No matter where you stand politically, the news that the US operates a Gulag Archipelagosecret network of eastern European torture sites should be extremely disturbing. You can defend the government on the basis that the stories might not be true, or exaggerated, but you simply can’t defend that sort of behavior, if true, by a country that claims to champion the cause of liberty. Confirming what most of us already knew, it turns out that even the practical argument for torture is bogus; people will spin any ridiculous tale in order to make the pain stop. The only possible defense now is to argue that we don’t do it.
We already know that Frist cares deeply enough about these stories to launch a leak investigation. But does he care about the allegations themselves? Apparently not.
Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist says he is more concerned about the leak of information regarding secret CIA detention centers than activity in the prisons themselves.
Frist told reporters Thursday that while he believed illegal activity should not take place at detention centers, he believes the leak itself poses a greater threat to national security and is “not concerned about what goes on” behind the prison walls. […]
Frist was asked if that meant he was not concerned about investigating what goes on in detention centers.
“I am not concerned about what goes on and I’m not going to comment about the nature of that,” Frist replied.
We all understand that Frist got his job because he scored highest on the loyalty-to-Bush test, and that this story will do nothing but harm to an already-radioactive president. Frist has to at least try to keep this story muzzzled, but why not use the usual channels? Have Pat Roberts promise an investigation, put some half-assed FBI team on it and let it disappear into the aether. That’s how they kept a lid on the “16 words” forgery story for going on three years now. In the meantime some convenient hate-magnet might appear, a la Dan Rather or Joe Wilson, giving the right a chance to bury the entire story in cynical invective.
With the tools of a majority party at your disposal, what’s the point of declaring outright that you don’t care? He just gave up the moral high ground without a fight. Judging by recent events, Reid’s fighting Dems will make good use of it.
***Update***
Some complaints have arisen about the term ‘Gulag Archipelago.’ That is appropriate in the sense that we haven’t imprisoned millions of people. We don’t in fact know much of what happens there, but it strains credulity to think that we treat secret prisoners, lifetime guests as far as anybody knows, better than we do inmates in a public prison in the suburbs of Baghdad.
Two things to think about. First, keep in mind that we don’t just pick up “terrorists” in our sweeps. We pick up terrorists, people whose name sound like terrorists and the terrorist-adjacent. Do they all deserve torture and death? Banishment from their families without access to any legal recourse? Second, if these sites are so top-secret, and if they operate outside any known law, then it’s hard to imagine that they have a very lenient release policy. What’s to keep Shaloub the innocent shopkeeper from telling everybody about the town in Romania (or wherever) where he spent the last year? Seems safer to keep him at least until somebody decides to de-classify the program.
I can think of any number of reactions to this story. Unconcern is pretty close to the last of them.
Davebo
John was right. Worst Majority Leader ever.
But honestly, it’s hard to see how his statements could in anyway help Bush.
Mr Furious
What’s funny, is that as that story came out, I was so incensed by the fact that the actual black sites was not to be part of any investigation that I actually missed the fact that it was such a political blunder.
Mike S
If they held a woman who was in a “persistant vegatative state” maybe he’d care then.
guyermo
Mike S,
They’re secret sites. How do we know they’re not?
on another note: Frist is to Senate Majority Leaders as James Buchanan is to Presidents.
cd6
We’ve turned the corner on claiming the moral high ground
Dodd
Which 16 words story have they kept a lid on? The fact that every one of the 16 words were true, that they were not based on any forged documents (because we didn’t have those documents yet), that three separate reports have confirmed as much, and that Joe Wilson is a liar?* I confess, I’ve wondered why they’ve kept such a tight lid on that one myself.
* The Butler report states that “[t]he forged documents were not available to the British government at the time its assessment [upon which President Bush’s 16 words were based] was made, and so the fact of the forgery does not undermine [that assessment].”
Cyrus
OK, “turning the corner” jokes have been old for a while, but at least this one combines it with another almost-meaningless phrase from the buildup to the war, so…
scs
If you allow terrorist prisoners at Guantanomo, what’s the difference having secret sites for terrorist prisoners other than they are secret. They are secret presumably to protect the sites from any terrorist attacks. Why all the sudden shock and outrage? Where else do you think we’ve been holding terrorists?
scs
Tim, you’re linking of a story about the debate over prisons for terrorists to Frist being the worst majority leader ever betrays your partisan nature – which translates into lack of objectivity. How is Frist’s strong concern about leaking info, that contrary to Plame, puts US personnel in very serious positions of possible terrorist attacks, and less concern for terrorists, make him the worst ever? That’s just stretching it. If a dozen US soldiers die in a suicide bombing at one of those prisons, I wonder if you will realize then that such a leak was a serious offense.
Zifnab
The joke in all this is that these allegations will never do as much damage in the hands of Democrats as they would have in the hands of Republicans. More importantly, it seems that pornography, homosexuality, steroids in sports, and vegetative states seem to hold more water than the brutal abuse of US captives. Where the hell are our morals? I just don’t understand anymore how people can be so fucking blind and so fucking stupid. *sigh*
Even in all this, the slim will continue to run our government and there’s nothing we can do to stop it. Life sucks.
scs
Sorry, but I think most Americans have little sympathy for suicide bombers. While we want as much openness and decency as we can at those prisons, it is not out highest priority – saving American lives are.
John Cole
Not even wading into the 16 words bit, and I would caution calling it a Gulag Archipelago, as we really don’t know the extent to what is going on, and it is certainly not of the same scale (hardly much of a defense, but it is still unnecessary to exxagerate the situation), but the fact that he doesn’t even give a shit is rather bothersome.
John Cole
How do you torture a suicide bomber?
[/snark]
scs
Hey at least he’s telling it like he feels, not hiding it with some phony statements of concern. You all want honesty in government right?
Boombo
Take away their 70 virgins until they promise to play nicely with others.
scs
Potential suicide bombers, sorry. Thanks for making me more precise always.
Tim F.
Who made the forgeries, and under whose orders? Obviously, you don’t know. Why is that?
John S.
Spare us your rigtheous indignation, scs. Tim is not a journalist. John Cole is not a journalist. Neither of them claims to be (or ever has as far as I know). If either of them ever did profess such a thing, then you may have a leg to stand on, but to decry bloggers as being partisan and lacking objectivity is absurd.
And by the way, every post you have ever made betrays your partisan nature – which translates into lack of objectivity. But seeing as how I don’t consider you a news source, I could care less.
JPS
You know, TimF, if more people knew the extent of the mass murders committed by Soviet communism, your statement “the U.S. operates a Gulag Archipelago” would be as inflammatory as “the U.S. has established a series of Konzentrationslager.”
Note that I am not defending our establishment of these camps. They may well be a reprehensible stain on our national honor. But you’ve used a term that conjures up very specific connotations of a system that froze, starved and worked people to death by the tens of millions. I’m going to have to ask you for a little more evidence that we’re doing this (no technical or terminological arguments, please) before I retract my objection.
Slide
.No, they did not have the actual documents but they received a report from Italy detailing what the forgeries purported to show. The 16 words were based on those reports which were based on those obvious and crude forgeries.
JPS
(I type slowly–John Cole beat me to it.)
scs
Well once again, I don’t consider myself a Republican, but I suppose I am when it comes specifically to the war on terror. I just think there is a slightly higher standard for the writers of the blog than posters, however – so call me crazy.
John S.
Is Tim the new Dick Durbin?
He called the CIA operatives running secret torture prisons (allegedly) Soviets!
I demand an apology for defaming our spooks like that.
scs
Haven’t followed all posting on this, but I heard the forgeries were made by a Nigerian official, for money. I heard the investigators were satisfied that that was the only reason for the forgeries. Don’t know exactly where I read that, maybe some of you can fill in details on that.
Horshu
scs: But does the slightly higher standard mean that either John or Tim should be objective? There has never even been an illusion of non-partisanship here; both bloggers are playing with their cards face up. Adhering to a higher standard might mean they keep the flame insults to a minimum or absent altogether, but at the end of the day, the blog belongs to the blogger, and we are just living in their world.
Boombo
Isn’t that the new thing? Calling the CIA a bunch of lefties who want to sink the President?
(Lefty, Democrat, Soviet, communist, all the same thing, right?)
John S.
scs-
CRAZY!
But seriously, I wish I could hold John or Tim to a higher standard (lord knows I’ve tried), but I find myself often being disappointed. I don’t appreciate generalizations coming from anybody, and I agree with Horshu that insults and personal attacks should be kept to a minimum, but as far as objectivity goes…I consider the source.
It’s a little extra work seperating the wheat from the chaff, but usually you can still find the little nugget of goodness in there somewhere (except when John starts ranting about levees or phosphorous).
=P
scs
we are just living in their world
If a tree falls in the forest… well you know the rest. I think the bloggers are also news sources for many people, especially as this blog is not known to be super partisan, they do have a little more responsbility to be more objective, or at least make it more clear when they are editorializing. Anyway, if he can say what he wants, I can at least call him out on it, can’t I?
scs
I agree, that was a fair response.
Mac Buckets
“Gulag Archipelago?” Prisoners “spinning ridiculous tales?” Kvetching about the 16 Words?
That’s a bagload of inflammatory rhetoric Tim’s got there. Throw in a Bush lied, people died, and you’ve got yourself a Kos diary.
I thought John invited Tim here to be a moderate-left voice, and what I’m discovering is that there must be no such thing. They all sound like the Seattle Protest-Marching Stoner Patrol to me.
Pug
Frist and Hastert were very concerned until it came out that John McCain is probably the leaker. Now they are doing the old Three Stooges rountine: “Slowly I turned..step by step…” as they back away.
Just what the GOP needs, hearings about why somebody leaked that we have secret prisons around the world. That would make for some really cool headlines, huh?
stickler
No, I suppose not for them, nor for the potential suicide bombers.
But how about the guys we picked up by mistake? Or are you under the impression that we have no innocent prisoners in these secret Not-Gulags! that we’re running?
We’re in a global struggle of ideas and we’re losing it by running Not-Gulags! and by a thousand other mistakes. Remember who’s in charge of our efforts here: the same team that, between 2001 and 2003, managed to lose a global public relations war against Saddam Hussein.
Rocky Smith
I would be concerned about what goes on at these “Black Sites” if it proves to be torturous treatment of these poor misguided Muslims (whom would happily blow up your wife and kids right in front of you) but I am definitely concerned about leakers of classified information. Whomever did it should be jailed for a long time. If they had leaked the name of a liberal non-active CIA employee, you progressives might show more concern?
ppGaz
I think everyone is being too hard on Fristie. Allow him time to eat his dinner … he is doing a heckuva job.
Is DougJ ever coming back or do I have to fill in for him indefinitely?
Andrew J. Lazarus
No, scs. Look how many Republicans are outraged over the secret jails (if we weren’t torturing there, couldn’t we do our business in the light?). On this issue, you’re in the Sadist Party.
scs
Yes I agree, I want as fair as treatment as they can possibly get, even if they are potential suicide bombers. I just don’t want it overhyped to the exclusion of all other issues. Let’s make some rules in congress and ensure what we can for them. But it isn’t always going to be roses.
Davebo
scs
It’s easy. When not posting about Pittsburgh Steelers or West Virginia football, he’s probably editorializing.
Tim F.
That is one rumor. In fact nobody knows. The FBI had a chance to interview many of the principals in the case and passed.
Steve
What kind of half-assed CIA prison would be vulnerable to a suicide bomber? Do we just let random Arabs wander into the chow hall?
I think leaks of classified information should be taken seriously, but a lot of folks who think the Plame leak was “no harm, no foul” are awfully quick to jump to the conclusion that this leak represents a major risk to national security. Given that the WaPo article didn’t even reveal the countries where these prisons are located, there’s not a lot of tactical information being revealed. In fact, al-Qaeda might have been way ahead of the American public in assuming that we probably had facilities like this somewhere.
John S.
May I be the first to submit that I do not think this sort of delusional and stereotypical comment is representative of all the right-leaning posters around here.
Except for maybe Darrell, of course.
scs
I kind of wonder how we know for sure that they WERE forgeries. Maybe they were real and someone paid people to later say they were fake -how do we know?
scs
Well they do seem to have a knack for that. Note our suicide bombers in the Iraqi Green Zone.
John S.
Rocky-
That’s a helluva post. If there were a contest called “How many GOP talking points can you tacitly put into 100 words or less?”, you win – hands down.
Mr Furious
I guess that makes you a KoolAid-Swilling Brownshirt Wingnut then.
Otto Man
There might just be a problem with your hearing, Mac Buckets. You’ve proven over and over again that every criticism of the administration sounds like “BushHitlerMcChimperor!!!!!” to you.
Mac Buckets
Delusional because you said so, John? Guess who’s playing “Bill Frist, Long-Distance Doctor,” on the internet now?
Mike S
As usual the conversation turns from the topic to the semantics of the topic.
The fact that we may have converted gulags to our own prisons isn’t as important as calling them gulags. “How dare you call that gulag a gulag! You must hate America.”
Why anyone would be surprised that Frist has no concern for these prisons is beyond me. All you need to do is look at the way the comments on these things goes. People are more concerned with what they are called than what they are from and for.
Zifnab
hehe. McChimperor. Awesome.
srv
I blame putting ID theory in schools myself.
JPS
Oh for pity’s sake, Mike S.
Find me where I accused TimF of hating America, or where I implied that he does. My objection is premised on the opposite assumption: That he does not, and might agree with me that his casual figure of speech is unfortunate.
Gratefulcub
But who was paying? i don’t care who actually created the forgery, I want to know who wanted it forged, and who wanted it in the hands of the US intelligence services.
The person or group or nation that wanted the forgery produced and spread, wanted the US at war with Iraq. I think it is important to know who that was.
Tim F.
You are right that I meant less than the term actually implies. Since it’s factually inappropriate, and distracts more than it contributes, I struck it from the story.
scs
I think the Italians paid, no? They paid some Nigerian money to get whatever info they could give them. But, again, I’m not sure about that.
Rocky Smith
I’ll take that as a huge compliment from you John S. Thanks!
Mac Buckets
That’s a big assumption. UN Resolution 1441 did not depend on yellowcake being shopped. We would’ve gone to war regardless of the forged documents, which, regardless of what “moderate-left” Tim F. wants to believe, were not the basis for the “16 Words,” according to the Butler Report and the US Senate Intelligence Committee.
Mike S
A little overly sensitive JPS? My comment was an over all comment about the nature of these debates, not anything you said in particular.
But it was an interesting reaction none the less.
Lines
There have been plenty of insinuations, and there is supposedly a senate investigation going on into the background of the Nigerian Forgeries.
Essentially, the argument comes down to: The Administration was told to leave the 16 words out because their validity was in question. DIA, CIA and other agencies all objected to their inclusion in the SOTU. Instead, the administration included it. They knew it was questionable and there was every indication it was false, and they did it anyway.
JPS
Mike S:
I figured you were addressing me as much as anyone.
If my comment addressed only semantics, that doesn’t mean I consider semantics more important than the substance TimF was trying to discuss. Perhaps–just for the sake of argument–I agree with him on this, but think that implicitly comparing the U.S. to Stalin’s USSR undermines the rest of his entirely legitimate criticism. And that it tends to discredit him among those of us who will consider carefully any criticism of our policies, but don’t much want to hear them from people who can’t tell the difference.
If I thought TimF were such a person, I wouldn’t even bother objecting.
Rocky Smith
Lines- Where in the WHite House do you work? You seem to know all the “facts” about what the WH did.
Gratefulcub
MBuckets,
Those are two different assumptions. Your point seems to be that I said: We went to war based on these forgeries.
I didn’t.
My assumption is that the party responsible for creating the forgeries, the party that came up with the idea……that party had a motive other than money. They paid someone to do it. Everyone in the world knew that we were at least cotemplating War in Iraq. Why did they create the forgeries if they didn’t want the US at war with Iraq.
scs
No I think the investigation found that the Nigerians forged it on their OWN, because they knew that would be a bombshell that Europeans would pay big bucks for, not at the direction of the Europeans. But again, how do we really know for sure.
Gratefulcub
since we are talking about Gulags, and there was a previous debate about “Is calling someone evil lazy?”
Someone that knows a thing or two about Gulags and Evil. calling someone evil is lazy.
Mike S
JPS
Fair enough. I may be a little overly sensative myself after listening to so many people make light of some of the things we have done. I just don’t find a whole lot of humor in this situation.
Gratefulcub
Is there really doubt at this point that SISMI had something to do with the forgeries. They have admitted that Martelli (sp?) was involved, and probably the forger. He says he is the scapegoat/patsy of SISMI, and that he had nothing to do with it. His dishonest history would make him a) a good candidate to be the forger, or b) a good candidate for SISMI to blame when they got caught.
It just seems that the Italians are playing a huge round of the …..wait for it…..BLAME GAME for the truth to be someone in niger did it on their own for no reason.
John S.
No, delusional because you fit the defintion (i.e. A false belief strongly held in spite of invalidating evidence).
scs
.
I suppose it will be nearly impossible to prove who did it and why at this point. Does anyone (in the public) even know what these documents actually say anyway?
Lines
Rocky: I just pay attention to what is in the news. Small snippets that get ignored later. But I already know you’ll never believe it, so I’m not going to waste anymore time on you. Find someone intellectually honest to make the request and I’ll go find links.
Gratefulcub
Why? Italian newspapers have made a ton of headway into the who over the past two weeks. Sure, they create more questions than answers, but there is no reason that this can’t be solved. We can start by opening an investigation with subpoena power. Get Hadley under oath, and have him tell exactly why he was meeting with SISMI, since it is suspected that he got the documents. I am in no way saying he did, but since that is the hottest rumor as to how they came into our possession, then start there.
If the Senate wanted to know, they could. A chain of possession is easy to track. Trace it back until someone says “I can’t recall where I got that.” Put that guy in a cell next to Scooter until he is ready to remember.
jg
Why? Whats wrong with using attention grabbing words? Aren’t there any adults on the right anymore? the right is constantly calling th eleft socialists and communists but if the left uses the word gulag in a sentence the debate must end and name calling starts? GROW THE FUCK UP. Durbin was right to use the language he used and so is Tim. the right acts like the debate would go on if the left would stop using harsh sounding words but it wouldn’t. They’d just find another way out of the argument.
GULAG GULAG GULAG. There its been said again. 3 times.
Recess is over.
scs
Well more power to them. I hope they do find out.
Defense Guy
So if I question your manhood or patriotism it’s ok, as long as I grab your attention? So I can call Kerry a traitor even though strictly speaking, it isn’t true?
The reason, IMO, that it is important to not do this kind of thing is that it detracts from the actual issue and moves the conversation into a whole new realm of make believe.
Steve S
I am offended by your use of the word network. It’s like you think this is just something someone like Cisco could put together.
It’s not. This takes real brains. It was probably outsourced to EDS or Computer Associates, who spend months building a project plan, implementation plan and testing plans.
Otto Man
If “gulag archipelago” is the wrong term, could someone offer an alternative that means “secretive state prisons that are geographically spread out and where inmates are subjected to various forms of torture”?
Lines
well, thanks to the traitors at the NYT, “Black Sites” will work instead of Gulag.
Black Sites: its no longer just a cool name for a band
jg
Ok for DG’s of the world I’ll clarify. The attention grabbing words have to be relevant. When talking about prisons its OK to say gulag because a gulag is a type of prison. Got it?
Veeshir
I will never read another post by Tim F.
The very wording of his post and the update shows that there is absolutely no reason for me to do so.
I haven’t read any comments here and won’t so don’t reply, I don’t care.
It’s not that I don’t want to be exposed to a differing viewpoint, it’s that actually debating this post on its merits would make me feel dirty.
Very dirty.
JPS
JG:
“GROW THE FUCK UP.”
“GULAG GULAG GULAG.”
I feel privileged to take lessons in maturity from you. I feel I’ve really come a long way already.
Mike S
Thank you for proving my point from upthread. The post makes you feel dirty. The fact that we have a secret network of prisons, some even alledgedly in former gulags, doesn’t seem to.
Defense Guy
And of course, in the most convenient of turns, you get to decide what is relevant. Must be nice to have such power over which topics are worthy. Should we offer you tribute or just let you know you are about to face a coup?
DougJ
Just thinking out loud here: if we revive manned space travel, we could bring terror suspects to the moon and torture them there. There’s no way the Geneva convetion applies to other planets, right?
DougJ
Or maybe we could just torture them on the space shuttle. To me that’s reason enough to keep spending billions on that program.
Otto Man
Yeah. If people here are upset about the comparisons to the Soviet gulags, maybe the first step would be to make sure that there’s no reason, no matter how remote, for such a comparison in the first place.
Step one might be having the Vice President of the United States stop lobbying for the right to torture.
No, check that. Step one would be being concerned over the existence of these places instead of the names applied to them.
Otto Man
It’s like the tagline from “Alien” — “In space, no one can hear you scream.”
Nikki
The moon’s not a planet, silly!
jcricket
Dude – I think it’s pretty obvious he was being sarcastic. Real wing-nuts don’t feel dirty (let alone very dirty) because of torture. In fact torture gives them a little chubby thinking about all the “darkies” getting beaten up.
StupidityRules
Mars, bitches!
StupidityRules
And for any innocent people held at any of these Black Sites, after being kept there they will probably hate the US so much that they probably will have to be kept there or they probably take up a short lived career as a suicide bomber.
jg
What the hell are you talking about? When did I say I determine relevance? You can’t decide for yourself if using the term ‘gulag’ is relevant when talking about prisons? Do you need someone to step in and help you decide of its the right word to use when discussing willy pete or FEMA?
Why do you act stupid just to disagree? You know what I’m talking about, it’s not complex. You made no posts until I said why is saying gulag wrong. Is that all you care about? What words are used?
Not giving lessons in maturity but I think you could use a couple of reading comprehension lessons if thats all you got from my post.
Perry Como
We don’t torture people. I think it is a fine idea to set up not-gulags on the moon and use not-torture methods of interrogation — such as waterboarding, sledgehammer handles and sodomy via chemical light — to get accurate information from terrorists.
This is a different kind of war; we must not-torture them over there so we don’t have to not-torture them over here; Joe Wilson is a liar.
p.s. – Eat Freedom Fries™.
Mike S
I don’t think so. IIRC his past comments indicate that he was serious.
jg
I took him seriously and I thinks its exactly because he doesn’t want to be exposed to differing viewpoints. At least he admits it…somewhat.
Tim F.
People, I agree with the critics that ‘Gulag’ goes too far. While it is ridiculous to argue that we’re perfectly ok because we’re not Soviet Russia, it’s also ridiculous to say that what we did compares at all with what the Soviets did. It does not.
These secret prisons demean everything America stands for, and that should be enough to shock anybody within the ideological mainstream.
jg
I thought libruls were the sensitive ones.
stickler
Good point. These secret camps we’re running on old, Soviet-era prison grounds, must have a better name than Gulag. How about Konzentrationslager? KZ, for short. We could be more efficient about the whole thing, and put the prisoners to work while they’re not being interrogated. We could put up a little sign over the front gate reminding them of the value of work, maybe. How it makes you free, or something.
Or maybe we could be more culturally diverse and call the camps Laogai. Re-education through work!
Or, and I know this is a moonbat lily-livered notion, but bear with me — we could stop running secret prisons in Eastern Europe. Then we wouldn’t have to play word-masturbation games like this.
Mike S
And I don’t have a problem with that, as I told JPL. What I do have a problem with are the people that seem to think that that is the biggest issue in the whole thing.
What they are called is not even remotely as important as the fact that they exist. But it is a typical dodge these days when someone has to either say they approve of them or they don’t.
Sojourner
Dude, you better make that inaccurate information. But then, that’s the best kind. It’s much easier to start a useless war that way.
Defense Guy
Your problem, apparently, is that you can’t determine an accurate comparison that would rise to the level of the gulags, which is why I bothered to address you at all.
At any rate, to answer your original question again, the problem with using attention grabbing words has to do with whether its a lie or not, something which has sadly escaped you. That you didn’t understand this means I wasted my time.
However, since the mark for you is so low as to be just to grab someones attention, I suppose I should be happy.
Sherard
In fact, we don’t know ANYTHING about what happens at these alleged prisons, or if, indeed, they even exist.
Defense Guy
Yes, and in an ideal world, which we do not inhabit, we could simply ask people to stop fighting against Democracy in Iraq, and also stop killing innocent human beings around the world in the name of some religous crusade. Unfortunately, in this world, it is not like that. In this world, it is sometimes required that we capture and detain and interrogate known or suspected terrorists with the aim of, oh I don’t know, stopping the murder of innocents.
You can pretend that is not our world all you want, but it won’t make it true.
Sherard
What annoys me further about this is that the CIA is generally a “secret” organization that does “secretive” things. They do not and cannot answer to the general public. They answer to the President. And yes, I’m sure they do some questionable things at times. But you know who on this earth is probably best qualified to determine when and if questionable tactics should be used. Imagine that, the CIA.
So I honestly don’t know what all the hand wringing and nasing of teeth is supposed to accomplish. The CIA will go on being the organization best suited to deciding when questionable or shady tactics should and will be used, and they will generally go on doing it in secret.
Unconcerned ? Yeah, I guess I am. If only because none of what is going on regarding the CIA is going to have even a minimal effect. And that’s not a bug, it’s a feature.
Sherard
So one last thing. Does everyone here think that before Bush came along, the CIA was a bunch of saintly Boy Scouts ? Is that what you really think ? If so, you’re goddam stupid.
Mike S
Ummmmm, don’t you think the fact that Frist, Hastert and Lott have all confirmed that they do exist makes this comment very silly?
Mike S
Just as idiotic as your other comments.
Otto Man
Right. Let’s just abandon congressional oversight and let these guys do whatever they want. It worked out so well in the ’60s.
Andrew J. Lazarus
Sherard is a fine example of what I call the 007 Principle behind the Black Sites. See, the CIA guys all get these cool double-oh numbers and they don’t have to follow any laws, just report directly to (drum roll) the President himself. On the shoe-phone I suppose.
Go buy the DVD and let us restore the American government to lawfulness.
Perry Como
It is of utmost importance that we murder innocents in order to prevent innocents from being murdered.
Steve S
If the majority of Americans are against Torture, why do some people insist torturing people is serving American interests?
DougJ
Would water boarding even work on the moon? Doesn’t the technique depend on gravity in some way?
Maybe we could hire a contractor — say Halliburton — to work on ways of water boarding terror suspects in the low gravity atmosphere of the moon.
JohnGalt
Look people, we’re establishing Democracy over there so we don’t have to maintain it here. Get with the program.
Perry Como
The moon has 1/6th the gravity of the Earth, so water boarding would work. The not-torturers would need to be extra vigilant about splashing. Mild splashes that occur in not-gulags on the Earth would be 6 times as high in the not-gulags on the moon.
There are a number of logistical issues that would need to be solved in order to set up not-gulags on the moon:
How hard is a not-torturer allowed to swing a sledghammer handle at a suspected terrorist’s body?
Will stress positions be less effective due to the decrease in gravity?
How many extra not-torturers would it take to compress a suspected terrorist’s chest in order to induce suffocation?
Besides the incredibly accurate information gained by not-torturing suspected terrorists, the US would be well ahead of the rest of the world in moon based not-gulags and low gravity not-torture techniques. The spin-off technology alone may make the program worth it.
Stevo
We removed 500 tons of yellow cake from the Tulwaitha nuclear facility after the invasion. We know that Saddam purchased 240 tons of yellow cake from Niger before the trade sanctions. We also removed almost two tons of highly refined uranium from Tulwaitha. The 9/11 commision report indicates that Saddam was shopping around in Africa for more.
Willfully deaf and blind leftists will continue to deny the truth in front of them. Joe Wilson is a liar who outed his own wife for dollars. And she could not even be outed since she was not covert. But the leftist/socialist base in the US continue to cover their eyes and ears and scream “Bush Lied! Bush Lied!” in spite of the plain fact that he never lied. For one thing the 16 words did not mention Niger, Joe Wilson, or the CIA. They said ‘British intelligence indicates’ and ‘sought sources of yellowcake’. Joe Wilson said it was unlikely that Niger would sell but that was not the question. The question was whether Saddam sought yellowcake and the answer was that, yes, Saddam approached Niger to buy yellowcake but Niger was aware of the trade sanctions and would not sell. But Saddam still was seeking more yellowcake. That Niger would not sell to him at that time means nothing.
ok, now start cover your ears and start screaming at me. I can take it.
Stevo
Frist Lott and Hastert have not confirmed that Black Prisons exist. At least I have not seen it.
Mike S please provide links that support your wild assertion
John S.
How about you do the same, Stevo?
I’d love to see some valid links to backup the following:
Burden of proof when making wild assertions is fun!
DougJ
Stevo, did you see that piece on Townhall about how Joe Wilson and Richard Clarke helped Libya obtain uranium? I can’t find it now, but it was a good piece along the lines of proving what a liar Wilson is.
Jonathan Ballard
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