Love, your love, Just shouldn’t be thrown away. I will be there, I will be there:
McCain appears to shift on ‘don’t ask, don’t tell’
By Michael D. Shear- Wednesday, February 3, 2010; A09
Three years ago, Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) was pretty clear about his stand on the military’s “don’t ask, don’t tell” policy.
A former war hero, McCain said he would support ending the ban once the military’s top brass told him that they agreed with the change.
That day arrived Tuesday, with Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates and Joint Chiefs Chairman Mike Mullen testifying to senators after President Obama’s announcement that he would seek a congressional repeal of the 15-year-old policy. Mullen called repealing the policy, which bans openly gay men and lesbians from serving, “the right thing to do” and said he was personally troubled by effectively forcing service members to “lie about who they are in order to defend their fellow citizens.”
Gates told the Armed Services Committee, “I fully support the president’s decision.”
In response, McCain declared himself “disappointed” in the testimony. “At this moment of immense hardship for our armed services, we should not be seeking to overturn the ‘don’t ask, don’t tell’ policy,” he said bluntly, before describing it as “imperfect but effective.”
You just gotta love the Kaplan Test Prep Daily and the incessant McCain worship in our media. Why, yes, Mr. Shear, it does “appear” that he has “shifted” on DADT. In much the same way that the sun “appears” to rise in the east, and that John Edwards “appears” to have cheated on his wife, and so on.
Can you imagine for one second if this were Al Gore or John Kerry who had done the complete and total about face on an issue? There would be no such mincing of words about “appearing” to “shift” positions, they would be labeled wishy-washy and unfit to lead and flip-floppers.
Plus, Al Gore is fat. Also, too.
Jude
But the sun does “appear” to rise in the east. It’s the earth’s rotation on its axis that makes the sun seem to move.
Ha! Suck on that, libs! Also, it’s Rahm’s fault.
/snark
dmsilev
Notice that McCain doesn’t actually give any reason for opposing the policy change, beyond “I think it will be bad”. Evidence, logic, listening to testimony, all irrelevant.
All that matters to him now is (a) Obama beat him for President and he’s bitter, and (b) he’s got a nasty primary fight coming and is in base suck-up mode. That (a) and (b) work in concert is just a bonus.
-dms
Ash
McCain’s people tried to explain it away by saying Mullen only speaks for himself and that Gates is a mouthpiece for Obama, that neither of them really truly represent the “leadership of the military.”
It appears that his staff is going senile too.
Ted the Slacker
MoDo today:
[McCain] who has always been known for honor and clarity…
Normally I’d say, yep, nice biting commentary Mz Dowd. But such is the genuine media McCaincrush that I’m not sure here… snark or not? Anyone?
Ash Can
Hell, I’m pleasantly surprised that the WaPo mentioned this at all.
burnspbesq
And lest we forget, the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals is full of crackpot liberals.
http://my.earthlink.net/article/us?guid=20100203/37476553-258c-4d3f-8690-34be3be48e9f
Kryptik
Why does Obama want to repeal DADT in a recession?! Doesn’t he know the effect that’d have on the military! There’d be mass washouts all over the place, and those soldiers can’t afford to leave the military because of their families! Why does Obama hate poor soldiers?!
(Oh, goddammit, I went for snark again and ended up posting a wingnut argument verbatim. Why does reality have to suck so goddamn much?)
mr. whipple
Obama on Cspan 2 at 10 am est at the Democratic Senate retreat.
burnspbesq
@Ash:
Wait a sec: did they really say that the views of the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff don’t truly reflect the leadership of the military?
That puts them squarely in the “too stupid to live” category.
jrg
John McCain is 900 years old. What difference does it make in the long run what his stance is?
He may as well milk the GOP bigotry for his own short-term goals (getting re-elected), because in a couple of years, he’ll be worm food.
At that point, the GOP will have already done an about-face, and will claim that they were fighting for gay rights the whole time… right around the time the demographic shift compels the change. There is no downside for them.
Quinn
Imperfect but effective = separate but equal
Skippy-san
McCain is not running for President now, so he can speak his mind. I realize that bothers some folks-but its what the reason is here.
People forget that McCain is a retired Captain and like a lot of retirees he might have strong feelings on the issue.
My best question would be so what? This train is leaving the station-we’ll see if it is as really uneventful as its proponents say it is.
Scruffy McSnufflepuss
If we repeal the ban on gays in the military, our military will turn out like the militaries of Sparta and Thebes. They had gays in the military, and today those nation-states no longer exist- they are ruled by a nation called Greece, whose capital is their ancient enemy, Athens.
I don’t want to see that happen in America. That is why I oppose gays in the military.
demo woman
@burnspbesq: There is some type of error with the sentence because when Clinton was President he did not catch terrorists.
Violet
I think it’s funny that McCain is being primaried by a teabagger. He’s got to oppose eliminating DADT or the teabagger will use it against him. Hilarious stuff to watch. McCain isn’t smart enough to explain away this kind of stuff.
Comrade javafascist
FWIW, McCain was better off not stating a reason for his opposition. Duncan Hunter went on NPR last night and his first rationale for opposing lifting the ban was “Hermaphrodites and Transsexuals” would be able to serve, No. Really. My 14 year old daughter, who makes fun of me yelling at the radio, actually said out loud “What the hell is he talking about?” I was proud.
thomas Levenson
@dmsilev:
This.
Also: McCain has been a parody of a legislator/leader for his entire career. His is a completely post-modern resume; he is considered, honorable, worthy, hell–even intellectually capable of running a 7-11 — because he says so, and enough people with big megaphones repeat.
That he (or his spouse/funder) is rich as Croesus and that he carries water for/comforts the comforted in the never-ending struggle with the afflicted are, of course, necessary features, not bugs.
Bad Horse's Filly
John, there is some prime snark in your posts this week. Totally loving it. And everytime McCain/Palin open their respective mouths I am reminded of how close we came.
Zifnab
The difference between John McCain and John Kerry is that John McCain took a very popular but impractical support for gay rights back when no legislation was on the table and he had absolutely no influence on DADT. But now that he has the opportunity to affect change, he has wisely switched to a more acceptable – abet less populist – conservative stance.
Meanwhile, John Kerry originally supported a necessary war only because of the blind panic generated by 9/11. After the air had cooled and Kerry had a chance to review the proposed legislation, he did the unpatriotic thing and scrapped his support for ideological and “practical” reasons, turning on what was a just and necessary war against a merciless foreign dictator, all to gin up some grass roots demagoguery. And thank god he failed.
So, in that sense, they’re two very different people. McCain is supporting the stereotypical “average American” view that the Washington media currently envisions exists. John Kerry is not.
GregB
Burns,
I notice that the flaming liberal-appeaser-soft-on-crime judge was appointed by noted hippie and ACLU fanboy Ronald Reagan.
-G
Alex S.
It appears that John McCain was a POW.
Ash
@burnspbesq: This is from the same WaPo article, John just didn’t post this part
t jasper parnell
Granted this is from a non-crazy who actually knows something about something; however, it does appear that McCain doesn’t know what he is talking about.
slag
What mr. whipple said. Link: http://cspan.org/Watch/C-SPAN2.aspx.
Dan Robinson
The media has such a man crush on McCain, they don’t realize that it takes a roto-rooter to manscape him.
scav
@Comrade javafascist: Yup, the dreaded and hard to spell hermaphrodites and transgendereds are coming!! Yeah, that comment is right up there with my still-favorite rationale of it opening the door to alcohol, adultery and tattoos. Umm, have these people ever reliably been able to distinguish their plastic soldiers from the actual fighting forces, even now, let alone from when there was a draft? Their sainted eyebrows would pop to the stratosphere if they ever figured out the predilections of bears.
Face
Kaplan Test Prep Daily? Must you copy every Duncan Black euphanism? Got nothing original, eh?
Morbo
That’s right; the only real military leaders are Petraeus and McChrystal. Gates is just part of the civilian leadership. Mullen was in the Navy, and you know what they say in the Navy.
Max
Obama is telling the Dem Senate to “finish the job on healthcare” and reminds them why they got into office.
Andy
Skippy-san wrote
He’s not running for president, but he is being primaried by a far-right, teabagging talk-radio host. That undoubtedly has a lot to do with his statement yesterday. Shorter version: he’s not a “maverick,” just some mediocre pol trying to keep his seat.
Andrew Exum addressed this succinctly yesterday:
I’m pretty sure John McCain was a retired captain in 2006, too, when he actually held a rational position on the issue. The issue here is not that he’s opposed to removing DADT, but that he explicitly said, not so long ago, that he was open to re-evaluating the policy when the military leadership said it was time to do so. That happened yesterday, and Senator McCain clearly lost the courage of his convictions — if he ever had them.
Can we get some video of McCain windsurfing, please?
I honestly don’t think the personal discomfort of a retired officer whose last line assignment was over thirty years ago, is particularly relevant. Or, for that matter, the personal discomfort of senior, active-duty officers now. Almost every other Western European military — and Israel’s — has gone through this process with minimal disruption or loss of troops. It’s a straw man, frankly, and does a real disservice to our military. You give our military — from Secretary Gates on down — too little credit.
Hari
I like the term “former war hero”. Once a war hero, aren’t you always a war hero? Is the Post dissing McCain?
JGabriel
Reposted. Don’t release from moderation.
Ash Can
@Max: I was thinking more that he was telling them to grow a pair, already, but yes. This. :)
JGabriel
Please explain to me again why anyone gives a fuck what John McCain thinks and why McCain isn’t instead doing Vee-agra commercials like the last Republican who lost a presidential election, aside from the “ick factor” which, let’s face it, never stopped Bob Dole.
And, suddenly, I’m rethinking the word choice of “let’s face it” …
.
burnspbesq
@Face:
Got a problem with factual accuracy? If not for the profits earned by Kaplan, WaPo would have cratered long ago. Go read a 10-K.
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
@Face: Must you come in and whine about a phrase that Doug has been using for quite a while now? I mean, what’s the point?
Max
@Ash Can: I did like when he reminded them they had the 2nd largest majority in history.
SRW1
Notice that McCain doesn’t actually give any reason for opposing the policy change, beyond “I think it will be bad”.
Glad you asked. John’s opposition is based on a heartfelt principle: Obama’s for it and Cindy’s for it. That’s why he’s against it.
AWS
Shear didn’t write the headline, most likely. The anonymous headline writer should be blamed.
The Moar You Know
McCain will be dead in a few years, at most. Who cares what he thinks?
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
@Max:
I understand what Obama is trying to say in plain English, but that could be misinterpreted after it is tranlated into Senatoreese, i.e.:
“Finish the job” = What the Roman Senate did with Julius Ceasar.
“Why they got into office” = $$$, hookers ‘n blow
Maybe Obama needs to tell them what to do more directly: pass a bill that helps the average American, despite the reasons why they got into office. “World’s Greatest Deliberative Body” = Biggest pack of overpaid, underworked WATBs and borderline traitorous scum in the nation. It’s all in how you translate.
Edit: Add Bloviating Bags of Botulism to the description above. And since you ask, no, this isn’t how I really feel about the Senate. This is the mild version.
Max
The Prez is raising his voice. He’s getting pissed folks. Blanche Lincoln may have brought out “The Rock” Obama.
JGabriel
MoDo:
Isn’t he adorable?
Come here, Saxby, we have some bad news to share with you …
.
J.A.F. Rusty Shackleford
If McCain loses his primary will he end up running in the general election as an independent?
I’m going to go register every variation of the “Arizona for McCain Party” and see if I can get a payout from his wife.
slag
Blanche Lincoln…what an ass! Hearing Obama smack her down makes me very happy. And very reassured that our biggest problem is the Senate.
However, it’s disheartening insomuch as the Senate is a problem that seems almost impossible to solve.
ajr22
McCain is old!! Should’ve been out of the game years ago but he can’t stay home because he hates his wife! You’ve met her at the Christmas parties. She’s the one that gets plastered and calls him a retard.
canuckistani
In 20 years time, they’ll be claiming Dan Savage was a Republican.
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
@JGabriel:
Rachel M. mentioned that part on her show last night. She was sitting in the gallery of the Senate hearing room at the time Chambliss expressed his fear of ‘tats in the military, and said she heard somebody sitting behind her audibly snort coffee out of their nose at that point.
Seanly
We have to impeach President McCain for this most egregious flip-flop. Won’t someone think of the children?
Mike E
@Violet:
Funnier still, will be the moment he gets caught on camera yelling at them to get off his lawn. Heads will ‘splode.
GambitRF
Yeah but Saxby Chambliss tells me that repealing DADT will lead to alcohol and tattoos. I mean, can you possibly imagine that in the military?!
http://bit.ly/acsffO
Kryptik
Who here wants to bet that the media will end up only giving testimonials from soldiers who are afraid of the military becoming an extension of Project Runway (despite many, many polls noting little problem from the majority of enlisted), now that the sainted bipartisan good ol’ folks in Washington like McCain have come out against repealing DADT?
My gut is that the issue is gonna get tea partied, with Bachmann and folk coming onto Fox News to worry about sudden mandatory homosexuality in the barracks.
Napoleon
@slag:
How did he smake her down?
mcd410x
@GambitRF: The GOP has less than nothing … less. And still too often the Democrats cower.
JGabriel
Reposted — forgot to misspell socilaist. Don’t release from moderation.
.
JGabriel
Will Obama speak at the Senate retreat for each of the other two parties, Connecticut for Lieberman and the Democratic SociaIist Party of Vermont (or whatever party line ballot Sanders is running on these days)?
Because I’d really like to see those speeches and Q&A’s.
.
jenniebee
Looks like they missed entirely the best part of McCain’s comment, where he accused the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of “bias” for having formed his opinion of what was best for the military without considering the opinion of Congress on the matter.
And by Congress, of course, he means the Congressional Minority.
And they call Obama arrogant.
Michael D.
I’ve always had an issue with the right’s assertion that recruitment will decline if gays are allowed to serve openly.
It’s as if they have never heard of our legendary recruiting abilities or something.
Mike E
Ha–Omentum said about China on solar panels: “They’re gonna lap us, but they’re not a democracy, they have no fillibuster rule.” Teabaggers worst soshalysm fears confirmed.
slag
@Napoleon: She wanted to “work with Republicans” and “stand up to members of our own party” who are being “too extreme”. He said that Republican policies are to blame for stagnant middle class incomes and that we can’t keep doing the same thing and expecting a different result.
gwangung
So..is the progressive response going to be “just sit there and not do anything to counter it”?
JGabriel
@Michael D.: Zing! Nicely played, Michael.
.
Mike E
Now Evan Bayh just put on his Droopy mask, grabbed a hippy and punched her in the ovaries. Heh, indeed.
Very Reverend Crimson Fire of Compassion
OT, but . . .OMFG! Tha White House finally begins (please, God, let it be a beginning) to push back against the “liberal” media!
Andy
Kryptik wrote:
That’s not the half of it — that’s only the first step toward imposing government-run health care on our fighting men and women. Can a government takeover of the entire military be far behind?
demo woman
I don’t have cable, did Fox News air the President speaking to the democratic party?
Michael
OT, but here’s another fine episode of Hee Haw….
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2443459/posts
Ray LaHood suggests to not drive your unsafe, recalled Toyotas until they’re repaired. Goobers scream about the assault on “freedom” and confabulate it all as a plot by the Government to shatter Toyota.
I fucking hate those people. They can’t bring on the death panels soon enough.
Surly Duff
Maybe he rewatched Top Gun, found some of the obvious undercurrents that he had not seen before and decided to change his position. This should provide all the proof anyone needs: Top Gun And you know what happened as a result of this romantic dalliance between Maverick and Iceman? Goose died. Try to refute that evidence!
Kryptik
@gwangung:
I hope not. My worry is moreso Democrats in general not doing anything to counter it (especially those nitwits who consider McCain their colleague).
Mike E
Elvis has left the building. The crank calls begin.
The repeat airs on CSPAN2 at 8pm.
BR
Colin Powell just backed Mullen/Gates on DADT:
http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2010/02/03/2193041.aspx
Powell was who McCain specifically cited.
Napoleon
@slag:
Good for him. Stuff like that needs to be said.
slag
@Mike E: I loved the guy who proposed we give consumers more money to spend by taking the money we gave to the banks and using it to pay down the deficit. That’s the kind of economic thinking we just don’t hear enough of. And that guy claimed to be a business owner!
suzanne
@Andy:
I personally don’t give a flying fuck in a rolling doughnut about anyone’s personal discomfort at any level. That’s why being in the military is a job, not a trip to Club Med. The arguments inevitably boil down to “queers are icky”, and silly me, I just don’t think that’s a compelling enough reason to deny roughly 10% of the U.S. population their civil rights.
There’s also so much sexism in the anti-gay arguments. Women in the military have had to endure all the crap the anti-gays are absolutely convinced will happen to them for years, and yet rape goes unpunished, and male-on-female harassment and assault continue. It’s complete horseshit, but that’s the fear.
Roger Moore
@Morbo:
They say that John McCain never listened to Admirals while he was in the Navy, so there’s no reason to expect him to do so now.
Morbo
@Michael D.: Truly, I mean, think of what a boon to recruitment it would be if those lesbian gangs which roam the Atlantic coast turned their attention from turning straight women gay to recruiting for the military. Enlistment would skyrocket.
gwangung
@Kryptik: My take is that if that’s the fear, war game it out. Figure out the probable and most effective responses NOW and get ready to implement. And I mean you and me…start the planning now and get the meme out there now, so that the grassroots aren’t fumbling for a response when it happens.
Maybe you and I can’t organize (though people are more capable of that than they realize), but we can certainly figure out good responses and have that ready, and indicate it to others when it happens.
Teabaggers want to march? Bring in Dan Choi. Or ask the teabaggers how many of THEM served. Or get current military to say how irrelevant it is to them.
Mike E
@slag: Judd Gregg sez, “Nooooo!!”
You’ll have to excuse me, I have to call in now about the Feds rounding up us ordinary Merkuns to do forced labor in their FEMA camps.
DougL (frmrly: Conservatively Liberal)
@Michael:
Never mind that these Amurika luvin’ morans are defending Toyota being slow on the fix and accusing the Obama administration of wanting to destroy Toyota to assist “Government Motors”. These people aren’t even half-wits, they’re total fucking dumbshits. All they can do is hate the ‘other’, whatever the fuck it is. Anything that doesn’t have their stamp of approval is wrong and bad, end of story. They don’t want to coexist with people who are not like them, being ‘different’ is bad.
They are blind, stupid hate looking for a place to happen.
scav
@suzanne:
I did always enjoy the underlying rationale that your average Marine had less cojones than any reasonably attractive blond walking past a construction site. “ooooh!! he’s looking at me!!”
Kryptik
@suzanne:
Don’t forget the ridiculousness of depleting a ridiculously significant number of our translation corps, while we were busy fighting two ‘wars’ in foreign countries, just because most of those translators ended up being gay. Especially since the lack of viable translators was noted…and then what translators that were left were STILL being discharged for having ‘teh gay’.
John Cole
@Face: What is wrong with using terms Atrios has coined? He is right, and it fits. Why is that a problem?
PTirebiter
@Hari:
McCain was a war hero?
Mike E
@John Cole: Uh oh, somebody has on their McCranky pants.
Face is all jealous ’cause he thinks he can run this joint better, seeing that he’s been blogging medicated and one-handed for years.
ChrisB
@BR: Just kills McCain’s argument. Not that he had a leg to stand on anyway.
moe99
@burnspbesq: You probably know this, but the Federal District Judge the 9th Cir reversed, John Coughenour, is a Reagan appointee.
Sorry, GregB–missed your comment originally.
suzanne
@scav:
Seriously. It boils down to “I DON’T WANT SOMEONE I’M NOT INTO HITTING ON ME! I want to do the hitting on, because I am en-cock-er-fulled!”
If that were my criterion for my behavior in the public sphere, I would not be able to leave my house. Yet, somehow, despite all odds, I carry on.
Mike E
@suzanne: Well, you have to admit that Shouty’s two faces look pretty dashing in those Navy whites.
Ash
Ok, serious question, why ARE so many translators gay?
Randy P
@Ash: About 10%. Is that “so many” or does it reflect the general population?
ruemara
@ Ash
Language is an art and teh ghey has +10 to your artistickal stats. Says so in the rule book.
FlipYrWhig
Is it possible that one day conservatives might learn that there is in fact a difference between “gay” and “girlish”? They clearly think everyone who is gay is a screaming queen, or would be if they weren’t trying desperately to conceal their terrible, terrible shame. I guess it goes along with thinking that their own gelatinous selves are so irreproachably masculine.
JGabriel
ruemara:
Dungeons & Strap-ons?
.
ruemara
@JGabriel:
Sounds like a Pride In Gaming Event. I would attend.
shortstop
Because gays love terrorists and want to be able to chat with them after they turn the greatest military force in the world into a giant bathhouse with compulsive participation. This is outside their regular gay recruitment duties, of course. They’re busy people, but we all know their organizational skills are as sharp as their decorating sense.
Seriously, I’ve wondered whether there really is a slightly higher proportion or whether they’re just getting more attention because we’re so short of Arabic linguists. No idea what the answer is, but Randy P’s probably right — it’s likely the same as the general pop.
But I still think an element of McCain’s latest crap, beyond his reflexive contrariness to anything Obama does and his need to suck up to his state’s ‘bagger brigade, is his wanting to smack down his gay-loving wife. I see no reason to think that the spite he amply demonstrates toward virtually everyone who has the gall to disagree with him in public would not extend to his wife. The guy is, among his numerous other character faults, a raging control freak.
WereBear
@JGabriel: Hmmm.
For not the first time, I am struck with how much they rely on external controls to keep their Id from rampaging through society like a frat kid on crack.
This is the “man standing over you with a big stick” school of motivation.
Pangloss
This is EXACTLY the kind of Mavericky maverickness that so many Republicans voted for in 2008.
Ash
@Randy P: Well I mean “so many” in the sense that people almost always bring up the fact that of the discharged many of them are translators and linguists.
Comrade Kevin
Damnit, Cole, now I have that horrible Scorpions song stuck in my head.
scav
@Ash: Why bring up your fingernail biting when you’re sticking a fork in your eyes at the same time?
TRANSLATION: reporting bias added to importance bias.
Cathy W
@Ash: The discharged translators and linguists have a bit of a resonance to their cases – their skills are rare and vital, and we can’t simply stick a randomly-selected new recruit into their slot. I would assume people with other specialties are getting discharged at a similar rate, but since they’re generally easier to replace it’s harder to use them as an example of DADT actually serving to weaken the military.
lol
From the same author, an article about how the anti-lobbyist McCain is almost entirely advised by lobbyists. Seems like a good article overall but Shear still ends up saying crap like this…
Essentially, McCain is a massive hypocrite but Clinton is advised by two lobbyists and Obama is advised by someone who is not a lobbyist so both sides are equally bad. Also.
AxelFoley
@jrg:
“When nine hundred years old you reach, look as good, you will not, hm?”
–Yoda
Skippy-san
@74 suzanne
There’s a way to get the doubters on board-tell them it will be like the intergration of women into squadrons and ships.
Not!
This is not about getting along together. Its about whether these folks will really be treated “the same”. Knowing the military, they will create a new class of preferred customers just like what happened with women.
Will there be “GAY” stamps on service records to ensure that the right percentage of gays are promoted to ensure “diversity”?
Will public affairs officers slobber all over themselves printing press releases touting the “first openly gay Commanding Officer”?
Will there be enlistment quotas and targets to ensure a “critical mass” of gay troops?
And when will we have to start observing Gay History Month?
If you want it to be like the integration of women-that is what will happen. Heterosexual white males will have one more strike against them.
If you can assure me that none of those things are going to happen-you’ll get a lot more folks on board.
suzanne
@Skippy-san:
***playing the world’s smallest violin for all those heterosexual white males and all the institutionalized discrimination they face***
mcc
Actually, this was something I’ve been wondering about! Currently transgender and intersex individuals are not effected either way by DADT, but are nevertheless barred from the armed forces; intersexed persons are considered medically unqualified, whereas transsexualism is considered a psychological condition that makes one unfit for service. (The specific military regulation that covers this is worded in an unusually archaic and nasty way, simply listing transsexualism in a longer list of “paraphilias”.) I had been wondering if the move toward finally allowing homosexuals in the military at any point provides an opportunity to question the separate policy keeping out the transgendered; so far though Hunter is the first person I’ve seen bring the idea up.
Kind of fascinating that this was the first thing that came to Duncan Hunter’s mind, though– his biggest concern with reducing discrimination against a group[ is that it might impact his future ability to discriminate against another, even more hated group.