I’m co-leading a bill that would name the House Press Gallery after Frederick Douglass. It passed the House today.
This isn’t just symbolic – it’s making sure our history isn’t erased.— Congressman André Carson (@carson.house.gov) June 9, 2025 at 9:27 PM
===
Frederick Douglass was the first Black man to report on Congress and be allowed into the Capitol press gallery, covering critical debates during reconstruction.
It’s past time for a permanent recognition of his groundbreaking and legendary work.— Congressman André Carson (@carson.house.gov) June 9, 2025 at 9:27 PM
Republicans BURIED a line in their "big beautiful bill" that would help Trump officials ignore court orders.
One problem? It violates the Senate's rules.
I’m going to fight to strip this provision out. And we need everyone in the fight against this bill.— Elizabeth Warren (@warren.senate.gov) June 9, 2025 at 10:02 AM
While some states are taking away the rights of our LGBTQ+ community, we're protecting them here in our state.
Illinois will always be a beacon of equality and hope for all. There's still work to do, but we have your back.— Governor JB Pritzker (@govpritzker.illinois.gov) June 9, 2025 at 3:13 PM
Today, the Democratic Veterans Caucus was launched to fight back against the Trump Administration’s vile tactics against veterans.
This launch comes amid his senseless use of the National Guard in Los Angeles, which is endangering both civilians and Guardsmen.— Rep. Gil Cisneros (@cisneros.house.gov) June 9, 2025 at 7:31 PM
Yesterday, I went with @repespaillat.bsky.social to the Jacob Javits Federal Building to investigate reported inhumane, unjust treatment of immigrants.
ICE blocked my oversight visit, violating my rights as a Member of Congress.
I will keep working to expose abuse & hold ICE accountable.— Rep. Nydia Velázquez (@velazquez.house.gov) June 9, 2025 at 6:44 PM
For those who live elsewhere, this is the heart of downtown #LosAngeles. My friends are here. My union is here (sup @wgawest.bsky.social). My teenager is here. People are passing out pastries & singing & praying. All we want is for our neighbors not to be kidnapped off the streets.
— Aiyana White (@aiyanaewhite.bsky.social) June 9, 2025 at 4:38 PM
California union leader David Huerta has been released from federal custody on a $50,000 bond. Huerta was arrested Friday while protesting immigration raids in Los Angeles.
— The Associated Press (@apnews.com) June 9, 2025 at 8:00 PM
There’s been a lot written about the reactionary backlash to the 2020 protests but not enough about how much of Trump’s current shtick is driven by that night he got scared and had to hide in the basement.
— Philip Bump (@pbump.com) June 9, 2025 at 6:36 PM
On The Road – Hoodie – British Columbia Loop 2024
Baud
Thanks, AL.
Chetan Murthy
Counterpoint: Dems eating Trump’s shit: jonathancohn.medium.com/a-tale-of-two-resolutions-75-dems-join-gop-in-resolution-praising-trumps-mas…
75 Dem Reps eating Trump’s shit. Ugh.
ETA: the resolution is couched as all about the Boulder terrorist attack. But there’s no reason to include praise for ICE in such a thing. This is a typical tactic of the G(r)OPer thugs: forcing Dems to sign onto something they don’t like, by wrapping it in something they’re forced to agree with. Fucking spineless invertebrates.
Matt McIrvin
@Chetan Murthy: Seth Moulton being a douche again, I see. I’m just outside his district.
Baud
@Matt McIrvin:
My understanding is that by being a douche, he represents his district well.
MagdaInBlack
I’m glad to see Senator Warren read the bill, unlike others who shall remain brainless ( yes, I’m looking at you, Rep. Taylor Green)
Suzanne
@Chetan Murthy: Ugh. Thank you for sharing. Very happy to see my rep’s name is not on that list. I’m glad she didn’t fall for this.
Chetan Murthy
@Matt McIrvin: Look at the other names on the list. Swallwell. Suha Subramanyam. Sharice Davids. LUCY MCBATH! Jared Moskowitz. Joe Neguse. EUGENE VINDMAN! Frederica WIlson.
Baud
John Cole’s brother from another mother wears a T-shirt.
Dr. Jakyll and Miss Deride
The 75 also include a number of people who have been singled out for praise on this blog, including Steve Cohen (TN),, Sharice Davids (KS), Marcy Kaptur (OH), Raj Krishnamoorthi (IL), Lucy McBath (GA), Jared Moskowitz (FL), Joe Neguse (CO), Eric Swalwell (CA), and Eugene Vindman (VA). Not all of those people are known for being cowardly or “moderate.” So what gives?
Chetan Murthy
@Baud: Mmmmm …. don’t read the comments: too many of ’em are from MAGAts.
Baud
@Chetan Murthy:
The first ones I get are positive. But the comment order appears different for everyone. And some threads are mixed bags.
eclare
@Chetan Murthy:
Damn. My rep, who usually votes the right way, voted for it.
Chetan Murthy
@eclare: remember when that idiot Schumer got backed into a corner and was forced to fund the government? This smells like that.
eclare
@Baud:
That shirt is awesome! And yes, that is def Cole’s brother from another mother.
eclare
@Chetan Murthy:
Could be. Also Cohen is Jewish, so maybe that factored into it. But the article said Jewish reps split 10-10 yes vs no, so other Jewish reps didn’t fall for it.
Chetan Murthy
@eclare: Three names shocked me the most:
Swalwell: b/c Bay Area
McBath: b/c she has the most visceral reasons to not fall for this shit
Vindman: same
Another Scott
@Dr. Jakyll and Miss Deride: It sucks being in the minority. What matters is beating the monsters to get the majority back. “Just win, baby.”
Meanwhile, …
Detonating a 81 Gt nuclear device could cause a global catastrophe if done improperly.
Yeah??
Cheryl isn’t impressed and tells us why.
Best wishes,
Scott.
Betty Cracker
@Dr. Jakyll and Miss Deride: Sometimes otherwise good pols fall for stupid shit. Sometimes pols I personally find repellent are righteous on an issue. For example, Newsom is roasting the hell out of red state hypocrites who scaremonger about crime in CA from their own toxic, crime-ridden states. Yet he did that dumb podcast with Charlie Kirk and threw trans people under the bus.
Baud
@Another Scott:
All you need to know.
Jeffro
@Chetan Murthy: I’m still surprised Dems haven’t learned to simply say, “of COURSE we condemn anti-Semitism, that’s why we were so appalled at trump’s ‘very fine people on both sides’ statement and his dinner with Nick Fuentes”
not hard
MagdaInBlack
@Betty Cracker: So, Betty… I see you have David Jolly running for Gov down there. Thoughts, please? (if you’ve had your coffee and are fired up)
Matt McIrvin
@Dr. Jakyll and Miss Deride: Well, the worst aspect of it is just a nonbinding motherhood-statement kind of a thing, and in relatively tough districts they may have felt they couldn’t vote against it in the aftermath of a horrifying act of violence. But my rep notably didn’t vote for it (this district is very immigrant-heavy and targeted by ICE raids constantly).
Matt McIrvin
@Baud: Amesbury and Newburyport are nice places to visit, and vote very blue, but, y’know. Super duper white, even compared to Haverhill.
Betty Cracker
@MagdaInBlack: If Jolly wins the FL Dems nomination, I’ll vote for him in the general because he’ll be miles better than whatever horrifying toady the FL GOP horks up. I hope I have a better choice than Repub Lite in the primary though, and I also hope Jolly is not the second coming of Charlie Crist if he does take the nomination. FL Repubs and right-leaning Indys will pick the real Repub every time.
geg6
@Suzanne:
Looks like mine is standing tall, too. I was a little afraid to look but I shouldn’t have been. Deluzio has been stellar lately.
Dorothy A. Winsor
I’ve been invited to go to a No Kings rally on Saturday. As you may know, it’s one of hundreds of rallies organized by Indivisible. I’m looking at the videos of govt overreaction in LA and wondering how these other rallies will go.
Professor Bigfoot
@Dr. Jakyll and Miss Deride: Remember, these are Democrats and we have absolutely no reason whatsoever to give them any benefit of the doubt whatsoever.
They must be denounced! There is absolutely NO REASON why they should do anything like this; there cannot be something we don’t see or some political movement inside the House that we’re not aware of; we just know that we have to turn on Democrats at a moments notice.
NOW!!
Baud
@Betty Cracker:
What type of candidate do you think has the best chance of actually winning?
schrodingers_cat
@Professor Bigfoot: Yep Democrats have to be flawless when Rs are lawless. Except when they are Berner Spawn, then they can vote against Biden’s initiatives. It shows their independence. As does BS dissing HRC at her own nominating convention. Oh and shouting about rigged elections when you don’t win.
If she had won we wouldn’t be in Trump 2.0.
Thanks for nothing shouty finger wagger.
rikyrah
Good Morning, Everyone😊😊😊
Baud
@rikyrah:
Good morning.
Baud
@Dorothy A. Winsor:
I expect turnout will be even higher than it otherwise would have been.
comrade scotts agenda of rage
@Dr. Jakyll and Miss Deride:
…and many of us criticize those same kind of Democrats and the caucus they’re in.
Meaning there’s a lot of familiar names in that who’s who list of “more, not better” Dems.
But one jumped out at me, Steny Hoyer. That one falls into the ‘WTF’ category.
Also too, any Dem in a district they won last year by, oh, 14 points or, and I’m not making this up, 40 points, as two from here did, have *no* business voting for crap like this as they don’t have the excuse about needing to be an (R) Lite to get elected.
prostratedragon
As night follows the day,
..
Gvg
Just win. We are a way too small minority and don’t have the votes to be perfect on every issue. Don’t go looking for things to get riled up about inside the tent, concentrate on keeping the coalition together and growing. Attack outside. Consider theses things in primary season but always with an eye to winning the general and how it looks to normies.
if I was forced to vote for something like this as a politician, my honest answer would be “I lied to protect vulnerable constituents “ but I guess they couldn’t say that till after they retired.
zhena gogolia
@Professor Bigfoot: I know. sigh.
NotMax
Anecdata from local Target store.
Bananas : 37 cents each for a long, long time. Yesterday, 55 cents each,
zhena gogolia
@NotMax: We need to start manufacturing them in America!!!
Baud
@NotMax:
Good. That’ll promote more banana plants in the US.
ETA: Shakes fist at zhena.
Harrison Wesley
@Baud: Also creating lots of banana technician jobs.
Chetan Murthy
@NotMax: Huh. Local Safeway, organic bananas 39c each. I don’t remember prices being much different for a long time. OTOH, organic boneless chicken thighs have doubled since pre-pandemic.
Baud
@Harrison Wesley:
I blame Biden for the lack of banana repairmen.
UncleEbeneezer
@Chetan Murthy: So a purely performative bill that effectively does nothing? I’m sorry I just can’t get worked up about this.
UncleEbeneezer
@Professor Bigfoot: Must…find…a reason…to bash Dems…(repeat ad infinitum, especially during election years)
Geminid
Axios just posted an article by Barak Ravid titled: “Scoop: Trump held lengthy Camp David strategy session with top team on Iran and Gaza”:
Ravid says Trump, VP Vance, special envoy Steve Witkoff, SecState Rubio, SecDef Hegseth, CIA Director Ratcliffe, DNI Gabbard and Chief of Staff Sudan Wiles attended. A “senior official” described the talks generally:
The article gives some background on the nuclear talks and the war in Gaza but conveys little of the substance of the meetings.
As to the Iran talks, back in April Trump set a two month deadline for a result that expires this Thursday. Talks will continue into a sixth round this weekend though, with the venue not yet determined.
Iran’s latest response to U.S. demands has been described as “No, but….”
Separately, Special Envoy for Syria (and Ambassador to Turkiye) Tom Barrack met with Rubio and Trump on Saturday. Barrack seems to be running Syria policy for now, which could be a good thing.
Baud
@Geminid:
I don’t believe Trump participated for hours in serious talks with his team.
NotMax
@zhena gogolia
Good thing little Eric doesn’t live in the U.S., huh?
;)
Spanky
@Baud:
Why, that means he’s an expert in everything!
Professor Bigfoot
@UncleEbeneezer: Don’t you get it?
ANYTHING is a good reason to turn on Democrats, because Democrats are feckless and useless and really, why would any intelligent person actually support them?
Betty Cracker
@Baud: I don’t know. It’s possible Jolly could be the guy. I’m not convinced he’s the second coming of Crist; it’s just something I worry about. But I think lots of folks viewed Crist as a phony and a side-switcher because he had previously served as the GOP gov, ran as GOP senator and switched to indy when Marco Rubio won the primary. He had a lot of baggage to overcome that Jolly, who is less known statewide, doesn’t necessarily have.
The Dem who came closest to winning a gubernatorial race this century was Andrew Gillum, who was unapologetically a Dem, so that’s a data point. Gillum was also kind of a crook, though not on a GOP scale. I don’t know how much of a factor that was. Also, the state is redder now.
TL;DR — I don’t know! ;-)
Betty Cracker
@Baud: I don’t either. I think Susie Wiles is the real president.
Professor Bigfoot
@Betty Cracker: I knew Gillum had issues, but a crook? What did he do?
(though OBVIOUSLY, as you say, nowhere near the scale of GOP SOP, but still!)
ETA- that’s one spot of perfection that I DO demand of Dems— I really don’t care what drugs you took, I care about what money you took and from whom. “If you can’t take their money, eat their food, drink their booze, screw their women and vote against them anyway, you shouldn’t be up here.” (apologies to Jesse Unruh, but I think he was 100% correct— money is the mother’s milk of politics)
Geminid
@Baud: Trump probably sat in periodically. He seems to have confidence in Witkoff, Rubio and Wiles. The others might not be so influential. My guess is Wiles is the “senior official” Ravid quoted in the article
O. Felix Culpa
I’m not going to take the bait and get my knickers in a knot over a meaningless vote that nobody knows or cares about. [Dems R Doing it Rong: take billionty gazillion.] It’s possible we might have some slightly bigger issues to be concerned about.
eclare
@Betty Cracker:
Susie and Stephen Miller.
JWR
Monday afternoon’s Background Briefing with Ian Masters was quite good! It was all about the situation in Los Angeles. I listened to them in reverse order, because I find Barbara Walter to be such a compelling speaker, but they’re all good.
Also, how would this work for a chant of sorts? “Melt ICE!”? No?
Ben Cisco
@Chetan Murthy: Terri Sewell – sigh
schrodingers_cat
@Spanky: If they are white that’s enough.
I have been lectured on Balloon Juice about the intricacies of student and work visas and green cards by people who read about it in Daily Kos and the media.
comrade scotts agenda of rage
@Baud:
I don’t believe the team engaged in hours of serious talks…unless you define “serious” as being talks conducted by 16-year-old boys about anything.
I read the annotated SignalGate transcripts and the level of “seriousness” in those talks was telling, namely that these people are worser than anything that’s come before them.
Geminid
@eclare: I suspect Steven Miller’s “portfolio” is much more limited than Wiles’.
Baud
@JWR:
“The liberals have HEAT RAYS!!!”
Soprano2
@Chetan Murthy: Do you really have to use the #2 post in this thread to shit on Democrats? They are never going to be pure enough for you. Sometimes people vote for performative bills like this as self-protection. Few people will care about it later. There’s enough awful stuff to be upset about without looking for reasons to be upset at Democrats.
Soprano2
@Baud: I agree, he probably texted, posted and napped through most of the meeting.
Harrison Wesley
@Betty Cracker: I liked Gillum. I know he was accused of corruption, but I never heard what happened after that.
Nelle
@Dorothy A. Winsor: I just saw that there will be a “No Kings” rally in a tiny town north of here. I was planning to go to tge big one in downtown Des Moines, but am thinking of going to the smaller one, partly to show support for rural Iowa, partly because more rallies everywhere is a way to stymie a unified, militarized response to protests. Plus I dislike huge crowds. Just saw an emergency protest called for tonight. How much energy do we, ages 74 and 81, have?
lowtechcyclist
@Betty Cracker:
I’m greatly amused by this turn of phrase.
Betty Cracker
@Professor Bigfoot: Gillum was accused of some low-level grifting that a Repub would never be charged for — stuff like free trips and Broadway show tickets, etc. I believe GOP political operatives made a mountain out of that molehill to sandbag Gillum in the governor’s race, and the charges were ultimately dismissed, IIRC, so fuck them for tampering with an election in addition to being monumentally corrupt sumbitches themselves! But Gillum’s explanations for the alleged misconduct had a strong whiff of bullshit, IMO.
Glory b
@Soprano2: Right. Besides, if Schumer let the government shut down, all the fired/laid off employee lawsuits would have been dismissed, relieving Trump of a large number of lawsuits.
Maybe we don’t know all the ins & outs of the law like we think we do.
Geminid
@comrade scotts agenda of rage: Those SignalGate discussions were a different group, under different circumstances. The participants were basically “kibbitzing,” watching CENTCOM execute a policy decision and gossiping about it.
comrade scotts agenda of rage
@Nelle:
The geographic spread of protests in Iowa is impressive given the political nature of the state:
nokings.org/#map
I compare that to here in CO and there’s a literal wall that tracks N-S along I-25 and there ain’t nothing to the east of it. Sure, that’s the godforsakeneasternplainsofcolorado but there are places there of equivalent size to many of those hosting events in rurl IA.
comrade scotts agenda of rage
@Geminid:
I don’t assume those people can converse much above that level.
Betty Cracker
@Harrison Wesley: I was happy to vote for him, and he damn near pulled it off. He would have been a better governor than DeSantis for sure.
JerseyBeard
Primary day here in Jersey and I have no clue who to vote for. Anyone here know much about the candidates? Will be doing my research in between meetings today. Too many Wall St knob-slobbers in the Jersey Dem party. We are not the same.
sab
@Soprano2: Agreed. My excellent congressperson already has misleading and outright lying ads running against her for voting No when the main bill sucked and details within it were okay. She certainly doesn’t need another no on a performative vote to be used against her. So I give her a pass.
Geminid
@comrade scotts agenda of rage: I don’t assume that either, but I don’t assume the opposite which I think you are doing.
Anyway, we can judge these meetings by their results in coming weeks.
Matt McIrvin
@Dorothy A. Winsor: They won’t be able to raid them all, and if they’re anything like the April and May protests, a lot of aging white people are going to show up– which makes the optics look bad even on Fox if the goons come in swinging. My guess is, the vast majority of these are going to come and go peacefully. Which isn’t to say there won’t be some incident in a big city that they can splash all over the news.
schrodingers_cat
@Matt McIrvin: Burning cars and one guy waving a Mexican flag gave the Fox News the visuals they were seeking
People who marched in Satyagrahas against the British or in the Jim Crow south were disciplined and underwent training. The purpose of these mass protests is to win over normies sitting on the sidelines. Not to bathe in one’s own sense of moral rectitude.
lowtechcyclist
@Glory b:
Well, I certainly don’t, so please explain this stuff to me. If an employee was fired or laid off before or even during the shutdown, that firing doesn’t stop being a real thing just because its main consequence, the loss of income, is delayed for the duration of the shutdown.
Also, if the worker is fired, presumably benefits such as health coverage cease at the time of firing, while (speaking from experience) they continue during a shutdown. So a shutdown doesn’t make everything moot.
Professor Bigfoot
@Betty Cracker: Ah, I got you. Sorta “venial sins” as compared to the typical Republican behavior.
Oh well, gotta be twice as clean, too.
Jeffro
@Betty Cracker: Wiles, Miller, and Vought
Professor Bigfoot
@Glory b: What kills me is the utter unwillingness to extend ANY KIND of “benefit of the doubt” to Democratic politicians by ANYONE.
I learned as a young engineer that however hard our little team worked on our little piece of the system, there were things we simply weren’t aware of. It wasn’t fecklessness that deleted our work, it was pragmatic reality— however our little feelings were hurt.
Geminid
@O. Felix Culpa: This isn’t the first attempt by Republicans to drive a wedge into the Democratic coalition, and it won’t be the last. There are plenty of Democrats and Democrat-adjacent shit-stirrers who will try to help them drive it, but I sure won’t.
O. Felix Culpa
I thought this was an interesting take on the theater of protest by Peter Coyote:
suzanne
@geg6: I am mostly pretty pleased with Deluzio. He’s a big step up from Conor Lamb!
If I ever relocate about six blocks to the south, I’ll land in that district, so I watch with interest!
Geminid
@lowtechcyclist: That prospective government shutdown was a trap, and I’m glad Shumer and the other Dem Senators did not fall for it.
schrodingers_cat
@O. Felix Culpa: Yes same with the satyagrahas against the Empire in pre-independence India.
They Call Me Noni
@schrodingers_cat:
If she had won we wouldn’t be in Trump 2.0.
If election outcomes were not determined by the EC we wouldn’t be in Trump 2.0.
I will bitch about this until my dying day and then I want it put on my tombstone.
WaterGirl
Are we turning on our own peeps here at Balloon Juice, calling them out for shitting on Democrats, because they have a different view on a particular action? I mean, how do we as a collective decide whether something is important enough to be allowed to call them out on something? (Narrator: that’s not possible, so why try to enforce group think?)
I know we’re all super stressed – I know I am – but we used to be a lot better here about disagreeing with one another without doing this.
This feels like we keep dipping back into the BJ civil war in July – where you are the enemy if you hold a different view on something that really matters to you.
We criticize Dems nationally for not sticking together, and here we are roasting one of our own.
Speaking as a just a commenter on this blog, I think that nearly a year of this is more than enough. How does the party accept that not every Democrat agrees on everything when sometimes it seems like we don’t seem to be able to accept that on this blog?
One thing I have always loved about BJ is that one commenter will say something, and I might find that I agree with their point of view, and then another commenter responds with a different way of looking at it, and I might think that has merit. Exposing multiple sides of an issue is great, I think, as long as we’re not attacking each other.
This thread:
That looks like the equivalent of taking a bunch of photos and turning them into a 360 degree view of an event.
That’s a good thing, the best of Balloon Juice. If we could only learn to do this again with less smacking down when someone poses an alternate view.
edit: To be clear, I am using this thread as an example of something bigger that I find worrisome, not criticizing any particular person or comment on this thread.
Cheryl from Maryland
@Nelle:
Here in Maryland just North of DC, the plan is to NOT be downtown but have multiple small rallies across Montgomery County. I’ll be at one which plans to line the main road which goes through the county to DC. We will be on public sidewalks, not areas which are public property or require a permit.
Eural Joiner
@JWR: thanks for posting – wasn’t aware of that site and it looks really good :)
Matt McIrvin
@comrade scotts agenda of rage: I was gonna say that part of Colorado is basically more Nebraska Panhandle… but then I looked at the Panhandle and holy shit, there are protests happening in Scottsbluff, Alliance and Chadron. I cannot imagine. Even if it’s three people showing up, that’s something.
zhena gogolia
@WaterGirl: I don’t see anyone attacking anyone personally in this thread. Everyone is entitled to express their opinion. Some of us have the opinion that jumping on a post that was praising Democrats to immediately dump on Democrats is counter-productive. We’re entitled to say so.
JWR
@Baud: BahZZzZRT! Melt, Nazi, melt!
zhena gogolia
I personally have found the tone of the comments here much healthier since certain commenters left in a huff. Just my opinion. I see lots of disagreement but very little bullying or sealioning.
O. Felix Culpa
@Geminid: I appreciate that (among many other things) about you. Far too many on “our” side seem just as susceptible to rage-bait as the MAGAs. We have to wean ourselves off of the purity litmus tests and focus on whether the best possible action in a set of lousy options is being taken when it really matters.
Professor Bigfoot
@O. Felix Culpa: First, thank you for that link. “This is the way!”
But—
Are Americans* willing to accept leadership from Black people? Willing to actually emulate the successful methods of those days?
I despair that they will not.
Glory b
@lowtechcyclist: Because if the government shuts down for 30 days (something I think the Republicans would have rolled with), the president has the ability to lay off as many federal government employees as he sees fit.
So Trump could argue that even if their initial separation violated the Civil service laws, he has the authority to separate them after the 30th day of a shutdown.
Geminid
@Geminid: I forgot to include a link to the Axios article. Here it is, for those interested:
axios.com/2025/06/10/trump-camp-david-iran-gaza-meeting
Ed. Like I said, not much of substance was revealed. The background is useful for those trying to follow these two stories.
Another Scott
@O. Felix Culpa: Very good.
Popehat had a few suggestions as well.
Eyes on the prizes.
Strength and courage to everyone in the trenches.
Best wishes,
Scott.
comrade scotts agenda of rage
@O. Felix Culpa:
#5 is particularly important from the imaging/messaging standpoint.
I’m harkening back to the BLM protests here. We went during the day and you could honestly tell who the proverbial shit stirrers were gonna be at night. And when you talked to them, they made it very clear what they were there for and it wasn’t the nice, polite approach of the black folks during the civil rights protests. And sure enough, we had our rioting in the evenings and when that happened, I’m sure some general support across the racial spectrum, evaporated. The two retired black ladies I was walking with every morning certainly changed their minds about the general nature of BLM protests after what they say first hand from the rioters.
That’s been absent to date pushing back on this red tide. Big crowds, entirely different vibe. I’m really hoping the rally this weekend is as diverse as the first one in Denver one whereas the ones we’ve been to since, to include the big AOC/Sanders really have been largely white.
O. Felix Culpa
@WaterGirl: Oh no! People are disagreeing–politely, with reasons given–on a politics blog! Seriously? We get to object when someone says something we think is off-base.
ETA: What zg said, more politely, on 92 and 94.
JML
@Professor Bigfoot: it’s where purity politics meets the DC political media. There’s been a cottage industry for over 30 years now where the easiest way you could get yourself into the paper, on tv, etc was to crap all over the Democrats. Passed gun control legislation? Yeah, but it could have been better. Got the ACA done? Didn’t have Medicare For All in it, so you failed. Too many democrats would rather complain about what wasn’t done than celebrate what has been accomplished. And when you can make yourself a star by crapping on your own, people will naturally follow the path.
I’ll never be a fan of prioritizing dumping on your friends and allies, especially when there are so many enemies out there. Especially because you will always find something to disagree with from every candidate and politician until the candidate is you.
O. Felix Culpa
@Professor Bigfoot: Honestly, I’m not sure that black people should lead at this moment in history…because they would be putting themselves at terrible risk of violence by Trump and the MAGA goons. White people should learn from and emulate the principles of the Satyagraha and Civil Rights movements, but whether they will, I dunno.
Professor Bigfoot
@JML: Right?
For me that applies to ANYONE’S humanity and right to exist. Ain’t nobody free ‘til everybody is free.
gene108
@JerseyBeard:
Being from South Jersey, my inclination was to vote for Sweeney, but he wants NJ law enforcement to work with ICE. That’s a deal breaker for me.
I don’t think the two mayors that are running, Fulop and Baraka, will not work well with the state legislature. This was Corzine’s problem.
I think Gottheimer’s too much a shill for Wall Street types in the state, even though the last two Democratic governors were Goldman Sachs executives, and they’ve been fairly progressive.
I think between Sherrill and Spiller, Sherrill has a better organization to pull off a statewide race. Spiller is very dependent on the backing of his union.
Edit: Summary of the candidates from WHYY.
whyy.org/articles/new-jersey-election-2025-primary-governor-democrat/
O. Felix Culpa
@Another Scott: Thanks for this. Also helpful. I think that Coyote’s point #2 about how to respond to the 5% violent asshole factor could be an effective strategy.
Professor Bigfoot
@O. Felix Culpa: You’re right, of course— “that’s what I meant, though, really!” ;)
Shalimar
Substance really doesn’t matter on foreign policy in a Trump administration meeting. Yes, there are war hawks and Israel supporters who care deeply and they were there, but the majority of this administration are isolationists who just do not give a crap about foreign countries.
Another Scott
Meanwhile, the GQP House majority will shrink a bit more soon. RollCall.com:
Heh. Rules, schmules, amirite??!
Popehat:
Eyes on the prizes.
Best wishes,
Scott.
O. Felix Culpa
@Professor Bigfoot: I guessed that might be what you meant. :)
Also, speaking as a wypipo, “we” (writ large) created this problem and I think it’s on “us” to fix it. I don’t blame black folks one bit if they choose to sit this one out.
schrodingers_cat
@Professor Bigfoot: @O. Felix Culpa: The resisters to Trump’s reign of error should lean into their patriotism. Wave American flags.
Belafon
@Chetan Murthy: When does this get signed by Trump?
Matt McIrvin
@Another Scott: LIke I alluded to earlier, I’ve seen people in other social media who seem all het up for a shooting war, and it makes me wonder if they’re on the level. At this point I just mute them.
People who are not *in* the United States also have a greater tendency to want big drama here.
lowtechcyclist
@Geminid:
That’s a whole ‘nother debate. I was asking a very specific and limited question, and have no intention of debating whether or not the shutdown would have been good or bad.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
THIS X 100
Also!
Why won’t anyone vote for the Dem candidate I refused to vote for on principle?
schrodingers_cat
@Matt McIrvin: Yep. I have noticed that.
O. Felix Culpa
@schrodingers_cat: Agree! I always put out American flags at our house on national holidays, because I don’t want the MAGAs to own our national symbol.
RevRick
@Chetan Murthy: I am disinclined to punish any Democrat for voting in favor of a shitty culture war bill having to do with safety/policing. Am I disappointed? Yeah. But I understand that in closely divided districts this vote protects them from a gazillion attack ads from the right. After all, you can’t accomplish a damn thing if you don’t have power in the first place.
Purity demands get us nowhere fast.
lowtechcyclist
@Glory b:
OK, this is something I didn’t know. (Never came up, since previous shutdowns were instigated by a GOP-controlled Congress while a Democrat was President.)
Can he lay them off permanently, or just for the duration of the shutdown? If the former, I’ve gotta say that makes no sense whatsoever, and I have to wonder how the devil it became law.
suzanne
@RevRick: I just want to note….. a little bit of “grumble grumble, bummer! whelp!” is really just letting off a bit of steam. It’s many degrees different than “BOTH SIDES!” or “Dems in disarray!!!” bullshit.
comrade scotts agenda of rage
@RevRick:
And as I said above, we have +14 and a +40 Dems who voted for this so the “closely divided” excuse is no excuse.
I get that Dems like Moulton, Suozzi, Golden, MGP, etc., are gonna do what they do since they’re inclined to be that way anyway and can always fall back on the “closely divided” excuse. Dems like me will continue to beat on the “more” Dems like them and face with all the “don’t be such a purity pony” backlash from the commentariat because those pols still have a (D) after their name and need to be held accountable, even if it’s just bitching on an Almost Top 10,000 Blog, because of that (D). But I don’t expect them to change their spots.
I do expect Dems in safe districts to remember there’s a moral component to being in this party when they take so-called inconsequential votes like this one.
geg6
@suzanne:
Even Lamb seems to have stepped up his game. Watched an interview with him a couple months ago on the Bulwark YT channel with Lauren Egan that was good. He struck me as having more fighting spirit than 3/4 of currently serving Democrats. I can’t seem to be able to copy and paste the web address, but it’s easily found. I am guessing he may be gearing up for perhaps a primary run at Fetterman?
Melancholy Jaques
@Chetan Murthy:
There are still far too many Democrats who believe “if I go along with Republicans on this, they won’t tell everyone I hate Jesus, America, and the Troops!”
It’s a disease with no cure.
No One of Consequence
Can atheists still argue in good faith?
Asking for a friend…
-NOoC
Belafon
@schrodingers_cat: We were having that debate on another blog. Some people weren’t exactly happy at the suggestion that the flag might not have been the best choice in this situation. I’ll take the protester over someone just sitting on the sidelines, and I hate that people have to pander to ‘Merica rather than human rights, but you gotta know your audience.
Miss Bianca
@comrade scotts agenda of rage: My town is hosting one. I won’t be at it, because I have a prior commitment, but noted for the record that we are a tiny little community in a very red county in CO.
(We are not, however, out on the eastern plains. For which I truly thank God, because it gets hotter than the hinges of Hell out there.)
schrodingers_cat
@Belafon: That image of the protestor defiantly waving a Mexican flag at the deportation protest sends the wrong message. And does more harm than some one sitting on the sidelines as you put it
It endangers vulnerable populations at the mercy of ICE by turning the normies against the protesters.
NotMax
@Baud
Jewish space lasers, don’tcha know.
//
comrade scotts agenda of rage
@geg6:
Speaking of the junior senator from PA, did anyone see his response to the events in LA:
thehill.com/homenews/senate/5341670-fetterman-condemns-violent-protests-la/
Faux “News” is, obviously, all over this highlighting his terminology saying LA is in “anarchy” and that Dems have “lost the moral high ground”.
It’s unclear if he’s made any public statements (or if any other Senate Dems have, I dunno) about Hair Furor’s sending in the military and federalizing the National Guard which are the bigger issues at play here.
geg6
@schrodingers_cat:
I agree wholeheartedly with that. I’ll have my sign in one hand and a flag in the other.
Matt McIrvin
@comrade scotts agenda of rage: Moulton’s district isn’t purple, it’s pretty blue… but it’s a wealthier, whiter blue.
eclare
@comrade scotts agenda of rage:
My rep, Cohen, won in 2024 71-26. To say his district is safe is like saying water is wet.
schrodingers_cat
@geg6: Thanks. Yes I think the way to counter T 2.0 is to lean into our patriotism and portray T 2.0 as an aberration to our norms and mores.
suzanne
@geg6: Well, definitely happy to have others throw their hats in the ring to primary Fetterman. Though I’m not sure if he’s even going to run again.
One thing about PA that is very different from AZ…. there’s just a lot more good Dems. AZ has been building its bench over time, but man….. it was hard to be a Democrat for a while. When Sinema is the shining star, that’s a tough road.
It will be nice to have options. Anyone with a D after their name gets my vote in the general, but I always feel better about that when the primary provided good choices.
Harrison Wesley
@comrade scotts agenda of rage: So he can’t be bothered to do his job, but has the time to call out his own party. Swell.
comrade scotts agenda of rage
@Matt McIrvin:
Both the historical and political geographer in me can’t stop looking at that No Kings participation map.
Another thing that jumps out at one is how, at least in the sections of the West and Flyover Country, how the protests follow the interstate. I was particularly curious about this as I suggested in either red states or virulently red portions of blue or nominally blue states like CO.
The interstate is liberal! :)
comrade scotts agenda of rage
@Matt McIrvin:
Good point. As are the 2 districts I’ve highlighted are.
It’s another example of how pale blue a given district actually is despite what the last election results suggest. If there’s one thing I’ve learned being back here, when it comes to “law and order” (and all the orwellian ways people use to say that w/o saying that, Lee Atwater would be proud), scratch a nominal white Dem transplant here and they’ll screech at you about “law and order” (again never saying that but using plenty of dog whistles) like the best stereotypical rwnj.
Belafon
@Matt McIrvin: And yet we also know that wealthier whites liberals aren’t always the greatest allies on some issues.
eclare
@geg6:
I saw part of that interview, Lamb was good.
Geminid
@geg6: Conor Lamb .might be setting up a primary run against John Fetterman, but he could also be positioning himself for an appointment to Fetterman’s seat if the shaky Senator resigns. If Governor Shapiro gets the chance to replace “Big John,” he might see the former Representative as the best choice.
suzanne
If anyone wants to get nerdy, I will once again recommend Richard Rorty’s Achieving our Country. It’s a good read and not difficult. He has a lot to say about left patriotism, the flag, and I’ve been thinking about it a lot in the last few days.
Belafon
@comrade scotts agenda of rage: The closest one to me is in Dallas, which means the best way to get there will be to take the DART from Rowlett.
I do think in the future these protests need to be spread out, in smaller groups, force the government to spread its resources.
Belafon
Here’s a situation I’ve also seen being floated: Democratic congressmembers need to be out protesting. The question I have, though, is do you really want them away from DC with no easy way to get back?
NotMax
O’Donnell puts LA in perspective.
comrade scotts agenda of rage
@Belafon:
From a messaging/perception standpoint, yeah, that’s critical. We haven’t done that because a) we’re lazy, and b) we can walk 15 minutes and be in the middle of a shitton of people rallying against this crap. After 22+ years being maybe 2 of 10 Dems in our red, rurl Central Misery county, it’s somewhat liberating.
It’s one thing to have a big-assed rally here in Denver cuz everybody will go “OF COURSE BECAUSE DENVER IS A HIVE OF LIBRUL SCUM AND VILLIANRY!!!!!!”
But as Matt noted above, look at the red places in places like western NE or rurl IA and it sends a message that this pissed offdedness is widespread. I can just see the corporate media reporting along the lines of “There might be something to these protests since they’re happening in places we normally go to on a Cletus Safari”.
Gretchen
@schrodingers_cat: Why are we assuming that that person is a sincere protester and not someone there to undermine the message? The umbrella guy who broke windows in Minneapolis in 2020 turned out to be Proud Boy adjacent, not someone who was upset about George Floyd. But his actions drove the narrative that the protests were violent.
The civil rights protesters with MLK were mostly black. A KKK member couldn’t slip in unnoticed and do things that made them look bad. That’s not true now. The people on both sides of the issue look similar and saboteurs can slip in and do things that make the protesters look bad without being obviously on the other side.
brendancalling
@geg6: I sure hope so, because someone needs to cut Shrek off at the knees.
I’ve said it before and I will say it again/: I am embarrassed and ashamed that I canvassed for that son of a bitch. I am sad that I told Latinos to vote for him, that he was a friend to working class people and immigrants.
Now, when I leave messages—as I did today, in response to Fetterman (ahem) shitting all over his own party—I remind them that I’m a canvasser, and that they better hope I don’t decide to volunteer in 2028. Because if I do, I will go to those same neighborhoods and remind them what a piece of shit Fetterman has been to them.
Marcopolo
NJ jackals are probably already aware of their primary election today but if not get out there & vote for D candidate you want to be the next governor of your state.
Also curious to hear from Jersey jackals who they are voting for and why.
schrodingers_cat
@Gretchen: I am not making that assumption. And what you said was the first thing I thought of.
NotMax
@Marcopolo
“Can I write in Jimmy Hoffa? Rumor is he’s been planted in NJ long enough to establish residency.”
//
oldgold
On Saturday the juxtaposition of Marines policing the streets of LA while the Army marches in Trump’s birthday parade through the streets of DC is going to be jarring.
Are the Normies going to get that the military is being corruptly used to assail Trump’s perceived enemies while feteing him?
Glory b
@geg6: But as I recall, he voted 100% with Dems in the last session he was in Congress.
Before that, he voted with Trump on the birder wall & for the tax cut. I think that was it.
BUT, as I also recall, he flipped a district that was gerrymandered for a Republican, a pretty impressive feat.
The only things lefties held against him was that he wore suits & ties instead of hoodies & shorts and his father worked for a bank.
The same lefties also ignored Fetterman saying HE WASN’T A PROGRESSIVE, he was a regular Democrat.
Right now, I’d rather have Lamb.
Baud
@oldgold:
Who knows what’s in the normie heart?
suzanne
@NotMax: I am also interested in the NYC mayoral race. I don’t have any idea what’s going to happen. The ranked-choice aspect of it is interesting to me.
Redshift
@Dorothy A. Winsor:
The No Kings rallies will be fine. They’re picking a fight with LA and California, they don’t have anywhere near the forces to do that at protests across the country even if they wanted to. They couldn’t even manage to provide cots and porta potties for the National Guard troops they sent there.
It’s always okay to judge for yourself what you’re comfortable with, but I think they’ve helped No Kings become even bigger, and it’s going to be a joyous event of movement building that will be great to be part of.
NotMax
@suzanne
Pretty much foregone conclusion of Cuomo. Only question is by what margin.
Matt McIrvin
@Glory b: Fetterman also said he *was* a progressive. He said all sorts of things.
Lyrebird
Peter Coyote put things in a less testy fashion than the late, much lamented Steve Gilliard woulda, but with similar messages.
The moment I saw that photo, I assumed it was more than 50% likely it was a professional shyt stirrer, just as you say.
I’m frustrated bc I cannot find the video clip of a BLM protester who is a veteran coming over and telling LEOs (National Guard maybe?) how to shape up their formation.
I did find this ironic headline while searching from 5 years ago, a car drove into a BLM protest, and Trump responded by pulling the National Guard OUT of Seattle, bc he doesn’t care if legit protesters get hurt.
NotMax
@Redshift
Weren’t no cots and porta potties in Normandy.
//
Baud
Matt McIrvin
@Gretchen: I think Marc is right–it’s southern California, Mexican flags aren’t some act of violent provocation especially there and it’s only because we live in stupid land now that they’re treated as such.
But I know the right has been freaking out about some Aztlan Reconquista plot for decades, so I guess that’s what we have to work with.
Baud
@Matt McIrvin:
That’s because the Trump people think the Mexican flag carries the same meaning as the Confederate flag that they fly.
Matt McIrvin
@Redshift: This is why I go to the super local protests instead of going into Boston, I want this stuff to be as distributed and hometown as possible.
jonas
@brendancalling: It’s certainly possible that the Mexican flag-waving people are agents-provocateur of some kind, but I reckon that if a bunch of federal agents and NG troops started rampaging through South Boston and busting heads at bars and stuff, you’d probably see the Irish flags coming out there in response as well. There’s a lot of understandable outrage at the fact that ICE wasn’t targeting criminals or gang members or anything, just some Latino men looking for work. They *were* being targeted for their nationality/ethnicity, and so some protesters are kind of being defiant about that right back at them. I agree the optics aren’t good, but I also understand it.
different-church-lady
@Lyrebird:
I’m so old I can remember when there were good people on both sides.
Belafon
@Matt McIrvin: The image of the flag and the person waving it is seen in Idaho, Texas, Iowa, New York, Florida, Virginia, South Dakota, and the other 42 states.
Betty Cracker
@Belafon: Someone on Bluesky made the point that when authoritarian goons are racially profiling a specific group of immigrants and directly attacking their culture, it’s not surprising that protesters are celebrating their culture with flags. (Also, it’s apparently okay if Republican-leaning immigrants/descendants do it. You can’t swing a cat in Miami without hitting a Cuban flag.)
different-church-lady
Funny how nobody ever talks about the optics of losing an election to a bunch of overt racists.
Baud
@Belafon:
So were the images of Jan 6. Voters made their choice.
different-church-lady
The act of rebellion of flying Canadian flags in my northeast neighborhood will not stand!
snoey
@Betty Cracker: Israeli flags don’t count as foreign.
Baud
@different-church-lady:
It only counts if you wave the Canadian flag in front of a burning Zamboni.
chemiclord
@Matt McIrvin: There are a lot of trust-fund type communists on social media that imagine themselves as the officers of the Great Revolution, rather than the cannon fodder they would be forced into by the actual strongman of the movement… or worse, forced up against the wall with the other bourgeois because (shockingly) those sort of revolutions tend to be very bad at sifting the “good” bougies from the “bad” bougies.
Long story short; if you’re egging on “The Revolution” from your position in social media, well… you’re not part of “The Revolution,” and you’re probably not going to be on terribly good terms with them if they actually rise up.
Geminid
@Shalimar: I wasn’t talking about substance in the sense of what Republican Party foreign policy is in general. I was talking about substance as in, what the principals decided as to short- and medium-term policy on the Iran talks and the war in Gaza. Like it or not, and for better or for worse, U.S. officials are still important actors in the Middle East
It’s easy to dismiss them because these are so many assholes we’re talking about. Plus, I don’t think many Americans take those Iran talks seriously. And as for Gaza, a lot of people seem to have tuned that war out and are more or less fatalistic as to its outcome
I haven’t tuned that war out though, and I also take these nuclear talks seriously because there is a lot at stake, at least for the people living in the region. That’s why I talked of the substance of the Camp David meetings as if it mattered.
But what really matters are the results, which I’ll be watching for. They might not affect people here that much, but the world does not revolve around us even if we sometimes think it does.
NotMax
@Baud
Burning Zambonis added to the list of garage band names.
:)
different-church-lady
@Baud: I love working with you. 😀
Matt McIrvin
@Betty Cracker: Our Chinatown has this interesting détente going on with ROC flags all over on one side of the gate and PRC flags hanging on the other.
different-church-lady
@chemiclord: Keyboard Kommandos: not just for the right!
schrodingers_cat
People can fly whatever flags they want. Waving a Mexican flag at a deportation protest does T 2.0’s work for them. Not helpful to the people who have targets on their backs. This is my opinion as a naturalized citizen who is not white.
If I am at an Indian Independence Day parade, the tricolor makes sense there. When I was protesting policies of T 1.0 I had the American flag. Context matters.
YMMV.
Soprano2
@WaterGirl: I agree, it’s just so frustrating to read all the ways Democrats are doing good things and then have another post right out of the box saying “Here’s why Democrats suck”. If we think Democrats suck, how are we ever going to persuade other people to vote for them? I guess I’m advocating for examination of things rather than knee jerk reactions.
different-church-lady
@Soprano2: What good is it to have control of the government if it violates my purity?
NotMax
@Soprano2
Rapid unscheduled disarray.
:)
Eyeroller
@Gretchen: I’m more inclined to go with Popehat’s “at least 5% of any population are assholes.” Also people keep talking about the “right” way to do organized protests and I don’t see any evidence that these were organized at all, much less by people who attended Harvard. If I’m understanding it correctly, most of the “visuals” come from spontaneous responses to ICE rounding up people in Home Depot and Lowe’s parking lots in areas around Compton.
chemiclord
@Geminid: Conor Lamb is probably a far better politician than I could ever dream of being.
I mean… if I watched Pennsylvania Democrats choose that racist piece of shit Fetterman over me for no reason than he had the right “vibes” (i.e. big and shouty), I’d spend the rest of my life giving those voters two middle fingers and walking away.
Belafon
@Betty Cracker: I understand, and I don’t know if there’s a correct response. I’m definitely stuck in a mode of trying to get as many whites as possible to focus on the bad stuff being done and minimize the “What about the other side?” responses. I’m definitely too stuck in my little corner where that’s all I am trying to do. My facebook is full of “Are you seeing what the admin is doing in your name?” stuff.
different-church-lady
“Nothing will change in this country until people turn out in the streets!”
[PEOPLE TURN OUT IN THE STREETS]
”No, not like that.”
satby
ICE is prioritizing kidnapping predominantly Mexicans in Mexican neighborhoods in LA. Just like the rest of us ethnic Americans, they’re entitled to celebrate their heritage as well as protest as citizens. I don’t think it was a “false flag” attempt to discredit the protest, it was the proud people of a community, many of whom had family going back to when California was part of Mexico, standing up for their neighbors. The people who don’t like those optics weren’t going to like any optics around the protests.
schrodingers_cat
@chemiclord: Those same viby voters who didn’t want to listen to black voters befor the election are now at the forefront of cursing out Fetterman.
satby
@different-church-lady: Thank you.
Jeezus. Sometimes I just wonder wtf.
oldgold
I wonder if street rallies are worth-while. What exactly do they accomplish? It seems for the most part the opportunity for harming the cause is greater than any possible benefit. 999 people can be peaceful and one asshole will be the news. That is how the media, particularly television, works.
I participated in street protests in the spring of 1970 following the Kent State massacre. I felt we had the wind at our back in convincing folks the war was wrong and had to end. I remember how intoxicating it was to be in a large crowd, chanting while big drums were pounding and the wind was whipping our long hair and anti-war banners. Then, some miscreants burned a University building to the ground and several firefighters were badly injured. We were all smeared with it. In the end, we lost ground.
In the 60s there were Civil Rights demonstrations that were effective, since then – not so much.
Librettist
L.A. is the focus because the GOP and their press toadies believe Newsom to be the 2028 chalk. FOX has declared his political future dead.
Geminid
@JerseyBeard: You can always check out the Wikipedia biographies for Reps. Mikie Sherrill and Josh Gottheimer, and Mayors Steven Fulop (Jersey City) and Ras Baraka (Newark). They’re the four leading Democratic candidates for Governor.
The New Jersey Globe has been covering this race fairly closely so that’s another good source.
schrodingers_cat
@satby: Message discipline is important for successful protests. Gandhi called off a successful national wide protest against the British after violence marred it. Google, Chowri Chowra incident.
Also, in this country white people can get away with a lot more than non-white people can. Trump is a great example of this. Denying this reality doesn’t make it disappear
In this anti-immigrant atmosphere that reelected Trump being careful about how you appear to someone not in your in group is not stupid.
chemiclord
@different-church-lady: Welcome to Lefty Politics. I see you’ve been here before. Same table as last time?
Matt McIrvin
@Belafon: Personally I’ve probably been spending too much time reading Canadian, Scottish and German leftists going “USA delenda est” and explaining to me why all my political efforts are doomed like I’m an idiot.
Bruce K in ATH-GR
@Librettist: So militarizing the response to the L.A. protests is their way of attempting to neutralize Newsom as a threat to their continued rule, the same way they did when Trump tried to extort Zelenskyy into slandering Joe Biden in the international news media?
Baud
@Matt McIrvin:
Your efforts may be doomed. Or maybe not. No one really knows.
schrodingers_cat
@Matt McIrvin: Trump is the tankie wet dream. Block them and move on.
Belafon
I haven’t hidden the former classmates I follow on Facebook who I have found out are MAGA. One of them, a former Marine, posted a meme about the Marines being used to control people, I think in some other country, with the line “Those who don’t read history are doomed to repeat it.” I responded with “Yeah, too many American’s don’t seem to know why the founding fathers explicitly minimized the US of the military inside the US, that protests are allowed by the first amendment, that everyone under the jurisdiction of the US government has the right to due process, and that the burden of proof is on the government not the people.”
NotMax
@Matt McIrvin
“Try the waitress. Tip the veal.”
//
chemiclord
@satby: There’s also a degree that John and Jane Public tend to be looking for a reason to decry protests or anything that doesn’t fit their narrow worldview, and if one isn’t offered to them, they’ll outright fabricate that reason whole cloth.
For all the talk about how “disciplined” the Civil Rights Movement was, the average normie was able to manufacture a plethora of bullshit about it, and happily embraced it.
Omnes Omnibus
@Matt McIrvin: Why do you feel compelled to keep reading them? What benefit accrues to you from doing so?
Matt McIrvin
@chemiclord: Yeah, the line at the time was that MLK’s use of civil disobedience was a route to anarchy and chaos because if you can pick and choose which laws to obey, anything goes! And the escalating violence through the Sixties into the Seventies got identified with every kind of protest movement.
Matt McIrvin
@Omnes Omnibus: They’re usually people I admire for non-political or only tangentially political reasons.
Belafon
@chemiclord: It took the pictures they saw on TV to change some of that.
Geminid
@Matt McIrvin: Plenty of people outside this country– and inside too– have always loved to dunk on the U.S. and its citizens.
Now it’s like Trump provided them a trampoline, and they’re having the time of their lives doing Tomahawks, 360s, Alley Oops etc. I don’t pay much attention, but I think there’s a certain amount of projection going on.
JML
@chemiclord: I think that;s right. People who aren’t politically engaged tend to not like protests generally, because they get in the way of them going about their life. I literally had conversations with people who were complaining about protests that were shutting down streets (or highways) because they were inconveniencing people, and why couldn’t they do that where it wouldn’t bother people? They miss the point that protests are supposed to disrupt your life so you’ll start paying attention to the problem, and the people engaged in it are willing to risk you getting pissed off about it in order to get you to pay attention. One thing protesters know is there too many go along to get along people sitting on the sidelines.
It’s going to be hard to dodge the provocateurs right now: the GOP has a lot of assholes who have been told they’d be heroes for starting some sh!t, and between the Current Occupant and his disgusting pardons and some nutball judicial decisions (like Rittenhouse in WI) these people think they’ll get let off the hook even if they get caught. And the one thing the Current Occupant wants more than anything else is for actual violence and destruction to break out so he can have some heads broken. He’s sick enough in the head and has so little empathy for people that he will be happy to have a Kent State or worse.
I still encourage people to protest, but be calm and be careful.
lowtechcyclist
@NotMax:
Whaddaya mean, ‘unscheduled’? It’s like clockwork! ;-)
suzanne
@different-church-lady: Agree.
Also an interesting disconnect has appeared on this thread. Some don’t want Democratic politicians criticized. Simultaneously, there’s a fair amount of criticism of unelected protesting people, citizens and otherwise. I’m personally inclined to give a lot more latitude to the unelected protestors, as this isn’t their job. They’re in the streets while I’m going to work and living my life, and they’re doing so at significant risk to themselves and for no compensation. Obviously mileage varies, but it is an interesting collision of discussions.
chemiclord
@Geminid: Hey, now! I don’t love doing a 360 windmill tomahawk dunk over the average American! But if Normie American Voter is going to give me my left hand into the lane and then set up well inside the circle… I’m gonna put him on a poster.
That’s just how it is. Normie gotta step up his game if he don’t want it to happen.
lowtechcyclist
@different-church-lady:
Perfect!
Jackie
Apropos of nothing… the price of bleach is gonna go up, isn’t it:
schrodingers_cat
Brilliant Plan to combat T 2.0
Push an incumbent President who won the primaries out because of optics
Urge people sitting on the sidelines to not vote for his replacement
Criticize elected Democrats because they don’t act like social media hotheads or a certain shouty independent with no legislative achievements
Wave foreign flags at deportation protests
VICTORY!!!
Did I miss anything?
Matt McIrvin
@JML: It’s funny, the ones I’ve been to so far mostly get dozens of people driving by honking and cheering in support, with maybe one or two dopes trying to start shit. But I’m in friendly territory.
It’s a big contrast to election time where the local Trumpster minority can make up for it by being SUPER INTENSE and covering their whole yard with Trump signs, so that’s what you notice.
Belafon
@chemiclord: The flip side of that is that MLK and the others believed that optics played a role. Rosa Parks wasn’t the first black woman to get in trouble for not giving up her seat to a white woman. She just didn’t have a criminal record.
I realize I’m most likely contributing to the problem, but I definitely want to make sure, to anyone outside of the blogs, that the problem with the Mexican flag being there is ICE arresting people illegally.
comrade scotts agenda of rage
@schrodingers_cat:
Yup. Or going thru written gymnastics distancing themselves, etc. Not the first time we’ve seen this and sure won’t be the last, and not just with Fetterman.
Randal Sexton
@WaterGirl: Nice critique. I agree. In general, when something like an actual military takeover of American cities is happening I really dont think talking about the stuff that the Dems did or did not do correctly in past elections is THE THING to REPEAT again and again. – Relatedly, I am going to be attempting to convince a dozen or so people – ‘normies’ – who have never gone to a protest or done anything more political than voting that they should maybe think about going to a NO-KINGS protest. Anybody have any persuasive advice ?
Belafon
@Jackie: Only for a short period of time.
Matt McIrvin
@jonas: Try telling the Greeks or Italians around here not to wave their ancestral country’s flag. If someone were actively singling them out for persecution? Oh man.
suzanne
@lowtechcyclist: There’s always gotta be a hippie to punch.
lowtechcyclist
@oldgold:
Most of us don’t have any way of judging which way the wind is really blowing. Rallies at least help us all know that we aren’t alone in our opposition to what this Administration is doing, that we’re part of something larger.
suzanne
@Matt McIrvin: LOL, right. My neighborhood has flags of Ukraine, Israel, Italy, Mexico, Greece, and Ireland flying, in addition to the USA. And quite a few Trump and Thin Blue Line. Also some Pride and Allyship flags.
I would think anyone who has spent any time in the parts of the US that used to be Mexico would be very comfortable and unsurprised to see Mexican flags.
JML
@Matt McIrvin: I think it depends on how disruptive it is. Crowd of people on the sidewalk in front of the jackass congressman’s office, or gathered in front of the capitol versus making it so people can’t get to work because they shut down two major arteries. (still not saying they’re doing anything wrong, just what changes the perception for the normies)
I hope things stay peaceful and people keep getting honks and thumbs up, etc. I hope every GOP congressional critter has to see protesters every single time they try to go to their office, and their staff is exhausted from the constant barrage of complaints.
Geminid
@Geminid: In a related development, Trump and Netanyahu had a phone call last night:
This summary by aggregator “OSINTDefender” tracks the Haaretz article on the call. Haaretz is very anti-Netanyahu but they have good sources still. I expect there’s reporting on the call by other sites as well.
satby
@schrodingers_cat: I understand what you’re saying. I’m saying we’re a nation of immigrants and reflecting that heritage isn’t a negative IMO. More people need the reminder. Plus, these were spontaneous protests by a targeted community and it’s supporters. Not the outcome of a planned resistance movement.
Betty Cracker
@zhena gogolia: Huh. That has not been my experience. There’s so much snippy subtweeting going on that sometimes I honestly can’t tell who is beefing with whom anymore. Not surprised comment volume seems to have dropped. I keep hoping things will calm down, but maybe this is the new normal.
satby
@oldgold: just the ultimate resignation of the President at that time. The protests did help eventually.
Baud
@Geminid:
Despite the bluster, Trump has no foreign policy wins. He covets a “deal.”
lowtechcyclist
Google Translate was no help with this.
Geminid
@lowtechcyclist: I think this is an important feature of these rallies: they build and maintain morale. The morale factor is intangible but it’s no less important for that
lowtechcyclist
@schrodingers_cat:
Well, you’ve got re-re-refighting last year’s battles in there, so you didn’t miss that.
Professor Bigfoot
@Baud: “Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of normies? The Progressives do, that’s who! BWAHAHAHAHAHAAA…” ;^D
satby
@Matt McIrvin: exactly.
Eyeroller
@Jackie: Chlorine dioxide is used mainly for industrial bleaching and water treatment. Ordinary household bleach is a solution of sodium hypochloride. They do both require chlorine as an ingredient but that’s reasonably abundant.
The irony is not lost on me that MAGAs and MAHAs are advocating consuming the substance used to disinfect tap water but have all those conspiracy theories about fluoride. Chlorine and fluorine are chemically similar (chlorine is immediately below fluorine on the periodic table). And both are very corrosive and toxic in gaseous form. Mixing household cleaning agents can result in the emission of a lot of hazardous substances, including pure chlorine gas, which is the reason for all the warnings.
oldgold
@satby: Of course, that was after we overwhelmingly re-elected the SOB in ’72. The vote count was 47 million to 29 million. The Electoral College vote was 520 to 17.
Our street rallies in the spring of 1970 and the ensuing backlash helped fuel this.
O. Felix Culpa
@Betty Cracker: FWIW, it is my experience. The viciousness and toxicity of last summer and fall are greatly diminished. I don’t miss that at all. As far as site traffic is concerned, there was a discernable drop-off during that period, and only some people have returned.
jonas
@Matt McIrvin: Exactly.
comrade scotts agenda of rage
It’s interesting to see how (white) people react to non-white iconography/participation in the rallies this year. And how issue politics on the left colors (see what I did there?) what they see and say.
First Denver rally this year, big. Started at noon and one of the things many schools did was bus their, overwhelmingly Hispanic, kids to the rally. It was gloriously Hispanic, mostly Mexican. It was great to see that level of participation in a city that’s done it’s damnest to displace everyone of color to a inner ring burb.
Then, one of my oldest friends arrived. He, oops, now she, came out as she a couple of years back and went thru a transition surgery last year at the age of 63. Her politics have always been liberal but are now very trans-specific.
She looked around and said something to the effect of “This looks a bit too Hispanic”. I turned and said “I’ve known you for 45 years, I’ve been around you shit faced drunk, watched you dutifully defend your first spouse, the hoarder and certifiable loon and as an old friend, have heard dumb things come from your mouth as has from all of us at one point or another. But that’s the dumbest ass thing you’ve ever said.”
Why did she say it? Because she felt the non-presence of Denvers LGBTQ+ crowd at that moment during the day and the overwhelming Hispanic presence might come across as that being purely a immigration rally and not a “all our librul causes” rally.
I shook my head again and said “The black and brown communities in the metro area don’t get shit for coverage whereas the Denver Pride Parade is one of the largest in the country with one of the largest corporate sponsorships complete with the kind of continuous local TV coverage that most of us would murder repeatedly for…and you’re bitching about 2 hours of *one* rally being “too Hispanic”?
She wasn’t the last person who expressed variations of that sentiment. Which is my long-winded way of saying don’t be so hasty to think that white people, even librul white people, who grew up in a location with a significant non-white population are not still taken aback and somewhat miffed when the aforementioned non-white folks display their culture and heritage in such a ways that might “get in the way” of whatever the white folks think should be happening.
schrodingers_cat
@comrade scotts agenda of rage: Unfortunately the people the Hispanic or other immigrant populations have to appeal to are mostly white. As a naturalized citizen if I were waving an Indian flag at a rally protesting deportation tactics by ICE, that would be counterproductive.
There is a time and place for everything. Context matters. And yes race matters too. Were the Italians waving Italian flags when they were being actively discriminated against in the early 20th century?
prostratedragon
@Matt McIrvin, @Baud:
From Joyce White Vance, “Oopsie”.
prostratedragon
@lowtechcyclist:
Giannis Antetokumpo going left and posterizing not one, but two defenders. One does not want to be on someone else’s poster.
chemiclord
@lowtechcyclist:
You don’t know ball. That’s okay.
Basically, playing off the “dunking on” comment with some lingo that describes the perfect scenario to dunk on somebody on the court.
Darkrose
@schrodingers_cat: I’m not from LA, and I’m not Chicana, so I’m not going to tell folks who are spontaneously coming out to respond to something targeting their community that they’re doing it wrong.
The marchers in the Civil Rights Movement were part of a multi-pronged, carefully planned strategy to fight segregation. What’s happening now in LA is not planned, does not appear to have a single leader, and is in response to rapidly-changing events. Even if you wanted to try to impose message discipline, there’s not really a coordinated way to do that.
Interesting Name Goes Here
@Chetan Murthy: I’m sure you’ve been dragged for this plenty, so I’m going to make sure I get my lick in.
This is why I have honest-to-God severe reservations about using the words “left” and “progressive” to describe my political standing now. Those labels have been hijacked and corrupted by people who make their living engaging in the same kind of bullshit you just did.
Soprano2
@lowtechcyclist: When you’re in an area like mine, it helps to see that you aren’t alone. I think I might go to the “No Kings” rally here in Springfield because it’s in the morning, a time I can actually go!
Darkrose
A better analogy for what’s happening in LA than the Civil Rights Movement is Stonewall. It’s a spontaneous, localized response to state repression at the hands of the police.
brendancalling
@chemiclord: At the time, Fetterman seemed like the better choice. Plenty of front pagers right here loved the guy. I could add a dozen more links, but the mod-bot would probably get set off.
Also at the time, Connor Lamb was saying the wrong things if he wanted to get elected. He was highlighting his centrism in a time when people didn’t want a centrist. I’m not gonna link because i don’t want to set off the mod-bot (and also FTNYT) but google “Conor Lamb Had All the Makings of a Front-Runner. So Why Is He Struggling?” Fetterman, on the other hand, was representing himself (dishonestly, it turned out) as a progressive. He used his wife (again, dishonestly) to prop up his “pro-immigrant” bonafides.
And it wasn’t just “racist” Pennsylvanians that supported him: plenty of liberals and progressives (including folks like Malcolm Kenyatta, AOC, the Philadelphia Tribune editorial board (historic black newspaper in Philly), and many many more.
So yeah, hindsight is 20/20. Fetterman lied about who he was to a lot of people.
Ramona
@Professor Bigfoot: Why in the name of all that is holy would people not wish to learn from the most successful nonviolent protest movement in recent history? Never mind, I know why…
O. Felix Culpa
@Darkrose: Yes, that’s a good analogy. Thanks. I also agree that it’s useful to differentiate between spontaneous and planned/organized protests. At this point though, the demonstrations should be moving from the former to the latter, which is when protest discipline should kick in. For the sake of the message and protection (as far as possible) of the protestors.
Marc
Going all the way back to the beginning of this discussion, I wanted to bring up something I’ve noticed. Whenever wording like this gets added to a bill, no matter what else may be in there:
it forces an innate response on the part of certain kinds of left/center politicians, generally those who have been in uniform, to vote in favor or at least not against. It’s a kind of coded tribal triggering mechanism. I’d ignore it, it’s what they do.
Geminid
@Marc: This is off-topic, but I think you stay informed on modern aerospace technology, and I wonder if you are familiar with an Iranian guy who tweets as “Patarames.” He gets into a lot of detail about Iranian missile technology including maneuverable warheads, counter-measures etc; describes himself as an “Open Source (-only),” like he has some inside info.
At times Patarames sounds like he’s writing ad copy for the Persian Missile Chamber of Commerce, but other sites seem to take him seriously. A lot of the material is over my head but you would likely understand it. He also started presenting his stuff on YouTube recently.
Marc
@Geminid: No have social media accounts, don’t much watch all that many videos. My interests are more technical, just as with AI (which overlaps), how does one take advantage of new technology to do something easier and cheaper. I know what it takes to build various kinds of FPV/autonomous drones cheap, and have been fascinated by the various ways the Ukrainian, Iranian, and Turkish military drones make use of the same parts I do.
different-church-lady
@chemiclord: Yes. And such small portions…
different-church-lady
@schrodingers_cat:
Steal underpants.