Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Innocent people do not delay justice.

Speaker Mike Johnson is a vile traitor to the House and the Constitution.

Whoever he was, that guy was nuts.

That’s my take and I am available for criticism at this time.

Make the republican party small enough to drown in a bathtub.

The arc of history bends toward the same old fuckery.

Let the trolls come, and then ignore them. that’s the worst thing you can do to a troll.

Balloon Juice, where there is always someone who will say you’re doing it wrong.

Following reporting rules is only for the little people, apparently.

Incompetence, fear, or corruption? why not all three?

If rights aren’t universal, they are privilege, not rights.

This must be what justice looks like, not vengeful, just peaceful exuberance.

We can show the world that autocracy can be defeated.

I would gladly pay you tuesday for a hamburger today.

Republican speaker of the house Mike Johnson is the bland and smiling face of evil.

We can’t confuse what’s necessary to win elections with the policies that we want to implement when we do.

“Everybody’s entitled to be an idiot.”

To the privileged, equality seems like oppression.

They want us to be overwhelmed and exhausted. Focus. Resist. Oppose.

Take hopelessness and turn it into resilience.

I would try pessimism, but it probably wouldn’t work.

Accountability, motherfuckers.

When someone says they “love freedom”, rest assured they don’t mean yours.

Celebrate the fucking wins.

You are here: Home / John Cole Presents "This Fucking Old House" / Saturday Night Open Thread Part Two

Reader Interactions

77Comments

  1. 1.

    Jackie

    I’m sulking at the M’s losing 2-1 to the cheater Astros. So to console myself, I’m watching a variety of the Food Network cooking shows I recorded.

    I never ever say this, because it never ever happens… BUT I’m FIRST? I fully expect Mt St Helens to erupt again any minute now!

  2. 2.

    No One of Consequence

    Well, you never responded about whether or not you took me up on my suggestion, and trimmed the verge to a little Soul Food by Goodie Mob. ;)

    Give it a spin, and if you think it is whack, shout me down on a future post. I invite the flame. I will bet you your choice of Gentleman’s wager that you will thank me. (If you haven’t already heard it.)

    Additionally, Mr. Cole, as I know you are an old Deadhead, have to seen this respectful and quite good cover of Gordon Lightfoot by Billy Strings and a few friends?

    youtube.com/watch?v=sSCd7t2gB_w

    I thought it reminded me a bit of some of the early jams into something laid back and mellow during the early 70’s west coast shows. Somewhere in the middle set after drums/space.

    YMMV,
    -NOoC

  3. 3.

    currawong

    Thought I’d throw in a comment from Australia. The East Coast has been inundated with a massive flood event in what has been called a 1 in 500 year event.

    I hate these casual references to rare events. It may have been 1 in 500 in the old climate days. Who knows, it may happen every ten years in this climate and we’re transitioning into something probably worse.

    Meanwhile, here in Southern Victoria and the West of the state, we’ve had hardly any rain this year. Looks like that’s going to end over the next few days though as the winter weather patterns set in.

  4. 4.

    FastEdD

    ‘twas the night before the Indy 500, when all through the town,
    Not a piston was stirring, no engines revving around.
    The garages were silent, the tools laid with care,
    In hopes that the checkered flag soon would be there.
    The drivers were nestled all snug in their beds,
    While visions of milk danced in their heads. 😌

    I will be at the track at 6:30 tomorrow morning. I can’t sleep, but that’s okay. I’m a little kid in his happy place. May the cheaters not win.

  6. 6.

    eclare

    @currawong:

    Looks like the weather will be feast or famine in a lot of places.  In Memphis we have feasted today, several inches of rain.

    Are you following the mushroom murders trial?  I find the case fascinating.

  9. 9.

    Gin & Tonic

    In anticipation of Adam’s thread, it’s a very, very bad night in Kyiv. Looks like DJT’s peace in 24 hours isn’t working out.

  10. 10.

    BlueGuitarist

    JC you mentioned in the post downstairs weird shit at West Point
    from Preznit Endless Verbal Diarrhea,
    AP reports

    Just outside campus, about three dozen demonstrators gathered before the ceremony and were waving miniature American flags. One in the crowd carried a sign that said “Support Our Veterans” and “Stop the Cuts,” while others held up plastic buckets with the message:
    “Go Army Beat Fascism.”

    in addition to the No Kings nationwide protests scheduled June 14,
    there are nationwide Unite for Veterans rallies,
    commemorating DDay and protesting cuts
    Friday June 6
    Dropkick Murphys at the DC event, 2 pm

  11. 11.

    JCJ

    @FastEdD: Also  – Good luck to the Pacers!

    I always enjoyed the excitement of all of the race activities when I lived in Indianapolis.  Way back I remember going to see the people lined up to see Arie Luyendyk at the Target on West 38th Atreet while Michael Andretti was at the K-Mart on High School Road, Indy cars on display, all the hoopla…

  13. 13.

    Sandia Blanca

    @NotMax: That *was* very interesting. Kind of a logistics fan, myself. But you have access to fresh local bananas, I’d wager. When I lived on Oahu in the 1980s, we used to buy “apple bananas” all the time. I still miss those (not available in Texas!).

  15. 15.

    Kayla Rudbek

    For the Floridian contingent, I found a yarn store that shipped my order really really quickly (as in I ordered today and within three hours I had the text message with my tracking number). I’m not sure where Broward County is, but this is the link: sheepthrillsknitting.com/about-us.htm

  17. 17.

    hitchhiker

    A while back I started listening to Sarah Longwell’s podcast about her focus group tapes & observations. It was tough work, and sometimes I still have to take it in little bites just so I don’t get too spun up.

    The latest episode is a group of 3x crusty-old-thug voters — all old people, and (by our low standards here) fairly well-informed. They knew what’s wrong with governing by Executive Order, they knew who Mike Johnson is, that sort of thing. But, as Longwell constantly says, here’s the thing.

    They thought that it has been shown, repeatedly, that lowering taxes increases revenue. They thought Reagan showed that that is how it works, along with other Republicans after him.

    It kind of took my breath away. I’m used to people believing current lies, you know? The Big Lie. The nonsense about Ukraine. The Putin-is-fine stuff.

    But somehow I thought for sure that everybody capable of reading a grownup newspaper would know that Reagan’s tax cuts were just a big fat loan? That they didn’t “pay for themselves.” I couldn’t believe my ears, and I played the clip three times.

    Shit. It explains a lot.

  23. 23.

    Pete Downunder

    @eclare: the whole country is following this. The victim were her ex-in-laws ( her actual ex declined the invite). My friends all think she is clearly guilty. The trial continues.

  24. 24.

    BlueGuitarist

    @eclare:

    Protesters drummed on the plastic buckets.
    Adapting from Queen, singing “we will, we will stop you”

    Found better article than AP, link below with short video and many photos.
    The reference to buckets seems weirder having seen that they also had printed placards with “Go Army Beat Fascism”
    (also a handwritten sign Go Army, Stop Trump)

    poughkeepsiejournal.com/story/news/2025/05/24/protesters-counter-trumps-message-to-west-points-gradu…

  25. 25.

    mrmoshpotato

    🎵ONLY DAISY WANG CHUNGED COTTAGE CHEESE WILL DO!🎵

    How’s that for bang chunging the quiet in its bones?

    ETA – I too think legacy dishwashers totally slap!

  26. 26.

    eclare

    @Pete Downunder:

    I was wondering what people thought.  Seems pretty clear to me, but I’m not on the jury.

    Also it’s suspicious to me that her ex declined, I think at the last minute.

  29. 29.

    mrmoshpotato

    Also, the Timberwolves had such a basketball jones tonight that they bit the Thunder in the face by 42 points.

    Hot diggity wang chunged dog!

  31. 31.

    hitchhiker

    @BlueGuitarist: It’s a tough slog only until you realize these people are not hiding what they think because the groups are homogenous in terms of their voting histories. In other words, they’re  forthcoming because they feel like they’re among friends.

    It’s *wild* to just listen to them. Ohhhhh. Ignorance is the most common failing, combined with certainty that certain lies are true. It’s one thing for me to tell myself they believe Bullshit X, and somehow another to hear their voices calmly mentioning Bullshit X in passing as an accepted fact.

    Anyway.

    Thanks for the link. LOTSA data. :)

  36. 36.

    Jackie

    @mrmoshpotato:

    Also, the Timberwolves had such a basketball jones tonight that they bit the Thunder in the face by 42 points.

    Hot diggity wang chunged dog!

    As a SuperSonic’s fan, my fingers are crossed that the Timberwolves eat the Thunder!!!

    Why, yes, I’m still bitter and hold a grudge.

  37. 37.

    YY_Sima Qian

    The US is not the only country that probably needs to start over (link to the Middle Ease Eye report below, w/ the most frightening sections excerpted):

    Nearly half of Israelis support army killing Palestinians in Gaza, poll finds
    An overwhelming number of Israelis, including seculars, back the forced transfer of Palestinians from Gaza and Israel

    By Nadav Rapaport in Tel Aviv, Israel
    Published date: 24 May 2025 14:48 BST | Last update: 10 hours 39 mins ago

    An overwhelming majority of Israeli Jews support the transfer of Palestinians from Gaza, according to a poll by Pennsylvania State University.

    The survey, conducted in March and published by Haaretz newspaper on Thursday, found that 82 percent of Israeli Jews support the forced expulsion of Palestinians from the Gaza Strip.

    Meanwhile, 47 percent of the Jews answered yes to the question: “Do you support the claim that the [Israeli army] in conquering an enemy city, should act in a manner similar to the way the Israelites did when they conquered Jericho under the leadership of Joshua, ie to kill all its inhabitants?” The reference is to the biblical account of the conquest of Jericho.
    …

    According to the Penn State poll, support for the mass expulsion of Palestinians from the enclave was also found among 70 percent of the secular Jewish public, parts of which are considered liberal. Meanwhile, support among the Masortim (traditionalists), religious, and ultra-Orthodox communities exceeds 90 percent.

    The sweeping and cross-political and social support for the expulsion of Palestinians does not stop at the borders of the occupied Gaza Strip. According to the poll, 56 percent of Israeli Jews support the expulsion of Palestinian citizens of Israel from their land.

    While the highest levels of support for the move were recorded amongst the Masortim, religious, and ultra-Orthodox communities, exceeding 60 percent, there was also significant backing among the secular public. Thirty-eight percent of secular Israeli Jews support the expulsion of Palestinian citizens of Israel from the country, the poll reported.

    Commenting on the results survey, Shay Hazkani, a professor of history and Jewish studies at the University of Maryland, and Tamir Sorek, a professor in the history department at Penn State University, wrote: “There are those who see the shock and anxiety that befell the Israeli public in the wake of the events of October 7th as the only explanation for this radicalization.

    “But the massacre only seems to have unleashed demons that have been nurtured over decades in the media and in the legal and educational systems.”

    …

    The education system has also played a role in shaping extremist views among young Israelis. Hazkani and Sorek say that since the early 2000s, it has undergone a process of radicalisation.

    According to the poll, only 9 percent of Jewish men under the age of 40, representing most of the soldiers in regular and reserve duty, were fully opposed to the ideas of expulsion and transfer.

    …

    Meanwhile, only in Florida (headline as only the NY Post could write):

    Jewish man opens fire on ‘two Palestinians’ in Fla. car — only to learn they’re actually Israeli tourists: cops
    By Jorge Fitz-Gibbon
    Published Feb. 17, 2025, 1:27 p.m. ET

  38. 38.

    JoyceH

    @Jackie: ​
     

    As a SuperSonic’s fan,

    Another Sonics fan! We must be a dying breed, I don’t think I’ve run into a Sonics fan ‘in the wild’ for ages. Sighing for the days I’d drive my ’74 Nova down to the Kingdome to cheer on the Winnebago Wall…

  39. 39.

    JoyceH

    Hey, guys? Dunno if you know it, but Harvard offers online courses, many free, open to anyone. If you look at their ‘government’ listings, it looks pretty dang Woke, doesn’t it? The Constitution, Citizen Politics, the branches of government, preventing the next pandemic, etc. Starting to think TrumpCo bit off more than they could chew…

    pll.harvard.edu/subject/government?page=0

  40. 40.

    currawong

    @eclare: Not following it very closely but you can’t avoid it in the news here. I remember it all sounded a bit odd when news of the poisoning first came out.

  44. 44.

    NotMax

    @JoyceH

    There’s a theory (ring of Occam’s Razor to it) that his vendetta against Harvard stems from their not accepting Barron for admission.

  45. 45.

    Gloria DryGarden

    @YY_Sima Qian:

    The US is not the only country that probably needs to start over

    somebody had to say it bluntly.

    also, 56% of Israelis support expelling Palestinians from their land! That’s intense. I’m horrified.

    your deep seek could probably write us a poem about the country being un made, needing to start over. If you have time for the translating and word clarification you do. I have no idea what prompts you’d use.
    I’ve been dashing off cranky low quality poems tonight over on blue sky. Maybe something of quality, that expresses these times, would be uplifting, despite the spiraling downer happenings.
    maybe your ai poem writer can write us a blessing and prayer for Ukraine.. that might be a better use of your creativity and spare time.
    I trust you’ve had a pleasant lunch or are out in the park admiring springtime with your family, this fine afternoon..

  47. 47.

    Gloria DryGarden

    @NotMax: of course.

    all Elon’s agency takedowns, or a part of them, were directly aimed at agencies regulating his business and stopping him fro doing what he wanted to do with impunity…

  48. 48.

    Melancholy Jaques

    @YY_Sima Qian:

    An overwhelming majority of Israeli Jews support the transfer of Palestinians from Gaza,

    First, “transfer” seems so harmless, almost like they want to move.

    Second, I am curious whether the poll specified or suggested where the Palestinians would be transferred to.

  50. 50.

    MagdaInBlack

    @prostratedragon:  Is his tie purple??

    (tg there are a few nocturnal folk up and posting)

    The folks around him know how impaired he is and are using him. Am I stating the obvious?

  52. 52.

    prostratedragon

    @MagdaInBlack:  Or magenta or something tbat clashes with the preposterous head cover.

    Yeah, they’d have to know. On one hand seems like it’s hard to stay in front of the rapid deterioration. On the other, in comments some have reminded us that he went this far or farther on walkabout at the Boy Scout Jamboree in 2017. Makes a person nostalgic for old institutions.

  53. 53.

    YY_Sima Qian

    @Gloria DryGarden: Took my daughter to her weekly piano lesson in the morning, we’ve all just woken up from a nice afternoon nap.

    The weather here in Wuhan has been surprisingly cool for later spring. Usually it is already hot & muggy.

  55. 55.

    Gloria DryGarden

    @MagdaInBlack: fuschia, a warm shade of pink. Holy mother of god, he has no right to that color.

    And, it doesn’t go with the hat. And, how can he wear a baseball cap at a formal speech? And, the ketchup stains will show…

  56. 56.

    Gloria DryGarden

    @YY_Sima Qian: do you have mountains nearby to cause odd weather variability? Cool sounds nice, actually. So does a nap.
    I’m trying to imagine what interesting places are near wuhan for going on a vacation. Where do people like to go? Is camping a thing? Or are there lots of hotels near your national parks? Trying to get ideas without totally prying…

    I really have to do more geography and map research about china. When I see YouTubes of the beautiful places, I have zero idea where things are.

  57. 57.

    Gloria DryGarden

    It’s late night, so I’ll risk sharing my written temper tantrum poetry of the evening. Sometimes all I can do is state the obvious, no great literature. Here’s one:

    Cranking out cranky poems

    No rhyme or reason,

    Like so much in the news these days.

    But I don’t tells lies to millions

    Or embezzle your tax funds

    For a golden plane or

    An enormous parade.

    __________

    _______here’s a better one_______

    SOUP

    To be a dictator

    Or a gladiator

    Word salad spills out,

    a low-cost soup

    mess

     

    Torn realities

    Decoupaged into

    McDonald’s wrappers

    Soiled with ketchup

     

    Why eat water-based cooking

    When you can make

    Fat wallets for friends, or

    Fast food riches

     

    Rip a country apart

    We’ll eat stone soup

  58. 58.

    sab

    I just finished Tom Levenson’s book So Very Small. I couldn’t put it down. I think I’ll get a real book copy for my spouse’s birthday next month.

  60. 60.

    Betty Cracker

    @MagdaInBlack: The tie is pink and badly askew, as if tucked into his armpit. I didn’t watch the whole speech, just some deranged bits people posted on bsky, but I was struck by how quiet the audience was. The toady who wrote the speech mistook the commencement for a rally so inserted a lot of applause lines. The buffoon paused after those and waited a beat for the insane caterwauls that follow such bon mots at the rallies. But there was only a brief awkward silence followed by polite golf claps. Weird!

  61. 61.

    JoyceH

    @Gloria DryGarden: It was an outdoor event. Trump doesn’t go anywhere outdoors bareheaded anymore, except for a quick walk to Marine One. I’m convinced he started with those stupid caps in 2015 (he’d certainly never worn caps before) because he was speaking outdoors now and nothing looks more ridiculous than a windblown combover. I suspect the need for a cap is even more urgent now as the bald spots have expanded.

  62. 62.

    YY_Sima Qian

    @Gloria DryGarden: The Wuhan area, i.e. the central/eastern part of Hubei Province, is the “lake district” of China, on the Yangtze River’s flood plain. Lots of lakes large & small in the surrounding region, but otherwise nearly flat & featureless. Think Minnesota, w/ more southerly latitude & less harsh winters, & much greener.

    The western 3rd of Hubei Province is quite mountainous, cool in the summer, lush green Karst limestone hills/mountains on an elevated plateau. That is where all of the middle class in Wuhan head to to escape the oppressive summer heat. Hundreds of thousands of Wuhan households have purchased summer properties (small apartments) in the villages & towns across the region for the elderly & the young to live in during the summer break. Others rent apartments for the summer, & still others live in country inns. During summer there are many high speed trains running daily that depart from Wuhan and terminate in Lichuan (otherwise a sleepy backwater), & back, invariably full. Some retirees even live there full time, because of the slower pace, cleaner air, etc.

    My in-laws purchased such a property a few years ago, & the family go there for at least a month every summer. Otherwise, Wuhan is known as one of the “furnaces” of the China, due to the summer heat (> 40 deg. C & > 85% humidity).

    Incidentally, that region is probably where SARS-CoV-2 actually emerged. The limestone mountains are full of caves filled w/ bats. The rural region also had a booming industry raising “wild game” animals in small, crowded farms, a part of the CPC regime’s anti-poverty program to develop supplemental income streams for the predominantly ethnic minority population that live in these marginal (for agricultural) areas. It is entirely conceivable that a progenitor of the SARS-CoV-2 virus jumped from bats to some of the “wild game” animals being raised in one of the farms in close proximity to the caves, & the sick animals were then transported to Wuhan (the logistical node for Central China for such trade), & then crossed species further at the crowded Huanan Seafood Market, before jumping to humans there.

  63. 63.

    prostratedragon

    @JoyceH:  Very good Homburgs are still made. He could wear a gray with his navy suits. But the man is allergic to dignity.

  64. 64.

    Geminid

    @Melancholy Jaques: I’ve seen some critiques of that poll as to methodology and the framing of the questions. I don’t know about this to evaluate them myself, but this poll will be much discussed in Israel in coming days so some more light may be shed on the matter.

    But I’m not surprised that a majority of Israeli Jews would favor expulsion. When Trump floated the idea in early May some opposition leaders like Yair Lapid expressed support for it. Trump’s people started to walk the scheme back soon after, but the idea has taken hold and is encouraged by Netanyahu, who still talks of the “Trump Plan” as if it is a real thing.

    Maybe it is but as has been pointed out, no one can say where 2.2 million Gazans will go, or how they would be removed. The Gulf states Trump just visited are adamantly opposed to removal, as are Israel’s European allies. So is Turkiye, which seems to swing a lot of wdight with Trump, maybe as much as the Saudis and Emiratis.

    I know a lot of people speak of expulsion as if it is a done deal that simply has not been executed yet, but I’ll believe it when I see it. However, the poll clearly shows that the hostility Jewish Israelis have towards the Arabs in Gaza has not abated since the October 7 attacks, and that a majority– maybe not 80%– would have Israel do this if it could.

  65. 65.

    Princess

    @YY_Sima Qian: Now ask Palestinians what “from the river to the sea” means. Both sides want to get rid of the other. It’s awful but it’s why a two state solution remains the only hope.

  66. 66.

    Gloria DryGarden

    @Geminid: I’m going to be slightly sarcastic and say, if Israel were the USA, they might consider sending inconvenient people to detainment camps in strange unconnected countries.

    Somehow, this helps me highlight how appalling it is to know my country has sent people to El Salvador and perhaps will send more to South Sudan. Without due process. It’s really ghastly and unthinkable. It’s too much like the way Jewish people were rounded up in Europe, the trains, the camps, the stories, the imagery.

  67. 67.

    Geminid

    @Gloria DryGarden: Israelis– and some Americans– are in fact considering sending over 2 million Gazans to camps in strange unconnected countries, similar to the way the Trump administration has sent hundreds of people to El Salvador. But aside from the moral issues, there are practical questions here: what countries? and how?

  68. 68.

    Gloria DryGarden

    @Geminid: and funded by whom? Of course, the question of whether my tax dollars are paying for it, (and if the extra $1000 I’ll lose with the new changes also pay for it) brings it back to moral.

    good point about practicality and logistics. South Sudan is, if I understand correctly, a low infrastructure place, and quite close to the equator, meaning hot and uncomfortable.

  69. 69.

    YY_Sima Qian

    @Princess: Except Israel is the overwhelming more powerful actor in the relationship. & the way Israel has treated the Palestinians of the WB, where there is a relatively pliant PA regime utterly dependent on Israel & western aid, & has largely collaborated w/ Israel on security matters (even now acting against the radical militants), is instructive.

  70. 70.

    YY_Sima Qian

    @Geminid: Not just the Gazans. According to the poll, a shocking percentages of Israeli Jews, even secular Jews, support expelling the Arab Israelis (to where, one wonders). & as the academics who conducted polls said, perhaps this is reaction to the Oct. 7 pogrom laying bare for all to see the ethno-nationalist radicalization since the early ’00s, & the lackadaisical reaction from around the world (especially the major powers) giving permission.

  71. 71.

    YY_Sima Qian

    @Gloria DryGarden: The MAGA fantasy of expelling tens of millions of illegal immigrants, many having been in the US for decades, are no more practical to implement. Neither was the early Nazi fantasy of expelling/”evacuating” European Jews to Madagascar.

    However, the fact that so many held/hold such beliefs portent darkness ahead.

  72. 72.

    MagdaInBlack

    @Betty Cracker: Those cadets got a trump rally instead of a commencement address and I sincerely hope they left there thinking  “Holy wtfuk!” rather than “Yeah that’s our guy!”

  73. 73.

    AWOL

    @MagdaInBlack: The latter, Mikey Weinstein has been writing about it for eons. No one gave a flying fuck. Too cowardly. Instead, we get Military Heroes Bullshit nonstop. Worse than Copaganda.

  74. 74.

    Geminid

    @YY_Sima Qian: Barak Ravid posted about the poll covered by Haaretz. A “Citizen M” commented:

       I have a problem with the survey you are sharing. Who conducted it? What sample size? Is the sample representative? What were the rdsponse options?

    Here is a question that arouses suspicion in me– “To erase the memory of modern Amalek.”

    Even if it is quoted in Haaretz, it is not certain the survey is reliable.

    Looking at this from another country 5,000 miles away, I think the suspicion of “Citizen M”– who from his posts appears to be in the opposition camp– is warranted. Why would a responsible pollster frame a question in invidious Biblical terms?

    I think you are correct about the increase of Israeli racism towards Arabs since the early 2000s. That happens to the the time of the Second Intifada, when a suicide bombing campaign claimed the lives of over 600 Israelis. The comparable toll for the U.S.– which is approximately 30 times larger than Israel– would be 18,000 killed.

    The 1200 killed in Hamas’s October 7 attack were roughly twice that of the suicide bombing campaign. And the attackers made a point of filming their savagery with Go-Pro cameras, and propagating the video on the internet with the intent of provoking a savage response from Israel.

    Hamas sacrificed well over of fifty thousand Gazans in hopes they could isolate Israel from its Western allies; also, to forestall normalization of relations between Israel and Arab countries. Hamas would sacrifice 50,000 more if they thought that would achieve their goals.

    If the Uygers had done these things, I wonder how many Chinese would favor expelling them. Plenty, I expect.

    I’m not going to try to extenuate Israel’s war crimes in Gaza because I do not think they can be extenuated. What I’m saying is that this vindictiveness is not due to some character defect unique to Israelis. In the last year of the Second World War, my nation burned to death tens of thousands of Japanese civilians each night of a sustained bombing campaign. This was in a war we had effectively won by then.

    A friend and I were discussing this, and he pointed out that International norms have changed since then. This is only relatively true. There are many people in the world living where the new norms have not applied.

    They certainly did not apply in Syria during last decade, when the Assad regime inflicted ten times the damage on its citizens as Israel has done to Gazans, with hardly one tenth the world outrage.

    But even if international norms have substantially changed post WWII, human nature has not. What I’m trying to say here is that the Israelis aren’t waging a war of vengeance because they are Israelis, they are doing it because they are human, with the same potentials for good and evil found in people from other nations including my own.

  75. 75.

    YY_Sima Qian

    @Geminid: Sure, we will have to see the methodology of the survey as it get published. I did not mention the topic when it was a Middle East Eye report w/ just a few lines, & no other media mention except by the likes of Quds Network. However, when the Middle East Eye came out w/ a much more detailed report on the survey, referencing reporting by the Hebrew edition of the Haaretz, I think it has more credibility.

    If the survey was conducted shortly in the aftermath of Oct. 7 pogroms, I would be somewhat less alarmed by the results, though the readiness to support war crimes & crimes against humanity would still be dismaying. More than 2 years into Israel’s war of vengeance against Gaza, after so much death, destruction & suffering visited upon all of the residents of Gaza, such mentality shared so broadly among the Israeli Jews (whether 80% or 55%) points to pervasive bloodymindedness that do not view Gazans (or indeed Palestinians) as human. I find it hard to believe that the Israeli public do not know what has been going on in Gaza, given the number of reservists who have rotated through the territory, & the persistently genocidal comments by many members of the Israeli government to MSM, as well as many members of the IDF rank & file on social media, all to little consequence. The academics shared their assessment that the survey results did not simply reflect the emotional distressed response to Oct. 7, that is what I found most notable & disturbing.

    &, what of the impulse on the part of so many surveyed Israeli Jews to expel the Arab Israelis? (& presumably support to expel the Palestinians of the WB would be even higher?) They had nothing to do w/ what happened on Oct. 7.

    You mentioned Uyghurs. Yes, after a spate of terrorist attacks committed by Uyghurs separatists in Xinjiang & other parts of the PRC in the mid ’10s, resulting in thousands of casualties, there was little sympathy or alarm among the non-Turkic populations (not just the Han Chinese) of the country when reports started trickling out of mass detentions into the “retraining facilities”, & the seeming arbitrariness of the process ripe for massive abuse. However, at least in my conversations w/ Chinese friends/colleagues, I never shied away from pointing out the injustice at the moral level & the potential for blowback at the practical level. I made some headway when I drew the parallels to the “Strike Hard” campaigns in the  ’80s – ’00s waged by the CPC regime in response to perceived crime waves. The campaigns were fierce, hastily mobilized & made for plenty of abuse, & everyone in the PRC are aware of the negative consequences. I also did not shy away from calling CPC regime policies in Xinjiang in the late ’10s likely crimes against humanity, which was not well received by some among my friends/family.

    Ironically, most people in the PRC (myself included) did not know the full horrors of the terror attacks of the mid-’10s, so most people did not have a visceral fear & hatred of Uyghurs beyond a vague distrust & skepticism. It was not until ’21 – ’22 that the CPC regime propaganda organs mounted a campaign to “educate” the population on the true extent of the dangers of the “Three Evils” (militancy, separatism, Salafism), by playing the graphic CCTV footages of the attacks, interviews w/ the victims & perpetrators, & the gun battles between the police & the diehard holdouts, the kind of coverage one would have expected to be wall to wall immediately following similar attacks in the West. My guess is that the CPC regime did not want to play up the attacks as they happened, in order to maintain the perception of being unquestionably in control, as well as to prevent communal passions from boiling over and leading to Han & other peoples taking matters into their own hands & targeting the Turkic minorities (the regime has a very dim view of  mobs). That happened in 2009, when Uyghur mobs committed pogroms against non-Turkic residents of Ürumqi for a day before the authorities responded in force, leading to outraged Han residents to exact retribution against the Uyghur residents of the city, hundreds died. IMO, the propaganda campaign in the early ’20s was probably to justify its harsh campaign of repression in Xinjiang in the late ’10s to the domestic audience, how it should be credited w/ the “success” of quietness since, & in response to foreign criticism.

  76. 76.

    Geminid

    @YY_Sima Qian: I did not intend to criticize the Chinese for their treatment of Uyghers, but was using a hypothetical to make the point that people in other nations might have had a reaction similar to the Israelis’ actions. I hadn’t known very much about the events you describe and the Chinese government’s reaction, but I see two differences:

    1) the Uyghurs did not send suicide bombers into Chinese cities as happened in Israel ~2001-2004, or a wave of fighters who massacred hundreds of civilians as happened on October 7, 2023 and broadcast their actions that day all over the Internet.

    The events you describe seem more comparable to the outbreak of fighting in Southeast Turkiye in 2015, after the ceasefire between the government and the PKK collapsed. Like the Chinese, the Turks had the means to defeat the insurgents in a relatively short time without egregious civilian casualties, at least according to reporting by the Conflict Group.

    2) China’s government acted responsibly and intentionally refrained from whipping up anti-Uyghur sentiment. This is an irresponsible Israeli government which has done the opposite, prolonging the war and inciting anti-Arab hatred in order to maintain its grip on power.

  77. 77.

    YY_Sima Qian

    @Geminid: Probably death thread. My point about Israel probably need to “start over” was not meant to suggest Israeli Jews to be uniquely “evil” or deranged. I don’t think the Nazis were uniquely evil, either, but merely representative of what humans are capable of under the “right” circumstances. However, the point remains that when so much of society show a readiness to embrace such obviously immoral & inhumane “solutions”, it is probably so damaged as to require a rebuild from the ground up. Nazi Germany & militarist Japan had to be remade, to a lesser extent Fascist Italy. So did the Civil War era southern US, whose reconstruction was partial & incomplete, & we are still living w/ the consequences in the form of MAGA.

    Such remaking does not need to be imposed from abroad, see post-Maoist PRC & other post-Communist (in reality) states. although such remaking can also be partial or merely superficial (see revanchist Russia). Whatever it is, the current status quo cannot & should not hold.

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