In The Atlantic, Anne Applebaum wrote about how faltering revolutions tend to choose violence, arguing that this is what Trump’s illegal invasion of Los Angeles is all about. It’s not a distraction but a significant escalation that follows a pattern set by despots like Chairman Mao, among others. An excerpt from Applebaum’s piece:
I doubt very much that Donald Trump knows a lot about the methods of Bolsheviks or Maoists, although I am certain that some of his entourage does. But he is now leading an assault on what some around him call the administrative state, which the rest of us call the U.S. government. This assault is revolutionary in nature. Trump’s henchmen have a set of radical, sometimes competing goals, all of which require fundamental changes in the nature of the American state. The concentration of power in the hands of the president. The replacement of the federal civil service with loyalists. The transfer of resources from the poor to the rich, especially rich insiders with connections to Trump. The removal, to the extent possible, of brown-skinned people from America, and the return to an older American racial hierarchy.
Trump and his allies also have revolutionary methods. Elon Musk sent DOGE engineers, some the same age as Mao’s Red Guards, into one government department after the next to capture computers, take data, and fire staff. Trump has launched targeted attacks on institutions that symbolize the power and prestige of the old regime: Harvard, the television networks, the National Institutes of Health. ICE has sent agents in military gear to conduct mass arrests of people who may or may not be undocumented immigrants, but whose arrests will frighten and silence whole communities. Trump’s family and friends have rapidly destroyed a matrix of ethical checks and balances in order to enrich the president and themselves.
But their revolutionary project is now running into reality. More than 200 times, courts have questioned the legality of Trump’s decisions, including the arbitrary tariffs and the deportations of people without due process. Judges have ordered the administration to rehire people who were illegally fired. DOGE is slowly being revealed as a failure, maybe even a hoax: Not only has it not saved much money, but the damage done by Musk’s engineers might prove even more expensive to fix, once the costs of lawsuits, broken contracts, and the loss of government capacity are calculated. The president’s signature legislation, his budget bill, has met resistance from senior Republicans and Wall Street CEOs who fear that it will destroy the U.S. government’s credibility, and even resistance from Musk himself.
Now Trump faces the same choice as his revolutionary predecessors: Give up—or radicalize. Find compromises—or polarize society further. Slow down—or use violence. Like his revolutionary predecessors, Trump has chosen radicalization and polarization, and he is openly seeking to provoke violence.
Applebaum says that even if cooler heads prevent a large-scale violent confrontation in Los Angeles, the fact that Trump is needlessly and illegally sending U.S. troops into an American city is just an opening salvo. He’ll keep resorting to violence.
Applebaum cites the dehumanizing language Trump used in his speech at Fort Bragg yesterday, where he called protesters “animals” and “foreign invaders.” He is paving the path to escalation.
The logic of revolution often traps revolutionaries: They start out thinking that the task will be swift and easy. The people will support them. Their cause is just. But as their project falters, their vision narrows. At each obstacle, after each catastrophe, the turn to violence becomes that much swifter, the harsh decisions that much easier. If not stopped, by Congress or the courts, the Trump revolution will follow that logic too.
The people have a role also. Republicans in Congress are either enthusiastic participants in Trump’s authoritarian project or too chickenshit to oppose it, and it sure appears that the former outnumber the latter. The judiciary is under threat as well.
I think the No Kings protests this weekend will tell us a lot about whether Americans are up to the task of saving their own democracy. In my opinion, it’s very much an open question. Maddow is optimistic:
Maddow: I also feel like there’s not very much about that that I don’t understand. Like, it’s the same everywhere. This is blond Berlusconi, you know what I mean? This is inarticulate Viktor Orbán, right? These guys are all the same. The authoritarian playbook is the same everywhere
I hope she’s right.
Open thread.
Baud
I’ll guess that the protests this weekend will be bigger than they would have been had LA not happened.
Destroy Oh Boy
As a Marine, I couldn’t possibly obey these orders. They are fundamentally unconstitutional.
I live in deep red MAGA land. I have had a conversation with a few veteran red-hatters, and even they are concerned about this escalation. It’s only a couple steps removed from a total state of emergency. However, I am sure they will go along with it if they perceive this “crisis” as one that necessitates extreme measures. The rhetoric of the right wing has patiently wore away most of the rule of law roadblocks.
Only patience, numbers, and peace will overcome this situation.
comrade scotts agenda of rage
Hair Furor using dehumanizing language?
Gee, where have we heard before how imagined enemies aren’t portrayed as humans as a reason to exterminate them?
To borrow a pithy phrase, we did Nazi that coming.
Oh wait, we did, or at least we rightfully feared it would be a fundamental messaging component this time around.
“The lesson of the Holocaust was not that the Nazis were uniquely evil. The lesson was that anyone can become a Nazi. You’re witnessing this with America right now.”
George
Applebaum was a guest on a podcast a few weeks ago during which she discussed how fascist/authoritarian halfwits such as FFOTUS and Orban come to power. She said that the response to such authoritarians tends to follow the same pathway–the resistance is disjointed and self-competitive for a period, then tends to solidify.
The Constant Critics who do little but lambaste Democrats now for not having a unified message and their own resistance leader should take Applebaum’s words to heart. Just as an authoritarian coming to power takes time and tends to follow a certain path, so does the formation of a functioning resistance.
NotMax
Sooner or later, the
cheesesleaze stands alone.//
zhena gogolia
@Baud: Yeah, even I might go.
Applebaum seems correct here.
I have mixed feelings about her, but I think her book on the gulag is really good, I use it all the time.
schrodingers_cat
None of this should be a surprise. It was all outlined in the campaign. T2.0 is following the despot playbook.
But D bigwigs influenced by Little Broder and Vichy Times pushed out Biden because he stuttered and had a cold. So here we are.
schrodingers_cat
@zhena gogolia: Wasn’t her husband a part of the RW Polish government?
NaijaGal
This escalation is likely intended to provoke a reaction that allows him to invoke martial law and suspend the rules as we know them. I commented on BlueSky that the mainstream news media’s take on what’s going on in Los Angeles reminds me of the anti-Ghorman propaganda on Andor (for those of you who have watched that). Chilling because people outside LA don’t understand the scope of the protests and rely on the news to give them accurate information.
A general strike would be one way to battle this madman who clearly intends to escalate no matter whether protests are peaceful or violent. He can’t drag everyone out of their homes to go to work. Unfortunately, many are in precarious financial situations, so I don’t know whether the US can pull that off.
He and his team are all in but those who voted against him and those who sat out the election are going to have to put an end to this through a general strike or some other means. Gavin Newsom gave an effective breakdown of the situation and I hope it reached a big enough audience nationwide that people understand the stakes.
bbleh
Certainly the crowds I’ve seen at Philly protests suggests that a LOT of people are informed and sufficiently energized. And as noted elsewhere, while there is a sprinkling of activists, the LARGE majority of the attendees are “normies,” and a lot of those are middle-aged or older, ie, not a crowd that’s at all easy to characterize as radical or violent. The imagery is crystal-clear.
That’s not to say the MAGAts won’t try to mischaracterize it. And as things continue through the summer — and I am reasonably confident they will — I would bet that at least some protests will be met by force of some kind, like ICE goon-squads or non-government MAGA provocateurs.
And I’d add to Applebaum’s description of MAGA-ism as like Maoism, it’s headed by a pathologically insecure and declining individual, which makes it even more impulsive and prone to violence. I’ve been predicting that he’ll start a war at some point. (I was thinking maybe Panama, because far enough away and easy to “win,” but he might go for something at the Mexican border too.)
It’s gonna get considerably worse before it gets better. (And for communities of color, especially Latino ones, it already is worse.)
WereBear
Trump has new tricks? Really? I am so not worried about him coming up with innovations. Apparently there’s some evidence he can’t really read, or refuses to, and is considered the stupidest student to ever sneak into Wharton Business School. Which says a lot about both of them, considering “business” is supposedly on board with his scam.
Only bring it up because there was ONE book on his nightstand, which I think was Hitler’s speeches. Typically, he just grabbed some phrases.
Much of this is the corporate organs which have been transplanted among our human ones, sucking all the heme iron out of our bodies, and trying to rip out our souls.
Corporate demons, as it were. But the cult is fracturing under the impact of two high level jerks fighting visibly. This is Martin Luther levels of problem.
rusty
@Baud: I hadn’t planned to go. After watching LA, I’m signed up and will be there. I am guessing I am not the only one.
RaflW
The grumpy man in the row in front of me is watching Fox. All I see are the chyrons and the expressions of the talking heads. But the propaganda is on full blast. “Shock poll shows immigrants support of Trump surges!” etc.
I know this Foxification is nothing new, but we will have to do something about the disinfo environment if we pass thru this crucible.
zhena gogolia
@schrodingers_cat: Looks as if he’s still in the Polish government. I don’t think Tusk is so right-wing.
zhena gogolia
@WereBear: Just to note that he never was in the graduate program at Wharton Business School. He got some BS BA degree labeled Wharton.
schrodingers_cat
@NaijaGal: The protests need should stay non-violent. Ds need to distance themselves from groups who resort to violence. ( I was reading all kinds of ridiculous justifications from the mostly white keyboard revolutionaries how burning cars was wonderful. )Not because we are afraid, but because that is the right thing to do.
schrodingers_cat
@zhena gogolia: I forget what gave me that impression. Rightwing on immigration IDR?
zhena gogolia
@schrodingers_cat: Probably. I am trying to write an article so don’t have time to read the whole Wikipedia. He is on the correct side of the Ukraine war.
NotMax
Open Thread?
FSM almighty, I’m sick of drug ads (side effects include death) on streaming services. Almost longing for the halcyon days of tobacco ads, even the vaguely promoted Scandinavian size.. Bring back Edie Adams.
Another new trend that’s recently cropped up is alcohol-free Heineken and alcohol-free Guinness. By all that’s holy, why?
:)
Kosh III
Open Thread
Rep. Mark Green District 7-Regressive Party is retiring which gives the possibility that a D could win
IF the D is a good person, good orator, AND has money and support.
I know the state party is semi-moribund and the national D part ceased to care about red states years ago and does NOTHING to help but one can dream–right?
Captain C
@bbleh:
If he actually invades Mexico, it will make Iraq look like a garden party, with the added element of Mexico, unlike Iraq, being right on our long and porous border and with millions of Mexican-Americans here in the US, most of whom I suspect would not be pleased with such an invasion. The only bright side of this scenario is that FFOTUS may well be too cowardly to start a war he might not win in a cakewalk.
NaijaGal
@schrodingers_cat: Of course they need to stay nonviolent. My point is that he views the existence of public protest, whether peaceful or violent, as a means to get to martial law.
The courts should have ruled speedily when California sued about the guard deployment being illegal and allowed Newsom to withdraw them immediately.
He is trying to provoke a violent reaction that gets him to his goal. The news media aren’t helping.
He also understands that doing ten crazy things at once means that people can’t focus on any one thing. But we can each pick one or two things to focus on and keep following up on those things. We outnumber his supporters even if it doesn’t feel that way.
Belafon
@rusty: My two sons and I will be doing our first actual march this weekend in Dallas.
eclare
I would like to go this Saturday, but I was sick earlier this week and am not up to it. Plus it’s on the corner of a very busy intersection. I previously mentioned the exposure to cars scares me, and sure enough last night a car drove through the protest in Chicago. It didn’t look like anyone was hurt, and it looked like the driver was just pissed at people in his way, at least.
But I thought I might drop by with some bags of cookies.
Nelle
@schrodingers_cat: I note, too, that I have some old reservation about Applebaum and I’m not sure where that is from. On the other hand, I so appreciated her Red Famine and find myself eager to read her current essays. Not sure where that nugget of hesitation is from.
NotMax
@Captain C
Too many people..Greenland first.
//
Redshift
@Baud: There have been several hundred protests added to the No Kings list since the events in LA, so I think you’re right that it’s making people more likely to participate, not scaring them off.
Redshift
@eclare:
That definitely qualifies as doing what you can, and I’m sure they’ll be appreciated! “Join the Resistance, we have cookies!”
Baud
comrade scotts agenda of rage
@NaijaGal:
Oh, they’re “helping” just plenty. Shooting and shit starts and they’re on the ground like Erin Burnett was last night wearing her goggles.
It’ll be a ratings bonanza for all concerned, basically “If It Bleeds It Leads” gone a) national and b) on steroids.
eclare
@Kosh III:
I live here in TN, that would be an enormous task, and I have to think there are some closer races that could better spend that money.
The TN legislature purposefully split Nashville into three districts a few years ago to dilute the Democrats. Mark Green represents one of those districts. The TN legislature knows what it is doing.
Bruce K in ATH-GR
@NotMax: I’ll go you one better: I saw an ad on YouTube the other day for alcohol-free gin, though apparently they can’t call it gin because EU rules say that there’s a minimum alcohol content before something can be marketed as gin.
I went searching for reviews of it, and discovered a consensus that it might as well be juniper-flavored water.
Baud
@Bruce K in ATH-GR:
“Gin drink.”
Betty Cracker
@Nelle: Applebaum was among the first traditional conservatives to understand the dangers of right-wing populism because she saw how it destroyed societies in Eastern Europe first hand.
Nelle
We’ve decided to go to a small town protest about 20 miles from us on Saturday. I’m of the spread out and around kind of approach right now.
We went to one last night in downtown Des Moines. Very different vibe than the old people protests we’ve gone to at the Capitol this spring. Those had a lot of the old and slow (of which we are a part), but last night, there were a lot of young, masked, tense people striding around. We couldn’t hear anything (poor sound system). That’s okay because I don’t go to these to learn things and I’m not a slogan chanter. But we stayed long enough to add to the crowd numbers and then came home. (Wish I could sleep past 3 am, but I’m pretty droopy by evening.)
WereBear
I listened to a discussion between organizers and psychologists, noting how even a MAGA trying to drive his truck into one demonstration got turned around peacefully.
Because little old white ladies have some level of “asshole kryptonite.” Harassing someone who could be your mom/grandmom apparently creates a pause.
Where the mechanism usually refreshes, and receives new programming.
WereBear
@zhena gogolia: Oh, yeah! Thanks. Always think the worst, always think the worst…
NotMax
@Redshift
Might one suggest classic black and white cookies?
;)
Baud
Cheryl from Maryland
I will be at one of the MANY No Kings Protests in Montgomery County, MD. It’s well organized – we will be on the sidewalks along the main Saturday shopping road, already cleared by the police, not blocking traffic, waving the Stars and Stripes, our protest signs, and wearing our Sunday best. Close to 2,000 have signed up for just this one.
WereBear
@NotMax: Because we are in the SATIRIC science-fiction fascist dystopian high-tech thriller.
You can blame me. I thought I was voting for a movie poster meme generator.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
This feels like Trump is panicking and driving his minions to do stupid things which in turns ups the resistance to Trump, so Trump panics more and so on.
Michael Bersin
@Nelle:
My plan on Saturday:
1. Lee’s Summit (Eastern suburb of Kansas City) 10:00 a.m.
2. Warrensburg, MO 1:00 p.m.
3. Clinton, MO 4:00 p.m.
Preparing the cameras, charging the batteries, finding the monopod…
JML
@Baud: Kimmel has been quite good in framing everything the Current Occupant says and does. While I don’t expect a comedian to save us or anything, it’s useful to have someone like him nail the framing in ways that aren’t focus-group tested by the chattering class in DC.
comrade scotts agenda of rage
@Nelle:
Long piece that explains her:
https://jacobin.com/2024/07/anne-applebaum-autocracy-book-review
It’s why she thrives along with more noted (and to her nominal defense, far worse) so-called progressive hacks that dominate The Atlantic. They exist to launder right wing and far right libertarian material into “think” pieces for the Totebagger Radio crowd.
Always worth trotting out Anne Laurie’s description:
That being said, she’s not the worst by any stretch but conservatives that have spent years engaging in various forms of Republican Detachment Disorder and not having a noticeable Road To Damascus moment the way people like Cole (or Rubin) have had are still worthy of tons of skepticism.
billcoop4
I’ll be going to the Warrensburg, NY No Kings gatherings — in the heart of Stefanikland. Need to find a pole for my flag.
The other BC
eclare
@Redshift:
Thanks!
schrodingers_cat
@comrade scotts agenda of rage: Seriously? Jacobin is as much a clown show as the Atlantic is. Purity left is as big a problem as the podbros and smug know-it-alls of the Atlantic and NYT.
ETtheLibrarian
You know the GOP knows its brand is in real trouble and that the bulk of Americans don’t like their platform because 1 they brag too loudly that American do like their platform while at the same time 2 rush to ram through things with no discussion and oversight because they know attention is their enemy. They have to do it now because they fear the future and so they have to gerrymander continued relevance.
WereBear
@eclare: They also serve who bring much needed cookies :)
This is the first one my health has allowed. So I’m on alternate day bed rest until then.
I figure I’ve voted Democratic all my life, in UNION BLUE NY, the Rebellion State. That has already landed me on tRump’s enemies list, I figure.
Aren’t they attacking states in descending order of their economic significance?
Rob where the money is.
zhena gogolia
@Nelle: She isn’t perfect. But who is?
Baud
@zhena gogolia:
Ahem.
schrodingers_cat
@Baud: Baudisattva is perfection!
zhena gogolia
@WereBear: At least Dubya smirked his way through the Harvard MBA program.
schrodingers_cat
@zhena gogolia: I would take W 2.0 over T 2.0 any day.
zhena gogolia
@Baud: Oops, sorry, I forgot you.
zhena gogolia
@schrodingers_cat: Certainly.
comrade scotts agenda of rage
@schrodingers_cat:
I don’t disagree with most characterizations of Jacobin and you can see their style and point-of-view in sections of that piece. That’s easy enough to gloss over.
But it still provides a good historical overview of Applebaum’s work and mindset and isn’t out-of-line with other critiques of her I’ve read over the years and didn’t take the time to dig deeper and find.
zhena gogolia
You can always tell when I’m trying to write something (or grade papers), because my participation in BJ goes through the roof.
bbleh
@WereBear: I think it’s not just asshole kryptonite but also enforcement kryptonite. Cops are far less likely to rough up or bust the heads of people who look like their moms or aunts, and even nervous NG troops are less likely to point weapons at them.
(The same is NOT true for nonwhite day laborers and their supporters, of course, which is why the administration is going after them first.)
WereBear
@Bruce K in ATH-GR: Fools will fall for it.
They know their own audience.
Baud
@zhena gogolia:
I’m also more active here when I have other things to do.
NaijaGal
Super long – transcript of Gavin Newsom’s speech from yesterday:
Governor Newsom’s Address to California: Democracy at a Crossroads
I want to say a few words about the events of the last few days.
This past weekend, federal agents conducted large-scale workplace raids in and around Los Angeles.
Those raids continue as I speak.
California is no stranger to immigration enforcement.
But instead of focusing on undocumented immigrants with serious criminal records and people with final deportation orders – a strategy both parties have long supported – this administration is pushing mass deportations.
Indiscriminately targeting hardworking immigrant families, regardless of their roots or risk.
What’s happening right now is very different than anything we’ve seen before.
On Saturday morning, when federal agents jumped out of an unmarked van near a Home Depot parking lot, they began grabbing people.
A deliberate targeting of a heavily Latino suburb.
A similar scene also played out when a clothing company was raided downtown.
In other actions: a US citizen, 9 months pregnant – arrested. A four-year-old girl – taken.
Families separated. Friends disappearing.
In response, everyday Angelinos came out to exercise their Constitutional right to free speech and assembly
To protest their government’s actions.
In turn, the State of California and the City and County of Los Angeles sent our police officers to help keep the peace, and with some exceptions, they were successful.
Like many states, California is no stranger to this sort of civil unrest. We manage it regularly … and with our own law enforcement.
But this, again, was different.
What then ensued was the use of tear gas. Flash-bang grenades. Rubber bullets.
Federal agents, detaining people and undermining their due process rights.
Donald Trump, without consulting with California’s law enforcement leaders, commandeered 2,000 of our state’s National Guard members to deploy on our streets.
Illegally, and for no reason.
This brazen abuse of power by a sitting President inflamed a combustible situation … putting our people, our officers, and the National Guard at risk.
That’s when the downward spiral began. He doubled down on his dangerous National Guard deployment by fanning the flames even harder.
And the President did it on purpose.
As the news spread throughout LA, anxiety for family and friends ramped up. Protests started again.
By night, several dozen lawbreakers became violent and destructive. They vandalized property. They tried to assault police officers.
Many of you have seen video clips of cars burning on cable news.
If you incite violence or destroy our communities, you are going to be held accountable.
That kind of criminal behavior will not be tolerated. Full stop.
Already, more than 370 people have been arrested. And we’re reviewing tapes to build additional cases, and people will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.
Again, thanks to our law enforcement officers and the majority of Angelenos who protested peacefully, this situation was winding down and was concentrated in just a few square blocks downtown.
But that’s not what Donald Trump wanted.
He again chose escalation; he chose more force.
He chose theatrics over public safety – he federalized another 2,000 Guard members.
He deployed more than 700 active U.S. Marines.
These are men and women trained in foreign combat, not domestic law enforcement.
We honor their service. We honor their bravery. But we do not want our streets militarized by our own Armed Forces. Not in L.A. Not in California. Not anywhere.
We’re seeing unmarked cars in school parking lots. Kids, afraid to attend their own graduation.
Trump is pulling a military dragnet across LA, well beyond his stated intent to just go after violent and serious criminals.
His agents are arresting dishwashers, gardeners, day laborers and seamstresses – That’s just weakness. Weakness, masquerading as strength.
Donald Trump’s government isn’t protecting our communities – they are traumatizing our communities. And that seems to be the point.
California will keep fighting on behalf of our people – all of our people – including in the courts.
Yesterday, we filed a legal challenge to President Trump’s reckless deployment of American troops to a major American city.
Today, we sought an emergency court order to stop the use of the American military to engage in law enforcement activities across Los Angeles.
If some of us can be snatched off the streets without a warrant, based only on suspicion or skin color, then none of us are safe.
Authoritarian regimes begin by targeting people who are least able to defend themselves. But they do not stop there.
Trump and his loyalists thrive on division because it allows them to take more power and exert even more control.
By the way, Trump – he’s not opposed to lawlessness and violence, as long as it serves HIM.
What more evidence do we need than January 6th?
I ask everyone to take the time to reflect on this perilous moment.
A president who wants to be bound by no law or constitution.
Perpetrating a unified assault on American traditions.
This is a President who, in just over 140 days, has fired government watchdogs that could hold him accountable for corruption and fraud.
He’s declared a war on culture, on history, on science – on knowledge itself. Databases, quite literally vanishing.
He’s delegitimizing news organizations and assaulting the First Amendment.
At the threat of defunding them, he’s dictating what universities can teach.
Targeting law firms and the judicial branch that are the foundation of an orderly, civil society.
Calling for a sitting Governor to be arrested for no other reason than – to use his words – “for getting elected.”
And we all know, this Saturday, he’s ordering our American heroes – the United States military – forcing them to put on a vulgar display to celebrate his birthday, just as other failed dictators have done in the past.
Look, this isn’t just about protests in LA.
When Donald Trump sought blanket authority to commandeer the National Guard, he made that order apply to every state in this nation.
This is about all of us. This is about you.
California may be first – but it clearly won’t end here. Other states are next.
Democracy is next.
Democracy is under assault right before our eyes – the moment we’ve feared has arrived.
He’s taking a wrecking ball to our founding fathers’ historic project.
Three independent, coequal branches of government.
There are no longer any checks and balances. Congress is nowhere to be found. Speaker Johnson has completely abdicated that responsibility.
The rule of law has increasingly given way to the rule of Don.
The founding fathers did not live and die to see this moment.
It’s time for all of us to stand up.
Justice Brandeis said it best: in a democracy, the most important office is not president, it’s certainly not governor. The most important office is office of citizen.
At this moment, we must all stand up and be held to a higher level of accountability.
If you exercise your First Amendment rights, please do so peacefully.
I know many of you are feeling deep anxiety, stress, and fear.
But I want you to know that YOU are the antidote to that fear and anxiety.
What Donald Trump wants most is your fealty. Your silence. To be complicit in this moment.
Do NOT give in to him.
eclare
@Baud:
Kimmel has been really good lately.
Omnes Omnibus
@Betty Cracker: Applebaum is one the the neocons who turned to actually really believe the democracy stuff that they were selling. See also, Jennifer Rubin and Bill Kristol. Does the fact that they all Jewish come into play? I’ll leave that to the reader.
Michael Bersin
@billcoop4:
PVC pipe (3/4 inch), end caps. Drill through at contact points, multiple zip ties through hole/flag grommets. Voila!
comrade scotts agenda of rage
@schrodingers_cat:
That one falls into the category of “Which eye would you rather have poked out with a fiery stick, left or right?”
Hair Furor is, and even the disparate, bickering commentariat here will agree on this, an existential threat to this country.
Others will counter that Dubya has a lot of Iraqi blood on his hands, 200K worth.
I always say that the Bushies laid the foundation for massively deviating from previous norms in terms of government and governing and for their time, were beyond fucking godawful. They were just quiet about it. And the Orange Fart Cloud has turned that project up to 11.
eclare
@WereBear:
I hear that’s why people rob banks :)
I hope you have a great day this Saturday. Stay safe.
Steve LaBonne
@Omnes Omnibus: I imagine it does come into play, as it should. They have not forgotten the train that is never late.
Surly Duff
You’re setting yourself up to be disappointed. Whether it’s 10,000 or 10 million people taking to the streets, it will not make a lick of difference to the administration. They will instigate violence and press on with their agenda, regardless.
More importantly, in 2025, the relative intensity of demonstrations has ZERO correlation to the ONLY thing that matters in terms of effecting change – that is, defeating Trump and Republicans in actual elections. (Impeachment and removal is not happening – and even if it did, it would not change the course of policy.)
It is extremely frustrating, I get it, but this cake was baked on November 5, 2024.
Steve LaBonne
@comrade scotts agenda of rage: There is a very good chance, which we all need to work to turn into reality, that turning it up to 11 is not actually a good political strategy.
Betty Cracker
@NaijaGal: Excellent speech. Thanks for posting it.
Betty Cracker
@Surly Duff: So go hide in a closet and suck your thumb.
Baud
@Surly Duff:
I agree elections are the most important thing. But I disagree with the idea that nothing effects Trump. We absolutely will not stop many bad things from happening, but people can move the needle through their actions, even if they can’t perceive the effect directly.
Surly Duff
@Betty Cracker: Thanks for the suggestion, but I’ve got plenty of other things to do this weekend (that also won’t have any discernable effect on policy or any future election)
Interesting Name Goes Here
Once again, all I can do is look at everyone clamoring for a fight and a revolution and the chance to be the Hero of their own stories and ask…WHERE THE FUCK WERE YOU ALL ON NOVEMBER 5, 2024? WHERE WERE YOU WHEN PEOPLE NEEDED YOU? WHY ARE YOU SHOWING UP NOW?
Baud
@Interesting Name Goes Here:
I don’t understand the assumption that most of the protestors didn’t vote for Harris.
May be a better assumption for people online.
Old School
Gloria DryGarden
@NotMax: if I liked beer, I’d go for the nonalcoholic stuff. .
And yeah the ads on Hulu / starz are crazy. Horror movie ads late at night, please, and drugs, so many drugs, side effects are mostly trigger warning stuff. And then ads that are cheery and sane washing, when they are companies I will not buy from. Chick fil a, hobby lobby, so much anti gay donating they do.
But the ads are all happy and pretty and wholesome and delicious.
schrodingers_cat
@Baud: Me three.
schrodingers_cat
@comrade scotts agenda of rage: Agreed. And even the worst D president/presidential hopeful would be better than either of those two.
But
W 2.0 >> T 2.0 still stands.
Surly Duff
@Baud: In terms of effecting change, elections are the only important thing.
I’m not saying people shouldn’t protest. Engaging with a like-minded community is always rewarding, and it feels good to speak your mind. But we need to be realistic about what it can accomplish.
Therefore, in my opinion, the turnout this weekend will say nothing about whether “Americans are up to the task” to save democracy or some such.
We won’t know the answer to that question until 2026.
Everything else is just therapy.
Belafon
@Surly Duff: We’re you that guy in the first season of Andor at the work prison who kept predicting failure?
Baud
@Surly Duff:
I agree with everything except your last sentence.
Your first sentence isn’t universally true either, but it is true when the other party is a fascist party.
But if Republicans get rid of elections, then there will have to be other important things.
twbrandt
I’m going to the one at Clark Park in Detroit.
bbleh
@Surly Duff: I’d say you’re mostly right that demonstrations won’t make much difference to at least some of the people calling the shots in this administration, although I’d observe that the TACO Guy is VERY sensitive to TV imagery.
But you’re surely wrong that “the relative intensity of demonstrations has ZERO correlation to the ONLY thing that matters in terms of effecting change – that is, defeating Trump and Republicans in actual elections.” Demonstrations, and the activities they spawn and support, are CRUCIAL to later elections. They train and energize activists at all levels, they build and strengthen local organizations, and they energize both supporters who participate and those who merely observe, even just on TV or their phones. Those things in turn make BIG differences in subsequent elections.
One thing Republicans have done MUCH better than Dems over the past decades has been organizing and fighting and recruiting at state and local levels, including identifying issues and building groups that persist BETWEEN elections. Those things give them a ready-made base for national election efforts, while by contrast Dems have had to start in many respects from scratch every cycle.
We’re starting to catch up. And demonstrations are an important part of that.
Gloria DryGarden
@Baud: agree. Appreciate to positive aim, “en adelante “
We are moving the needle, and it’s worthwhile to do so.
It’s that positive present tense affirmation stuff I wrote about a month ago +-. And to all the comments around here w negative predictions, I announce out loud, cancel cancel, delete delete.
(I understand despair. But affirming negative outcomes is an unkind practice, a fear mongering practice, [who’s team are they on?] and doesn’t move us forward. )
Trollhattan
Brian Wilson r.i.p.
Humble troubled genius. This one hurts.
Interesting Name Goes Here
@Baud: Because I would lay good money on the bet that the majority of the people who are out there now were online first, listening to influencers call Kamala Harris a bitch and telling everyone in earshot not to vote. Now that that which was warned about is coming to pass, they’re all “No! No! This isn’t right! This is not what I wanted!”
Fuck them. This is exactly what they wanted – they were just too stupid and/or too scared to buck up and acknowledge that.
UncleEbeneezer
@schrodingers_cat: The Atlantic is surprisingly good on Israel/Palestine. Yair Rosenberg wrote an excellent article (gift link below) about how tolerating violence and persecution of Jews actually makes Zionism more popular. While Progressives often won’t admit it, the whole reason Zionism was necessary was because of global antisemitism that played out everywhere for centuries. The way to make Zionism obsolete is to actually stand up (and make the world safe) for Jews. Sadly the people who SHOULD BE committed to that goal are usually too caught up in Soviet, Anti-Zionist bullshit to bother.
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2025/06/anti-semitic-attacks-only-make-zionism-more-appealing/683055/?gift=Y5UOGK3oJJO3esRHvDP7oSHkfIoUwI3Tk0yfDRgbfuc&utm_source=copy-link&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=share
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@Surly Duff: Then explain how Trump got the nickname TACO.
Nelle
@zhena gogolia: You are reminding me of how I ever got my cleaning done. Everything folded and tidy before I could start on that stack of essays.
Betty Cracker
@Surly Duff: If we’re to defeat fascism, the broader public needs to understand that the president is a fascist and that he and his party are converting our democracy into a fascist autocracy. An election isn’t going to tell them that. The mainstream press won’t either. Seeing millions of fellow citizens on the street, in large cities and small towns, has a chance of breaking through and building a permission structure to resist. THEN maybe we’ll get the election results we need. You seemed to be saying protests don’t matter. If so, you are wrong.
twbrandt
@Old School: Sly Stone the other day, now Brian Wilson.
Gloria DryGarden
@NaijaGal: thank you for this.
I’ve been wondering if you used to be in Denver. I may have met you at a fair, with your books.
rikyrah
Edward Wong
@ewong
NEW: The board of the Fulbright Program has just resigned after accusing Trump aides of political interference. They say a State Dept. office under Rubio and Darren Beattie has cancelled scholarships to nearly 200 US professors and researchers. Story:
https://x.com/ewong/status/1932808974476144820
Archon
@Surly Duff: The truth for me is protests are necessary to make sure we actually have elections and to remind Trump and the oligarchs that they don’t have the power or popular mandate to cancel them without America imploding.
Surly Duff
@Interesting Name Goes Here: @Baud:
Obviously, the protestors are 99.9% Harris voters and non-voters.
But I get where Interesting Name is coming from.
The time to express your opinion in a democracy is election day. We had our chance and we failed.
Now, eight months later, your willingness to go outside and hold a sign or a bullhorn does not mean that you are entitled to an extra vote. It does not mean your opinion is more important than anyone else’s.
Yes, it may be therapeutic, and that’s great, but it’s not going to “move the needle” any more than a hastily-scribbled letter to your Congressman would.
Nelle
@Baud: As with so much of life. Teachers never know their reach or lack thereof. I’m so fortunate to have reconnected with some of the students I taught forty years ago, and man, is that gratifying. Does the medical team that delivered my premie grandson three weeks ago today understand how magnificent they are? How grateful we are?
We do the next right thing and have to trust the water to carry the ripples to others, to the shore.
Betty Cracker
@Interesting Name Goes Here: Have you been to a protest?
Kristine
@zhena gogolia: ::waves in solidarity::
rikyrah
Brian Wilson, The Beach Boys Co-Founder and Singer, Dies at 82
The music icon helped define the “California sound” with the American rock ‘n’ roll boy band he formed with his family members and a friend
By Stacy Lambe Published on June 11, 2025 12:54PM EDT
Brian Wilson, the pop music genius and singer who co-founded the Beach Boys, has died. He was 82.
The musician’s family announced his death on Wednesday, June 11 in an Instagram post featuring a recent photo of the star smiling on a bench.
“We are heartbroken to announce that our beloved father Brian Wilson has passed away,” the statement read. “We are at a loss for words right now. Please respect our privacy at this time as our family is grieving. We realize that we are sharing our grief with the world. Love & Mercy.”
Described by PEOPLE in 1975 as the “formative genius of the group,” Wilson served as the rock band’s songwriter and co-lead vocalist and also played bass guitar and keyboard alongside brothers, Dennis and Carl Wilson, cousin Mike Love and friend Al Jardine, who all were part of the original lineup.
https://people.com/brian-wilson-dead-82-beach-boys-singer-co-founder-8548234
WereBear
@twbrandt: Didn’t know about Sly Stone! Always up for those albums.
rikyrah
MeidasTouch
@MeidasTouch
The Department of Homeland Security announces ICE and Customs and Border Protection agents will be stationed at Hard Rock Stadium as part of the FIFA Club World Cup’s security efforts, sparking concerns from non-citizen fans.
https://x.com/MeidasTouch/status/1932832919355379952
Geminid
@Surly Duff: I think these protests can help build morale and maintain it. Morale is an intangible quality, but it’s no less important for that.
My morale has held up pretty well, and that is one of tbe reasons I haven’t gone to a protest. But I don’t expect others to be this way. For one thing, we’re all made differently and for another, I am under less threat than many other people.
I know what you are saying about the midterms. One of my first thoughts November 6 was “Welp, gotta take the House back like we did in 2018.” But these protests don’t hurt that cause and can made to further it.
Soprano2
@NaijaGal: I heard a good report on what’s happening in L.A. on 1A this morning. She was a Los Angeles Times reporter who said the number of protesters is relatively small and the protests are limited to a certain small area. I wish more of the press would make sure people know this. It’s occurred to me that people who grew up in small towns and have never travelled much can’t comprehend how big a place like Los Angeles is, so they think it’s like where they live.
Surly Duff
@Betty Cracker: OK – I went a bit too far by saying there is ZERO correlation between the intensity of protests and future election results.
It is a very tenuous correlation, though, and it is not always a positive one.
Interesting Name Goes Here
@Betty Cracker: Yes. I attended a couple of the Freddie Gray protests, covering them for a school paper that I was enrolled in at the time.
What does that have to do with the here and now? What does that have to do with people reacting to Trump the same way Data’s daughter reacted to a ball being tossed her way?
Elizabelle
Good article, Betty C. Thank you for spotlighting it; will read it later.
Got to make some signs today and tomorrow! We in Richmond VA might be looking at T storms around protest time — and maybe that will happen to the Felon’s Big Beautiful Boondoggle Parade 2 hours north in DC too. To find out. Going to swathe the signs in a clear trash bag; hope that might protect them.
AM in NC
@schrodingers_cat: Please read George’s comment at #4.
Is bashing on Democrats really the most effective thing we can do to fight authoritarianism right now?
Soprano2
@schrodingers_cat: I wondered about burning the Waymo cars. Was that protestors, or people who thought it would be funny to see how many they could set on fire? We know that mischief makers always take advantage of protests to do things like that, or it’s possible that it’s agitators.
Surly Duff
@Enhanced Voting Techniques: “TACO” is an excuse for hedge-fund managers and investment bankers to continue to support the GOP despite the constant stream of crazy coming out of the WH.
It’s just another version of “take him seriously, but not literally.”
Belafon
@Surly Duff:
Even I know this is false. The time to determine who gets into office is election day. At every other time you talk to your fellow citizens, your elected officials from the bottom up, and, when you feel that fails, you take advantage of your rights to gather in groups and make your voice heard.
Belafon
@rikyrah: “You might look like a citizen from Brazil, but what if you’re actually the guy building my house and need to be deported?”
Belafon
@AM in NC: As long as it’s about the people who beat the drum forcing Biden out and told Walz to stop saying weird, it’s ok.
WereBear
@rikyrah: We might have a new saying.
“They could mess up a World Cup before it even starts.”
Elizabelle
@rikyrah: FIFA should pull the World Cup, and LA should not be hosting the next Olympics given that miles of neighborhoods went up in flames this January. Money can be better spent elsewhere.
Use the actual reason that athletes, fans, and guests are in danger of being arrested or harassed. Incarcerated, in this country, if they are fortunate. In El Salvador or Gitmo or dog knows where else if not.
We would not let North Korea, Haiti, or Russia, now that it has invaded Ukraine, host a major international sports event now or in the near future. (Aware Russia hosted the 2014 Winter Olympics in Sochi.)
The US of Trump is a rogue nation. It has entered a criminal regime hall of fame.
Pull the major international sports events.
The NBA showed the way in North Carolina a few years ago with the ridiculous bathroom (gender) bills.
Why allow Trump to present a 1936 Berlin Olympics facade?
We are not in normal times. Let’s not let the media and big money try to pretend that we are.
Betty Cracker
@Interesting Name Goes Here: I asked because maybe if you had attended an anti-Trump protest, you wouldn’t be making incorrect assumptions about the politics of the protesters, i.e., that all or most didn’t vote for Harris. It’s bullshit.
rikyrah
Southern California boy deported to Honduras following ICE detainment by: Vivian Chow Posted: Jun 10, 2025 / 10:58 PM PDT Updated: Jun 10, 2025 / 10:58 PM PDT
A Southern California fourth grader who was detained by immigration officials was deported and is now living with his father in Honduras. Martir Garcia Lara, 9, is adjusting to his new life in the small town of Temputitalpa. “I was scared to come here,” he shared in an interview with Univision. Lara was a student at Torrance Elementary School whose detainment sparked outrage from teachers and community members who knew the boy.
On May 29, he attended an immigration hearing in downtown Los Angeles with his father, Martir Garcia-Banegas, 50. Instead of receiving an update on their immigration status, the boy and his father were detained by U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE). After a short separation, the next day, they were transferred to an immigration facility in Texas with plans to deport them to Honduras. https://ktla.com/news/local-news/southern-california-boy-deported-to-honduras-following-ice-detainment/
Gloria DryGarden
A little boost from George Clooney in good night and good luck
Betty Cracker
@Belafon: Actually, it’s pretty fucking tiresome then too. (Speaking for myself.)
zhena gogolia
@Geminid:
This is me. My morale was much worse the first time around. Although I think my anger is more intense this time, and bursts out in unrelated areas of life.
Elizabelle
Brian Wilson of the Beach Boys and Sly Stone gone the same week. Rest in power, and thank you for the music.
Soprano2
@Baud: I also think it helps people realize they aren’t alone in their unhappiness about what’s happening, especially in more conservative places like where I live. I assume that most of the people around me are either FFOTUS supporters or trend toward that end of the political spectrum even if they aren’t particularly political. Sometimes I’m pleasantly surprised by people, but most of the time I’m not. I’ve been pleasantly surprised by some of the people I only know casually on FB.
geg6
RIP Brian Wilson. Very sad.
Omnes Omnibus
I am pretty sure that the Venn diagram of protesters who were eligible to vote and protesters who voted for Harris would have a massive overlap.
geg6
@Elizabelle:
Yes. It’s like 2016 all over again.
Matt McIrvin
@geg6: Didn’t know he was still alive.
WereBear
@geg6: In 2016 I was figuratively patted on the head and told he was a biznessman and he wasn’t going to mess with bizness.
Interesting Name Goes Here
@Betty Cracker: Tell that to the people I encounter in my daily life, online and off.
AWOL
@Surly Duff: Yes, resistance is futile. Bootlegger Joseph Kennedy proved that in 1940.
eclare
@WereBear:
The USMNT is also trying to do that by losing 4-0 to Switzerland last night. If the US were not one of the hosts, the US would not be in it.
Surly Duff
@Belafon: Do you think your voice isn’t being heard?
Who could possibly live on this planet and not be aware that there are tens of millions of American voters who passionately disapprove of the president and everything he stands for?
The hard truth is this: Your voice is being heard, loud and clear. But it’s not loud enough to elect the right people. And the people in charge don’t care what you’re saying.
snoey
@Elizabelle: FIFA and the Olympic committee are both amoral corrupt grifters. Unless it threatens ticket sales or broadcast rights ….
zhena gogolia
@Surly Duff: We didn’t lose by that much. I’m afraid your comments are starting to look like a campaign of discouragement and disinformation.
Matt McIrvin
@Geminid: I am far worse this time. In 2016 I was pretty sure there would be midterm elections. I am not now.
Betty Cracker
@Interesting Name Goes Here: You might find a better set of people if you attend a nearby No Kings rally on Saturday. But you already know everything about them, so never mind. Just keep screaming in all caps and bold font at a blog where everybody voted for Harris and raised a bunch of money for Democrats.
Aziz, light!
@Soprano2: In Portland, every peaceful demonstration by thousands of protesters is hijacked by a handful of destructive anarchists who are of course well loved by the noise machine.
WereBear
@Matt McIrvin: We had special elections and the results have the GOP lining up at the White House Drug Den… whoops, I mean seeing Dr Feelgood, no wait…
Omnes Omnibus
Don’t underestimate the morale boost that massive protests can have on people being targeted and on lonely Dems in bright red states. This is going to be a long slog and anything we can do to keep people’s spirits up is a good thing. Everything does not have to have an immediate tangible result.
Surly Duff
@zhena gogolia: I don’t intend to discourage or misinform.
I just want people to be realistic about what protests can accomplish (short term and long term).
And don’t read too much into this weekend.
If the turnout isn’t great – or if it is great but leads to not-great results – don’t be discouraged about our prospects to defeat the fascist tide.
Focus, relentlessly, on winning elections. That is the only goal.
WereBear
I’ve voted Democratic, always in NY for decades. If there’s a list, I’m on it. I’m not worried about that.
They are being completely indiscriminate about who they hurt. So they are now screwing around with the lives of everyone.
These are not micro-managers.
Mike E
Looks like I’m stepping back into the pie pantry, heh…oh I’d druther catch covid again than pine for the W admin (doing neither is my preferred option tho)
Dorothy A. Winsor
The more I watched events in LA, the madder I got at the presumption that the govt had the right to trample all over us like this. So I signed on for a No Kings demo on Saturday. I’ll be a thousand times safer than those Home Deport workers. No one is likely to throw a flash bang at a bunch of old white ladies. But it’s what I can do
Emily B.
@comrade scotts agenda of rage: I just finished Applebaum’s Autocracy, Inc. Worth reading. It’s a short book that sounds the alarm about how authoritarian governments around the world are using the same tactics and often (but not always) coordinating with each other to undermine democracy. The Jacobin reviewer apparently wishes that she had written a different book that implicates capitalism and US imperialism as well.
Geminid
@Soprano2: The Los Angeles Times published a good article yesterday that speaks to this question generally. It’s titled, “Protesters or agitators: who is driving chaos at L.A. immigration protests?”
https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2025-06-10/protesters-or-agitators-who-are-drivers-of-chaos-at-immigrations-protests
Betty Cracker
@Omnes Omnibus: Exactly right, and thank you for saying it.
AM in NC
@Surly Duff: Will mass protests stop Trump from being Trump? No, and nobody participating thinks they will. BUT, the protests energize resistance in myriad ways; they foster community among protestors and let us know that we are not alone; they let “normies” know that the loud MAGA hordes are outnumbered; they force the media to cover push-back against MAGA authoritarianism; and they energize people for continued actions against the repressive government.
Please don’t be one of those people who pre-surrenders to evil. Light a candle against the darkness.
WereBear
@WereBear: Wait a minute, can I be on a Certain Former Guy’s LIST?
Did I make a Republican President’s Enemies List?
There’s another life goal, handled.
Old Man Shadow
I don’t know how things will end here in Los Angeles.
I strongly suspect that Trump will declare flawless victory at some point and shit will resume whatever passes for normal these days until the next time ununiformed, unnamed kidnappers show up to grab innocent people. Then we might be back here again.
I don’t think he has the fucking guts to actually order troops to open fire on people.
California and Los Angeles and San Francisco will continue to be demonized and the Americans who live here will be dehumanized and it will just be common knowledge in the rest of America that our cities are on fire because we let THOSE people live here and run free and that’s what THOSE people do.
I really hate the dumb fucks that fall for that shit and hate us.
Redshift
@Interesting Name Goes Here:
Weird how the zero overlap in people you encounter proves that’s 100% true but the major overlap in people I encounter doesn’t prove it’s 100% false. Maybe that says more about the kind of people you associate with than about everyone who is involved in protests.
Geminid
@Emily B.: I think you misspelled Jerkobin.
Repatriated
@Belafon:
The other thing that nonviolent protests do is demonstrate the ability to get a large number of people to go to a designated place on a specific day and time, and stay there for a while.
Which is exactly what they’d be capable of on a Tuesday in a November.
It’s like a crowdsourced poll of sorts, with extra earned-media value tossed in for good measure.
Tazj
I was glad to see that from Rachel Maddow. I needed the reminder that Trump isn’t popular.
WereBear
Especially in my small town, where any random lady went to school or worked with someone who knew your mom. Or, it could be your mom.
If it comes, it won’t be town police, but troopers, I’d say. As Donald Westlake wrote in a thriller:
AM in NC
@Interesting Name Goes Here: So the OVERWHELMING number of people who have been at the demonstrations in Durham, NC have been middle-aged and above and have (I would be willing to bet my kids’ lives) been consistently VOTING to stop MAGA/GOP.
I think you are looking at the small sliver of protestors setting cars on fire and thinking that’s most of us. It’s just not. We’re the moms/dads/grandmas/grandpas doing the daily work of registering voters, going to precinct meetings and making sure everyone we know votes. Truly.
dm
@Surly Duff: I think large demonstrations affect politicians at all levels. Sure, Trump and Stephen Miller are committed to their course of action, but House members and Senators notice. Governors and legislators notice. Judges notice (though they’ll pretend not to).
And, you know, demonstrations have led to change in places where they don’t have elections. Why think they’ll have little effect in places that do have them?
Surly Duff
@Aziz, light!:
This is what I fear protestors are not appreciating. Large crowds make it impossible to separate legitimate actors from instigators. And MAGA-era Republicans specialize in false-flag shenanigans.
Protesting may be a great way to network and keep spirits up, but there are downside risks which some people are just plain ignoring.
Interesting Name Goes Here
@Omnes Omnibus: I don’t underestimate that impact.
What I’m now questioning, particularly after November 5, is why it never takes. We should not have to be here doing this again. And if it didn’t take in 2004 or 2010 or 2014 or 2016 or 2022 or 2024, then when will it take? More importantly, what will it take? Another financial crash? Another global pandemic? Maybe all-out war? Seems like those are the only times anyone will actively say to themselves, “Hey, you know, this actually sucks.”
schrodingers_cat
@AM in NC: Pie me if you want. I have not forgiven or forgotten what the party elders did to Joe Biden. You are asking me to shut up and fall in line when there has been no discussion* (within the party, I am not talking about BJ) about what happened in July and how Biden’s supporters felt about it. The opposite has happened people are still dunking on him after his cancer diagnosis was made public.
We are here in this position because of what happened almost a year ago.
Belafon
@Surly Duff: That’s the thing, we know that. We know that the marches aren’t going to cause the administration to disappear because the universe realized it allowed a mistake. None of us are acting like it’s November 4th. But you can’t act like it’s over either. To paraphrase Mark Watney, you do one thing, and then the next, and then the next, and hopefully you get to have your democracy again.
Baud
@Interesting Name Goes Here:
What is the sound of one hand clapping?
Who the hell knows?
It’s important to recognize that a lot of people don’t want to join with us. But blaming ourselves or getting frustrated by other people’s decisions doesn’t help us. Various people have various ideas about what to do, and maybe one of them will work one day.
Redshift
@Old Man Shadow:
I think it’s telling that he (or more likely Stephen Miller or Russel Vought) is pushing the boundaries on domestic use of troops, and then (as far as I’ve heard) keeping them restricted to the only plausibly legal use, protecting federal property. It seems to be only ICE and local cops who are firing tear gas/pepper balls and rubber bullets.
If they’re smart (and I’m certainly not assuming they are), they may be using this to normalize the idea of troops on the streets and blurring the boundary of the few things they should be able to do without a governor’s cooperation, rather than building up for a near-term military crackdown.
schrodingers_cat
@UncleEbeneezer: Thanks. I follow Rosenberg on Twitter. I will read your gift article. The usual smug claptrap on Atlantic is a turn off for me.
zhena gogolia
@Repatriated: I guess what always depresses me is that I took the massive Harris-Walz rallies as a kind of poll as well, but that turned out not to be accurate.
AM in NC
@schrodingers_cat: Oh I agree with you that what happened to Biden was wrong and dumb. But I just don’t think re-hashing it over and over and over again is the best use of our limited time and energy. YMMV.
Baud
@zhena gogolia:
Agreed. Protest size is a data point. Not an augur.
schrodingers_cat
@AM in NC: I will say what I want to say. Its not a rehash its a reminder. You don’t have to read my comments.
Lyrebird
@billcoop4: Wow. I’m closer to Albany, there’s one on Wolf Rd that sounds do-able.
I’m nervous not so much for me as for my kids. We are a multicolor multiculti rainbow family, they would stay home, but I can’t *do* stuff that is high risk now
Warrensburg is probably where having another person show up would make the most difference… Go Bill Coop!
Repatriated
@Interesting Name Goes Here:
Don’t worry, all of those are waiting in the wings.
Omnes Omnibus
@Surly Duff: There a thread below talking about how to be safe.
schrodingers_cat
As I said in the earlier thread, I am not in a frame of mind where I want to go protest but I am not going to critcize those that are protesting. More power to them.
Omnes Omnibus
@Surly Duff: Can you name any action that does not have downside risks?
Surly Duff
@dm: For now, the House and Senate have GOP majorities.
Do you think a single member of those majorities is influenced at all by public anti-administation protests?
Do you think swing-state senators like Ron F’ing Johnson care one iota about what a bunch of anti-Trump protestors think?
Why would they? As far as they are concerned, every single protestor voted against them. They don’t need to address the protestors’ concerns to win re-election.
In fact, they’d have good reason to believe that supporting violence against the protestors would excite their base and be an electoral advantage….
Surly Duff
@Omnes Omnibus: Donating $100 monthly to the Democratic National Committee
zhena gogolia
Like I said.
schrodingers_cat
@Soprano2: IDK who is actually setting the cars on fire. But the smug tankies on Twitter justifying it as a moral thing to do was off putting. Not only that they were ganging up against people who said that was not the best look for the protests
The purity left is toxic and costs us elections.
Redshift
deleted
TEL
@Enhanced Voting Techniques: That’s kind of how I’m seeing it. He’s big mad and just going to keep doing stupid shit, hoping for traction. I think all of these predictions about using the National Guard in LA helping Trump are misreading the room, or purposely seeing things from his point of view.
Redshift
Another one for pie. I’ve got no time for anyone who is sure everything but their approved action is a waste of time, and I’ll take the word of people who’ve seen from the inside what influences congressional offices and others who’ve studied and quantified effective resistance to authoritarianism over someone who’s in the Schumer/Carville camp of “we should just keep our heads down until the next election.”
Captain C
@snoey: Arresting, deporting, and/or brutalizing a nontrivial number of international soccer fans, all of whom can afford to travel here and buy tickets and some of whom might be affluent and influential in their home countries, could cause enough problems for FIFA that they might be compelled to act, even if only after the fact. At that point, the IOC might look to dust off its emergency plans for moving the Olympics with 2 years of lead time.
Omnes Omnibus
@Surly Duff: Nope, that still has downside risks. For one thing it means your name on a list. Is it much of a risk? No, but it exists.
Matt McIrvin
@Old Man Shadow:
I thought he already gave that order in 2020 and Mark Milley actually refused.
Baud
@Omnes Omnibus:
Yeah, the email fundraising list. I’ll face the dogs and rubber bullets, thank you very much.
zhena gogolia
@Baud: 😂
Surly Duff
@Redshift: We all want the same thing; we’re just arguing over how to achieve it.
I’ll tell you one thing though: It would take one hell of a study to convince me that GOP congresspeople (i.e., the people in charge right now) are influenced at all by public protests. These are ideologues, pure and simple.
Often, keeping your head down and focused on the target is the best way to reach the goal.
dm
@Surly Duff: Yes, actually, I do. And the balance is such that it only takes a couple to decide to sit on their hands or, maybe just not be present for some vote or another to make a difference.
It also energizes the opposition, including the ones in Congress, but also the ones thinking about running for Congress or city council or legislature.
Elections don’t happen in a vacuum.
Betty Cracker
@Matt McIrvin: You are correct. Maybe Trump wouldn’t have the guts (or sufficient finger length) to pull the trigger himself, but he’s definitely capable of winding thugs up and sending them off to cause harm. Did so on January 6, 2021 in fact.
Professor Bigfoot
Me, I’m gonna take the advice of the sisters and the aunties and keep my Black ass home.
I’ll be rooting for all of you who go, though!
Mike E
@Redshift: I had cleared the filter awhile back (after the recriminations had died down post election) so these two are my first since then. I don’t want to read SC’s bitter and repetitive comments but I don’t pie regulars anymore (tho that certainly can happen, still I’d rather see what all the cool kids are saying!)
WereBear
@Professor Bigfoot: You have done much and you are needed.
So, lay that burden down. Rest a bit. Know you are appreciated.
hotshoe
@Surly Duff:
which you in your superior foresight have been eager to use as an excuse to do nothing
of course, meanwhile ignoring the “downside risk” of doing nothing, of not protesting, of allowing your neighbors, your city and state politicians, and the national media to all believe that we don’t care about Dumpster’s unconstitutional conduct.
You, Surly Smurf, are a self-satisfied fool.
Surly Duff
@Omnes Omnibus: I am not a paranoid conspiracy theorist; therefore, I don’t believe that having my name on the DNC monthly donor list would be a risk to me or my family. (Besides, my name is already on lots of government lists, like Social Security and Selective Service)
On the other hand, you do not need to be a paranoid conspiracy theorist to believe that large political protests tend to be hijacked by agitators and present a substantial risk of non-desirable results.
Surly Duff
@hotshoe: By all means, protest if it makes you feel good – but be clear-eyed about what it will likely accomplish, and don’t be surprised if it backfires.
Omnes Omnibus
@Surly Duff: Bored now.
Elizabelle
@Surly Duff: Says mystery commenter who just showed up.
What a surprise.
Surly Duff
@Omnes Omnibus: I’m happy to be of service whenever you need correcting.
Surly Duff
@Elizabelle: You should be nice to strangers.
Besides, I’ve been posting here since the Schiavo days, under a different nym.
Matt McIrvin
@Professor Bigfoot: 100% understood.
Suzanne
@Omnes Omnibus:
Agreed. Which makes the sniping at protestors who were DOIN IT RONG counterproductive at best.
If you looked at the pro-immigration protests that broke out in the last few days and decided to come away from that criticizing the protestors…. congratulations, you’re basically of the same mindset as the media, always criticizing our own side, punching left and never right. Especially when these are not elected pols with a staff and media consultants.
snoey
@Captain C: The Club World Cup is not the World Cup. International soccer fans are have little problem ignoring them even without Trump. We’ll see what happens next year.
NaijaGal
@Gloria DryGarden: You’re welcome. Because I teach and have a full time job, I only had a small number of book fairs and book related events so I never made it to Denver for my book promotion.
I have attempted to ski in Steamboat Springs with hilarious results for anyone watching and a sore behind for me. That’s the only time I’ve been in Colorado.
Elizabelle
@Surly Duff: Did you have to adopt your current ‘nym because people figured you out and got sick of you?
Truth in labeling would be Squirrely Sit on your Duff, Libtards!
We are usually kind and inclusive to those who comment in good faith.
Suzanne
@Professor Bigfoot: Good for you, you definitely deserve a break.
I might go on Saturday, checking to see if the weather is going to hold out. SuzMom wants to go. Her mobility has been significantly impaired in the last couple of years. So I want to take her, but we gotta see what she can handle. I offered to buy her a walker with a folding seat.
NaijaGal
@Omnes Omnibus: This right here!
Baud
@Professor Bigfoot:
I saw a debate about that on Reddit. Some black folks seem to be getting antsy about things heating up. I thought it was an interesting discussion.
Surly Duff
@Elizabelle: So… anyone who disagrees with you on the efficacy of mass protest is a right-wing troll arguing in bad faith?
hotshoe
@Omnes Omnibus:
The most obvious risk of donating to the DNC is that they waste the money on ultimately-pointless consultants and ineffective NPR-type advertising.
And unless ya are the kind of person with hundreds of thousands of dollars to throw around every month, choosing to donate $100 to the DNC each month means NOT choosing to donate it to some better, more specific, more productive cause.
Elizabelle
@Surly Duff: No. But saying that is generally the tack trolls take. It is textbook.
hotshoe
@Surly Duff: Note you did not volunteer any explanation why you had to change your ‘nym. What are you trying to hide?
The Unmitigated Gaul
@schrodingers_cat: The opposite.
VFX Lurker
He can’t swim.
Belafon
@Suzanne: I can admire them for protesting – which is why my sons and I will be finally doing the march this Saturday – and still think that waving the Mexican flag was the wrong one to wave. I want ICE and the administration to quit what they’re doing, release those they have in custody, and return the ones they sent away, and I want that to be the sole message.
Surly Duff
@Elizabelle: If you assume that anyone disagreeing with you is a bad-faith troll, you will never be exposed to contrary opinions, and you will end up believing incorrect things. Be more open-minded.
(I know, I know, that’s just what a troll would say….)
schrodingers_cat
@Belafon: Well said.
Omnes Omnibus
@Surly Duff: If you assume that every who disagrees with you here presumes everyone they disagree with is a bad faith troll, you will end up believing untrue things.
geg6
@WereBear:
Just to more clear, I mean that Sly and Brian Wilson passing in quick succession feels like 2016 when Bowie and Prince died. Drumpf lurking in the background in both sets of deaths is only secondary.
hotshoe
@dm:
Yes, this is one of the big points for No Kings protests.
Without pushback now against the Reichwing, people are going to decide NOT to run as Dems next year. People are going to tell their would-be supporters “no one cares about democracy, what’s the point”. Why risk sticking yer neck out as a Dem politician if the citizens have already acquiesced to Discount Store Goebbels?
Instead, we all come out to publicly protest for our Constitutional rights and in support of American ideals of democracy, people are going to be energized to run and win as Dems.
The Fox-poisoned news media are still going to lie about protests, minimize the citizen aspect, maximize the “insurrection” aspect. But the local politicians will know that a hundred peaceful people showed up on a town street with No Kings. And half of those hundred were/will be the vote margin the mayor needs to get elected next year.
Juju
@hotshoe: Also, if the DNC ever gets your cellphone number they never leave you alone, and then they sell it to other groups and you end up with dozens of text messages and you can do the stop thing for that number but they must have 100s of other numbers. That’s a downside.
Professor Bigfoot
@Baud: I remember the reaction to the BLM protests.
There’s no doubt in my mind that if Black people show up in real numbers, bullets will fly. And that will be the excuse for the declaration of martial law.
(Marshall Law was not available for comment)
Juju
@geg6: And Carrie Fisher and Debbie Reynolds and Mary Tyler Moore and Alan Rickman.
sab
@Professor Bigfoot: I completely agree with you. I thought that was pretty much why BLM shut itself down before.
sab
@NotMax: I like alchohol free drinks sometimes, but many are awful. Alcohol free Guinness tastes like grass clipping tea with suds. Fre wine is okay. O’ Doul’s is nearly as bad as Guinness. Sharps is okay. There is a good no alcohol beer that is actually good but I forget the name. Either Heineken or Molson. Probably Molson.
Bill Arnold
@Soprano2:
I read (somewhere on social media) that one justification was that those cars have cameras and that the company has been known to share video with law enforcement.
Given that most businesses in the area and many private doors should be expected to have cameras as well, and etc, and burning looks very bad on (Fox News etc) video, it’s a sorry excuse if true.
Wear masks if possible, maybe ones that strongly resemble the ones that ICE people wear.
dnfree
@schrodingers_cat: “Stuttered and had a cold” is your repeated minimization of that debate.
sconosciuto
I hope he hangs in there
Interesting Name Goes Here
@dnfree: And look at how razor-sharp he’s been compared to the jagoff you think did better.
Professor Bigfoot
@dnfree: More accurate than most descriptions.
Hosted the NATO presidents in that same week(?) none of whom saw any kind of deficit in his capabilities.
So… no, not a “minimization.”
BellyCat
Protests = Good. General strikes = Betterer.
PatrickG
@Baud: protests are a waste of time. we can get a winning coalition on the STOP text issues alone! /s
more seriously, I’m disappointed I can’t protest this weekend. But I’ll be throwing money at everything to make up for it, since I’m privileged to do so. And I’ll be at the next one, doing my middle aged white dude part.
Lauryn11
@Omnes Omnibus: I participated in the Hands Off! protests in April in my red city in my red state. Aside from mingling with like-minded people on the streets, it was encouraging to see the surprisingly large number of motorists giving us honks, waves, and thumbs-up.
Non-activist “normies” showed they approved of what we were doing and/or of our right to do it. That cheered me up more than anything and gave me reason for hope.
cain
@Professor Bigfoot:
Same here. White folks need to get out there and do the needful. I know ICE is out to get me so I’m going to stay the hell away.