Nader feels ignored:
“This is what I meant a year ago when I said the next year will determine whether Barack Obama will be an Uncle Tom groveling before the demands of the corporations.”
Charming.
This post is in: Assholes, Manic Progressive
Nader feels ignored:
“This is what I meant a year ago when I said the next year will determine whether Barack Obama will be an Uncle Tom groveling before the demands of the corporations.”
Charming.
Comments are closed.
MikeJ
Why has nobody beaten him senseless with a bag full of dimes?
Or have they?
(Note: I do not condone violence, even against the very, very stupid.)
pillsy
It’s good to know that, even in these uncertain times, Ralph Nader is still a swollen asshole.
El Cid
‘What? I was simply referring to being a major character in a historic American novel. What did you think I meant?’
SGEW
I can’t believe I voted for that guy in ’96. Sigh.
r€nato
Ralph who?
Merry Fucking Christmas to all of you hygiene-challenged fornicating 60s counterculturalists.
r€nato
@SGEW:
I forgive you. I don’t think in 1996 that Nader had quite yet gone over the deep end.
Napoleon
@MikeJ:
Personally I think it would be more fitting if he was hit with a Chevy Corvair crossing the street or was hit on the head by a box of Butterfly Ballots, but that is just me.
r€nato
Even though I am agnostic, I am looking forward very much to seeing midnight mass at St. Peter’s, live at 2pm local time.
(still a Catholic at heart, even though I have fallen far, far away from the church)
MikeJ
@Napoleon: Mine was a probably too obscure reference to his statement that there was “not a dime’s worth of difference” between Bush and Gore.
General Winfield Stuck
Ralph crapped on his audience a long time ago.
Dannie22
Ralph calls the president an uncle Tom , but I don’t think Ralph would like it very much if someone called him an”ayrab”. Just sayin’
pillsy
@Gen. Stuck:
So Ralph Nader is the Paul Verhoeven of vanity presidential candidates?
I’d buy that for a dollar!
El Cid
Ralph is not going to hear our comments because he’s still working too hard building up a national Green Party, which is what he said the purpose of his ’96 and ’00 runs were. I mean, I’m assuming he’s been doing that, because, well, that’s what he said he was doing.
Leo
Once again Balloon Juice is ahead of the curve. BJ local trolls were calling Obama an Uncle Tom days ago. Nader needs to step up his game.
mr. whipple
Maybe Ralph can borrow Jane’s Photoshop installation disc.
aimai
What a truly vile person Nader has shown himself to be. I mean, really, what the fuck? But his sister is a very well respected legal anthropologist, so I feel sorry for her.
aimai
El Cid
@Dannie22: Ghammu Toom?
arguingwithsignposts
Scary smudge, just for Nader. Well, and you folks.
El Cid
@aimai: I feel envious of his sister. “Legal anthropologist” sounds like a cool job.
Leelee for Obama
To paraphrase the late, great, Lloyd Bridges: ” Looks like I picked a bad time to expect people I respect, or used to respect, to behave like people I could still respect.” And, yeah, I’m talking to you two, Jane and Ralph.
@r€nato: I have to say, I really don’t remember Ralph in “96. At the time, I was working 70 hours a week and barely had time to eat. I’ll have to Google some stuff, but not today.
General Winfield Stuck
@arguingwithsignposts:
LOL. That’s a winner!!
Napoleon
@MikeJ:
Ah, I figured there must be something behind what you wanted to use, but the cold medicine must have kept me from figuring in out. How about someone beating him senseless with a bag of dimes while being hit by a Corvair as a compromise.
Tim I
Ralph is making a serious attempt to snatch the ‘Lefty Scumbag of the Year Award’ away from Jane Hamsher. The racist undertone gives him a real edge. Jane is gonna have to pull out her Blackface Lieberman again to stay in this contest.
Leelee for Obama
@arguingwithsignposts: I really have to thank you again, AWS. Smudge is the happiest little thing, and I love how you’re sharing her!
You can re-use that photo on talk-like-a-pirate day! Photoshop an eyepatch!
Robin G.
@r€nato: “Lapsed Catholic” is, I believe, a registered denomination.
DJShay
I’m waiting for this to show up as a supportive diary on Dkos with supportive comments. And you know it would.
Lolis
That original comment, made before the election, made me lose all respect for Nader. I actually voted for him and campaigned for him in 2000, while a student at Berkeley. I never voted for him again but I had never regretted my vote until Nader said, “Uncle Tom.” That is completely innapropriate. Obama’s race should not be brought into any political discussion.
Now, Nader, Kucinich and all the other “purists” bore me. It is easy to be pure when you are essentially on the sidelines, doing nothing. I am more interested in people who want to accomplish things. I now fully accept that I will always be far more liberal than the Democratic nominee and it doesn’t bother me. For being a former Green party member, I’m pretty satisfied with Obama so far. Yay for health care getting passed!
Leelee for Obama
And a proud group we are, too! Also.
GregB
I have no problem with anyone voicing displeasure with the President. However, using racist bullshit in the process is the quickest way to get ignored.
Ralph, go sit on a Nader bolt.
-G
lamh31
Here’s a question, why is it so common place for even supposed, “liberal” white to start using racial terms when they are upset with Blacks. Like: uppity, N)(gg)(, “Uncle Tom”, “welfare queens”, etc. See: Barack Obama, Kayne West (check out his twitter feed after the Taylor Swift incident, the guy was called all kinds of N*&gg** for awhile), Jessie Jackson, Al Sharpton.
I’m sorry, as much as some in my culture have to be mad at some in white america about, we don’t go around calling white people to quote Chris Rock “cracka azz crackas” do we.
Still, we are never surprised, always disappointed, never surprised.
Nader is a joke.
Max
Can I say that I’m surprised all 60 dems voted “aye” this morning. We only needed 50 plus Biden, but it was great to see the entire group vote as a block.
Good on them.
Oh, and fuck Nader.
Mark
I still don’t feel bad that I voted for him in ’00. (Knowing that Gore would win CA anyways.) I sleep better than I would if I had cast a vote for Lieberman. But he is a d-bag of the highest order.
SGEW
OT (sorry! sorry! HCR stuff; contentious, I know):
MSNBC video of Obama’s speech on the Senate HCR bill here.
“Biggest deficit reduction in a decade.”
“These are not small reforms, these are big reforms.”
“Most important reform of our health care system since Medicare passed in the 1960’s.”
Kind of a meh delivery, but pretty good talking points. Joe Biden looks punch drunk.
arguingwithsignposts
@Leelee for Obama:
Arrgh. I’ll have to do better for the real pirate day.
Tomlinson
Just keep enabling the hippie punchers, Ralph. Maybe you could work with Hamsher and Norquist – you guys could shoot for another decade or so of republican rule, then all sail off into your individual sunsets thinking that you were, individually and collectively, unappreciated and misunderstood.
Strandedvandal
@ Lolis That is by far, the most well reasoned and thought out response to all of this.
Dannie22
@lamh31
I want to know the same thing. I think some liberals believe they can get a pass because they are liberal. At least that’s their excuse.
Brick Oven Bill
Barack is not Uncle Tom. Uncle Tom exercised Free Will and made his own decisions. Uncle Tom also demonstrated courage, and incurred personal sacrifice.
Karen S.
Amen to this, lamh31. I was thinking along the same lines.
arguingwithsignposts
@Brick Oven Bill:
Just shut it, BoB. you SAY you’re santa’s dildo-wielding elf, but you just act like a dick.
Leelee for Obama
@arguingwithsignposts: You are the bomb diggety! Hope that little kitteh is making your smiler work. She is just so sweet!
El Cid
Uncle Tom was not a subterranean robot puppet sent by ACORN to destroy electric trains. I think you see where this is going.
Svensker
@arguingwithsignposts:
That’s what happens when you give kitties spiked eggnog.
(Seriously, what IS that cat doing?)
Strandedvandal
@arguingwithsignposts:
That’s no act.
rs
@lamh31: Maybe you could point us to some “common place” specifics in addition to Nader’s execrable comment and Kanye West’s twitter feed (was there a box to check for people making racial slurs to identify themselves as ‘liberal, conservative, white separatist’?).
arguingwithsignposts
@Svensker: She was licking her fur, which is not as scary as advertised.
mk3872
Oh, good, Ralph Nader’s name re-appears.
Makes me remember that it was many of the same radical leftys in 2000 like Moore & Maher that have turned against Obama now that turned against Gore in 2000 and exhorted millions to vote for Nader.
Which , of course, brought us 8 years of love & affection from George W.
Brick Oven Bill
I am Santa’s vibrator wielding elf arguingwithsignposts. There is a difference.
DecidedFenceSitter
@Lolis:
That’s more or less where I am. I’m a flaming social progressive type. Thanks to Bush I’ve become a far more lefty financial progressive type (I’ve got from calling myself financially conservative to financially responsible to “Fuck it, tax the hell out of the corporations and the rich, they are the only ones with money.”).
My dreams will never get going, all I can do is speak them, and support those who will move in at least the general direction of where I want to go. Sure, it may be at a 45 degree angle or worse from the direction I want, but it beats going in the opposite direction.
tomvox1
Is there anything better than old white guys? Left or Right, so many of them are just blinkered by their antiquated views on race.
arguingwithsignposts
smudge is tired of Ralph’s weak-ass game.
note: the shaved belly and sutures are from her spay.
lamh31
@ rs,
Sorry, we blacks do tend to exaggerate and condemn a whole swath of people though to the actions of a few, white people never do that, and when they do, they surely apologize.
You have the google, do ur own research.
SGEW
@tomvox1: Um. Not that it should matter, but Ralph Nader is of Lebanese descent.
eemom
you all is cracking me up this morning, and I gotta get my Christmasing done.
These are indeed the halcyon days of lefty sour grapes. It’s kind of sad about Nader though — I mean he WAS, at least once upon a time, a true True Believer who did a lot of good.
Now, alas, he’s just a bitter old fart.
freelancer
OT – Anybody in the middle of Pennsylvania? Radley needs a bailout.
In all seriousness, it totally sucks. His car broke down, and his dogs are with him.
Gringo Starr
Har har!
I love watching mainstream Democrats convince themselves that all those “far leftys” – you know, the ones who saw no difference between the parties – were really going to vote for Gore until that evil Nader diverted their attention. Nine years of this bullshit, and not one person has ever successfully explained that leap of logic.
Actually, you fucking retards, the only reason they were motivated to participate at all was to try and get Nader 5% of the vote.They would have stayed home with the other 50-60% of the population that never votes had he not been on the ballot. Funny how you morons don’t spend years blaming nonvoters for not keeping Bush out of the White House. Don’t want to look elitist, I guess, attacking the majority of the population for being apathetic bums too selfish to do their civic duty, etc.
Anyway, don’t mind me. Continue with your periodic heresy-hunting.
arguingwithsignposts
Reading El Cid from an earlier thread, I now honestly believe that the CSPAN call-in shows are just an epic opportunity for Punk’d. Discuss.
Annie
@arguingwithsignposts:
LOL. I love the little Sarah Palin wink thing that Smudge has got going….Its kinda of a “Screw you Ralph Nader — wink, wink.”
tamied
@DecidedFenceSitter:
I love this, this is exactly where I am too. And I work for one of those large corporations as well, so I’m a blood-sucking leech as well.
ericblair
@Lolis: Now, Nader, Kucinich and all the other “purists” bore me. It is easy to be pure when you are essentially on the sidelines, doing nothing.
The point is never to get off the sidelines, since then you’d actually have to deal with the decidedly imperfect, messy, real life implementation of your policy, where things aren’t going to work quite as expected and you’ll have to compromise your vision. Much better to announce to the world that the policy does not meet your standards of purity, scamper right back onto the newly moved sideline, and toss rocks at the people trying to get shit done while proclaiming to the world how much better everything would be if they just listened to you.
I’ve seen the panic in purists’ eyes when you tell them that they’re actually going to get their way. The backpedaling is infuriating but funny in retrospect.
arguingwithsignposts
Just so we’re clear, in the past two days Jane Hamsher allied herself with Grover F**king Norquist and launched a petition to get Bernie Sanders (So-c-i-a-l-i-s-t) kicked out of the senate. Arrrggghh. Next, she’ll align with BoB.
Skepticat
@MikeJ: Not sure if dimes were involved, but he’s got the senseless part down.
Brick Oven Bill
The Good Reverend Jesse Jackson.
Compared to Jesse, Ralph is a pretty nice, tolerant, and open-minded guy. Ralph has not stated his intention to cut anybody’s balls off, to my knowledge.
A friend of mine, as a kid, did witness somebody getting their balls cut off as a consequence of a conflict. According to him, it was a traumatic and violent act.
Lisa K.
@freelancer:
Poor Radley. I wish I could help, but I did let him know we were with him in spirit.
I will go kiss my healthy dog now.
Warren Terra
@Tomlinson
RE Nader & Norquist:
(1) Nader spoke at one of Norquist’s Tuesday lunches when they were practically a cabal.
(2) Nader, like some real Greens, cheerfully took campaign $ from R ratfnckers.
lamh31
Great post over at DKOS with very good rational to why the link with Norquist is one line too far for Jane. The diarist lays out in pretty good detail the history of Norquist’s quest against progressive causes, and how this link just undemines Jane’s creditibility, withou resorting to name calling or condescension.
Grover Norquist is our ally? Are you f@%&ing kidding me!
by dengre
Napoleon
@freelancer:
Stranded in Breezewood!!! The turnpike exit from hell.
Yellowdog
@r€nato:
I call myself a recovering Catholic. I haven’t been to church outside of weddings and funerals for almost 50 years but there is still some small part of my agnostic brain that thinks I am going to Hell for having missed Mass.
If I ever had the inclination to return to the church, the latest movement to make the Nazi loving Pius XII a saint makes any reconciliation between me and Rome impossible.
Leelee for Obama
@Lolis: This is where a citizen who wants to see something actually accomplished has to be. The far-left should, within reason, keep bitching. It moves things a little left, which is okey-dokey with me. But, when the far-left doesn’t just butt up against the far-Fright wing, but actually tries to make a coalition of the incredibly wrong, stupid and racist, that’s when a lefty who has watched the debacle of Reagan, Bush 1 and 2, and many others not only not making things better for the many, but actually making things worse that the sane Left HAS to start pushing back. If the sane Right (minimal I know), would do this, maybe we could have nice things.
Napoleon
@Gringo Starr:
???? All that needed to come out and vote were a few hundred in Fla out of 97000 that voted for him in that state. Nice try, but Nader is directly responsible for Bush.
r€nato
@Yellowdog:
I’m not entirely decided that Pius XII was a Nazi symp, one can make a very credible case that he did the best he could under the circumstances and in any case, I loathe historical revisionism. It’s very easy in hindsight to condemn him for not doing this or that; it’s quite a different matter to be in his silk shoes with the fucking Nazis goose-stepping down Roman streets and threatening to do to the Vatican what they were not ashamed to do to every other priest and church in Germany which dared to buck the party line.
r€nato
@arguingwithsignposts:
I have been saying this since the early days of FDL:
Jane Hamsher is not our friend. She is a person with severe anger management issues who would happily burn down our fucking house if she didn’t get her way.
tomvox1
BTW, I’m not so sure this is all that different than those smug, half-bright comments on various blogs & news posts claiming that Rahm is Obama’s “Iago.”
Warren Terra
@Renato
However you feel about Pius XII’s refusal to confront an ascendant, powerful Hitler, there’s also his protection of Nazi – and especially French and Croatian – monsters after the war.
tomvox1
@SGEW:
Well…
If you’re being counted by the US Census and you’re Lebanese, you’re “white.”
If you are being evaluated by Stormfront (no link here–you can look this vile shit up yourself) or some other white supremacist org, you’re not.
So… I think I’ll stick to my take, thanks very much.
Robin G.
@tomvox1: Ugh. Othello was an idiot. I think the one thing that 80% of the country can agree on is that Obama’s not stupid.
tomvox1
@SGEW:
Well…
If you’re being counted by the US Census and you’re Lebanese, you’re “white.”
If you are being evaluated by Stormfront (no link here–you can look this vile shi*t up yourself) or some other white supremacist org, you’re not.
So… I think I’ll stick to my take, thanks very much.
Warren Terra
Still, Pius XII does at least look good in one light: compared to Pius IX, one of history’s genuine monsters, a pontiff who John Paul II and Benedict also want sainted, Pius XII was a veritable peach.
tomvox1
@SGEW:
Well…
If you’re being counted by the US Census and you’re Lebanese, you’re “white.”
If you are being evaluated by some white supremacist org (no link here–you can look this vile shit up yourself), you’re not.
So… I think I’ll stick to my take, thanks very much.
r€nato
@Warren Terra:
I certainly agree he is thoroughly unworthy of sainthood, at least judged by my secular definition of what makes a saint.
Which is, of course, probably quite a different definition than what a high official in the Vatican considers a saint.
I’m thinking in this case, sainthood is a way of whitewashing Pius XII and the controversies surrounding him. It is the ecclesiastical equivalent of Bush awarding the Medal of Freedom to Tenet and Bremer. After all, what Catholic who wishes to remain in good standing would argue with an official saint?
eemom
@lamh31:
seconded. There’s actual FACTS in there as opposing to ranting vitriol. And much as I detest Jane Hamsher, I didn’t fully appreciate how monstrous this Norquist deal is until I read that diary.
rs
@lamh31: So it’s not “common place”?
HRA
Yes, there was a time when Ralph Nader was a champion of causes and he was interesting. Now it seems there is this drive for all to capture the spotlight and use the most disgusting means to attain it.
Someone’s mention of ayrub and Lebanese reminds me of my cousin in Ohio who loves to use the phrase “raghead”.
I, too, am a member of the lapsed Catholics. I did my duty for the kids and drifted away. Considering the church is 6 houses and across a highway away shows I really am lapsed. Yet, I do get the monthly envelopes in the mail like clockwork.
WyldPiratd
Funny how the insurance company stock soared with the passage of the Senate version of the bill. Funny how all Obama has done about the bonuses paid to Wall Street thieves on the public’s dime is chastize them a little bit. Funny how there has been no consequences for all the rampant theft by the financial industry.
Funny how big Pharma pimped a sweetheart patent protection extension for biologics.
Funny how Obama says he didn’t campaign on the public option when there is tape galore of him doing just that.
Nader isn’t so wrong…Obama has done plenty of groveling and kowtowing.
Even worse, Obama is pissing on a large segment of the people who got him elected.hey aren’t going to forget every election cycle like the Talibangelicals did for 30 years. It’s gonna cost him too, because he has one term President written all over him.
Ana Gama
@WyldPiratd:
If the Repubs run a nutter, I doubt it.
ericblair
@r€nato: I’m not entirely decided that Pius XII was a Nazi symp, one can make a very credible case that he did the best he could under the circumstances and in any case, I loathe historical revisionism. It’s very easy in hindsight to condemn him for not doing this or that; it’s quite a different matter to be in his silk shoes with the fucking Nazis goose-stepping down Roman streets and threatening to do to the Vatican what they were not ashamed to do to every other priest and church in Germany which dared to buck the party line.
Yes, well. If you set yourself up as God’s representative on Earth, the Vicar of Christ, and first in line for sainthood, I expect you to take that bullet in the street.
I see this as the biggest flaw in the modern Church: the overweening moral superiority when in comes to social matters of its flock, and then the “they’re just people what do you expect” excuse when scandal hits. If they’re going to tell me that everyone is just a flawed, sinning human when they’re caught breaking their oaths and covering it up, I’d expect a hell of a lot more humility when they’re telling the congregants how exactly to live their lives.
rs
@WyldPiratd: I agree with you and Nader on every point you mentioned. He should have phrased it like you did.
JD Rhoades
@WyldPiratd:
So the racial slur’s okay with you, then?
cleek
@WyldPiratd:
funny how correlation is not causation.
pillsy
@@WyldPiratd:
If the HCR bill is such a giveaway to the insurance companies, why is AHIP still fighting it tooth and nail?
Napoleon
@ericblair:
You forgot to mention that he was only a few miles away from the site were early Christians were thrown to the lions for what they believed.
Ana Gama
Someone should ask Jane why she isn’t asking for an investigation of every board member of Fannie. If her intent is pure, why single out Rahm?
The Moar You Know
Fuck Ralph Nader. He is a self-aggrandizing retard who is in the game wholly for his own perceived personal glory, and would fall right into place on his knees to suck the cock of any of the corporations he claims to so despise, if they’d only give him a dollah to be the
Sith LordPresident of the United States.Fuck him, and fuck anybody who has ever been stupid enough to vote for him.
Howlin Wolfe
Thom Hartmann is proof you can be a “liberal” or left-wing commentator and not lose your sense of perspective. He holds that the health care reforms that will be passed shortly will pave the way for single payer. I like it for a couple of reasons, one of which is the absolute pain it will cause the Medieval-Americans.
I’m under no illusion that Obama, or the Democrats in general, are not beholden to corporations (especially in the fucking Senate) and their real priority is to those entities. But I think Hartmann is right – we will make progress, and the new HCR bill is a start.
liberal
@cleek:
No, but have you seen any other explanation as to why those stocks soared?
Soul On Ice
Why does Ralph Nader think he’s black?
Bob In Pacifica
I always wonder about people who manage to so screw up the message that they become the story instead of what they say. Jesse Jackson has spent an entire career in public life saying things that ended up offending people so that actual issues weren’t discussed, just Jesse.
The “Uncle Tom groveling” was entirely unnecessary. Is it intentional?
Having said that, I find it remarkable how many people continue with the “bad-jacketing” of Hamsher. I’ve already seen suggested that Hamsher is a racist, an anti-Semite, deranged. All because she’s against the Senate bill. Pretty soon we’ll see her, Nader and Satan photoshopped.
By the way, the current Senate healthcare bill sucks. When the mandates are mailed out along with health insurance increases, guess who owns them? Will it be Obama’s picture printed on the notice or your local Democratic candidate?
liberal
@WyldPiratd:
He’s both right and wrong.
If you limit your view to the issue of support for corporations, then there isn’t really that much difference between the parties. I’m sure there are some differences, but this is indeed where the parties come closet.
The problem is that Nader always (and always has, AFAICT) ignores issues besides the corporate stuff.
Now, someone could attempt to make a plausible argument that the corporate stuff is all that matters (I don’t think that’s right, though), but Nader doesn’t even try. Given his background, he really does think that that’s all that matters.
Ana Gama
@Howlin Wolfe:
I totally agree with Hartmann. This is a first, but essential, first step. Social progress in the USA has always been incremental. That’s why it took over 200 years to get a black POTUS, but only 45 since the Civil Rights era. Taking steps forward is the only way to gain any momentum.
Frankly, I don’t see the private insurance industry surviving the retirement of the baby boomer generation. The writing is already on the wall.
WyldPiratd
pillsy@87:
They are fighting to get the best deal possible for the insurance companies they represent. That’s something Obama didn’t do it at all. In fact, not only did he not fight, he gave away bargaining from a position of strength. Now, he even has the unmitigated gall to say he didn’t campaign on having a public option.
eemom
@Bob In Pacifica:
“All because she’s against the Senate bill.”
please read the Kos diary linked above.
pillsy
@liberal:
Yes, that the market was confident that the bill that will be passed is, instead of a giveaway to the insurance companies, less of a takeaway than was previously expected. Losing less and winning more have effects on stock prices that are pretty hard to distinguish from one another.
The health insurance industry groups don’t like the bill one bit.
JD Rhoades
I haven’t seen “racist” or “Anti-Semite” but I’ve seen plenty of “deranged.” But that’s not just because she’s against the Senate bill. It’s because she’s making common cause with Grover Norquist and the teabaggers and calling for Bernie Sanders, of all people, to lose his seat because he voted for the bill.
Egypt Steve
Let’s just imagine Bill Clinton calling Obama an “Uncle Tom.” He was pilloried, and rightly so, for bringing up Jessie Jackson in the aftermath of the North Carolina primary. The racial resonance was unmistakable. This is a whole lot more overt. I have admired Ralph Nader in the past but he is off my list. He may not be a stone racist, but he’s obviously a moron.
FlipYrWhig
@liberal:
New post today by Nate Silver on health insurance stocks.
gbear
@tomvox1:
Thank you. I needed that this morning.
eemom
@The Moar You Know:
that’s mean, Moar. : (
I voted for him in 2000 because I live in Virginia, which Gore had zero chance of winning…….and because I heard him give a speech back in 1987 when I was a young and innocent law student and was impressed by his passion.
The times, they have a-changed.
JD Rhoades
@WyldPiratd:
For the sake of this question and this question only, I’ll stipulate to all of this.
Does that make it okay to use a racial slur to describe Barack Obama?
Because that was the point of the original post.
Yes or no? It’s a simple question.
WyldPiratd
cleek@86:
You’re better than this, cleek.
I made no claim that Obama caused any of the mess. He is, moreso than anyone else in the entire goddamned country, in a position to do something about it.
You know—bully pulpit and all that happy shit.
pillsy
@WyldPiratd:
Yes, of course they’re fighting for the best deal that they can get for the insurance companies, and they’re doing it by trying to kill the goddamned bill.
Bizarrely, some progressive activists think the best way to hurt the insurance companies is by killing the bill.
I’m betting AHIP knows where the interests of the insurance industry lie a little better than progressive activists do. Call it a hunch.
Gravenstone
@liberal:
Might I suggest that your first mistake was expecting rational responses from Wall Street?
MikeJ
@liberal:
That’s not true. Nader *loves* the agenda of mega corps, at least when it comes to crushing unions. Nader hates workers and has never been afraid to show his contempt for them. There’s not a dimes worth of difference between Nader and the GOP.
Brachiator
@Warren Terra:
History — life itself — is complex, contradictory. Los Angeles radio talk show host Bill Handel recently told a story about how the Vatican sheltered a number of Jews during World War II.
One of them was Handel’s father, Leo (The Leo Handel Story 8-830A (11/26): Bill tells the amazing story of his father).
FlipYrWhig
@WyldPiratd:
Aaarghghgh.
I know this is the new zombie line that will never die, but read the full transcript to the Washington Post interview — link here — and look at the relevant sections on health care, near the end.
I think you’ll find that it’s rather evident that Obama was saying that he campaigned not _only_ on a public option but on a set of principles for what health care reform must involve, and while he didn’t get every _means_ he wanted, he got “95%” of what he had described. He clearly means that the question of whether the bill matches up with his campaign promises is _not_ answered by whether it includes a public option or not, but whether it lives up to his broader goals.
So I think you’ll find that the gall is in fact mitigated.
JoePo
Let’s be fair. I, for one, hate it when my Uncle Tommy kowtows to those Wall Street fat cats.
FlipYrWhig
And he still even says that the public option is “a good idea.” But I suppose since he didn’t say he loves the public option more than his children, it will never be enough.
Folderol and Ephemera
@MikeJ:
I can’t tell if this comment is for real, truthy, snarky, or just outright ironic.
Ruemara
@freelancer:
This. Makes me cry first thing in the morning.
Elie
@eemom:
Gotcha eemom
By the way, Happy and fun filled Holidays to all the misfits here. I very much appreciate this community — VERY much.
pillsy
@MikeJ:
Sure there is. The GOP can get more than 3% of the vote.
MikeJ
@Folderol and Ephemera: My work here is done.
I’m now off to fatten the coffers of our corporate overlords by engaging in a frenzy of consumption in honor of a pagan holiday appropriated by imperialist theocrats.
Merry Kwanza everyone!
amk
Two things are certain in this world. Death and nader being an asshole.
Jennifer
In the words of the inestimable blakno1:
“Ralph Nader is a goat-blowing assclown.”
(And, BTW, does anyone know whatever happened to blakno1? He had his fill of the bullshit at Eschaton several months before I did, and I’ve never seen him on any of the other blogs since. Maybe a nym change?)
John Cole
@freelancer: I got in touch with him- was going to pick him up and take him to a rental place, but he found one right after we talked that is driving a car to him.
The Moar You Know
@eemom: Sorry, I gotta stand by it. He’s the Sarah Palin of the left, a lifelong grifter who’s made his money by demagoguery, outright fraud, and hurting innocent people.
So he sued Ford and got them to cancel production of a borderline unsafe car. So what? That’s thin fucking sauce to hang a career in faux progressivism on, but that’s exactly what he’s done. That’s it. The sole entry on his resume. Pretty pathetic when you think about it.
I would submit that your vote for Nader did, in fact, cause a lot more damage than you think it did. By rewarding the douchebag with votes, you enabled his party machine to keep on doing what it does best – fight Democrats.
Own up to the consequences of your vote and I’ll cut you some slack. But don’t pretend that any vote that you, or any other Nader supporter cast, was “harmless”. You’ve kept a very dangerous man, an anti-labor, anti-liberal, anti-common sense man, competitive in the arena of American politics, and that’s what I get so angry about – and find so unforgivable.
Midnight Marauder
@Tim I:
Undertone?!
cleek
@WyldPiratd:
hmmm… as i remember from high-school English grammar quizzes, parallelism [ex. “funny how…”, “funny how…”, “funny how…”] is typically used to imply connections between the items described.
furthermore, i didn’t mention Obama.
eemom
@The Moar You Know:
hmmm. So you are saying he was NEVER a sincere advocate for the public interest — even back in the 60s and 70s — and ALWAYS a self-promoting fraud? That was not my understanding, but I haven’t researched it.
I’ll also say in defense of my 2000 vote that tired old cliche about hindsight being 20-20. I don’t think the outcome you describe was particularly foreseeable back then. There seemed to be some real merit to the idea of challenging the 2 party duopoly.
tamied
@John Cole: Oh thank you for that information. What a relief. I almost bagged my Christmas plans to drive out to Breezewood and get him.
What a strange wonderful world we live in.
Merry Christmas all!
CalD
Awe, pay no attention to the weakhearted unbelievers, Ralph! Shameless and petulant self-indulgence is the FSM-given right of every American.
How could anyone question what the Green party sees in this guy?
Faux News
I’m totally with The Moar You Know about this piece of shit called Nader. Anyone who voted for Nader in 2000 can thank themselves for voting in George Bush and 8 years of cluster fuck that followed. I hope Nader dies of bone cancer. Soon.
Royce
Ah, the public Wall of Hate is operational once more, on cue. Of course Nader has said many good and true things about the rise of corporate power in our politics, but those somehow were not what the Media highlighted. Hmmm.
But Ralph misspoke so now everyone is all aflutter to have a good spit: the Village Elders have approved it. Thanks for another year of it, my “fellow travelers.” Amazing how people have varied so little through it all, really.
If a man can dedicate his life fighting for the working class and this is the outcome, why would anyone else step up and try–oh, wait, they aren’t. Hmmm. I guess people DO get the government they deserve.
Merry Christmas.
JD Rhoades
@Royce:
Misspoke? No, saying “gurgling” when you meant to say “groveling” would be misspeaking.
What Nader said was fucking racist. Since WyldPiratd refuses to address the question, I’ll address it to you:
Are you saying that Nader saying “many good and true things about the rise of corporate power in our politics” or “fighting for the rights of working people” in the past makes using the grossly offensive and racist term ‘Uncle Tom” okay? Yes or no?
Bob In Pacifica
Take out the racial ad hominems and you get “Obama + “centrists” + corporations = bad healthcare bill”.
If Nader had said that this healthcare bill is a boon to the insurance industry, it will force people to pay outrageous rates instead of bringing rates under control, and people will still be fighting with their insurance companies for coverage, then all the fingerpointing would be held to a minimum.
Yeah, Nader’s an ass. I’ve been saying this for years. Subtract his crappy way of putting things and you’ve got the essence of the Senate bill.
+++
Also, no need for using “groveling” here. Obama seems to be happily onboard this ship.
CaseyL
@John Cole: Bless you, sir.
It’s not that Nader’s an ass that’s the problem; the problem is that so many soi-disant “progressives” didn’t learn anything from the 2000 debacle and are eager to repeat it. That just floors me.
burnspbesq
@arguingwithsignposts:
That picture is hilarious. Smudge has been watching “Pirates of the Caribbean,” it would appear, and has taken to mimicing Johnny Depp’s facial expressions.
Royce
@Faux News:
“Anyone who voted for Nader in 2000 can thank themselves for voting in George Bush and 8 years of cluster fuck that followed. I hope Nader dies of bone cancer. Soon.”
I don’t agree with you and frankly think this kind of ugliness has much more to do with the fallen condition of our country than anything Ralph Nader has done.
What a fool believes, he sees … and America is a land of fools.
Merry Christmas.
Davis X. Machina
Nader-voting is just another example of the general American propensity to perform social signaling by choice of brand name in consumer goods, and applying it specifically to politics.
If a couple of hundred Nader voters in Florida in 2000 had just been given Honda Insights to drive in to the polls in, on condition that they vote for Gore, their friends would have been just as impressed, they’d have felt just as good, and we’d all feel a lot better.
Not to mention the Iraqis……
Royce
@JD Rhoades:
“Are you saying that Nader saying “many good and true things about the rise of corporate power in our politics” or “fighting for the rights of working people” in the past makes using the grossly offensive and racist term ‘Uncle Tom” okay? Yes or no?”
No. Of course that isn’t right to say.
However, I have noticed that people who have decided to blame Nader are decidedly emotional and uninformed and have some kind of investment in hating the man that makes rational discourse impossible.
All this emotion for and about political figures is useless to me. Do a good job and fight for me, I will support you. Few do. Nader did. Good enough for me, even if he has gotten crotchedy in his late period. Anyone would, really, considering.
rs
@Davis X. Machina:Whereas, voting for the Republican or Democrat isn’t. But keep blaming Nader voters for Florida 2000, and we’ll just pretend Jeb Bush, Katherine Harris, and the Supreme Court didn’t steal the state electoral votes and the presidency.
Davis X. Machina
Voting for Gore was stylish and practical. What’s not to like.
r€nato
@Faux News:
Anyone who thought Nader 2000 was a better choice than Gore or Bush… well, I’ll be polite and say that history demonstrates that their judgment was quite lacking.
However, I have to agree somewhat with the points that the Naderistas like to make:
1) Gore should have won Tennessee, his home state. With those electoral votes, there would have been no disputed election.
2) Gore ran a poor campaign, the chief error being allowing himself to be mau-mau’d into running away from the Clinton record of peace and prosperity.
However, Naderistas need to shoulder their share of the blame, something they resolutely refuse to do.
For instance, no matter how many Nader supporters were annoyed by the 2000-era Democratic party, it’s impossible to believe that at least some number of them would have held their noses and voted Gore. It’s even more impossible to believe that they would have voted Bush.
Nader received 97,000 votes in Florida in 2000. If only 10% of those voted Gore and the other 90% either abstained or voted for anybody but Bush or Gore, there is likely a very different outcome which never, ever gets decided by the GOP-ruled Supreme Court.
Royce
@Davis X. Machina:
“Voting for Gore was stylish and practical. What’s not to like.”
Lieberman as VP.
Dr. Loveless
@lamh31:
My theory is that it’s the slimy underbelly of the “my cool black friend” syndrome. Once your cool black friend stops agreeing with you on everything, he becomes an Uncle Tom, or a thug that’s dragging down the black community, or whatever. It’s just as racist as using the N-word, but with a whitewash of liberal concern-trollery on it.
I think quite a few liberals and progressives thought Obama was going to be their cool black friend.
rs
@Dr. Loveless: I’ll ask you the same thing I asked the person who couldn’t answer it originally- where is it “common place”? Direct me to some highly trafficked liberal websites, or statements by noteworthy public liberals that are guilty of what you maintain.@r€nato: I still think Nader 2000 was a better choice than Gore or Bush. I held my nose and voted for Gore (to my everlasting regret- it’s on my conscience I once willingly cast a vote for Lieberman) because I’m realistic enough to recognize the two party rigging of our system and Michigan was a “swing” state, but I wonder about the judgement of anyone who doesn’t think that Nader was a better choice.
Sure, Nader voters should shoulder their share of blame for freely exercising their right to vote for the candidate of their choice in an election in which state and national Republicans repeatedly broke the law (starting with the disenfranchisement of thousands of black voters- but Nader said “Uncle Tom”) and the Supreme Court stamped the theft of an election with their final approval.
Gwangung
I take Nader seriously as to pointing out what needs to be changed. I don’t take him seriously at ALL as to how things get changed.
JD Rhoades
@rs:
I’d like to see this as well, but I strongly suspect that you’ll either get (1) no answer at all; or (2) told to “do your own research.”
That’s what usually happens when trolls pull accusations out of their asses. Ask then to back it up and they either scurry like cockroaches or try to bluster it away.
Anya
@rs: I don’t know about the Kanye twitter thing but reading of DKos these days might shock you. You will see many comments that have racial undertone. I also think most of the PUMA’s were “progressives”, remember Ferraro, and what about all the Liberals who are comparing the president to Tiger Woods (though I don’t include in that category Frank Rich. His did not go for the racial angle).
JD Rhoades
@Anya:
There are thousands of comments there, so to save time, can you maybe point to a specific post, or diary?
rs
@Anya: The only article I’ve read about Tiger Woods was by Eugene Robinson. Give me some names and I’ll read them.
As far as Daily Kos, the only time I spend there is when Bilmon posts. I’ll happily go check out posts that are guilty of what you say is happening, but any asshole can say anything in any thread, so it’s kind of hard to tar a site with the occasional comment in poor taste.
Besides, the contention was that this is a “common place” occurrence, suggesting it’s endemic. If it is, we should be seeing it happening frequently enough that Nader saying “Uncle Tom” isn’t newsworthy in and of itself.
JD Rhoades
After Anya’s post, I went over to DKos and used the “Search” fucnction using ‘Uncle Tom.” I found a couple of uses of it…followed by multiple posts deploring of the use of the term and demanding that the offending post be HR’d. So I don’t see anything supporting the idea that it’s
The Moar You Know
@eemom: Yes, that’s precisely what I’m saying.
You must be joking. The outcome was not only foreseeable, it was inevitable, and the idea wasn’t even particularly original; it’s exactly the same way that Clinton won in 1992. Perot kneecapped Bush I by taking an enormous number of his votes – you can’t make the argument that any Clinton voter was going to be a potential Perot voter, now can you? Hardly. So I’m not buying the “no one could have predicted this disaster” argument. It was a tried and proven strategy to throw an election to the opposing party.
So Nader decided to do the same thing to Gore, and knew what he was doing – I recall a lot of Greenies who were sick of Clinton centrism and wanted the country to suffer for a little bit so that they’d see the light and vote in a truly liberal, true progressive government.
How’d that work out?
Yes, because eight years of peace and prosperity was a horror that this nation should never have to live through again. Well, the Naderites sure seem to have achieved that goal.
Anya
@JD Rhoades: You people are mistaken racism for overt, over the top ‘N” word throwing type. Racism is more complicated than that. I don’t want to google or spend my time searching for what was said but I am telling you, many times when I read HuffPo commenters or this whole full blown attack on Obama by the left as being weak, groveling to the Republicans and unflattering comparison to LBJ and FDR I am saying there an overtone. It’s like saying he will never measure up. Don’t tell me the PUMAs are right wing or Geraldine Ferraro was a hard core Bible carying right winger. There is racism in the left but it’s not as overt of prevalent as it’s in the right.
rs
@JD Rhoades: And I can’t imagine anything different happening at any of the “liberal” sites I wander in and out of, including this one, Digby, Glenn Greenwald, Orcinus, 538, or moving further left, A Tiny Revolution or Empire Burlesque. That’s a pretty fair representation of “liberal” blogs.
I don’t hear it on tv or radio, from Keith Olberman or Rachel Maddow or Thom Hartmann, who I watch or listen to once or twice a week. I don’t hear it from Amy Goodman, who I listen to daily.
The white people I socialize or work with or am family to, with the exception of those who are obviously rightwing/racist (which have been synonymous terms in all places at all times), don’t.
Where is it “common place”?
Anya
@rs: I guess you have not read Lisa Solod Warren: Two Black Role Models Done In By Hubris. It was posted at Huffington Post. I will not link to it because I refuse to give HuffPo any clicks after that stupid article and the one pychoanalysing the President.
@rs: I am a product of white and black, so don’t tell me what’s possible and not possible in White liberal circles. My mother is from a white affluent liberal family and my dad is from North East Africa.
rs
@Anya:Okay, so you don’t want to google or spend your time searching for evidence that supports your assertion, one that I obviously contend is bullshit. I should spend my time?
And PUMAs (what the fuck does that mean?) or Geraldine Ferraro may not be what we in America call right-wing, but they sure as hell aren’t progressive, and in most of the saner parts of the world they’d be considered conservative.
rs
@Anya: You’re correct, I haven’t read that article. I won’t click either, to honor your boycott. I’ll take it on faith that it’s an example of what you say.
That makes one “common place” occurrence.
Two counting some comments buried in a Daily Kos thread.
Anya
@rs: I did not say it’s “common place”. I said some comments have racial undertone. I do not believe nor would I imply that racism is prevalent in the progressive community, I however believe that some of the strong opposition to Obama is coming from corners who did not think he was good enough. Granted that is a very very small corner but it’s very loud.
JD Rhoades
@Anya:
What do you mean “you people”? :-) .
I tell you, it scares me sometimes how prescient I am. Wish I was this good at picking horses or stocks.
Oh, an OVERTONE. Well, guess you can’t argue with that.
pillsy
You know, even taking the most charitable possible take on Nader’s run—that it had nothing to do with Gore’s loss to Bush—it made Nader, the Green Party and the cause of third parties in general all radioactive for people who are left of center. The nicest thing you can say about it is that it was profoundly counterproductive when judged on how well it achieved just its stated goals.
Also, his fundamental argument about the similarity between the two major parties was as wrong as a really, really wrong thing. That level of wrongness should blow a huge smoking hole in your credibility.
ad hominahomina
Funny how everybody’s all hung up on the naughty word Ralph said and what a nasty man he is and meanwhile Obama sold you out to the telcos, and then to the banks, and then to the non-bank holding companies, and then to the foreign universal banks, and then to the drug companies, and then to the insurers but it’s all about mean & nasty Ralph while you get fucked and fucked. Dupes.
Anya
@If it makes you feel good, go ahead call me a troll and deny that any racism whatsoever can exist, except in the far edges of right wing nuts who throw around the “N” word.
ad hominahomina
Hey, Gore won Florida. The c#nt just folded when shouty people yelled at him to quit. So next time, when I vote for Nader again, or for any Green shaved ape as long as he won’t sell me out to every corporation on earth, how about you just count the fucking votes for a change?
rs
@Anya: Actually, you wrote “many” comments have a racial undertone. That’s consistent enough with the premise that it’s “common place” for white liberals to resort to racial pejoratives advanced in the original comment. You seemed to have joined the defense of that premise.@Anya: No one denied that racism can exist on the left.
rs
@pillsy: Yeah, Nader’s fundamentally wrong about the similarities between the two parties, as can be readily observed by the Democrats differences with the Republicans over the past couple decades pertaining to corporate globalization, military adventurism, financial and telecommunication deregulation, wiretapping, torture and rendition, and presidential power
pillsy
@rs:
I recall all those arguments with Libertarians that I’ve had over the years. “Yeah, man. Both parties are the same! They both want the government to control you, man!”
Since I expect this line of conversation would be no more productive, feel free to have the last word.
rs
@pillsy: Thanks, don’t mind if I do.
Yes, I am libertarian on social and cultural issues, which I’m glad you brought up. To that list of similarities between the two parties you can add the “war” on drugs that started eroding civil liberties in the US prior to the “war” on terrorism, and the exploding prison population and disenfranchisement of black male voters that’s resulted.
However, I lean socialist on economic issues, and from here on the left (the real left) it would be hard to squeeze a dime between the two parties. Although if you tried, Goldman Sachs would be working on a way to grab it.
By the way, “same” is your word, not mine.
eemom
just for the fucking RECORD, I never would have voted for Nader if I lived in a swing state.
Sheesh.
Mike in NC
“God bless us every one” – Tiny Tim
Joel
Ralph wants another ride in the clown car.
Uncle Clarence Thomas
Ralph was actually talking about me.
And I don’t think using a reference to a type of groveling, humiliatingly subservient sellout behavior of Black people to white people when describing the actions of a groveling, humiliatingly subservient Black person [sic] such as Obama, or myself, is “racist” in the slightest degree.
The important thing is for all loyal Obama supporters within the reach of this post to ignore Ralph’s correct political analysis and proceed directly to their regularly scheduled 5-minute “I Can’t Hear You Ralph” hate period.
UCT
Elie
@eemom:
Relax grilfriend.
You are being brought into the hive.
Its all good…
Joel
@eemom: That reminds me of Nader’s interview with Ali G.
Joel
@liberal: I don’t know, CAT has risen over 100% this year. Any justification for that?
Jay Schiavone
Uh… so it’s not okay to call Obama a sellout?
ds
One thing I’m wondering is how many kill-billers were Naderites.
Killing the Senate bill in order to advance health care reform is a brilliant political strategy on the same level as voting against Gore to advance liberalism.
ds
One thing I’m wondering is how many kill-billers were Naderites.
Killing the Senate bill in order to advance health care reform is a brilliant political strategy on the same level as voting against Gore to advance liberalism.
simonee
You know– I hated Nader, too. In the aftermath of the 2000 election, he seemed to be amused of the prospect that his candidacy had such a large impact on the outcome. His smugness was really jarring.
But really, the “Ralph Nader threw the election” narrative was more of a media-driven meme rather than an actual occurrence. I did read a poll somewhere a long time ago that showed that had Nader not been on the ballot, those voters would have simply ended up staying home. His candidacy motivated a small sliver of the population to go to the polls that wouldn’t have otherwise.
Al Gore should have ran a better campaign. Nader is free to do and say whatever he wants, but the idea that he bears sole responsibility for Bush’s presidency is kind of unreasonable. Nader has become unhinged, to be sure, but that’s why we should just ignore him and concentrate on the good things he has done like expose corporate practices (especially in the automobile industry), and the consumer protections he was single-handedly able to achieve.
BTW, glad Laura Nader got a shout out up top. She is an excellent professor. I took two classes with her before I graduated earlier this year and I’m thankful that I did.