Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

The low info voters probably won’t even notice or remember by their next lap around the goldfish bowl.

It may be funny to you motherfucker, but it’s not funny to me.

“The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits.”

No offense, but this thread hasn’t been about you for quite a while.

Pessimism assures that nothing of any importance will change.

It is possible to do the right thing without the promise of a cookie.

Thanks to your bullshit, we are now under siege.

Trump should be leading, not lying.

So it was an October Surprise A Day, like an Advent calendar but for crime.

Every reporter and pundit should have to declare if they ever vacationed with a billionaire.

Good lord, these people are nuts.

if you can’t see it, then you are useless in the fight to stop it.

We do not need to pander to people who do not like what we stand for.

This has so much WTF written all over it that it is hard to comprehend.

Is it negotiation when the other party actually wants to shoot the hostage?

Jack Smith: “Why did you start campaigning in the middle of my investigation?!”

It’s easy to sit in safety and prescribe what other people should be doing.

Damn right I heard that as a threat.

Let’s delete this post and never speak of this again.

They think we are photo bombing their nice little lives.

Museums are not America’s attic for its racist shit.

Is trump is trying to break black America over his knee? signs point to ‘yes’.

Imperialist aggressors must be defeated, or the whole world loses.

I am pretty sure these ‘journalists’ were not always such a bootlicking sycophants.

You are here: Home / Immigration / Saturday Morning Open Thread

Saturday Morning Open Thread

by | 228 Comments

This post is in: ,

Spotted the first monarch #butterfly of the summer in my garden today! Happy solstice! #lepidoptera #solstice

[image or embed]

— Lyd (@naturenerdstudio.bsky.social) June 20, 2025 at 8:05 PM

Priests forcing ICE goons to arrest them feels like when the dam really starts to break.

[image or embed]

— Schnorkles O'Bork (@schnorkles.bsky.social) June 20, 2025 at 8:21 PM

NEW: Pope Leo’s newly appointed Bishop, Michael Pham, outside the court in San Diego:
“We need to speak up for the voiceless in our society – and we will.”
The video then shows masked ICE agents leaving without snatching anyone today.
More of this resistance nationwide! ??
(?? PSL San Diego)

[image or embed]

— News Eye (@newseye.bsky.social) June 20, 2025 at 5:27 PM

Bishop Pham, himself once a refugee from Vietnam, told Trump to treat migrants with more kindness, compassion & dignity.
“They are human beings. We live on a land where the majority of us were immigrants at one time or another.”
Full story ??

[image or embed]

— News Eye (@newseye.bsky.social) June 20, 2025 at 5:39 PM

===

The Dodgers announce they are donating $1 million toward direct financial assistance for families of immigrants impacted by recent events in the region, with more announcements to come.

[image or embed]

— Molly Knight (@mollyknight.bsky.social) June 20, 2025 at 6:47 PM


===

Just my two cents… A million bucks is light for a multibillion dollar organization, but it's a start.
IMO the bigger deal is they're acknowledging ICE is harming their community and they are taking action.
The bar is hell.
The Lakers, Clippers, Kings, Rams, Chargers remain silent.

[image or embed]

— Molly Knight (@mollyknight.bsky.social) June 20, 2025 at 7:44 PM

Reader Interactions

228Comments

  3. 3.

    Matt McIrvin

    @different-church-lady: A lot of people who complained online about politics kind of assumed Francis’s successor would be a Ratzinger-style reactionary out of an automatic cringe reflex, but it sounds as if Francis had taken steps to reduce the chances of that.

  5. 5.

    BritinChicago

    We need all parts of civil society, what’s left of it, to mobilize and stand up against this awful administration. I’m not a theist of any kind whatsoever, but I applaud any church (or, of course, any other religious organization) that will do that. Good for them!

  7. 7.

    Melancholy Jaques

    In about a half hour, I will be leaving on what is planned to be a month long drive around these United States. The last half of the trip is currently TBD, but the first part is watching baseball in various cities between Los Angeles and Cleveland, including seeing my beloved Dodgers in Denver and Kansas City. This trip is to celebrate turning 70, retiring, and not dying from the heart attack I had a year ago. Hoping for good weather. Proud to be a Dodgers fan.

  8. 8.

    O. Felix Culpa

    Good on da Pope and his bishops for bearing witness and foiling the ICE goons.

  10. 10.

    schrodingers_cat

    @Melancholy Jaques: That sounds like a great trip. Drive safe and enjoy yourself, and don’t forget to post pictures

    I have been watching Shogun, 3 episodes in. So far I like it. Indian history is ripe for treatment like this. And there is so much to choose from.

    I am almost done with this page. Just need to add a few details. Can you guess the supplies I used?

  14. 14.

    opiejeanne

    @Melancholy Jaques: I’m glad you’re still with us. I hope you have a great trip. Sounds like a lot of fun; we used to think about doing that and visiting as many baseball parks as possible.

  15. 15.

    MagdaInBlack

    Bishop Pham makes my heart warm. Thank you A.L.

    and also too for the butterflies.

  17. 17.

    lowtechcyclist

    @eclare:

    Seems like they actually read the parts of the Bible printed in red ink.

    QFT.

    (Irrelevant question: do they do that red lettering of Jesus’ words in any Catholic Bibles, like the Douay Version? Or was that just a KJV thing?)

  26. 26.

    schrodingers_cat

    @opiejeanne: I have used 3 types of water based markers (Crayola Supertips, Tombow Dual Brush Pens and Staedtler Fineliners)

    for the top layer. Because the paper couldn’t handle any more water after the base layer.

    Usually they produce a streaky look which I think I have managed to avoid here.

  27. 27.

    What Have the Romans Ever Done for Us?

    Good on the Dodgers and the Catholic Church. At least some institutions are fighting back. Gotta say, I’ve been disappointed by many – watching some elements of Big Law bend the knee along with much of corporate America was dispiriting.

    The worst disappointment so far though, given that I live in the DC area so rub elbows regularly with various people that work for institutions that marinate in American exceptionalism – especially the NatSec and “foreign policy” boyscout Jack Ryan wannabe brigade – sure seems to be crickets from them from the jump and.still now. Bask for decades in your supposed role of defending American democracy, the rule of law and way of life while it’s basically on autopilot, Then when it actually comes under threat where are you? Just trying to blend in to the woodwork when shit gets real. Happy to see any evidence that I’m wrong about that if anyone has any but from here I’m not seeing it – talk about paper tigers and chickenshits.

  28. 28.

    opiejeanne

    @zhena gogolia: We did that in 2019, met up with some jackals at a place I think was not far from the Negro Leagues Baseball Museum. That’s worth a visit too.

  29. 29.

    Snarki, child of Loki

    The only way that Trump will be “more Christ-like” is if someone crucifies him.

    Please proceed.

  31. 31.

    Barney

    From the Times of San Diego article:

    “In fact, at least two white vans were parked on an adjacent street with no license plates but padlocks on side doors.”

    Can’t the local police step up and put a wheel clamp on illegal vehicles like that?

  32. 32.

    lowtechcyclist

    Bishop Pham: “They are human beings.”

    In a land that, according to the MAGAts, is supposedly a Christian nation, that should settle the issue.

    Fuck their tribalism. That has no place in Christianity.

  33. 33.

    Quiltingfool

    @zhena gogolia: My family moved to North KC when I was in 7th grade (my father had family that lived there for years).  I’m fond of the city; don’t want to move back, but when I visit, whoo, things have changed!

    I worked in downtown KC during the early 80’s.  Downtown has really changed since then, and for the better, I think.

    KC barbecue is fine, if you like sauced ribs.  The best bbq I’ve eaten in Missouri was in a tiny restaurant in downtown Hannibal.  Ribs, brisket, turkey were phenomenal.

    When I go to a new bbq joint, I always order ribs.  If the ribs aren’t good, I figure everything else will be sub-standard.  So, no return visit!

    Also, why on earth would anyone think a chain restaurant like Applebees can do good ribs?  Really?  If there isn’t a smoker out back, don’t even put ribs on the menu.

  35. 35.

    Fair Economist

    @schrodingers_cat: Yes, IIRC the Catholic Bible includes some books the Protestant one excludes. They also use different versions of the Ten Commandments (there are actually 3 sets in the Bible, and they’re not the same.)

  39. 39.

    Professor Bigfoot

    @Melancholy Jaques: I wish you joy of your victory, and admonish you to celebrate the absolute fuck out of it! May it be day after day of laughter and fun and the occasional not-heart-healthy meal (‘cause hey, ya gotta have a dog at the ballpark doncha?! :D)

    Then come back and tell us all about it.

  41. 41.

    opiejeanne

    @schrodingers_cat: yes. Most mainline protestant churches used one called Standard Revised when I was growing up, Fundamentalists and so-called Evangelicals tend to use the King James Version, which is admired by some for its more flowery language.

    There have been many attempts to make it more readable, which led to the ridiculous renaming of the apostle Barnabas as Barney.

    Wikepedia has an extensive article on the history of translations of the Bible.

  51. 51.

    Quiltingfool

    @opiejeanne: My father grew up in Chilhowee, a little town in west central Missouri.  He told me that when he was a kid, there were baseball town teams, and they would travel to other small towns for games.  Entertainment in farm county.

    Anyway, one day he remarked that he had seen Shoeless Joe Jackson play at a town team game.  The Negro League players would play against these white town teams.

    I asked dad if the black players were good.  He gave me a “are you kidding” look and said, “Oh, yeah, they were.”

    Those black players were pretty brave and bad ass.  My dad saw them play in Holden Missouri, which was a Sundown town and more hideously racist than the towns around it.  So, pretty bad.

  53. 53.

    MagdaInBlack

    @schrodingers_cat: Sorry I didn’t see this question. I see Opie Jean answered tho.

    Mine is quite an elaborate Bible, which I think was a wedding present from a VERY Catholic Aunt. It has several “dictionaries” after the Bible part, explaining saints names and church holidays and such. Also has a family tree in the front, and lots of artistic illustrations through-out. As a child I was fascinated with the one of Samson knocking down the pillars where he was chained

    eta: and yes, as I recall, Jesus was fair haired and light skinned.

  54. 54.

    opiejeanne

    @schrodingers_cat: The Hebrew Bible? That would be the Old Testament and honestly, I have no idea now. Biblical scholars have been working on translations for longer than I’ve been alive, and a lawsuit a few years ago forced the sharing of the Dead Sea Scrolls with a far larger group of them so there will be some revelations (not the apocalyptic sort) that will arise as they argue over what the words actually mean.

    My personal prejudice is in favor of what I grew up with, The Standard Revised. It’s readable

  55. 55.

    schrodingers_cat

    @opiejeanne: Thanks. I thought King James version was the standard Bible for Protestants. I am not very well versed in the intricacies of the Christian/Biblical doctrine.

    Or the differences in the Old and New testaments.

  57. 57.

    Quiltingfool

    @zhena gogolia: Oh yeah?  We may have crossed paths, lol!  I used to go to the Fed building to file legal briefs for my boss.  I worked at 12th and Main.

    Did you grow up in KC?  If so, do you remember the huge crowns hanging over the streets downtown during Christmas?  I saw them when I was a kid, and always wondered what would happen if one dropped on your car!

    The downtown theaters were awesome, too.  My mom took me to an opera at one of them.  I ignored the opera and spent my time gazing at the lavish interior.  Even the bathrooms were classy!

  58. 58.

    Kristine

    I love the Monarch photos. About half my common milkweed have formed buds, so I’m hoping I see a few around my yard soon.

    Hotter than hell weekend expected here in far NE Illinois. When I went out earlier to fill bird feeders, I felt the barest hint of lake cooling, but I expect that may soon fizzle.

  59. 59.

    comrade scotts agenda of rage

    The Fucking Yankees™ of the West Coast (aka the Dodgers) print money so as mentioned above, $1m is spare change from the sofa for them.

    But…it also shows they know their customer base, ie., the Hispanic community, and also shows that as a behemoth corporation (definitely by baseball standards), they know marketing, good will, etc.  It’s a reason why the franchise is hated by other franchises because we all have a *lot* of envy in terms of how well it’s run in all facets of the game.  If my team were in this situation, they wouldn’t do shit because they can’t get their head out of their asses on a variety of levels much less trying to be the quaint “good corporate citizen”, which most professional sports franchises are not.

    And that assumes their $1m outreach is purely a business decision.  It’s probably not just that which again, good on them.

    Heh heh, I see MJ above is a proud Dodgers fan.  It’s an easy team to like, unless you hate them. :)

    Dodgers games here in Denver are basically Dodgers home games.  You got tickets yet?  Lemme check dates and if you’re interested, I’d love to take in a game.

    I’ve emailed WaterGirl with my contact info as I see their in town Tue-Thu of this week.  I can bike to Coors Field in 10 minutes.

  60. 60.

    MagdaInBlack

    @Kristine: Breezy, hot and starting to get humid here in Arlington Heights. I’m bunkered in for the weekend, I think. I keep a little bird-bath on the balcony, in shade of the plants. I get visitors glad to know its there.

  63. 63.

    zhena gogolia

    @Quiltingfool: We’re about to have 103-degree heat this week in CT, and I was remembering traipsing around downtown KC in high heels in summer 1980 — there was one week where it didn’t get below 110. I’m not that person any more!

  65. 65.

    opiejeanne

    @schrodingers_cat: Protestants are called that because Martin Luther protested a number of bad practices the Catholic church was engaged in, including indulgences.  It all started with Luther. He unleashed the Reformation, which gave us a whole cartload of theologists outside the Catholic church. And the Lutherans splintered into several groups called Synods, and at least one is not at all liberal.

  67. 67.

    Quiltingfool

    @schrodingers_cat: Check out the Apocrypha.  It contains chapters, well, stories, that didn’t get put in the Bible.   I’m not Catholic, but I picked up a copy, and boy howdy, these stories were not taught in a Baptist Sunday school!  Are they true?  Well, who knows?

    From the bits of Biblical history I’ve read – and Reverend Rick, feel free to correct me – there was a meeting called the Council of Niceme, wherein a gaggle of scholars picked through all the written accounts of Jesus’ birth, life, ministry and death/resurrection and chose the best (or more plausible, maybe) accounts to be included in the New Testament.  I read that the scholars specifically chose writings which emphasized Jesus’ divinity (Son of God) rather than ones that depicted Jesus as just a charismatic rabbi/preacher.

  72. 72.

    Quiltingfool

    @zhena gogolia: Midland Theater!  That’s the one!  It’s a beauty!  And to think they showed regular movies there, in such lavish surroundings!

    No wonder people wore nice clothes when they went to the movies then!

  76. 76.

    MrPug

    My teams are the various Bay Area teams.  I haven’t heard of them doing anything like this but hopefully they will (if they haven’t already).

  79. 79.

    Quiltingfool

    @schrodingers_cat: Oh, my, I can answer to the multitude of different Baptist churches.  Let’s see, there are:  Northern Baptists, Southern Baptist (split over slavery), Bible Baptist, Primitive Baptist, umm, probably more but my brain isn’t with it!

    I asked my dad why there were so many different Baptist churches.  He said that when the congregation started in-fighting, they would split and one of the groups would form their “own” Baptist church.

    I giggle when I think about where the Baptists started out.  From what I’ve read, the founder of the Baptist church in America was kicked out of New England (Congregationalists had the lock on that part of the country) so the Baptists had to set up shop in Rhode Island, you know, where pirates and other such folk flourished!  Talk about a fertile mission field!

  80. 80.

    Fair Economist

    @schrodingers_cat: I think the Catholic Bible is closer to the Hebrew scriptures. Hanukkah is based on events in the Books of Maccabees, which are ones in the Catholic but not Protestant Bible. But the Jewish “Bible” was not formally selected like the Christian one and there were various versions in the Roman Empire, and Luther preferred one that excluded Maccabees (amongst other things).

  81. 81.

    Jackie

    @Quiltingfool: Have you ever seen the movie The Bingo Long Traveling All-Stars & Motor Kings? Loosely based about Satchel Paige playing in the Negro League. Richard Pryor, Billie Dee Williams and James Earl Jones starred in it. I’ve lost count of how many times I’ve watched it.

  82. 82.

    Quiltingfool

    @zhena gogolia: Oh, Lord, pantyhose and humidity!  Abomination!

    I remember that summer.  A news channel put a raw beef roast in a car, and several hours later showed that it was pretty well cooked.  They did say “don’t try this at home!”

  85. 85.

    Quiltingfool

    @Jackie: No, have not seen the movie, but in thinking about the Negro League players my dad saw as a kid, he did see Satchel Paige play, too.

    I think my dad watching black baseball players when he was a kid kept him from being as horribly racist as his dad was.  Or may not have had anything to do with it.  My dad believed in fairness and looking at character not skin color.   I mean, my grandfather was a big supporter of George Wallace, so you know how he felt about black people.

  86. 86.

    zhena gogolia

    @schrodingers_cat: It’s an old, old expression — “More X than Carter has little liver pills.”
    Wikipedia:

    Carter’s Little Liver Pills (Carter’s Little Pills after 1959) were formulated as a patent medicine by Samuel J. Carter of Erie, Pennsylvania, in 1868.

  89. 89.

    Quiltingfool

    @zhena gogolia: I like the saying, “He’s got more nerve than Del Monte has hamburger dills.”  (From the novel Baja Oklahoma).

    Boy, these conversations have been fun, but I have got to sign off and go finish quilting a customer quilt.  It’s huge (116”x116”).  And fussy.  Fingers crossed I’ll finish it today, but if I keep hanging around here that won’t happen!

  91. 91.

    Another Scott

    @Quiltingfool: I knew someone online who would occasionally talk about her church.

    Q – What denomination?

    A – Christian.

    Q – Yes, but what denomination??

    it took a few cycles back and forth before we figured out she was a Christian Church – Disciples of Christ member.

    (It takes a pretty big self-regard to try to exclusively grab that name for themselves!)

    Best wishes,
    Scott.

  92. 92.

    Doug R

    @Matt McIrvin:

     

    A lot of people who complained online about politics kind of assumed Francis’s successor would be a Ratzinger-style reactionary out of an automatic cringe reflex, but it sounds as if Francis had taken steps to reduce the chances of that.

    Choosing a lot of the new bishops AND ruling that the conclave had to all be less than 80 years old helped a lot.

  93. 93.

    Jackie

    @Quiltingfool: If you’re interested in watching it, it’s available on Prime Video. It’s a great movie. Mostly comedy, although there is some white on Black violence.

  94. 94.

    Doug R

    @What Have the Romans Ever Done for Us?:

     

    various people that work for institutions that marinate in American exceptionalism – especially the NatSec and “foreign policy” boyscout Jack Ryan wannabe brigade – sure seems to be crickets from them from the jump and.still now.

    Maybe they’re keeping their powder dry? Hopefully they found a Five Eyes contact they could trust with copies and used their burn bags before trump came in.

  96. 96.

    JaySinWa

    @Another Scott:

    (It takes a pretty big self-regard to try to exclusively grab that name for themselves!)

     

    In the grand tradition of the Catholic (universal) church

    The Catholic Church teaches that it is the one, holy, catholic and apostolic church founded by Jesus Christ in his Great Commission,

    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church

    Or as my wife remembers from Catholic school, “the one true church”

  97. 97.

    Matt McIrvin

    @Quiltingfool: Unlike many denominations, the Baptists never had a hierarchy and insisted on churches being formally independent. So that probably made it easier to split.

  98. 98.

    trollhattan

    Who could have ever guessed Tulsi would be pliable on going to war–with Iran or whoever else is handy?

    Tulsi Gabbard says Iran could produce nuclear weapons “within weeks”, months after she testified before Congress that the country was not building them.

    The US Director of National Intelligence said her March testimony – in which she said Iran had a stock of materials but was not building these weapons – had been taken out of context by “dishonest media”.

    Her change of position came after Donald Trump said she was “wrong” and that intelligence showed Iran had a “tremendous amount of material” and could have a nuclear weapon “within months”.

    Iran has always said that its nuclear programme is entirely peaceful and that it has never sought to develop a nuclear weapon.

    It’s a mystery, I tell ya.

  99. 99.

    TONYG

    Well, hopefully.  But — white evangelicals are big-time Trump supporters, and evangelicals have traditionally hated Catholics.  So, we’ll see.

  102. 102.

    TONYG

    @JaySinWa: The wacky think about Christianity (and really about all religious institutions) is that there are hundreds of denominations, and every single one knows that they are right and that everyone else is wrong.

  103. 103.

    Baud

    @trollhattan:

    I’m glad to see they cut out the Judith Miller style middle man.

    And you all thought DOGE didn’t make the government more efficient.

  105. 105.

    Matt McIrvin

    @opiejeanne: And then there’s the slightly different origin of the Anglican/Episcopal branch which split off from Rome under Henry VIII and kind of joined Protestantism in progress, while retaining a bit more Catholic-esque flavor than the other Protestant churches.

  108. 108.

    Chacal Charles Calthrop

    @schrodingers_cat: Adam Smith’s “Wealth of Nations”  is the Protestant bible.  Just kidding….

    As for the denominations, Voltaire said that France was the land of one faith and thousand sauces, while England was the land of one sauce and a thousand faiths.

  109. 109.

    JaySinWa

    @TONYG: there are hundreds of denominations, and every single one knows that they are right and that everyone else is wrong.

     

    “All the world is queer save thee and me, and even thou art a little queer.”

    Like Soylent Green, churches are made of people.

    ETA They even have “The blood and the body of Christ” thing down.

  110. 110.

    Matt McIrvin

    @Baud: They had the printing press, pamphlets and broadsides, which were sort of the social media of the time. Protestantism was to some extent a mass social fracturing caused by the introduction of movable type.

    (It also meant that many more people could get their hands on a Bible, hence, sola scriptura ideas.)

  111. 111.

    trollhattan

    If the dream of Donny’s widowmaker cardiac event comes true, then we get this.

    “I was hoping Jose Padilla would be here to ask a question.”

    — Vice President J.D. Vance, quoted by The Hill, referring to Sen. Alex Padilla (R-CA) as “Jose.”

  112. 112.

    Harrison Wesley

    Powerhouse Church of the Presumptuous Assumption? Circular Drive-in Church of the Conspicuous Consumption? TY,Firesign Theater.

  113. 113.

    trollhattan

    The Revenge Tour™ continues apace.

    Hundreds of journalists for Voice of America (VOA) – most of its remaining staff – have been fired by President Donald Trump’s administration, effectively shutting down the US-funded news outlet.
    The administration said the layoffs were because the agency was “riddled with dysfunction, bias and waste”.
    Steve Herman, VOA’s chief national correspondent, called the dismantling of the outlet, which was set up during World War Two to counter Nazi propaganda, a “historic act of self-sabotage”.
    Among those axed were Persian-language reporters who had been on administrative leave, but were called back to work last week after Israel attacked Iran.

    According to the Associated Press news agency, the Persian reporters had left the office on Friday for a cigarette break, and were not allowed to re-enter the building after the termination notices went out.
    “Today, we took decisive action to effectuate President Trump’s agenda to shrink the out-of-control federal bureaucracy,” Kari Lake, whom the president appointed to run VOA, said in a statement on Friday announcing the layoffs of 639 employees.
    In total, more than 85% of the agency’s employees – about 1,400 staff – have lost their jobs since March.
    She noted that 50 employees would remain employed across VOA, the Office of Cuba Broadcasting, and VOA’s parent company, the US Agency for Global Media (USAGM).

    They quite literally don’t understand how any of this works. So let’s break it anyway!

  114. 114.

    Another Scott

    Meanwhile, … Reuters, via Yahoo:

    Sat, June 21, 2025 at 11:14 AM EDT

    (Reuters) -Yemen’s Houthis will target U.S. ships in the Red Sea if Washington becomes involved in Israeli attacks on Iran, the group’s military spokesperson said on Saturday.

    In May, the U.S. and the Houthis agreed to a ceasefire under which neither side would target the other.

    Agreements, shmagreements.

    :-/

    Best wishes,
    Scott.

  115. 115.

    Matt McIrvin

    @trollhattan: A President J. D. Vance may be worse than President Trump; however, he wouldn’t have the level of automatic TV-star adoration from 40-something percent of the population. In that sense, he’d be the George HW Bush or the Martin van Buren, the successor who hasn’t got the aura.

  116. 116.

    Tom Levenson

    @schrodingers_cat: Mo, our new kitten, is great, alternating between sweetie and demon as binary alternatives. (In other words, a kitten.)

    Of course re non-fiction and conversation. I can be contacted via levenson-at-mit-dot-edu.

    Best, T

  118. 118.

    Matt McIrvin

    @schrodingers_cat: There are a lot of Bibles out there.
    The Catholic Church accepts several books as canonical that most Protestant denominations class with the “Apocrypha”. And everyone’s got their own favored translation. I suppose the Catholics ultimately favor the Latin Vulgate as their most official version.

    edit: I guess they’ve got a 1970s-80s Nova Vulgata which is the current RCC canon…

  119. 119.

    trollhattan

    @Matt McIrvin:

    Likely true. If Vance has a top sin it’s being boring as fuck. See also, Mike Pence (who somehow has more going for him than JD).

    I do wonder if he’d go full Elon and stock the WH with brood mares for an official Presidential Pronatal Baby-Makin’ Compound, which could also serve in lieu of a Vance Presidential Library.

  120. 120.

    lowtechcyclist

    @Professor Bigfoot:

    Since every Christian sect is heretical to at least one other Christian sect, I consider them ALL heretics. 😉

    It does simplify things greatly, doesn’t it?

    And it keeps one from getting all sects-obsessed.

  121. 121.

    Matt McIrvin

    @trollhattan: Vance became famous as a friendly MAGA Whisperer to the liberals before becoming a bog-standard MAGA hack. But once he made that jump there wasn’t really anything to distinguish him from the average smug Fox News chud.

  122. 122.

    JaySinWa

    @Chacal Charles Calthrop:

    Adam Smith’s “Wealth of Nations” is the Protestant bible. Just kidding…

    Lutherans adopted the “Earth and all stars” hymn in 1964 including this excerpt:

    Engines and steel,
    loud pounding hammers,
    sing to the Lord a new song!
    Limestone and beams,
    loud building workers,
    sing to the Lord a new song!

    He has done marvelous things.
    I, too, will praise him
    with a new song!

    Classrooms and labs,
    loud boiling test tubes,
    sing to the Lord a new song!
    Athlete and band,
    loud cheering people,
    sing to the Lord a new song!

  123. 123.

    chemiclord

    @schrodingers_cat: Have you got about three semesters to have a discussion about the various translations of the bible, and how and why they were commissioned for the very specific doctrines that the various denominations demanded?

  124. 124.

    lowtechcyclist

    @Harrison Wesley: ​

    Powerhouse Church of the Presumptuous Assumption?

    Of the Blinding Light.

    O blinding light, o light that blinds, I cannot see, look out for me.
    :crash:

  127. 127.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @schrodingers_cat: Serious answer:  Because most Protestants believe that salvation is individual and between the person and God.  They do not accept that priests/ministers/pastors are intermediaries in the process.  The clergy is there to teach and lead but cannot forgive sins or grant salvation.  BTW the individual nature of salvation is why Protestants were so enthusiastic about translating the Bible.  And why the the Puritans, in particular, were as in favor of universal education.

    n.b. This is grossly simplifying the whole thing.

  128. 128.

    sab

    @schrodingers_cat: There are many versions. My Episcopalian parish priest warns us to be careful when we buy new bibles. Some of the translations from the original Hebrew and Greek are very iffy, with an agenda.

  133. 133.

    Matt McIrvin

    @schrodingers_cat: Insistence on the KJV as the only true version of the Bible (sometimes as even more correct than the original Hebrew and Greek texts!) is a very Evangelical/Fundamentalist thing. The various mainstream Protestant churches have different favored Bibles, and sometimes there’s no official designation being passed down from a church authority.

  137. 137.

    trollhattan

    Thanks, Donny!

    Email from our brick and mortar area camera shop:
    Price Increases will begin on Monday June 23rd!
    Don’t wait to purchase that new gear that you have been waiting for!

  138. 138.

    trollhattan

    @zhena gogolia: ​
     
    Especially the Psalms and Limericks.
    “There dwelleth a man in Nantucket.”

    Guessing whatever version you had to memorize in Sunday school and confirmation classes is the one you’ll tote the rest of your days. Lutherans in my case.

  139. 139.

    RevRick

    @schrodingers_cat: There are a multiplicity of translations. They fall broadly into two categories. One is those that attempt at a literal translation of the original Hebrew and Greek. The other offers paraphrases.

  140. 140.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @zhena gogolia: Revised Standard is probably the most common and directly readable version for Protestants, but the KJV is the most fun.  If you find reading 17th Century English fun.  Fit it in with Donne’s and Milton’s prose.*

    *There is a reason we read the KJV Genesis in Freshman Studies and not some other translation.

  142. 142.

    Jackie

    @Old Dan and Little Ann:

    I loved that movie.  It was on HBO in the early 80’s all time them.

    That’s when I saw it the first half dozen times LOL Then when my son became a baseball addict, playing LL, watching baseball on TV, baseball movies, we rented the video. I prewarned him of the violence and he discovered Satchel Paige and learned about the Negro League, and that many great MLB players got their start in the NL. We both have the movie on DVD and watch it at least once a year during spring training. He played baseball all through school and pitched his high school team to their first state championship. He and I are still baseball fanatics.

  144. 144.

    Suzanne

    @Professor Bigfoot:

    Since every Christian sect is heretical to at least one other Christian sect, I consider them ALL heretics. 

    I have noted for years….. there’s a whole lot of Christians who love nothing more than to tell other Christians that they’re going to Hell.

  145. 145.

    Eyeroller

    @chemiclord: Rev Rick hasn’t show up yet to educate us, so I’ll note firstly that the Hebrew bible would be Old Testament only and we ought to be using whatever translation Tom Levenson pointed to, but I’m sure every recent Christian translation has tried to use modern scholarship to be as accurate as possible.

    The New Testament was written in Koine Greek, very likely from older Aramaic sources that have been lost.  What’s interesting is that in the time and place that the Gospels were being written, most Jews could not read Hebrew (and almost none could really speak it).  The language was maintained by only a few scholars.  The language of the Gospel writers was Greek and they read the Old Testament in a Greek translation called the Septuagint.  This has resulting in some “interesting” fights over the translation of the world “alma” in Isaiah 7:14 “and a <alma> shall conceive and give birth.”  Most of the time the Hebrew word just meant “young woman” which is hardly miraculous, but it was translated in the Septuagint as “parthenos” which has a much stronger connotation of virginity.

    And the King James Version, in addition to be a pretty bad translation, is written in Early Modern English and is barely understandable, and often misunderstood, by speakers of Modern English.

    Beyond that, the Vulgate was translated from original texts into Latin and from that into various vernacular versions. But I know much less about that history.

  146. 146.

    Spanky

    Not a Dodgers’ fan, and not a fan of corporate sports, but I think a $million is a good start. It could be seen as a cheap offering, or it could be seen as the first play in what looks to be a long haul. I’m going to assume the Dodgers are playing the long game until evidence convinces me otherwise.

  147. 147.

    p.a.

    IIRC the KJV was commissioned by… wait for it… King James 1in 1604, published in 1611.  He hoped for a translation slanted in support of god/king authority over underlings (Parliament in the English context), and achieved it to a point, as any group endeavour 😉 will “wander” from its authorized aims because…  Therefore you can see the pull of the KJV for conservatives as a counterweight to Jesus’ (to me) obvious radicalism.

    God’s Secretaries: The Making of the King James Bible by Adam Nicholson is the general history I’ve read.  About 20 yrs old.  Don’t know what academics think of his research and conclusions.

  148. 148.

    Eyeroller

    @schrodingers_cat: To some extent that’s an artifact of it being in Early Modern English, and a lot of poetry up until pretty recently tried to emulate EME, intentionally using archaisms.  Edit: Even Shakespeare was not considered particularly poetic in his day (though he did write with a definite poetic pattern) and most of the vulgarities and innuendos have been lost, as well as some of the rhymes even (“blood” and “good” used to rhyme, for instance).

  149. 149.

    Suzanne

    @Matt McIrvin:

    Insistence on the KJV as the only true version of the Bible (sometimes as even more correct than the original Hebrew and Greek texts!) is a very Evangelical/Fundamentalist thing. 

    Fun fact: The LDS Church (Mormons) also exclusively uses the KJV. When Joseph Smith wrote — my bad, put on magic glasses and translated — the Book of Mormon, he tried to imitate the language style of the KJV. Which is why it reads, “And it came to pass….” so much.

  150. 150.

    Kayla Rudbek

    @schrodingers_cat: basically, every single time the Protestants get into an argument about theology, liturgy, music, etc, they split up and form yet another denomination. Catholics getting into arguments like that generally found new religious orders instead (which is why only God knows how many different orders of nuns there are)

  151. 151.

    Harrison Wesley

    New Oxford Annotated Bible with Apocrypha is my favorite, but the one I currently have is NET (New English Translation). It’s supposedly favored by atheists but I have no idea why.

  154. 154.

    Eyeroller

    @Suzanne: Mark Twain on the Book of Mormon:

    Whenever he found his speech growing too modern–which was about every sentence or two–he ladled in a few such Scriptural phrases as “exceeding sore,” “and it came to pass,” etc., and made things satisfactory again. “And it came to pass” was his pet. If he had left that out, his Bible would have been only a pamphlet.

    –Roughing It

  155. 155.

    trollhattan

    @Baud: How about assign Chat GTP?

    Write me a book where a space god invents the universe, solar system, earth, critters, a dude, a dudette made of extra dude parts, good and bad, promised lands and peoples, sex and no sex, sends kid to earth, kills him then gives him CPR and brings him home, leaves an I’ll be back note. Go!

  158. 158.

    Matt McIrvin

    @trollhattan: Since it’s surely read and digested every version of the Bible as well as a variety of other scriptures and fantasy/SF stories, you’d probably just get a purée of all that.

  159. 159.

    NotMax

    @

    Dunno about that. Have made some delectable fall off the bone ribs in the Instant Pot. Finishing them up under the broiler de rigueur.

  160. 160.

    Kayla Rudbek

    @opiejeanne:

     

    @schrodingers_cat: the Hussites in the Holy Roman Empire (modern Czechia, Slovakia, etc) were around before Martin Luther, and Dr. Eleanor Janega will go on at great lengths about them going-medieval.com/2017/11/02/a-short-history-of-jan-hus-the-protestant-leader-you-never-heard-of-or…

    but Martin Luther gets the credit because he’s the one who made Western Europe split between Catholic and Protestant (along with Henry VIII wanting to put Catherine of Aragon aside and marry Anne Boleyn)

  161. 161.

    NotMax

    Oh rats. Fix.

    @Quiltingfool

    Dunno about that. Have made some delectable fall off the bone ribs in the Instant Pot. Finishing them up under the broiler de rigueur.

  162. 162.

    Matt McIrvin

    @Suzanne: Well, it saves Marriott a lot of effort–they can just get the KJV for every hotel room from the Gideons and add their supplement.

  163. 163.

    Matt McIrvin

    @Kayla Rudbek: And before all that you had the East/West schism of 1054, but the Eastern Orthodox churches aren’t really like the Protestants at all.

  164. 164.

    Suzanne

    @Eyeroller: Don’t forget about “white and delightsome“!

    The funniest line from The Book of Mormon (the musical):

    I believe that Satan has a hold of you
    I believe that the Lord God has sent me here
    And I believe that in 1978 God changed his mind about black people!

  165. 165.

    Dave

    @trollhattan: Even worse he gives off smarmy toady energy.

    The kid that talks shit from behind the bully.

    He does not have whatever bullshit Trump substitutes for charisma.

  166. 166.

    Harrison Wesley

    @Eyeroller: I remember reading about one particular KJV mistranslation many years ago. “Camel passing through the eye of a needle”is gibberish and should have been recognized as such. The actual word was “rope”which makes sense. Don’t know for sure if this story is true.

  167. 167.

    Geminid

    @Melancholy Jaques: I’m late on this, but I wish you a safe and happy journey.

    I envy you; I love a road trip, but for various reasons I haven’t been out of Virginia since early 2020.

  168. 168.

    Another Scott

    @p.a.: A book I enjoyed long ago was “Who Wrote the Bible?”

    (It probably wasn’t Moses.  ;-)

    It runs through why there are two sometimes contradictory stories of Noah and the flood in Genesis, etc. I think it talks about why there are multiple versions of the 10 Commandments in there as well.

    Similarly, elsewhere, there were battles over the decades and centuries about which books to leave out. Book of Enoch:

    “The utterances of God are holy, but your expositions are mere contrivances, as is plain from what has been explained by you; nay, even blasphemies, for you assert that angels sinned and revolted from God.”

    ;-)

    Best wishes,
    Scott.

  169. 169.

    Suzanne

    @Matt McIrvin:

    but the Eastern Orthodox churches aren’t really like the Protestants at all.

    They’re starting to attract American converts who find the Catholics too liberal and not Dungeons-and-Dragons-y enough. You know, when there just isn’t enough arcana to nerd out over.

  170. 170.

    Baud

    @trollhattan:

    In the beginning, the universe was created.

    This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move.

     

    But before even that — long before Earth, the Firmament, or anyone named Adam had been misinformed about fruit — there was an intergalactic planning council. They were in charge of constructing galaxies, suns, sentient life forms, and occasionally approving plans for improbability-based fish.

     

    One such approved plan involved a small, mostly harmless planet orbiting an unregarded yellow sun in the unfashionable end of the Western Spiral Arm of the Galaxy. It was filed under project ID #42-EARTH-0001 and titled “Genesis (Experimental Life Habitation and Storytelling Module)”.

     

    Unfortunately, no one read the fine print. Least of all the inhabitants.

  174. 174.

    Matt McIrvin

    @zhena gogolia: The few Bible verses I at all remember, it’s usually the KJV’s 1600s-era wording that’s stuck in my head.

    I think the first Bible I owned (given to me by my grandmother with some concern for my soul) was a “Good News Bible: Today’s English Version” which was the American Bible Society’s 1966 attempt to get down with the youths. The phrasing is intentionally simple and almost childlike, with these abstractly cartoonish line-drawing illustrations.

    I remember reading some way into it and it not really having the effect on me that Grandma wanted, because I had Questions. All the questions you can probably imagine.

    In a college “great books” class I used the New English Bible, an Oxford/Cambridge production from around the same time, actually written on similar “dynamic equivalence” principles but maybe with a higher level of scholarship.

  175. 175.

    Kayla Rudbek

    @Omnes Omnibus: nope, Aragon the kingdom in what’s now Spain (Ferdinand and Isabella who paid for Columbus’ expedition in 1492 and who drove the Moors out of Spain were Catherine’s parents. Ferdinand was king of Aragon and Isabella was queen of Castile, their children were variously considered “of Castile” or “of Aragon”, I’d need further research to explain why)

  176. 176.

    Matt McIrvin

    @Harrison Wesley: Cyril of Alexandria claimed that in the 5th century, but the argument seems to be disputed. Either one is a vivid picture of impossibility.

    There’s a story beloved of evangelicals that the aphorism refers to a literal gate of Jerusalem called “the Eye of the Needle”–a camel could get through, but only if it dropped its bags. But this seems to have been made up out of whole cloth sometime in the Middle Ages; there is no good evidence for such a gate.

  178. 178.

    Eric S.

    Sounds like this Cardinals fan will be buying a Dodgers cap. Yeah, $1m is not a big lift for them but the symbolism is worth so much more.

  181. 181.

    Eyeroller

    @Another Scott: There are at least two distinct lines in Genesis. Probably beyond that as well, but I only know a little bit of the scholarship around Genesis in particular.  It is thought that what we know as the Old Testament was produced as a way of re-unifying two tribes, the Israelites and the Judeans.  Maybe more as well, I am only aware of two.  There is one “voice” known to scholars as the Editor who assembled these different versions.

    It’s particularly noticeable in the Flood story.  We learn about the “two of every kind” but there’s also “seven of every kind.”  The Editor seems to have just shrugged and figured “I’ll just more or less alternate these details and it’ll work out.”

    Also Jewish scholars have noted that there are actually 13 commandments in the Jewish version of Exodus 20:2-14 but they are allocated to 10 in different ways–and there are 17 sentences in versions translated by Christians.  I don’t know why it’s important to bundle them into 10 in all cases.  But this is where all the disagreements originate.

  183. 183.

    BC in Illinois

    Psalm 23, in the Lolcat Bible translation:

    1 Ceiling Cat iz mai sheprd. He givz me evrithin I need.

    2 He letz me sleeps in teh sunni spot an haz liek nice waterz r ovar thar.

    3 He makez mai soul happi an maeks sure I go teh riet wai for him. Liek thru teh cat flap insted of out teh opin windo LOL.

    4 I iz in teh valli of dogz, fearin no pooch, bcz Ceiling Cat iz besied me rubbin’ mah ears, an it maek me so kumfy.

    5 He letz me sit at the taebl evn when peepl who duzint liek me iz watchn. He givz me a flea baff an so much gooshy fud it runz out of mai bowl LOL.

    6 Niec things an luck wil chase me evrydai an I wil liv in teh Ceiling Cats houz forevr.

  185. 185.

    Ruckus

    @Melancholy Jaques:

    I’m a bit older than you and retired almost 3 years ago after working for 60 years. I get the glee at retiring.

    And congrats on 7 decades! Far better to be old than not get there.

  189. 189.

    Anyway

    @Melancholy Jaques: Have a great trip and enjoy your retirement!

    I took a short vacation recently— road trip to Cape Cod. Had a great time. Weather was cool and springy which meant no crowds and easy traffic. Loved Martha’s Vineyard, PTown, all the little beaches on the way there. MV has free buses courtesy of the Mass legislature, great way to get around the island. Sampled a lot of NE seafood — all good.

  190. 190.

    trollhattan

    Nothing to see here, nosir. Please to be proceeding with your normal weekend plans.

    “Multiple U.S. Air Force B-2 bombers appeared to be airborne and heading west from the United States across the Pacific, and President Trump is scheduled to return to the White House late on Saturday afternoon from New Jersey as he deliberates about whether to join Israel’s efforts to destroy Iran’s nuclear sites,” the New York Times reports.

    “Air traffic control communications indicated that several B-2 aircraft — the planes that could be equipped to carry the 30,000-pound bunker-buster bombs that Mr. Trump is considering deploying against Iran’s underground nuclear facilities in Fordo — had taken off from Whiteman Air Force Base in Missouri.”

  191. 191.

    WTFGhost

    @Nukular Biskits: Which hair bugs you so much, getting cut? You could have the barber cut that hair first… never mind.

    (What I always hate about a haircut is it takes 2-3 days (or so it seems) for all the teeny tiny bits of hair to stop falling in my collar. Man, was I happy when I stopped wearing collared shirts, and… well, getting my hair cut.)

    @Melancholy Jaques: I’m glad you didn’t die too! Good to celebrate life a bit.

    @Baud: *CRUD*. I knew I had that joke wrong. All this time, I’ve been asking if the pope relieves himself in the woods!

    @schrodingers_cat: Yes, the Catholic bible includes some books not included in the Protestant/KJV.

  192. 192.

    Another Scott

    Meanwhile, one for susanne… NotebookCheck.net:

    According to the 2024 report from the American Society of Civil Engineers (ASCE), of the 623,218 bridges in the United States, 49.1% (~305,005) are in fair condition and 6.8% (~42,379) are in poor condition. The report estimates that repairing these bridges would cost approximately $191 billion.

    This new development could address one of the biggest headaches in infrastructure maintenance — logistics. Currently, repairing a corroded bridge section often involves cordoning off the area, a process that is expensive and a nightmare for commuters.

    This achievement came in a study of the feasibility of 3D printing for highway infrastructure construction and maintenance, part of a MassDOT research program. The researchers demonstrated the first use of cold spray 3D printing to repair a steel bridge in Great Barrington, Massachusetts, the achievement was posted on MIT News on June 20, 2025.

    Here is a simplified description of the process:

    * Accelerating fine particles of steel powder using heated compressed gas
    * Spraying them onto the damaged area
    * Repeating the process in layers to rebuild lost material and restore structural strength

    The researchers are optimistic about the technique’s potential. The team plans to conduct further analysis on the repaired section after the Great Barrington bridge is demolished as part of a planned replacement. The data gathered will provide crucial insights into the long-term durability and performance of the cold spray repairs. If the results are as positive as expected, this method could become a standard tool for civil engineers, ensuring bridges remain safe and functional for decades to come.

    It will be very interesting to see how the repair holds up. It’s good that they plan to study it in detail when they take the bridge down.

    Best wishes,
    Scott.

  193. 193.

    Geminid

    @trollhattan: Those B-2s were accompanied by 6 to 8 tanker planes. The various OSINT flight trackers are having a field day with this buildup. One noted that the B-2s refueled soon after takeoff, a sign that they are fully loaded.

    Another said they appear to be headed to Guam, which is 5,000 miles miles away from Iran. Diego Garcia, in the Indian ocean, is only 2,000 miles from Iran but hey, why fly past Iran to Diego Garcia if you have a delivery to make?

    If you mess with Twitter, OSINTDefender seems to be a good site to follow. They’re an aggregator with no special expertise, but a lot of other serious reporters follow them because they are attentive and keep up to date.

  195. 195.

    pluky

    @Matt McIrvin: The priest and deacon that were tag teaming my confirmation classes had a running argument going as to whether the Anglican Communion was truly reformed, or more schismatic. The answer is  really both, as reflected in the variance between High Church and Low Church practice. To this day though, Rome accepts as valid Anglican priestly ordination and episcopal consecration in that the Apostolic Succession remains unbroken.

  197. 197.

    Jackie

    @Geminid:

    @trollhattan: Those B-2s were accompanied by 6 to 8 tanker planes. The various OSINT flight trackers are having a field day with this buildup. One noted that the B-2s refueled soon after takeoff, a sign that they are fully loaded.

    I’ve been wondering if FFOTUS’s decision in “two weeks” is a decoy. He knows that “we” know when he gives a two weeks deadline, he’s usually bluffing, and so tend to dismiss whatever.

  198. 198.

    Origuy

    @Another Scott:

    it took a few cycles back and forth before we figured out she was a Christian Church – Disciples of Christ member.

    (It takes a pretty big self-regard to try to exclusively grab that name for themselves!)

     

    I grew up in the Disciples. It grew out of the Second Great Awakening of the early 19th century. A lot of churches that call themselves “Christian Church” started then. Most remain nondenominational, but the Disciples organized, although congregations remain central. There was an idea for more Protestant churches to call themselves “Christian Church (denomination)”, but that doesn’t seem to have taken off.
    YouTube channel Useful Charts has a series on the splintering of Christianity. It took 8 videos to cover it.

  199. 199.

    WTFGhost

    @TONYG: Now, that’s not true. Some churches do urge people to do right, and not to worry too much about the sinfulness of others. Churches like that don’t tend to make big headlines, but, they they can help people and even transform lives.

    That said, I do agree, if there were a humble sect of Christianity, there would be people who would loudly and arrogantly proclaim themselves the most humbly humble that’s ever hummed a bull (presumably because they didn’t know the words to the bull – perhaps the papal bull?). They are so humble, other Christians should prostrate themselves, begging for wisdom, they would say, and suggest those other Christians who aren’t so humble might well be bound for hell.

    So… fair cop, but, it’s a problem of people as much as the teachings.

  200. 200.

    Captain C

    @Baud: The sectarian fighting that will arise from an attempt to do that will make the 30 Years’ War look like a nursery school nap time.

  201. 201.

    WTFGhost

    @Harrison Wesley: I’ve seen arguments, and I don’t know how well educated they were, but, they said that Jesus was willing to throw in something like “as impossible as a camel going through the eye of a needle,” to keep his sermon interesting, with the note that “this is impossible for man, but with God, all things are possible.” Still: “rope” makes sense too; though some of the people I’ve seen arguing would say “and if he could make a pun on rope, and camel, oh, heck yeah, he’d have done it!”

    @Suzanne: To be brutally fair to the Church of JCotLDS, the official word is “the curse of Cain wore off by 1978.” God had cursed Cain for umpty generations, but the LDS-pope-equivalent said “umpty generations have passed.”

    Note that the idea that God turned Cain Black seems to be a uniquely American idea, though, it might be that other countries matured earlier, and have forgotten their religious excuses for keeping people in perpetual human bondage. That is why Republicans are so hepped up on Trump (and other goofballs). Without the specific, bigoted, form of Christianity being a large plurality, they won’t have excuses to bash on Black people. People will say things like “God demands justice for all of his children, including Black people!” and Vance will scream about his love stink, or odo amoris, and say that’s not right and can’t be fair, but, if we’re at all lucky, he’ll do it from a jail cell, as part of a conspiracy to deprive people of their civil rights en masse.

  203. 203.

    Haydnseek

    Hey, wait a minute! Chilhowee? My whole family is from there. My mom was born on a farm and my dad right in town. He told me all about town teams, he used to play on one, and my granddad on moms side used to umpire them. I could go on, I’m pretty sure the thread will go away before you read this, but I’m just happy to see it being mentioned.

  205. 205.

    lowtechcyclist

    @Omnes Omnibus: ​
     

    Revised Standard is probably the most common and directly readable version for Protestants

    I remember when the RSV was more or less the standard Protestant translation. Now it’s something you get vaccinated to protect you from it. ;-)

    I got hooked on the New English Bible translation not too long after I found the Lord, so it’s been my go-to translation for the past fiftysome years. Can’t even tell you why, it just clicks with my brain. Though Paul being translated as saying, “You stupid Galatians!” is worth it all by itself.

  206. 206.

    Suzanne

    @Another Scott: That is cool as hell. Now that 8 live in the city with the most bridges in the world (four more than Venice!), I really enjoy getting up close to them, running over them….. and I look a lot at all that rust with some degree of trepidation. LOL.

  208. 208.

    Captain C

    @Matt McIrvin: Patrick Wyman’s book The Verge has some interesting bits on how the printing press was essential for the start and spread of the Reformation.  Also a good chapter on Martin Luther and how his movement grew way beyond him fairly quickly.

  209. 209.

    Gloria DryGarden

    @Quiltingfool: I think the council of nicene selected the most politically useful. The aim may have been to control people and shape their spiritual beliefs a certain way, for easier herding.

    the stuff that didn’t make it in there is pretty fascinating. The apocrypha is easy to find, I have a Bible that includes it. But there are way more writings that got excluded. I feel ripped off, that I didn’t grow up with the wider range of stories. The gospel of thomas, the gospel of Mary. Imagine, including a female pov.

  210. 210.

    Gloria DryGarden

    @Another Scott: this sounds v interesting. I’ll look for some excerpts,  summaries, or an e book I can skim. Way cool. As always, thanks for another valuable recommendation.

  212. 212.

    Captain C

    @Jackie: When I was at the Baseball Hall of Fame a couple months ago, I saw the trailer for it in their baseball movies exhibit.  It looks like a fun movie.

  213. 213.

    Geminid

    @Jackie: At some point I’m going to look up the exact wording of that “two week” statement. Was it “up to” two weeks, or two weeks as in, thats the earlist we’ll attack. Barak Ravid’s Axiosal articles might shed some light on the matter.

    IImight not look this up until later, though because there is so much going on there’s not much point. Events are what matter now; like the Geneva meeting betweeen European Foreign Ministers and Iranian Foreign Minister Araghchi* yesterday; or Araghchi’s meetings with Turkish leaders in Istanbul today.

    Turkiye seems to be one of the back channels between Iran and the US. Barak Ravid posted an article in Axios today about an aattemptby Turkiye Monday to stage a meeting between Iranian and US officials in Istanbul.

    Ravid reported that Iranian President Pezeshkian and Foreign Minister Araghchi were interested, but they were unable to get Supreme Leader Khameini to sign off because he was in hiding. Under the Islamic Republic’s system, the President and Foreign Minister are subordinated to the Supreme Leader and the Supreme National Security Council appointed by him.

    * Abbas Araghchi, the Foreign Minister, may be stranded. The U.S. got the Israelis to let him fly out of Iran yesterday, but the Israelis might not let him fly back until there is a deal that satisfies them. There are still communication channels to Tehran he can use, through Qatar and Oman.

  214. 214.

    Gloria DryGarden

    @WTFGhost: as a kid, the pastor at my Episcopalian church explained this camel/ eye of needle metaphor. It so helps to get scholars and graduates of divinity school, to give us context and varied interpretations based of the different translations from Greek and Aramaic, etc.
    the eye of the needle is a gate in the walls of Jerusalem, that is low enough , your camel has to go on its knees to creep through it. The camels don’t much like this, it’s a bitch to get them to walk on their knees, or even get them to kneel.
    Possibly something implied about humbleness, not sure. But I guess the folks using camel transport try, gotta get in to sell your stuff at the souk. But it’s difficult.

  215. 215.

    Gloria DryGarden

    @Omnes Omnibus: I had to memorize that Nicene creed, as a tween. And a second creed. But now, when I go back for funerals of my parents friends, there’s very little in the service I care to say aloud; I don’t like to lie by saying things I don’t believe.

    thx for correct spelling, council of Nicaea. I’m still waking up, I’m not exactly precise yet.

  216. 216.

    Glory b

    @Geminid: It doesn’t matter, Trump throws out “two weeks” whenever he doesn’t have an answer and hopes that some fresh issue will come up and distract the media.

    His “better, cheaper, covering more people for less money” healthcare plan? He already created it and would introduce it in two weeks.

    His attorney’s explanation about how Melania was TOTALLY in the US legally,  in spite of the statement she gave that said otherwise? The attorney was writing an explanatory letter and he’d have a press conference about it in two weeks.

    Recently, Jimmy Kimmel did a segment about the many times Trump promised action in two weeks, without ever producing anything.

  217. 217.

    Geminid

    @Gloria DryGarden: When British General Allenby entered Jerusalem in 1918 he made a point of dismounting first, even though the gate would have accomodated a mounted man.

    “I will not ride where my Savior walked,” Allenby humble-bragged.

    The British liked to say stuff like that; covering their dominance with a cloak of Christian humility.

  218. 218.

    Geminid

    @Glory b: I think the question here is whether that two weeks period is a head-fake and the decision to attack has been made, or if Trump’s team really is offering Iran an off-ramp through negotiations like they say they are. I cannot tell.

  219. 219.

    Gloria DryGarden

    @Geminid: interesting.
    Maybe also, he had a compartment for humbleness and his spiritual beliefs, separate from his dominant Englishman in public, persona. comparmentalized..

    i do hope someone nominated the play on words about how humble, up above, in earlier comments. That was priceless.

    Im off to a solstice thingy. Wish we were having a drum circle after.

  220. 220.

    scav

    Council of Nicaea didn’t choose the books of the bible to include as orthodox and it wasn’t even the end of Arianism — they argued about that for a couple more councils.

  221. 221.

    Geminid

    @Gloria DryGarden: Yeah, Allenby grew up in the Victorian age and had Victorian values. He was more like Rudyard Kipling, the advocate for Empire than like Siegfried Sassoon, the disillusioned WWI Lieutenant who wrote Memoirs of a Foxhunting Man

    Ed. Enjoy the ceremony, and Happy Solstice!

  224. 224.

    MagdaInBlack

    @Geminid: It feels a lot like your first option, head-fake, is the answer, doesn’t it?

    eta: altho, it would be typical of trump to waste all that money setting folks in place to do it and then…..do nothing. ( which is what I hope for)

  225. 225.

    Hildebrand

    @scav:

    There were three general criteria in the early church for choosing books – apostolicity (written by one of the apostles or their disciples), catholicity (widely read and shared), and orthodoxy (adhered to a fundamentally consistent understanding of the person and work of Jesus, the Trinity, sacraments, soteriology (salvation), and the ‘church’).

    The process of building out the canon was pretty organic and was well in hand by the end of the second century. By the time of the Council of Nicea, in the early fourth century, it was well established, they just signed off on what already existed.

  228. 228.

    karen gail

    Haven’t read the comments, yet. What caught my eye on headline page was that a couple of media outlets just realized that Stephen Miller is the one running the show. Now calling him “shadow president.” Gee, just because when he opens his mouth the soon to be latest EO falls out? Some noticed his “talking points” becoming EO’s back in January.

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