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You are here: Home / Civil Rights / Sunday Morning Open Thread

Sunday Morning Open Thread

by Anne Laurie|  May 18, 20258:34 am| 308 Comments

This post is in: Civil Rights, Music, Religion

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Since Donald Trump is freaking out about Bruce Springsteen calling this the most corrupt, incompetent and treasonous administration, it would be a shame if this video was shared even more widely….

[image or embed]

— dharmalee3 (@dharmalee3.bsky.social) May 16, 2025 at 7:40 PM

Full Bruce comments here:
mdavis19881.substack.com/p/watch-spri…

[image or embed]

— Mike Davis • Feed After Midnight (@mjdavis1988.bsky.social) May 17, 2025 at 2:18 PM

Sunday Morning Open Thread 18

(Jack Ohman via GoComix,com)

Pope Leo XIV, history’s first American pope, is vowing to work for unity so that the Catholic Church becomes a sign of peace in the world. Leo has offered a message of communion during an inaugural Mass in St. Peter’s Square before tens of thousands of people, presidents, patriarchs and princes.

[image or embed]

— The Associated Press (@apnews.com) May 18, 2025 at 5:17 AM

Happy Feast of Thurgood Marshall Day to all my Episcopal friends.

[image or embed]

— Sherrilyn Ifill (@sifill.bsky.social) May 17, 2025 at 1:08 PM

This weekend, Baltimore pays tribute to a towering figure in American history: Justice Thurgood Marshall, the first African American Justice appointed to the U.S. Supreme Court.

The celebration, anchored by a special Episcopal feast day, brings together civic leaders, faith communities, and families to honor Marshall’s enduring legacy in civil rights and education.

The centerpiece of the commemoration is being held at the Cathedral of the Episcopal Diocese of Maryland, located at 4 East University Parkway. The event began at 9:00 a.m. on Saturday and is open to the public throughout the day.

Reverend Al Hathaway, President and CEO of the Beloved Community Services Corporation, joined FOX45 News to highlight the significance of the event and the historical impact of Justice Marshall’s work.

This year’s celebration marks the 71st anniversary of the landmark 1954 Brown v. Board of Education decision, which struck down racial segregation in public schools. As lead attorney for the NAACP, Thurgood Marshall was instrumental in the case.

Hathaway emphasized the significance of the Brown v. Board ruling: “If you think about it, separate but equal, which was the Plessy v. Ferguson… basically they had distinct different school systems. Now this joins school systems together.”

He also pointed to Baltimore’s critical role in implementing school desegregation. “Baltimore City was the first school system south of the Mason-Dixie line to desegregate. Walter Sondheim, D’Alessandro led that effort. And so now we’re talking about, okay, this is living history.”

In addition to the feast day observance, the weekend includes a variety of activities, including book signings, educational talks, and community gatherings. Key speakers at Saturday’s event include Maryland House Speaker Adrienne Jones, the Honorable Wanda Heard, and Bishop Eugene Sutton of the Episcopal Diocese….

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    308Comments

    1. 1.

      Baud

      May 18, 2025 at 8:38 am

      Bruce, the Pope, and Thurgood. Interesting line up.

      Reply
    2. 2.

      m.j.

      May 18, 2025 at 8:44 am

      Take the popemobile and drive it to Gaza along with an aid caravan.

      Reply
    3. 3.

      Baud

      May 18, 2025 at 8:44 am

      In other news, the current concerted effort to divide Democrats apparently continues apace. Apparently, there was a Bernie Bro op/ed in USA Today basically saying Bernie should have won.

      I saw the headline on Reddit, and didn’t click on the article, but thankfully the Reddit thread I was in was having none of it, so that was heartening, since there are a lot of Bernie fans there.

      Anyway, just be careful out there.

      Reply
    4. 4.

      Baud

      May 18, 2025 at 8:45 am

      @m.j.:

      Pretty sure the Pope only needs five loaves of bread and two fish.

      Reply
    5. 5.

      Manyakitty

      May 18, 2025 at 8:55 am

      @Baud: OMG they won’t let it go. Exhausting.

      Reply
    6. 6.

      Baud

      May 18, 2025 at 8:56 am

      The morning-after pill is coming to a convenience store near you

      Reply
    7. 7.

      Chief Oshkosh

      May 18, 2025 at 8:57 am

      @Baud: USA Today has been running some downright wacko op-eds recently. The Trump-supporting ones are microcosms of all that is wrong with MAGA and the human condition in general. So a Bernie-bro op-ed is what? Balance?

      Reply
    8. 8.

      m.j.

      May 18, 2025 at 8:58 am

      @Baud:

      Red fish or blue fish?

      Reply
    9. 9.

      Baud

      May 18, 2025 at 8:58 am

      @Manyakitty:

      I don’t like rewarding articles like that with clicks, but it does leave me hamstrung to convey what it actually said or even who wrote it.  The reactions in the Reddit comments were pretty striking, however.

      Reply
    10. 10.

      Shalimar

      May 18, 2025 at 9:01 am

      I feel a little bad for Clarence Thomas.  He does have genuine accomplishments and achievements, he’s getting closer amd closer to death, but all history will remember him as is the corrupt piece of shit who wasn’t 1/10th the man that Thurgood Marshall was.

      A good reminder to never let the hatred and spite overwhelm who you are.

      Reply
    11. 11.

      JPL

      May 18, 2025 at 9:02 am

      @m.j.: Why not both.

      Reply
    12. 12.

      JPL

      May 18, 2025 at 9:04 am

      @Shalimar: I can’t think of one his rulings that benefited the populace.  He’s too busy dining with his cronies.

      Reply
    13. 13.

      m.j.

      May 18, 2025 at 9:05 am

      @JPL:

      I was just trying to suess it out.

      Reply
    14. 14.

      Manyakitty

      May 18, 2025 at 9:09 am

      @Baud: fair enough. I’m with you about starving them for clicks. It’s all just engagement farming. Everything is gross.

      Reply
    15. 15.

      Shalimar

      May 18, 2025 at 9:10 am

      @JPL: It has been decades since law school so i can’t cite individual cases, but there were moments before 9/11 where he did vote for the libertarian side of some issues when they clashed with standard Republican goals.  That was a long, long time ago.

      Reply
    16. 16.

      NotMax

      May 18, 2025 at 9:10 am

      Weekend watch.

      Nature be strange.

      Reply
    17. 17.

      MagdaInBlack

      May 18, 2025 at 9:10 am

      @Shalimar: He chose this path. I have no sympathy.

      Reply
    18. 18.

      Baud

      May 18, 2025 at 9:11 am

      @Manyakitty:

      Everything is gross.

       

      Yeah, I feel it too.

      Reply
    19. 19.

      Baud

      May 18, 2025 at 9:14 am

      @Shalimar:

      A good reminder to never let the hatred and spite overwhelm who you are.

       
      Too late.

      Reply
    20. 20.

      Shalimar

      May 18, 2025 at 9:16 am

      @Baud: I still have all of my time travel/alternate worlds rpgs if they want to spend their time roleplaying that out instead of annoying other people with their fantasies.

      Reply
    21. 21.

      karen gail

      May 18, 2025 at 9:20 am

      After seeing the sly and greedy look on Trump’s face as he received and opened gift of drop of oil I was blown away by the look of quiet humility on Zelenskyy’s face as he once again humbles himself for the good of the Ukraine people.  One is willing to do anything to help and support his country while the other is willing to do anything to enrich himself and his fellow billionaires.

      After seeing these pictures I was struck by comment from one of the blogs I read daily; we are actually in the third reign and power of oligarchy. The writer commented that US “founding fathers” were actually oligarchy; they were the rich and powerful who bought themselves a new government at the expense of poor, slaves and servants.

      Reply
    22. 22.

      Geminid

      May 18, 2025 at 9:24 am

      Ragnarok Lobster (eclecticbroth.bsky.social) reposted this from Mariana Z:

         A recent study has found that women who carry a little extra weight live longer than the men who mention it.

      Reply
    23. 23.

      Manyakitty

      May 18, 2025 at 9:26 am

      @Geminid: accurate

      Reply
    24. 24.

      Betty Cracker

      May 18, 2025 at 9:33 am

      Someone on Bluesky said Springsteen and Taylor Swift should give a free concert in DC on the other side of town on the same day Trump makes the military roll tanks, missiles, troops, etc., past a reviewing stand to celebrate his own birthday. Not a bad idea!

      @Geminid: lmao!

      Reply
    25. 25.

      New Deal democrat

      May 18, 2025 at 9:35 am

      He has a great legacy, but let me point out one blemish. He along with Justice Brennan refused to retire in the late 1970s because Carter was too conservative, so they decided to wait for the next, more liberal, Democratic President.

      We got lucky when Brennan was replaced by Souter. But as we all know, Marshall was replaced by Thomas.

      The main thing I want to reinforce by this point is what a disaster the appointment system for Supreme Court Justices is. If Marshall had retired in Carter’s term, and Ginsberg while Obama had a Democratic Senate, the country we live in would be entirely different. Insane!

      Reply
    26. 26.

      Baud

      May 18, 2025 at 9:36 am

      @karen gail:

      The Founders were oligarchs, but they did actually fight and put their lives in the line.  Strikes me as different than the Gilded Age and the current situation.

      Reply
    27. 27.

      Baud

      May 18, 2025 at 9:38 am

      @New Deal democrat:

      Alternative histories are fun. I personally like to imagine what things would be like if voters didn’t take Democrats for granted.

      Reply
    28. 28.

      RevRick

      May 18, 2025 at 9:41 am

      @m.j.: I see what you did there

      Reply
    29. 29.

      artem1s

      May 18, 2025 at 9:43 am

      @Baud: 

      Apparently, there was a Bernie Bro op/ed in USA Today basically saying Bernie should have won

      Ah, so the effort to keep Bernie grift going is preceeding. That explains, in part, the recent attacks on Biden running for a second term. Of course if all those Blahs and wimmenz had voted for the true Savior to begin with we wouldn’t be in this mess, right?
      that asshole needs to fuck off into the sun. If AOC ties her wagon to that vote splitter it will not help her or her constituents.

      Reply
    30. 30.

      narya

      May 18, 2025 at 9:46 am

      @Betty Cracker: They probably couldn’t get a permit anywhere in DC (though the Mall would have been awesome), but there have to be stadia not far outside of DC. And make it a voter registration drive while we’re at it . . . I’ve been a Bruce fan most of my life (I grew up in NJ, so heard the early albums when they were released, on local radio). And I’ve probably seen him 25-30 times. I’m so glad he’s speaking out.

      Reply
    31. 31.

      comrade scotts agenda of rage

      May 18, 2025 at 9:47 am

      The Founders, for all their myriad faults, were, by and large, not ignorant or willfully ignorant people.

      That in itself contrasts them to the modern GOP.

      Oh, and no sympathy for Uncle Clarence.  Accomplishments?  One of his early notable ones was the sexual harassment of a female co-worker.  I don’t give a crap whatever limited SC rulings he might have made later on.

      Reply
    32. 32.

      Matt McIrvin

      May 18, 2025 at 9:48 am

      @Betty Cracker: DC is a federal death zone–Trump can pardon murder there. That might make it particularly dangerous.

      Reply
    33. 33.

      suzanne

      May 18, 2025 at 9:51 am

      @Shalimar:

      I feel a little bad for Clarence Thomas.  He does have genuine accomplishments and achievements, he’s getting closer amd closer to death 

      Dying might be the best thing he ever does for the country.

      Reply
    34. 34.

      New Deal democrat

      May 18, 2025 at 9:52 am

      @Baud: I personally would like to see a system that doesn’t have such a gaping weakness.

      Reply
    35. 35.

      Baud

      May 18, 2025 at 9:53 am

      @New Deal democrat:

      As would I. Not sure if it’s possible absent a seismic cultural change.

      Reply
    36. 36.

      p.a.

      May 18, 2025 at 9:57 am

      @suzanne: I feel a little bad for Clarence Thomas.  He does have genuine accomplishments and achievements, he’s getting closer and closer to death.  Dying might be the best thing he ever does for the country.

       

       

      Imagine living a life where your gravesite will need guarding or need to be in a secret location.

      Reply
    37. 37.

      JML

      May 18, 2025 at 10:04 am

      @New Deal democrat: this is seriously revisionist history, though. Asking Thurgood Marshall, the first black Justice in the US history to retire after less than 12 years on the bench was never seriously contemplated. He certainly never had any desire to leave the bench. I doubt there was much conversation about replacing Brennan at the time either, as he was in good health and the leader of the liberal wing of the court. (and if Brennan had stepped off, who knows whether Blackmun would have continuing moving left?) This has become much more of a modern conceit arguing for Justices to time when they retire, mostly because the GOP has gotten more picks and put so many stinkers on the bench. It didn’t come up like this when Carter was president.

      Reply
    38. 38.

      comrade scotts agenda of rage

      May 18, 2025 at 10:09 am

      @JML:

      Exactly.

      Oh, and I should have put ‘accomplishments’ above in quotation marks.

      Reply
    39. 39.

      Professor Bigfoot

      May 18, 2025 at 10:10 am

      @Manyakitty: “Tiresome.”

      Reply
    40. 40.

      Kayla Rudbek

      May 18, 2025 at 10:10 am

      Reposted from downstairs: I don’t know if Suzanne is around, but when I saw this article on CNN, I thought of how she’s said that the dudebros and Republicans hate the injected weight loss medications and regard them as cheating; the meds appear to work better for women than for men (one of the few instances I can recall of this) https://www.cnn.com/2025/05/16/health/glp-1-weight-loss-medications-women-men

      from the article, it’s not clear why it does work better for women (various factors mentioned) but I immediately thought “oh, it works better for women than diet and exercise, so of course they want to take it away”

      Reply
    41. 41.

      Dorothy A. Winsor

      May 18, 2025 at 10:10 am

      @suzanne: Yes, but he shouldn’t die now. Trump would appoint his replacement

      Reply
    42. 42.

      They Call Me Noni

      May 18, 2025 at 10:15 am

      @New Deal democrat: Or if Turtle McConnell hadn’t twisted norms into knots…

      Right after FFOTUS I hold a special kind of hatred for him.  All he had to do was vote yes on the second impeachment and enough R’s would have fallen in line to impeach.

      Reply
    43. 43.

      sab

      May 18, 2025 at 10:16 am

      This is hilarious. My office does these annoying text things where everyone texts but we don’t know who from or why. Today is apparently the managing partners birthday so I am getting Happy Birthday! texts. Lots of them.

      But today is also Stepmothers’ Day. So expecting messages from kids. Should I forward my messages to him? Bye the way he is a really lovely person. Not your usual managing partner.

      Reply
    44. 44.

      suzanne

      May 18, 2025 at 10:17 am

      @Kayla Rudbek: It’s such a weird objection. Some men just want women to suffer in pursuit of male approval.

      The weird thing is that the GLP-1s seem to help all kinds of addictive behavior, drugs, gambling, etc. Anyone who cares about men’s health would be thrilled to hear this.

      Reply
    45. 45.

      Jeffro

      May 18, 2025 at 10:17 am

      @Dorothy A. Winsor: exactly

      And since they would likely try to rocket any replacement through right up until noon on Jan 20, 2029…we have to hope he decides to stick it out and keels over during the first term of President Next Democrat

      Reply
    46. 46.

      JML

      May 18, 2025 at 10:18 am

      I’m going to be interested to see if the Current Occupant continues to take shots at Taylor Swift and Bruce Springsteen, two people that are substantially more popular than he is. (Go ahead, take a swing at Beyonce too, ya racist sh!tbag!)

      I’m sure Bruce won’t back off: his politics are very clear, and I suspect at his age he has zero fucks left to give. Taylor will be more interesting: she’s given plenty of clues as to where her politics land on social issues, but she’s tended to be more cautious, less out-spoken, and far less partisan. (and there’s a lot of reasons for that I think; as a woman (especially a younger one) she would definitely receive far more criticism and you can expect for it to be incredibly unfair) But she’s in little danger of losing her core audience to attacks from the MAGA crew, so here’s hoping she feels empowered to use her position and standing for good.

      Reply
    47. 47.

      suzanne

      May 18, 2025 at 10:21 am

      @Dorothy A. Winsor: Yeah, word. Maybe he can just be really miserable until we elect President Ocasio-Cortez to appoint his replacement.

      Reply
    48. 48.

      lowtechcyclist

      May 18, 2025 at 10:24 am

      @karen gail: ​
       

      The writer commented that US “founding fathers” were actually oligarchy; they were the rich and powerful who bought themselves a new government at the expense of poor, slaves and servants.

      How was the new government of the United States at the expense of those classes? Independence may not have improved their lot, but it didn’t worsen it afaict.

      Reply
    49. 49.

      Professor Bigfoot

      May 18, 2025 at 10:27 am

      @Matt McIrvin: That would be some genuine “mad king” stuff, wouldn’t it?

      That’s why I could see it happening.

      Reply
    50. 50.

      Professor Bigfoot

      May 18, 2025 at 10:29 am

      @Baud: the kind of “seismic change” that involves blood and explosions and suffering.

      Reply
    51. 51.

      JML

      May 18, 2025 at 10:29 am

      @Shalimar: one of my law professors clerked for Thomas, and was constantly trying to sell us on the idea that Thomas was beloved by the other members of the court, and was the most popular. None of us were shocked when that clown politicked his way onto the bench by swearing allegiance to the Federalist Society.

      But I really have trouble believing that someone who is so obviously consumed by envy and resentment would actually be popular among his colleagues. Thomas very obviously thinks he’s supposed to be rich, powerful, and a person to be treated with deference in all things. Any and all criticism of his work, his life, his decisions & choices is seen as monumentally unfair. I’ve met more than a few people like this in life; they’ve never been happy people, and frequently are the least popular person in the office because they’re always unhappy about something. Really doubt that just because RBG might have invited him to the opera or something that he’s actually all that well-liked.

      Can’t wait for him to be gone; he’s been a rotten Justice in pretty much every way, but I’m actually hoping that his personal resentments keep him from being able to resign for another 4 years. Because we know the Current Occupant will appoint someone equally awful, a 40-year old Nazi with no soul and excellent health…

      Reply
    52. 52.

      suzanne

      May 18, 2025 at 10:30 am

      Now I’m having fun trying to imagine the future Dem president who would most trigger the right.

      Imagining the right seething with impotent rage is a real mood-lifter.

      Reply
    53. 53.

      AWOL

      May 18, 2025 at 10:31 am

      @Shalimar: What the fucking fuck????

      Reply
    54. 54.

      narya

      May 18, 2025 at 10:33 am

      @suzanne: Jasmine Crockett? Ayanna Pressley? ;-)

      Reply
    55. 55.

      Dorothy A. Winsor

      May 18, 2025 at 10:34 am

      @JML: It’ll be interesting to see if immigration hassles Bruce when he returns to the US

      Reply
    56. 56.

      sab

      May 18, 2025 at 10:35 am

      Yesterday’s meetup was fun but drive was exhausting ( we are old) . 2 hours each way.

      Ohio mom was not what I was expecting. I was expecting a normal mom, but she is strikingly pretty.

      Goku is a real person. I saw him. Bigfoot Professor lived up to my expectations, plus he has a lovely beautiful wife. Suzanne came!

      The venue was really loud so we couldn’t talk much. Not loud music. Just bad acoustics.

      That part of Columbus is really pretty and quaint. Looked like Georgetown in DC or oldtown Alexandria in DC.  Apparently ( per Omnes)  very much gentrified

      ETA Ohio Farmer came, and wore a normal red hat. He was afraid we would think MAGA but we can read logos so all okay.

      Reply
    57. 57.

      suzanne

      May 18, 2025 at 10:35 am

      @narya: President Rachel Levine, President Ibram X. Kendi……

      Reply
    58. 58.

      narya

      May 18, 2025 at 10:39 am

      @suzanne: Maybe Crockett could be Speaker of the House. And Corey Booker as Majority Leader in the Senate. I would love to see that–Black folks as president, VP, Speaker, and Majority Leader. Oh, and, KBJ as Chief Justice, while we’re dreaming.

      Reply
    59. 59.

      suzanne

      May 18, 2025 at 10:40 am

      @sab: It was great to meet you and all the other jackals in attendance, and i’m sorry i was late! A great group, as expected. Agreed on the volume, but hey, we just all have so much to say. :)

      Reply
    60. 60.

      Professor Bigfoot

      May 18, 2025 at 10:44 am

      @lowtechcyclist:

      1772: The Chief Justice of the King’s Bench declares that there can be no slaves in England (Stewart v Somerset)

      1174: Doctor Johnson writes, “How is it we hear the loudest yelps of liberty from the drivers of negroes(slaves)?”

      1776:English colonists, wealthy in slaves, declare independence from England.

      I might add that the British offered freedom for any Enslaved man who fought for the Crown (some of whose descendants live in Canada to this day).

      Reply
    61. 61.

      suzanne

      May 18, 2025 at 10:47 am

      @narya: I have been trying to take Omnes’ advice about being patient (not a skill that comes naturally) and watching how opposition naturally arises in these upcoming months. One thing that does give me hope is that we’ve got some great Dems laying groundwork right now. I always have my candidate/policy preferences but I can usually be satisfied with the consensus candidate.

      Reply
    62. 62.

      Professor Bigfoot

      May 18, 2025 at 10:48 am

      @sab: It was great to see all of you; and I have a really great looking “Porsche Motorsport” hat that I’ve never worn, so Ohio Farmer, I get it! :^D

      Reply
    63. 63.

      Lyrebird

      May 18, 2025 at 10:51 am

      @Betty Cracker:Someone on Bluesky said Springsteen and Taylor Swift should give a free concert in DC on the other side of town on the same day Trump makes the military roll tanks, missiles, troops, etc., past a reviewing stand to celebrate his own birthday.

      YES!!! and as @narya: already said, “make it a voter registration drive”!!!!!

      To Narya, the bigger DC outdoor concert venues are actually in VA and MD anyhow from Wolf Trap to whatever else.

      MARYLAND though.  Gotta be Maryland, bring in Bad Bunny as well, and register more of Mr. Abrego Garcia’s neighbors and supporters of his rights to due process

       

      ETA: ..and livestream to places in Florida.  While I am dreaming!

      Reply
    64. 64.

      Professor Bigfoot

      May 18, 2025 at 10:52 am

      @suzanne: I’m feeling an optimism that I’ve not felt in a while.

      Kinda like Uncle Sam is waking up from a long nap, yawning, stretching, rubbing his eyes, looking around and thinking “what in the fuck-? Aw, HELL naw.”

      (Uncle Sam Jackson, that is)

      Reply
    65. 65.

      sab

      May 18, 2025 at 10:52 am

      @Professor Bigfoot: The things we never learned in History class. I knew England outlawed slavery. I hadn’t realized it was before our Revolution and was possibly a precipatating factor.

      Reply
    66. 66.

      Another Scott

      May 18, 2025 at 10:53 am

      @JML: Humans are really, really weird.

      I know someone who clerked for Alito, before Dobbs.

      Amazing, multi-talented, humble, spread the credit, hard working, universally beloved.

      But a Federalist Society member.

      We haven’t talked with them much at all since they left the clerkship.

      We never talked politics before then, but if one looked and listened carefully, the signs were there…

      Horrible politics can reside in otherwise personally appealing people.  They’re not mutually exclusive.  So, it’s not impossible that the stories you heard are true.

      FWIW.

      [eta: The Point!]  It doesn’t matter how personally appealing a person is when they have a job like being on the SCOTUS or having another office under the United States.  What matters is the work product.  Thomas’s (and Alito’s) work product is crap and punches down and if it were successful would destroy the US Government.  That’s why we should oppose them, not for their success (or lack thereof) in interpersonal relationships.

      Best wishes,
      Scott.

      Reply
    67. 67.

      zhena gogolia

      May 18, 2025 at 10:57 am

      @Another Scott:
      Amazing, multi-talented, humble, spread the credit, hard working, universally beloved.
      Is that supposed to refer to Alito? Help, I can’t get out of the blockquote! “Beloved” is the last word of my quote

      Reply
    68. 68.

      Melancholy Jaques

      May 18, 2025 at 10:57 am

      @Baud:

      The Founders were oligarchs, but they did actually fight and put their lives in the line.  Strikes me as different than the Gilded Age and the current situation.

      They weren’t oligarchs. They were well off, some were rich, but none had the mega-wealth we associate with the heirs to oil empires & tech bros who rule our country today.

      Reply
    69. 69.

      They Call Me Noni

      May 18, 2025 at 10:58 am

      @suzanne: I nominate Ru Paul!!!!

      Reply
    70. 70.

      suzanne

      May 18, 2025 at 10:58 am

      @Professor Bigfoot: I don’t know if I’m in a good mood for no reason, or if I’s responding rationally to positive developments!

      One thing that gave me hope yesterday… I was listening to a podcast in which they guests were discussing “competitive authoritarianism”, which was not a concept I was familiar with, and they said is probably the best way to characterize where we are right now. Anyway, they noted….. we have backslid, for sure…. but we can also rebuild and recover. All is not lost.

      Maybe I just need some copium, but I’m going to roll with it.

      Reply
    71. 71.

      Anyway

      May 18, 2025 at 11:00 am

      @JML: Because we know the Current Occupant will appoint someone equally awful, a 40-year old Nazi with no soul and excellent health…

      The thought of Kazmarzyck (sp. sorry Zhena)  or Florida Aileen as SC appointees keeps me up at night…

      ETA — only reason to wish that Alito and Thomas last through Cheetolini’s term …

      Reply
    72. 72.

      Betty Cracker

      May 18, 2025 at 11:01 am

      @Another Scott:

      Horrible politics can reside in otherwise personally appealing people. They’re not mutually exclusive.

      I know for a fact this is true. But it’s still hard to wrap my mind around sometimes. People are complicated.

      Reply
    73. 73.

      narya

      May 18, 2025 at 11:01 am

      @Lyrebird: Livestream it nationally, for a small fee or suggested donation, with donations going to appropriate entities

      ETA: I’m thinking something Live Aid-ish . . .

      Reply
    74. 74.

      narya

      May 18, 2025 at 11:05 am

      @They Call Me Noni: Ru Paul is responsible for one of the best and most profound things I’ve ever heard: “We’re all born naked; the rest is drag.” I mean, sure, Goffman had his moments, but Ru Paul just sums it UP.

      Reply
    75. 75.

      Another Scott

      May 18, 2025 at 11:06 am

      @zhena gogolia: Sorry!  No!!  The clerk.

      Thanks.

      [eta:]  To get out of the blockquote, just keep hitting Enter on the keyboard until you are out.

      Best wishes,
      Scott.

      Reply
    76. 76.

      They Call Me Noni

      May 18, 2025 at 11:09 am

      @narya: The ACLU could always use more support.  Also Marc Elias if it’s allowed.

      Reply
    77. 77.

      They Call Me Noni

      May 18, 2025 at 11:10 am

      @narya: Whip smart and spreads love, inclusion and empathy.  I’ve been a big fan for years.

      Reply
    78. 78.

      narya

      May 18, 2025 at 11:10 am

      @They Call Me Noni: LOL–those are EXACTLY the two organizations I was thinking about, but decided to keep it more general, if folks have other preferences.

      Reply
    79. 79.

      New Deal democrat

      May 18, 2025 at 11:12 am

      @JML:

      this is seriously revisionist history, though. Asking Thurgood Marshall, the first black Justice in the US history to retire after less than 12 years on the bench was never seriously contemplated. He certainly never had any desire to leave the bench

      I am going to push back on this. Because the reason given why Marshall, who was 70 years old in 1978 when a majority of people born in 1908 were already dead, wasn’t that he was in good health or never wanted to leave the bench, but because he believed his replacement would not be liberal enough.

      But again, my main point is that the rights and obligations of 300+ million people should not be subject to the viscissitudes of the health and personal preferences of 5 of 9 people. It is a glaring Constitutional weakness that never existed anywhere in the world before 1789, and has not been followed anywhere else since.

      Reply
    80. 80.

      comrade scotts agenda of rage

      May 18, 2025 at 11:17 am

      @sab:

      Just bad acoustics.

      And probably loads of other loud people.  It’s a “feature” going out anymore.  And places wonder why people don’t go out aside from cost.  IT’S TOO FUCKING LOUD!!!!!!!!!

      That was the primary reason (and parking) why I decided to host our CO meetup at home.  If we do another one (Sure Lurkalot has prelimiarily offered to host), it’ll be the same way.

      Glad to see other meetups happening around this great (snort!) country of ours!

      Reply
    81. 81.

      Glory b

      May 18, 2025 at 11:18 am

      @narya: Pressley isn’t a lawyer.

      As I recall, I don’t think she even has a bachelor’s degree, I think she left college to work, but not sure how long she attended.

      Interesting topic, now that I think of it, how many elected officials didn’t finish college?

      Reply
    82. 82.

      Jackie

      May 18, 2025 at 11:20 am

      @Dorothy A. Winsor:

      Yes, but he [Thomas] shouldn’t die now. Trump would appoint his replacement

      Exactly. Aileen Cannon (FL) or Matthew Kacsmaryk (TX) springs to mind. They are both vile federal judges appointed by FFOTUS, and VERY loyal to him.

      Reply
    83. 83.

      Sure Lurkalot

      May 18, 2025 at 11:22 am

      The Bruce takes aim at the correct target while Chris Murphy goes on the Sunday Shows to sell Jake Tapper’s book:

      Aaron Rupar

      @atrupar.com‬

      Chris Murphy: “In retrospect, you can’t defend what the Democratic Party did because we are stuck with a madman, a corrupt president in the Oval Office, and we should’ve given ourselves a better chance to win.”

      Democrats elected Trump…part infinity.

      Reply
    84. 84.

      Jacel

      May 18, 2025 at 11:22 am

      @New Deal democrat: You mentioned David Souter. I’m surprised to see he passed away at 85 just earlier this month (May 8, 2025) after retiring in 2009 and being replaced by Sotomayor.

      Reply
    85. 85.

      lowtechcyclist

      May 18, 2025 at 11:23 am

      @Professor Bigfoot: ​
       

      1772: The Chief Justice of the King’s Bench declares that there can be no slaves in England (Stewart v Somerset)

      And did this ruling apply to the Colonies?

      Reply
    86. 86.

      comrade scotts agenda of rage

      May 18, 2025 at 11:25 am

      @Sure Lurkalot:

      What we should learn from this:

      Send Springsteen to do the Sunday morning talk show rounds.

      JFC, there must be something in the Senate water that causes this.

      Reply
    87. 87.

      Jackie

      May 18, 2025 at 11:27 am

      @Dorothy A. Winsor:

      It’ll be interesting to see if immigration hassles Bruce when he returns to the US

      FFOTUS already hinted at that possibility. So, I presume Customs agents will find something amiss in his passport/visa…

      Reply
    88. 88.

      Glory b

      May 18, 2025 at 11:28 am

      @New Deal democrat: Thats my recollection too, that Marshall wasn’t in the best of health and was being urged to step down so Carter could “save” the seat for a Democrat.”

      Then his bad health caught up with him and he was forced to retire.

      I also read that he wept after announcing he was leaving the bench, although I don’t think he realized just how bad his replacement would be.

      I also remember that RBG didn’t care for Obama & rebuffed many legal scholars’ entreaties that she resign & let him appoint her replacement.

      And she was in MUCH worse health, pancreatic cancer is almost always a death sentence.

      She took pains to hide the true condition of her health too.

      Several liberal justices didn’t have enough foresight to retire when they should have. Both Marshall & RBG were replaced by justices only too willing to erase their accomplishments.

      Reply
    89. 89.

      moonbat

      May 18, 2025 at 11:30 am

      @lowtechcyclist: ​
       Maybe no slaves IN England, but that didn’t stop the British from lowkey continuing to trade in slaves to OTHER places after that. Slavery wasn’t outlawed in the British empire til 1833. And some of their former colonies would probably like to dispute that date as well.

      Reply
    90. 90.

      surfk9

      May 18, 2025 at 11:31 am

      @lowtechcyclist: I think Britain outlawed slavery in 1830’s

      Reply
    91. 91.

      Librettist

      May 18, 2025 at 11:33 am

      @Sure Lurkalot:

      The Big Money has a sad because rank and file Democrats are refusing to be their pet moppets.

      Reply
    92. 92.

      Citizen Alan

      May 18, 2025 at 11:35 am

      @Shalimar: i don’t have the least bit of pity for clarence thomas and hope his eventual death is unpleasant. Aside from being a cruel, amoral mercenary who is all but openly accepting bags of cash in exchange for dismantling American democracy, he is also one of the biggest hypocrites in history. A black man who willingly allowed racists to use his blackness to help him get on the Supreme Court so that he could then spend the rest of his life working to dismantle affirmative action and civil rights for blacks and other minorities. If the bastard lives long enough, I expect clarence thomas to be the one to write the opinion that overturns brown versus board of education.

      Reply
    93. 93.

      Glory b

      May 18, 2025 at 11:36 am

      @Jackie: A few Republicans suggested that he retire so Trump could get a 4th appointment(!), but he refuses to do so.

      In his heart, he knows his rich, dear “friends” (as he described Harlan Crowe) would drop him & Jenny immediately if he wasn’t on the court.

      In an interview, dear friend Harland was asked if he’d be friends with Thomas if he wasn’t a Justice.

      Harlan answered “Good question. I don’t really know.”

      Points for honesty, I guess. Also not afraid of letting Thomas know exactly where he stands.

      Reply
    94. 94.

      lowtechcyclist

      May 18, 2025 at 11:39 am

      @moonbat: ​
       

      Maybe no slaves IN England, but that didn’t stop the British from lowkey continuing to trade in slaves to OTHER places after that. Slavery wasn’t outlawed in the British empire til 1833. And some of their former colonies would probably like to dispute that date as well.

      It was a rhetorical question, but thanks for bringing the receipts.

      Also, the invention of the cotton gin made American slavery much more profitable for the slave owners and traders; outlawing it Empire-wide would have run into way more moneyed opposition if the Colonies had remained in the Empire, and as a result would have probably happened decades later than it did.

      Reply
    95. 95.

      Glory b

      May 18, 2025 at 11:40 am

      @Citizen Alan:  Absolutely.  Thomas has already opined that he disagrees with Brown and thinks it should be revisited.

      We should also remember (although, to be fair, the media didn’t point it out) the large number of Trump judicial appointees who refused to characterize Brown as the law of the land.

      Their excuse? They didn’t want to talk about matters that might come before them in court.

      It’s almost like they already knew…

      Reply
    96. 96.

      rikyrah

      May 18, 2025 at 11:41 am

      Good Morning Everyone 😊 😊 😊

      Reply
    97. 97.

      zhena gogolia

      May 18, 2025 at 11:41 am

      @Sure Lurkalot: As I said on here before, I’ve now unsubscribed from “Friends of Chris Murphy.” I’ll never give him another dime.

      Blumenthal and De Lauro will get my contributions.

      Reply
    98. 98.

      rikyrah

      May 18, 2025 at 11:44 am

      @Glory b:

      Would forget his phone number immediately

      Reply
    99. 99.

      JML

      May 18, 2025 at 11:45 am

      @Glory b: Thats my recollection too, that Marshall wasn’t in the best of health and was being urged to step down so Carter could “save” the seat for a Democrat.”

      But this is where the illogic really comes in: Carter is supposed to “save” the seat for Democrat in his first term? If he wins re-election (remember, the big Reagan wipeout was in 1984, not 1980), then the seat is still there and you’re not asking the first black Justice to step off after only 10 years on the bench. (and clearly his health wasn’t THAT bad, as he lasted another 12 years on the bench before he simply couldn’t go any longer) If we’d been more competent in 1988, we never get stuck with the damn Bush Dynasty either.

      It’s a tough sell to tell a great Justice to step aside for someone else, especially when they have little to no say in their successor. And some of this also had to do with dysfunction in the Democratic Party, where the Democratic Congress wanted to treat Carter as the junior partner and Carter had no idea how to work with a legislature with actual needs…

      Reply
    100. 100.

      New Deal democrat

      May 18, 2025 at 11:46 am

      @Glory b: Just to follow up on my main point, the Supreme Court which probably has the most similar structure to the US’s is Australia. Here is what their Constitution says:

      The Justices of the High Court and of the other courts created by the Parliament–

        (i.)   Shall be appointed by the Governor-General in Council:

        (ii.)   Shall not be removed except by the Governor-General in Council, on an address from both Houses of the Parliament in the same session, praying for such removal on the ground of proved misbehaviour or incapacity:

        (iii.)   Shall receive such remuneration as the Parliament may fix; but the remuneration shall not be diminished during their continuance in office.

          The appointment of a Justice of the High Court shall be for a term expiring upon his attaining the age of seventy years, and a person shall not be appointed as a Justice of the High Court if he has attained that age.

          The appointment of a Justice of a court created by the Parliament shall be for a term expiring upon his attaining the age that is, at the time of his appointment, the maximum age for Justices of that court and a person shall not be appointed as a Justice of such a court if he has attained the age that is for the time being the maximum age for Justices of that court.
       

      Note the three big differences:

      1. A maximum age of 70, with lower courts being allowed to have a lower maximum

      2. Removal for “misbehavior,” not the assumed “high crimes and misdemeanors” which actually is not in the US’s text as to Judges.

      3. Removal by a simple majority of both Legislative Houses – no supermajority required. Note: in the UK and the Commonwealth, an “Address to the Sovereign” has the same meaning as our “impeachment.”

      Reply
    101. 101.

      rikyrah

      May 18, 2025 at 11:48 am

      @sab:

      Happy Birthday 🎈 🎂 🎉🥳💐

      Reply
    102. 102.

      moonbat

      May 18, 2025 at 11:50 am

      @lowtechcyclist: True, and not for nothing, that was the reason the Brits were dancing around the idea of supporting the Confederacy during the Civil War. They wouldn’t have minded if the South had managed to secede from the Union. Just keep the HOW all that cheap cotton gets to our mills on the downlow. Such unpleasantness.

      Reply
    103. 103.

      trollhattan

      May 18, 2025 at 11:51 am

      @Shalimar:

      True. That said, my sympathy for Clarence is expressed as follows.

      .

      Everything else I hand over to Anita Hill.

      Reply
    104. 104.

      Melancholy Jaques

      May 18, 2025 at 11:52 am

      @JML:

      remember, the big Reagan wipeout was in 1984, not 1980

      1980 was a wipeout & not just the presidential election. Republicans won the senate & many state houses.

      Reply
    105. 105.

      rikyrah

      May 18, 2025 at 11:53 am

      @New Deal democrat:

      Marshall should have died on the bench.

      Period.

      Never should have retired

      .

      Reply
    106. 106.

      Jackie

      May 18, 2025 at 11:53 am

      @Glory b:

      Thomas has already opined that he disagrees with Brown and thinks it should be revisited.

      He also suggested revoking The Love Act (interracial marriages) and same-sex marriages. He addressed all of these when ROE was overturned.

      edited for verbiage

      Reply
    107. 107.

      Mike E

      May 18, 2025 at 11:55 am

      @Jackie: “Addressed”, heh…more like fist pumped it.

      Reply
    108. 108.

      Sure Lurkalot

      May 18, 2025 at 11:56 am

      @comrade scotts agenda of rage:

      Send Springsteen to do the Sunday morning talk show rounds.

      No kidding. I haven’t watched the Sunday Shows for years and read Rupar instead for “highlights”…and usually decry the fact that they’re crammed full of poor interviewers pitching softballs to lying Republicans…but if elected Democrats can’t or won’t focus on the wholesale dismantling of America instead of chasing the latest Democrats in Disarray squirrel coughed up by the complicit media, I got fucking absolutely nothing.

      Reply
    109. 109.

      moonbat

      May 18, 2025 at 11:58 am

      @New Deal democrat: ​
        3. on your list is that one that gives me the shivers. Don’t you think in our current environment a bunch of bogus charges couldn’t be trumped up against Kagan, Sotomoyor, and Brown Jackson so that Trump could appoint even more compliant toadies to do his bidding?
      IOW, there is no perfect system that is mendacious idiot proof. And we can spin counterfactual histories all day long, but the long and the short of it is that the American people need to start voting in their own interests. Unfortunately I don’t think the majority is going to start doing that until they’ve been given a long hard screw by the current administration.

      Reply
    110. 110.

      trollhattan

      May 18, 2025 at 11:58 am

      Donny to Vlad: “Stop the bloodshed.”

      Vlad to Trump:

      Ukraine says Russia has launched its biggest drone attack since the full-scale invasion began, targeting several regions including Kyiv, where one woman died.

      Russia had launched 273 drones by 08:00 Sunday (05:00 GMT) targeting the central Kyiv region and Dnipropetrovsk and Donetsk regions in the east, Ukraine’s air force said.

      The barrage has come just a day before a scheduled call between Donald Trump and Russian President Vladimir Putin. The US President has been urging a ceasefire.

      Russian and Ukraine had their first face-to-face talks in more than three years on Friday in Turkey, but it yielded little besides a new prisoner swap deal.

      Germany’s Chancellor Friedrich Merz said on Sunday that he and leaders of Britain, France, and Poland would have a virtual meeting with Trump before his conversation with Putin on Monday morning.

      On Sunday, Ukraine’s air force reported that Russia had launched a record number of drones, including Shahed attack drones, of which 88 were intercepted and another 128 went astray “without negative consequences”.

      The strikes killed one person on the outskirts of Kyiv, and injured at least three others, officials reported.

      The previous largest drone attack from Russia had taken place on the third anniversary of the full-scale invasion on 23 February, when Moscow launched 267 drones.

      I think that clears things up.

      Reply
    111. 111.

      dnfree

      May 18, 2025 at 11:59 am

      @m.j.: Wow!  You win!

      Reply
    112. 112.

      Sister Golden Bear

      May 18, 2025 at 12:01 pm

      Weird twist in the Palm Springs IVF clinic bombing, the 25-year-old dude who blew himself up was a self-proclaimed “pro-mortalist, saying people didn’t give consent to exist,” who was pissed off that he himself existed, and in particular hated IVF because he was “anti-life.”

      Reply
    113. 113.

      cmorenc

      May 18, 2025 at 12:02 pm

      @JML:

      Because we know the Current Occupant will appoint someone equally awful, a 40-year old Nazi with no soul and excellent health…

      It would be worse than just that…add “complete partisan hack” to the qualifications the Current Occupant deems most important in a SCOTUS nominee…and the most likely result is…Aileen Cannon.

      Reply
    114. 114.

      Baud

      May 18, 2025 at 12:03 pm

      @sab:

      Goku is a real person.

       

      That makes one of us.

      Reply
    115. 115.

      trollhattan

      May 18, 2025 at 12:04 pm

      @Melancholy Jaques:

      No kidding. Carter, with the incumbent’s “advantage” won six states and D.C.

      Six.

      Reply
    116. 116.

      Professor Bigfoot

      May 18, 2025 at 12:09 pm

      @Melancholy Jaques: Actually, no.

      Their slaves were their “capital equipment,” their plantations were their corporations; and both Stewart v Somerset and the Haitian revolution loomed large in their minds.

      We are so quick to forget the prominent role of the Enslavement in American history.

      Reply
    117. 117.

      dnfree

      May 18, 2025 at 12:10 pm

      @zhena gogolia: The fear of not being able to get out of a blockquote is why I never start one.

      Reply
    118. 118.

      kalakal

      May 18, 2025 at 12:10 pm

      @lowtechcyclist: The British banned the slave trade in 1807 and enforced it with considerable naval force world wide, quite a few international incidents ensued.

      @moonbat:

      that was the reason the Brits were dancing around the idea of supporting the Confederacy during the Civil War. They wouldn’t have minded if the South had managed to secede from the Union. Just keep the HOW all that cheap cotton gets to our mills on the downlow.

      The British were divided on the issue – the mill owners like cheap cotton and  some ‘geostrategists’ liked the idea of a divided ( weakened) US rather than a continental power. They certainly didn’t keep it on the downlow, a major factor in Britain’s neutrality was massive industrial unrest at the mills, the workers wanted no part in going to war to support slavery

      In the end the neutralist majority prevailed

      Reply
    119. 119.

      Jeffro

      May 18, 2025 at 12:13 pm

      @Sure Lurkalot: they sure are weeding themselves right the heck out of 2028 contention, aren’t they?

      Newsom, Whitmer, now Murphy.

      bye Felicia Chris!

      Reply
    120. 120.

      Baud

      May 18, 2025 at 12:15 pm

      @Sure Lurkalot:

      He won’t fight for us. Good to know.

       

      @Jeffro:

      Yep. I’m glad. Too many people on the stage in 2020.

      Reply
    121. 121.

      Jeffro

      May 18, 2025 at 12:17 pm

      @Lyrebird: if there is a Springsteen and/or Swift concert that day, we’ll livestream it here during our ‘No Kings’ party

      (I’ve already ordered the Canadian, Ukrainian, and Mexican flags =)

      Reply
    122. 122.

      Baud

      May 18, 2025 at 12:17 pm

      @Sister Golden Bear:

      There are ways to live one’s values without putting other people at risk.

      Reply
    123. 123.

      Professor Bigfoot

      May 18, 2025 at 12:19 pm

      @They Call Me Noni: I’m a recent convert— Mrs. B started watching “Ru Paul’s Drag Race” and, well, it’s just so fun. Ru is just… well, “she a bad bitch,” as one of her queens might say. :^D

      Reply
    124. 124.

      Jackie

      May 18, 2025 at 12:23 pm

      Bruce hits back:

      President Trump warned Bruce Springsteen to ‘keep his mouth shut’ until he gets back to the U.S. The rock icon is showing no signs of backing down, delivering a fiery performance from a stage in Manchester Saturday that reflected the stark political divide in America,” the Wall Street Journal reports.

      Springsteen echoed earlier criticism of the Trump administration Saturday, saying a ‘rogue’ government was rolling over U.S. lawmakers and institutions designed to keep authoritarianism in check.

      Said Springsteen: “In my home America, the America I’ve written about that has been a beacon of hope and liberty for 250 years, it is currently in the hands of a corrupt, incompetent and treasonous administration,” he said Saturday.

      “Tonight, we ask all who believe in democracy and the best of our American spirit to rise with us, raise your voices and stand with us against authoritarianism and let freedom ring. This is ‘Land of Hope and Dreams.’”

      GOOOO BRUCE!!!

      Reply
    125. 125.

      New Deal democrat

      May 18, 2025 at 12:24 pm

      @moonbat: I appreciate your point, but the 2/3’s Senate supermajority requirement in the US has made impeachment a dead letter. A lower requirement like 55 or 60 votes in the Senate might be more workable.

      Reply
    126. 126.

      moonbat

      May 18, 2025 at 12:26 pm

      @kalakal: They may have abolished moving slaves across the Atlantic, but they did not abolish having slaves until 1833. Until then they still kept plenty of them in the West Indies and I’m sure the ambiguity of the British position on slavery would have been lost on those still being held captive. The Brits ultimately didn’t bet on the South because it was a bad bet. They didn’t have the industry/infrastructure to win a prolonged war.

      Reply
    127. 127.

      New Deal democrat

      May 18, 2025 at 12:36 pm

      @moonbat:

      The Brits ultimately didn’t bet on the South because it was a bad bet. They didn’t have the industry/infrastructure to win a prolonged war.

      But kalakai is also correct, in that public sentiment in the UK was very much against slavery. For example, Frederick Douglass was very well received there.

      Also, fwiw, Lincoln was no strategic slouch, suggesting in writing that if the UK became a belligerent, then Canada (which was not independent at the time) was also on the menu.

      Reply
    128. 128.

      Professor Bigfoot

      May 18, 2025 at 12:38 pm

      @lowtechcyclist: No, it did not! As someone else (forgive me!) mentioned above, there were PLENTY of people still Enslaved in the “British West Indies” for decades after Stewart v Somerset.

      But (as others have noted) humans are weird— and the revolutionaries, again, wealthy in Enslaved men, women and children, may simply have panicked and declared their independence in (mistaken) anticipation of that ruling being extended to English colonies.

      Imagine an Elon Musk, making a stupid, impetuous move out of panic… and somehow, it works out.

      (Needless to say, I don’t hold a lot of credence for the Founders talking about “freedom” and “liberty” when they were wealthy in slaves— this is one place where an economic argument makes sense to me)

      Reply
    129. 129.

      They Call Me Noni

      May 18, 2025 at 12:39 pm

      @narya: There are too many to mention, but these two are really doing a lot of heaving lifting right now since our main defense is the courts.

      Reply
    130. 130.

      Professor Bigfoot

      May 18, 2025 at 12:39 pm

      @lowtechcyclist: Ya gots ta follow the Benjamins— even long before they were first printed!

      Reply
    131. 131.

      They Call Me Noni

      May 18, 2025 at 12:43 pm

      @Professor Bigfoot: She sure is!

      Reply
    132. 132.

      Gretchen

      May 18, 2025 at 12:44 pm

      « “Has anyone noticed that, since I said ‘I HATE TAYLOR SWIFT,’ she’s no longer ‘HOT?'” Trump wrote Friday on Truth Social«

      This is literally insane. I’m losing my mind that people are treating this as just another day, perfectly normal, while they seriously debate whether Biden recognized everyone he met two years ago. They’re actually talking about this as if Biden losing a step a couple of years ago is more important that this CRAZINESS!  Imagine if Biden or Obama were tweeting about whether a pop star is hot! Why isn’t this an outrage? Or even a blip in the news cycle? I’m trying to imagine the media if Biden thought his feelings about a pop star controls her perceived hotness to the public.

      Instead we’ve got Chris Murphy admitting that the Democrats should have done better in keeping batshit-crazy out of the White House, mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.

      Reply
    133. 133.

      Baud

      May 18, 2025 at 12:46 pm

      @Gretchen:

      They do it because they want us unnerved by it.

      Lots of people want to own the libs.

      Reply
    134. 134.

      They Call Me Noni

      May 18, 2025 at 12:47 pm

      @comrade scotts agenda of rage: If anyone ever wants to do one in my area (southern Indiana) our home could host a small crowd.  Plenty of space inside and out.

      Reply
    135. 135.

      Another Scott

      May 18, 2025 at 12:47 pm

      There are primary elections coming up in Virginia (June 17) and New Jersey (June 10).

      I don’t know anything about the ‘Jersey races.

      Spanberger has no competition for VA Governor on the Democratic side. Things seem wide open in the Lt. Governor race with 3 main contenders – Hashmi, Rouse, and Stoney. Something like 45% of primary voters are undecided. Does anyone have any favorites?

      For Virginia AG, Jones has a big fundraising lead over Taylor but who knows how much that matters (the vast majority of voters vote the party as long as the person on top is someone they can support). I know little about either one at the moment.

      I’d like to think that we can win with any of the major candidates, and maybe we can. But the stakes are so very high that we need to pick someone that everyone can rally behind without any reluctance at all.

      I’ve got my absentee ballot; I’ll probably turn it in near the last day as usual.

      Thanks.

      Best wishes,
      Scott.

      Reply
    136. 136.

      hells littlest angel

      May 18, 2025 at 12:51 pm

      I don’t envy Springsteen’s trip through Customs and Immigration when he returns. You know the fascists are just itching for someone high-profile to harass.

      Reply
    137. 137.

      Jay

      May 18, 2025 at 12:51 pm

      Carl T. Bergstrom
      ‪@carlbergstrom.com‬

      Follow
      Under 65 years old? No Novovax COVID vaccine for you this year.

      As expected, the Republicans have enabled RFK Jr. and his coterie of antivax grifters to take away your right to make your own medical decisions in consultation with your doctor.

      Gift Link: http://www.nytimes.com/2025/05/17/h...

      https://bsky.app/profile/carlbergstrom.com/post/3lpg6vor7c22z

      Reply
    138. 138.

      Baud

      May 18, 2025 at 12:53 pm

      Pope Leo XIV Grants First Foreign Leader Audience to President Zelenskyy

      Reply
    139. 139.

      StringOnAStick

      May 18, 2025 at 12:54 pm

      @sab: It looks like 1776 was the first Alamo, and just like the second one, it has been cloaked in gauzy layers of patriotic justification and righteousness to obscure the underlying, less than moral, reasons for the rebellion.  Figures.

      Reply
    140. 140.

      Another Scott

      May 18, 2025 at 12:57 pm

      @Professor Bigfoot: Re your #1, I found this discussion on StackExchange to be interesting.

      History, being a human institution studying previous human actions, is a messy thing because humans are messy beings.

      Thanks.

      Best wishes,
      Scott.

      Reply
    141. 141.

      trollhattan

      May 18, 2025 at 12:57 pm

      @hells littlest angel: ​
      Born to Frisk.

      Reply
    142. 142.

      trollhattan

      May 18, 2025 at 12:59 pm

      @Jay: Fuckers. Now they’re actively working to kill people, not just passively.

      Winning.

      Reply
    143. 143.

      Bupalos

      May 18, 2025 at 12:59 pm

      the current concerted effort to divide Democrats

      @Baud:@Baud: I feel like that framing is a little conspiratorial and itself may pose a greater danger than the unnamed malevolent forces it contemplates being at work. The only way out of fascism is a broader coalition that includes people that we don’t agree with on everything. Leave room for the idea that ideas we don’t agree with aren’t provocations or plots, but sincere efforts and opinions that show some deeper overlap with our goals.

      Reply
    144. 144.

      Jackie

      May 18, 2025 at 12:59 pm

      @Jay: Everything is so up in the air re vaccines this year… I got my latest Covid booster in March; who knows what’s going to happen come Fall regarding the availability of Covid vaccines and flu vaccines? Uncertain times ahead, for sure.

      Reply
    145. 145.

      Baud

      May 18, 2025 at 1:01 pm

      @Bupalos:

      I hope you will follow your own advice and respect my point of view.

      Reply
    146. 146.

      trollhattan

      May 18, 2025 at 1:02 pm

      @Baud:

      As always, I respect your ah-tora-tah.

      Reply
    147. 147.

      sab

      May 18, 2025 at 1:06 pm

      So yesterday was the 71st anniversary of Brown v Board of Ed. I was 3 months old in NC at the time. My mother told me that the Catholic bishop of NC told everyone “That’s the Law of the Land” so in September Catholic schools in NC were integrated. Took a whole generation across America for the public schools to catch up.

      Reply
    148. 148.

      RevRick

      May 18, 2025 at 1:06 pm

      @Another Scott: Jersey Gov. primary seems to be a dogfight. Rep. Mikie Sherril is said to have a polling lead, but she has challenges from Steve Fulop, the Jersey City mayor, Josh Gottheimer, another Representative, and Steve Sweeney, a South Jersey pol, plus Newark mayor Ras Baraka and Sean Spiller. Gottheimer has advertised heavily while Sweeney plays on the fact that he’s the only candidate from South Jersey and a union leader (Ironworkers).

      Reply
    149. 149.

      Matt McIrvin

      May 18, 2025 at 1:09 pm

      @hells littlest angel:

      I don’t envy Springsteen’s trip through Customs and Immigration when he returns. You know the fascists are just itching for someone high-profile to harass.

      I’m wondering if Bruce is in “I wish a motherfucker would” mode. Let’s see how it works out for them!

      Reply
    150. 150.

      trollhattan

      May 18, 2025 at 1:09 pm

      Holy shit it’s already happening, JD tried to assassinate the new pope.

      “Pope Leo XIV spurned J.D. Vance on Sunday, offering him a quick greeting after his inaugural mass while holding extensive private meetings with other world leaders,” the Daily Beast reports.

      “The first American pope shook Vance’s hand during a brief, 17-second exchange during the procession line after the mass.”

      Reply
    151. 151.

      Baud

      May 18, 2025 at 1:10 pm

      @Matt McIrvin:

      I bet he is.

      Reply
    152. 152.

      Bupalos

      May 18, 2025 at 1:11 pm

      @Baud: My advice is to not see difference of opinion as something other than what it is, especially not as a marker of a plot by enemies. I’m not suggesting your comment is something other than a genuinely held opinion and I do respect it and you.

      The way out of fascism – IMO the ONLY way out of fascism – is expanded solidarity and coalitions that grow to include those with whom we don’t entirely agree, but with whom we share overlap. I’d certainly put Democrats and Democratic Socialists in that circle. It will take work for each of them to refrain from seeing the other as ‘the enemy within,’ something both sides there can be guilty of.

      Reply
    153. 153.

      Professor Bigfoot

      May 18, 2025 at 1:12 pm

      @Another Scott: Indeed, we are, as a species.

      I agree, preservation of the Enslavement wasn’t the reason for the Revolution, but at the same time I’m not going to consider it “mere coincidence,” as I’ve seen insisted elsewhere.

      Of course, as a descendant of the Enslaved, I’m prejudiced. Sue me. ;)

      Reply
    154. 154.

      brantl

      May 18, 2025 at 1:12 pm

      @Shalimar:  The hatred in spite is exactly who he is. He’s never been anything else.

      Reply
    155. 155.

      Baud

      May 18, 2025 at 1:12 pm

      @Bupalos:

      The way out of fascism – IMO the ONLY way out of fascism – is expanded solidarity and coalitions that grow to include those with whom we don’t entirely agree

       
      Agreed. Anyone who wants to join me is welcome.

      Reply
    156. 156.

      japa21

      May 18, 2025 at 1:12 pm

      Currently at a human chain protest in the western suburbs of Chicago.  Several people on the  block we’re on. Will try to send pictures later.  only 1 middle finger salute so far. Lots of supporting honking

      Reply
    157. 157.

      hells littlest angel

      May 18, 2025 at 1:12 pm

      @trollhattan: The pope should thoroughly wash that hand with soap and holy water.

      Reply
    158. 158.

      Baud

      May 18, 2025 at 1:14 pm

      @hells littlest angel:

      Not strong enough. Summon the Chief Exorcist!

      Reply
    159. 159.

      Matt McIrvin

      May 18, 2025 at 1:14 pm

      @sab: They outlawed slavery in Britain before the American Revolution. They didn’t outlaw it in their colonies until 1833, and I find it hard to believe they’d have done it then in the timeline where they were still hanging on to the post-cotton-gin South.

      That said, they did recruit enslaved people to fight on the Loyalist side during the Revolution, because of course they would.

      Reply
    160. 160.

      sab

      May 18, 2025 at 1:14 pm

      @Matt McIrvin: Springsteen can afford the best, most high profile lawyers.

      Reply
    161. 161.

      The Audacity of Krope

      May 18, 2025 at 1:15 pm

      @Bupalos: The only way out of fascism is a broader coalition that includes people that we don’t agree with on everything

      We do, however, need a shared concept of reality. The media, across the board, seems to be on a mission to destroy that in favor of shallow entertainment. There’s no arguing or finding common cause with someone who thinks a cupcake tattoo on someone’s knuckle is proof positive of gang membership.

      Reply
    162. 162.

      schrodingers_cat

      May 18, 2025 at 1:16 pm

      @kalakal: I have been going through the Partition archives and I am seriously wondering what  total death count can we attribute to the British Empire? I am pretty sure the numbers exceed the carnage of WWII.

      And why do they not get any approbium for it?

      Reply
    163. 163.

      Baud

      May 18, 2025 at 1:16 pm

      @schrodingers_cat:

      I’d imagine rate of death plays into it.

      Reply
    164. 164.

      sab

      May 18, 2025 at 1:17 pm

      @Jackie: And both utterly incompetent judges.

      Reply
    165. 165.

      Matt McIrvin

      May 18, 2025 at 1:18 pm

      @Professor Bigfoot: The oddest thing to me is the deleted section Jefferson wrote for the Declaration of Independence, blaming the British Empire for slavery (which he specifically, enthusiastically participated in) and for the slave trade.

      People are complicated, but as long as I live I will never figure out that guy.

      Reply
    166. 166.

      The Audacity of Krope

      May 18, 2025 at 1:20 pm

      @schrodingers_cat: And why do they not get any approbium for it?

      Roughly half of modern society has convinced itself European expansionism was serving some kind of greater good.

      Sickos.

      Reply
    167. 167.

      kalakal

      May 18, 2025 at 1:20 pm

       

      @Professor Bigfoot:

      PLENTY of people still Enslaved in the “British West Indies” for decades after Stewart v Somerset.

      Absolutely true, the 1772 act banned slavery in England not the rest of the empire. The 1807 act banned the slave trade worldwide * but, following the benjamins it wasn’t until 1823 when the British West Indian sugar plantations stopped being hugely profitable that real progress was made in banning slavery in the colonies. It took the passage of the 1832 Reform Act, sweeping away the rotton boroughs and limiting the planters ability to buy MPs to enable the election of a ( less) corrupt parliament that was able to ban Slavery throughout the empire in 1833

      *

      Between 1808 and 1860, the West Africa Squadron captured 1,600 slave ships

      Reply
    168. 168.

      trollhattan

      May 18, 2025 at 1:21 pm

      @Matt McIrvin:

      Gotta wait for the musical.

      Reply
    169. 169.

      Bupalos

      May 18, 2025 at 1:21 pm

      @Baud: Well my way or the highway is somewhat of an improvement. So I’ll leave it there.

      Reply
    170. 170.

      Matt McIrvin

      May 18, 2025 at 1:22 pm

      @trollhattan: Already saw it.

      Reply
    171. 171.

      Baud

      May 18, 2025 at 1:23 pm

      @Bupalos:

      No one needs to agree with my point of view on anything except defeating the fascists.

      If they take the highway, that’s because they have other priorities.

      Reply
    172. 172.

      Jackie

      May 18, 2025 at 1:24 pm

      @trollhattan:

      “Pope Leo XIV spurned J.D. Vance on Sunday, offering him a quick greeting after his inaugural mass while holding extensive private meetings with other world leaders.”

      Including meeting with President Zelenskyy!

      “We thank the Vatican for its willingness to serve as a platform for direct negotiations between Ukraine and Russia. We are ready for dialogue in any format for the sake of tangible results. We appreciate the support for Ukraine and the clear voice in defense of a just and lasting peace,” Zelenskyy posted on X.

      I’m not religious, but I’m pro Pope Leo XIV!

      Reply
    173. 173.

      Ella

      May 18, 2025 at 1:25 pm

      Trump dissed Tayor Swift AND Bruce Springsteen in one week and as a die hard Boss fan since the 70’s who has a new found adoration for Tay since 2020, I have one thing to say.

      When you come for these two their fans-who reside on both sides of the aisle, will NOT put up with your shit, you little bitch.

      Reply
    174. 174.

      trollhattan

      May 18, 2025 at 1:27 pm

      @Matt McIrvin: The catchy Movin’ on up to the East Side song is my favorite part.

      Reply
    175. 175.

      Bruce K in ATH-GR

      May 18, 2025 at 1:27 pm

      @m.j.: They may need a new special-purpose Popemobile for that, with the cop motor, cop shocks, cop suspension…

      Reply
    176. 176.

      Matt McIrvin

      May 18, 2025 at 1:27 pm

      @Professor Bigfoot: Next logical step beyond the Jan. 6th pardons.

      Newt Gingrich has had Trump’s ear for a while. One of the many terrible ideas Newt Gingrich likes to bat around from time to time in interviews is sending troops to do war crimes with a federal pardon (or promise of same) already in hand along with their orders. Kind of like James Bond’s license to kill. Of course, Trump can’t pardon state crimes. But DC is federal territory.

      Reply
    177. 177.

      RevRick

      May 18, 2025 at 1:28 pm

      @Bupalos: Indeed! And it begins with a ceasefire on hurling invective at various Democratic politicians. For instance, I have seen FUs thrown at Jared Golden (ME-2) for a vote on a bad piece of culture war legislation, totally ignoring the fact that he won in a Trump +7 district. The demand for ideological purity is killing us.
      Even Jesus counseled his followers that they needed to be “as wise as serpents and as innocent as doves.”
      We need to remember that the first job of a politician is to get elected. And if, in the process of doing so, they take positions or votes that set our teeth on edge, we need to let our curiosity take over from our outrage. Start a dialogue, not a war.

      Reply
    178. 178.

      sab

      May 18, 2025 at 1:31 pm

      @Matt McIrvin: France had outlawed slavery when Jefferson was there as a diplomat. Sally Hemmings and her brothers could have chosen to stay behind and be free when Jefferson went home to Virginia, but most of their family was in Virginia so back they went. Life is complicated.

      I read Annette Gordon Reid’s biography of Jefferson. The Hemmings took that name because the slave trader fell in love with one of the slaves he was importing and hung around for a year trying to buy her. Failed, but she and her kids remembered. His name was Hemmings.

      There is correspondence by Jefferson with others about possibly selling a three year old slave away from his mother. Didn’t happen but it was discussible and discussed.

      Abigail (walks on water)  Adams was so concerned about Jefferson’s immortal soul that she was perfectly happy to suggest that fifteen year old Sally Hemmings should be shipped back to Virginia by herself on a ship full of sailors.

      Sally Hemmings was the half sister of Jefferson’s wife and looked a lot like her.

      People are complicated.

      Reply
    179. 179.

      Baud

      May 18, 2025 at 1:33 pm

      @sab:

      I’m pretty simple.

      Reply
    180. 180.

      Bupalos

      May 18, 2025 at 1:35 pm

      @kalakal: The American Revolution was not fought over slavery of course. But the specific form of the founding resulted in an immediate advance in freedom for black Americans in several states, as well as encoding the principles which led to an earlier complete abolition of slavery in the north. It’s impossible to say whether some alternate history whereby the southern colonies were still under the crown would have meant earlier or later abolition there. As you note it wasn’t until 1833 that Brittain gave up the colonial practice, and that well might have been delayed further if its economic interest in the institution hadn’t been degraded by American independence.

      Reply
    181. 181.

      Jay

      May 18, 2025 at 1:35 pm

      @schrodingers_cat:

      And why do they not get any approbium for it?

      There are many areas where they do, Africa, the Middle East, Canada, France,

      But the British Empire no longer exists, where other Empires still do.

      Reply
    182. 182.

      sab

      May 18, 2025 at 1:37 pm

      @schrodingers_cat: Tiny Belgium did way more harm in Africa than the Brits, and that is saying a lot.

      Reply
    183. 183.

      sab

      May 18, 2025 at 1:38 pm

      @Baud: Yeah, and I believe everything I read on the internet. Are you a dog?

      Reply
    184. 184.

      Jay

      May 18, 2025 at 1:39 pm

      More Perfect Union
      ‪@moreperfectunion.bsky.social‬

      Follow
      ICE recently conducted a raid of farm workers, seemingly focused on pro-union worker leaders.

      On Friday in New York the federal agents stopped a bus and, armed with a list, appeared to single out those who have been doing union organizing for years.

      theintercept.com/2025/05/05/i…

      https://bsky.app/profile/moreperfectunion.bsky.social/post/3lojbfnz5uk2t

      Reply
    185. 185.

      Geminid

      May 18, 2025 at 1:46 pm

      @RevRick: Rep. Mikie Sherrill could be pulling away from the rest of the pack in New Jersey’s Governor primary. An Emerson College poll taken May 13-15 showed her with 28% of likely voters; Newark Mayor Ras Baraka, Jersey City Mayor Steve Fulop, and Rep. Josh Gottheimer were tied at 11%.

      Reply
    186. 186.

      Bupalos

      May 18, 2025 at 1:46 pm

      @Baud: In general, the folks doing various versions of “we should have done something different from what you wanted to do” probably also have the goal of defeating the fascists. We disagree on methods. My suggestion is that we need to prioritize seeing the overlap and opportunity. Part of that is stretching “you’re welcome to join me” to “may I join you?” With the understanding that no one is expected either way to change their principles, but simply to find the overlap and tamp down the distrust.

      I actually took your “anyone is welcome to join me” as a bit of a Baudian joke.

      Reply
    187. 187.

      kalakal

      May 18, 2025 at 1:48 pm

      @schrodingers_cat: They get plenty of aprobium. Do you mean deaths due to the British Empire(s) in toto or regarding  Partition? Decades ago  I read the Lapierre/Collins book you posted about, totally shocked me, as to what a mess it was in all directions.

      I honestly can’t imagine a way to calculate the excess body count attributable to colonial empires over such a length of time , I also can’t understand defences of colonialism, it is a malign and pernicious practice

      Reply
    188. 188.

      Dorothy A. Winsor

      May 18, 2025 at 1:51 pm

      I’m reading Fredrik Backman’s new book, “My Friends.” It’s terrific.

      Reply
    189. 189.

      Bupalos

      May 18, 2025 at 1:53 pm

      @RevRick: Very much agree, and I love when you bring scripture to these things. It makes me feel like I’ve been to church without the inherent danger of casserole. 

      In general I think we need to remember that representatives are representatives. Political transformation in the United States really can’t come from the political class. Morality doesn’t flow from a mechanism.

      Reply
    190. 190.

      Matt McIrvin

      May 18, 2025 at 1:55 pm

      @RevRick: I’m going to keep talking shit about Democrats who take right-wing positions in Massachusetts. They may be popular positions! But in most of the state, I don’t think they’re crucial for winning races against Republicans.

      Reply
    191. 191.

      Melancholy Jaques

      May 18, 2025 at 1:57 pm

      @Professor Bigfoot:

      I certainly didn’t forget slavery.  But plantation owners didn’t get oligarch rich until the cotton gin.

      The richest American at the time of the revolution was probably Charles Carroll. He wasn’t worth even a half a billion in today’s dollars. Same with General Washington, who didn’t really cash in until after the revolution.

      The wealth we associated with oligarchs didn’t exist outside royalty until industrial era.

      Reply
    192. 192.

      Redshift

      May 18, 2025 at 1:58 pm

      Good for Tim Kaine: responds to Biden question by saying no voters are asking him about that, immediately pivots to talking about Trump economic chaos and corruption.

      Reply
    193. 193.

      The Audacity of Krope

      May 18, 2025 at 1:59 pm

      @Redshift: 👏👏👏

      Reply
    194. 194.

      Redshift

      May 18, 2025 at 2:00 pm

      @Baud:

      No one needs to agree with my point of view on anything except defeating the fascists.

      Hear, hear!

      Reply
    195. 195.

      schrodingers_cat

      May 18, 2025 at 2:01 pm

      @sab: Did they? I mean that’s the conventional wisdom.

      Reply
    196. 196.

      trollhattan

      May 18, 2025 at 2:03 pm

      @Bruce K in ATH-GR: ​
      I got the reference, just so you know. ;-)

      Reply
    197. 197.

      Geminid

      May 18, 2025 at 2:03 pm

      @Another Scott: I know some about Attorney General candidate Jay Jones, mainly that his father was a long-serving Delegate and Northam ally before the General Assembly made him a Circuit Court Judge; and his grandfather was a well known lawyer in the Civil Rights movement and the first African American to serve on Virginia’s State Board of Education.

      Like Jay Jones, Aaron Rouse, the candidate for Lt. Governor is from the Tidewater area. Rouse grew up in Virginia Beach, was a star defensive back at Virginia Tech and played five years in the NFL. Then he returned home and won a seat on the Virginia Beach City Council. Rouse won a special election to fill Jen Kiggans’ state Senate seat in early 2023, after Kiggans beat Rep. Elaine Luria in the 2022 midterms.

      Reply
    198. 198.

      schrodingers_cat

      May 18, 2025 at 2:06 pm

      @kalakal: Not enough IMHO. In India itself the death count due to famines is over 50 million in the 90 years of Crown Rule.

      I was recently reading about what they did in Kenya before being kicked out of there,

      During the partition the British Indian Army pretty much sat on its hands and did little to quell the actual violence.

      I am sorry I didn’t mean to pick on you. What is aggravating is  that we still have guys like Niall Ferguson running around telling everyone how Indians should be thankful for the British Empire.

      And even on BJ people thought of QE2 as a nice old lady not a living representative of monstrous institution which has a body count of 10 of millions of people.

      Reply
    199. 199.

      different-church-lady

      May 18, 2025 at 2:07 pm

      @Sure Lurkalot: ​That’s Murc’s Law applied to one’s own forehead with a mallet.

      Reply
    200. 200.

      Bupalos

      May 18, 2025 at 2:08 pm

      @Sure Lurkalot: Democrats are in general less popular than Trump, which is quite a feat. I think we should probably get over this “we do nothing wrong” thing.

      Murphy is offering political strategy and identifying tactical mistakes. I tend to agree with his analysis, I think a primary would have given Harris a much better chance to win for multiple reasons. But whether you do or not, I think it’s a real mistake to see it as absolving the fascists (and even their supporters and dupes) of agency. It was our job to defeat them. They shouldn’t be that hard to beat. We failed at that and we should be able to look at that and learn lessons. We better get better.

      Reply
    201. 201.

      different-church-lady

      May 18, 2025 at 2:08 pm

      @Sister Golden Bear: Goddamn I am so sick of insane people…

      Reply
    202. 202.

      different-church-lady

      May 18, 2025 at 2:09 pm

      @Bupalos: ​That’s only because Democrats hate Democrats too.

      Reply
    203. 203.

      kalakal

      May 18, 2025 at 2:09 pm

      @schrodingers_cat:

      The Belgian Congo may well have been the absolute lowest point of European colonialism in Africa. And that is including the treatment Herrero and Namaqua in Namibia ( then known as German South West Africa ) which is usually classed as the first 20th Century genocide

      Reply
    204. 204.

      Redshift

      May 18, 2025 at 2:11 pm

      @Another Scott:

      Spanberger has no competition for VA Governor on the Democratic side. Things seem wide open in the Lt. Governor race with 3 main contenders – Hashmi, Rouse, and Stoney. Something like 45% of primary voters are undecided. Does anyone have any favorites?

      I’m in that category. I’ve been reading and listening to the candidates, and they all seem good. A few of them were a bit rough as speakers early in the race, but they seem to have found their footing since then. Anyway, having many good candidates who aren’t attacking each other is a good problem to have, but it makes it tough to decide.

      Reply
    205. 205.

      Jay

      May 18, 2025 at 2:15 pm

      Taniel
      ‪@taniel.bsky.social‬

      Follow
      JUST IN: TV exit polls of Romanian presidential election shows far-right candidate, Simion, LOSING by 8-10%, to centrist opponent Dan.

      Simion got 41% in round 1 two weeks ago, so had strong shot today. turnout surged.

      BUT: exit polls in round 1 underestimated Simion. Not over yet. Watch returns.
      May 18, 2025 at 11:05 AM

      https://bsky.app/profile/taniel.bsky.social/post/3lphnhebzzc2o

      Reply
    206. 206.

      Baud

      May 18, 2025 at 2:15 pm

      @Bupalos:

      In general, the folks doing various versions of “we should have done something different from what you wanted to do” probably also have the goal of defeating the fascists

       
      I have no idea what’s in anyone’s heart.

      Part of that is stretching “you’re welcome to join me” to “may I join you?”

      That makes no sense. I’m already here.

      Reply
    207. 207.

      Baud

      May 18, 2025 at 2:17 pm

      @Redshift:

      Awesome.

      Reply
    208. 208.

      schrodingers_cat

      May 18, 2025 at 2:17 pm

      @Baud: True. But the total body count is also important. I wonder if someone has compiled a body count for all the deaths due to the policies of the British Empire. We have seen the numbers for Mao, Pol Pot and Stalin. Has anyone compiled the numbers for Queen Vicky? Instead we see soft focus rom com type treatment given to her on PBS shows and many movies

      I spent a whole day at the WestMinister Abbey and they are mighty proud of the East India Company to this day. I saw many plaques donated by the Company displayed proudly.

      Reply
    209. 209.

      Sure Lurkalot

      May 18, 2025 at 2:20 pm

      @Bupalos: I’ll let someone else reply to your drivel.

      Sam‬ ‪@samd.bsky.social‬
      · 1h

      it’s pretty remarkable how the Democratic Party is self-flagellating more in 2025 after swapping out their candidate and losing the popular vote by 1.5% than republicans did in 2021 after losing the popular vote by 4.5% and inciting an insurrection.

      Reply
    210. 210.

      Baud

      May 18, 2025 at 2:21 pm

      @different-church-lady:

      True.

      Also, it’s a dumb comparison to compare an individual to a faceless organization.

      Congress always polls really low too.

      Reply
    211. 211.

      The Audacity of Krope

      May 18, 2025 at 2:22 pm

      @Bupalos: Murphy is offering political strategy and identifying tactical mistakes. I tend to agree with his analysis

      Sorry, some things go beyond matters of opinion. What happened last July showed full moral bankruptcy and cowardice on the parts of many, many Democrats. I don’t like them revisiting this now to double down.

      Shit, the initial wound may still prove fatal and they choose now to start rubbing in salt? Old dusty floor salt at that.

      Reply
    212. 212.

      Geminid

      May 18, 2025 at 2:22 pm

      @New Deal democrat: Great Britain had an even had bigger worry than Canada. There were plenty of people next door in Ireland who were eager to secede from the United Kingdom, and plenty of Irish in the Union Army who were ready to help.

      The Royal Navy would have been hard pressed keeping American arms and volunteers from being landed on the Irish Coast. The British could see how hard it was for the Union Navy just to keep British blockade runners out out of Wilmington and Mobile.

      Lincoln’s Ambassador to England, Charles Francis Adams never explicitely warned of the trouble the US could make in Ireland, but the British could read between the lines when when he told them there was no telling what intervention on behalf of the South would lead to.

      Reply
    213. 213.

      Gretchen

      May 18, 2025 at 2:27 pm

      @Redshift: Finally, a Democrat with sense. Why would you relitigate something that’s long over when crazy things are happening every day right now?

      Reply
    214. 214.

      Bupalos

      May 18, 2025 at 2:28 pm

      @schrodingers_cat: Well they certainly do, I’d say they’re kind of suspect #1 in decolonization circles.

      But I’d say analyzing an empire from that point of view is pretty complex. The successful empires didn’t get where they got solely by conquest and destruction, because it’s simply impossible to be a successful empire that way. They succeed by breaking systems of rule and administration while offering new systems of rule and administration that offer people something and give other stakeholders an interest.

      The Roman Empire (which by percentage of the world population slaughtered or starved by its conquest was definitely bloodier than Great Britain) is a great example, and this scene from Life of Brian is instructive as to how hard that calculation would be.

      Reply
    215. 215.

      Miss Bianca

      May 18, 2025 at 2:29 pm

      @JML: Yes, I don’t notice a sudden big call to boycott Springsteen, burn his CDs, or attempt to hound him from public life for his remarks; unlike what happened to, say, the (Dixie) Chicks.

      I’m sure gender has nothing to do with the difference.//

      Reply
    216. 216.

      Gretchen

      May 18, 2025 at 2:31 pm

      @schrodingers_cat: I’ve seen numbers compiled for the Irish Famine when the British exported food throughout while inhabitants starved to death. I’m sure the numbers are much higher for India, and haven’t seen any compiled. It’s interesting that the British claimed to be bringing benevolent civilization to both places, and then felt no responsibility not to steal all the food while the population starved.

      Reply
    217. 217.

      schrodingers_cat

      May 18, 2025 at 2:33 pm

      @Gretchen: Famines killed over 50 million people in British India over a course of 90 years IIRC. This is just compiling numbers from Wikipedia

      India was known for its wealth before the British, Bengal was its richest province. British were in Bengal for 200 years and now Bangladesh is synonymous with abject poverty.

      Thanks Niall Ferguson.

      Reply
    218. 218.

      Bupalos

      May 18, 2025 at 2:34 pm

      @The Audacity of Krope: I disagree both with the opinion and moral analysis. Actually with the idea of moralizing a matter that was fundamentally about tactical politics. That’s one of our biggest problems I think, one which the internet is putting on steroids.

      No, whether or not you have a contested primary when your incumbent is over 80 and posting popularity numbers simply inconsistent with winning is not a moral issue. I can certainly entertain the various ideas as to why it’s NOT a good idea tactically, but I think moralizing the question is a mistake.

      Reply
    219. 219.

      Betty Cracker

      May 18, 2025 at 2:34 pm

      @Bupalos: I don’t necessarily disagree with Murphy, but imo, it’s not helpful to rehash that shit now. I wish every Dem who’s asked about Biden in 2024 would turn the question back on Trump 2025. Some have done so, and skillfully (Pritzker, for one).

      I saw a longer clip of Murphy’s MTP appearance, and he was otherwise on point. He went into detail about the shitty GOP budget reconciliation bill, calling it the largest transfer of wealth from the poor and middle-class to the very rich. He also discussed Trump’s astounding corruption.

      Reply
    220. 220.

      kalakal

      May 18, 2025 at 2:34 pm

      @schrodingers_cat: It’s OK I don’t think you are picking on me.

      In India itself the death count due to famines is over 50 million in the 90 years of Crown Rule.

      Famines have occurred for millennia,

      The 1629- 32 Gujurat- Deccan famine is estimated to have killed 4 million people. That said under the British they seem to have increased in severity and frequency and the Benghal famine in 1943 was particularly atrocious, it was caused by a perfect storm of events, both natural and human and the British handled it terribly. I’ve heard lower total figures than yours for the total excess mortality due to famine for the British period but even the lowest is 20,000,000 which is ghastly.

      During the partition the British Indian Army pretty much sat on its hands and did little to quell the actual violence.

      Pretty much the case., The commanders were desperate to not be seen as taking a side and also felt ( probably correctly) that the troops had stronger loyalties than to them. They had after all just been dealing with legacy of Bose’s INA, having wanted to charge 300 officers with treason and having had to back down in the face of opposition by Congress. Could they have done more? Almost certainly but equally almost certainly the army would have disintegrated with the fragments joining in the slaughter on both sides.

      Niall Ferguson and his ilk are beneath contempt

      Reply
    221. 221.

      schrodingers_cat

      May 18, 2025 at 2:36 pm

      @kalakal: Many of the famines in British India were due to policy decisions of growing cash crops that needed lots of water in dry and arid areas.

      Reply
    222. 222.

      Matt McIrvin

      May 18, 2025 at 2:38 pm

      @kalakal: There were also other sources of cotton that could be developed. Ever heard of Egyptian cotton? Yeah, that is a huge export industry because of our Civil War.

      Reply
    223. 223.

      different-church-lady

      May 18, 2025 at 2:38 pm

      @Betty Cracker: ​

      I wish every Dem who’s asked about Biden in 2024 would turn the question back on Trump 2025.

      If we had been bright enough to do that eleven months ago we might not have Trump 2025.

      Reply
    224. 224.

      Jay

      May 18, 2025 at 2:38 pm

      @schrodingers_cat:

      https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2022/04/04/the-british-empire-was-much-worse-than-you-realize-caroline-elkinss-legacy-of-violence

      Reply
    225. 225.

      different-church-lady

      May 18, 2025 at 2:40 pm

      @Miss Bianca: The Dixie Chicks supposedly belonged to the South. The “South” saw it as a betrayal. Whereas Springsteen was never theirs to begin with.

      Reply
    226. 226.

      George

      May 18, 2025 at 2:40 pm

      @Sure Lurkalot:

       A lot of the self-flagellation among Democrats is driven by external forces that have something to gain by keeping focus off the rolling FFOTUS trainwreck.

      This includes the limp mainstream media, as well as whoever writes articles and headlines for the jibberish-friendly click bait “news” that I see online. A normie who sees headlines that pump up the false notion of “Democrats in disarray” is going to absorb that into its consciousness, rather than challenging the notion with facts.

      What irks me is that so many apparently liberal Democrats take the bait and pick fights with potential allies, which allows the One True Enemy to continue toward its goal.

      Relatedly, perhaps, on a recent podcast Anne Applebaum, who has studied the drift of various countries into authoritarianism, notes that what we see now from the resistance/opposition in the U.S. is typical of what happens elsewhere. That is, it takes awhile for various parts of the resistance to coalesce into a single movement.

      Instead of understanding how a typical resistance starts and flourishes, though, various commenters and media types–e.g., Jon Stewart–would rather devote time and effort to criticizing the resistance rather than helping to create a solid opposition movement.

      Reply
    227. 227.

      Gretchen

      May 18, 2025 at 2:40 pm

      @schrodingers_cat: Yes. Also their determination to steal the resources of places they colonized to the detriment of the people who lived there. Stealing their stuff was always a priority.

      And of course making them grow unsuitable crops for export rather than crops that would be good for sustaining the locals.

      Reply
    228. 228.

      Matt McIrvin

      May 18, 2025 at 2:41 pm

      @Miss Bianca: The really committed MAGAs already hate Springsteen–Trump denouncing him is just telling them things they already believe.

      Reply
    229. 229.

      schrodingers_cat

      May 18, 2025 at 2:42 pm

      @Jay: I am reading that book right now. We who have been subjects of the Empire already know this but many white people need one of their own to confirm what we have been saying for decades.

      Reply
    230. 230.

      kalakal

      May 18, 2025 at 2:43 pm

      @schrodingers_cat: Yep, all too often the cause ( or at the very least amplifiers) of famines throughout history. I remember seeing food for sale in Western supermarkets in 1990s at the height of the Somalian famine* marked produce of Somalia

      *the famine was sparked by a multi sided civil war

      Reply
    231. 231.

      different-church-lady

      May 18, 2025 at 2:43 pm

      @Redshift: Another good reply would be, “I’m not going to help you sell your book when democracy itself is being torn down.”

      Reply
    232. 232.

      Gretchen

      May 18, 2025 at 2:43 pm

      @schrodingers_cat: Can you recommend a basic book about the partition? My knowledge of that history is sadly lacking.

      Reply
    233. 233.

      Geminid

      May 18, 2025 at 2:45 pm

      @Bupalos: Most of the empires I’ve read about succeeded through conquest and destruction. Sometimes the conquerors imposed a new system of governance, but more often they took over the old system of administration for themselves.

      And the principal option they offered to the “stakeholders” was, if you don’t resist us we won’t kill you.

      Reply
    234. 234.

      The Audacity of Krope

      May 18, 2025 at 2:45 pm

      @Bupalos: No, whether or not you have a contested primary when your incumbent is over 80 and posting popularity numbers simply inconsistent with winning is not a moral issue.

      Tossing the results after the primary is concluded is absolutely a moral issue.

      Giving into blatantly shallow propaganda is a moral issue.

      Nothing good comes from putting optics over substance. That trend in our culture is bad enough, we shouldn’t be feeding into it.

      Reply
    235. 235.

      zhena gogolia

      May 18, 2025 at 2:45 pm

      @Baud: I haven’t given up on Whitmer, or on Newsome, really.

      Reply
    236. 236.

      kalakal

      May 18, 2025 at 2:47 pm

      @Matt McIrvin: The main source of cotton for the British was India, which was great for British industrialists, not so good for the long established Indian clothing industry. For many years no-one could compete with the British on price due them being the only industrialised country. At one point one town ( Sheffield) made 90% of the world’s steel

      Reply
    237. 237.

      Matt McIrvin

      May 18, 2025 at 2:49 pm

      @kalakal:

      I also can’t understand defences of colonialism, it is a malign and pernicious practice

      It’s the glamor of power, combined with fantasies of people somehow like you having adventures in exotic lands. Often it’s justified with some mystical invocation of Manifest Destiny or the Outward Urge. So much prettier than calling it robbery.

      Reply
    238. 238.

      Betty Cracker

      May 18, 2025 at 2:50 pm

      @zhena gogolia: Newsom is the only one I’m ready to vote off the island right now. I’ll admit I never liked him in the first place though. He radiates thirst. (But I’ll vote for him if he’s the nominee, of course.)

      Reply
    239. 239.

      trollhattan

      May 18, 2025 at 2:57 pm

      @different-church-lady:

      On hearing first line of Born in the USA.

      “One of us!”

      Listening to rest of lyrics—optional.

      Reply
    240. 240.

      Baud

      May 18, 2025 at 2:57 pm

      @zhena gogolia:

      I’ve given up on everybody. But someone is going to win the primary regardless.

      Reply
    241. 241.

      Miss Bianca

      May 18, 2025 at 2:58 pm

      @The Audacity of Krope:

      Nothing good comes from putting optics over substance.

      QFT

      Reply
    242. 242.

      Formerly disgruntled in Oregon

      May 18, 2025 at 2:59 pm

      @Betty Cracker: 100% with you on Newsom.

      “If you stand for nothing, [Gav], what’ll you fall for?”

      Reply
    243. 243.

      Jay

      May 18, 2025 at 3:01 pm

      @schrodingers_cat:

      The New Yorker review notes that there are a few issues with the book, it’s conclusions, it’s point of view, and that is “incomplete”.

      But it is a very significant book.

      Reply
    244. 244.

      The Audacity of Krope

      May 18, 2025 at 3:02 pm

      @Formerly disgruntled in Oregon: If Newsom thinks cis women are victims of trans women, where else is he susceptible to reverse bigotry notions?

      Reply
    245. 245.

      Formerly disgruntled in Oregon

      May 18, 2025 at 3:04 pm

      @Baud: We all seem to have our red lines, but of course will fall in line if that’s what it takes to preserve our Constitution.

      So far, only Newsom has crossed mine. (i.e. palling around with Charlie Kirk while trashing the civil rights of one of our country’s most marginalized minorities – I guess my red line is kinda specific…)

      Reply
    246. 246.

      Jay

      May 18, 2025 at 3:09 pm

      @The Audacity of Krope:

      There is a school of thought amongst the Pundit Class, the consultant class and the MAGgot’s that 2024 was lost because the Democratic Party was obsessed with Trans issues, (hint, they were not, ReThugs were) and refused to underbus Trans folk.

      Reply
    247. 247.

      Baud

      May 18, 2025 at 3:11 pm

      @Jay:

      To be fair, there’s lots of schools of thoughts about why Dems aren’t good enough for voters.

      Reply
    248. 248.

      The Audacity of Krope

      May 18, 2025 at 3:13 pm

      @Jay: I’ve been apt to blame our overall electoral condition on pundits, the consultant class, and MAGA.

      Funny, that….

      Reply
    249. 249.

      Bupalos

      May 18, 2025 at 3:14 pm

      @Baud: Again there’s an insensible shift here between “on defeating the fascists” and “on how we defeat the fascists.”

      The subtitle of the opinion piece you identified as an ‘attempt’ to divide Democrats:
      “If Democrats want to save the party and defeat Trump in the midterms, it’s clear that something needs to change. Bernie Sanders is providing a roadmap for how to do it.”
      I take this to be the context of our little thread here, but maybe it’s not your meaning.

      Reply
    250. 250.

      Baud

      May 18, 2025 at 3:17 pm

      @Bupalos:

      I didn’t click on the article. The way it was described on Reddit, the article was rehashing the past, not talking about the future. If the article was chastising or scolding Democratic primary voters for their past choices, then I stand by my characterization of it as divisive, and something we should protect ourselves against.

      Reply
    251. 251.

      Baud

      May 18, 2025 at 3:23 pm

      @zhena gogolia:

      NEWSOM

      Reply
    252. 252.

      The Audacity of Krope

      May 18, 2025 at 3:24 pm

      @Baud: Gabbing Newsome Nuisance can have his name spelled right when he develops some respect for trans folk and organized labor.

      Reply
    253. 253.

      Baud

      May 18, 2025 at 3:26 pm

      @The Audacity of Krope:

      You don’t appreciate how important correct name spelling is to zhena.

      Reply
    254. 254.

      Jay

      May 18, 2025 at 3:26 pm

      @Baud:

      The #1 reason 2024 was “lost” is roughly 35% of Low Information Voters stayed home and about 20% of DJTdiot’s voters voted to “punish” the Democratic Party over single issue resentments.

      I thing the root cause of this is constant Legacy Media and Social Media “attacks” on the Democratic Party and constant sanewashing of DJTdiot.

      There is a German Documentary Investigation I am waiting for, when it’s subtitled into English. It covers an 8 year “Op”, lead by Putin directly, to target Silicon Valley with disinfo and manipulation, that was wildly successful.

      Reply
    255. 255.

      Bupalos

      May 18, 2025 at 3:27 pm

      @The Audacity of Krope:

      Tossing the results after the primary is concluded is absolutely a moral issue.

      I’d agree, but of course the Party didn’t do this. And in tactical terms I think it hurt us that Biden was left with the right to decide to give up power or not, because that’s a near impossible thing for a politician to do, and it took him a long time to aquiesce.

      Giving into blatantly shallow propaganda is a moral issue.

      Well, you’ll need to talk to democracy itself about this. I mean, the political reality is the political reality. What in today’s terms passes for a supermajority of Democrats wanted a different candidate after the debate. I’ll argue they saw what they saw, you may argue they were manipulated into believing that kind of stumble was important. But the bottom line is that our voters wanted a different candidate.

      Nothing good comes from putting optics over substance. That trend in our culture is bad enough, we shouldn’t be feeding into it.

      There are a lot of ways to interpret “the optics” of this. At the time, a very potent argument for not moving on from Biden was that “the optics” of switching candidates was terrible.  Which in ways it was. But I’d say it goes very much to political substance for a party to try to offer the candidate its voters want. Aspects of “optics” can clash like that.

      Reply
    256. 256.

      Jay

      May 18, 2025 at 3:29 pm

      Newsome’s next podcast will be lit. He’s going to interview live, a serial killer of the unhoused who is still running loose.

      Reply
    257. 257.

      satby

      May 18, 2025 at 3:29 pm

      Dead thread since I’m on Irish time, but my answer to people babbling about Joe Biden, his age, or his cognitive skills is consistently this (from my Substack reply to someone, feel free to steal):

      No. Joe Biden in a coma would still be a better president than the corrupt, senile turd stinking up the White House now. Let’s concentrate on the REPUBLICANS who enable the destruction of our government and Constitution.

      Reply
    258. 258.

      Baud

      May 18, 2025 at 3:30 pm

      @satby:

      Not dead at all.

      Reply
    259. 259.

      Redshift

      May 18, 2025 at 3:31 pm

      @Betty Cracker:

      I don’t necessarily disagree with Murphy, but imo, it’s not helpful to rehash that shit now.

      Exactly. Arguing over what we should have done differently is only useful when it’s something we can apply now. Hashing over what we should have done in a situation that will probably never occur again in our lifetime (what to do with a candidate who may not be medically up to the job after the nomination has been decided and the opponent is such that the stakes are incredibly high) is just damaging, not helpful.

      Reply
    260. 260.

      Baud

      May 18, 2025 at 3:34 pm

      @Redshift:

      I agree.  Everyone of good faith who wants to rehash the past assumes in the back of their minds that their view will prevail. They never suspect that they’ll be torn a new one if we really had that discussion.

      Then, of course, are all the people who lack good faith.

      Reply
    261. 261.

      prostratedragon

      May 18, 2025 at 3:34 pm

      @They Call Me Noni:  And speaking of Thurgood Marshall, the NAACP Legal Defense Fund.

      Reply
    262. 262.

      satby

      May 18, 2025 at 3:35 pm

      IOW, eyes on the fucking prize. Not endless rewrites of old man revisionist history:

      “Bernie woulda won” … except primaries, apparently.

      “Joe Biden (bafflegab of the day”) Not the point, Republicans have agency and responsibilities, let’s talk about them for a change.

      We make it hard on ourselves, we need to stop and train others to stop.

      Reply
    263. 263.

      The Audacity of Krope

      May 18, 2025 at 3:35 pm

      @Bupalos: I’d agree, but of course the Party didn’t do this.

      Not familiar with the concept of duress, are we?

      Well, you’ll need to talk to democracy itself about this. I mean, the political reality is the political reality.

      Don’t we expect leaders to lead, or something? Sometimes you need to stand on  ten toes to the ground and push for what’s right even if polls suggest it won’t be easy.

      But the bottom line is that our voters wanted a different candidate.

      As measured how? Our primary very explicitly included a “Biden too old” candidate.

      But I’d say it goes very much to political substance for a party to try to offer the candidate its voters want.

      …as measured how? The primary had ended. You’re trying to make the insubstantial substantial with this comment when you know full well I’m talking about people being able to recognize who knows what they’re talking about about when presented with two people on a stage without defaulting to “this one has a stronger voice.”

      Shallow shit.

      Reply
    264. 264.

      Suzanne

      May 18, 2025 at 3:36 pm

      @Betty Cracker:

      I don’t necessarily disagree with Murphy, but imo, it’s not helpful to rehash that shit now. 

      Agree 100%. Not helpful, bad politics. Biden is a private citizen now, and this is gratuitously cruel.

      Reply
    265. 265.

      Lyrebird

      May 18, 2025 at 3:39 pm

      @narya: Yes! Yes!  Oh I wish…

      and

      @Jeffro: thanks for chiming in!!  Sounds like an awesome party.  Maybe you can have “moron cakes” shipped in from Denmark, too.

      Reply
    266. 266.

      Bupalos

      May 18, 2025 at 3:44 pm

      @Betty Cracker: I think when you have a brand problem, you’re better off dealing with the brand problem. If you had a batch of candy bars that people decided tasted terrible, you may be better off identifying and explaining something you think went wrong in your process or supply chain… something to let people know you aren’t just saying they’re wrong about your candy and insisting they need to learn to love the taste because it’s just a better taste.

      But I also don’t think the other perspective is wrong, you can do too much of that as well. It’s a question of balance, and I think Murphy does a fine job of that and it seems to be what you’re saying about that appearance. What we see here quite a bit is a kind of puritanism about not recognizing our failings as those failings interact with the destabilized state of American society right now. I don’t think we can afford that, I think it really will keep us from getting better at this. Which… my opinion is that things are likely to get more difficult for us in the coming decade, both in terms of more effective Trumps, and worse conditions for democracy due to inequality, climate change, and technology mediated social destabilizations.  I think we’re like a major league team that just lost to little leaguers, in a warm up for the real season. The real season is coming. It’s very much appropriate to ask questions about every aspect of our performance.

      Reply
    267. 267.

      The Audacity of Krope

      May 18, 2025 at 3:45 pm

      @Redshift: Hashing over what we should have done in a situation that will probably never occur again in our lifetime (what to do with a candidate who may not be medically up to the job after the nomination has been decided and the opponent is such that the stakes are incredibly high)

      Depends on framing. I look at it as “Democrats ceding their better judgment to polls and donor pressure.”

      It isn’t just Biden who can get underbussed with that state of affairs. Trans people and academics are suffering right now at least partially because of this tendency among Democrats.

      Reply
    268. 268.

      Jay

      May 18, 2025 at 3:48 pm

      @The Audacity of Krope:

      Academics are “suffering” right now because their Institutions underbussed them and complied in advance.

      Reply
    269. 269.

      pajaro

      May 18, 2025 at 3:49 pm

      @Bupalos:

      Every Democrat who was in office at the time the 2024 primary season commenced was aware that one of the candidates was going to be someone who was over 80.  Each and every one of them was responsible to their country, and themselves, for deciding whether it was important for Democratic primary voters to have a choice other than that guy (beyond Dean Phillips)  Beto and Chris Murphy  chose not to challenge President Biden during the primary season, or, importantly, to even urge anyone else to do so.

      Either they were cowards, or they believed at the time  (incorrectly perhaps) that it was best for the country for the party to unite behind Biden.    EXCEPT, EXCEPT, if both the President, and/or malign actors in Biden-world were deceiving them about the true condition of the President, when disclosure would have made it clear he could not continue, in which case, they could not, of course, be blamed.

      And this, to me, is why it’s inherently divisive to deal with this issue any longer–you have to accept the bad faith of people on your team to avoid the conclusion that you were also responsible, at some level, for the way things turned out, and not one soul who is condemning Biden has even suggested that they too could have done better.

      Reply
    270. 270.

      Professor Bigfoot

      May 18, 2025 at 3:51 pm

      @Melancholy Jaques:The wealth we associated with oligarchs didn’t exist outside royalty until industrial era.

      Fair point.

      Reply
    271. 271.

      The Audacity of Krope

      May 18, 2025 at 3:51 pm

      @Jay: Academics are “suffering” right now because their Institutions underbussed them and complied in advance.

      They sure did, with an “Amen” chorus from the Democrats and composition by the Republicans.

      Reply
    272. 272.

      lowtechcyclist

      May 18, 2025 at 3:52 pm

      @hells littlest angel: ​
       

      The pope should thoroughly wash that hand with soap and holy water.

      Now I’ve got the joke about the four nuns going through my head.

      Reply
    273. 273.

      Jay

      May 18, 2025 at 3:55 pm

      https://www.emptywheel.net/2025/05/17/journalists-persistent-willingness-to-chase-trumps-squirrels-biden-recording-edition/


      Journalists’ Persistent Willingness to Chase Trump’s Squirrels, Biden Recording Edition

      May 17, 2025/22 Comments/in emptywheel /by emptywheel

      To get a sense of how much releasing recordings of Rob Hur’s interview with Joe Biden in advance of the legal release of them was about attention management, you need look no further than the Fox News homepage (this was from shortly after midnight ET).

      The humiliating defeat for Donald Trump’s One Big Beautiful Bill in the House? Buried on the bottom of the front page.

      The Supreme Court’s ruling protecting due process rights for those Trump tried to render to El Salvador using an Alien Enemies Act, which made it clear at least two Republican justices believe they can’t trust the Trump Administration? Second row.

      Judge Paula Xinis’ rebuttal of DOJ’s claims that deporting Kilmar Abrego Garcia without a warrant, in spite of an order prohibiting it, was legal? Third row down.

      A clip from the exclusive interview Bret Baier had with the President, in which Trump falsely claimed China needed to make a deal more than he did and bizarrely refused to say the work “nuclear”? Also buried there on the bottom.

      For Fox News, a cherry-picked excerpt of Robert Hur’s interview of President Biden merited the entire top of the page, with six different stories based on that cherry-picked release to Marc Caputo and Alex Thompson.

      Biden.

      Biden.

      Biden.

      Biden.

      Biden.

      Biden.

      I thought DJTdiot was President now?

      Am I wrong?

      Reply
    274. 274.

      lowtechcyclist

      May 18, 2025 at 3:57 pm

      @Baud: ​

      If they take the highway, that’s because they have other priorities life is a highway.​
       

      Fixed. :-)

      Reply
    275. 275.

      The Audacity of Krope

      May 18, 2025 at 4:01 pm

      @Jay: Also, too, even the clips they chose to excerpt and the claims they make about those clips don’t add up. Like they say Biden doesn’t know when Beau died when he was providing information about a time frame that included when Beau died.

      When asked the year directly he answered correctly, but they ignore that.

      Ghouls.

      Reply
    276. 276.

      Baud

      May 18, 2025 at 4:02 pm

      @Jay:

      @The Audacity of Krope:

      I thought that had previously been released. I remember people talking about Beau’s death.

      Reply
    277. 277.

      Baud

      May 18, 2025 at 4:05 pm

      @Jay:

      Fox isn’t a good example. They would have found something to talk about no matter what.

      Reply
    278. 278.

      The Audacity of Krope

      May 18, 2025 at 4:05 pm

      @Baud: Unless there was another time Biden also talked about this, wouldn’t be surprising, but that was the segment all the Foxbot late night anchors had on a loop Friday night.

      Reply
    279. 279.

      trollhattan

      May 18, 2025 at 4:05 pm

      @Jay: ​
      Guess that settles it: Biden should not run for reelection.

      Reply
    280. 280.

      Bupalos

      May 18, 2025 at 4:08 pm

      @The Audacity of Krope:

      Not familiar with the concept of duress, are we?

      You said “tossing the results of the primary.” This simply didn’t happen. And of course if we’re expanding from the concrete definition to this kind of less formal feel of practical reality, then we didn’t have a primary at all. A real primary is one where the real differences within the party are represented by effective representatives of those positions. Parties essentially never have those when they are in incumbency (though I wouldn’t be surprised to see this change in the new political reality we’re headed to.) 2016 was a real primary, which Clinton really won. 2020 was not a primary in any sense but the technical one. I’d definitely consider any given opinion poll once the question was open more “democratic” than a primary election where everyone understands the question to be closed.

      As measured how? Our primary very explicitly included a “Biden too old” candidate.

      Democracy doesn’t happen once every 4 years. Things changed. People didn’t want Biden as the candidate as the deadline for something else to happen approached. This was measured by polls, the same ones that said Biden was increasingly unpopular because of inflation and a new perception of significant age related decline. It’s worth noting that the reporting is that a delay in seeing accurate polling data may have been responsible for Biden delaying his decision to withdraw. So he may consider this more democratically or politically valid.

      Some of this really does tend towards “rehashing…” which probably isn’t productive. Here’s a thought that might be instructive about some of our differences:

      Don’t we expect leaders to lead, or something? Sometimes you need to stand on  ten toes to the ground and push for what’s right even if polls suggest it won’t be easy.

      My basic answer to this is…a kind of no. We elect representatives because this is a representative democracy. Of course the language here (and trend towards moral analysis) is part of politics, and elitism and moral correction is part of the design of our representative democracy.  But I think we’re starting to lose the balance on this, and it’s part of how our democracy is slowly declining – from the bottom up and top down.

      Reply
    281. 281.

      Marc

      May 18, 2025 at 4:09 pm

      @Jay: There is a German Documentary Investigation I am waiting for, when it’s subtitled into English. It covers an 8 year “Op”, lead by Putin directly, to target Silicon Valley with disinfo and manipulation, that was wildly successful.

      I don’t disagree that there may have been efforts, but having worked at my first Silicon Valley startup in 1982, I’ll suggest nicely that the place was always home to a kind of libertarian authoritarianism based on “merit”, as determined by rich white men.  Remember, Silicon Valley’s founding father was William Shockley, a brilliant physicist/engineer (inventor of the transistor), as well as a eugenicist and racist.  He has a lot of followers.

      Reply
    282. 282.

      Jay

      May 18, 2025 at 4:11 pm

      @Baud:

      The transcript was.

      President Joe Biden claimed Executive Privledge over the recording.

      DJTdiot’s Admin selective released clips to the Usual Suspects, let it fester, and then, when “called on it” released the full recording.

      Reply
    283. 283.

      The Audacity of Krope

      May 18, 2025 at 4:12 pm

      @Bupalos: People didn’t want Biden as the candidate as the deadline for something else to happen approached. This was measured by polls,

      Those same polls said people didn’t want Trump as a candidate and that people wanted someone younger.

      Obama, shamefully, dove into “Trump so old” as the crux of his campaigning for Harris.

      And yet…

      Shorter version: Polls ain’t shit.

      Addendum: Also take your own advice about listening to others. Arguing polls to someone explicitly saying leaders should stand up for what’s right regardless of polls is just talking past that person.

      Reply
    284. 284.

      lowtechcyclist

      May 18, 2025 at 4:14 pm

      @Sure Lurkalot: ​
       

      it’s pretty remarkable how the Democratic Party is self-flagellating more in 2025 after swapping out their candidate and losing the popular vote by 1.5% than republicans did in 2021 after losing the popular vote by 4.5% and inciting an insurrection.

      It drives me nuts that it’s still going on. Of course there was a lot of “how did we fuck this up?” talk in between the election and January 20, but when DOGE almost immediately put USAID through the wood chipper, and followed up with another government agency seemingly every day or two, you’d think that would have changed the subject, even if all they could say about this sudden barrage was, “WTF?! Holy shit!”

      And of course, now after four freaking months of Administration atrocities, who gives a flying fuck about last year?

      Reply
    285. 285.

      Baud

      May 18, 2025 at 4:14 pm

      @Jay:

      Thanks. Too lazy to research something that’s largely irrelevant to me except as test to see which Dem pols are tough.

      Reply
    286. 286.

      The Audacity of Krope

      May 18, 2025 at 4:16 pm

      @lowtechcyclist: who gives a flying fuck about last year?

      Less about last year and more about a decades-long pattern of weak behavior of which last July was one of the most extreme examples.

      Reply
    287. 287.

      satby

      May 18, 2025 at 4:16 pm

      @Jay: emptywheel is exactly correct. And people keep getting derailed anyway.

      Reply
    288. 288.

      Jay

      May 18, 2025 at 4:17 pm

      @Marc:

      You have the MOTU “leaders” of Silicon Valley reposting ruZZian disinfo in real time now, as fast as it comes out.

      Reply
    289. 289.

      Geminid

      May 18, 2025 at 4:24 pm

      From Israeli journalist Noga Tarnopolsky:

      BREAKING: Under massive US pressure, Netanyahu announced to his security cabinet tonight that humanitarian aid to the Gaza Strip would resume effective immediately. National Security Minister Itamar Ben-Gvir’s demand for a vote was rejected.

      Israel suspended aid shipments to the Gaza Strip in early March. It’s night time there now, but we should know this time tomorrow if aid shipments are being made.

      Negotiations for a ceasefire are still ongoing, with no result. Axios’s Barak Ravid’s latest report is titled, “U.S. presses Israel and Hamas to accept and updated offer for ceasefire.”

      https://www.axios.com/2025/05/18/gaza-ceasefire-hamas-trump

      Reply
    290. 290.

      different-church-lady

      May 18, 2025 at 4:25 pm

      @satby: ​Fuckin’ catnip.

      Reply
    291. 291.

      different-church-lady

      May 18, 2025 at 4:28 pm

      @lowtechcyclist: ​What’s mindboggling is how just how bad they’ve let themselves be gaslit. It’s never “what went wrong”, it’s “what did we do wrong?” They’re so willing to lead with “We’re a bunch of fuck ups!” You tell someone you’re a fuck up often enough, people will start to believe you. They’ve internalized all the attacks to the point that they have no other language.

      Reply
    292. 292.

      Marc

      May 18, 2025 at 4:29 pm

      @Jay:  Yeah, but that’s not the first time the SV and its funky communication tools (along with late night radio) flooded us with disinfo, remember the 9/11 Truthers?  UFO conspiracies?  Tony Robbins, EST, and related “self-help” movements?  Scientology?  Not much manipulation needed.

      Reply
    293. 293.

      lowtechcyclist

      May 18, 2025 at 4:30 pm

      @Miss Bianca: ​
       

      Yes, I don’t notice a sudden big call to boycott Springsteen, burn his CDs, or attempt to hound him from public life for his remarks; unlike what happened to, say, the (Dixie) Chicks.

      I’m sure gender has nothing to do with the difference.//

      I won’t say gender has nothing to do with the difference, but in 2003, the Chicks were only just breaking into the larger mainstream from the C&W market, while Springsteen’s been one of the biggest stars of rock/pop/whatever for the past half-century. It’s fifty years too late to marginalize Springsteen.

      Reply
    294. 294.

      Bupalos

      May 18, 2025 at 4:31 pm

      @The Audacity of Krope: Yes I ran out of time on that last point, but was adding it. That is indeed where we probably most disagree.

      I think there is a growing imbalance in this conception of the job of representation that lies near the heart of democratic decline in the US. Democratic politics on the whole simply can’t be about moral conflict outsourced to politicians. That imbalance is a recipe for what we’re seeing, a capacity-draining divide where the language of opponents and interests becomes the language of enemies and values. I think that ultimately leads to authoritarianism by creating an identity-bound administrative paralysis. Enter the strong man of morals to push through for the good against the evil.

      Reply
    295. 295.

      different-church-lady

      May 18, 2025 at 4:32 pm

      @Marc: ​You take years of “CAN’T TRUST MAINSTREAM MEDIA” and mix it with Zuckerberg’s “All other information will flow through our corrupt algorithm” and that’s two shitty tastes that taste catastrophic together. Yeah, it’s always been there, but it’s now turbocharged.

      Reply
    296. 296.

      different-church-lady

      May 18, 2025 at 4:33 pm

      So hey, while we’re on this topic, Biden just announced he has prostate cancer. So have tons of fun with your fuckin’ rehash.

      Reply
    297. 297.

      Baud

      May 18, 2025 at 4:36 pm

      @different-church-lady:

      Correct. Republicans deserve to be in control.

       

       

      @different-church-lady:

      Best wishes to him.

      Reply
    298. 298.

      The Audacity of Krope

      May 18, 2025 at 4:41 pm

      @different-church-lady: That’s sad. I hope he gets through it or at least stays comfortable as possible.

      Reply
    299. 299.

      apocalipstick

      May 18, 2025 at 4:43 pm

      @Glory b:

      Don’t have to be a lawyer to be a judge.

      Reply
    300. 300.

      Marc

      May 18, 2025 at 4:48 pm

      @different-church-lady: Yeah, it’s always been there, but it’s now turbocharged.

      Of course it is, like when we all watched movies and TV. Now we look at our phones and computers. What’s really changed is the audience specific targeting of messaging.  The advertising folks always wanted that, it just couldn’t be done until the internet and mega-scale social media.  Now we’re surprised and upset that people are using these marketing tools to quite efficiently push products and ideas that some of us don’t want ;)

      Reply
    301. 301.

      PatD

      May 18, 2025 at 5:01 pm

      @RevRick: We’ve seen with politicians like Krysten Sinema that we can replace politicians who fail to hold the respect of their own core voters. Sure, it’s a tough district but Golden brought this on himself. He’ll get a challenger and if he loses then his replacement can figure out how to win and retain the district.

      Maybe there’s someone else who can play the game a little better.

      Reply
    302. 302.

      different-church-lady

      May 18, 2025 at 5:03 pm

      @Marc: ​Yet everyone keeps acting like it’s a big mystery.

      Reply
    303. 303.

      dnfree

      May 18, 2025 at 5:15 pm

      @Gretchen: Freedom at Midnight is the classic.

      Reply
    304. 304.

      They Call Me Noni

      May 18, 2025 at 6:12 pm

      @prostratedragon: Yes, most definitely.

      Reply
    305. 305.

      They Call Me Noni

      May 18, 2025 at 6:33 pm

      @lowtechcyclist: I don’t think we fucked this up either.  Democrats ran an educated, qualified and intelligent woman of color.  The Republicans ran a demented felon who did his level best to steal an election and peddled lies among a shit ton of other atrocities.  Our economy was the envy of the entire world.  If our collective electorate did their job and were just the least bit educated and informed it should have been a slam dunk.

      Gotta keep moving forward.  Like I tell my great-granddaughter when she walks into something, “look where you’re going, not where you’ve been.”

      Reply
    306. 306.

      Philbert

      May 18, 2025 at 7:14 pm

      @Melancholy Jaques: Thanks!, the Carroll family history was quite a rabbit hole of Colonial history.

      Reply
    307. 307.

      Kayla Rudbek

      May 18, 2025 at 11:31 pm

      @Marc: Silicon Valley is definitely a boys’ club (it’s one of the only two places where I have ever seen the gyms advertising in the women’s locker room for women to take ballroom/salsa/swing dancing classes; normally they need to advertise to the men).

      Reply
    308. 308.

      Ella in New Mexico

      May 19, 2025 at 9:17 am

      @Ella:  sorry, for some reason my post above dropped my full nym

      Trump dissed Tayor Swift AND Bruce Springsteen in one week and as a die hard Boss fan since the 70’s who has a new found adoration for Tay since 2020, I have one thing to say.

      When you come for these two their fans-who reside on both sides of the aisle, will NOT put up with your shit, you little bitch.

      Reply

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