One of our commenters sent me a link to an article on Raw Story, which I appreciated because I never go to Raw Story. They won’t even let me see an article with my ad blocker on, and their style with all the ads and flashing, etc is an assault on my eyes, and my brain!
Still, I can see that they raise an excellent point, even as I am appalled by parts of the article. h/t Jackie
Here’s the excellent point.
Rep. Sylvester Turner (D-TX), 70, Rep. Raúl Grijalva (D-AZ), 77, and Rep. Gerry Connolly (D-VA), 75, all died since March, the latest being Connolly, who died Wednesday and was the top Democrat on the House Oversight Committee. Eight Democrats have died since November 2022, according to Axios.
This is also noteworthy.
Young House Democrats demanded what Axios called an “age reckoning” on Thursday after a third Democrat died while in office, with some remarking that President Donald Trump’s “Big, Beautiful Bill” passed through the chamber this week, and the “difference is the number of members who passed away.”
Here’s where it starts to make me crazy.
- “Young House Democrats” is capitalized. Is that an organization? Who are the members? Is that a Dem caucus?
- “according to the report”. What report, no report was referenced before that. Just a vague mention of Axios.
- This feels like pure gossip and shit-stirring. No one goes on the record.
- Is this article a reference to David Hogg?
Young Democrats demanded their older counterparts take note — and make moves, according to the report. The party’s age was “keenly felt” on Thursday as House Republicans passed their controversial tax bill by just one vote, the report said.
Several Democrats pointed to the vacancies created by the deaths as a factor.
“You see where we are, we can’t afford to lose anymore members. … We’re down three people because they passed away,” one lawmaker told Axios as the House voted on the bill.
Another told the outlet: “The tragic reality is, when … this vote passes and the difference is the number of members who passed away this Congress, I think it’s going to really infuriate many of our supporters.”
“Some folks have given their life to this place, and we’re so grateful and commend them for it — you don’t have to die in this place,” the first House Democrat said.
Another Democrat told the outlet, “we just look so f—ing out of touch,” with yet another saying they think they can “force a conversation.”
So yes, it’s absolutely noteworthy if this bill wouldn’t have passed if the Democratic members hadn’t passed.
As a party, why can’t we have a constructive conversation about this? Let’s not throw out the baby with the bathwater!
Can we have a constructive conversation about this aging issue (in the House and the Senate) on Balloon Juice?
PA Supreme Court Election Angel Match & Action Opportunities
goldengirl
I never post but this narrative about not having these deaths would have stopped the bill is making me crazy. These deaths are tragic and “could have” affected the outcome, but I don’t think it would have. I believe that the bill would have passed regardless of these deaths because Republicans are cowards. To me the reason the vote was so close is because they knew they had the votes and allowed some members to vote “no”. Why didn’t the reps in vulnerable districts vote “no”? Because they are cowards and traitors is why it passed.
I agree we need to have a conversation about age, but that’s separate from this.
Another Scott
Fritschner says the deaths didn’t affect the outcome in the House. The monsters had the votes (they would have found a way to convert enough of the hold-outs if needed). I think he’s right.
Deaths in office aren’t that unusual.
Yes, in principle people in Congress should have a lower average age. Lots of things would be better, in principle, than they are now. But life and electoral politics isn’t ruled by abstract idealized principles.
I don’t think average age of our Representatives is a top 10 Problem, myself. If people want younger representatives, they can vote for them. There isn’t some evil shadowy cabal keeping the average age up – people there won their seat in elections. (To be honest, an awful lot of this age-ist stuff that keeps bubbling up recently sounds like yet more Lefty McLeftish agitation that is an attempt to weaken the Democratic party. You want younger Democrats? Support younger Democrats. Don’t beat up the Party. Otherwise, …)
YMMV, and I’m sure does for many here. ;-)
Thanks for boosting the PA Supreme Court voter drive activities downstairs. It’s important!
Best wishes,
Scott.
ExPatExDem
In the case of the unfortunate Gerry Connolly, the optics couldn’t be worse. Pelosi used all her influence to block AOC in favor of a 74 year old with cancer who didn’t even last 6 months in his position.
Never should have happened. Might have even hastened his demise.
ArchTeryx
Reminder: They had 5 votes to spare even without any of the deaths. That’s more than enough to hand out a couple Golden Tickets and still pass the bill. They’ve already passed horrible bills with a full Democratic caucus, mostly because the Krazy Konfederate Kaukus finally learned to take “yes” for an answer. Reminder: That’s why so many bills failed with Trump 1. The fascist nutbags sunk them, the Ds had no power to do so. Now they’re falling in line because the Orange God-Emperor is their Pied Piper, and we have the votes to stop zilch.
In the meantime, Erik “Son of Erik” Loomis rides his hobbyhorse across the desert screaming “Gerontocracy!!” over and over and over and over again.
SW
Unless you are financially required to work once you turn 70 you need to begin to put the lion’s share of your attention into aging gracefully. Focus on maintaining your physical capabilities, self care and keeping up your property. No matter your profession, realize that no one is indispensable. Savor every moment because there really is no telling when it is going to end.
feebog
Let’s start with a comparison of ages between the two parties in the House. My bet is they are almost identical when the dust settles. That said, I think the Democratic party could use a youth turnover but that is more for viewpoint than preserving the herd number.
comrade scotts agenda of rage
@goldengirl:
Exactly. I was trying to write something along these lines but having trouble articulating it.
Pastor Mike would have gotten this bill to pass. Would three more Dem votes have made his life harder? Sure. Is that a good thing? Sure. But at the end of the day…what you said.
Manyakitty
@feebog: for example see Grassley, Chuck.
Also, too, I never click on Raw Story links because I think they’re a sketchy aggregator and their articles are empty click bait. YMMV
comrade scotts agenda of rage
@feebog:
https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2025/01/16/age-and-generation-in-the-119th-congress-somewhat-younger-with-fewer-boomers-and-more-gen-xers/
You’re right, there’s practically no difference, 57.6 (D) vs 57.5 (R).
Swiftfox
RawStory is the equivalent of MSNBC. Rectification of Names has them on their running list of sites and I’ve learned not to fall for it.
WaterGirl
@comrade scotts agenda of rage: If those are averages, I would like to see the median numbers. I would bet that the median would be higher than that, but I would be happy to be proven wrong.
WaterGirl
@Swiftfox: What outfit is “Rectification of Names”/
kindness
Lawyers, Guns & Money frequently covers aging Democrats. Except there, it always devolves into a food fight.
Suzanne
@feebog:
Agree.
Dem voters are younger than GOP voters, on average, so it’s good to have our voters well-represented. And, for the health of the Dem Party as an organization, it is good to be intentional about identifying young talent and growing their careers. Ideally, it would be a fluid cycle with newcomers and mid-career people coming into more power/influential roles, and retirements.
But it wouldn’t have changed this outcome specifically.
Melancholy Jaques
@ExPatExDem:
Completely agree on that Oversight Committee episode. Rest his soul, but Connolly should have taken himself out of the running.
It’s a discussion for us to have, but I don’t want it to turn into the same old “AOC vs The Establishment” argument because that’s not exactly the issue.
We have to consider the value of tenure & expertise along with a need for fresh faces & voices.
randy khan
Anybody who thinks that the bill would have failed if Rep. Connolly or the others had not died isn’t thinking right. The only way that bill would have failed would have been if there hadn’t been a deal basically acceptable to both ends of the Republican caucus. The two no votes, the guy who voted present, and the two people who didn’t vote were given hall passes. If their votes had been needed, then they would have voted for the bill.
comrade scotts agenda of rage
@WaterGirl:
Oops, those are the median numbers.
randy khan
@feebog:
They are within a tenth of a year of each other in average age. (Something like 56 or 57 years old, although I forget the exact number.)
The big thing that happened in the Dem caucus was after the 2018 election, when there was huge turnover in top leadership that dropped the average age of that group by like 15 or 20 years. And I remember people complaining that it wasn’t enough, which was nuts.
pat
I’m sorry that I don’t know how to link, but Digby’s Hullabaloo has a piece up right now about how AOC should be the voice of the Dems moving forward, but for some reason that is not happening….
SiubhanDuinne
Re the capitalisation of “Young House Democrats”: Young is the first word in the sentence, so it is capitalised (unless you’re Jeff Tiedrich). House refers to a formal body, the House of Representatives, so it is capitalised. And Democrats refers to members of a formal body, the Democratic Party, so is also capitalised. If the phrase had come in the middle of the sentence (e.g., “According to several young House Democrats…,”) there wouldn’t have been the ambiguity IMO.
Shane in SLC
WG, you’re right about Raw Story. But in that phrase, Young is capitalized because it starts the sentence; House is capitalized because it refers to the House of Representatives; and Democrats is capitalized because they’re members of the party, not just believers in democracy.
laura
Voters elect and often continue to re-elect their representatives. My rep is old and she entered office when her husband, Robert Matsui died in office. She has been an excellent representative in both bringing money to our district to shore up and maintain our waterways. Fun fact, Sacramento is the second most likely flood zone after New Orleans and has a history of catastrophic floods due to the confluence of two massive waterways; the American River and the Sacramento, as well as the not infrequent pineapple express from the Pacific Ocean. Doris Matsui’s also got really effective constituent services and I’ve been directly on the receiving end and am grateful for her staffers. Also, she’s old. She’s pragmatic af, she remains a workhorse, she is not a showboat. Someday she’ll decide if she retires or steps aside but I doubt it’ll be because some anonymous young from somewhere else demands she yeet off to the cornfield.
Ageism and ableism are ways to fracture the party just like racism and misogyny and purity tests- it’s bullshit. I’d rather we fight republicans, but that’s just my opinion.
Frank Wilhoit
@WaterGirl:
Yastreblyansky’s blog. Very worthwhile.
schrodingers_cat
It would have passed. From what I understand, there were several Rs who voted present, they could have voted for the bill. STOP BLAMING Ds for WHAT Rs DO
We are not in the majority
And all these ageist fuckers are always mum about one of the oldest sitting senators with a history of heart disease. Not one word about how he should retire. Even when he is nursing his grievances against the party for failing to win the nomination, twice.
JonW
@WaterGirl: https://yastreblyansky.blogspot.com/ and https://yastreblyansky.substack.com/
schrodingers_cat
@Swiftfox: Yep RawStory is a propaganda outlet.
RevRick
@kindness: Yes, they noted that the Democrats in the House and Senate have more elders than the Republicans. I think it’s important that our representatives recognize their mortality. More importantly that they recognize the fact that no one is indispensable. I’ve visited more than my share of graveyards in my years as pastor, with some dating as far back as the late 1700s. And those cemeteries are filled with the graves of people who were believed to be indispensable in their time. And yet the world went on.
Ruckus
Remember that if the voters in a district like or even tolerate a candidate they will likely win. For most voters what we know about a candidate is what we look for. Meaning that we often do not/cannot know a lot about a person. They seem on our side of the issues – against someone not, they get the vote, because most people do not follow politics at the well informed level. They are in our party, they are running, vote. Now if they are HORRIBLE or very good, most will have some concept of that. And HORRIBLE will still win sometimes. In other words it’s often a roll of the dice. And I doubt that is ever going to change. And it’s how someone like djt wins the highest office. Not everyone is looking for the best candidate – some are looking for the worst.
Lapassionara
@SW: I disagree. Not everyone ages the same way. Some need to retire early. Others are sharp well into their 80’s.
Gloria DryGarden
Plenty of older congresspersons and statesmen have been very effective. They have wisdom and expertise, experience, and less fear. And might be terrific at being tough, badass.
President Biden was in most ways a very effective president, for all four years, on the heels of a very difficult situation. He knew enough about how things worked that he was able to set a lot of things to rights, turn things better. Would you take that away?
We could list a bunch more. Angus king, pelosi. John Lewis was still serving when he passed away, wasn’t he?
no we should not, NOT chase out the folks aged 70-80 with a bunch of shoulds, to get in a bunch of freshman unknowns. Like the delicious democrats, sinema, and now Gallegos, kind of playing to both sides .
The older ones may still have lots to give, and be very beneficial in office. Who can say when someone’s health will take a turn, get cancer, and so on. It’s just another excuse for infighting. If we make people wrong, and bring them down with smear campaigns about their age, that’s a bit reminiscent of how low others have gone. Didn’t Raskin continue working all during his cancer?
yes, it sucks when someone dies in office, it’s a tragedy perhaps, and it’s hard when we’re a minority. bring in younger folks to run, getting the age range wider, that’s fine too. But there’s no need To write people off over ageism.
Melancholy Jaques
@kindness:
Some of the authors there do not seem to realize that they are not exactly young.
Gloria DryGarden
@Lapassionara: exactly. Thank you.
Glory b
@ExPatExDem: Maybe it was because he was rated the most effective member of several congresses while she frankly seems to be more interested in being an internet influence and has yet to pass a bill.
catclub
@SW:
lawnmowing? No thanks.
brendancalling
L to the O to the L!
I used to work at RS covering daytime news, so this is all very funny to me. My job was to catch a politician or Important Person saying something dumb, and then writing an article like “KA-BLAMMO! Senator Blowhard Goes Down in Flames on CNN!!!1!”
“This feels like pure gossip and shit-stirring. No one goes on the record.” That’s basically the RS model. They don’t so much “report” news as the “mine and aggregate” news. This means weaker fact-checking and weaker copy-editing/editorial oversight because the overriding goal is to be “first.” So that’s why they mention a report but don’t actually link to the report or explain what’s in it. That’s why they mention “Young House Democrats” (which doesn’t seem to be a caucus or anything). Haste and laziness.
It’s such a crap publication, run by crappy people. Whenever I see someone here write about how they “miss T-Bogg,” I grind my teeth. I have nothing—NOTHING—good to say about THAT guy. He was a royal prick and a bully, especially to our younger women writers. In fact upper management in general was total trash.
whydirt
1) these Dem deaths in Congress probably didn’t affect the chances of this specific bill from passing
2) As long as I’ve been politically active (since Bush the Younger in 2000), Dems in general have been terrible at mentoring young leadership and turning over the reigns to a new generation. I think this is honestly a big part of why the Dem brand is in the toilet right now. Almost all of their leadership is old and increasingly out of touch with young people in terms of daily life.
MoCaAce
@kindness:
Give it time…
Ruckus
@RevRick:
I served in the USN and saw people that should never be in charge of anything become in charge because they were there. And things still worked. Often could have been better but still – worked. It’s humanity, some are good, some are not even close and the middle is the middle. The good learn what not to do, the bad almost always will be and the middle is, well the middle. Could be better, could be worse. And it will often amaze us because what we knew would be one way – turns out the opposite. Whata ya gunna do, it’s humanity.
Melancholy Jaques
@pat:
The “should be the voice” is a matter of opinion, I guess, but the “is the voice” is kinda sorta true because who else is getting through to people?
Glory b
@pat: If people consider her to be that than she is. Perception is reality.
No coronation necessary.
jlowe
Mike Konczal writes a review of “Abundance” on the blog “Democracy, A Journal of Ideas” noting that the current crisis in the Democratic Party has roots going back to the environmental and good governance movements in the 1960s and 1970s. The liberal criticisms of the administrations of the Kennedy and Johnson era – think “Silent Spring”, “Unsafe at Any Speed” and “The Death and Life of Great American Cities” – not only inspired the regulatory reforms throughout the 1970s – think National Highway Safety Act, Clean Air Act, Clean Water Act, Safe Drinking Water Act, Resource Conservation and Recovery Act, and the Superfund – but also gave voice to the Reagan Revolution of the 1980s which would start the unraveling of these reforms over the next 40 years. Konczal points to “Public Citizens” written in 2021 by Paul Sabin, as the wellspring for this idea. The gerontocrats currently running the Democratic Party grew up in these generations, filled with the arrogance of the time about what the state could accomplish combined with fighting the rearguard action against the GOP to preserve what had been gained. In addition to succumbing to the allure of power from being in Washington, DC for a long time, these folks have nourished the conceit they are the only ones to reverse the decaying of New Deal ideals. Thus, their iron grip on the Democratic Party.
I despair at a solution beyond Planck’s principle (a new scientific truth emerges only when its opponents die out). Maybe things will hold together long enough for the new truth to emerge.
I’ve reserved “Abundance” from the library and look forward to hate-reading it.
goldengirl
@Another Scott: I agree 100%
Gloria DryGarden
@laura: you said it better than I did. Amen.
UncleEbeneezer
Age-based discrimination of grown adults is not Progressive. Full stop. Term limits are fine (though I don’t really love them either) but obsessing over and policing peoples’ age is really something we need to get away from.
pieceofpeace
OT – here’s a mood enhancing article highlighting a bear cub that hasn’t had RFKjr run into him:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/2025/05/22/bear-cub-costume-san-diego-humane-society/
Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony
@RevRick: I do think if you are above 70 with serious health issues, you need to retire. If you refuse, you ought to be primaried. If you’re healthy, it’s not an issue. I do think it is more of an issue for unhealthy elderly than younger people with health issues, because younger people have a better chance of recovery.
New Deal democrat
@randy khan:
Exactly. The deaths on the Democratic side did not change the outcome for this bill.
That being said, I anm persuaded that, especially after RBG, absent extraordinary circumstances no Democrat who is age 75 or over in office should run for re-election. Name or mentor your replacement! The odds of a death or a sudden decline in capacity are just too great. This especially applies where GOP governors can name the replacement or set the date for the special election.
UncleEbeneezer
@laura: Well said. And in the bigger picture, age-based discrimination is still a huge problem in the real world. Every one of us over 50 (maybe even 40) knows how much harder it would be for us to get hired again if we lost our jobs or tried to change careers. Employers have all sorts of ways they can discriminate against older applicants/candidates and this is the sort of anti-worker bullshit that the Left should be fighting at every step, especially in a world where so many of us HAVE TO work longer due to a whole host of economic factors.
goldengirl
@comrade scotts agenda of rage: TY. Lots of others here are saying this, too. Another way for these cowardly media outlets to criticize Dems. There’s plenty to criticize, but this isn’t one of them.
whydirt
@Gloria DryGarden:
Biden was great on lots of policy but almost everything he accomplished is getting ripped to shreds as we speak. I don’t think he’s a great president because he missed the mark on the two biggest issues of his term:
1) Not taking the prosecution of Trump and Jan 6 more seriously, especially in terms of getting things wrapped up before 2024. Nominating Garland and then not removing him once it was clear that he was dragging his feet is unforgivable.
2) Not bowing out of the 2024 election earlier. Even if he could handle the day-to-day job of being POTUS, he was clearly not up to the task of Running For President as a job. It doesn’t matter how unfair the media and others were being toward him because that was just part of the landscape and Biden should’ve been smart enough to account for that.
WaterGirl
@comrade scotts agenda of rage: Interesting.
comrade scotts agenda of rage
@jlowe:
Some reviews worth reading, probably better than actually wasting your time reading it:
https://www.bostonreview.net/articles/the-real-path-to-abundance/
https://prospect.org/economy/2024-11-26-abundance-agenda-neoliberalisms-rebrand/
The last 40 years have seen a reversal of the 130 year historical trend of increasing equality in the US. The Abundance Agenda focuses on deregulation and efficiency. Zero downward distribution of wealth.
It’s just early aughts neoliberalism with new verbiage.
Abundance “liberals” exist to put a nicer face on the tech billionaire agenda. They whine about insufficient loyalty from the left all day but they casually chat with Thiel protégés like Solana, Yglesias even did a fundraiser with Trump supporting billionaire Andreessen.
Gin & Tonic
In my experience, no.
Gloria DryGarden
@Another Scott: I finally put a donation in, which gets multiplied to become $108. People who pray or chant with a mala know there are 108 beads on their mala. So I am converting my dollars loosely into prayers. I feel divinely good about it.
probably too woo woo for some of the folks here. All the help we can get.
Soprano2
Didn’t read the thread, but my $0.02 is that if you know you have a cancer or other serious disease that’s going to be fatal or is probably fatal, you shouldn’t run for re-election. It’s not just that you might die, the treatment is going to be hard on you and that means you’ll probably miss a lot of votes. To me that’s not a good way to represent your constituents. Note I said “liable to be fatal”, which isn’t the same as having cancer. I know it’s a judgment call, but if you’re 74 and know you have a fatal cancer diagnosis you probably have better things to do with your remaining time than being in Congress. IMHO.
Cliosfanboy
@brendancalling:
Awww, damn. I really liked Tbogg’s old blog.
Raw Story can be fun for red meat, but I never forward links because their headlines are misleading crap. I also can not stand Thom Hartman. He’s a LOUSY historian. A couple of weeks ago, he claimed republicans opposed the 19th Amendment when it was passed. Um, no. A quick Google search shows that a higher percentage of republicans than Democrats voted for it, and the opposition was mostly in the southern Solid South. Ugh.
Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony
@Soprano2: We are on the same page.
Barney
@Shane in SLC: It’s Raw Story’s title that is annoyingly capitalized: “‘You don’t have to die here’: Young House Dems demand ‘reckoning’ for aging party”
I would not use a capital after a colon, and we can see that they’re not using the convention of capitalizing all major words in a title.
WG says ” no report was referenced before that. Just a vague mention of Axios”; “age reckoning” is a hyperlink to the Axios article, so underlined, and I think people familiar with all internet conventions would understand that to be “the report”.
The anonymity of the young House Dems is due to Axios not naming them. I suppose Raw Story could have just decided to ignore the story because of that, but they’re a commercial operation, not a journalism school.
UncleEbeneezer
@Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony: It’s not a question of “need to” it’s a question of “should be forced to.” We could, in theory, have politicians need to pass physicals, submit clean bills of health etc., but that would be a very tricky thing to implement (who decides? where’s the line we draw? etc.) and it would guaranteed be weaponized against Black People, Women, Overweight People etc., in all the ways we are supposed to oppose.
Gloria DryGarden
@Gin & Tonic:
so far, so good.
But a breath of fresh air, that you make this point. Because, jackals..
____
I wish I could figure out how to put one quote box around a block of text that already has a quote box, so I end up with one inside the other…
Soprano2
Hard agree, we need to have experienced people in Congress. Youth isn’t always the best thing to have, because that can also mean inexperience. Look how David Hogg stepped in it recently.
Gloria DryGarden
@comrade scotts agenda of rage: thx for these summary/ review links.
Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony
@UncleEbeneezer: Its not that hard to draw the line. Do you have a serious illness and what is your median survival time for that illness? How difficult is the treatment? If your estimated survival time for that serious illness is in single digits and/or treatment will result in multiple long absences or diminished capacity to work full-time for months, then you fail your health exam and you don’t get to run for office. It is a real problem that they conceal this.
Suzanne
@Soprano2:
I think this is true at any age, honestly. If you aren’t going to be able to perform the job well, and that includes a lot of the “public performance” PR aspects, it’s time to pass that torch.
hrprogressive
The reason we can’t have a conversation about this is because too many enablers screech “AGEISM” when it is dared to be noted that all the Olds are the reason we don’t get any progress.
I can’t say for certain every single Dem who has passed away was necessarily rich, powerful, and didn’t want to upset the apple cart with their Donors.
But Olds like Schumer, Pelosi, Durbin, et al, absolutely are, and I know Durbin said he was retiring but still.
The fact that it’s 2025 and most power and wealth is still held by Silent Gens to Boomers is fucking disgusting, but we’re not allowed to talk about it because it might come across as being mean to old people?
Mandatory retirement ages. Term limits.
Stop hoarding wealth and power forever and give the rest of a chance to do so before this space rock becomes uninhabitable.
New Deal democrat
@Soprano2: The reason I see it differently is that, before age 75, if you are healthy now you are very likely to be healthy 1 year from now. After age 75 it is more of a crapshoot.
Life expectancy tables suggest that for each year after age 75, over the next 5 years about 6% will die, I.e., about a 30% chance of dying before age 80 – let alone the chances of big disability.
Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony
At the very least, they should have to get a health exam and make the results of that exam public. That way voters can consider that as part of the criteria for fitness for office.
schrodingers_cat
@hrprogressive: It is ageism and white privilege with a generous topping of hypocrisy.
Because I have never heard you or any other self anointed progressive ask the oldest senator who is also older than Biden to step down
And he has a history of heart disease.
Randal Sexton
The most important quality I want to see in Democrats now is their FIGHT. This is bigger than age criteria for me, though all things being equal I would take a younger fighter over an older one. But the Dems who lack that FIGHT quality are useless.
Cliosfanboy
@Soprano2:
Yeah, but there’s a 50+ year gap between him and the oldsters.
prostratedragon
This week’s CBC [Congressional Black Caucus] roundup on dailykos includes a profile of Rep. Clyburn and links to an interview with R.S. Martin in which he addresses the David Hogg matter.
schrodingers_cat
@Randal Sexton: But fight whom? Other Ds like David Hogg wants to do?
AnonPhenom
@feebog:
Senators over 80: 3 R, 3 D
Senators over 75: 3 R, 11 D
Reps over 80: 3 R, 12 D
Reps over 75: 10 R, 29 D
eclare
Gorgeous photo today! Where is “in the HC”?
Another Scott
@Soprano2: “Fresh faces” of any age can be problematic. Look at Donnie in 2015-2016. He could say anything he wanted and nobody could point to his voting record on anything, so nobody really knew his thought process when it came to competing interests. :-/
That’s, in my view, one of my biggest benefits of electoral experience. People have had to make difficult choices, and explain those choices to voters afterwards. Because life is change, new problems and new issues and new choices always happen. Almost nobody was worried about a global pandemic in 2016 when it came to figure out who to vote for… :-/
Yeah, people have to start somewhere in electoral politics. But it’s usually a dangerous leap of faith to vote for people without that in important offices.
John Quincy Adams served 18 years in the House after he was President. He died in office there, at age 80.
Anyway, as always, the details matter. So hard and fast rules in politics can be a trap.
FWIW.
Thanks.
Best wishes,
Scott.
Suzanne
@Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony: I don’t know if there’s any way of making a rule around health exams or a mandatory retirement age. IMO, it has to be more of a norm. And it isn’t just about retirements. Healthy organizations that plan ahead are always thinking about growing their best people. That might manifest as giving a leadership opportunity or a high-profile assignment to a younger member, rather than a pure seniority system.
I also will push back a bit on some of the assertions that it’s “ageist” for younger people to want some representation that is similar in age. It is pretty normal to want to see oneself represented. It’s why having people of different races, genders, etc. is a big deal and a good thing. There is a diversity of viewpoints and styles that come with age. And, like, we have recognized the value of youth and freshness before….. Kennedy, Clinton, Obama spring to mind.
hrprogressive
@schrodingers_cat:
All federal officers over the age of 70 should no longer hold said office regardless of race, gender, or any other characteristic.
Happy?
schrodingers_cat
This ageist nonsense is all really about white people especially men wanting to be in charge and not liking that they have to share leadership positions with Jewish, Black and other minorities. DSA left’s racism wears economic justice clothes and has a few non-white tokens.
There is a reason Bernie Sanders struggled to get non-white votes in both his presidential runs. We saw through him.
Gloria DryGarden
@Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony: like trump did?
didnt.
@hrprogressive: agreed with the whole discussion, pretty much , until your comment. Such a collection of judgemental subjectivity, which does not feel constructive. “Enablers, it’s why we didn’t, fucking disgusting.”
I disagree with you. I hope you’ll go back to read and reconsider the previous 63 comments, esp #22.
and if not, well, you were predicted..
WTFGhost
Honestly, if RBG didn’t cause people to recognize the importance of not dying in office, then I’m not sure we can force a conversation. But it’s true: if losing democrats caused that monstrosity to avoid being aborted, age has knifed us in the back *far* too many times.
Doug R
@ArchTeryx:
He seemed a bit bent out of shape when I suggested he run.
la caterina
@schrodingers_cat: Agree 100%. Raw Story is also in the habit of predicting the imminent demise of Mango Mussolini because of some remark from a “former prosecutor.” Pure clickbait.
Gloria DryGarden
@Another Scott: this
kindness
Term limits for elected positions suck though. Out here in the great People’s Republic of California, we voted for term limits for Assembly, State Senate and Governor back in 1990. Republicans hated that Willy Brown ran the Assembly like a machine. Enough Democrats got suckered into it that it passed. What happened was all the seasoned reps with institutional memory were forced to retire. The only one’s left with that knowledge was lobbyists and lobbyists power increased many fold. It hurt Democrats in the end.
schrodingers_cat
@ArchTeryx: Is this Loomis person a white Bernie bro?
Snowlan01
I hate to say it, but . . . “sicut erat in principio et nunc et semper et in saecula saeculorum” . . . I don’t know a time in recorded history when younger people didn’t think older people with power should just give it up and let new voices be heard. And the counter argument always has been that age and experience shouldn’t be ignored. . . . The number of stories where “sources” said that Charles, Prince of Wales, thought his mother should retire were legion. And now those same sources are whispering that William, Prince of Wales, thinks the King should retire. Same story; new principal characters. . . This is just an illustration of how universal the generational argument has been. Today its AOC, but if she gains power, there will be a new media darling who looks well on TV (or the internet), and voices will be saying that AOC should just retire for younger and more relevant voices.
WTFGhost
@Gloria DryGarden: I think it’s fine. “Woo!” as an outrush of breath is good, and “woo woo” is fine ,if you need another woo. Just avoid the third – that’s when things go Curly.
Baud
I’m so old I remember when our brand was tarnished because we had too many blue dogs. Most of them were eventually replaced by Republicans and our brand is still tarnished.
I don’t mind having a younger caucus, but I don’t think it’ll fix anything.
I’d prefer to deal with the death issue by having a larger cushion of reps. But I don’t think that’s happening either.
Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony
@kindness: Those term limits were too short. The equivalent of 20 years is better.
eclare
@Suzanne:
In corporate speak, any organization that does not have a succession plan for top officers is derelict in duty to shareholders. Every organization knows this. I never worked in audit, but I would not be surprised if this is a criteria for a clean audit.
It should not be an issue to require this for politicians, at least those in leadership.
brantl
@Melancholy Jaques: they aren’t our representatives either. Funny how those two things go together.
Doug R
@kindness:
Considering the average age of commentors is similar to Ray Stevenson, Andre Braugher, Lance Reddick and James Gandolfini, it seems extremely ironic.
schrodingers_cat
@Baud: This is the path to becoming a permanent minority. A great boon for grifters who prey off our desperation and masquarade as content creators but not the rest of us.
Randal Sexton
@schrodingers_cat: In this time, if a person is spending more time and energy criticizing Dems than criticizing the destruction of our Democracy I dont really think they are Dems. Its a target rich environment for criticizing the despotic corruptors. Focus on that. And dont just criticize- encourage actions. I realize my words are strong, and probably going to create a food fight and pile on of me. Which is why i rarely comment. Oh well.
Baud
@schrodingers_cat:
There’s a good chance we’re already there. It’s why I don’t really care much about these internecine fights. I’m just looking for the D on the ballot. Old, young, centrist, progressive, all the same to me.
brantl
@brendancalling: i’ve missed Tom Baglione ever since he stopped blogging. Your mileage may vary, but I’ll tell you what when he wrote the black called “A womb with a view”, that was one of the best things I ever read, And Snowbilly Snookie? Inspired.
WTFGhost
@whydirt: Both issues that you proclaim Biden bad on, can only be determined “bad” in hindsight. No one could have imagined the SCOTUS would make the President essentially immune to prosecution, by allowing foot dragging at every stage, and allowing so many challenges against the evidence that it will be trivial to call it “political persecution.”
And, no one could have guessed that his first debate performance would cause so many people to freak out so completely.
So you’re blaming Biden, because he didn’t have perfect foresight. Well, no one has perfect foresight.
You’re also implicitly blaming Biden for the wholesale criminalization of the Republican Party USA, and the Republican wing of the SCOTUS.
If RPUSA was sane, Trump couldn’t have stood for re-election. It not only was insane, it was criminally so, insisting against all available evidence that he would be a reasonable President.
And if the SCOTUS wasn’t a wholly owned subsidiary of RPUSA, maybe they wouldn’t have written up such an egregious immunity decision, but, hey, they got their jobs by pledging loyalty, they can’t back out now.
Suzanne
@eclare: Agree. And firms that get top-heavy with leadership often suffer a brain drain when mid-career people who are looking to grow get stymied and they leave, which results in failure of succession. (Ask me how I know.) There has to be a cycle. If we want there to be a functional Democratic Party in 20 years, that has to be a thing.
Gloria DryGarden
@Suzanne: you don’t sound ageist
we need the older ones and the younger ones.
Who can say whether someone is hoarding power, or desiring to serve with their expertise and experience. We’ve seen both happen. Getting clarity on people’s health predictions could lead to useful transparency, or to smear campaigning, infighting, and low vibes. People do seem to vote on the vibes.
Another Scott
@Baud: No matter what, Democrats are always doing it rong. I wonder why that is.
:-/
The Morning Joe guy is pumping up AOC because she’s good TV and he’s a TV guy. Also, it will – regardless of the reality – be used by the other side to reinforce the picture that Democrats Are Far Out Communist Leftist Icky People Who Aren’t Like Us And Hate Real America. So, the RWNJs would love for that to happen, regardless of the merits.
Successful political parties don’t usually take political advice from the other major party.
The House and Senate set their own rules and elect their own leaders. A lot of it is based on glad-handing, being willing to serve as a lightning rod and take lots of arrows in the back for the team, being a powerhouse fundraiser, being in a safe seat, and (especially when in the leadership) maybe being someone who can be painted as representing just about everyone (because being leader means finding ways to get enough on board). “Heartland” is a plus (or used to be). When AOC, or anyone else, gets enough support to take the leadership, that’s fine with me. In the meantime, my kvetching about it [h]as about as much influence as complaining about …
YMMV!
Best wishes,
Scott.
Gloria DryGarden
@Randal Sexton: i appreciate your comment.
Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony
@Gloria DryGarden: Its politics. There will always be smear campaigning. However, as a voter, I really do want more transparency on the health of our leaders.
tobie
Different people age differently. I’m not convinced that youth is always better. There is a value to deep knowledge of the arcane procedures in the House and the Senate and expertise in certain areas.. Say, tax policy. Michael Capuano was the Democrats expert on this. The voters in his district elected Ayanna Pressley. I think the last remaining tax expert on the Democratic side is Richard Neal. We’re going to need that skill to fix the damage the GOP has done. Or, have we decided that Congress members should focus on comms and leave policy making to their staff? I hope not.
Josie
@schrodingers_cat:
I haven’t read the rest of the comments, but I give this one 2 thumbs up.
prostratedragon
Bruce Springsteen is old:
Central Planning
@goldengirl: This 100%. My comment on bluesky to someone who was blaming Jerry was effectively “It’s not the Democrats’ fault Republicans are voting against the USA”
Planetjanet
@Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony: How about letting people make their own medical decisions.
Baud
@Another Scott:
I don’t understand why she needs a formal leadership position to be successful. Did Obama or JFK have one when they were in Congress? I don’t care what the Dems do, but the idea that she can’t be a strong voice unless she has a title seems wrong to me.
Gloria DryGarden
@whydirt: too late now, we can’t fix those things. And he did pick up the pieces and get the country back on its feet. And create a lot of good. I think it’s good we had him. And so what if he was old, he was good. Not perfect. The right man for the time.
never mind that mr headline grabber is crushing all his Cheetos into dust all over us.
sab
@hrprogressive: Term limits are terrible. I live in Ohio and we have had term limits for a generation at the state level and the results are appalling.
Nobody in government knows what they are doing except the lobbyists.
Everyone is looking ahead towards the next office to run for. There are no relationships across the aisle because everyone will soon be gone.
So there is hyper-partisanship, because the only way to get ahead is to be loyal to guys giving out the cash, who are tne lobbyists.
Gloria DryGarden
@Planetjanet: THANK YOU
No One of Consequence
@laura: Fuck yeah.
-NOoC
No One of Consequence
@Gloria DryGarden: Nested quotes would be the work of the devil.
-NOoC
brendancalling
@brantl: Oh, he was a very good blogger, and very funny. But the person was very different from the writer. So much so that I was glad not to have to work with him anymore, and that I haven’t read anything he’s written since my tenure at RS.
brantl
@hrprogressive:
listen to yourself and then figure out why people think you have an ageist problem? I can see you do.
oldgold
This is slightly off topic, but related.
Representative Sylvester Turner, who represented a deep blue Houston District, died March 5 and Governor Abbott intentionally deprived roughly 800,000 Americans of representation for 8 damn months by setting the special election to fill this vacant seat for November 4.
Like so many things – outrageous.
Timill
Sure are…
Josie
@oldgold:
True, and the tragedy is that part of Turner’s district is the Fifth Ward, where much of the population will be devastated by the cut in Snap and Medicaid benefits. They had no rep to defend them from this outcome.
Captain C
@Doug R: He can’t ban people who annoy him from Congress the way he can from LGM.
Suzanne
@Baud:
The leadership position is a sign that she (and by extension, what she represents) is an important and valued part of the Party coalition. That she isn’t an outsider.
There’s some Dems who have a great deal of hostility toward the wing that likes AOC. It would serve us better, IMO, if we brought her fans into the tent.
ExPatExDem
@Glory b: You know what else he was?
Dying from throat cancer.
Gloria DryGarden
@sab: combining Tobie at 103 with your comment, we need the expertise and experience. Not term limits. Really glad you pointed this out. Maybe better discussions about health and transparency, and who is a good fighter. But not hard and fast rules.
plenty of people are giving good value and service into their 70s and 80s, and are willing to put up with the challenges of the job. There’s a balance, and maybe democrats as a whole can get better at planning succession, mentoring the next wave of potential elected officials, encouraging the mid aged and younger candidates to run.
im like Baud, I look for the D, but I think hard about the primaries.
and I’m allergic to shoulds. It’s a great way to start more fights, keep us divided and weak, fighting against each other. I’m trying to learn from the skilled commenters here, and be usefully civil.
gratefully,
gloria
Baud
@Suzanne:
But I don’t think she needs it to be successful.
ETA: If she doesn’t want to be an outsider, she should defend the party more, especially against Bernie.
Doc Sardonic
A lot of good points have been made in this discussion, so just to add my opinion (just a reminder, opinions are like assholes and I am one), I think it is dangerous to let ageism even get it’s nose under the edge of the tent. The other side of the coin is that like the old drinking and driving PSA, our leaders should know when to say when. I will use myself as an example and ASSUME I am an elected congress person using my declining health timeline overlayed with House elections assuming I was elected in 2008. Early 2010, a few months before election for my second term my health started to decline with a heart issue in my late 40’s. Halfway through my second term I got a cancer diagnosis, had surgery and cleared that up. In 2012, my cancer returned so we did more treatment, my heart condition, while still not optimal was stable, I decided to run again and get re-elected, lather, rinse, repeat for the next 2 terms as my health was stable. In 2017 mid point of my term my heart decided to “hike the Appalachian Trail”, another procedure, brief hospitalization and we were ready for 2018, 2020 and 2022. After my re-election in 2022 right before Christmas my heart decided it was time for Elvis to leave the building, only Elvis wanted another encore and I survived. Now I have a ticking time bomb in my chest, 2024 was when to say when, unfortunately the young unknown Democrat that ran for my seat lost to a Republican by 20 points.
Gloria DryGarden
@Timill: cool. Fuck. Of course, Don’t tell me how to do it…
so smooth. So aesthetically useful! I’ll just admire it then.
this only means I don’t work for the “devil”. Well, that’s good.
Suzanne
@Baud: She doesn’t need it to be successful. The Dems need her — and the voters she brings along — to be successful.
wjca
There’s plenty of real stuff to drive you crazy. But this?
“House” and “Democrats” are routinely capitalized. And it appears from your quote that “Young” is capitalized simply because it is the first word in the sentence. (If it isn’t, the notmal way to indicate that is to start with “…”.) So, nothing to see here.
Baud
@Suzanne:
Maybe. I don’t know what it takes to be successful, so I don’t have an opinion on that.
Sasha
Pelosi was 70 when she willed the ACA into existence and 76 when she stymied Trump in his first term.
Old does not equal bad, but more reflection is required after SS age.
JaySinWA
Given the current state of the world, I’m not sure that’s a compelling argument.
Suzanne
@Baud: Who gives a fuck about Bernie Sanders?! If he dies in office, is Vermont gonna elect a Republican? Unlikely. What purpose would it serve to alienate Bernie fans? That’s strategically dumb.
If they can’t abide AOC, they can elevate Maxwell Frost or Summer Lee or Joe Neguse or whomever else. But we would be well-served if we thought about appealing to more people.
Ohio Mom
@hrprogressive: A big fat NO to term limits. I’ve seen them in practice in the City of Cincinnati and they weakened the City Council’s power and stature considerably.
The big business interests know if Council won’t work with them on a specific project, just wait a couple of years and it will be an all new Council; in the olden days, that was hard to do because the talented and smart Councilmembers kept getting re-elected.
We lost a lot of institutional memory with the constant turmoil since term limits were enacted, and frankly, the bench isn’t that deep, the ratio of good Councilmembers to Clowns is often weighted toward the Clowns.
Old School
Baud
@Suzanne:
I also don’t know she can be successful if the party isn’t successful.
brantl
@JaySinWA: no shit.
Captain C
@Old School: I wonder how long FFOTUS can keep pulling Fyre Festival shit like this before enough of his cultists notice (and care) and he thus loses support.
Also, you could probably roast the sole of a shoe and put ketchup on it, and FFOTUS would think it was a delicious steak.
Baud
@Suzanne:
VT has a Republican governor. And Bernie is the Senate’s official outreach person and he can’t defend the party when talking to his base. That’s a problem. I’m not going to pretend that it’s not.
tobie
@Suzanne: Actually I really like Neguse. Can tolerate AOC. Wouldn’t give a shit if Summer Lee or Maxwell Frost decided not to run for reelection.
trollhattan
Jesus, it would be parody if they weren’t actually doing this shit. NPS must now encourage visitors to turn them in for rong thinkin’. Does anything make you feel icky? Let us know!
“Whaddya mean ‘don’t litter?’ You gettin’ in the way of me tossin’ garbage?!?”
Geminid
My Representation in VA07 has definitely gotten older. I used to have Abigail Spanberger, who’s 45 years old. Now it’s Eugene Vindman, and he’s 49! Those lucky Dems over in the 10th CD just elected Suhas Subramanyam, who’s only 38.
House Democrats have a fairly young leadership team in Hakeem Jeffries (54), Catherine Clark (61) and Pete Aguilar (45). They replaced much older leaders before the last Congress commenced in January of 2023. This is isn’t mentioned very much in these “gerontocracy” discussions, and that makes me think there may be agendas besides aging at play.
That said, I still would like to see most– not neccesarily all– of our House members over 70 retire, if only because there’s a lot of younger talent waiting in the wings. I would not mind seeing Dems in their 60s retire either, for the same reason.
One path towards a younger Democrat is through knocking off Republicans with young Democratic candidates. This happened in the 2018 Blue Wave, when 40 Dems won Republican-held seats.
I remember being struck at the time by all the young csndidates who flipped districts. Spanberger, Elaine Luria, Sharice Davids, Xochitl Torres Small, Joe Neguse, Jason Crow, Haley Stevens, Jared Golden Cindy Axne, Katie Porter and others were in their 30s while Lauren Underwood and Abby Finkenaur were in the 20s. There were plenty in their early 40s as well.
Even with gerrymandering, there will be a lot of Republican seats in play this year. This should be an opportunity to bring some younger blood into the Democratic Caucus.
ExPatExDem
@Sasha: Dianne Feinstein was 85 years old when she ran for her 5th term as a U.S. Senator and was in clear cognitive decline about 2 years into it, when she had to have Patty Murray sit next to her and tell her when to say “aye” and “nay”.
Once the odometer flips to “8”, staying in office is a roll of the dice as far as being able to keep up with the demands of office, or even living to complete your term. Recent examples include the late Senator Feinstein, the late Justice Ginsburg, and former President Biden.
Baud
@Suzanne:
Too bad there’s no consensus on which people we should appeal to.
trollhattan
@Ohio Mom: It has not improved state gummint in California. Yeah, you take some losers out with the trash (if Republican, they switch to the House) but force lots of very effective polls out of the capital far too soon.
trollhattan
@ExPatExDem: Boxer did it exactly right. DiFi was too pro-DiFi to not run again, to everybody’s discredit.
Ishiyama
“Can we have a constructive conversation about this aging issue (in the House and the Senate) on Balloon Juice?”
From what I have seen of the debates on this platform, probably not. There is no expressed wish for unity. I see many people carrying grudges, or riding their personal hobby horse.
Ruckus
@SW:
I retired at 73. Had worked more than long enough – 60 years. And raised my SS benefit high enough that I can live reasonably comfortably, rather than just survival.
Suzanne
@Baud: Her seat is pretty safe, so she can likely hold it, and continue to get on TV…… even if Dems don’t win the Senate or the House. Thousands of people have been coming to see her at rallies, all across the country. If we are smart, we make sure that our tent is wide enough for those people.
Glory b
@ExPatExDem:
@Suzanne: BUT she’s called herself an outsider.
She said she’s a Democrat of convenience, that she’s REALLY a socialist.
She’s protested along side the Revolutionary Communist party.
Those are likely to be hard to explain to regular Americans.
One of the reasons Democrats are losing Hispanic voters is because the Republicans call us socialists and Communists.
Now, they can say, “See? We told you!”
She’s pushed by the television guys not because she’s a particularly good speaker but because she’s skinny, pretty and sufficiently white adjacent appearing.
Some one on Bluesky said that if she was a 300 pound dark skinned black woman, no one would know who she was.
I’ll also note that, while she still wins comfortably, her vote totals are lowering each election.
Baud
@Suzanne:
Nothing is stopping them except themselves.
I’m pretty sure she wants more out of her career than being a permanent rep in the House minority.
Ohio Mom
The frustrating thing about very old elected officials is well, they are politicians, and by definition should be more shrewd and strategic in outlook and practice than the rest of us.
They should be able to take into consideration what their party needs to keep and gain influence and power and to navigate changing circumstances.
That should include the question, Am I too old and frail and/or ill to keep this seat? And if an elected official can’t see their capabilities clearly, then their colleagues need to step up.
But that would require teamwork and I’m not seeing much of that.
glc
I don’t read Raw Story but I was curious about your issue with it and took a look. I don’t have a problem reading it with my ad blocker on, but this sort of thing can be very much dependent on your browser and extensions. In my case, at the moment I generally use Safari or Firefox and can read Raw Story using either. In the case of Safari this means switching either to “Reader View” or using the option “hide distracting items” and wiping out their pop-up. In the case of Firefox it works directly with no special effort (for some mysterious reason – that seems odd and I’ve only tested it once, maybe the browser is being clever).
There are better browsers around, certainly, and I would imagine they are at least equally effective, at the moment. There’s an arms race going on with the websites and this may change over time.
Gloria DryGarden
@Baud: fancy that. Appealing to more people. Good idea.
Suzanne
@Baud: I’m sure she does, too. But again, the Party needs her fans. It’s the old truism about politics being about adding people, not subtracting.
And again, if the Dems in leadership truly cannot abide AOC because they feel she’s not a good enough team player, then elevate someone else who serves a similar purpose. But if you’re asking why it’s smart strategy for the Party to push its more promising or popular young members into positions of influence, that’s why.
narya
@brantl: his piece on the NRA was exceptional (back on his blog, before Raw Story).
tobie
@Baud: Social media may have made it impossible to have universally appealing figures. Obama rose to fame in the internet age but people weren’t yet hooked to social through their smart phones. The ways we interact with each other, how we stand out have changed so much in the past two decades. I never cease to be amazed by this.
Baud
@Glory b:
The weight would be a problem, but I think Jasmine Crockett gets deservedly good play on the socials, at least in my bubble.
ExPatExDem
To this I would give a “so what”?
It would be nice to live in a world where superficial characteristics didn’t affect a person’s prospects, but that’s not the world we live in.
JFK’s career was aided by the fact that he was movie star handsome. Was that a bad thing?
Ruckus
@Ishiyama:
Some do not realize that everyone ages differently and that some should retire earlier than others and some can work longer.
But if we live long enough we will age out. And very, very often will not want to do much of anything requiring actual labor, even before we get there. It’s humanity, in all it’s glory and all it’s bullshit. (and sometimes it’s hard to tell the difference)
Baud
@Suzanne:
To be clear, I don’t mean to suggest this. As far as I know, the Dems are sticking with their seniority system because they think it works for them, which isn’t personal to AOC.
ExPatExDem
@Baud: The most popular Dem POTUS in the last half century was a guy who didn’t wait his turn or respect the seniority system.
Baud
@ExPatExDem:
Right. And his fans didn’t complain about it or make excuses.
From what I’ve seen of AOC over the last few years, she’s a very positive person. But a segment of her fan base is not, and fairly or not, that’s going to reflect on her.
gvg
@AnonPhenom: This has to do also with left overs from time periods when Democrats or Republicans were winning or gaining seats. When I was young, democrats were popular and won elections, then Ronnie came along and lots of people jumped on his coattails, including a bunch of party switchers who seemed to me to be just in it for money and perks. For awhile they kept gaining seats. Clinton’s triangulation slowed that down and it’s been back and forth since then with some trends of a few years, but there is a really old lump of democrats elected and then a shortage of middle age because they weren’t winning elections as much in that age group to gain any experience and connections for fund raising and move up. That age produced a bunch (too many) of republicans, who then moved up (barf). Congress is full of echos of our past other elections.
I personally prefer some experience. Maybe not decades and stuck in the mud, but I also don’t like surprises like getting a crook or a disloyal democrat instead of a hard working honest pretty competant rep, for example.
Suzanne
@Glory b: I also don’t care about AOC specifically. The point is that she brings some people along, and we need those people to vote for our candidates. So, elevating some of these younger and more popular people to…. something…. it’s a way of welcoming those voters into the coalition.
moonbat
@Randal Sexton: Every bit of this.
Trust someone claiming to be a Dem somewhere declaring that the passage of that monstrosity of a bill this week was somehow the Democrats’ fault. No, Republicans wrote it and passed it. It’s the minority opposition’s job to make sure we hang it around their necks from here to eternity.
LeftCoastYankee
I think there’s 2 different calculations for the House and Senate, with the length of terms, size of the body, and the processes for filling vacancies.
I think with the House, if you’re actively getting treatment for cancer (or life threatening illness) you should not run for reelection, regardless of age. If you end up healthy enough afterwards you can run again or for another public office.
With the Senate, health condition could be considered on a case by case basis, but once you reach 80 running is not wise and probably selfish.
Regardless, succession planning needs to be a priority consideration at the party level. Not necessarily to choose for the voters but to make sure there’s a bench of candidates who are ready to effectively run for that seat.
trollhattan
@Baud:
Some people have “it.” She’s one.
gvg
@Baud: We will have a younger caucus when we are consistantly winning elections. The reason we had such an old caucus before (we used to be A LOT older than the republicans) is that they had been winning more elections than we were, and they were picking off former democratic seats every decade. So just win baby, and the age thing will take care of itself.
Baud
@trollhattan:
I think she’s talented. But I no longer trust that my views are are shared by others.
Baud
@gvg:
Agree. We create these problems for ourselves and future generations when we don’t turn out.
ETA: Especially for state elections.
Fair Economist
Can we go for “if you are over 70 and have a dangerous cancer diagnosis, it’s time to retire”? I think that’s pretty reasonable.
Perhaps the Republicans could have squeaked the bill through with 3 more opponents. But then again, perhaps not. We won’t know. Plus, they might have had to make more concessions on the bill. Plus, maybe the election could have been a little closer.
Baud
@tobie:
Maybe so. I personally don’t care how appealing a politician is, but I’m not a normie (tried once and failed).
PatD
@UncleEbeneezer: This wouldn’t really be a topic of discussion except that Democrats have endured catastrophic political damage due to people staying on too long. The primary example is Ginsberg but obviously there are other recent examples that aren’t quite as significant.
The aged should be respected and valued but having a concentration of 70 year old+ politicians in important leadership positions at the worst time is politically dumb.
No One of Consequence
@Timill: EVILLLL!!!!!
slash golfclap
-NOoC
trollhattan
@Baud:
Having kids is a great path to learning what it’s like to be wrong much of the time.
Parenthood: The Hubris Quencher.
PatD
@Baud: this is another conversation entirely. The interests of Dem leadership are not necessarily in line with the interests of Dem voters or the party at large. It should and it’s supposed to but if it did there would be accountability for political failures and that doesn’t really happen compared to political parties in other countries after losing elections.
jonas
I wouldn’t call it a “cabal,” but rather “deep-pocketed donor networks”. It’s just incredibly hard in the current climate for newcomers to gain traction against a well-established incumbent. I don’t think term limits are a good idea (we need experience!) but the amount of money you have to raise to run for federal office is a huge, huge barrier to entry and that combined with voter inertia is why we have a lot of very senior Senators and Representatives.
Baud
@PatD:
No two interests are ever perfectly aligned.
And we don’t have a parliamentary system, so there’s no easy way to hold people accountable for election outcomes. Republicans don’t operate that way either.
lifeinthebonusround
I luxuriate here in Cambridge MA, where my congresscritter is Katherine Clark (age 62 in July), and my two Senators are Elizabeth Warren (76 in June) and Ed Markey (79 in July and apparently gunning for 2026). Personally I’d like Markey to retire and coach/groom a successor (who hopefully wouldn’t be odious Seth Moulten or an equally odious peer), because the bench is deep here and Markey’s Class 2 seat has stayed safe since 1980. Warren’s Class 1 seat has been safely Democratic (except for Playgirl centerfold whatshisname) since 1952. If one or t’other were to kick off I’m not worried that another centerfold would win the seat.
I’m 76 meself and I wuldna trust me to navigate the stairs in the Capitol, let alone the politics.
Ruckus
@Baud:
This is still humanity. She is a woman. And in this bit of humanity, for some parts of it, that is a negative. And might always be one. It isn’t right or fair or rational and it is bullshit. This world has revolved around the male half of the species for a very long time. And that is changing, as it should. At some point pure strength was a necessity and that often meant male over female. It doesn’t often need to of course, but it did in the way back, when most everything was manual labor. Today it isn’t at all often, for two reasons. First much in the world has a machine of some sort to do the hard, heavy stuff. Like a forklift, or a tractor with a bucket rather than a shovel, or an air hammer rather than a sledge hammer. Second a lot of things are done by machine that used to only be able to by hand. Some of those have been around for a long time. How about a kitchen mixer rather than a big spoon or masher.
Life has changed a lot in the lifetime of many still alive today, how long ago was it when the automatic transmission came out – and until it was made better than the first go round? I’m old enough to remember. And now we have manual gearboxes with auto shifting. Better milage and still no shifting.
Life has changed a lot and during the lives of some of us still living. Cars are extremely different and better than 50-60 years ago. Machines to make things are as well. It’s still breathing in and out but what we do after that is often far different than it was 50-75 years ago. And may/likely will be different in another 50-75 years.
It was far different 100 years ago, so I’ve been told…
moonbat
The end of earmarks in Congress, just like the age or term limits being advocated by some here, is weakens the connection between an elected pol and their constituents. Job performance is measured by how ideologically pure/loyal to dear leader you are, not by what you’ve done or haven’t done for your state/district. The latter requires savvy, know-how, legislative skill, and effective horse-trading. Stuff the olds still know how to do.
We do have some talented up and coming social media mavens, but until they start writing and passing legislation, their long-term benefit for the American people will be limited. Winning on Bluesky is not the same thing as getting a bill passed.
As others have pointed out, where term limits have been tried, it only served to make pols loyal to their lobbyists and big donors, sort of how we got into the mess we currently occupy.
Between the Biden ‘bombshell’ this week and this sort of bullshit, I’m sick and tired of us being so easily played.
Baud
@lifeinthebonusround:
I remember AOC supported Markey over young Patrick Kennedy. Which is fine in my book. But I’m pretty indifferent when it comes to age.
Baud
@Ruckus:
I’m more likely to vote in the primary on the basis of sex (in the female direction) than age.
HopefullyNotcassandra
The bill might have failed had 4 of our members not died. Remember two magas failed to show for the vote at all.
Would it be better if our contingent was complete? Likely.
Do incumbents win more often ? Definitely.
Does this press environment treat multiple resignations in a party as despondency and disarray? Absolutely.
Baud
@moonbat:
Come sit by me.
WaterGirl
@Gin & Tonic: Well, we’re at #53 and I’d say so far, so good!
Baud
@WaterGirl:
Stop reading!
WaterGirl
@Baud: Oh, that’s not a good sign!
hells littlest angel
His paternalism masked as chivalry was quite the eye-roller.
trollhattan
Oopsie. Beginning to think cargo lines are not sending their best to sea. (See article for pics of what it’s like having a freighter appear in your yard.)
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c1e6jp6z6lgo
WaterGirl
@AnonPhenom: Wow.
WaterGirl
@eclare: I asked that too, last time.
HC = High Country
PatD
@Baud: Yes, also you can see that Crockett for ranking Dem of Oversight is fairly under the radar here. One part of that is that electing Connolly was a clear failure and the second is that some are willing to overlook Crockett’s relative youth and inexperience when they won’t do that for AOC because she’s associated with Bernie.
Interesting Name Goes Here
@Suzanne: After the last eight years, I’m cool with not appealing to Bernie’s crew until things are painful enough for them to finally get a clue. After all, they don’t listen to anything else and have far less of a problem with blowing things up than they do putting something together (if they could put something together right, we’d maybe be on President Sanders’ second term).
steve g
As far as I know, each of the 435 representatives is nominated in a primary and elected in a general election, without receiving a stamp of approval from the Democratic Party Central Age-Approving Authority. What exactly do people think they are going to do about it if they decide there are too many older representatives? Should voters pick the GOP candidate instead of the Dem if the Dem is too old?
WaterGirl
@Randal Sexton: Glad to see you here.
HopefullyNotcassandra
@Gloria DryGarden: absolutely agree with one caveat
How I wish Ruth Bader Ginsburg had retired in 2012 or 2013 before we lost the Senate. She was sharp right to the end; yet, what possible difference does that make now?
PatD
@Baud: She also supported Biden but gets no credit for that here.
HopefullyNotcassandra
@Glory b: that is very harsh on Representative Ocasio-Cortez. She is the most recognized democratic representative we have now. People like and respect her. In my book, her internet abilities are a most excellent attribute.
Chetan Murthy
It’s silly, isn’t it? The G(r)OPer holdouts weren’t more -moderate- than the ones who’d voted for the bill: they were House Freedom Caucus members (like Massie) and they wanted -more evil-, not -less-. This bill was going to pass, one way or the other. That three Dems died and haven’t been replaced is neither here nor there.
And I’m one who is implacably in David Hogg’s corner, on primarying Dems in safe seats who are insufficiently aggressive. So I should be angry about this. But I’m not. The Dems have almost no power here, and i don’t blame them for this bill passing.
PatD
@moonbat: What legislation? Dems have controlled the House for all of two years since 2010. We all know it’s the staffs that are doing the work even when they do manage to get in power. There is not one member of Congress that’s irreplaceable given competent staff.
HopefullyNotcassandra
@brendancalling: that explains much.
Chetan Murthy
@HopefullyNotcassandra: Seconded. And also, worth noting that it was her questioning of Michael Cohen that sparked the investigation into tax fraud at the Trump Organization that got them those big-ass fines.
Glory b
@Baud: Jamine Crockett is much more accomplished, a better speaker because she was a trial attorney before being elected and, in another example of “good black don’t crack,” ready to push 50 (45 years old).
But there’s also the complaint of older women and minorities, that the time it takes for them to crack the glass ceilings above them means that by the time they get that far, they’re dismissed as too old.
PatD
@Baud: Yeah but I’d argue this the main reason we’re seeing all this angst today over age. If Dems were winning it wouldn’t be a problem. When they lose people start to point fingers. Dems are so powerless right now that the only power they actually have is picking their leaders at the local level.
Darkrose
@UncleEbeneezer: Term limits are a disaster in California. Good people are termed out and institutional knowledge is lost, leaving the lobbyists in charge.
Gretchen
@New Deal democrat: RBG had known health problems. That doesn’t apply to other people who have no health problems. Every time this comes up I think of Elizabeth Warren. She’s 75, and has more pep than I had at 25. She has deep and wide-ranging understanding of the financial system that is very necessary to legislating, and I’m not aware of anyone else who has that expertise. Dumping one 75 year old because another old person had cancer is throwing out the baby with the bath water.
Geminid
@lifeinthebonusround: If Rep. Moulton is truly “odious” it seems like you shouldn’t have to worry about him winning a Democratic primary to succeed Sen. Markey. That is, unless your opinion of Moulton is an outlier among Massachusetts Democrats.
You may get the chance to see. Markey has a few months to finally decide if he’s running; my understanding is that is his intention, but he could still change his mind. Then we’ll see what Massachusetts Democrats collectively think about Moulton, because I think he’ll run.
Anyway, there’s really no way– at least that I can see– that Markey could effectively “groom” a successor. His endorsement will count for something, but maybe not that much.
pajaro
@ExPatExDem:
As you surely know, Connolly stepped down as Chair some months ago, when his diagnosis changed.
HopefullyNotcassandra
@Cliosfanboy: the southern solid south /dixiecrats are nearly all trumpkins now. Perhaps that is what he meant ?
tam1MI
Me, I’m just sitting here mirthlessly chuckling as the ageism buzzsaw the likes of Nancy Pelosi were only too happy to use on Joe Biden now gets turned on them.
Sow the wind, reap the whirlwind.
PatD
@pajaro: I think it was more like 3 weeks ago near the end of April.
HopefullyNotcassandra
@schrodingers_cat: There are people calling for both Senator Sanders and Senator Warren to retire simply because of their age. I am not.
Miss Bianca
@Another Scott: this. Ya know what makes me crazy? Yet another “think piece”/agitated discussion about Why the (Democratic) Olds Just Suck. (Never seems to be the Republican Olds, I notice.)
moonbat
@PatD: Bullshit. In those sparse years you refer to the ACA was passed. The ARA was passed. Some of the most progressive legislation in my lifetime was passed and you handwave it all away like it was nothing.
EVERY time the Dems came together to elect a leader over the past 20 years, before she ceded the seat, the Rs made a concerted effort to make sure old gal Pelosi did NOT get the speakership because they did not want to go up against her in the House. And they used the same kind of ageist attacks. She was good at that job.
If these magical staff members that appear out of nowhere and do ALL the work of legislating were where the action is, why would they even care?
Gretchen
@hrprogressive: No. Stupid rule. There are people like Elizabeth Warren who have unique contributions past 70. And as SC notes, we never hear you call for a certain 80yo heart patient to step down.
Let me guess: you’re 25 and think your youth an vigor is more of a contribution than any amount of learning and experience.
Interesting Name Goes Here
@UncleEbeneezer: Progressives really aren’t progressive nowadays, to be honest. They just wear the label because it gives street cred.
If you could resurrect the heroes of the Civil Rights movement and show them what progressives have become, I think every last one of them would start crying. And then some of them would pull off their belts and breaking off switches and start flipping tables.
HopefullyNotcassandra
@kindness: yes. Term limits mean fewer knowledgeable, wise expert legislators and more credulous, easily duped (conned ?) legislators.
Term limits are not our friend, imho
comrade scotts agenda of rage
@lifeinthebonusround:
Moulton is odious. It would be another hard nose holding vote.
They Call Me Noni
@Old School: Good to know. That’s how DTJ rolls, classy as ever.
Baud
@PatD:
@PatD:
I think Crockett is appreciated here. And I recognize AOC supported Biden. But if other people don’t like AOC for whatever reason, that’s their right, just like it’s anyone’s right to not like any Dem.
Glory b
@HopefullyNotcassandra: But while she’s “the face of the party,” young voters are voting more Republican and more often describe themselves as conservative.
Like her or not, the presumption of her effectiveness in convincing voters isn’t grounded in fact.
As I said, while she was re elected by a comfortable margin, her margins in her own district are shrinking.
She is happily known as an acolyte of Bernie Sanders, who now says that Democrats are the biggest threat to Democracy.
I have no idea how she handles that.
HopefullyNotcassandra
@Randal Sexton: I agree with you
ExPatExDem
@pajaro: He resigned his position 25 days ago.
Baud
@PatD:
We need to learn to operate when we’re out of power.
Another Scott
@Suzanne: I like AOC. I think she’s very talented and has a good head on her shoulders. However, …
Devil’s advocate:
A few months ago I looked at, and commented on, AOC’s vote and margin in the 2024 House race compared to Gerry Connolly. With the caveat that while House districts are supposed to be roughly the same size, that doesn’t mean that size doesn’t vary, and eligible voter numbers can vary. I haven’t been able to find the relevant numbers.
Gerry got substantially more votes than AOC did (~ 140k more). Both won by roughly 2:1. It actually looks like AOC’s share of the general election vote has been falling. (And Crowley was getting 83+% in the general before he lost his primary to her.)
Nobody disputes that she is very popular on-line, and there are numbers to back that up. But is there evidence that that on-line popularity has translated into actual votes for her and for other Democrats? Is it just the counter-factual that things would somehow be worse if she weren’t out there?
To be clear, I’m not asking anyone to do my work for me. It’s more of an idle curiosity (since she won’t be on any ballot for me any time soon), and thinking that we came very close last time (as OO reminded us) and shouldn’t learn the wrong lessons – especially without carefully looking at the evidence.
FWIW.
Thanks.
Best wishes,
Scott.
Gretchen
@sab: That’s how you can tell that this commenter is young and hasn’t been paying attention for long. All the old things that have already been tried are new to him. Term limits were tried in Missouri, California, Ohio, and other places. They didn’t give us fresh new citizen legislators. It gave us green legislators who lobbyists led by the hand and we got legislation of, by, and for the lobbyists.
Glory b
@PatD: Pelosi is the most effective speaker in US history.
She got more legislation through the House than any other.
Candidates who told her they might have to downplay their relationship to her got told, “Just win baby.” She’d deal with the rest of it later, after she got a majority.
Miss Bianca
@schrodingers_cat: See, Bernie gets a pass because he’s shouty, dogmatic, doesn’t know how to compromise,. and always thinks he knows best.
Just like the Youngs.//
Gloria DryGarden
@WaterGirl: all the way up to #64, all good. Civil, reasonable, calm reading.
Glory b
@Another Scott: Thanks, you said it better than me.
Just because Chris Hayes says she appeals to young voters doesn’t mean that it translates into votes.
Dems actually improved with 65+ voters, the most reliable group.
Glory b
@Miss Bianca: Ha!
HopefullyNotcassandra
@Captain C: burned to a crisp I believe.
HopefullyNotcassandra
@trollhattan: the Donner party’s story simply has to go
comrade scotts agenda of rage
Term limits are awful and another GOP thing that Dems stoopidly bought into.
Time and time again back in Misery, I’d hear (R) legislators always confirm that they didn’t know shit because none of them were around long enough and thus, lobbyists wrote the bills.
They’d go onto say that they didn’t care because, and this is a quote I heard repeatedly over the years:
“If it turns out bad, it won’t matter to me, I’ll be term-limited out.”
Okay, maybe for Exec branch positions but even then, it can backfire. We have a 3-term limit for mayor here in Denver and our experience with our previous mayor (the current one is equally odious in different ways) was that once reelected for Term 3, he checked out and looked to set himself up to cash out as much as he could. Total mistake to have him around for 1 term much less 3.
Suzanne
@Another Scott: I’m not talking about measuring her popularity by how many votes she gets in her district. I’m talking about “her fanbase”. The people who go to see her in Idaho or wherever. Those are people we need to bring into the Dem tent. We can’t elevate any Democratic representatives from Idaho.
So has the size of her fanbase been measured? I don’t know. I haven’t seen it. I’m not even saying that Connolly shouldn’t have gotten that committee chairmanship. There seems to be a question about why we would elevate anyone young over anyone old, and I’m telling you why: it’s to make it clear to regular voters with a wide array of viewpoints that they are welcome and valued in the Party. To “grow that tent”, if you might allow a mixed metaphor.
If we think of the Dems as a team, rather than a bunch of individuals…. You build a good team with a range of skills. You develop the most promising members so they can be the seasoned veterans one day.
ExPatExDem
@Another Scott: Why the devil’s advocate argument fails:
Gerry Connolly was terminally ill.
schrodingers_cat
So all old (especially not white) Ds should resign make way for DSA soicalists in deep blue districts but Bernie can stay in senate at age 84 because his fans would be upset if he is asked to step down.
This assumes that the older Ds like Clyburn who David Hogg insulted by name on TV as a sitting DNC official have no fans. Or if those fans don’t matter.
So what exactly is the main difference between Bernie fans and Clyburn fans?
(I know the answer)
schrodingers_cat
Deleted double comment.
ExPatExDem
@schrodingers_cat: Aren’t you the one who believes that aged white savior Biden would have rode to the rescue after his debate faceplant?
HopefullyNotcassandra
@Chetan Murthy: true. She is an excellent questioner.
pajaro
@PatD:
My bad. Sorry, my sense of time is definitely askew during Trump II, which feels like it has gone on forever.
Another Scott
@jonas: Sure. It’s a big problem. Nobody is a greater fan of fair and sensible public funding of elections than me.
It’s not going to happen until Democrats have huge majorities, though.
:-(
I think there’s also a lot of benefit for pols to work their way up through the system, also too. Aid on the Hill or School Board, City / County Council, State office of some sort, US House, etc. Some of it can seem like musical chairs, especially if term limits come into play, but the big benefit is that it doesn’t hand great power and responsibility to empty books like Gov Fuzzy Vest and Donnie.
Having people demonstrate that they understand and respect the operation of government before taking on big elected responsibilities (in general, not a hard-and-fast rule) is important, IMHO.
Gerry worked his way up that way, and was an extremely effective advocate as a result.
Thanks.
Best wishes,
Scott.
PatD
@moonbat: No, no one is hand waving anything. But it’s reality that Dems have only had 2 years since 2010 to pursue meaningful legislation. The ACA was great 16 years ago, ARP and IRA was great work. But let’s not pretend there aren’t smart, capable people under 70 who can manage that. It’s not rocket science.
Suzanne
I’ve been personally trying so hard to not get wrapped up in discussion of individual members because I think the principle is what’s important. But I think Bernie Sanders should retire, and Nancy Pelosi, too. And a few others. I appreciated that Nancy Smash obviously invested a great deal of mentorship and development of Hakeem Jeffries’ career. Intentional offboarding to avoid unexpected transition is good, and it really should be a norm.
Geminid
@schrodingers_cat: Ironically, David Hogg’s PAC made its first endorsement in an open seat primary. Rep. Robin Kelly is leaving her IL02 seat to run for Senate, and Hogg’s Leaders We Deserve PAC endorsed State Senator Robert Peters to succeed her.
Hogg could have avoided a lot of animosity if he’d just said his PAC would promote younger candidates, and wouldn’t neccesarily rule out ones running against incumbents. Instead he made his effort all about challenging incumbents.
I think Hogg was trying ride an anti-establishment wave that might not be as big as he and others think. He was trying to catch Democrats “on the rebound,” from a demoralizing defeat. But I think Dems are not so demoralized now than they were three months ago, and David Hogg personally may also have lost some of his shine by clinging to his DNC position while running his own PAC.
I would not be surprised if in the end, Leaders We Deserve endorses as many or more candidates for open seats as it does candidates challenging incumbents. That would likely be the more productive approach in terms of endorsees elected.
This raises a question: will a Hogg endorsement hurt a candidate more than it helps, because of the resentment he has generated trying to exploit anti-establishment sentiment.
schrodingers_cat
Trump increased his vote share in AOC’s district by almost 20% percent. She is that popular. I would bet that she would not be able to win a senate seat in NYC. Being popular in the media doesn’t translate to votes. Otherwise Sage Sanders would have been the nominee.
KH lost among independents because they perceived her to be more left than she was. Being a DSA socialist is not popular in most Congressional districts that’s why they run in deep blue districts.
Gloria DryGarden
@Ohio Mom: very effective comment. Good points. I’m glad I saw this.
PatD
@Baud: Yeah, just a little double standard I’ve noticed considering Crockett has only been in Congress since 2023. A credit to her for playing the influencer game so well (as an other commenter stated).
trollhattan
@HopefullyNotcassandra:
Right?
“Consumed by rage?” “No, just consumed.”
Often find myself cycling down Donner Way, named for those Donners, and can’t help repeating in my head “Donner, party of twelve? Your table is ready.”
Interesting Name Goes Here
@Glory b: A quick run for the presidency should fix that. He’ll react as he always does, but his fans will absolutely hold to their lofty standards. Just ask the last woman they put on an electoral pedestal, President Elizabeth Warren.
Gloria DryGarden
I wonder what new topics will come up when we get a new open thread…
sab
@PatD: Crockett is out fundraising quietly around the country for other dems in the House. She was in my neck of the woods last week.
PatD
@schrodingers_cat: I’m not sure anyone could get this anymore wrong. No one can logically make the case that Dems over 70 years old should consider graceful exits before dying in office and not include Sanders, Clyburn, Schumer, Pelosi etc. They have all had lengthy careers and at this point none of them are irreplaceable. A dignified handoff is a good thing and healthy for the party. Ideology has very little to do with it.
HopefullyNotcassandra
@Glory b: some young voters turned to the GOP. Most young voters are still with sanity, democracy and the Democrats
Some of those young folks failed to vote at all last time. Allegedly, many of those regret that now, and wish they had voted for Kamala Harris.
All of that happened back in November when Rep. Ocasio-Cortez was not the face of the party. None of that is her fault, surely?
i wish VP Harris had won with every fiber of my being, but I don’t blame a NY Rep for that loss.
We are in an information war. VP Harris lost because we, democrats, lost that battle in this information war. Rep Ocasio-Cortez is an excellent communicator. Thank heaven she is with us.
Baud
@Geminid:
My problem with Hogg is doing all that while a DNC official.
Baud
@PatD:
I don’t see a double standard. Someone can like one person and not another.
Gloria DryGarden
@Baud: yes.
And we need to get going on the shadow government idea. Spokespersons of brilliance and clarity for all the positions. Shadow president, shadow cabinet..
and yes, the gentle ( fierce ) art of operating effectively while out of power.
Jesse
I agree that we need older folks in Congress because they often have a lot of insight and experience. What I don’t like about having older people around us that we’re overly deferential to then, and they (and their staff) are likely to stick around past their due. We end up in cover-upsand denial, for the most u derstabdabke of reasons. It should be in bounds to press for people to retire when the signs are clear. It shouldn’t be taboo. We railed on about Feinstein here on this blog, for years and years before her death. That may be a less extreme than we want to admit. Calling out someones age isn’t intended to diss their service. But after cases like Feinstein, that TX rep who was found to be living in a nursing home (Granger?), Biden….we have to have space in our heads for two things to be true: an old person can be an asset and a liability, to themselves, their party, institutions, even the country. We need to be able to tell people to leave without fear of ageism.
(No, this isn’t a call to “throw out the bums” or try to get like 50% under 35 on the D side. Unknown young bucks are also a risk, which has been pointed out. Just saying that, given that reps usually get re-elected, we need to have space for saying that old age is factor against them.)
HopefullyNotcassandra
@Another Scott: No doubt Rep Ocasio-Cortez is attacked viciously and often. That must take a toll. So are all of our out spoken Democrats. The GOP hate machine is relentless.
PatD
@sab: I’m a fan. I hope Dems let her shine even as the right wing machine focuses on her.
PatD
@Baud: Ok, we can disagree.
Suzanne
@Gloria DryGarden: Maybe we can talk about low-rise jeans or Kanye not letting Taylor finish, or something else from a decade ago that was mildly annoying but ultimately inconsequential.
HopefullyNotcassandra
@schrodingers_cat: Pardon me? Who is asking Representative Clyburn to step down? I must have missed that comment. I do not want that either.
Sure Lurkalot
I might not be in favor of age limits but I do think that people should think about the future when considering when to call it quits. Most of these points have been made:
no one is indispensable and that thinking can lead to sclerosis and inability to see and confront new realities
mentoring and bringing younger generations to the forefront should be seen as part of most any job.
If your job/career is 100% your identity, that’s not good for you or your constituents
there are limited seats at the table in Congress and using the power of incumbency to remain well into your 70’s and 80’s may very well foreclose out considerable talent. People who don’t have the opportunity to move up in a timely matter and in concert with their ambitions and goals, move on.
ETA: I can’t stand Raw Story. Poorly summarized clickbait with so many banners and pop ups they clearly are more interested in monetizing than the word.
Shakti
Many of our political problems stem from people refusing to reckon with their mortality or not caring about what happens after they die or are out of power (or not betting on it). Nobody wants to protect historical or institutional memory which results in old hands who operate as if nothing happened more than six months ago or will happen more than the next midterm or young hands who operate the exact same way.
This is much broader than our two most powerful political parties.
The way out of this is to protect institutional and historical memory; to constantly draw the unified coherent thread between the past, the present and the future; sasha turning into zamani, and to learn from it and act on it while getting others to do so.
I don’t know if there are any such leaders who exist like that now.
Baud
@HopefullyNotcassandra:
Hogg, apparently.
schrodingers_cat
@HopefullyNotcassandra: Checkout Hogg’s interview with Bill Maher.
HopefullyNotcassandra
@ExPatExDem: he might have. We will never know. No president in my living memory has had a good first debate. It does not help that the gop candidate is allowed to just fabricate nearly every statement, either.
It is pointless to debate the last election. There are no do-overs. The GOP is looting our country. That we can at least point out to our fellow citizens.
Another Scott
@ExPatExDem: [Why I’m replying to an “ExDem” is a sensible question…]
And yet he won a free and fair and secret ballot election in the House Democratic Caucus 6 weeks after he announced his diagnosis.
It’s as if somehow while Only Democrats Have Agency, actual elected Democrats don’t have agency.
Doesn’t make much sense to me, but YMMV.
To be clear, I think elected Democrats do have agency, and they recognize the purpose of leadership in House committees and elsewhere is about much, much more than, say, having 920k fans on Twitch.
Best wishes,
Scott.
Jesse
@schrodingers_cat: I think both should retire. They can endorse and help their preferred successors, as candidates.
In my view, Pelosi should also retire. She served. She’s great. But its time. There are surely plenty of Ds in SF who deserve a national presence.
There are probably others.
HopefullyNotcassandra
@trollhattan: Now that one is going to stick with me.
HopefullyNotcassandra
@Baud: mine too
Geminid
@Suzanne: I believe Hakeem Jeffries would have gotten where he is now even if Nancy Pelosi had not been around. He is a very talented and hardworking man.
I realize the “Pelosi groomed Jeffries” narrative is widely accepted, but I think that’s because for most Democrats Jeffries seemed to come out of nowhere. i could tell a lot of people here first noticed Jeffries when he was one of the ten House Managers in the first Impeachment.
But Jeffries’ talent was recognized by a couple very astute Democrats before he even entered Congress. I saw evidence of this in his Wikipedia biography. When Jeffries ran for the retiring Ed Towns’ seat in 2012, Bill Clinton and Barak Obama posed for a picture standing side by side with Jeffries, all three with big smiles. Jeffries’ campaign circulatrd the photo to good effect.
President Obama wasn’t going to formally endorse in a primary, but he did the next best thing and got Bill Clinton to help. I think Obama saw something of himself in the young Brooklyn Democrat, and there really are a lot of similarities between the two men.
Dorothy A. Winsor
@Jesse: Pelosi did give over her leadership position to Jeffries. That is, she resigned that. She deserves credit for that. I think she has sharp instincts
laura
@Jesse: I do not know if you are a CA voter, but I have been since 1978, and I held my nose when I voted to re-elect Diane Feinstein because those who challenged her in the primary, and her general election competitor were barrel scrapings. On the other hand, I proudly voted for Kamala Harris to succeed Barbara Boxer, and her successor Alex Padilla will get my vote for re-election. Adam Schiff remains in the meh box for now.
In advance of a fresh open thread I’d like to opine that low waist jeans for women; like slim cut suits for men; are Of the devil. Fight me!
Geminid
@Jesse: My hunch is that Pelosi plans to retire this cycle.
ExPatExDem
Wait, you think this is a point in your favor?
He’s dead now. He sought the seat when he was dying. Pelosi whipped the vote for him when he was dying. He lasted 4 months in the position before the ravages of his terminal illness became too much to bear.
There isn’t a hypothetical where he wasn’t terminally ill.
This was an own goal by the Dem old guard.
trollhattan
@HopefullyNotcassandra:
Here to
helpspread my earworms. :-)dearmaizie
I’m sure someone else has pointed this out, but I’m too lazy to look through the comments.
Young House Democrats is not capitalized because it’s the name of an organization. Young is capitalized bc it’s the first word in the sentence. House is always capitalized when referring to the U.S. House of Representatives. It is an organization. Democrats is capitalized for the same reason.
I’m with ya on Raw Story.
sab
@Geminid: He has created a lot of resentment. I think his endorsement might hurt in a primary, where the voters are mostly loyal Democrats.
Another Scott
@ExPatExDem: And the world still turns.
This was not an “own goal” or somehow some great tragedy of leadership or whatever grandiose picture you are trying to throw together.
More of his colleagues wanted him to be Ranking Member on Oversight than wanted AOC. For some very good reasons.
That is all.
Have a nice day.
Best wishes,
Scott.
Redshift
@Geminid:
I would be interested to know how many of the people who want younger leadership would consider them younger, and how many really mean they want people their own age in order to feel represented.
It’s fine if you want to be represented by someone near your own age. But wanting the leadership to be seems like an unreasonable expectation.
PatD
@HopefullyNotcassandra: I had to look up how old Strom Thurmond was when he died. 100. Clyburn’s a young 84 in comparison.
trollhattan
@Jesse:
Has Nancy SMASH signaled anything to date? IDK whether the grave seriousness of the coming midterms are a lure, or a sign to her a change the landscape is needed more.
CA11 is interesting, comprising most of San Francisco except the southern bit that falls in CA15. CA11 is less wealthy [wut??] and voted 10% more for Harris, than CA15.
I really think Paul would like Nancy to retire and then maybe fewer hammer attackers would retain interest in the Pelosis.
chopper
democratic house leadership has purged itself of olds. most everyone in it now is in their 40s and 50s, one of them being 60 or 61. young whippersnappers!
literally nobody cares. none of the people who complain up and down about how old pelosi and biden are care. none of the people who still shit all over the democratic party for ‘the gerontocracy’ even fucking noticed.
Glory b
@Suzanne: Honestly, I never figured young people would be convinced to vote by the age of the minority leader of the Oversight Committee.
Or that committes exist at all.
But mainly that this flowering of young voters she is supposed to have induced hasn’t happened, in fact, it’s the opposite.
I don’t dislike her, I’m looking at those who attribute to her some magical powers of persuasion that she doesn’t appear to have.
I like Crockett better, she’s faster on her feet than most, knows how to cause a viral moment, knows the law, is mature but looks and seems younger than she actually is.
But we also need the Lauren Underwoods, not always on camera, classically beautiful or ready with witty repartee, but has passed a historic number of bills for one with her short number of years in the House.
I don’t think we have to choose, all of our reps can’t be loud, young and can’t pass a bill.
Gloria DryGarden
@laura: yes, when there are only barrel scrapings, what can one do but vote for an aging but competent incumbent?
I agree low-rise jeans are for the young flat-bellied non-mommies. I an searching for, what do they call them, mom jeans…Something more flattering, and higher-waisted. One must put on clothes..
and on another inconsequential topic, what if taylor s and Bruce Springsteen DID give a free concert on the day of someone’s money wasting parade?
oh gosh, I really need to call my senators and rep about wasting money on parades and refitting a plane, while cutting costs to all the common folk. It pisses me off. I need my snap benefits, so I can save to go thrifting for those jeans.
another topic is a reprisal of the garden statuary topic that came up early this morning, flamingos, gargoyles, eastern deities, and so on. And my favorite corollary, the fine line between home decor, and altar building ( and/or seasonal decorating).
The need for jeans that fit is real by the way, and not entirely inconsequential.
ExPatExDem
Of course not. ;-)
Redshift
@Another Scott: Yep. Seniority is probably a bigger factor than it should be overall, but Connolly got the job because it’s an area where he had done good work for years and was good at it, and was still doing good work to until he couldn’t. And then there’s no delay in the chair turning over; it’s not like a special election.
Ruckus
@Baud:
I’m wondering why – other than percentages should be more equal.
I try to take all angles and concepts in mind, and just a tad less than I used to, for 2 reasons. First we have far more information than we used to have up front. Second woman haven’t had a much of a say as men, although that is changing, if for no other reason, some of us are more inclusive than most used to be, but also because of better communications that we have now. IOW I try to vote on what I see as the better person and if I see equality in direction then I base it on what I see as character. Which of course is more how the person carries themself and acts in public than gender. I find the choices often become rather equal, and will likely take experience as the issue.
ExPatExDem
@PatD: Thurmond was living full time at Walter Reed during his last term.
They’d wheel him in when needed, and I assume had a Page on hand to wipe the drool away.
schrodingers_cat
Hogg, singled out Clyburn but didn’t say a word about Nancy Pelosi, Stany Hoyer who are 85 or Bernie Sanders who is 84.
Make of that what you will
ETA: All of the older Ds listed above have stepped down from their leadership positions. I have no idea whether the independent senator is any leadership position.
Suzanne
@Geminid: From what I understand, Pelosi saw Jeffries’ potential and supported him early. That’s not to undermine his talent or to imply that he isn’t hardworking. Heck, it’s the opposite….. it’s best practice to support those who have the most raw skill and potential.
Baud
@Ruckus:
Women have been, on the whole, stronger than the men folk.
Gloria DryGarden
@ExPatExDem: did he do any good in his four months? I don’t really know, but if he set a tone, and got things done, maybe it wasn’t wasted. Since no one is indispensable, just replace him.
Gloria DryGarden
@Baud: you see us. Thank you.
Glory b
@Suzanne: She did that tour with Sanders, who now says Dems ate the bigger threat to Democracy.
It doesn’t seem like that’s helping.
sab
@Gloria DryGarden: I bought a small flag today at the grocery store. We already have some little flags inside the house.
This one is going upside down in front of the house all day June 14 (Flag day and Hail the King day) and coming back inside that night.
Husband won’t like it at all (fear of MAGAs) but I just can’t let that day with his stupid parade slide by unnoticed.
Gloria DryGarden
@Redshift: all right! You answered my recent comment question. His last four months were not a waste. He got to do his skillful work until he couldn’t, to everyone’s benefit..
Gloria DryGarden
@sab: it’s a really good idea. I’ll see what my grocer6 store has. I don’t really have a flagpole to hang and upside down flag on..
maybe I need a small replica of the stud of liberty for my front garden. I’m sure I can make room.
There not might be a new thread for hours. Some people are working in their gardens, or napping, and I should be, too.
WaterGirl
@pajaro: I’m pretty sure that Connolly announced a few weeks ago that HE WOULD BE stepping down because treatments were no longer going well.
I don’t know whether he actually stepped down or not.
Baud
@WaterGirl:
Pretty sure he’s stepped down now.
Redshift
@Randal Sexton:
That’s easy to say, but I think it’s important to be clear what that means to you. Because the Dems are in the minority, the actual effects of any fighting are pretty limited. So from what I’m seeing, a lot of the people who get cheered as “fighting” are really just talking in ways we like, and managing to get heard in channels that reach us without us having to go look for them.
That’s not nothing! And I’m glad many of them are doing it. But I also see other people speaking out and getting responses on social media of “why are you just talking about this, why aren’t you doing something?”, from the same people who tout their heroes who are also largely… just talking and not doing.
Ruckus
@UncleEbeneezer:
I have no idea how old you are but I’m well into senior and see a difference between old and not so old. But I also see that old is just that, a shorter future than likely for a not so old. Not that the future has a specific length for different people, there is a lady in the apt complex I live in who is on the late side of 98. Now she is pretty much unlike a lot of females of age as she rode a motorcycle for decades, when very few women did. And the percentage has gone up but not a lot. I’ve known her for 8-9 years and don’t expect her to last a lot longer but she’s a hell of a lot tougher than one might imagine. And to me that is a lot of living a long time, looking mostly forward, not always back.
tam1MI
@Glory b: AOC raises more money for the Democratic Party than any other Dem, by orders of magnitude.
I’d call that helping.
Suzanne
@Glory b: That’s fine. I really have no interest in discussing the relative persuasion power of Rep. AOC. I don’t really feel passionately toward her one way or another. And every time we try to have this discussion about age, it gets bogged down in discussion about her and Sanders personally and I don’t want to go there, mostly out of a lack of my own interest. I have my favorites, but that doesn’t really matter, and I try not to be ride-or-die about any of them, because they are all ultimately replaceable.
The more critical point, IMO, is that we need to appeal to a broad range of voters. Age, race, gender identity, and a range of positions and styles on the political spectrum. Young people are the most Dem-voting cohort, even though they did shift rightward, and it appears that many of those people feel that they are not well-represented within our Party., IMO, it’s a no-brainer to get away from a pure seniority system and get some of our more skilled and popular young people on a fast track.
trollhattan
How it started:
How it’s going:
PatD
@Glory b: Crockett and AOC have all of that last line in common. I want them all to do well at the forefront of Dem politics.
sab
@Gloria DryGarden: Lands End has some stretchy indigo denim slacks with elastic waists. They are not as indestructible as real jeans. Also no rivets. But they are blue denim and comfortable. I have two pair full length and two capri length.
Talk about indestructible. All through high school I wore my dad’s hand-me-down Levis that were 45 years old then.
Now I can’t fit into real jeans. Thick middle.
Glory b
@schrodingers_cat: He also said Clyburn needs to “get over himself,” which, in the black community, is a breath taking level of disrespect towards an elder.
As Michael Herriott said, Hogg is a 25 year old white boy who couldn’t carry Clyburn’s jockstrap with a wheelbarrow and 2 more white boys.
It reminds me of a local (Pittsburgh) Hillary Clinton campaign events held at a campus event space.
The local news showed a bunch of primarily white male college students yelling at a group of well dressed older black women getting off a church bus and standing in line for the event.
The sense of younger black voters was that the disrespect shown to their aunties and grandmas was astonishing and political suicide.
Harriet said, in effect, that a young white guy speaking like that to a black elder should be picking up a few teeth.
Geminid
@ExPatExDem: Connally won that election 119 to 86, in a secret ballot. The Democrats voting cared as much about good leadership on that committee as anyone here, and knew the job requirements better.
The attention you pay to that decision is out of proportion to its importance. It would be one thing if it was for a chairmanship, but with a Republican majority dictating the agenda it’s really a matter of which Democrat gets their five minutes of questioning first.
I thought this matter worked out to Rep. Ocasio-Cortez’s benefit. She is now on a committee with much wider subject matter jurisdiction than Oversight. Energy and Commerce deals with clean energy legislation, which was an early interest of Ocasio-Cortez’s. She has the opportunity to work on Green New Deal legisltion that can actually be passed once Democrats win back a House majority.
Energy and Commerce also deals with Medicaid, and Ocasio-Cortez did some very good work during the marathon hearing where Democrats skillfully exposed the harm Republican Medicaid cuts would cause. I wonder if you even noticed.
Glory b
@PatD: True, but Crockett doesn’t come with the leftie “I’m really a socialist/marching with the Revolutionary Communist party” baggage that AOC has and which Republicans won’t hesitate to exploit. Crockett doesn’t have that.
AOC has also voted with the Republicans several times too, so they may not mind her as much as we think.
Baud
@tam1MI:
Where did you find that info? The only list I found was for 2024 and didn’t indicate that.
Ruckus
@Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony:
I think the same.
I retired well into 73 yrs old and mostly because I just didn’t want to work any longer in a machine shop. But we are all different. I type better in my late 70s than I did a couple decades ago, but that is computer usage more than typing. (Easier to fix mistakes….) I’ve used computers for almost 40 years but they were a lot different back then. Once stood looking into a business computer room that was about 50 feet square, filled with computers not much under 6 ft tall and 2 ft wide with 1 inch tape drives. And I’d bet that a modern desktop is a far, far better computer than those. Your phone may be better. Mine is.
sab
@Glory b: Yikes! Clyburn risked his life for years in the Civil Rights movement.
The more I see of Hogg the less I like him.
Geminid
@Suzanne: What I’m saying is that Hakeem Jeffries’ skills weren’t “raw.” He wasn’t some diamond in the rough that Nancy Pelosi spotted and polished up.
Jeffries had to fight hard to make his way in New York City politics, and that is a very tough league. Obama and Clinton recognized Jeffries’ real and proven abilities, not just his potential.
Glory b
@sab: https://www.contrabandcamp.com/p/david-hoggs-white-tears-explained?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android&r=1qdjdd&triedRedirect=true&open=false
comrade scotts agenda of rage
@Glory b:
Per Geminid above at #245, if Hogg had simplified his message, he’d be getting more positive waves back from self-identified Dems.
And then they pull that shit? Talk about racially tone deaf. But then, I see that in spades among entitled white, urban-professional-from-some-lily-white-burb self professed progressives his age and older so this shouldn’t surprise me.
But, it also means he’s to be ignored going forward. Yeah, shit on *the* most reliable, least snowflakey, actual Dems around, that’s brilliant optics.
Lyrebird
@Glory b: I was not sure whether to open this thread. WaterGirl asked whether we can discuss age…
I definitely had a problem with some threads where it was fine to sh_t all over Connolly without even looking at his record, but not acceptable to question any parts of AOC’s record. They are/were both human beings, imperfect, etc. For me, AOC’s comments forefronting how she understood how some of her followers were so disappointed by the pres. primary were a double whammy.
It encourages younger voters to keep that “we are so wronged” attitude (instead of “how can we get at least some say in the sausage making”) that makes disinformation work better, and to me it echoes some of the same ageism and disrespect for the legion of voters who follow Clyburn, and all elders who did persist through primaries and elections with truly lousy choices.
I actually stayed away from the blog for a couple weeks after John Cole told people who think like me to eff off. Not sure I should be typing this, but since I’m so slow it’ll probably be a dead thread before I’m done anyhow.
Thank you for speaking up.
Suzanne
@Geminid: Sure. I think of anybody coming into national politics as somewhat “raw”, but I can appreciate your point.
Ruckus
@laura:
You are correct. Age at some point is an issue. It isn’t the same age for all of us. A minor example is that I type 2 handed faster well into senior hood than I used to, but most of that is practice. Because I type more on here than I used to do working.
sab
@Glory b: YIKES!!
sab
@Glory b: YIKES!
This kid grew up in Florida and pretends to be a Democrat?
Perhaps 25 is way too young to be in any position of influence.
I am old and white and I revere Clyburn and his fellow Civil Rights people ( many of whom did not survive their activism.)
PatD
@Glory b: well, they also treat any Democrat like they’re the second coming of Stalin.
Professor Bigfoot
@ExPatExDem: Everybody is dying of something.
Nobody knows when. And neither did he.
Ruckus
@Gloria DryGarden:
Not disagreeing with you at all but as someone who started working in a machine shop at 13 and worked till well into 73, I am very glad I retired. Very soon I hit 76 yrs old and am selling my car (because the road doesn’t need another old fart driving around – and today there are decent options in LA that I already use) We all age differently, and even if the end of aging is the same for all of us, it still comes at different ages.
tam1MI
@Baud: Where did you find that info? The only list I found was for 2024 and didn’t indicate that.
I read it in an article in, IIRC, Slate magazine. So I am not going to stand by the assertion, because Slate doesn’t fact check.
Gloria DryGarden
@Ruckus: glad you’ve been able to retire well.
chemiclord
At the end of the day, we can talk about how old Dem leaders are, and their iron grasp on power… but at the end of the day, their “iron grip” is due to voters consistently reelecting them.
And it’s also why term limits don’t lead to better leadership, or mandatory retirement doesn’t either. Bad faith actors will find the cracks in any makeshift solution you envision.
The only thing that will lead to better leadership is an informed electorate making informed decisions. And that is why we are probably forever fucked.
artem1s
getting younger people involved is crucial to the health and longevity of any organization. However, you can’t run an organization on hot takes or by posting on social media. We have some excellent younger reps who never get any attention because they aren’t holding rallies and shitposting on social media all day.
Fetterman is an example of someone who was not qualified and not prepared to be in Congress. He’s done far more damage to the Party and country than any of the old people who had the audacity to die in office trying to help keep the country from going up in flames. They could have all gone home, been with their families, and shitposted all day about how the Democrats are failing to fix the GOP, just like all the hot takes, purity pony youths who are basically running the same grift as TCF and Wilmer. ONLY THEY can do it right and everyone else is a shill or cop or genocide Joe or is terrible at messaging.
You want to be a public servant or elected official? Put some time and effort into it and prove you have staying power before you demand to be put first on the list to be Senator or POTUS.
David Collier-Brown
@New Deal democrat: 75 is the retirement age in the Canadian Senate, which is a bit of a retirement-home for MPs from the commons who lose an election or burn out. Our Senate does not have the power of the purse, so it’s also a bit of a backwater.
dnfree
@Lapassionara: members of Congress are a special category. No matter how physically fit and capable someone is, on average people in their 80s are more likely to die in office than people in their 70s. Dying in office leaves their constituents unrepresented for however long their state takes to name a replacement, and might result in a change of party. Risking that is selfish. To say nothing of the cases we know of where the member of Congress was actually suffering from dementia and still kept running.
dnfree
@whydirt: I agree. Biden came to believe he was indispensable and the only one who could beat Trump. We see where that got us. We might have lost anyway, but with Biden in the obvious condition he was in, we were more likely to lose and he couldn’t see that.
dnfree
@Gin & Tonic: Yeah, you’re right! The interesting thing to me as that actual people over age 70 on here disagree, some basing it on “age discrimination”. For the record, I’m nearly 80.
sab
@dnfree: Fuck you.
Biden’s replacement didn’t win when everyone said she ran a flawless campaign.
So Biden was the problem and not: misogyny or reality tv
ETA I try to behave on line but sometimes I cannot.
sab
@dnfree: What young white male pup do you think he should have picked?
Manyakitty
@dnfree: so far, Biden IS the only one to beat trump. Maybe he would have again, but the gigantic knives in his back got in the way.
Manyakitty
@sab: this, all day long.
E.
@Ruckus: Thank you for having the maturity, self awareness, and compassion for others to sell your car.
Another Scott
@sab: You and the conversation here inspired me to look to see what Emma (now X) Gonzalez is up to.
An essay by them is in TheCut.com (from January 2023).
It’s a good read. I wouldn’t be at all surprised if Hogg was still trying to deal with the trauma, and still working on his path, in his own way.
Best wishes,
Scott.
dnfree
@sab: Thank you for the courteous and thoughtful response. I’m merely expressing my opinion, as are you. And I didn’t say (nor do I believe) that either Harris or any other candidate was certain to win, or that Biden was certain to lose.
It’s my opinion that there are other candidates who would have had a better chance to win than Biden did, especially if Biden had said he was not going to run again. It’s my opinion that Biden would not have been a competent president for the next four years, and that he didn’t LOOK like someone who had another four years in him, either mentally or physically. It’s my opinion that Biden let his ego get the better of him, to the detriment of the party.
I understand that your opinion is different, and that’s fine. Someone asked if we could have a civil discussion on the topic, and someone else said no, we couldn’t.
dnfree
@sab: “ What young white male pup do you think he should have picked?”. Really? None. I think Biden should have announced he wasn’t running again and there should have been a primary, which may or may not have been won by a white male. Under the circumstances as they were, Harris was practically forced to say she wouldn’t do much of anything differently from Biden, and that hurt her, in my opinion. People wanted a change.
dnfree
@Manyakitty: The biggest “knife in Biden’s back” was his physical and mental appearance. The people around him should have recognized that. He wasn’t just running a campaign; he was proposing to run the country for another FOUR YEARS. He didn’t appear to be up to it.
dnfree
@schrodingers_cat: If it helps, I think Bernie Sanders should have already stepped down and be working for change, if that’s what he wants to do, from some other position than the Senate. Durbin is my senator and I’m glad he made the responsible decision.
dnfree
@Planetjanet: People making “their own medical decisions” is great. People who run an above-average risk of leaving voters in a district unrepresented, or leaving their party short of votes, should consider that separately from their own medical decisions.
Another Scott
@dnfree:
Anyone we would recognize?
Biden announced he was running again on April 25, 2023. Others could have jumped in earlier if they wanted. Dean Phillips (July 2022) and Jason Palmer did (rather late, October 2023), and didn’t get too far…
To be clear, I don’t know the future, or the alternative future, better than anyone else. And obviously someone other than JRB, jr, is going to run on the D ticket in 2028. It furthers the discussion, in this long and dead thread, to have names rather than the ever popular “Johnny Unbeatable”.
Thanks.
Best wishes,
Scott.
schrodingers_cat
@Manyakitty: @sab: Thanks for saying what needs to be said.
schrodingers_cat
@dnfree: There was a contested primary and Biden won that.Thanks to the people who think like you in the Dem leadership we frittered away the incumbent advantage.Thanks for nothing.
Manyakitty
@dnfree: get bent. Look at you, buying into the media narrative. Doesn’t matter now, does it? Of course, he also had incredibly well-prepared backup in VP Harris, but I guess that doesn’t matter, either.
Manyakitty
@schrodingers_cat: exactly
dnfree
@Another Scott: I don’t have specific other candidates in mind. LBJ announced he wasn’t running in time for a primary, and Humphrey won the nomination but lost the election. If Biden had said he wasn’t running again, we would have had to see who won the primary, and they still might have lost the election. We don’t know. I just think Biden looked like a person who didn’t have another four years in him.
dnfree
@Manyakitty: I really don’t understand the desire to tell other commenters on here to “fuck you” or “get bent”. What’s wrong with just saying “I disagree”?
I didn’t buy into a media narrative. That’s insulting too. I have eyes and ears. I saw the debate, the physical hesitancy, the appearance of age and disability. You and I have different perspectives. That’s okay.
Manyakitty
@dnfree: I suspect it’s anger at disingenuous people like you that leads to rude suggestions.
dnfree
@Manyakitty: Oh, now I’m “disingenuous”.
You don’t know me and I don’t know you. I’m actually pretty sincere in real life, and I’m being sincere here. I feel no need to insult you or accuse you of buying into some narrative or being disingenuous. I say ‘fuck this” or “fuck Trump”, but I don’t say “fuck you” or “get bent” to anyone.
dnfree
@schrodingers_cat: It wasn’t really a contested primary because Biden was running and actual candidates who had more of a chance deferred to him. The lesson of RFK damaging Carter’s chances of winning the general election in 1980 has stuck. An actual open primary would only have occurred if Biden had said he wasn’t running.
The degree of normal incumbent advantage, in my opinion, was damaged both by the economic situation (which was actually good but was not perceived by too many voters that way) and by Biden’s appearance of frailty.
schrodingers_cat
@dnfree: You got what you wanted. We lost. Congrats.
Atticus Dogsbody
@ArchTeryx: Erik “Son of Erik” is Erik Erikson not Erik Loomis.
dnfree
@schrodingers_cat: What the heck??? I got what I wanted? That makes no sense at all. I wanted a Democrat to win and I wanted Trump to be defeated, hopefully soundly. We both wanted Trump defeated, I’m sure. We agree that Biden had a lot of accomplishments in his presidency. We disagree on whether he should have pursued another term.
We can disagree on what went wrong, but to say I got what I wanted is just…I’m at a loss for words.
schrodingers_cat
@dnfree: You didn’t want Biden to run because he was too old. So he withdrew even after winning the nomination. So you got what you wanted. As a result we lost. Why are you still arguing with me.
dnfree
@schrodingers_cat: I didn’t know what the best course of action would be. How would I? I didn’t have access to all the facts. As I said, I wanted a Democratic victory; I didn’t know what was the best way to achieve that. Maybe Biden had another four years in him despite his weakened appearance.
The debate was the turning point for me. You’ve accused me before of falling for media hype or something, but I watched it in real time, all the way through, and I was appalled. It was far worse than simply a bad first debate like other candidates have experienced. He looked like a person standing at the wrong bus stop who did not know what was going on. It was a disaster in my mind, with no recovery possible, right as I watched. Republicans had laid ample groundwork to believe he had dementia, and his behavior at that debate seemed to confirm it. And he was the one who wanted an early debate!
By that time it was too late to hold a real primary. Whatever happened was going to be worse than if he had simply recognized his own situation and announced earlier that he wouldn’t run again. So yes, I blame the poor judgment of Biden and those around him.
tommyspoon
I used to be a moderate on this issue, but I think that any Democrat in the House or Senate over the age of 70 should prepare a successor and then retire. The Generation that Must Not be Named has to get out of the way and let the next generation take over.
Ruckus
@UncleEbeneezer:
True.
Political views are not age related. At some time people older or younger will have some bill that affects them more and then age may matter a bit. But political views are from our upbringings, or our parents, or opposite our parents, and I believe mostly align with our friends – otherwise they might not be friends. Some of it depends on our education – maybe not a lot but it does have some effect. Our politics is often how we see the world and if we understand how that view may affect our lives. It’s somewhat how I saw the military when I was in, you had lifers that were often useless people who likely would not get along without the structure – because they had none on their own. And yes you also had lifers that worked as a part of the whole because that’s what they believed in, but they seemed fewer in number. Humans can be very selfish and they can be very much the opposite but we don’t survive many things without being at least attentive to our own needs/desires.
My point of all of this is that humans can be wonderful and can be far, far less. Humans can be selfish because sometimes that’s required for survival – not quite as often in a modern world but still it’s there. Humans can be greedier than often imaginable and some will die or at least risk it, protecting others.
And in a time when there are far, far more of us than when many alive were born, we have to at least have a concept of working together or the whole thing can fall apart. Now I have no idea how to make that happen because survival is inborn and is seldom discarded as if it didn’t exist. And I don’t think it needs to be. But it seems to me we have at this time basically two sides to humanity. Survival and wealth. Now of course wealth can help with survival but it can hurt others if misused. And it seems as it often is.
Ruckus
@UncleEbeneezer:
I got my last job in my early 60s and worked there for 9 years. Now of course many don’t do that but I live in a federal program apartment complex that one has to be older than 55 to rent an apartment. And a lot of people here also work into their 70s. Not everyone does for sure but it seems to be a not insignificant percentage, at least in my experience.
Ruckus
@hrprogressive:
I’m an old fart and I agree with this:
Mandatory retirement ages. Term limits.
It’s not that every single old fart is useless in the government, there is a payoff for experience and enough time to learn most any job with good and bad sides and a lot of exposure. Now exposure can be say for a fireman or in the game of politics. Newbies in either can have issues getting things done and/or done correctly. But at least in firefighters we train what to do and what not to do. How do we do that in congress, other than by experience?
sab
@Ruckus: I have to jump in again against term limits. Replaces public service experience with lobbyist paychecks.
Age limits I am okay with as long as they are not set too low. 65 is too low. 80 I would be fine with.
I am 71 and realize I am not as sharp as I used to be, but I know and remember through experience a lot that my grandchildren have not yet learned.
ETA Age limits depend on the job. Air traffic control has younger age limits than judges. That makes sense to me.
Geminid
@tommyspoon: Your point about older Senators making way for younger ones is well taken. But generally, the successors to Senators prepare themselves.
They are often U.S. Representatives. In 2024 for instance, Reps. Andy Kim (NJ), Elissa Slotkin (MI), Lisa Blunt Rochester (DE), Ruben Gallego (AZ), and Adam Schiff (CA) advanced to the Senate. I don’t think the Senators they replaced had much to do with their careers, although I guess you could say Kyrsten Sinema prepared Ruben Gallego by negative example.
Angela Alsobrooks (MD) was the sixth new Senator Democrats elected last year. She prepared berself with 6 years service as the elected County Executive for Prince George’s County, which has a population of almost 1 million people. Before that, Alsobrooks served two four-year terms as the elected county prosecutor for a county with serious public safety challenges. In ways, Senator Alsobrooks may have been the most prepared of them all.
Geminid
@tommyspoon: I was struck by the age differences between Senators Andy Kim, Elissa Slotkin, Lisa Blunt Rochester, Ruben Gallego, Adam Schiff and Angela Alsobrooks and the Senators they replaced.
At the time they were elected last November, Andy Kim was 42 years-old and Sen. Robert Menendez was 70, a difference of 28 years; Elissa Slotkin was 48 and Sen. Debbie Stabenow was 74, a 26 year difference; Lisa Blunt Rochester was 62 and Sen. Tom Carper was 77, which was a 15 year difference;
Adam Schiff was 64, and Dianne Feinstein was 90 when she died in October of 2023, which was a difference of 26 years (Laphonza Butler (46) was appointed to fill the seat but I’m talking here about who we elect); Angela Alsobrooks (52) succeeded Ben Cardin (81), a difference of 29 years.
Ruben Gallego (44) was only 4 years younger than What’s-Her-Name (48) but still, that made a collective age difference of 118 years between these six Senators and their predecessors.
That’s a lot, I think, and while it doesn’t in itself disprove the “gerontocracy” argument, it is a countervailing data point that goes unmentioned by the “gerontacracy” critics. I think that’s because their hearts are set on a larger argument: basically, “Democratic Party leadership is all fucked up and that’s how we got Trump!” To some extent, age is more an argument of convenience in my opinion, a stand-in for a more general anti-establishment argument.
I guess what I’m saying is that I’m in favor of younger Senators and Representatives generally, but I am also somewhat suspicious of the motivations of the more vehement proponents of the “gerontacracy” critique. That’s not their only beef; it’s just the one they believe can get the most traction.
@Geminid:
tommyspoon
@Geminid: I wouldn’t say there is a “gerontocracy” afoot, per se. But the evidence clearly supports my assertion that a certain generation does not want to let go of power. I have seen this demonstrated in my personal life, in areas that have nothing to do with politics.
To wit: a member of that generation recently sold her house in order to downsize as she approached her late 70s. She did so and moved to a small apartment in the city. Months later, on and afternoon errand, she decided to drive by her old house to see how the new owners were taking care of it. She was shocked to discover that they had removed an old tree that had been on the property long before she had bought the house. She drove home and immediately posted a letter to the new owners expressing her PROFOUND disappointment and outrage. How dare they remove a tree that had provided shade for so many years!
How do I know this, dear reader? Well, she posted this story (and the text of the letter) on her Fb page! Most of us were taken aback, and even a few friends in her age cohort were shocked.
“But it isn’t even your house anymore,” one of them said in a comment. “Why did you write that letter?”
“Because I’m right! You know I’m right” was her terse reply.
They refuse to let go. Therefore, they must be (gently!) moved aside.