Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

If you thought you’d already seen people saying the stupidest things possible on the internet, prepare yourselves.

America is going up in flames. The NYTimes fawns over MAGA celebrities. No longer a real newspaper.

The rest of the comments were smacking Boebert like she was a piñata.

This country desperately needs a functioning fourth estate.

Putin must be throwing ketchup at the walls.

Sadly, media malpractice has become standard practice.

That’s my take and I am available for criticism at this time.

Michigan is a great lesson for Dems everywhere: when you have power…use it!

Dear media: perhaps we ought to let Donald Trump speak for himself!

I’m more christian than these people and i’m an atheist.

Our messy unity will be our strength.

SCOTUS: It’s not “bribery” unless it comes from the Bribery region of France. Otherwise, it’s merely “sparkling malfeasance”.

Just because you believe it, that does not make it true.

Wow, you are pre-disappointed. How surprising.

American history and black history cannot be separated.

They fucked up the fucking up of the fuckup!

I desperately hope that, yet again, i am wrong.

Humiliatingly small and eclipsed by the derision of millions.

The poor and middle-class pay taxes, the rich pay accountants, the wealthy pay politicians.

Republicans firmly believe having an abortion is a very personal, very private decision between a woman and J.D. Vance.

Usually wrong but never in doubt

Within six months Twitter will be fully self-driving.

Giving up is unforgivable.

Second rate reporter says what?

You are here: Home / Open Threads / Oppose the Power Grab (Open Thread)

Oppose the Power Grab (Open Thread)

by | 154 Comments

This post is in: 

I meant to post this earlier, but life got in the way: As you’ve probably heard, the Trump admin is trying to make it easier to replace qualified civil servants with MAGA kooks, but we, the public, have an opportunity to push back. Comments on a proposed rule change to reclassify civil servants are open until June 7th. You can comment under your own name or anonymously.

The proposed rule change is from the Office of Personnel Management (OPM) and is misleadingly titled “Improving Performance, Accountability and Responsiveness in the Civil Service.” In plain terms, the right-wing ideologues currently running OPM want to reclassify federal employees so they can fire career civil servants, including scientists, and replace them with Trumpers.

It’s a power grab that is part of the Project 2025 agenda. You can read the rule change proposal here and leave a comment using the tab at the top of that site. There are currently nearly 30K comments, and from my brief perusal of them, I can tell some right-wing outfit did a cattle call because there are numerous identical comments that praise this power grab as a way to end the “Deep State.”

The quacks and ideologues Trump put in charge of federal agencies have already vandalized U.S. scientific leadership and innovation. The damage is done even if the U.S. ultimately rejects the latest insanity and fascism and restores research funding.

To paraphrase someone on Bluesky,* it’s like when an arsonist burns down a forest. You can plant new trees, but you have to nurture them for years, even decades, to replace what was wantonly destroyed. The proposed rule change is another bucket of accelerant for the arsonists.

Anyway, comment if you’re so inclined and have a moment. Every little bit helps.

Open thread!

*ETA: It’s from a Bluesky post from Katie Mack’s account here. 

Reader Interactions

154Comments

  1. 1.

    Baud

    To paraphrase someone on Bluesky, it’s like when an arsonist burns down a forest. You can plant new trees, but you have to nurture them for years, even decades, to replace what was wantonly destroyed.

    That’s a message a lot of us have been trying to send for decades. It doesn’t seem to penetrate.

  3. 3.

    Bostondreams

    Betty, I’m sure you saw Santa Ono got rejected as UF president. However one feels about the flip flopper, we are never getting a decent academic again.

  4. 4.

    prostratedragon

    Dr. Katie Mack, cosmologist:

    I’ve seen folks talk about how “in four years” they’ll be able to get back to their planned projects and I really don’t think that’s going to work out. People & projects losing funding now will not be able to hit pause and come back once funding is restored. Hard-won progress & capacity will be lost

    If you burn down a forest, you don’t miss out on lumber for just that season. You have to replant all the trees, nurture them, and wait for them to grow.

    The science and research budget cuts happening now are wanton, senseless arson. Recovery, if it ever happens, will take generations.

  7. 7.

    RevRick

    I submitted a comment. The Trump administration wants a cowed workforce, subject to his whims. They want to replace the dedicated, competent, hardworking federal employees with hacks, quacks and ideologues. It is wholesale vandalism that ultimately is directed against us. Trump wants them to serve him, not us.

  8. 8.

    comrade scotts agenda of rage

    “Misleading”?  It’s Orwellian.  It’s how they work and, sadly, a lot of efforts on both sides of the aisle to push shit that’s bad but they don’t want people to know it’s bad.

    The Bushies tried to outsource & privatize damn near everything, to include me.  It was all done under the name:

    “The President’s Management Agenda”

    Again, Orwellian.

  9. 9.

    RevRick

    @Baud: Yeah, those delusions will face a harsh reality. We are ruled by an exceedingly stupid, emotionally unstable man. He has minions like Vought who have wet dreams about 18th century monarchs. All royal prerogatives and unchecked powers. And along with it an erasure of all the social progress we’ve made since then.

  12. 12.

    Jeffro

    this sort of corruption makes me feel more strongly than ever that Dems need to hustle up and get a shadow Cabinet-in-waiting going and speaking out publicly, as well as their own “Project 2027” (things the House can do once back in Dem hands) and “Project 2029” (things that a new Dem administration can do to quickly undo all of trump’s arson and thievery – starting with a mega executive order from the Inaugural stage that undoes all of trumpov’s executive orders at once)

    And we really ought to put his MAGAts on notice that all lawbreaking – illegal deportations/kidnapping/human trafficking, skimming from the Treasury, illegal firing of federal workers, etc – WILL be prosecuted

    A day or two I think I mentioned that President NextDem ought to hold a daily presser about whatever filthy trumpian actions they have uncovered (even if not easily prosecute-able)…it’s not like there will be any shortage of material!  But repetition helps.  A daily drumbeat of “wow, we looked under yet ANOTHER rock and here’s what crawled out” should surely help the Dems in the longer term.

  13. 13.

    prostratedragon

    Dr. Mack linked to Edward Nirenberg, who gets a bit more specific about the damage being done:

    I worry that not enough of a big deal is being made about how long-term the devastation of these budget cuts to our scientific and health agencies will be, beyond the absolute ruin they will cause in the acute period.

    On a basic level- you can’t expect US talent to sit on their hands and wait until maybe, hopefully there’s a job for them. A handful might be able to do that, but the majority are going to leave. Countries are actively seeking to take advantage of US brain drain.

    If enough of these experts leave, even if we restore budgets to what they should be, we won’t have the people to staff these departments. We also will have a massive reduction in the number of people to train new talent to succeed the lost talent in these roles.

    If somehow this is undone, it will still likely take decades to restore things to a state comparable to what it was in 2024.

  14. 14.

    satby

    Jen Rubin in the Contrarian today talks about the budget bill and the Democrats unified opposition to it in detail, for those who think “the Democrats aren’t doing anything”.

    House Democrats did not have the votes to stop the bill, but they made the vote razor close and exacted quite a pound of flesh from Republicans in the process.

  16. 16.

    Baud

    @satby:

    She’s really done a John Cole at this point. I’m not even sure I’d call her a NeverTrumper anymore.

  17. 17.

    Chief Oshkosh

    I left a comment a couple of weeks ago, but thanks for bringing this up, Betty.

    I encourage everyone to go to the linked page and make a comment. As Betty notes, it can be done anonymously if you prefer.

    https://www.regulations.gov/document/OPM-2025-0004-0001

    In the Before Times, I’ve seen the NPRM process work – bad legislation was nixed or made better. Here the exercise it to at least slow the train wreck, but it’s worth it, IMO.

  18. 18.

    Soprano2

    @Baud: The problem is that people didn’t believe they were going to set the fire until they did, even though they kept telling people over and over and over and over that they were indeed going to set the fire. Even now that they’ve set the fire and it’s burning, a lot of people still can’t see it and don’t believe it’s actually happening. They think Democrats will put out the fire before it does too much damage, and when that doesn’t happen they won’t blame the arsonists, they’ll blame Democrats for not preventing the arson. Kind of like how so many people blame women for not stopping a rapist.

  19. 19.

    Baud

    @Soprano2:

    Perfectly said. It also doesn’t help that a third of the party will accuse us of being co-arsoniats in a futile effort to relate to people who hate us.

  20. 20.

    sab

    @prostratedragon: My sister does computer support for research scientists. She says it will take twenty years to fix this if we reverse course now ( won’t happen.)  Otherwise it will take forty, because in addition to losing a generation of scientists, we will also have lost the mentorship infrastructure that supported them.

    Russia basically has never recovered scientifically since the Stalin purges because every twenty-five years or so they have a disruptive leadership change and wipe out all the recovery progress.

    The current Republican approach to government will do the same thing.

  24. 24.

    Betty Cracker

    @satby: Rep. Jeffries and the House Dems are playing the shitty cards they were dealt on this bill about as well as they could so far, IMO. It helps that the Repubs’ bill is egregiously horrible and doesn’t seem to contain much that could lure a jackass like Gottheimer to cross the aisle, but credit where credit is due.

    Also, thanks for the reminder because Jeffries’ response the other day on CNN when asked about DHS handcuffing a staffer for Rep. Nadler was so bad I wanted to pour bourbon into a half-empty container of dulce de leche ice cream and call it lunch. It’s important not to freak out about small things. Does no good!

  25. 25.

    Theflippsyd

    Thanks — I submitted the following:  I oppose any change to how civil servants are hired and fired. The individuals who work in the United States government should continue to be hired for the knowledge they bring to the position, not the loyalty they may feel to a political appointee or elected official. The individuals who work in the federal government are highly educated individuals who have made the lives of the citizens of the United States better and safer in so many ways. These agencies have been decimated by DOGE and this rule change can and will eliminate so many services that make each of our lives better. Just some of the ways that we as citizens of the United States are safer due to these individuals include protecting us from food born illnesses (FDA); disease and viruses (CDC); providing clean water and air (EPA); support for small farmers (SNAP benefits); emergency support after crises (FEMA); nursing home care for our parents and grandparents (Medicaid); safe roads and highways (US DOT); clean national parts (National Park Service); and, safe air travel (FAA). Each of these services requires knowledge and expertise — and those who work for these agencies need to have expertise beyond political affiliation.

  26. 26.

    UncleEbeneezer

    @Baud: One thing I appreciate about Rubin, Frum and other conservatives who’ve come around a bit because of Trump/MAGA: they are more honest about the limitations of Dem’s power than many/most people who opine from a Liberal/Progressive space.  They actually are more fair to the reality Dems face than your average blogger/commenter/influencer on the Left.

  27. 27.

    Baud

    @UncleEbeneezer:

    Thanks for the insight. I don’t regularly follow any opinion havers these days. They’re not all bad, but the effort need to find the diamond in the rough is a deterrent.

    But like people who keep an eye on what Trump is doing, people who engage with opinionators for the cause of good are valuable, and I appreciate their work.

  28. 28.

    satby

    @Betty Cracker: agree. I would hate to be as micromanaged on every utterance as politicians are, especially when the opposition utters batshit evil stuff.

  29. 29.

    Enhanced Voting Techniques

    Civil Service seems a bit like Manufacturing, jobs people romanticize but don’t want to do.

  30. 30.

    Hoodie

    @UncleEbeneezer: They’re probably also more acutely aware of the psychology of the right and its implications.  You increasingly see a strain of nihilism on the right, which has apparently decided that the whole country has to be burned down to save it.   It’s some sort of weird purification impulse that’s the common thread of things like destroying the bureaucracy that helped make the country a superpower, destroying the US’s economic position through ridiculous tariff policies, inviting mass disease and death by gutting public health agencies and services, etc.

  32. 32.

    Soprano2

    @UncleEbeneezer: You mean they don’t think Biden could just pick up the phone, call Netanyahu, and get him to stop the war in Gaza? (insert eyeroll emoji here). The voters didn’t give Democrats any power in this government, yet people expect them to stop all the bad stuff anyway. Which makes me wonder, why did they put Republicans there in the first place? Sure wish someone could honestly get to the bottom of that.

  33. 33.

    Soprano2

    @Hoodie: That’s one of the things they have in common with the far left. The burn it all down mentality seems childish to me, like people who are throwing a fit because they can’t have everything they want right now! They don’t care who they hurt as long as they get their way.

  34. 34.

    Baud

    @Soprano2:

    IMHO the most important thing we can do is wash our hands of responsibility. When people are looking for someone to blame, we should not be offering ourselves up.

  35. 35.

    schrodingers_cat

    @Baud: All those foreign scientists on the hated H1-B visa will be gone. So that’s a win for us, right? (Channeling many “liberals” and “progressives”).

    They are just serfs and scabs as I was educated here by my blog betters in January.

  36. 36.

    Another Scott

    Thanks for highlighting this again, BC.

    Normies who aren’t paying much attention should understand that the reason we have a Civil Service system isn’t because lazy government bureaucrats have captured the government and have instituted a Deep State to enslave everyone else.  It’s because we tried the Spoils System in the past and it was a disaster for good government and enabled vast expansion of exploitation and corruption.

    The Jacksonian split after the 1824 election restored the two-party system.[14] Jackson’s first inauguration, on March 4, 1829, marked the first time since 1801 where one party yielded the presidency to another. A group of office seekers attended the event, explaining it as democratic enthusiasm. Jackson supporters had been lavished with promises of positions in return for political support. These promises were honored by a large number of removals after Jackson assumed power. At the beginning of Jackson’s administration, fully 919 officials were removed from government positions, amounting to nearly 10 percent of all government postings.[15] In 1913 a history of Tennessee commented, “It is said that in early life Jackson had made it a principle never to stand between a friend and a benefit. The converse seemed also to have been a principle: never to benefit an enemy. And those who were excluded from his friendship were excluded from preferment.”[16]

    Historians like Paul W. Gates and especially Malcolm J. Rohrbough seem to have concluded that the transfer of land from Indigenous to U.S. government title was particularly susceptible to exploitation, and that “the bias against adequate support for public work and the political utility of patronage appointments conspired to create a system that functioned admirably to transfer public resources to private hands but showed itself inadequate to any more grandiose end.”[17] As told by Rohrbough in his history of the government land office to 1837, “Andrew Jackson himself displayed signs of frailty in a period when men were becoming increasingly flexible in their ethical standards.”[18] Jackson used government appointments as currency with which to pay political debts, for instance by directing Levi Woodbury to appoint a judge “the office promised worth $1000.”[18] Newspaper editors who had supported the campaign, in-laws, and “attorneys” and “colonels” who were skilled at graft were often among the beneficiaries of land office appointments; per Rohrbough, “Historians have dealt harshly with the land officers of this period.”[19] The most-changed organization within the federal government proved to be the Post Office. The Post Office was the largest department in the federal government, and had even more personnel than the War Department. In one year, 423 postmasters were deprived of their positions, most with extensive records of good service.[20] Jackson did not differ much from other Presidents in the number of officials he replaced by his own partisans.[4] There was, however, an increase in outright criminality, with a measurable, if not marked, increase in corruption in the Land Office, Post Office, and Indian Affairs departments, for instance, see the embezzlement of government funds from the port of New York in what is known as the Swartwout–Hoyt scandal.[20] In another case, Jackson had personally battled to get Samuel Gwin, the son of an old friend, appointed to a land office job down in Mississippi; a Congressional investigation later found that Gwin “had left his office to buy some tracts and had resold them immediately at a 33 percent profit to settlers.”[21] Furthermore, Jackson’s replacement of 29 of 56 U.S. Indian agents was critical to his administration’s systematic expulsion of Indigenous people from the lands east of the Mississippi River because it removed any institutional resistance and left “several zealous officers at the top who had little sympathy for indigenous Americans, and dozens of inexperienced, patronage appointees at the bottom.”[22]

    […]

    By the late 1860s, citizens began demanding civil service reform, but it was only after the 1881 assassination of James A. Garfield by Charles J. Guiteau as revenge for the latter being denied a consulship that the calls for civil service reform intensified.[26] Moderation of the spoils system at the federal level with the passage of the Pendleton Act in 1883, which created a bipartisan Civil Service Commission to evaluate job candidates on a nonpartisan merit basis. While few jobs were covered under the law initially, the law allowed the President to transfer jobs and their current holders into the system, thus giving the holder a permanent job.[citation needed] The Pendleton Act’s reach was expanded as the two main political parties alternated control of the White House every election between 1884 and 1896. Following each election, the outgoing President applied the Pendleton Act to some of the positions for which he had appointed political supporters. By 1900, most federal jobs were handled through civil service, and the spoils system was limited to fewer and fewer positions.

    Something something condemned to repeat it.

    Forward!!

    Best wishes,
    Scott.

  37. 37.

    Elizabelle

    @Theflippsyd:  Good letter.  Thank you for sharing it; I will use it as a template and personalize mine.

    Thank you, Betty Cracker, for getting us to comment on this Orwellian-named rule change.  Will share the link with friends and family.

  38. 38.

    Soprano2

    @Baud: I agree. They didn’t give Democrats any power, so they shouldn’t expect that we can do much of anything right now.

  39. 39.

    lowtechcyclist

    I believe this proposed change was discussed here at BJ a few weeks ago.  I commented back on May 12.  The original due date for comments was May 23; I guess they extended it.​
    ETA: The text of my comment:

    Comment:My name is [xxx], and I am commenting to oppose this proposed rule. I was a Federal employee for 25 years, retiring from the Census Bureau at the end of 2023, so I served there under presidents Clinton, W.Bush, Obama, Trump, and Biden.

    On January 21 of each new Administration, I wasn’t starting from zero in my knowledge of my job. I carried forward the benefit of my previous years of experience and accumulated knowledge and skill. As a result, I could continue not only to perform my tasks at the same high level as before, but continue to improve from where I had been before the transition between Presidents. The same obviously could not have been said for a political appointee, if one had replaced me at any of these changes of Administration. They would have had to learn their job from the very basics on up. And they would have had no assistance from their superiors in this, since presumably everyone above them would also be political appointees starting from the same level of inexperience. They would have to start from the very basic level of finding out what work the laws passed by Congress require them to do, let alone how one goes about doing it. The Census Bureau, for instance, conducts a number of surveys sponsored and published by other agencies, such as the Current Population Survey (CPS) (Bureau of Labor Statistics) or the National Health Interview Survey (National Center for Health Statistics). If certain civil service employees at those agencies were replaced, would there even be anyone left there who knew that the work for those surveys had been outsourced to the Census Bureau, or would they start off with a mad scramble to figure out how to conduct them from scratch, once they realized the law required them to conduct these surveys and regularly publish the results – monthly, in the case of the CPS? And would there still be staff at the Census Bureau that knew how to conduct those surveys? Politicizing tens of thousands of civil service positions would put all of this in doubt, and throw a huge monkeywrench in the ability of the Federal government to continue to do the work that Congress has charged it with. Therefore this rule should be rejected; it must be prevented from taking effect.​

  40. 40.

    Belafon

    My joke with my wife on all of this shit Republicans are doing is that I don’t want to be the smartest person left in the country. I wish I had everything together well enough to be wanted by countries willing to fund research.

  41. 41.

    Jeffro

    I think it’s fair to say that Bouie opposes the power grab, too

    Last week, President Trump announced that he had fired the head of the National Portrait Gallery in Washington.

    “Upon the request and recommendation of many people, I am herby terminating the employment of Kim Sajet as Director of the National Portrait Gallery,” Trump wrote in a post on Truth Social. “She is a highly partisan person, and a strong supporter of D.E.I., which is totally inappropriate for her position. Her replacement will be named shortly.”

    There is no reason to doubt the sincerity of Trump’s disdain for Sajet, given his aggressive effort to rid the federal government of “D.E.I.,” which has turned out to mean, the mere presence of nonwhites and women the president doesn’t like in positions of authority.

    The issue complicating his effort to remove Saget, however, is that the National Portrait Gallery is part of the Smithsonian Institution, which is independent of the federal government. And the portrait gallery was established by congressional statute — neither the gallery nor the Smithsonian are located in the executive branch.  The only person with the direct power to remove Sajet would be Lonnie G. Bunch III, who serves as secretary of the Smithsonian. And Bunch, in turn, is accountable to the Smithsonian’s Board of Regents, which consists of the chief justice of the United States, the vice president, three members of the Senate, three members of the House of Representatives and nine private citizens.

    Trump, in other words, has as much power to remove Sajet from her post as I do — that is to say, none at all.

    The struggle over the leadership of the National Portrait Gallery is altogether minor in the larger story of Trump’s assault on the institutions of American government, but it is nonetheless illustrative of the nature of that attack.
    The president’s effort to dominate the federal government and subvert the constitutional order rests on two pillars.

    The first is a claim of unitary executive authority. The president, in this view, doesn’t simply lead the executive branch; the president is the executive branch.

    The second pillar concerns not the scope of the president’s authority but the extent of his reach. As Trump appears to see it, anything that might interface with the federal government — falls under his domain. It is then grafted to the executive branch and subject to his absolute authority.

    The Smithsonian is not a part of the executive branch, but because it is within the purview of the federal government, Trump claims it’s his to dispose of as he wishes. The Library of Congress is, well, the Library of Congress, but Trump has tried to pull it into his orbit.  At this moment, Trump is using the pretext of federal research funding to try to wield power over — and effectively destroy — America’s most powerful universities. In the same way that his personal life has been defined by his rapacious greed, Trump’s political project is now an unrestrained effort to bring as much of American society as possible under his control.

    The question, looking — perhaps prematurely — to a post-Trump world, is how to go back, how to reverse America’s slide into despotism. There is no easy answer, nor is there an obvious path to an answer. There is not even a public consensus about the nature of our current situation, much less the political will necessary to make root-and-branch changes to the American constitutional order. But it is precisely that kind of change, whether in the form of a serious effort to amend the Constitution or in the form of a full-blown constitutional convention, that we need to bring that order back into balance and preserve the nation’s experiment in self-government.

    Here, here!  Any system that coughs up a trumpov needs rebuilding, or even replacing.

  44. 44.

    Another Scott

    @sab: The optimist in me is not quite so pessimistic.

    Sustained funding and commitment can fix a lot of problems fairly quickly.

    From IGY in 1957-1958 to Armstrong and Aldrin landing on the moon was only around 12 years.

    We know how to fix the damage being done. We have the resources. We have the human talent. We know how to build and support the facilities and and all the human and physical infrastructure. These are solvable problems.

    We have to be mature and thoughtful as a society to elect leaders who will guide us in a sensible direction, and not burn everything down.

    Yeah, yeah, I know… :-/ But we can do it.

    Thanks.

    Best wishes,
    Scott.

  45. 45.

    suzanne

    @Soprano2:

    Even now that they’ve set the fire and it’s burning, a lot of people still can’t see it and don’t believe it’s actually happening. 

    Many people want the fire. They just want it to burn the people they hate.

  46. 46.

    Bostondreams

    @Chief Oshkosh: I disagree only because there is likely no one better that will get through. Former UF President Fuchs made that  point. At least Santa Ono was a real academic and researcher and experienced president. Don’t see anyone worthwhile applying now.

  48. 48.

    satby

    @Baud: that’s the rub. As Jim Wright of Stonekettle Station often says: “Want better politicians? Be better citizens.”

  49. 49.

    George

    I left the civil service at the end of last year, but I have kept in touch with former colleagues who still work for federal land management agencies. Apparently there is a new loyalty test on every application for GS-5 positions and above:

    “How would you help advance the President’s Executive Orders and policy priorities in this role? Identify one or two relevant Executive Orders or policy initiatives that are significant to you, and explain how you would help implement them if hired.”

  50. 50.

    frosty

    @George: ​
     That’s such bullshit. If I was applying for a Federal job I wouldn’t even know where to begin to lie to answer that.

  51. 51.

    Hoodie

    @suzanne: Maybe, but it’s also a byproduct of instrumentalist thinking.  Hate is often an emotional response, but a lot of this has moved beyond that into a perverse type of ideological calculation.  The GOP has become more ideological over the years, much like a revolutionary movement.   Conservatism in the past was more grounded in  risk aversion, tradition and resistance to change, but it increasingly has become an ideological project which is more about perpetuating the movement than any actual results.  The claims have to become more outrageous because the movement has to keep moving.  It becomes a cult of action, which often becomes homicidal and, ultimately, suicidal. 

  52. 52.

    lowtechcyclist

    @Karen:

    Where is the link where I’m supposed to comment?

    On this page, there’s a ‘Comment’ button just under the left-hand end of the title of the proposed regulation.

  53. 53.

    Matt McIrvin

    @satby: I can’t make other people better citizens. Mostly they just think I’m nuts.

    I struggle not to fall into eliminationist thinking about my own people. Every day. How do you deal with a whole society overtaken by evil? The loathing turns inward. Am I giving implied consent just by living my life? I read critiques from foreigners talking about how America is enemy now, America must be destroyed. Must I be destroyed? Should I even try to help other people, to be kind? If I do that, am I just perpetuating the evil?

    It does help to know there are others who aren’t supporting any of this, but it also seems ineffective.

  55. 55.

    comrade scotts agenda of rage

    Rubin’s definitely almost gone Full Cole.  A couple of others like Frum and of all people Kristol, are somewhere on that spectrum.  The rest, many of whom get referenced here in a good way jesusfuckingkeeerist, remain bog-standard GOP Never Trumpers who still love the right wing agenda, full stop.  They wanna vote for a (D) for president, fine.  Otherwise, they, their podcasts, and such should be ignored.  They are not good faith actors in this.

  56. 56.

    Jeffro

    @Baud: I’m a little confused by the question.  There are going to be voters in (most) any system of government.  The idea is to give them…give us…a better system.  One that is more responsive to voters and less responsive to malicious actors.

    Here’s part of the piece that I didn’t include in my first long excerpt

    We should treat Trump and his openly authoritarian administration as a failure, not just of our party system or our legal system, but of our Constitution and its ability to meaningfully constrain a destructive and system-threatening force in our political life. And while we can stipulate the extent to which Trump’s rise was contingent on the particular choices of particular people, it is also true that a less counter-majoritarian and anti-democratic system might have kept Trump out of office.

    You may recoil at the thought of constitutional failure, but this would not be the first time our Constitution failed; we live in the world established by our original, explosive failure in the 19th century to contain and resolve a vital political question.

    What is hard to know, at this moment, is whether it will take a similar catastrophe to push us to reform — in the most literal sense of that world — our constitution, and refound our republic, or whether we must wait for the full consequences of failure to weigh on our lives before we begin to try to dig ourselves out.

  57. 57.

    Matt McIrvin

    @Hoodie: The “Chesterton’s Fence” form of conservatism, which is all about not messing with systems when you don’t know what the consequences will be, is embodied today more in Democratic Party liberalism than anything else. Which I think is also a large part of left dissatisfaction with liberals, because a lot of the radical left is also sort of a cult of action, or tries to position itself as such (though ironically it rarely seems to do anything).

  58. 58.

    Soprano2

    @suzanne: I forgot that part, the people who want the fire but think it can be controlled to only burn the people they want it to burn.

  62. 62.

    catclub

    @George: ​
     

    Apparently there is a new loyalty test on every application for GS-5 positions and above:

    Good lord, GS-5 is an assistant typist or warehouse worker who is not yet allowed anything more powerful than a broom.

  63. 63.

    catclub

    @Jeffro: ​
     

    it is also true that a less counter-majoritarian and anti-democratic system might have kept Trump out of office.

    I think they mean a parliamentary system, but am not sure. Also refers to the electoral college system?

  64. 64.

    Hoodie

    @Baud: That’s the rub.  I can sure see why some people think democracy doesn’t work.  Given that we’re committed to that, however, we need to find some way to sell them an ideological project that we can live with that appeals to them but is less toxic than the one the GOP is currently selling.  Experience shows you’re not going to sell them European-style socialism – that has enough problems in Europe (probably by no accident  arising from increased immigration)  and is weird and foreign to Americans, who generally suck at following rules.  Hate to say it, but I’d feel safer if we were back to W’s Ownership Society than this group of suicidal wackos, who include a lot of the guys locked in the closet by W’s people.

  66. 66.

    Baud

    @Jeffro:

    One that is more responsive to voters and less responsive to malicious actors.

     

    And what if the voters are the malicious actors?

    The right wing unitary executive theory is highly responsive to voters. Trump was elected, after all.

  68. 68.

    catclub

    Musk calls Trump’s agenda bill ‘a disgusting abomination’
    Lawmakers react to Musk calling Trump’s agenda bill ‘disgusting abomination’ 2:45

    So will Musk back Democrats who voted against the bill? I haz my doubts.
    Best we can hope for is Musk pouring money into primarying every GOP rep who voted for it. I also haz my doubts.

  69. 69.

    Hoodie

    @catclub: Pretty good guess that Musk doesn’t like the bill because it isn’t psychopathic enough.  That said, his comments have been vague enough to be useful.

  71. 71.

    Another Scott

    @sab: It was both basic research and applied research (and engineering).  Both are essential for progress, and both take decades of sustained effort [eta] and disruptions are extremely counterproductive and expensive, but can be overcome.

    Thanks.

    Best wishes,
    Scott.

  72. 72.

    suzanne

    @Soprano2: That’s the critical part: a ton of people are so overwhelmed by hatred, and have lied to themselves that they can bring down horrible shit without getting splashed.

    But — and I genuinely believe this — at least right now, there’s a mushy middle of people who are politically incoherent, often weirdly and selectively informed, largely hate politics, and they mostly consume lifestyle-ish content. Sometimes they vote, and when they do, their votes are based on feelings and impressions and personality. So…. sometimes we win enough of these people to make the difference.

  73. 73.

    Hoodie

    @sab:  The early space program had a lot of basic science.   For example, my uncle was an Air Force psychologist who worked on a lot of studies as to what characteristics might be valuable for space travel, how people might react to being in space, and how to train them for a mission that a lot of people at the time thought was suicide.

  75. 75.

    sab

    @Enhanced Voting Techniques: A lot of people do want to do civil service jobs out of a sense of civic responsibility and duty. And they often take a significant pay cut compared to what they can get in the private sector.

    Hard to see how those sorts of people would want to work under a Trump type.

  76. 76.

    oldgold

    Trump has not formed an operational administration. Rather, what he is presiding over is a reality TV show. In all respects, it is very similar to The Apprentice.

    The main set of this new reality show being the gilded Oval Office. The new cast being a step down in quality from the original. The script being just as flimsy and crazy, but with a more pronounced mean streak.

  77. 77.

    Hoodie

    @suzanne: Definitely hope that’s true because otherwise I’ll start smoking and drinking more.   Seriously, you’re probably right, most people don’t have a death wish, they just don’t have a lot of situational awareness.  I see that a lot when I’m out driving.

  79. 79.

    Matt McIrvin

    @Hoodie: Americans were mostly all in on the New Deal, regardless of the conservatives of the time warning that it was creeping socialism– until the time came that whites were told they had to share more of the benefits with the Black and the brown. That was the bridge too far.

    And that seems to be a global problem. Almost nobody wants their tax money to help people who are too different from themselves. And there’s always going to be a faction trying to make hay from that. Contract the tribe, make people afraid of Others.

  80. 80.

    Another Scott

    @Hoodie: I had a summer intern job at WPAFB decades ago.  Some guy there gave a seminar on his work contributing to an automated document scanning system that was general enough to read almost any typeface.  (Back in the days of DOS PCs.)

    His talk was on trying to define “B-ness”.  What makes a letter a “b” in left-handed cursive or gothic or Comic Sans or whatever?  He chose it because it had straight parts and round parts and was a good prototype.

    It took decades of basic research work like that by people like him to solve the foundational problems that lead to the cheap software on our phones and PCs to convert scanner images to text.

    Similarly with rockets and satellites and A-One.

    Thanks.

    Best wishes,
    Scott.

  81. 81.

    Ohio Mom

    @RevRick: Why do you think Vought is Trump’s minion rather than the other way around?

    I’ve been assuming Vought is the mastermind and just lets Trump go off on tangents so he can implement Project 2025 in the shadows.

    But I am willing to be corrected.

  83. 83.

    schrodingers_cat

    @Matt McIrvin: America had some popular Nazis during that era including Lindbergh. We tend to look at the past through rose tinted glasses. There were other prominent hatemongers as well. And many of them had large followings.

  84. 84.

    Ohio Mom

    @Another Scott: Just coming up with that question, What is B-ness, is awesome genius.

    I can imagine William Proxmire having a field day with that (if the timing matches his era of Golden Fleece awards and his staffers were aware of the research), which would be just another example of what an ass he was.

  85. 85.

    suzanne

    @Hoodie:

    Seriously, you’re probably right, most people don’t have a death wish, they just don’t have a lot of situational awareness. 

    I observe this all the time. It’s frustrating as hell. But it’s how many people live their lives, and the small portion of me that is kind is sympathetic. I also want to tune the fuck out. That sounds awesome, TBH.

    The thing is, to reach these people, we probably have to do a lot of things we don’t want to do. Select candidates in part based on their “rizz” and likability, and show up on unserious media outlets, and get away from some of the things we’re more comfortable doing.

  86. 86.

    TONYG

    @Hoodie: I’m pretty sure that Musk is opposed to ANYTHING that benefits ordinary people.  Musk is a South African who grew up under apartheid.  He believes that he (and a handful of other “white” multi-billionaires) have superior genes that must be proliferated (hence all the baby-mamas), and that the untermenschen should literally die.  Musk’s little Nazi salute a few months ago was no accident.

  87. 87.

    Another Scott

    @Jeffro:

    You triggered an earworm. Let’s See Action (5:36):

    Let’s see action
    Let’s see people
    Let’s see freedom
    Let’s see who cares

    Take me with you
    When you leave me
    And my shell behind us there
    […]

    Best wishes,
    Scott.

  88. 88.

    Steve LaBonne

    @Ohio Mom: Trump has nothing but oatmeal between his ears. He’s a puppet, easily manipulated by the last person he talked to (which accounts for some of the tariff yo-yoing). Absolutely all the destroying the civil service stuff is 100% Vought.

  89. 89.

    Matt McIrvin

    @schrodingers_cat: My point is, I don’t think social democracy or rule-following or cooperation is really all that alien to Americans. It’s not being racist that is alien to Americans. All the rugged-individualistic propaganda we’ve been fed is really playing on that. It’s the fallback excuse when collective action comes up against racism.

  90. 90.

    Dorothy A. Winsor

    Because some civil service jobs used testing to find good candidates, they were among the best places for women and minorities to get jobs. At least a number of years ago, the percentage of women engineers was higher in these jobs, for instance. That’s probably one reason this administration hates civil service employees

  91. 91.

    Matt McIrvin

    @Steve LaBonne: The dream of destroying the civil service is a thing Newt Gingrich has been talking about for decades–he wanted to do it during the first Trump administration, and he had Trump’s ear. But they weirdly didn’t get around to an actual plan until the bunker days after the 2020 election. It was what they were going to put in place if the January 6 coup succeeded.

  93. 93.

    Another Scott

    @Matt McIrvin: They were trying to push “Schedule F” through Congress for years in 45’s term.  Congress, sensibly, didn’t go along, or didn’t go along quickly enough to get it done.

    Thanks.

    Best wishes,
    Scott.

  94. 94.

    Hoodie

    @Another Scott: My uncle did human factors stuff at Wright Pat in the 60’s and early 70’s.  Second career was at McDonnell Douglas heading a group that did early work on computer based training.

  95. 95.

    Hoodie

    @Matt McIrvin: The GOP program has generally been destroying any centers of gravity (to borrow from Adam) that might resist expansion of their power.  Started with unions, has moved on to teachers, universities and civil servants.  Gingrich’s appearance about marks the time it started to become a revolutionary ideological movement. He probably would have been a Bolshevik in other times and every bit as corrupt.

  96. 96.

    Soprano2

    @suzanne: But — and I genuinely believe this — at least right now, there’s a mushy middle of people who are politically incoherent, often weirdly and selectively informed, largely hate politics, and they mostly consume lifestyle-ish content. Sometimes they vote, and when they do, their votes are based on feelings and impressions and personality. So…. sometimes we win enough of these people to make the difference.

    I believe this too. I can’t tell you how many people have told me they don’t listen to the news or follow politics. Many of them will also say they think they’re all corrupt, so it doesn’t really matter who they vote for. I think if they do vote they vote for the person who they like the most or who they think seems like they can get stuff done. This is a big complaint, that it seems like nothing can ever get fixed.

  97. 97.

    Harrison Wesley

    The unitary executive theory has been around for a while. The urinary executive theory has only appeared with the rise of Trump.

  98. 98.

    Steve LaBonne

    @Hoodie: They openly espouse Putin’s Russia as their model. And we will end up being just as much of an economic, cultural, and even military basket case as Russia is now.

  99. 99.

    Steve LaBonne

    @Soprano2: And Trump has some weird charisma, completely non-apparent to us, that gets some of those people to the polls when nobody else can. I have hope that the post-Trump political landscape will be a bit less hostile, but we will still be facing massive unrepairable damage.

  100. 100.

    Jackie

    O/T, but an interesting read…For those of us yearning to be wined and dined at FFOTUS’s golf clubs…

    One of President Donald Trump’s New Jersey golf clubs received a 32 out of 100 health inspection score in May, the lowest grade in Somerset County, after it was flagged for 18 violations, including all three requirements in the “food protected from contamination” category.

    The Somerset County Department of Health inspected Trump National Golf Club in Bedminster on May 6, according to the report, which is publicly available online.

    The club received a score of 32 out of a 100 possible points, with the inspector documenting 18 violations—nine of which were deemed critical, meaning they “may result in an unacceptable health risk.”

    The club was out of compliance with all three requirements in the “food protected from contamination” category, with violations including expired milk, raw meat stored improperly and a dishwasher that may not reach the required temperature (the first two problems were corrected during the inspection).

    Many, many more health violations at the link:
    https://www.forbes.com/sites/zacheverson/2025/06/04/trump-health-inspection-violations-golf-club-bedminster/

    Also,

    Trump’s Bedminster club continues to serve alcohol nearly a year after New Jersey declined to renew its liquor license, citing questions over whether President Trump’s felony convictions disqualify him under state law. The club has a temporary permit, which is set to expire on June 30.

    What are the odds every single one of FFOTUS’s golf clubs are as disgustingly hazardous to dine at as Bedminster? Makes me doubly happy I’m not a MAGA millionaire!

  101. 101.

    Hoodie

    @Steve LaBonne: It’s funny that they’ve transitioned from espousing laissez faire capitalism and free markets (which, of course, was all bullshit) to what is increasingly sounding like Soviet command economics, e.g., telling Americans what types of jobs they’re supposed to have.   Howard Nutlick sounds like a member of the Politburo talking about the Five Year Plan.

  102. 102.

    Baud

    @Steve LaBonne:

    completely non-apparent to us,

     

    I wouldn’t call it charisma, which is generally a positive attribute, but I can see how his personality is better suited for an entertainment focused society than your usual politician.

  104. 104.

    Hoodie

    @Steve LaBonne: Trump has the same sort of charisma that every MLM or get rich quick marketer has, he’s just at the top of that heap.   He’s telling Americans they’re going to be great, which some of them apparently believe, just like some will believe they’ll get rich selling supplements.  Some do, but most lose their shirts.

  106. 106.

    Matt McIrvin

    @Hoodie: he negs them too. “You’re a loser now, but stick with me and my greatness will rub off and you’ll be great.” Which is interesting because so much of the “woke culture” complaint is about it making white men feel bad, but this guy is straight-up insulting them to their faces– just in the way they accept, I guess. Like a drill instructor or a coach calling them girls and titty babies.

  108. 108.

    comrade scotts agenda of rage

    Good candidates have varying degrees of the “It” factor that’s important, no doubt about it.  Clinton and Obama had “it” on our side.  Like it or not, Hair Furor has a far different kind of “it” factor but it works for that big segment of the electorate.

    The problem is that the same people yammering about how important that and other venues of messaging are also want other people on “our” side to ignore the severe policy differences we have with them and stfu about it, many of which are antithetical to the general ‘good’ of people we’re trying to target.

    And over time, voters see thru that, particularly when much of the crap (D) policies that hurt them come from the state and local level.  Thus, again over time, they see past the “it” factor, assuming we have a candidate with massive amounts of “it” and at best, don’t vote or worse, vote for the other guy with the same ‘shrug’ and say “it can’t be any worse so let’s give him a shot.”

    Sure it can be but again, the low-info/low-motivation voter eventually gets it and no amount of vibe-based bullshit being pitched here to cover up significant splits in this party over policy will get around that.

    I think it was Matt who recently characterized this “ethics of voting” for such voters as:

    They see voting as an expression of personal preference, and consider themselves as morally obligated to treat it that way even if it leads to perverse outcomes. Any perverse outcomes are the fault of the system, not theirs.

  110. 110.

    ArchTeryx

    Sent my comment in, mostly saying that there’s a reason the government hasn’t been run on a patronage system for 150 years, and going back to that now would be an unmitigated disaster.

    Will it make any difference? Probably not a lick. The righties are very well organized to freep stuff like this and we are not, plus, this is for ALL the marbles. Project 2025 cannot be completed unless every single civil servant in the government is replaced by ideologues and hacks. And this is their checkmate move if not stopped. THey’ve gotten all the cabinet position. Now they want to kick out all the civil servants. They go, we don’t have a small-d democratic government any more. We have a fascist organization masquerading as one.

    But considering our luck in stopping ANY aspect of Project 2025 has been precisely zero since the nightmare started, I just don’t have much hope this will be stopped, either. The stakes are far too high for them.

  112. 112.

    Hoodie

    @Matt McIrvin: Well, you see the problem for them is that, ultimately, they know The People suck and need to be remade.   They know this because they’ve been able to take advantage of  them and, in part because of this, they mostly have contempt for them.  The striking thing is the open contempt these guys show toward their own supporters.  They’re actually telling them they want their lives to be dedicated to putting little screws into iPhones.

  113. 113.

    New Deal democrat

    @Jeffro:

    You may recoil at the thought of constitutional failure, but this would not be the first time our Constitution failed; we live in the world established by our original, explosive failure in the 19th century to contain and resolve a vital political question.

    Jamelle Bouie is as usual extremely perceptive and eloquent.

    Constitutional historian Prof. Jack Rakove at UCLA also thinks we have already had Constitutional failure, of the Impeachments Clause, the 14th Amendment Insurrections section, and the whole of Trump vs. US. I would add that the original intent behind the Electoral College has long since failed.

    Some trends take a lifetime or several lifetimes to come to fruition. It is safe to say that over the past 200 years, Congress has allowed its power to wither almost ineluctably, as they punt important questions to the Executive bureaucracy and the Courts; the Presidency has filled that vacuum via the aforesaid bureaucracy; and the Supreme Court has arrogated ever more power to itself, most recently in giving itself discretion to reverse any and all bureaucratic decisions it doesn’t like.

    These problems will not be solved in our lifetimes.

  114. 114.

    Matt McIrvin

    @comrade scotts agenda of rage: I do not buy that better/more equitable policy from Democrats will get us any electoral advantage at all. It will probably hurt us, in fact. If there’s one thing that people who are struggling all seem convinced of, it’s that someone who is even worse off is getting an unfair free ride.

  117. 117.

    Ruckus

    @RevRick:

    BINGO.

    This is what they want, a world that they think (such as it is….) that rotates around the stick they have stuck in an orifrice. They want a monarchy, based upon them being the next great whatever. It is in no way rational, workable or viable, because it’s not a workable government of wealthy nation. It is self destruction for the concept of their greatness, which they have exactly zero of. He of course wants a permeant monarchy in which he is revered but has to do nothing. Which is the only thing he is in any way good at. It is in no way any kind or type of democracy.

  118. 118.

    Hoodie

    @Matt McIrvin: Back in law school I took an elective on law firm organization.  It was kind of a throwaway class but did have few nuggets.  There was some research on the various types of law firms and how they fared as organizations.  The research indicated that firms with high levels of trust and lockstep compensation models outperformed, probably because of reduced transaction costs. However, once that trust dissipated, the eat-what-you-kill firms did better.  My suspicion is that it’s not so much that you are afraid that undeserving people from the other tribe will get something they don’t deserve, but that the other tribe, if in power, will screw you over.

  119. 119.

    Melancholy Jaques

    @Baud:

    I’m morally confident Dems will make everything perfect within two years.

    And if we don’t, it’s a sign that we need to move to the right.

  120. 120.

    Ruckus

    @Jeffro:

    It’s nice to think this way but I’m not sure it is a viable option.

    Now we know that maga and all their BS is unstable, not viable, irrational, far worse than useless, and can break a nation into an untenable mess, because it isn’t about having a rational nation of humans, it is about pure power of the dumbest. And in a modern world the available communications ability can allow any large group to form, even an unstable one that wants to play government but has zero idea how to actually be one that works as a government – even a bad/horrible one, rather than as a kindergarten play group.

  121. 121.

    comrade scotts agenda of rage

    @Matt McIrvin:

    That’s a typical framing reaction when people like me, a tiny minority of self-described Dems in here, say this.

    I didn’t say anything about doing things that come across as giving somebody else a free ride.  I’m talking about doing things for somebody other than entitled white, racially tone-deaf professionals that have been driving party policy for a looong time now and are shocked, shocked I tell you, when black/brown/labor/etc., that typically vote Dem decide to stay home or vote the other way because they don’t see the Party, particularly at the state and local level, as speaking to them or their interests.

    I’ve seen this play out every damned day here in pale blue Denver since I moved back.  As UncleEbeneezer talked about last July, I spend a lot of time keeping my mouth shut in ‘black spaces’ and what they say isn’t what most of the entitled white professional class here think being a Democrat is all about.

  122. 122.

    Melancholy Jaques

    @Steve LaBonne:

    And Trump has some weird charisma, completely non-apparent to us, that gets some of those people to the polls when nobody else can

    They can see that his bigotry, misogyny, and cruelty are genuine and unapologetic. That’s why he beat all the well-funded and highly regarded Republicans in 2016. And it’s why no one else, not even the cruel and stupid DeSantis, could make a dent in his popularity with his voters.

  123. 123.

    Ruckus

    @sab:

    The current Republican approach to government will do the same thing.

    That is of course because the current republican approach to government is to not have a workable one as that stops their rush to a kingdom of stupid. Now this may not be all republicans but it seems to be a rather significant percentage.

  125. 125.

    Professor Bigfoot

    @Baud: “If you can’t take their money, eat their food, drink their liquor, screw their women, and still vote against them, you have no business being up here.” -Jesse Unruh

    It’s not taking the money— it’s offering a quid pro quo that goes against your actual base, or worse, against your principles (assuming, of course, the pol in question has any…)

  126. 126.

    JML

    @Matt McIrvin: Yeah, they’ve managed to convince people who are struggling that someone else is getting extra help and that they’re undeserving. But it’s not so much that the other person is worse off, it’s that they’re “undeserving” and supposedly now being elevated above the disgruntled other person “unfairly”.

    The people with all the cookies have managed to get those who are really struggling to fight over the crumbs…

  128. 128.

    suzanne

    @Steve LaBonne:

    And Trump has some weird charisma, completely non-apparent to us, that gets some of those people to the polls when nobody else can. 

    This is true.
    Keep in mind that some people watch fake wrestling, they watch cars drive around in circles, they listen to Florida Georgia Line and Kid Rock. All of these things make me want to stand in a closet and hit my head with a hammer, but I can observe that there is appeal.

  129. 129.

    JML

    @Steve LaBonne: The Current Occupant tells these people that it’s not their fault, that some disfavored class of people is really responsible. he lies and says he’ll fix it so they can all be successful like him.

    It’s literally the end from The American President.

  130. 130.

    Professor Bigfoot

    @Hoodie: Let’s not forget the “prosperity gospel” megachurch preachers. They love them some Trump, too.

  131. 131.

    Melancholy Jaques

    @comrade scotts agenda of rage:

    when black/brown/labor/etc., that typically vote Dem decide to stay home or vote the other way because they don’t see the Party, particularly at the state and local level, as speaking to them or their interests.

    Two questions.

    If you talk to the white voters who vote for Republicans, they will tell you that the Democrats only care about blacks, Latinos, LGBTQA, trans, immigrants, etc. What do you think accounts for the apparently incomprehensibly inconsistent perceptions of us Democrats?

    With respect to the constituencies you believe stay home because Democrats don’t do what they want, what are the top three things Democrats have not done?

    The latter question matters to many of us Democrats because we just had the most liberal president since LBJ, the first president to walk a picket line. And our candidate was a woman of African and South Asian heritage. And those constituencies, by all reports, stayed home.

  132. 132.

    Ruckus

    @Enhanced Voting Techniques:

    It isn’t because the work is bad it is because it is repetitive.

    In modern manufacturing you do the same thing over and over and over and……

    In modern legislation, it is fighting those that want to go backasswards 2 or 3 hundred years because that had to be better. And that makes no sense whatsoever other than they think they would have been on top then. And they might have been. But notice that most of the world including humanity has changed just a tad over the last 2-3 hundred years. And going backasswards wouldn’t even be workable. But try and explain that to an idiot. Good luck.

  133. 133.

    comrade scotts agenda of rage

    I don’t have an answer to the first one.

    As for the second one, I have a laundry list of things but much of it comes down to domestic policy as pushed by people seen as representing the left ala Ezra Broder Klein/MattY/etc., that only benefits basically the Totebagger demographic.  Constant push for “school choice”, policies that accelerate displacement/gentrification and more.

    This is a good discussion to have and I wish I had more formulated, ie. already written, answers.

    Much of what Biden did quite frankly didn’t “trickle down” (and I get the irony in that statement and by no means does it mean he espoused trickle down the way most of the Dem party does) to the people that stayed home.  Or, and we’ve flogged this dead horse before, if it did, it wasn’t communicated well enough.

  135. 135.

    Matt McIrvin

    @suzanne: the most thing to me: last I heard, pro wrestling fandom leaned far more liberal/Dem than you’d expect.

    Liberal YouTuber Steve Shives is a huge wrestling fan. I don’t understand it but I guess I’ll take it.

  136. 136.

    suzanne

    @Matt McIrvin: I would be willing to bet that all of those things I listed have strong appeal on both sides of the political aisle.

    The vast majority of people just don’t care that much about politics.

  137. 137.

    Matt McIrvin

    @comrade scotts agenda of rage: like I’ve mentioned before, Mekka Okereke over on Mastodon insists that more Black men stayed home or voted for Trump because Biden presided over (and, he argues, endorsed and promoted) a post-George Floyd increase in police brutality.

    But I still don’t know how you fight that in a material way without alienating other parts of the coalition. “Tough on crime” bullshit plays well with the median white voter.

  138. 138.

    Miss Bianca

    @Matt McIrvin: If these guys voted for Trump expecting a *decline* in police brutality against Black people during is administration, I have a feeling they are going to be disappointed.

  139. 139.

    Matt McIrvin

    @Miss Bianca: Of course. But that’s kind of comrade Scott’s point, that at some point some people will vote destructively for the greater evil just to hurt the people who are feeding them a shit sandwich. Same with people who voted for Trump over Gaza, etc.

  140. 140.

    Ruckus

    @Melancholy Jaques:

    Don’t forget that some of this is that he is supposedly wealthy and therefore must be smart, because of course it takes brains to make the kind of money they think he has. Otherwise they’d have that much money too. They fail to realize that most of the money he has he inherited from his father, who made money by renting out property in NYC and surrounding and that most of that property was purchased at much lower costs than in today’s world.

  141. 141.

    gvg

    @Bostondreams: I hope interm President Fuchs health and energy hold up because he is better than anyone we can get through right now. The key is to replace the governor. Even the legislators aren’t as bad, they don’t seem as activist unless they have a strange leader. I hope we get lucky by the time our election happens.

  142. 142.

    RevRick

    @Steve LaBonne: @Baud:

    When asked why they are so enamored of Trump, a lot of MAGA will respond that he tells it like it is. That he’s honest.
    I know, that boggles my mind too.

    But what they mean is he is unafraid to say ugly, mean, sexist, racist stuff. He doesn’t couch his language, but fills the working class notion of no-holds-barred bravery. He validates their belief that this is their country.

    Now MAGA is notorious for being eager to dish it out, but not being able to take it.

  145. 145.

    Miss Bianca

    @Matt McIrvin: See, that’s a mentality I honestly don’t get. And one that conservatives don’t seem to fall prey to. Perhaps it’s a different alignment of priorities. When was the last time you heard a Republican voter say, “I’m so disgusted that the X Administration didn’t hurt enough of the right people that I’m voting for the Democrats”?/

  146. 146.

    Matt McIrvin

    @Miss Bianca: I think I do get it. I don’t condone it, but I understand it.

    The other side sometimes loses votes to Libertarians over this kind of thing, but it’s less common. I think their side is the burn-it-down side in the first place so you wouldn’t get fiery revenge on them by voting for someone less destructive.

  147. 147.

    Matt McIrvin

    (I have to admit, I’m morbidly fascinated with a lot of extreme and perverse political behavior, I think because I am both naturally anxious and attracted to cognitive dissonance and paradox. In technical fields, ruminating over the contradictions in the system is how you root out problems and clarify distinctions. In human affairs it is often not that useful.)

  149. 149.

    comrade scotts agenda of rage

    @Matt McIrvin:

    “Tough on crime” bullshit plays well with the median white voter.

    That we agree on.  It plays well with the median white voter on both sides of the aisle as well.  It’s just that (D) candidates couch it in banal, progressive-sounding language.  It’s Lee Atwater dog whistles from the center to the center.

    Whereas now in MAGA GOP land, they just say it straight up and then some.

  150. 150.

    artem1s

    @sab: ​ 

    She says it will take twenty years to fix this

    I work in research administration and would say we still have small window to reverse course. I think the event horizon is partially dependent on what parts of the Big Pimply Bill actually make it thru the Senate. This summer will be a bell weather for fall enrollment. How many of the accepted students actually show up is the real question. If the U’s lose overhead and tuition revenue that’s pretty much the ballgame for the small/midsize private colleges. They can only downsize and incentivize so many staff and faculty to take early retirement before they have to shut their doors. Once that cascade starts it’s going to be a lot like the Savings and Loan collapse. All the small communities that rely on those campuses for jobs and tax revenue will become ghost towns. The state’s won’t have enough in their rainy day funds to deal with it. Education is a multi-billion dollar industry and you can’t create that kind of black hole in the economy without repercussions. And that’s nothing compared to the collapse of health care and insurance industry which will be inevitable when there is double digit unemployment. Right now I think the event horizon is around Sept/Oct and it is coming up fast.

  151. 151.

    Paul in KY

    @Melancholy Jaques: To me, no matter what you think of the Dem candidate, you go to vote AGAINST the evil GQPers that will have us all as serfs if they get their way.

    Their fee fees will be the death of us all…

  153. 153.

    Paul in KY

    @Matt McIrvin: It’s called ‘cutting off your nose to spite your face’.

    It’s as stupid now as it was 2,000 years ago. Probably more stupid now.

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