I agree completely with John that the word “treason” should not be used lightly. Thus, I disagree with my man Eric Massa when he describes Chuck Grassley’s “pull the plug on grandma” quip as treason.
On the other hand, it is worth noting that there are plenty of teabaggers out there who are talking about overthrowing the government and that attempting to overthrow the government would almost certainly meet the standard of treason. Obviously, it only becomes treason when you actually attempt the overthrow, not when you write about it from the safety of your basement or mobile home. And Grassley has yet to advocate the overthrow of the government himself.
But I think it’s fair to say that Grassley is palling around with would-be traitors.
simonee
IOKYAR, bitches! It’s only considered treason and unpatriotic when liberals are involved.
Laura W
It was thoughtful of you to pull this after it first posted, DougJ.
I had high hopes you’d catch your typo in the interim.
“should not be used lightly”
You’re welcome?
RememberNovember
What about Bachmann, who encouraged her constituents to “arm themselves”.
Anne Laurie
lightly
Remember, kids, in Wingnut World it’s only treason if it’s directed at a Republican administration. And you can only be a traitor if you’re defending, or associating with people who defend, people whose skin tone is darker than a paper bag.
Anne Laurie
Welcome back, Laura W! How’d the big move go?
Makewi
I’d say it would need to move to the planning stage to be eligible for the treason label. Even then, many of the 60’s radical groups were never charged with treason, and some of them went beyond mere planning.
MikeJ
I wouldn’t use the word treason for Grassley. I would say that he is harmful to civil debate, that he is actually harming the country, and doing so deliberately to score political points.
I’d also call him a liar, which is well documented and beyond dispute. Somehow the SCLM won’t call him even that.
El Tiburon
I think the wingnuts preferred nomenclature for mobile home is “single-wide”
It’s only treason if said by anyone with a name that rhymes with ‘bore’ ‘blinton’ ‘brugman’ ‘belosi’ and ‘bobama’
jemerson
Sure words have meaning, but as I remember the word “treason” lost most of its meaning during the previous administration when it was freely applied to those of us who saw the impending Iraq war for the disaster it came to be and were patriotic enough to speak about it…
Yes, I remember that clearly, so I really can’t complain too loudly when the same label is applied to the ideological blinkered when their sole purpose is to betray the American people for political gain…
The Grand Panjandrum
Massa should be scorned for the ridiuculous use of the word treason. Uncalled for and idiotic.
What you are writing of DougJ may be more precisely defined as either sediton or fomenting insurrection.
Grassley is not interested in any of these, obviously, because he has a pretty good gummint job that includes a pretty darn good healthcare plan.
JGabriel
DougJ:
I don’t agree with Massa, but I also don’t have a problem with it either.
After years of listening to winger jackasses make accusations of treason to anyone who opposed the Iraq War or torture, I’m pleasantly entertained by the thought of their heads exploding at the indignity of being called traitor by a Demoncrat Congressperson.
It warms the withered cockles of my vestigial heart.
.
DougJ
@TGP
Treason is defined constitutionally as follows:
Trying to overthrow the government by violent means seems to me to be levying War.
flounder
I really want Republicans to freak out and play the outrage card about this, because I think in the current climate, they’ll end up having to defend all the Obama=Nazi crap and guns around the president is an American tradition nonsense..
freelancer
http://obamaisliterallyhitler.tumblr.com/
‘Nuff said.
Shygetz
I agree that the T-word should not be used to describe Grassley. Instead, I think you should use the F-word…fraud.
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
IANAL, but isn’t this sedition, in and of itself a serious crime?
I didn’t think advocating that oneself or others should violently overthrow the govt. was protected speech under the 1st Admendment. And it seems to me that the real game being played by the extreme right wing fringers is to hint at what they mean verbally and symbolically (i.e. conspicuously showing off an assault rifle outside where the POTUS is speaking) without being so direct and explicit as to step over a line which will get them indicted and convicted.
But where is that line located? How coy do you have to be in talking about how you want to “opple-tay the overnment-gay” in order to stay out of trouble? Because it seems to me that the worst of the teabagger talk today is getting pretty darn obvious as to what they really mean, without much left in the way of wink-wink-nudge-nudge-say-no-more.
Linkmeister
@freelancer: Somebody put a lot of effort into that. Clever, very clever.
arguingwithsignposts
Obviously, it only becomes treason when you actually attempt the overthrow, not when you write about it from the safety of your basement or mobile home.
I wish someone would send that a-hole Grassley back to his mobile home. I thought nobody could top McConnell in the cranky old man vein, but Grassley has pushed him aside lately.
I consider Pence and the like to be the middle-aged white man vein.
Which reminds me, every time I see these GOPers standing in front of the cameras outside the Senate chambers, it’s quite possibly the whitest gathering this side of a KKK meeting. I hope the non-white population of this country is taking notice of the IGMFU party (I Got Mine, F You courtesy of Sadly, No!)
tc125231
@Shygetz: I like Krugman’s epithet for Niall Ferguson” “Poseur”.
Laura W
@Anne Laurie: Well you’re as thoughtful as DougJ. What a blog.
Move went
as well as can befar better than expected, thanks. I kept telling myself: “Whine, bitch and stress as much as you like, sissy girl, but always remember: this one’s cross-town and not cross-country.”That shut me right up. (As if.)
My house rocks, I love where I live. We even have maintained hiking trails with their own bridge trolls!
General Winfield Stuck
In the 60’s you had to look far and wide to find an un-treasonous soul. From Johnson to Nixon to the Weather Underground, to the apologists of Nixon invading Cambodia and bombing civilians in NV. To the FBI spying illegally as well as the CIA doing same and assassinating for sport when they weren’t engineering coups of democratically elected heads of state. (see Chile) All of it undermining our constitution, indirectly, or directly. Broad def, I know. But apt for the times IMHO>
General Winfield Stuck
@ThatLeftTurnInABQ:
Sedition. thanks. couldn’t bring it up from mental database for my comment.
Laura W
@Laura W: Ah, I worked so hard on that link. I give up.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/13481225@N03/3836827977/
(I know I posted this earlier but it was the delight of my day. Next to having my house cleaned by someone other than myself.)
Makewi
@flounder:
Well the Obama is a Nazi crap is an extension of the well worn Bush is a Nazi crap. Both of which are just dumb. Bringing guns to political meetings is not something I would choose to defend. Even if it’s legal, it isn’t smart or considerate.
Everyone knows that Obama isn’t a Nazi because he is a bicycle.
Ash Can
I’m with DougJ. Massa may be a good guy, but I get bent out of shape when anyone misuses words or terms, especially when serious business is involved. By devaluing the word “treason,” Massa devalues his whole argument, and that’s the real problem.
BOB in Exile
http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=70145
President Lincoln did not whine about a single man with a rifle. He allowed the militias to arm and assemble against him. But then again, he understood the Constitution.
And he had balls enough to order the shelling of civilians in the case of true treason.
If you want to see what a Presidential Executive Order used to look like, read Lincoln’s first, above.
mutt
try googling> Sedition Ray Luc Levassuer Ohio 7 <for a modern day Sedition trial. 6 people were charged with conspiring to overthrow the entire USG.
After a multi million dollar trial, the jury didnt buy it.
Treason, like torture, evidently is what the State says it is, at a given point in time.
like nazi & gestapo, its overused, and dilutes the notion of what it takes to resist actual nazi’s, or the Gestapo.
What these wingnuts say dosnt equal what people charged with Sedition- Puerto Rican independistas, Sioux who refused to starve in a Gvt death camp, or what folks like the O7 did to get there. (For hundreds of Sioux, the scaffold)
freelancer
@Makewi:
Fuck off, he’s obviously a Cylon:
http://cognidissidence.blogspot.com/2009/08/truth-is-out-obama-is-cylon.html
JGabriel
BOB in Exile:
Sounds like you fell asleep before the end of the show again, BOB.
.
Shawn in ShowMe
Neither does Obama.
freelancer
@BOB in Exile:
President Lincoln did not whine about a single man with a rifle.
Probably would have had cause to worry about a singe white tea-bagger carrying a pistol with a macabre sense of the theatrical.
El Cid
Well, you’re talking about a lot of people who think the Confederacy was the highest form of patriotism.
freelancer
@El Cid:
Are these the same people who bitch at liberals, telling them to get over Bush v. Gore? a la “Gawd, that was like almost a decade ago! Get over it!”
72% of Fox Viewers think that HCR will provide coverage to illegal immigrants.
Bobby Jindal poo-poo’s the pork of High-Speed Rail, slams stimulus, but has members of the state executive saying:
The Cynical Exploitation of the Stupid on the right is Palpable.
Dollared
I think the whole treason thing misses the point, and it gets back to what Perlstein said last night in his WaPo chat.
The Democrats are afraid to use basic fairness and class warfare arguments, proven arguments with strong emotional appeal, because they are afraid of…..?
So: Grassley is not committing treason. What he is doing is advocating screwing the daylights out of his constituents for the private profit of a few insurance companies.
In the same vein, due to the overall cost of health care, he is advocating that thousands of his constituents lose their jobs so that his friends in the insurance industry can keep their jobs.
He should be called a liar and a cheat, and his friends should be called thieves. That’s what Harry Truman would have said.
Tsulagi
@Makewi:
You would think, wouldn’t you? Common sense and courtesy might even lead you to suggest your fellow birthers and deathers Please Leave the Firearms at Home. But then, many of the 100+ commenters in that #1 recommended RedState diary would tell you you would be wrong. Very first comment…
That’s the ticket, a 1,000 armed whackjobs lends credibility. Real smart “Socrates” follows with a quick ditto…
Here’s hoping one of the problems you have is counting all the moving red dots on your chest from the Secret Service when you come armed.
Amazing. Plenty in that thread expanded on their belief that everyone in colleges and shopping malls should be packing. If everyone came to townhall meetings armed, everyone would be safe. What could possibly go wrong? Deep thinkerers and strategerers these guys.
neill
“palling around with would-be traitors” is called conspiracy and chuck grassley is a goddam traitor.
but ask me how i really feel about it…
steve s
Yeah, if your dumb Freeper ass is walking around with an assault rifle near the president, your head is probably in at least one set of crosshairs you’re not aware of.
alien radio
@tc125231:
You got that wrong Niall Ferguson is spelled T W A T
El Cid
The longstanding Democratic over-caution on liberalism and local arguments for favoring the vast majority (i.e., ‘populism’ in modern parlance, as if the natural state were favoring the wealthy few) is not due to cowardice, or spinelessness, or error, or a failure of creativity, or any of those things.
It’s because they don’t want those arguments to dominate, to be too strong, to get in the way of positioning the Democratic Party as the More Rational Party of Big Business.
This isn’t cynicism, either. It’s simply outlining a very obvious set of incentives and disincentives. Heck, as a faithful industry shill, especially as an ‘even the liberal so & so’ shill, I could lose my election and work on any number of corporate boards and big-money-backed foundations, etc., etc.
And realizing that deep-seated opposition to standing for a country that favors the vast majority over the wealthiest few shouldn’t make one disheartened, at least not for too long. It’s just another part of life we have to deal with. It doesn’t mean you’ll lose every battle or that this is the way things will be forever. It just means you have to accept reality first to understand
We grassroots liberals have a bizarre tendency to continually mistake Democratic figures inability to do what we want them to do as some sort of inexplicable error, when instead it is simply them doing what they prefer to do and then having a hard time explaining that to people who won’t like to hear it.
They’d much rather sound stupid or spineless to liberals and lefties than go against the policies and industries and social classes they prefer. They don’t care that you think they’re dumb or mistaken or spineless.
Origuy
Dante put fraudulent advisers in Bolgia 8 of the Eighth Circle of Hell, where they are encased in individual flames. I don’t believe in Hell, especially Dante’s version, but sometimes it’s nice to think about.
mutt
what El Cid says. Apply that template to the Pakistan army, re: fighting “terrorism”.
Boy are they dumb, why cant they get it right? US “experts” say.
Missing the point entirely they ARE doing “getting it right”, its just that thier interests are the opposite of ours.
well put, El Cid, well put…..
El Cid
@mutt: Hail fellow, well mutt.
Martian Buddy
Is sedition even a crime anymore? I thought that the sedition act was repealed precisely because of the same sort of wingnut asshattery (accusing political opposition of fomenting sedition) that we all know and loathe today.
Notorious P.A.T.
“That’s the ticket, a 1,000 armed whackjobs lends credibility.”
I was listening to a news report about how the Taliban plans to disrupt Afghanistan’s election and intimidate voters with violence, and I thought to myself “Christ, is that much different than what’s going on in America now?”
Makewi
@freelancer:
re: the 72%
The problem, near as I can tell is this provision – found in Section 152.
Here is the whole bill. It’s really very long, and unfortunately a search for the term citizen only turns up 2 hits, neither of which seem to point away from the conclusion that 72% seem to have made. Can you point to something in the bill that is proof they are wrong?
Anne Laurie
@Laura W:
True, that. On the other hand, when one moves cross-country, there’s more of an incentive to throw out random-stuff-that-might-come-in-handy-someday and the still-unopened boxes from the last move. Shorter hops, it’s tempting to think “what’s one more carload?” until just before the cleaning-deposit inspection is due and just after the last trash pickup.
@Tsulagi: I’ve always assumed the Secret Service hires the best snipers, those good enough to follow
traitorG. Gordon Liddy’s advice about “Head shots first.”El Cid
@Makewi: Sections 242 and 246.
Martian Buddy
OT — Potential good news on health care: some House Democrats are looking to get financial data from the insurance companies. Public hearings along the lines of “this is what your $1,000 deductible is helping to pay for” just might get the ball moving in the right direction again.
mclaren
In actual fact, proposing armed insurrection against the government is sedition. Treason has a wider definition. The constitution defines treason as levying war against America or adherence to its enemies, or giving aid and comfort to its enemies. The constitution also requires two witnesses to an overt act.
Mere talk is not an overt act.
Makewi
@El Cid:
Thanks, 246 would seem to cover it without ambiguity.
Makewi
@Martian Buddy:
I have to disagree. Public hearings in which the Democrats are seen demanding information about legally obtained income from law abiding citizens who are accused of no crimes will be seen for what it is, a horrendous abuse of power.
Davis X. Machina
You got that wrong Niall Ferguson is spelled T W A T
But it’s pronounced ‘Throatwarbler-Mangrove”.
Davis X. Machina
I didn’t think advocating that oneself or others should violently overthrow the govt. was protected speech under the 1st Admendment.
It is. Advocacy alone is just about un-actionable. Brandenburg v. Ohio. , 1969
T. O'Hara
I realize most Democrats think “enemies” means “Republicans,” but I don’t think that’s what the framers had in mind.
El Cid
@T. O’Hara: Yeah, because throughout my lifetime it’s always been us stinking dirty hippies accusing other people of betraying and threatening the nation in service of a foreign foe.
T. O'Hara
Well, no, the dirty hippies were too busy betraying the nation in service of foreign foes to accuse others of it. Lately, liberals have gotten much better at projection.
Comrade Kevin
@El Cid: And, on cue, Stig O’Hara, idiot of no fixed hairdo, provides you with an example of just that kind of right-wing idiocy.
El Cid
No, we dirty hippies were trying to keep the idiot hawks from screwing over both this and other countries.
But then, righties don’t know the difference between patriotism and sedition anyway, given their glee to sell out the nation’s interest at the slightest provocation, lie to its citizens, and particularly the shitty Southern conservative’s South’s retarded fetishization of the pile of garbage known as the Confederacy.
T. O'Hara
Treason? Well, at least they were actual “enemies” . . . not just someone who said something unkind about Dear Leader’s health care plan.
zoe kentucky in pittsburgh
C’mon folks, ignore the trolls, please. Don’t encourage them.
someguy
The last anti-sedition act was in 1918. It defined sedition as any speech criticizing the government’s activities. Wilson used it to throw tens of thousands of anti-war protestors, communists, union organizers, and other critics of the government in jail during and after WWI. It also provided a statutory basis for censoring newspapers. It was repealed in 1920.
I’d have no problem with bringing it back to silence the tea baggers, but only if Obama would promise to throw them in jail. They’re in favor of harsh punishments for lawbreaking, right?
JWW
Dougj,
It appears you have defined the word Treason with the help of some book. It seems apparent you could not define the word yourself or from the education you have recieved.
So, give me your definition of “Tea Bagger”? Where will you search and who will you call?
If you are looking for an answer, go ask a Tea Bagger.
I’ve not been to a so called Tea Party, but I still know who they are, just as I know who you. I always weigh the thought and meaning of both sides. You have tunnel vision and only see one way.
Back to the 1st question, what is a Tea Bagger?
El Cid
@T. O’Hara: You gotta be shitting me. Jane Fonda? That’s what you got? Those are the big guns? Really? Dude, that doesn’t even rate on the Dick Cheney scale. Hell, you could probably have fried Nixon if LBJ had simply been willing to release that the treasonous son of a bitch had been scheming with the Vietnamese to delay peace talks, promising them more if elected. But, no, LBJ had his weird sense of ‘let’s keep the Republic together’ instead of simply releasing the intelligence to the American public to see what rotten, back-stabbing cowards Republicans are.
T. O'Hara
You really are rather dim. Did you understand the “enemies” discussion at all? What “enemies” did Dick Cheney aid? Halliburton? Nixon aided the Vietnamese? By bombing Hanoi? What planet do you . . . never mind.
El Cid
@T. O’Hara: What enemies did Dick Cheney aid? Why, all the nations throughout the Middle East who didn’t know that Brewster-Jennings was a CIA front!
You’re too stupid to even understand the situation of an unelected candidate undercutting the actual, current President of the USA in attempting to undermine negotiations with the Vietnamese in the middle of a war with U.S. troops on the ground. Fuck, but you’re just god-damned stupid. Thick, boy. Not intellectual. Dim.
Oh, and please don’t cit any discussion linked to you an intellectual reference point. That is, if you want anyone to do anything but laugh.
Jaquestraw
How many here plan on boycotting Whole foods?They might really be one of your enemies.
General Winfield Stuck
Why don;t we just settle this and say we think everyone on your side THara are traitors and as we’ve heard ad nauseum from your side, all liberals are also traitors. We can begin with this acceptance and build upon it for better relations.
gwangung
Anyone check the extent of ‘nym hopping here?
Boring.
Comrade Kevin
@Jaquestraw: I have set foot in the place for the last time.
T. O'Hara
Connected to something like, say, a war? Or saying something mean about your favorite president (you know, “the one” whose approval rating is slipping)? The “you did it too” defense is pretty weak anyway, but redefining “it” down to exercising free speech is even weaker. Especially if you’re talking about actual speech (and not things your side likes to call “speech,” like flag burning or stomping).
IndieTarheel
@El Cid:
Read that, saw this.
T. O'Hara
Conspiring with the North Vietnamese? Treason!! (Oh, wait, you mean he was conspiring with the South Vietnamese? Uh, those were our allies, right?) Uh, never mind.
You really are having a hard time with this “enemies” concept, aren’t you? Are you considered one of the bright ones around here?
General Winfield Stuck
@T. O’Hara:
And here I was trying to be bigger than that. The Iraq war? You really don’t want to go down that road, my man. No sir. Not at all.
T. O'Hara
But if you were to meet with the North Vietnamese delegation during peace talks, that would be very serious indeed. (What? Kerry did that?) That’s bad, right? Or is it “IOKIYAD”? Or had he already suffered enough (even if it was mostly from his own grenades)?
T. O'Hara
Here are som true patriots, dissenting (back when dissent was patriotic).
General Winfield Stuck
@T. O’Hara:
Now that we have established that both sides carry some nasty ass signs from the fringes, maybe we could move on to who has been bringing firearms to democratic political events, and which side has main stream blogs suggesting armed resistance and open rebellion against the government.
And which side has the crazies that are killing their opponents. Ie Pittsburg cops, Tiller, UU Church etc.. etc..
And which side has it’s leaders go on national teevee and condone bringing firearms to political events with the presnit, brandishing assault weapons and handguns.
And which side has it’s Governors called for secession from the union/ I could go on. Stop watching so much Fox News for faux equivilence. Because faux equivilence is all you have. Emphasis of faux, phony, bullshit.
bago
Actually, I think Laser pointers are the perfect foil to openly armed goons. It’s a gentle touch.
BC
Ya know, Ruby Ridge happened during George H. W. Bush’s administration and had nothing to do with Democrats or the DFH at all. And George H. W. Bush was the ONLY president to use the words “New World Order.” And the whole Koresh arrest thing was planned during George H.W. Bush administration (happened in February 1993, just a few weeks after Clinton was inaugurated). Wish the rightwing had a better grasp of history. And if you fly the Stars and Bars, then you should not be calling anyone else a “traitor” to the USA.
T. O'Hara
How about President Obama? Is he palling around with traitors? Ayers actually built bombs to blow up US servicemen. Or is it okay because he only managed to kill his fellow domestic terrorists?
T. O'Hara
Larouchies and Dingell supporters are “both sides”? It looks more like both sides of the same coin.
General Winfield Stuck
Dude, Doood dood. Linking Larouchies to dems, regardless of what he ran as once, is about as lame as lame can be. That’s like me saying the Westboro Church nutbugs are main stream GOP. And actually me saying that is a lot closer to the truth than silliness your coughing up. Give it a rest already. Geesh/
T. O'Hara
It’s even lamer when you losers link them to Republicans. And he ran as a Democrat seven times, not once.
General Winfield Stuck
I don’t care if he ran as Queen Elizabeth every damn day of the week, His beliefs mirror that of whackiest Glibertarians in existence. And we all know where they stand on the ideological scale, far right. far far right.
Now why don’t you go and clean your guns and talk turkey with your right wing militia buds. I hear they are getting bigger and crazier by the day. Maybe you can water that tree of liberty by pissing in the wind. Expert at that as you are.
We have health reform to get passed and some soshilism to install, and have not the time to play twenty questions with idiots.
Jaquestraw
Obama planning on bringing terrorists along with their family friends and supporters who will move there so they can be close and visit every day to the united states and giving them constitutional rights might just qualify in my opinion.The trial lawyer association will be happy.Where is the birth certificate?
Jaquestraw
@ Comrade Kevin
who needs healthy food, mind and spirit when you get Obamacare in return.