re falling in your dreams, you can remember you can fly, or hover, or materialize the earth beneath you, only with a big trampoline on it.
This isn’t full-on lucid dreaming – this is something that you’ll eventually remember/realize, and then, in that moment, you might be lucid (aware enough that you’re dreaming) that you can stop any panic reaction.
Also: sometimes a panic reaction in a dream is something in your body. You can sometimes learn, in your dream, what’s going on in your body, that’s making you feel like you’re falling, and “pass that message” to your consciousness, because you realize it’s important enough, that you remind yourself hard enough, that you remember.
Professor Bigfoot
@EmbraceYourInnerCrone: Did you hear that our current Health and Human Services Secretary doesn’t believe in the germ theory of disease?
STG, THAT one just flat blows my mind. Nigh on 300 years of scientific knowledge just…
I’m wondering just how much of human history has been shaped by stupid people doing stupid things in positions of great power?
Belafon
@Suzanne: Because the easiest way to do it is to lie to them.
Omnes Omnibus
Much of it.
frosty
@New Deal democrat: A question for you: what’s the source of your wastewater reports? What about COVID deaths? A friend of mine was skeptical because he doesn’t trust T***p stastics.
Professor Bigfoot
@eclare: I was born and raised in the South.
Bread it and deep fry it and it’s all good. ;D
Belafon
@WTFGhost: If you want that in song form, listen to “Silent Lucidity” by Queensryche.
Steve LaBonne
@Professor Bigfoot: He is trying to destroy vaccine production, which is a fragile low-margin enterprise, and I have little doubt that he will succeed. I need to get MMR and DTP boosters while I can. Flu and COVID in the fall? Guess I better start masking in public. This fucking moron is going to kill a hell of a lot of people.
Bupalos
@Omnes Omnibus:
This is the language problem that allows “She’s for they/them, Trump is for us” to work. The attacks are not on them, they are attacks on us, because they are us. Freedom is unitary.
My point is to very overtly refuse the framing of division they are presenting. If we aren’t intentional with that, we end up in a losing battle.
In American politics we should be grounding everything in terms of self-interest. It’s not a system designed for absolute moral claims, and I think something has gotten in the water (it’s the internet) that makes us forget that.
Eolirin
@Omnes Omnibus: Replace trans for gay, or worse Jewish or Muslim, in the comment you’re responding to and tell me how fast that would result in a warning or ban.
Even the framing of that is absurd. There’s no choosing going on here, except in whether we stay closeted or not.
But given that some people still lauded here have said incredibly bigoted things that would have resulted in a ban if directed at any other minority group with zero consequences, I’m not expecting much.
And I certainly have no faith in any other part of the country rising up to defend us.
Professor Bigfoot
@Baud: Unfortunately, I think @Eolorin outlines our best case scenario.
My fear is that political violence (“Proud boys, stand back and stand by!”) breaks out, and once that genie is out of the bottle…
New Deal democrat
@frosty: My primary source is the CDC, and I understand your concern.
But wastewater is also privately tracked by Biobot. Here’s the link:
https://biobot.io/risk-reports/covid-19-influenza-and-rsv-wastewater-monitoring-in-the-u-s-week-of-april-19-2025/
So long as the CDC numbers correspond to Biobot’s analyses, the CDC numbers are probably good.
Hope that is helpful.
Miss Bianca
@Bupalos: what do you mean, “a clash of competing rights”? Who the fuck is framing it that way? Because there is no “clash” except in the minds of the right-wing.
Suzanne
@Belafon:
Well, yes.
But also, I think, it’s because we want the people we’re talking to to be motivated by the same things we are, and they aren’t, and that’s frustrating. But, like, it would be a good thought exercise for us to try to make the immediate, transparently self-interested, more-money-in-the-bank-account case for voting for Democrats.
Professor Bigfoot
EGGS-MF-ZACTLY.
“In America, we believe that no one is free unless everyone is free.”
Unfortunately, there’s a significant fraction of the electorate for whom the mere EXISTENCE of trans folk, gay folk, really anyone who is not straight, white and Christian is an offense.
Their need for a hierarchy (and of course to be at the top of that hierarchy) is strong.
eclare
@Professor Bigfoot:
Preach.
Eolirin
@Professor Bigfoot: It is very much the best case. It assumes we still get to have elections, which is far from certain, and that failing that that a sufficiently robust resistance movement coalescences and that it isn’t put down by the security services.
Omnes Omnibus
@Bupalos: Bored now…
Geminid
@Geminid: To correct a typo, that would be “…Jeffries, Clark and Aguilar…”
That’s California Congressman Pete Aguilar, the Democratic Caucus Chair. I call him the Other Mayor Pete. Before Rep. Aguilar won his seat in Congress Congress in 2014, he was mayor of Redlands. That’s about 60 miles east of Los Angeles, between San Bernardino and Riverside. I think Aguilar and Pete Buttigieg are fairly close in age.
Shakti
@Baud: Not true.
His standards are “Am I still in power?” and “Am I out of jail?” also “Am I still rich?” and “Are the people I hate crying?”
And there are so many Crystal Mintons who only seem to care about that last one.
eclare
@Professor Bigfoot:
Same. But I still have issues with bottom feeders.
dnfree
@Ohio Mom: We have a relative who committed suicide in the springtime. As we drove to his funeral, everything was lush and blooming, and I wondered how he could have done this when the world around him was so beautiful. Then I realized that the contrast between the beauty and his inability to be cheered by it might have made him feel worse. There is something unsettling about such a contrast between nature and our reality.
Eolirin
@Professor Bigfoot: I’m sorry, it’s bullshit. Trans people don’t want to be trans, they are trans.
I take extreme exception with presenting trans rights as being a part of an argument for freedom of choice being a value worth fighting for.
It’s playing into the LGBTQ as lifestyle choice bullshit that’s used to attack us.
eclare
@Steve LaBonne:
I just scheduled my pneumonia vaccine, after that I’ll sign up for the TDAP, because I might step on the proverbial rusty nail.
Omnes Omnibus
@Eolirin:
I honestly do not know who you are talking about. Anti-trans talk gets a shitload of pushback here.
New Deal democrat
@Professor Bigfoot:
If you are ever in need of a mood lift, watching British or Irish people try American foods is always good for a hoot.
Your comment brings that to mind because one of the best is British high schoolers trying biscuits and gravy:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzdbFnv4yWQ
For a completely contrary take, here are Irish trying BBQ:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BFotaytFmk
For some reason I am thinking whoever prepared the sausage gravy in the Irish video screwed it up.
Matt McIrvin
@eclare: Cod or haddock (whatever a New Englander might call “scrod”) definitely has a better texture, though flavor-wise it’s similar.
Eolirin
@Suzanne: Honestly, the reason why we don’t do that is because it also doesn’t work. The way we put more money in the bank benefits black people, and a lot of white people are not okay with that, to the point where they’d rather have less money in the bank.
Support for covid mitigation fell when it became associated with saving minority lives. It never recovered even when the pattern shifted and started affecting more white people and rural communities.
That’s what the place where we have to go to meet people where they’re at. It’s why we’re going to be awful at this.
eclare
Oh wow! I love today’s photo, WaterGirl!
Matt McIrvin
@Omnes Omnibus: Kay said some stuff on trans rights I thought was pretty objectionable back in the day, she was going after me on trans athletes in school competitions. There was pushback but not to the banning/exile level–she eventually left but it *wasn’t* over that.
Professor Bigfoot
@Eolirin: Not a freedom of choice.
A freedom of existence.
The freedom to EXIST as ones own true self without fear of negative consequences for it.
Sorry if that didn’t come through clearly— in no way am I implying that it’s a “choice” any more than my Blackness is a “choice.”
But I believe one should be free to live in peace with your neighbors regardless of any other aspect of one’s personhood.
eclare
@dnfree:
Oh I’m sorry. I see your point, which you eloquently stated.
WTFGhost
@eclare: I believe it’s carnivores that have high mercury – they eat the smaller fish, that have small bits of mercury, and there’s no mechanism to get rid of it, so it builds up over time. That said: whales might change the rules, because they’re big enough to change the rules. And there are few enough people with whale in their diet, that no dietary guidelines have been issued.
@eclare: Skinned, boned, sardines are much better than the unskinned-unboned. However, the unskinned aren’t bad – they’re fishy flavored, which can be off-putting, and not what most folks want to eat on a tender stomach, but, they’re not *bad*. You need a strong flavor to complement them, if you don’t like fishy flavors and smells.
The skinned, boned, sardines are milder in flavor, but, they probably don’t have all the beneficial oils. I find they go fine on, e.g., a saltine cracker, like kippers, but I prefer kippers to sardines.
@rikyrah: YEAH? What’s it TO YOU? HUH? What if I’m having a BAD morning? HUH? I… oh… wait.
Uh, good morning.
@rikyrah: They aren’t empty, yet. Hence, this is just fearmongering.
@Suzanne: That was how journalists used to claim they’d treat a newsmaker who lied in bad faith, they’d stop carrying what should be paid advertising, and shouldn’t get a byline.
It was assumed that a “Fox News” would fail, because responsible journalists would destroy them. Alas, Fox News learned to do at least a few good news stories here and there, so they get taken seriously as journalists, which doesn’t make sense to me. If you don’t know their reporting is good every time, how do you trust them any time?
Eolirin
@Omnes Omnibus: I don’t really want to reopen it, and I’m pretty sure you know who I’m talking about if you think about it a little.
But, anti-trans stuff gets pushback, sure. There’s nonetheless far more benefit of the doubt given to it when it comes to enforcement of our community rules. Trans issues are not as well understood and bigotry is allowed to exist in a grey area where maybe people are well meaning but ignorant, or where the bigotry is less visible to the non-trans members of the community.
I’m not blaming you all for that. It just sucks.
dnfree
@eclare: I can’t speak for how RFK Jr could have gotten mercury poisoning, but I remember in grade school a group of us pushing a little blob of mercury around on a desk, poking it to watch it spatter into lots of smaller blobs, and then pushing them back together into a big blob. It was fascinating! And I don’t recall even being told to wash our hands afterwards.
I’d guess this was the mid-50s, the same era when we used to stop in the shoe store we passed on our way home to look at our foot bones in the X-ray machine that was supposed to tell whether our shoes fit properly.
Omnes Omnibus
@Matt McIrvin: The whole Planet Eddie situation involved a lot of people here showing their asses.
Eolirin
@Professor Bigfoot: Oh, I know what you meant, but what you were replying to did not say that.
eclare
@New Deal democrat:
You should see the video of the Brits trying Memphis pulled barbecue. They had no idea that you could eat meat without a knife!
Professor Bigfoot
@Eolirin: That’s why we cis-folk have to STFU and listen to what trans folk have to say about their lives and their existence; and if we’re decent humans we incorporate that into our own thoughts, beliefs, and attitudes.
So for my part, I hear you.
Professor Bigfoot
@eclare: There should oughta be a postscript to all those videos: “See, you skinny ass Europeans, THIS is why we’re fat— WE HAVE THE GOOD EATS!”
XD
Eolirin
@Professor Bigfoot: I think this only works for the UK :p
Continental Europeans have pretty fantasic food.
eclare
@dnfree:
We did that in chemistry class in the 80’s! The teacher had no idea, and yeah, it was fun to play with.
The teacher had no control of that class, and she was an odd bird. I swear on a Bible, we found a brown grocery sack of hair in her classroom. The rumor had existed for years, we found it.
She was a former employee of ORNL, maybe that got to her.
eclare
@Professor Bigfoot:
Two words: banana pudding.
Gin & Tonic
@Professor Bigfoot: You’ve been to Europe, so you know they’ve got good eats too. They’re skinnier because they’re aware you can use your feet and legs to get from place to place.
Eolirin
@Gin & Tonic: Honestly, US car culture isn’t really a choice people are making so much a structural problem created by over half a century ago political decisions.
Many of which were, again, and as always, racially motivated.
Europeans also just have healthier food cultures and better environmental regulations than we do and that plays a role as well.
dnfree
@Soprano2: That “laughing emoji” from right-wingers on Facebook in response to facts with serious consequences just drives me nuts. It’s as if I told them I had cancer or something like that and they laughed.
Eolirin
@dnfree: Do you think they wouldn’t?
Gin & Tonic
@Eolirin: Well, sure, but facts kind of ruin the cleverness of my comment.
Matt McIrvin
@Omnes Omnibus: Yeah, just read the Planet Eddie threads, you’ll see it.
WTFGhost
@karen gail: It’s also why lead abatement has economic payoffs of around 14-to-1, each dollar spent yields $14 in benefits.
(John Oliver explained this, with Oscar the Grouch, trash expert, pointing out the high economic value of lead abatement programs.)
It means lots of local spending, just like federally subsidized childcare would, which would revitalize a lot of rural areas, but, something something,
wives should stay home with the kids, as Jesus intended, we can’t possibly do that.@dnfree: In my experience, it’s that you don’t really see the beauty, or, if you do, it doesn’t mean anything. Sometimes, if I’m feeling sorry for myself, I do get crushed by how, what I really want isn’t such much, but most of the time, I’ve learned to skate over that feeling until it goes away. That said: I’ve survived major depression for over 30 years, now, so, other people would experience it differently. I think the first time a person is hit with depression is probably the most dangerous – there’s a real sense you can’t live with it being this bad, forever, but, eventually, if you’re treatment-resistant, you realize you have survived, for ten years or more, and you can live with it, though you’d prefer not to.
Suicide sucks – I hope you and the rest of those affected are healing well, and that your relative found peace.
Eolirin
@Gin & Tonic: I’m a helper!
Matt McIrvin
@Gin & Tonic: Restaurants there don’t give you double size servings with the understanding that you’ll take home leftovers. That also means you’re less likely to eat more than any human being should at one sitting.
dnfree
@NotMax: The Declaration of Independence, surrounded by so…much…gold.
Steve LaBonne
@dnfree: They really would do that.
Geminid
@Matt McIrvin: Last I checked Planet Eddie had removed his posts and the comments on them, so now you can’t read them anymore.
Matt McIrvin
@dnfree: Many people who commit suicide won’t tell you they want to die– they’ve become convinced that it’s morally obligatory for them to die.
It’s connected to depression but isn’t necessarily exactly the same thing. I think it’s part of the reason some antidepressants can trigger people to kill themselves. They become capable of action, but that’s the action they take, believing they should.
dnfree
@Jackie: The Constitution is a Sacred Document, just like the Bible. You don’t have to read it.
Eolirin
@dnfree: This is a small thing, and I don’t mean to intrude on the memory by bringing it up, but there’s an effort by the mental health community, especially focused on the provider end, to shift the language to “completed suicide” instead of “committed suicide.”
The feeling being that getting to that point of despair shouldn’t be equated with doing something criminal.
I’m certainly not going to take offense at the old usage, but I think it’s a useful change in that it, I think, gets people thinking about it with a little more openness and hopefully compassion.
Eolirin
@Geminid: Their
Professor Bigfoot
@Gin & Tonic: To be fair, their cities are set up so that you do a lot more walking and public transit; whereas in ours you almost cannot get by without having a car.
BUT YEAH, y’all are all correct about excellent European food… and even in the UK, there’s so much Indian cuisine (one of the things I actually miss about my working days— I LOVED India, the sights, the smells, the music, the FOOD, the really wonderful people I met there) but there still ain’t nothin’ like low’n’slow hickory smoked baby back ribs! 😁
Professor Bigfoot
@Eolirin: SO much faster than I am! lol
Yes, exactly these. I really loved walking in European cities and the transit systems— I spent a weekend in Amsterdam once and I would just literally choose a random tram, then a random stop, and just walk. It was marvelous.
Matt McIrvin
@eclare: Jimmy Kimmel becoming an outspoken progressive was not on my bingo card for the whole century. (He and Adam Carolla are like a case study in good and evil timeline evolutions of the same guy.)
WTFGhost
@Matt McIrvin: Another hypothesis is, antidepressants make you feel somewhat better – well enough to act – but not well enough to shake off the thoughts of suicide. So, you can go from “too damned depressed to go buy a shotgun” to “undepressed enough to buy, and use, a shotgun,” before hitting “undepressed enough to fight off the suicide-urge.”
Suicide is usually a short term danger – a person might make a plan that takes a few days, and might carry it out, but, it tends to be an impulse you can quash, once reality sets back in.
Suicidal ideation isn’t a severe danger, and, if a depressed person is thinking about suicide, in kind of an offhanded way, “maybe I should kill myself, nah, that’s stupid,” it’s a danger. It should be mentioned to a doctor, carefully, and to support folks, as well. People should know you have flashes of thinking about death, so if you have more than just a “flash,” your support-folks will be more ready to help you make it through a dark, lonely night.
Because once you’re thinking offhandedly about suicide, it can turn into an urge, and, if you’re having a downturn, you might be actively suicidal, and might not want to tell a doctor that, unless you can swear you’ll still be alive to make the next appointment, and are believed. So it’s best to mention it during the ideation phase.
Also, once you talk it out, it becomes more normal to talk about it, so long as your doc and support folks don’t freak out. Once you mention you have ideas, you’re left open to talk more freely about how you feel, if you really need to.
Professor Bigfoot
@Matt McIrvin: Sometimes people grow up.
Sometimes life kicks them in the face sufficiently that they rethink things.
I’m sure his kid’s illness— even though obviously he’s rich enough to be able to take care of it— served as a wakeup call.
cain
@Soprano2:
They are going to lose access. To maga influencers. Who won’t even ask that initial question much less the follow up.
Instead, they’ll be stuck asking Dems hard questions and with countless follower up questions. We’ll likely see nothing but why Dems suck for not fighting fascism.
cain
@Suzanne: I wonder if you instead change the questioning to something more provocative like: “We believe that you’re carrying out atrocities. That’s what we are going to print tomorrow. We have the evidence. What’s your reaction to that?”
Watch the fascist reply. Then they’ll focus on you and then it’s a different conversation.
cain
@jonas:
They’ll just make a new religion and basically reject Christianity and embrace the devil to own the libs cuz Christ was too woke.
The Audacity of Krope
If you’re more willing to believe that trans lesbian immigrants are coming to take your job and eat your babies than that Republican elected officials use tax and regulation policy to advantage their wealthy backers and generally consolidate power, there’s no helping you.
WTFGhost
@dnfree: Oh, it’s not gold – it’s gold paint over cheap decor.
So it looks just as trashy as any Trump property, but it’s like Trump’s face, ugly where it isn’t fake.
@Eolirin: My experience is, people should think of suicide as being like a heart attack, a medical condition caused a temporary crisis. I don’t think “committed” versus “completed” is a big deal, but, obviously, if I stepped into that community, I’d try to be polite and use their term. I think the big thing is, people view it as selfish and hurtful, rather than as the result of pain, and a loss of ability to see a way to live.
When I want to die, I don’t see any escape from intolerable pain. If I did die, it would be because of that very reason, and I’d feel horrible for the pain I’d leave behind, but, I would be in so much pain, and feel I had so little choice, that I’d end things.
But people get angry, as if the choice to die was a choice to hurt others, rather than a sense of being eternally trapped in unbearable agony. People don’t kill themselves to hurt others.
cain
@schrodingers_cat:
Which is interesting since a lot of those are the pro-palestinian people and the people who have green cards or student visas are getting arrested and deported.
cain
@Jackie:
I think they are going to wait until the U.S. is mired in financial chaos and then come in like a savior but on the condition that Trump publicly humiliates himself. That’s is what I would do. Meanwhile, reach out to the other countries and start spinning new deals.
Eolirin
@WTFGhost: Yeah, all of that.
But there’s also some evidence that the antidepressants are also capable of triggering suicidal ideation for at least some people who otherwise wouldn’t have it, and especially younger, teen and early 20s aged, people. Teens are also more impulsive though, so it’s hard to differentiate as much as would be ideal.
Not all major depression has a suicidality component to it, so that impulse coming out of nowhere when meds are started has been documented to happen.
Psych meds in general are a very blunt and poorly understood tool. They can range from life changingly helpful to dangerously counterproductive. All of this stuff requires careful monitoring.
There’s a lot we still just don’t know about how all of this works.
frosty
@NotMax:
No, sorry, I don’t have the stomach to listen to The Dolt blabber about anything.
Eolirin
@cain: What do you mean they will?
:p
Eolirin
@WTFGhost: Sometimes they do. But that’s a different thing entirely.
And I’m in the same place, to be clear. 30 years of treatment resistant depression with chronic suicidal ideation, though TMS helped some.
So I get it.
I like completed because it helps to shift away from that sort of mentality. I don’t think it’s necessarily a big deal either, but I think even little things, in the aggregate, can help make the world just a little less awful.
Geminid
@Eolirin: Thank you for the correction.
catclub
@Baud: yeah, those goalposts have moved.
another use for imported rollerskates
Eolirin
@The Audacity of Krope: You know, I don’t think the issue is one of belief. I think they’re very aware that Republicans will do that. I think they’re okay with it. As long as the Republicans hold up their end of the bargain and hurt the people they want hurt, they don’t care.
And again, this is why we can’t possibly do a good job persuading them. The core sticking point is that they want to hurt people and we can’t get on board with that.
frosty
@sab: In their 30s: Elder son has a whole bunch. Younger son hates needles, so no tattoos for him.
The Audacity of Krope
Though they will deny this to their dying breath; it’s only the lawbreaking trans lesbian immigrants they have a problem with…they swear…
Eolirin
@Geminid: Thanks for being understanding.
WTFGhost
Ooh, hey, good reporting by CBS:
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-mike-waltz-alex-wong/
I’ve seen plenty of other news orgs just transcribe the official account, without reporting the obvious questions any normal person would have, like, “was this because the President is a whiny ass titty baby?” and CBS said “Yes.”
Eolirin
@The Audacity of Krope: Yeah, the cognitive dissonance they live in makes my head spin. I’ve made attempts to try to really get what it’s like to operate like that and it physically causes me pain.
It’s hard to wrap your head around what its like to not be able to see things that you see instinctively and automatically. Like how people don’t notice how awful the incoherent design of their McMansions look.
catclub
@Betty Cracker: I agree, great to see.
Soprano2
@Suzanne: The problem is that this was a government official, so they feel they have to talk to them. What I expect is at least one followup question trying to get an answer. If after that they don’t get an answer then sure, go on, but make it clear to the listener that the question was not answered! That’s part of the job IMHO.
Soprano2
@Jackie: I agree the cult will believe it, but I don’t think anyone else will.
Melancholy Jaques
@Professor Bigfoot:
The Republican Ohio Supreme Court ruled that the congressional districts were unconstitutional, but the Republicans said, fuck you, we’re going to use them anyway.
Eolirin
@Soprano2: The job is to make the network money, which means preserving access and not pissing off too many viewers.
Whether or not this should be the job, it sadly is the job.
Suzanne
@Eolirin:
I think this mindset dooms us to failure. The people you are talking about are the unpersuadables, and they absolutely exist. But there are persuadables out there.
Also, this attitude lets us off the hook in ways that I don’t think are great. It is entirely reasonable for people to expect that good governance will benefit them directly and materially. I mean, I personally expect good governance to benefit me directly. If we decide that we won’t engage in that argument because voters are racist (sexist, homophobic, ableist, etc.), we are, IMO, not even attempting to do the basic work of politics.
Eolirin
@Melancholy Jaques: If I’m not mistaken, the Ohio voters, in their wisdom, then voted in a Republican majority to the court, which backed down.
The Audacity of Krope
But it’s big and comparatively cheap. The American dream right there.
Omnes Omnibus
@Suzanne: We absolutely need to know the difference between persuadables (however shitty) and diehards. Any effort expended on diehard MAGAs is wasted. Also, the persuadables have to be talked into coming over without us yeeting anyone into the sun. Tough row to hoe, that’s the task at hand.
Miss Bianca
@WTFGhost: You know, what I can’t understand is how Trump has *any* people willing to torch their entire careers, reputations, cushy Congressional jobs, etc for him – over and over again – when over and over again it becomes apparent that there’s only one way it ends: with a knife in your back and a boot out the door.
Maybe that’s how we know that the GOP really *is* a cult, at this point.
Eolirin
@Suzanne: See, I think we have been engaging in that in the way that is honest to what we are trying to do. That was both Biden’s and Harris’s pitch.
It doesn’t seem to be working. I don’t think we stop making that pitch, but I also don’t think that not making that pitch is why we’re losing when we lose.
Democrats focus a lot on economic issues and Republicans are usually still viewed as being better on it, despite causing a crisis literally every time they’re in power. Some of it’s not controlling the platforms, some of it’s the racism, some of it’s pure cynicism. I’m not convinced that enough reachable people are persuadeable for any line of messaging to have a durable effect, rather than that they’ll respond to circumstances. And we can only partially affect those.
I’m not arguing we should stop trying to make that argument to people, mind. I’m just very skeptical it’s going to get us anywhere in the short term and I thoroughly disagree with anyone saying we’re not already doing it, because it’s a core part of the Democratic message
But again it’s nearly impossible to make the pitch that this is in your personal best interest in a way that resonates, because the pitch is that a lot of people, including yourself will do better.
And a lot of people, even some of the reachables, view society as zero sum, even though it’s not. They want to hear we’re going to make things better only for you. We can’t make that pitch.
We constantly make the good government benefits you pitch.
catclub
@New Deal democrat:
I was under the impression that Trump has shut off a LOT of CDC public communications — all as a reaction to the CDC in 2020 reporting news that was bad for Trump. All he has are grudges.
Kayla Rudbek
@WTFGhost: false in one thing, false in all things (and my ancient Roman ancestors wrote that saying down in Latin) Once you know someone is a liar, how can you trust anything they say?
Suzanne
@Eolirin: Yeah, see, I don’t think we engage in it. Not well, not often, not authentically. I think we talk a lot about abstract ideas and values and aspirations, and when we do talk about those things…. we’re really reflecting our own values and aspirations. This is where we fail, IMO.
We often wonder why voters think that Republicans are better on the economy when it isn’t true. Part of it is because they beat that drum allllllll the time. They talk about giving you a tax cut! FFOTUS signs his name on checks! I recently made a READ MY LIPS, NO NEW TAXES joke, and then I remembered that I am old and no one under the age of 40 had any idea what I was talking about.
frosty
Most of the 20th Century? WWI: Stupid kings and emperors, WWII: Stupid fascist dictators. Great Depression? Smoot and Hawley made it worse.
And now the 21st Century is picking up the challenge.
frosty
@New Deal democrat:
Yes, thanks. I’ll pass the Biobot link to my friend.
Eolirin
@Suzanne: And I think we talk about it really constantly, and with relatively clear language, but don’t have access to a media machine to turn it into a perpetual drum beat, and instead have a media that demands we get pulled into specifics that can both be disputed and are too complicated for people to understand.
We want cheaper housing costs and to reign in corporate profit gouging was a pretty clear message and in almost all of Kamala’s speeches. Even in terms of policy the Dems have been good on this when we’re allowed to pass bills. Child tax credit and snap expansions were huge.
If Manchin hadn’t blown up that stuff maybe things would have been different. And I think it’d break the law if we did something where the president got to sign checks that went out for non emergency cash payments to people in the run to an election. Though it feels like the Hatch Act is dead already so maybe we just shouldn’t care. But that kind of tangible outcome can only help if we’re already in power.
We could maybe stand to be bolder in our policy proposals, but we still need to be able to get things passed and a lot of the country is skeptical about things going too far too fast, and the media will certainly go after us on it.
Being out of power we can only try to focus attention on how people are getting hurt by Republicans because those are things things that’ll be tangible.
dnfree
@Matt McIrvin:
This relative had been hospitalized before and did not want to ever be hospitalized in a psych unit again. His first attempt, years earlier, was a slower method and he issued a kind of online warning to people, so he was saved. His second attempt was by the usual definitive method.
O. Felix Culpa
@Omnes Omnibus: Kay, for starters. She said appalling TERF-y things in the notoriously horrible planet eddie thread (last year? seems like a lifetime ago). But she’s not around any more.
ETA: Or what Matt McIrvin said at #238. Agree that too many asses were revealed in that thread. Not pretty. Deeply disturbing, actually.
WTFGhost
@Eolirin: There’s a rollback of a sewage fix grant, because the DOJ decided generations of bad sewage control was enough for this community.
That’s the kind of thing that you can touch on. Trump didn’t just refuse to sign a bill that allowed this; he reversed a grant that had already been made, for people desperate for relief.
“You see, they say they want cost savings so stuff goes to people who need it, but then, they cancel this!”
Fixing old housing issues, like bad water, also reduces the cost of housing, and might allow for housing growth in areas that now are buildable, but weren’t due to infrastructure issues (like, bad water/sewage).
satby
@sab: Late back, but my son has spent (and will ultimately spend) more than $3k getting a dark hand tattoo removed because no visible tattoos (hand, face) is a rule in the police department he’s joining. It’s not a gang tattoo at all, he goes in for Celtic symbols and Gaelic language quotes. I try not to point out too often how many times I told them all to restrict tattoos to places on their bodies that can be covered.
satby
@karen gail: doesn’t explain why all the rest of his siblings and cousins are normal.
O. Felix Culpa
@satby: LOL. #1 son has tats that I counselled were ill-advised. Oddly, he did not listen to me. #2 son has no tattoos.
schrodingers_cat
@cain: I am not speaking of the people on visas and greencards.
Eolirin
@WTFGhost: And this is what I think won’t work, because that’s the kind of argument you make to a college educated liberal.
I think most people, and especially the majority of the people who don’t vote for Democrats, are only persuadeable through two things; cultural affinity and emotion.
The left populist equivalent of what Trump and MAGA appeal to is like Leninist communism; rich people are evil and they’re making your lives awful and businesses are evil and making your lives awful and we’re going to hype up your rage and promise to destroy them.
That’ll get a lot of other people to flip out, but it might appeal to some of the people we lose. And the media, being the mouthpiece of money, will go all in on beating that back.
It’s all too clear that people struggle to grasp stuff unless it’s very concrete but more importantly also happening to them. And no one believes politicians are really going to do anything, and that asymmetrically hurts us too. They won’t believe the Democrats when they say they’ll make their lives better, and they won’t believe the Republicans when they say they’re going to make their lives worse.
Until they do. And then, historically we vote in Democrats to clean up the mess, and they stabilize things but can’t properly fix them because of Republican obstruction or margins that require dealing with people like Manchin, and then we vote Republicans back into power because vibes and cultural affinity.
We’re not good at making emotional appeals because they feel disengenuous to us. They’re not something most of our politicians can do authentically (Tim Walz is actually pretty good at this though, I think).
But if we have messaging issues it’s there. I’m not sure how we can realistically fix that, especially given the undercurrent of the need to have someone to beat up on or punish that underlies much of our politics. There’s not a lot of fertile ground for making appeals to compassion and empathy. And I’m not sure making everything about eating the rich is a winning play.
...now I try to be amused
@WTFGhost: Allie Brosh (Hyperbole and a Half) wrote about her depression (part 1), (part 2). It was chilling and eye-opening for me. If I read it right, she was ready to kill herself but she couldn’t be arsed to do it.
satby
@Eolirin: this. Most of those donor networks play fast and loose with the laws as they are now, and May be liable for prosecution under them. But changing the laws is paramount. Impeaching some corrupt judges is too.
satby
@Omnes Omnibus: deleted. Asked and answered.
satby
@Suzanne: yeah, there are politicians doing the communication you would like to see, and bringing it outside the Dem tent, but then most of you aren’t looking that way and miss it. TBF, Buttigieg excels at it.
satby
@O. Felix Culpa: The original tattoo probably cost him a couple hundred $. He’s already $3300.00 in with two more treatments to go and it’s nowhere near faded away enough. 6 weeks between sessions, and he’s now having an allergic reaction to the dye breaking down. Just frustrating that they don’t listen
sab
@Omnes Omnibus: I knew one of those Dem reps. His father died when he was a kid and he and his mom survived on Social Security survivors benefits. Amazing guy. And he voted for ACA knowing it was the end of his Congressional career.
He is also a good lawyer, so he landed a lucrative DC job, but it was not his preferred choice for his career.
sab
@Professor Bigfoot: Fauci said years ago that there is something wrong with RFK Jr’s brain, but I am inclined to believe his cousin Caroline that he is just a lying predator.
sab
@satby: We said pierce anything you like, cut, grow or dye your hair anyway you want, just don’t get tattoos.
Of course only the youngest listened.
ironcity
@Professor Bigfoot: History is made by stupid people. Smarter people wouldn’t even try. It’s a catchy tune, isn’t it?
...now I try to be amused
@Eolirin:
It doesn’t help that the people we want to punish are able to defend themselves, whereas in true bully fashion Republicans seek out victims who can’t defend themselves.
DanB
@H.E.Wolf: RFK Jr ate a lot of fish from the Hudson River. That may be the source of his mercury poisoning.
Chris T.
@Suzanne:
“I’ll just put down that you don’t know.”