I suspect we’re all on board for what Pete is recommending in the 2nd section below, but sections one and three are more of a challenge.
Pretty sure that 33% isn’t going to get us where we want to be.
Time to get out of our comfort zone?
If you want to read Pete’s substack about this, just click on any of the 3 images above.
Here’s the 3-Hour Tour!
Has anyone watched the whole thing yet? The clips I’ve seen have been outstanding. But of course I read a bit about some really lame questions that were asked; it will be interesting to see how Pete Buttigieg handled those.
Open thread.
Baud
Hey, he’s pretty articulate!
Nukular Biskits
No disagreement with Mayor Pete, but the folks in my life pretty much already know how I feel.
And the problem with letting my congressional representation know is they fucking do not care; i.e., you’re persona non grata if you aren’t on the Trump train, but I’m assured every single time I call their offices that Senator X and Rep Y truly are interested in hearing my views.
Bullshit.
Another thing to add to what Pete is advocating here: Hammer local and state officials as well, particularly those who are MAGA. Ask tough, but relevant, questions at city council meetings, boards of supervisor meetings, etc. Put them on the fucking spot.
Nukular Biskits
@Baud:
Damn you, Baud! The one work day I have an opportunity to be first and you still beat me to it!🤣
the pollyanna from hell
Sore-winners, I thought. The list of forbidden subjects grew massively with my Maga friends. Before was the omerta of insurrection. Now is the omerta of the break-out, the looting operation.
Suzanne
I think Pete is great and I appreciate what he is doing.
I was listening to Sarah Longwell’s most recent episode of the Focus Group podcast, which focused on voters who identify as progressive. She made a point that, of the range of Democratic voters she has spoken to since the election, it’s not that they want the Dems to be more progressive, but they want them to be more aggressive. This is my sense, too….. frustration is not primarily around policy goals, it’s about how to represent those values/goals in the public square.
Raoul Paste
I think the “better off than you were 100 days ago?“ is a good approach, and will be even more effective in another month
lowtechcyclist
Just in terms of phraseology, I’d go with “are you better off now than you were four months ago?”
First of all, it can be used a little longer. Second, it echoes more closely “are you better off now than you were four years ago?” which has been frequently used by Presidential campaigns.
lowtechcyclist
Three hours? No way I’d even start watching. I have trouble sitting through five minutes of talk.
Belafon
@Suzanne: And, as others will point out, they can easily decide that they want to be regressive, as long as it’s the Democrats that are doing it.
Omnes Omnibus
@lowtechcyclist: I thought we more or less all agreed that picking at the specific language used by people involved in fighting back was a mug’s game. We can workshop and wordsmith things to death.
Nukular Biskits
@Omnes Omnibus:
I don’t disagree – piefighting over the best way to craft a sound bite is probably self-defeating.
Having said that, I also agree with @lowtechcyclist in that clever (but not too clever) sound-bite-crafting would be very useful into getting ideas/facts into the adamantium craniums of Trump supporters.
Think of it as the stupid little commercial jingle that stays in your head all day long.
Jeffg166
I watched some of it. The three guys he is talking to keep interrupting him and changing topics. Pete being Pete shifts with every interruption and topic change effortlessly.
New Deal democrat
Per Constitutional history scholar Jack Rakove:
“we do have a mad king problem, and notwithstanding the 25th Amendment and the Impeachment Clause, have abandoned any mechanism for dealing with it. The situation is so bizarrely anomalous for constitutional and republican government that the whole system is failing.”
https://bsky.app/profile/jrakove.bsky.social/post/3logf3isgzs2h
I agree 100%. Any Republic which wanted to function would be considering a slew of Constitutional Amendments to prevent such an out of control Executive.
Suzanne
@Omnes Omnibus: Agree.
Also…. it might be better if Dems are less coordinated on some of this. Some Dems are Pete Dems, some are AOC Dems, some are Cory Booker Dems. Rather than alienate anyone….. maybe we just all be different.
Geminid
@the pollyanna from hell: Hey pollyannaFH, glad you made through the winter! I’m wondering if you’ve heard much or anything at all about Georgia State Senator Colton Moore. His district is based in Dalton.
Moore is 30 years old and very ambitious. I figure he’s gonna run against Marjorie Taylor Greene one of these days. She may be looking over her right shoulder at him.
Butch
@Nukular Biskits: I contacted my Democratic senator; it took a little over 2 months to get a response, and what I finally received was boilerplate about all the “letters” she had sent. She seemed to think that sending a letter constitutes bold action. Didn’t respond to my question about why she was voting to approve Trump’s unqualified nominees at all.
They Call Me Noni
@New Deal democrat: Amen.
Belafon
@New Deal democrat: No amount of Constitutional amendments can overcome the party in charge of Congress not following the Constitution as well.
Omnes Omnibus
@Butch: Contact her again. Tell her that you appreciate what she is doing but that you believe the times call for more. Tell her how much you admire the Petes and AOCs who are speaking up publicly. Tell her that you support people like that with effort and/or dollars.
Nukular Biskits
@Butch: I’m disappointed you got that kind of “un-response” from a Democratic senator.
It’s SOP for my one of my Republican senators to issue boilerplate, or in the case of Hyde-Smith and Ezell, nothing at all.
My issue is the outright refusal to even acknowledge my question/concern. Hell, I would like an answer, even if it’s something along the lines of “Here’s my position and I disagree with yours”. But the absolute radio silence is maddening and indicative of arrogance on their part.
Baud
According to Reddit, 60 Minutes committed an act of journalism yesterday. I didn’t see it for myself.
New Deal democrat
@Belafon: As I said, “Any Republic which wanted to function …”
The GOPers in Congress are not interested in a functioning Rule of Law.
Marcopolo
@Suzanne: This. Keep trying/doing as many different things as possible (this includes our messaging & actions). If we learn something works particularly well, then double down on it.
Two things:
1) we are having a Mother’s Day rally here in StL on Saturday, May 10. It’s called A Mother Lovin’ Rally (love your Mother; protect her rights) & I do hope it brings out a lot of folks (and families). And I really hope it isn’t raining, lol—last three protests I’ve done here have been in the rain.
2) I’m seeing a few folks w/ social media accounts taking a photo of something at the store (for example a coffee mug branded w/ your local sportsball team) that shows it’s price today & then they will take another pic in a couple three weeks (we will assume prices will be higher) so they can do an “effect of Trump’s tariffs post. Just a thought for folks on fb, insta, shitter, etc…
Have a lovely Cinco everyone!
lowtechcyclist
@Omnes Omnibus:
Then any suggestions for improvements are out?
I mean, I can understand why to avoid protracted back-and-forths over such things, but making freakin’ obvious suggestions is a bad thing? Seriously, WTF?
Nukular Biskits
@Baud:
I saw the teaser on Bluesky. I was waiting for the full segment to come out on either the CBS site or Yourube.
ETA: Was going to correct “Yourube” but thought it was probably more accurate.
Librettist
Infotainment: American’s are tired of…
Reality: American’s can no longer afford…
Low cost airlines, traditional breakfast, etc.
ExPatExDem
@New Deal democrat: When the legislature abdicates their role as a check on the Executive, we’re basically cooked. The judiciary can issue their decisions and orders, but have no real means to enforce them.
Congress holds the national purse strings and as you said, has the power of oversight, impeachment, and removal of members of the other two branches. Basically all of the brakes to stop a runaway POTUS or Judiciary. But when they are prepared to excuse brazen lawlessness either due to agreement or cowardice, we’ve moved into failed Republic territory. :-(
tam1MI
Some good news from (of all places) Texas:
Conservative Texas School Board Voted Out Amid Book Bans
This part made me snicker…
p.a.
Mmm hmmm mmmm hmmmm talk to those family close to you who may disagree with you…
You know Heinrich, your… uh… social policies might, in the end, have a negative effect on war efforts… just a thought. Please pass the potatoes.
Melancholy Jaques
@Omnes Omnibus:
I think the thing is – if there is a thing – is to have everyone on our team use the same words & repeat them many more times than we usually do.
lowtechcyclist
@tam1MI: Let’s hear it for the “radical DEI Left”!
Melancholy Jaques
@Suzanne:
I guess you & I will have to disagree. The variety of messages means no one really knows: Who are the Democrats? What do they stand for?
I’d also respectfully suggest that this has been The Democratic Way since Clinton & while a supremely talented, charismatic male presidential candidate can win that way, it just does not work for the broader party.
ExPatExDem
@lowtechcyclist: They forgot to add “woke”.
AM in NC
Today I wore my new T-shirt to Costco, so “regular Americans” could see that other “regular Americans” see WTF is going on.
T-shirt text:
1776-2025
No Kings
No Tyrants
Sure Lurkalot
Satby linked to this article by Brian Klaas in the thread below and I want to both thank her for and repost the link to a very astute read:
https://open.substack.com/pub/brianklaas/p/the-age-of-the-surefire-mediocre-078?
Here we are now, entertain us, indeed.
Baud
@AM in NC:
Good for you.
Omnes Omnibus
@lowtechcyclist: It came off as nitpicking. The first 100 days has been a yardstick for Presidential accomplishments Sind FDR’s first term.
TheOtherHank
I want to like Pete, but having been laid off at least once by McKinsey consultants coming in and saying the solution is to shit-can a bunch of people, I just don’t.
schrodingers_cat
I don’t think I could listen to the grinning dude with the mustache for 10 min.
rikyrah
Acyn (@Acyn) posted at 7:24 PM on Fri, May 02, 2025:
AOC: Trump said they were only going to go after the “criminals” however their position is that everyone undocumented is a criminal.…
On top of that, they’re not even just going after undocumented people, they are making people undocumented by revoking legal status. https://t.co/66KlW65Cyp
(https://x.com/Acyn/status/1918461702376702108?t=7qQ4m5oXcNgt8yb4MaZElQ&s=03)
Omnes Omnibus
@TheOtherHank: So, anyone who has ever worked for McKinsey is forever tainted and can’t overcome it? That seems a bit harsh.
comrade scotts agenda of rage
We shouldn’t be listening to Republicans who don’t like the way the Party’s gone and now trying to influence Dems. They always say crap like “ignore policy” when it’s essentially elements of right wing policy they’re trying to further bake into the Dem party…and have plenty of willing listeners. And the implicit message to the rest of us is the usual one-big-happy-family-you-don’t-understand-coalition condescension so stfu.
Screw that. Many of us have been quiet for too long only to see a massive chunk of Dem voters coalesce around abortion rights (good) but push the same kind of Reagan-era policy crap at all levels and gee, are now discovering that alienates not only typically core Dem voters (black) but the working poor, labor and public education. For them and their advocates, it’s all about glorious extreme centrism that’s still based around helping mostly whites so let’s double down on that after losing twice to a clearly unqualified candidate who nevertheless taps into a level of populism that reveals the problems with our approach to date.
ExPatExDem
@AM in NC: The No Kings part I’d agree with. Woodrow Wilson could fairly be considered a tyrant IMO.
rikyrah
Jason Leopold (@JasonLeopold) posted at 7:28 AM on Mon, May 05, 2025:
SCOOP: The Trump administration is “decommissioning” a Department of Justice office that been at the center of dismantling transnational organized crime networks, drug cartels and human trafficking rings
https://t.co/r1a6j99ndn
(https://x.com/JasonLeopold/status/1919368712005767204?s=03)
schrodingers_cat
@rikyrah: Did you AOC being attacked by Gaza protestors in her Jackson Heights townhall.
rikyrah
Danny (@danzu72) posted at 0:46 PM on Sun, May 04, 2025:
Don’t take your eye off of the Russians accessing our National Labor Relations Board (NLRB) database. The whistleblower in this case found a threatening note on his home door with a drone picture of him walking around. Was it DOGE or the Russians?
“Furthermore, on Monday, April 7, 2025, while my client and my team were preparing this disclosure, someone physically taped a threatening note to Mr. Berulis’ home door with photographs – taken via a drone – of him walking in his neighborhood.”
npr.org/2025/04/24/nx-…
(https://x.com/danzu72/status/1919086359488209191?t=mNcb2AcB-Agyzj2Zzxm4Lw&s=03)
schrodingers_cat
@rikyrah: Republican vision for the US is the British Empire in its mercantalist heyday. A criminal cartel with a navy.
It did make the British 1percenters wealthy and it impoverished the world. So win-win in their book.
rikyrah
ProPublica (@propublica) posted at 6:00 PM on Sun, May 04, 2025:
The director of Arizona’s embattled Medicaid agency resigned this week, just as she was expected to face questions from lawmakers about her handling of a massive fraud scheme that largely targeted Native Americans.
https://t.co/4PWOlmkJcm
(https://x.com/propublica/status/1919165161933267313?t=hqjEoTDJH8WTget8saiIDQ&s=03)
Eolirin
@Melancholy Jaques: The Democrats stand for Civil Rights, and everyone knows it, and that’s why we can’t win white people.
I’m not sure anything else matters here.
StringOnAStick
@Sure Lurkalot: excellent article, thanks for posting the link.
TheOtherHank
@Omnes Omnibus:
I mean, if he runs and wins the nomination, I’ll vote for him without hesitation. But, yeah, McKinsey is who you call when you want to cut payroll and need someone to justify it for you.
I felt the same way about Biden due to the his active part in passing the bankruptcy bill back in the day. He won the nomination and I voted him. He surprised me with how well he did as President and I don’t have any regrets about voting for him.
rikyrah
Suzie rizzio (@Suzierizzo1) posted at 11:07 AM on Sun, May 04, 2025:![]()
https://t.co/oJ3k3FLQtx
European airlines are saying that they’re going to start buying Chinese Comac planes instead of American Boeings in response to Trump’s Tariffs! This was announced by the Irish airline Ryanair so U.S lawmakers decided to immediately start to threaten the Company per Reuters!
(https://x.com/Suzierizzo1/status/1919061394680390029?t=BdwdCCamWiGiMr-NyCK8IQ&s=03)
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@rikyrah: let me guess, Dumbass thinks he solved these problems by deporting the illegals?
Eolirin
@rikyrah: As if they needed any further reason to avoid buying Boeing.
rikyrah
MAGA Cult Slayer![]()
![]()
(@MAGACult2) posted at 8:07 PM on Sun, May 04, 2025:
BREAKING: House Republicans just voted to let January 6th insurrectionists work at the Department of Homeland Security.
You heard that right—people who attacked the Capitol can now enforce federal law at ICE and DHS.
The call is coming from inside the fascist house.
#MCSN https://t.co/fBvZ8fTsAo
(https://x.com/MAGACult2/status/1919197251882074600?t=X4x9_jW_6X7Qy2r6n1AZ6g&s=03)
Suzanne
@Eolirin:
I guarantee you, if you polled Americans under the age of 50….. probably 50% of people would say that Republicans are more responsible for civil rights, or at least supported it.
These things that we think are self-evident are not. These things that we think of as differentiators are not.
rikyrah
Greg Sargent (@GregTSargent) posted at 6:01 AM on Mon, May 05, 2025:
Now that Trump has openly admitted he could bring back Abrego Garcia whenever he wants, his lawyer tells me he will use discovery to determine which officials are advising Trump to defy the Supreme Court.
New piece from me:
https://t.co/CLk3I5LNqH
(https://x.com/GregTSargent/status/1919346616441446545?t=VsQc_RbzaqtuedrdWF41Jg&s=03)
rikyrah
SIGH
Candidly Tiff (@tify330) posted at 5:49 AM on Mon, May 05, 2025:
Israel plans to capture all of Gaza under new plan, officials say
“At a Knesset committee meeting Monday, Einav Zangauker, whose son Matan is being held hostage, called on soldiers “not to report for reserve duty for moral and ethical reasons” https://t.co/kBZdN288rb https://t.co/BibpHd1MEC
(https://x.com/tify330/status/1919343758291665325?t=tbivM0xycUN-OQx_I4VAbQ&s=03)
Baud
@Suzanne:
They know it. They just don’t like it, any more than their daddies did. The only difference is that they say the Dems aren’t good enough to be for civil rights or, in the alternative, the Dems focus too much on “identity politics.”
MagdaInBlack
@rikyrah: “New plan’ my ass.
ExPatExDem
@Suzanne: The half-century long war on education has borne its fruit.
It’s shocking to me how many U.S. adults lack a grasp of even basic civics.
In any large comment section on ICE’s Gestapo activities, I see many people stating with certainty that “Due process is only for U.S. citizens”.
To dig ourselves out of this era of authoritarian ignorance will be a decade’s long project.
Eolirin
@schrodingers_cat: We do need to factor in the incompetence; they’re not doing a very good job of getting there since they seem hell bent on shutting down all global trade to the US. Even if they think they can coerce favorable deals in exchange for access to our markets, it’s not going to work out that way given that our market is rather quickly going to be pretty worthless at this rate, and many of our biggest trading partners seem happy to deal with the short term pain of reworking their own patterns of trade rather than debase themselves.
We’re headed towards becoming Russia, but with even less influence.
Betty Cracker
@Nukular Biskits: Same here on the topic of Repub family members and elected reps.
Was helping a Repub auntie deal with a Social Security issue the other day, and good gravy, what a nightmare. I think I did manage to flip her into the “I hate Elon Musk” camp, which isn’t that hard since he’s so weird and repellent.
I don’t think she’ll ever vote for a Democrat. Probably the best we can hope for is she won’t vote at all.
Suzanne
@Baud: I honestly don’t think that’s true. The overwhelming message I have heard, whenever I have been idiotic enough to engage Republicans and Libertarians, is that the Civil Rights Act was passed with bipartisan support and “that fixed all that”. It’s done, it’s over, and any lingering racial disparities are the fault of those minorities and making bad choices.
Remember, Lee Atwater noted racism is now ever-so-slightly less directly expressed, and that fooled generations of people.
catclub
@lowtechcyclist: Check out the Fall of Civilizations youtube channel.
Suzanne
@ExPatExDem: “You can’t fix stupid” is painfully accurate.
Baud
@Suzanne:
Trump ran a heavily anti-trans campaign because he knows voters know that Dems stand for civil rights and that enough voters don’t like that.
ExPatExDem
@Suzanne: Even more disturbing.
54% of US adults read at a 6th grade level or below.
trollhattan
Some Kennedys who aren’t on heroin or hosting brain worms have deftly knifed Trump via Mike Fucking Pence. Well played, not-murderous Kennedys.
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c62xp3nq5p9o
Eolirin
@Suzanne: Republicans campaign constantly on how Dems are evil in their support of “woke” policies of racial diversity, inclusion, disability accommodation, and gay rights.
Younger people may have bought into the idea that Dems are too weak to defend their causes, but you can’t smear your opposition with language like that if people don’t believe it’s true.
If 50% of people under 50 think Republicans support Civil Rights and Dems don’t it’s because they don’t pay any attention to politics at all. And so they’re also not reachable by any kind of conventional or party lead messaging strategy anyway.
The language gets shifted away from clear *isms, but the core emotional reaction does not shift, and stays rooted in the same rejection of equality. Lee Atwater laid out the process very explicitly.
I really don’t see a way to fix that that doesn’t require significant structural reforms. And we’d need to be in power, real power, no filibuster blocking and Manchin/Sinemas in the way, to even remotely consider enacting them and the kinds of reforms we need would be unpopular and probably require constitutional amendments. The heaviest of heavy lifts.
Absent that we need to take more responsibility to engage in relational organizing and grow grassroots networks and get more unengaged people engaged one at a time, and that’s going to be an incredible slog, one that we’ll only have a good chance of succeeding at if Republicans make life substantially worse for people so that they’re willing to see that no actually this politics thing matters and has real consequences.
Trump is likely to break the cycle of Republicans trash the place, Dems get sent in to fix it and are sabotaged at every step by Republican intransigence and then Republicans get back into power and trash the place. But it’ll depend on no one being able to reign him in enough to prevent another Great Depression and in order for there to be a good outcome, we need them not being competent enough to shutdown politicial opposition, leaving us like Russia.
We’ll see on both fronts.
schrodingers_cat
@Baud: Yeah T voters know that voting for him gives them Bigotry++ that’s why Rs get more votes when he is on the ballot. His voters know that he is worse than your garden variety R on civil rights.
Immigrants are eating your pets was a large part of his campaign last fall. Yeah but let’s pretend that it is all about egg prices.
Betty Cracker
@Baud: There’s a reason Repubs frame their anti-trans campaign as “protecting women.”
Baud
According to the article, MO Dems uniformly oppose this.
Suzanne
@Baud: But you are assuming that people are making the intellectual connection between overturning Jim Crow and the theme of freedom with that of trans people and their rights. That’s not the case. There are loads of people who, if you asked, would absolutely say that they support Black people’s civil rights, but also think that trans people are gross and they don’t want them on their daughter’s sports team. They would see no conflict there.
You are overestimating people.
Baud
@Betty Cracker:
They frame everything in positive terms. DOGE is all about efficiency. Who’s opposed to efficiency?
Baud
@Suzanne:
Perhaps people don’t know what civil rights is. But if so, telling people that Dems stand for civil rights isn’t going to do anything.
Suzanne
Exactly, they don’t pay attention to politics at all.
They pay attention to lifestyle content, though.
Baud
@schrodingers_cat:
It’s ironic that Republicans have a better understanding of what Dems stand for than Dems do.
ETA: Republicans also know that Dems stand for environmental protection. It’s not all about bigotry.
Eolirin
@Suzanne: It didn’t fool generations of people, it gave them a way to continue to be racist without feeling bad about it now being socially unacceptable to be racist.
That was the whole point. It’s still racism that motivates that. It’s still racism that motivates support for Republicans with those groups. The idea that the civil rights act fixed all of that is a way to avoid having to feel bad about knowing that it didn’t and still supporting policies that actively harm minorities.
The hostility to Democrats is very much because they support policies that benefit minorities. This is recontextualized as reverse racism or unnecessary handouts, or fostering dependency or identity politics, but it’s just a way to process the cognitive dissonance of there being clear racial or gender or orientation disparity and actively making it worse with the idea that you’re a good person who isn’t a racist because being a racist is bad.
You can’t easily persuade people off that position because they’re lying to themselves and that lie will be defended to death.
Part of why Trump was so seismic to Republican politics is that he made it okay to stop lying about it and made being a stone cold racist more culturally acceptable.
And then there are the people who just don’t pay any attention.
schrodingers_cat
@Baud: Our voters know. They just wanted to give their bigoted R voting friends and relatives a pass.
Eolirin
@Suzanne: Lifestyle influencing requires profit to sustain and is algorithmically driven. We’re at significant structural disadvantage with both.
The Audacity of Krope
Trouble is that we have several live, prominent examples that clearly demonstrate that is not the case.
We need a way to catch the attention of the inattentive, because the “civil rights don’t apply to non-citizens” crowd will never be won over.
rikyrah
@tam1MI:
BWA HA HA HA HA HA AH A
Suzanne
@Baud:
That’s my point….. it isn’t effective as a persuasion tactic, because a fair number of people don’t see it as a differentiator between the parties. They think they can vote for Republicans and that it isn’t racist to do so.
I want to make sure I convey that I personally think this is delusional. But it doesn’t matter what I think; I already vote for Dems.
Baud
@Suzanne:
That could be true of every issue though. By that logic, no message will work if people don’t accept it and tell themselves that Dems are just like Republicans.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@tam1MI:
I think realtors were a noted presence on the MAGA PublicSquare site here a few days ago, so this tracks
Betty Cracker
@Baud: Repubs moved public opinion against trans rights by framing trans rights as a threat to women. I think it’s an important distinction. I mean, anti-trans bigotry has always been a thing, but a plurality of the public wasn’t clamoring for discriminatory laws until Repubs manufactured a phony threat.
Omnes Omnibus
@ExPatExDem: To be fair, thirty years ago, there were people in law schools who were arguing that that the Bill of Rights covered only citizens and only in a limited way. Were many of them in the Federalist Society? Why yes! Yes, they were.
rikyrah
@schrodingers_cat:
They stay losing like a muthaphucka.
The patent absurdity of it all.
Once again..needs to be pointed out…
THEY DO NOT GET THIS FROGGY WITH ANY MEMBER OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY.
They are like church mice pissing on cotton when it comes to the GOP.
They are nothing but cos-play revolutionaries.
Nukular Biskits
@Betty Cracker:
I have neither the patience nor the tolerance to deal with the rabid pro-Trumpers.
Yeah, as the old saying goes, you can catch more flies with honey than vinegar, and I really need to work on being less dismissive of their stupid bullshit.
At work, I generally let things pass as they’re quote often an oblique mention and, as a manager, I do have to strive for a respectful work environment.
At our morning meeting last week, something was mentioned about formerly unclass stuff now becoming classified and how we’re gonna deal with that. One of the gov’t guys, who I do consider a pretty good person otherwise, just had to make a crack about “Hillary’s emails”. I chose not to point out Hegseth’s blatant disregard for OPSEC, classified info handlings, etc, as it would have brought more attention to the original comment than to just let it go with all the crosstalk.
I’m getting better at choosing my battles, hopefully.
Eolirin
@Suzanne: The people who think trans people are icky are more predisposed, statistically speaking, to think black people are icky, if they’re white.
These things are rarely siloed.
If you’ve got an emotional desire to be afraid of people who are different it’s usually going to cut across the whole spectrum. The enemy we have is fear, of greed, of sadism. Not the specific manifestations. Republicans embody those traits in their politics and their policies. Democrats are the only force that even remotely attempts to push back against them.
And we don’t do a good enough job on the greed front, which does hurt us. We were better able to fight that fight when we weren’t asking white people to give up their sadism and fear. But the human cost to that is untenable. White people need to be willing to go there for society to work.
Suzanne
@Eolirin:
I agree, but this state of affairs makes me crazy. We’re at a significant disadvantage now because we didn’t invest in it, a long time ago. And we didn’t invest in it because we essentially thought it wasn’t valuable. We (royal we) overestimated people and we didn’t put resources at being better competitors in a shifting media environment. We got comfortable.
me
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): Definitely. My mom is a realtor and a democrat but one of the only ones. When she has to decide which candidate to give her portion of the PAC money to she has to write it in because all the preprinted options are republicans.
Baud
@Betty Cracker:
They’re good at that. But it only works if you have am audience predisposed to believing it. A lot of people think our fight for equal rights is an attempt to give Others special rights.
People are also predisposed to believing Dems are rotten when it comes to the economy, national security, and crime.
Baud
@Betty Cracker:
They’re good at that. But it only works if you have am audience predisposed to believing it. A lot of people think our fight for equal rights is an attempt to give Others special rights.
People are also predisposed to believing Dems are rotten when it comes to the economy, national security, and crime.
Baud
@Betty Cracker:
They’re good at that. But it only works if you have am audience predisposed to believing it. A lot of people think our fight for equal rights is an attempt to give Others special rights.
People are also predisposed to believing Dems are rotten when it comes to the economy, national security, and crime.
The Audacity of Krope
If your only opinion on trans people involves womens’ sports and your only opinion on womens’ sports involves trans people, seems likely you don’t care about either and are merely trying to assert control over others.
lowtechcyclist
@Omnes Omnibus:
Yeah, and “are you better off than you were four years ago?” has been a campaign phrase for at least the past fifty years.
Anyway, sorry that even offering a suggestion is too much discord for you.
RandomMonster
Just sit right back and you’ll hear a tale
a tale of a fateful trip,
that started from this tropic port,
aboard this tiny ship.
The mate was a mighty sailin’ man,
the Skipper brave and sure,
five passengers set sail that day,
for a three hour tour,
a three hour tour.
Another Scott
@Eolirin: One thing we could start doing is enforcing punishments on people who are found to have violated their oaths of office or broken other laws.
No more selling of your office is just fine unless there is a video and a signed contract saying you’re explicitly selling your office. (I.e. Bob McDonnell goes to jail, Clarence goes to jail, 47 goes to jail, etc.). No more violating your oath of office. No more private negotiations and “deals” with foreign powers (that’s the State Department’s job). No more state governments trampling on federal responsibilities (Greg Abbott, etc., goes to jail).
Etc., etc.
As long as there are no consequences, this stuff will keep happening, more boundaries will be trampled, and there will be even more fixes required.
Grrr….
Thanks.
Best wishes,
Scott.
lowtechcyclist
@Eolirin:
Tru dat.
I’d suggest ‘inclusion’ as a better term for Dems to use, but I don’t want Omnes to get butthurt again.
Betty Cracker
@The Audacity of Krope: I think that’s 100% true of the Repubs who came up with the framing; it’s incredibly cynical. But people who don’t pay much attention to politics and don’t know (or don’t know they know) any trans people or think about the issue much (which is lots of people!) might be persuaded on the issue. They’re not all necessarily irredeemable bigots. That’s why liberals should engage on it rather than hope it goes away as some pols and consultants advise.
Suzanne
@Baud:
Those who never want to believe never will. But again, there’s a weird, incoherent, and relatively-small-but-pivotal slice out there that we sometimes get in our corner. If anybody who is motivated by civil rights, and thought that Dems defended them….. those people are not in that weird slice, they’re already Dems!
So what messages reach those people? That’s an important question! Maybe Pete reaches them, maybe he doesn’t, but I sure AF want to figure that out. And messages can be different; I don’t expect that what motivates a 28-year-old to vote is the same as what motivates a 65-year-old.
So, to Omnes’ point: try all the stuff and see what sticks.
Eolirin
@Betty Cracker: They’ve always done this, and all *isms are driven by it.
None of this stuff works if people aren’t afraid of differences.
Blood libel about Jews eating babies go back many hundreds of years.
So making it an attack on women, despite doing nothing to support women, is just part of the fabric of how any of this works.
There’s no distinction to be made there, it isn’t like there’s a version of transphobia where they’re not a threat to some other vulnerable but more sympathetic group.
Just like there’s not a version of racism against blacks where black men aren’t dangerous animals and there’s no version of antisemitism where Jews aren’t secretly controlling all of the things that make your life horrible, no version of xenophobia where the immigrants aren’t criminals and rapists and trying to take your jobs.
The primary means of spreading hate is always fear. They go hand and hand with each other.
Terraformer
@Suzanne: yup. I mean, if you’re not going to be aggressive when the MAGA regime is bulldozing every civic institution, then when *would* you be aggressive?
schrodingers_cat
@Baud: I am supposed to believe that we lost because of our messaging when the winning side’s message was immigrants are eating your pets.
Oh and the white women saving us because of Roe being overturned didn’t materialize either. He bettered his percentage among ww.
Rs won because their voters like what they are doing and voted for it
We need to focus on turning out the voters who voted for Biden and sat out the last election. Converting Trumpelstilkin’s voters is a fool’s errand.
the pollyanna from hell
@Geminid:
Sorry, no. Have heard no word of opposition to MTG from the right.
Eolirin
@Betty Cracker: We need to be doing that as citizens. Democratic politicians can’t always contradict their electorate as strongly when it’s already taken hold.
And a lot of this is driven by algorithmic isolation through social media. Facebook helped precipitate a literal genocide by signal boosting blood libel. Democratic messaging can’t break through the kind of content fragmentation we’re facing. The platforms are a huge problem.
Suzanne
@Terraformer: I have my own personal policy preferences and priorities, of course. But I am much more interested in who brings the gun to the gunfight right now. If you asked me my ten favorite Dems ATM, I would probably struggle to answer, but they would also be from all of the different wings of the party right now. Because, at this moment in time, I think the ability to motivate and connect effectively with people is the most critical ingredient in the special sauce.
Betty Cracker
@Eolirin: Well, thanks for the brief history of how bigotry works, but the point I was trying to make, badly, I guess, is that it’s important to try to counter that garbage because public opinion can shift. I’m old enough to remember when same sex marriage was illegal.
Josie
@rikyrah:
My immediate question is: Did it also pass the Senate. My guess would be: no. I’m off to do some research.
frosty
@lowtechcyclist: I’m not going to watch a three-hour interview. Or even a 15-minute interview. Write it down and let me read it. Or get an AI or something automated to transcribe it if you have to, like Paul Krugman does. Listening is a waste of time.
Eolirin
@Another Scott: We need a better supreme court to pull that off. They’ve made bribery legal.
lowtechcyclist
@frosty:
I’m with you on that. I can read the transcript of that 3-hour show in half an hour or less. I don’t listen to podcasts either for that same reason. Gimme text or go home.
Suzanne
@Betty Cracker: I don’t know why we give up on messaging and marketing in pursuit of persuasion. I think we feel like it’s vaguely dirty or something?
The Audacity of Krope
When I run into this issue, I tend to focus on participation. It is very important that everyone have a reasonable opportunity to be included.
The fairness issue inevitably comes up here, as though prior to awareness of the existence of trans people all teams everywhere were perfectly balanced. I typically assert here that there is nothing preventing sporting events being comparatively fair and everyone having a place they can be included. This is also where I say it should be left to sports governing bodies rather than the government.
Good faith people tend to accept this.
The other argument I tend to run into is that trans folk should just have their own league, effectively saying they should play with themselves. This is unrealistic and pointing out its lack of realism and gauging the reactions has been a surprisingly good indicator, in my experience, of whether your interlocutor is arguing in good faith.
Josie
@Josie:
Could not find an answer.
Omnes Omnibus
@lowtechcyclist: Whatever.
rikyrah
Chris Murphy![]()
(@ChrisMurphyCT) posted at 5:01 PM on Sun, May 04, 2025:
The Qatar Economic Forum is hosting a public session on how to make money off of Trump’s bribery and corruption schemes.
This is where we are. https://t.co/xZPpxiR6oU
(https://x.com/ChrisMurphyCT/status/1919150380329382222?t=OIVe_8bNAmppsVRTTvaGpg&s=03)
Betty Cracker
@Suzanne: Interesting. I think of messaging and marketing as tools of persuasion
ETA, not the only tools, but certainly in the toolkit!
sab
@schrodingers_cat: I think you are so right on the ” immigrants are eating our pets” being the message last Fall. I heard from our ADT installer, who thought he was being helpful in giving us information we might not know. He didn’t care at all about the price of eggs, but he did like our cats and dog.
rikyrah
Where’s the money coming from to pay them?
The Associated Press
@AP
BREAKING: The Trump administration says it will pay immigrants living illegally in the United States $1,000 to leave the country.
https://x.com/AP/status/1919407037613515116
Omnes Omnibus
@Suzanne: Aren’t they all just different words for the same fucking thing?
rikyrah
Howard ✡. 🟦🇮🇱🎗🧡
@HowardA_AtLaw
Blacks and Jews 2024: “ we’ve seen terrible, trust us, you don’t want Trump”
Young white gentile left: “ screw you, only our hatred of Israel/Jews matters, we will give you Trump”
Trump does terrible things
Leftists: “ why aren’t Blacks and Jews saving us?”
7:59 AM · May 5, 2025
https://x.com/HowardA_AtLaw/status/1919376302856958441
Betty Cracker
@The Audacity of Krope: Reasonable opportunity to participate is a good way to frame it, IMO. A fair-minded person would want that.
trollhattan
Buying access in Trumpworld, chapter the infinity.
For you youngin’s, St Ronaldus of Reaganshire eliminated the tax deduction on non-mortgage consumer interest–all interest not just car loans–during his reign of error a.k.a. Reagonomics.
Does Donny have the stones to question the genius of St. Ronaldus? Let’s ask Arthur Laffer (then shove him over a cliff edge).
Suzanne
@Betty Cracker: I phrased that poorly. My point is…. why do we give up on these things? We need to persuade people to our side to build political power. We need to appeal to people in different ways and via different media. We need to wield those tools effectively!
We lost last time, pretty definitively. Is the only lesson to be learned that Americans are irredeemably racist? If so, let’s hang it up, then. We’re done.
trollhattan
@rikyrah: Where? All those tariffs! Same ones that are ridding us of income tax.
Also: “Here I am, where’s my money?”
“Oh, you believed that? Now get onto that bus, sucker.”
Suzanne
@Omnes Omnibus: No, those words really aren’t synonymous.
JML
@rikyrah: if there’s anyone who got manipulated and fooled in the last election it was the pro-Palestinian movement. You had leaders who thought they could power-play Biden & Harris into a drastic change of policy, you had younger lefties who prefer to blame the Democrats pushing the narrative that it couldn’t be worse than Biden for Gaza, and look at how things are going now?
There’s literally no one in the US government that will lift a finger to prevent genocide in Gaza. The corrupt Netanyahu government is going to occupy and almost certainly unleash atrocities and blame terrorism. It will almost certainly unleash reprisals and new terror attacks.
But yelling “Genocide Joe” was fun…
JML
@trollhattan: the exceptions on tips and overtime are exactly the sort of thing that will be in the initial tax package, and then mysteriously get “left out” in the final deal and then it’ll get blamed on Democrats for exploding the deficit.
And since management consistently screws workers on overtime and steals tips anyways…
rikyrah
@JML:
we told them
we told them
we told them
vote for harm reduction.
vote for those who DID NOT SAY that Gaza=Beachfront condos
there’s nothing to be said.
They were warned. They ignored us.
rikyrah
@JML:
Nobody’s getting overtime. They already told you in Project 2025 how they’re going to eliminate overtime.
rikyrah
John Pfaff
@johnpfaff.bsky.social
Hey! Press covering Trump!
The statute that lets him impose tariffs at will? It EXPLICITLY excludes movies.
He has no authority to do this. Not just bc of an absence of authorization, but bc the law says “you CANNOT do this.”
Do NOT say “Trump has imposed movie tariffs,” bc he did not. He CANNOT.
Downpuppy
@downpuppy.bsky.social
chemiclord
@rikyrah:
One near little factoid I learned from my brother (who lives in Troy, MI) is that he found it interesting how they made Gaza such an issue abruptly, especially among a population that isn’t particularly Palestinian.
What they ARE committed to is stomping on LGBTQ people, and Gaza gave them the excuse they needed to side with the GOP.
schrodingers_cat
No all Americans are not irredeemably racist but far too many are comfortable with racists. Bigotry was a large factor in the race for the WH. KH did not win the popular vote. And unless we sit down and accept that bigotry was a huge factor in the Orange One’s win we are not going to be able to come up with a strategy or messaging to beat that reality
Trumpian message did not work with most of the victims of the said bigotry, black people, Jewish people, LGBTQ people, most immigrant and other minority groups, women of every demographic other than the default
If I were a D elected I would try to figure out why so many 2020 Biden voters sat out the election. If we had the 2020 electorate we would be in a different reality right now.
The Audacity of Krope
@JML: So, I’m conflicted on this.
For one thing, we have a concrete example in the news this week about how Trump and Biden have handled Palestine differently. Trump administration is negotiating with Israel to have private military contractors be in charge of aid distribution and creatively offer/restrict it as a weapon against Hamas.
The Biden administration refused a similar proposal, arguing rightly that it is immoral and against international law to manipulate access to international assistance as a weapon of war.
We always knew Biden/Harris were better on this issue, though still deeply problematic.
Still, I find the argument offensive that voters needed to take a relative view on genocide. Faster harsher genocide v a slower one with more public support, I can fully understand why supporters of civil rights at the global level just…didn’t go for that.
trollhattan
@JML:
I expect they’ll also drop ending the SALT ceiling so as to screw over wealthier states whose citizens collide into it headfirst every April 15.
Geminid
@the pollyanna from hell: I don’t think Colton Moore has said anything about challenging Greene, but he wouldn’t. Right now he’s making his name fighting Georgia’s state Republican establishment.
Unlike Greene, Moore is a native of Northwest Georgia. His parents own a large trucking and excavation company, and deal in heavy equipment. Moore got his CDL at age 18 and won the contest for top Georgia auctioneer when he 21. He knocked off an incumbent state Representative when he was 25, and then moved up to the state Senate.
Moore is a “young man in a hurry,” and Marge Greene had better keep an eye on him. She’s in his way. I doubt if he’ll go after her next year but I won’t be surprised if he does in 2028.
Betty Cracker
@schrodingers_cat: Is there a commenter on this blog who denies that racism played a role in Harris’s defeat? From what I’ve seen, commenters seem to fall into two camps: 1) racism played a big role but wasn’t the only factor, and 2) racism was the reason, case closed. (The latter commenters will generally allow that sexism was a factor too if pressed on it.)
Baud
@rikyrah:
Appears to be true.
Suzanne
@Betty Cracker: Also, knowing that racism is a huge issue in America….. what exactly is the proposal? Is someone of the opinion that telling Americans that they are racist is going to win more people to our side? Even if it is true!
NotMax
@Suzanne
Short watch on Edward Bernays and “the engineering of consent.”
zhena gogolia
@Suzanne: The proposal is that we white people become honest with ourselves, and with the situation we are in. If not for racism, we would not be in this position. And until we acknowledge that, we cannot move forward.
schrodingers_cat
@Betty Cracker: Yes there are many here who try to immediately change the subject to messaging, capitalism and Biden’s age upon any mention of racism and xenophobia and other bigotries that won the day for the Orange One.
And FWIW I don’t think that racism and its cousin white privilege were the only reasons for our loss but they are the biggest underlying factors of American politics. From the 3/5 compromise to this day.
Citizen Dave
@trollhattan:
Personally I’d like push Arthur Laffer enough so he would traverse down a very large Curve until he achieves terminal velocity.
Baud
@Suzanne:
Tax cuts for wealthy people seems to be a winner.
Belafon
@The Audacity of Krope: When I was in middle school, I tended to have advantage over other tennis players of comparable skill level because I was left handed. I wonder if that meant all of us lefties should have been in our own league.
Suzanne
@zhena gogolia: So I think that if you are waiting for people to “get honest with themselves”, you will wait forever. You will lose in the meantime.
In the meantime, can we appeal on another axis? Economics? The environment?
NotMax
@Baud
“Winner, winner, eagle dinner.”
// // // //
schrodingers_cat
@zhena gogolia: Thanks. May be they will listen to you. Or not. They will be particularly dense and misconstrue what you are saying.
The Audacity of Krope
@zhena gogolia: Also, too, renounce whiteness. Ain’t no culture behind it other than the false assertion of superiority over others.
dww44
I decided on the 2nd day of this administration, after seeing the bravery and class of Rev. Mariann Budde, that she would be my avatar. I also decided that I would figure out how to forgo the past decades of interactions with family and friends where we all decided to go along and get along by deciding to not discuss politics at all. The great majority of those around me, both family and friends and acquaintances, are committed Republican voters. If the candidate has an R next to his or name, that’s who’s gonna get their vote no matter what.
I’ve long been internally screaming to them as individuals, “Can you not see what kind of person Trump is? But, alas, they’ve voted 3 times for Trump. Most of these family members I’m so disappointed in were raised as I was: poor, rural, agricultural, without the benefit of higher education (my parents and grandparents generations) but with a belief in the value of honest hard work and a disdain for those who didn’t. Character mattered to them. And although many in my generation were afforded a college education, they”ve found a way to internally justify their continuing votes for him despite the evidence to the contrary. My sister (one of 4 admitted liberals in our extended family) believes their brains have been warped by 30 plus years of Fox News and conservative talk radio.
Nevertheless I have selectively begun confronting them, via group texts with the closest few of them and a more broad outreach via bcc emails in an appeal to their support and belief in our democracy. One from each of those groups, both males, have separately requested to be removed from my mailing list. And members of my extended family via my spouse, most of whom started voting for Democrats in 2008, were pretty blunt about not letting Trump consume their days. In other words, they’re not gonna do anything to visibly push back even though they despise Trump and what he’s doing to our country.
I continue to be proactive…I’ve attended every public demonstration that has occurred locally as they truly make me feel better. I contact my Republican Congressperson, but not as much as I should. I am not as brave and as outspoken as I should be, but I am not silent either. I do believe that we cannot be silent as doing so means we cede our democracy to autocrats.
trollhattan
@Betty Cracker:
Misogamy, racism, anti-incumbency. #s 2,3,1 on my scorecard.
NotMax
@Belafon
The Sinister Sports Society does have a certain ring to it.
;) //
schrodingers_cat
@Baud: Throwing minorities under the bus is also a big winner. If they are immigrants on GCs or long term visas who can’t vote, its a win-win.
The Audacity of Krope
There may well have been a time not so long ago where that may have been viewed as a suggestion with some merit.
Suzanne
I will note that Barack Obama, who knows an great deal about how to craft a public image and win elections in a racist country, pretty explicitly attempted to flatter white people into thinking that they aren’t racist.
Should white people work on themselves? Yes. Will saying that help us win stuff. Doubtful.
dww44
@Betty Cracker: I’m in category 1. Racism/misogyny was a cause, but other factors were as well. I continue to believe that lacking parity in the media we suffered from weak messaging and were (and are unable) to compete in the media sphere. The legacy media who should have been totally anti Trump were somewhat cowed and have always found it easier to dump on Democrats than on Republicans. That’s because of the “almighty dollar”. We see that in the bowing and scraping continuing to occur. There’s nothing more surprising to me than the bending the knee by our elites. attorneys, colleges and universities, etc.
Baud
@dww44:
Good for you. Sorry about your family.
Professor Bigfoot
@lowtechcyclist: I’ve (rhetorically, of course) asked plaintively, “can these people write anymore?”
I HATE having to sit through a 20 minute video when I could have read everything in it in 3.
Citizen Alan
Every accusation is a confession.
The Audacity of Krope
I’m in this camp, myself, though I’d put the sexism over the racism. I’d also like to add that Dems’ own internal bigotries played a role in weakening support among some minority groups. Effectively, Democrats are the party of civil rights, but still weak on civil rights.
As important as I see economic issues to be, I can’t get past the fact that any suggestion to improve people’s lives broadly is met with the notion of someone undeserving potentially benefitting from any fix, thus making the whole thing not viable. This isn’t just racially coded, it’s in bright gaudy full racist display.
Meanwhile, the actual least deserving people in the world continue to accrue their billions.
Betty Cracker
@trollhattan: Sounds about right.
@schrodingers_cat: I don’t claim to read every comment on the blog, but I haven’t seen people changing the subject because they’re in denial about the role racism plays. I’ve seen commenters noting that Dems are losing share across demographics and wondering what to do about that. Maybe it’s because I live in a state where there is a multi-ethnic pro-MAGA coalition that spans income brackets and has left Dems completely locked out of state-level power, that seems like a legit topic to me.
Suzanne
@Betty Cracker: Here’s my concern: when there is a broad-based social movement to get people to “get honest with themselves”….. DEI, and critical race theory, reading “White Fragility”, and #MeToo and toxic masculinity, all this stuff…. we create a backlash and lose.
We have not found a way to bring people along, emotionally.
Geminid
@rikyrah: One thing about that new Israeli plan to subdue Gaza: a “senior Israeli defense official” told reporters the IDF will only launch its big offensive if Hamas doesn’t agree to the “Witkoff plan” for a ceasefire. The deadline, the official said, was by the end of Trump’s trip to the Gulf states. He’s supposed to make stops in Saudi Arabia, the UAE and Qatar May 13-16.
If May 16 is in fact the deadline, I suspect it’s the deadline for Israel as well as Hamas. I think that for his own reasons, Trump wants this war stopped by the time he leaves the Gulf, and Netanyahu’s political position is such that he cannot afford to cross Trump on this matter.
The Audacity of Krope
The answer, as always, is to deal with bigots ever more delicately. There surely exists a point where if we express our criticism just so that they understand the message with no possibility of feeling disrespected and, thusly, rejecting our arguments without consideration; we will break through to them. Like a graph of a negative exponential of X where it forever approaches zero and never…quite…reaches it.
If that isn’t acceptable, we can say fuck the bigots and work to protect our communities and friends.
Omnes Omnibus
@Geminid: Trump may want the war stopped, but we may not like the way it happens.
Suzanne
@The Audacity of Krope: You know that we used to win, right? Relatively recently? Were we less racist then? Less sexist or less transphobic?
The Cocaine Banana lady has a more pragmatic and plausible case of building political power than most at this point.
The Audacity of Krope
It trends up and down, but Democrats have definitely been on a “more bigoted” swing lately. Mainly age and religion for Democrats specifically, but race and gender identity still show.
Another Scott
The biggest problem we have is that almost all the evidence points to people that decide elections – the mushy middle – don’t vote for policies. They vote for personalities, who they trust more with their gut, who more seems to be from their tribe, who doesn’t make them angry if they think about voting for them (for whatever reason). Etc.
I mean, we have 3 elections with 47 to consider. People in the mushy middle didn’t believe his stated policies – and rightfully so, he said whatever he thought got the most applause at his precious rallies. They voted for him because enough in the squishy middle couldn’t stand HRC or they just couldn’t turn out and vote for a black woman. Counterfactuals are fun, but I think that a decent thought-experiment case can be made that if Harris had the same policies and experience and had been a middle-aged white guy instead, then s/he probably would have won. Even with all the screaming about “record inflation” and all the rest.
So, yeah, racism and sexism and all the rest is a huge problem in the USA. And I’m not sure what we can quickly do about that – especially while we’re in the minority.
But every election is different. I don’t think that we’re doomed to always lose. Personalities matter a lot, probably much more than stated policies for far too many, when it comes to actually winning races.
In my head, I keep going back to Jimmy Carter’s race for Governor. He ran as a more racist guy in the primary than the other guy – said he was “proud” to earlier be on the ticket with Lester Maddox – he had to do that to win the race. Once he got in office, he had the power to start breaking down many of the racist barriers that held the state back.
The first step in implementing policies is winning elections. Doing so is often a very messy process, and we can’t confuse what’s necessary to win elections with the policies that we want to implement. They’re different things.
Thanks.
Best wishes,
Scott.
schrodingers_cat
@Betty Cracker: I have no idea why I keep commenting here hoping to be understood. Its an exercise in futility.
The Audacity of Krope
@schrodingers_cat: I understand. You want your comments taken at face value and lauded for genius and not even examined or criticized in any tiny way.
schrodingers_cat
@The Audacity of Krope: I don’t. But thanks for proving my point.
Gloria DryGarden
@the pollyanna from hell: your maga “friends?”
The Audacity of Krope
@Gloria DryGarden: Most of us have had them. I could understand some people keeping them. Receiving a steady stream of death threats convinced me to leave mine behind.
Geminid
@Omnes Omnibus: Well, that’s a cryptic enough statement. Do you have some scenario in mind?
Another Scott
Someone earlier mentioned US literacy rates. This US county-level map is interesting. There’s a similar one for US numeracy.
Look at all that blue (or green) for Less Than or Equal to #1 for age 65-74… Since oldsters turn out to vote more than others…
:-/
Best wishes,
Scott.
The Audacity of Krope
@schrodingers_cat: I can’t know what’s in your mind and your heart. That is what I perceive from all the invective and lack of engagement with others (that works two ways).
Gloria DryGarden
@The Audacity of Krope: I do, too. Some who were very close.
And I won’t argue much with them, though they repeat lies. When people don’t listen and are committed to koolaid, it’s hard for me. I haven’t cut them off, but I go infrequently.
in this case, I know Pollyanna in the real world, and I know he’s been in a new red state in the Mtg district, and I know exactly how often he’s around maga folks and how often, if ever, he gets to talk to democrats or Unitarians. Part of why I call him a lot and bug the ever living fuck out of him. Poor guy/ he’s lucky. Plus he likes some of my poetry, and knows me well.
It’s hard to watch a best friend be surrounded by non kin, non like minded folks, to watch him beleaguered, but far enough away from the places he might make real connections, that it’s hard to get to.
He has the patience and calm of a saint around the people he interacts with at his nearest church, where they drink and promote the koolaid, and really can’t hear his pov.
frosty
I can’t remember where I heard it, 50(?) years ago, but there are three underlying divisions in US politics. As you said, the last one has been part of our history since the 3/5 days … and before.
war and peace
guns and butter
black and white
Gloria DryGarden
@Geminid: the idea that N can’t afford to cross T, boggles the mind. But if it helps shut N down some, good. I guess.
I f some wars might end, but not in a way we like, is there any use in being prepared ahead for heinous things to unfold? Predicting nasty events, will it help …? I hope omnes clarifies for you.
is there a war that did “end” in a way we liked? I’m thinking this is relative.
im not arguing here.
dnfree
@The Audacity of Krope: MLK pointed out that for a lot of white people, blacks were just “asking” wrong, and if only they asked exactly the right way maybe things would improve.
Gloria DryGarden
I’m thinking of the old myth where the guy goes to the underworld to get his wife back. His instructions were to walk forward, look forward, don’t look back.
he goofed, and looked back, she turned into stone, or a pillar of salt (like gold in those days, but you can’t take it with you, if it’s a pillar)
when people here look back, spin wheels in anger, pointing fingers at our issues that were / are part of the problem, (misogyny, racism, internecine strife, dissing a firmer candidate) it seems static. I’m interested in the part about what’s your plan. What do you want others to do, how shall we be, what can help. The past is safe for a glance, to resolve something, to find out what you need, to inform you of a different course of action. Too much, and you turn to stone.
But then, like our guy in the myth, we need to keep our eyes on the track, look forward to what we can create. try a bunch of going forward plans and actions, see what works.
What, did you think that wasn’t a teaching story?
my 2 cents
ymmv
TurnItOffAndOnAgain
@Suzanne: How about frame racism as being bad for the economy? It has the benefit of being true.
Propaganda has hooked racist policies to financial prosperity. The olden days are a dog whistle: everything was better when Those People knew their place.
It definitely didn’t have anything to do with the top 1% paying more taxes. No.
Fuck man, that’s a big part of how Obama won; the economy was spiraling and the McCain folks’ messaging in response to it was bad.
The Audacity of Krope
Sounds like an earlier version of the same cynical joke I was making.
schrodingers_cat
@The Audacity of Krope: I engage with people who don’t call me names. And sometimes even with them.
The Audacity of Krope
@schrodingers_cat: Names? Who? Where?
Bupalos
@Baud: He’s articulate and whip-smart….but that isn’t what makes him effective actually. The thing he has that you actually need in this era (and it’s something Trump has too) is just to be able to actually appear natural in your skin (even if it’s a weird orange snake skin) such that voters can place you and feel like they understand you, figure out what you are, figure out what language you’re speaking, hear you and interact with that. It can’t be the language of the DC/Coastal-Image-management breed that palpably worries about its veneer.
This is what Buttigiege bring in this interview. He takes risks every thirty seconds, because he understands that the real risk is not taking any risk, and that you’re allowed to fuck up spectacularly with no adverse effect you can’t easily recover from…because things are so messy. He has no fear about entering conversations that he isn’t ready for and doesn’t know where they go.
Trump has erased boundary lines, but what that means is that you have to be willing and able to play outside the old lines or you look fake.
Buttigiege’s success here is about 95% that he doesn’t look fake. As soon as you can manage that, people can consider what you’re saying.
Baud
@Bupalos:
Sincerity is the most important thing in politics. If you can fake that, you’ll go far.
Betty Cracker
@The Audacity of Krope: Ooo! Ooo! I know!
I called her “a crank” on the topic of “the left” once.
Geminid
@Gloria DryGarden: This is what The Economist’s Anshel Pfeffer said about Trump and Netanyahu’s joint press appearance in early April:
Netanyahu is weak at home politically, and his allies in the Republican party won’t back him in a dispute with Trump like they did when he defied Joe Biden. If Trump insists on a ceasefire deal Netanyahu has no recourse but to accept it.
As for what that ceasefire deal will be, I don’t think it will be much different than the one Netanyahu has been trying to wriggle out of since he signed off on its first phase in late January. But it sounds like we’ll find out by May 16.
Now, it’s possible the new deal will be much more one-sided than that one;. It could even allow displacement of 2.2 million Gazans, which is what people worty about, but I doubt that. The Arab leaders Trump will visit adamantly oppose that population transfer, and I believe they swing more weight with Trump than Netanyahu does. They’ve got the money Trump craves, while Netanyahu is just a pain in Trump’s ass. Trump has dealt with Netanyahu plenty now, and no leader who has dealt with Netanyahu respects him; they all know he’s a self-interested liar.
The Audacity of Krope
So, I try to avoid direct name-calling until all other avenues have failed. I prefer describing the behavior I am seeing.
I’d be hard pressed to say that I haven’t, in the past, described a crank.
Bupalos
@Baud: Absolutely. Of course, the best acting is method acting. If you can just inhabit a character, you can play it to the hilt in ways you never could otherwise. And the best way to inhabit a character is to just be that character.
Also this main dude that’s interacting with Mayo Pete is low-key kinda a communications genius. He’s better at it than Mayo, and I’m only 1/3 of the way through but more than once Mayo actually missed the guy’s more intelligent question and answered it by what he was expecting to be asked.
Gloria DryGarden
@Geminid: thanks for this great answer. Now I understand more. Much appreciated.
T can recognize this in another, just not in himself? He has any kind of truth meter? I thought perhaps he just measures “respect” “strength” and what’s in it for him. But what do I know?
my banker knows financial analysts who know him and think well of him… strange. Surpassing strange.
comrade scotts agenda of rage
@Bupalos:
Sec Pete, my old boss (if you count being probably 8 levels above me at DOT). He was a breath of fresh air in 2020 and while I don’t like his stance on some policy issues, the rest of him makes it okay (in stark contrast to somebody like Governor GoodHair II from CA).
I agree with everything you said in terms of why he’s successful to date, that sincerity. Biden had it. Walz has it. Warren has it.
Gloria DryGarden
@Bupalos: hey, are you on blue sky?
Yesterday you wrote “ diversity is our strength” and I assigned myself a haiku prompt with that. I wrote some things off that idea, thank you so much for inspiring me. It’s posted on blue sky, you can see it there. Got another poet thinking with me on it, too.
if someone here finds them and wants to copy paste any of it here, go ahead, I give permission. I understand poetry is not everyone’s thing around here.
Gloria DryGarden
@comrade scotts agenda of rage: I sense they really are sincere.
Gloria DryGarden
@Betty Cracker: see comment #184. I’m actually alluding to this.
schrodingers_cat
@Betty Cracker: I thought you disapproved of talking about commenters in a thread in the third person.
The Audacity of Krope
If I may propose a rule in this regard, don’t say anything about someone you wouldn’t say to that person. Not just here, in life.
WaterGirl
@Another Scott:
Key point, thanks for making it. It’s also a new rotating tag.
WaterGirl
@schrodingers_cat: I think that’s me, not Betty.
In this case, Betty wasn’t talking about you behind your back, in front of your face.
Someone challenged you to name a time that someone here called you a name, and Betty said she had. I see that more as confirming your statement.
Kayla Rudbek
@Nukular Biskits: one of my senators here in Virginia doesn’t take voicemail messages, which really irritates me and makes me want to see him retire or lose in the primary.