I guess this is the sort of thing we are going to have to be arguing over in perpetuity:
Six Muslim religious leaders were taken off a US Airways flight in Minneapolis on Monday evening and detained for several hours after some passengers and crew members complained of behavior they deemed suspicious, including prayers at the gate.
The incident prompted the Council on American-Islamic Relations and officials for the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People in Washington to call Tuesday for Congressional hearings on racial profiling and an investigation by the Justice Department and the Transportation Security Administration.
Nihad Awad, executive director of the Islamic advocacy group, said this was hardly the first time Muslims had encountered problems with stereotyping by the airline. “We seem to have received more complaints against US Airways” than other carriers, Mr. Awad said in an interview. Those complaints have come from Muslim employees and passengers alike, he said.
Morgan Durrant, a US Airways spokesman, said the airline was investigating the episode. But he said the crew had acted in accordance with the company’s policy for removing passengers, though he declined to give specifics on the policy.
The six men detained, all imams, had attended a Minneapolis conference of the North American Imams Federation. They were handcuffed by the police and led off the flight, bound for Phoenix, after reports from passengers and crew members of “unsettling” behavior, according to a police report. One passenger had slipped a note to a flight attendant that began, “6 suspicious Arabic men on plane,” the report said.
This is going to be one of those cases where people on both sides of the issue make sweeping generalities about the other, and we can argue endlessly. It will keep Michelle Malkin and LGF in business, and CAIR no doubt loves the attention.
And on one hand, I can completely understand the outrage that an innocent Muslim might have, and the feeling that they have been unfairly put upon when whisked off a plane for little more than engaging in an every day religious observance. On the other hand, it is an undeniable fact that the people who perpetrated the worst massacre on American soil in recent memory were all of one religion, and one ‘ethnic’ background (sort of). Additionally, there is a general climate of suspicion on airlines to begin with- mothers with breast pumps and grannies with nailclippers are not above scrutiny, as well as a generally authoritarian tone in the air these days, so I guess what is most surprising is that this has not happened more frequently.
*** Update ***
I am IMing back and forth with Tim, and he notes that I seem resigned to thecurrent untenable situation. Well, yeah. I think there is a pretty good chance (and it is, in fact, pretty likely) that this was a passenger freaking out over, well, brown people. I thought I blogged about this a year or two ago, but I received a complimentary copy of “Terror in the Skies” by Annie Jacobsen (two side notes- 1.) I can not find the post, but I am sure I wrote about it and ridiculed the book, 2.) Since I have started to voice my dissatisfaction with the GOP, I have had my steady stream of right-wing books dribble down to nothing- the last book I received and was asked to review was the Lies of Ann Coulter. )
At any rate, Terror in ths Skies could have been titled “White Woman Freaks Out Over Brown People on Plane,” and there are a number of people out there much like Annie Jacobsen. Additionally, I am aware that there most likely are radicals attempting to do “dry runs” to test our security measures. I don’t know what we can do to balance the two existing facts, and I do not know what can be done to resolve the current tensions.
I don’t know if that means I am resigned to the current situation- more accurately I am aware of the situation and don’t know what can be done. Additionally, I want to wait for all the facts to come oout in this case before I come to any conclusions.
ThymeZone
Hey, they were flying on US Air. Everybody prays at the gate before getting on one of their flights.
Hell, even the crew was probably praying.
wilfred
Yeah,
It’s the ‘recent’ that gets me. Slavetime, committed by the members of one religion and one ethnic background has apparently been relegated to the Pleistocene, as long as it serves the purposes of explaining away common, run-of-the-mill bigotry based on FEAR.
Sorry, there’s just no excuse for this. I’ll bet there are going to be some rich Muslims after the lawyers get through with it – I hope so.
The Other Steve
Most Americans don’t even know how muslims pray.
capelza
What the hell is wrong with you John? This is America..you’re supposed to arrive at your conclusions before all the facts and then rationalise them afterwords!!! :)
Actually I agree, but I do tend to lean on the side of the clerics, precisely because of people like Annie Jacobsen.
Note to self…be sure, before boarding, that I don’t cross myself while praying that my luggage at least arrives in the same general region of the US as myself. Might freak someone out.
de stijl
The day after the incident, one of the dudes tried to reschedule his flight home and US Air refused to sell him a ticket.
Their reason was that he had been involved in a previous “security incident” and was therefore banned from US Air per their policy.
The mind boggles.
Jay
Just like the worst massacre in recent memory before that. And those shits who commit smaller acts of terrorism against abortion clinics all share certain traits…(Note: Brown is not an ethnic background.)
On the one hand, yes, I understan people are nervous. I also can see why the US put Americans of Japanese descent in “internment” camps after Pearl Harbor. Do I think the internment camps were a good, sane, legal, ethical, moral, American idea? Yeah, just like I think Michael Richards should be a UN Goodwill Ambassador to African nations.
And speaking of Mr. Richards, when I read this story I thought, how easy it is for a bigot to vicariously harrass some of them funny brown heathens. Slip the stewardess a note, scurry away, sit back and watch the fun, yuck, yuck!
Everytime something like this happens, I feel America becomes slightly less American. We’re not a bunch of nervous people, damn it. What if we wake up one day and we’re all a bunch of cowards and Canada comes and kicks our arses?
However, if this means that if a bunch of Evans. blow shit up we can hassle the hell out of them, I’m all for it.*
j
*Snark. Sort of.
ThymeZone
Well, they’re mostly here now, and were interviewed by the local tv newshounds last night.
They seemed a little baffled by the whole experience.
ThymeZone
Obviously, he’s not a Republican.
Pb
Ah, Malkin, she’s got an answer to everything. After all, if we just kept all the brown people in camps, we wouldn’t have to worry about them getting into our airports or on our planes!
For some reason this all reminds of an old Gallagher joke, which was much funnier back when it was a joke:
fwiffo
I really don’t understand this at all. Doesn’t it occur to people that if the scary brown people had malicious intent, that they would make some sort of effort to not draw attention to themselves? I mean, praying loudly, wearing religious garb, etc. are not really things to do if you want to avoid being noticed.
The real outrage is that they were banned from all future US Air flights for having been involved in a “security incident”. I suppose things happen, so them getting kicked off the first flight can be chalked up to “oops.” But why shouldn’t they be allowed to fly in the future?
Kirk Spencer
I have gradually increased the distance I’m willing to drive instead of fly due to a number of things, this being only a small example. FWIW, the distance took a large surge after I caught some episodes of Airline on A&E – as my wife said, “In most businesses customer service means the business serves the customer.”
At 12 hours, I can get about 750-800 miles and be ready to go after a night’s sleep in a (m)hotel – and get to bring everything I need. At nominal $0.50 per mile, that’s going to cost me $800 round trip plus motel and meals.
Flying, by the time I drive to the airport, park, get through security, get to my destination, get my baggage and then my rental (or ride a shuttle)… That’s eight hours easily. I’m STILL going to need that (m)hotel, still going to need the meals, etc – but I probably do NOT get to bring everything I need.
And this stuff just makes me think I’m not the only one. Wonder why all the airlines are hurting so bad on their bottom line? (rhetorical question)
Dave
…and that is the crux of the whole issue.
Vladi G
The problem isn’t white people freaking out over brown people. That, I have no doubt, is here to stay. The problem is the airlines capitulating to the white people and getting the brown people kicked off the flight for no valid reason. Look, if you don’t feel safe getting on a plane with someone, DON’T GET ON THE PLANE!!
Darrell
Yes John, it’s all an irrational racist reaction to “brown people”.
Speaking of unnerving prayers on airplanes, I was on a flight a couple of years back with orthodox jews who were literally jumping in and out of their seats moving erratically on the plane, swaying back and forth in the aisles and wrapping, then unwrapping something around their arm. After 9/11, such erratic behavior on a plane is a little unnerving. Anyone else observed this type of prayer on a plane with orthodox jews?
Zifnab
Wow. Score one for anti-Semitism. Perhaps your next post can be about how bothered you were by black people pounding out excessively loud rap music so you can carry this analogy forward properly. Or maybe you can talk about the gay men you saw joining the mile high club in the airplane bathroom.
Remind me again why John let you back in here?
Ugh
Ah, rationale, reasoned analysis from John’s pals at Bizarro World with a link about this story.
Lovely.
Darrell
What about my post could in any way be construed as anti-semitic? I had never seen this type of prayer before, involving jumping in and out of their plane seat, swaying in the aisles while wrapping/unwrapping something around their arm? In fact, I don’t even know if they were ‘typical’ orthodox jews, or some particular sect of the jewish religion.
Punchy
Vlad nails it. Since when did ONE white person suddenly have the ability to deny SIX others the chance to fly?
Wow, what a precedent this sets. My ex tries to board my same flight, and I can tell the flight attendant “she was acting suspiciously prior to boarding” and get her booted? Suddenly I can singlehandedly remove ANY BROWN PERSON I WANT simply by demanding it and feigning fear?
WTF happened to due process, reasonable suspicion, etc? I cant wait to kick some uppity frat boys off my next flight by claiming one’s “acting intoxicated”, proof be dammed.
Darrell
Zifnab, like you and John Cole say, it had to have been my bigotry which caused my alarm at seeing 4 or 5 different people jumping in and out of their seats on a plane acting erractically.
John S.
Darrell isn’t anti-semitic – he’s just ignorant and scared.
I don’t chalk his response or that of those this post is about to be so much a “fear of brown people”. It’s more the over-arching xenophobia that pervades the mindset of too many Americans. Anything that doesn’t look them, think like them or act like them is automatically a threat.
Darrell “you lefties” is the living embodiment of that mentality.
Darrell
Yeah, Vlad “nailed” it dumbass-world. Since when are only white people concerned about terrorism. You think black people, latinos, asian and other races aren’t equally concerned? You’re just a flat out asshole is what you are.
Darrell
You people are so stupid you’re like a cartoon. People jumping in and out of their seats on a plane moving erratically in the aisles would cause MOST people to be concerned.. and not simply because someone else ‘looks’ different you moron.
PeterJ
fwiffo said:
Exactly. If I recall correctly the 9/11 hijackers didn’t have to adhere to not drinking alcohol for instance so that they would blend in better.
Also, if Al-Qaeda would try another major attack in the US, I don’t think they would use young male Arabs to carry it out. More likely people from southern or mid Africa, or even females.
Jay
Sorry. I just had to frame this. It is so…Darrell-icious.
Kimmitt
Guys, Darrell’s trying to be funny.
The thing about stupid people is that they are stupid.
John S.
No. Like I said, it must have been your ignorance. Ignorance can be cured with knowledge, but that doesn’t usually seem to be something you are interested in.
All you had to do was politely ask one of the orthodox Jews what it was that they were doing and I’m sure they would have enlightened you – and relieved you of your “alarm”.
Darrell
Or white Chechens or Croatians or black American muslims.
Punchy
Yeah, because there’s PLENTY of Muslims asking for Muslims to be removed from flights….
Darrell, you’re so fucking stupid, it hurts.
Darrell
I’ll ask again, since my experience seems to be so “controversial” to you all.. Has anyone else ever seen orthodox jews pray on a plane in the manner which I described?
I had never seen that before, and I’ll bet that virtually every lefty here posing as being so ‘enlightened’ hasn’t seen such a thing either.
Darrell
Oh yeah, you’re right, only muslims have dark skin [/dumbass]
John S.
It wouldn’t cause anyone with a vague familiarity with how orthodox Jews pray any alarm.
And it is as simple as the fact that they looked and acted different than you. You knew they were orthodox Jews. How did you know that? And you know you aren’t an orthodox Jew, right? So clearly your alarm stemmed from your lack of understanding about how someone you know to be different than you was behaving.
And in all seriousness, anyone who has seen orthodox Jews pray in this fashion would hardly construe it as anything to be alarmed about. Anyone except you and the sort of people that have Muslims thrown off planes.
Darrell
Since my alarm at seeing such an ‘active’ type of prayer on an airplane indicates such “ignorance” on my part according you assholes, perhaps you can tell me if you’ve ever in your life seen such a thing yourself?
John S.
Yes. They pray like that no matter where they are. And if you knew they were praying, why would that freak you out? Are you afraid of prayer?
Zifnab
No, he’s definitely anti-semitic. When the first analogy that pops into your head is “Jews acting crazy”, then yes, you are engaging in anti-semitism. Why didn’t he have used “white person” or “breast feeding mother”? He could have gone with “generic passanger #3”, “some random dude”, “anyone else on the plane”, but no – let’s go take the freaky Jew as our posterchild. Jews are different, and they’re kinda Arab-ish. We’ll just rap our metaphor around them, conjure up images of craaaaazy Semites doing their craaaaazy religious dance, because that’s someone a vitrol spewing little racist can actually allow himself to handle.
Darrell
Similarly, I would be alarmed to see someone jump out of their seats screaming and covering themselves with goat’s blood. Any prayer which involves erratic movement on an airplane in flight will cause reasonable concern from most people.
Darrell
It’s the fist analogy which popped up in my head because it’s the most relevent personal experience I have had in my life to the topic of this thread. And you zifnab are a f*cking asshole.
grumpy realist
Well, yet another argument for General Aviation.
There’s a reason I fly non-US airlines now…
John S.
Like I said, you are ignorant.
This analogy to the manner in which orthodox Jews pray is SO ridiculous that it is funny.
Anyone viewing an orthodox Jew praying would not be concerned unless they are ignorant and scared, like you are.
PeterJ
Jews was once God’s chosen people. Since they killed Jesus, God put them on his “You’re dead to me” list. Darrell might be afraid that Jews praying will annoy God and thus he might strike the airplane with lightning (since the plane also is so much closer to God). Problem for Darell is that he will also suffer from God’s wrath.
Just a guess.
capelza
I haven’t Darrell, but I wouldn’t be “alarmed” by it. More intersted than anything, actually. I’ve never seen an Orthodox Jew pray “live”, only in films. Just as I have never seen a Moslem pray, either. That would be a learning experience for me as well.
The one that WOULD alarm me would be one of those snake handling churches back in the hills. Now if one of those folks suddenly got up in the aisle and started “praying” with their rattlesnakes… (insert obligatory SOAP! jokes here).
Darrell
I don’t believe that’s true. You’re telling me that orthodox jews cannot pray in their own seats without jumping in and out of the seat?
Tsulagi
I got no PC problems with airline security people giving more scrutiny to six Muslim men flying together than to an old granny with an air bottle. But use some intelligence and competence. Quickly check the guys and their baggage. No problem, let them and the flight take off. In the linked article it said even after being detained for five hours and questioned by the FBI, U.S. Airways refused to let them on a later flight.
What bugs me is the No-Fly list. I’m not affected, but local TV news did a story on people in the area who are who definitely shouldn’t be on that list. Among them a retired U.S. Navy captain. Apparently he wasn’t enough of a security risk to prevent him from commanding a fully armed destroyer, but he can’t get on a flight to Duluth without problems. He said he has to get to an airport half a day before a flight and even then it’s no guarantee he’ll get on. For over three years he’s tried to get off the list but gotten nowhere. Now that’s stupid.
Jay
And anyone who has seen Fundamentalist Christians “getting the spirit” would know what strange and alarming really look like.
I think the general rule of thumb is: If the flight attendants don’t care and your friendly air marshal hasn’t blown his cover, relax and concentrate on stifling the screaming baby in the seat behind you.
jg
Is this how policy is made? We just make up how most people will reasonably feel?
You’re in america darrell. People are free to do things which make you uncomfortable. Deal with it.
CaseyL
If we had a security screening system worth the name, we possibly wouldn’t have to deal with seat-of-the-pants determinations, or placative responses to freaked out idiots.
However, that sort of security system would mean a very different scanner:passenger ratio; i.e., enough to treat each passenger as an individual case, rather than as one member of a troublesome herd – and you’re talking about big huge expensive programs, there. Also an even slower journey through the security screen into the terminal.
What it boils down to is, we can have cheap and semi-convenient air travel which is vulnerable to security breaches and personal affronts due to fear and bigotry… or we can have the high-quality variety, which will be neither cheap nor convenient.
Meanwhile, the system we have pretty much ensures incidents like this will happen.
Jay
You’ve got to be fucking kidding me.
Shhh! No one tell him it’s vast Jewish plot to make the gentiles nervous when they fly.
Darrell
Trying peeing in the aisle next time you fly… if that makes other passengers uncomfortable, they need to just deal with, because we live in a free country.
capelza
So Darrell, you equate peeing in the aisle with praying? That explains so much.
Darrell
I am absolutely serious. Is it true that Orthodox jews cannot pray in their seats?
neil
mothers with breast pumps and grannies with nailclippers are not above scrutiny
Irrelevant. The Muslims aren’t complaining about being _scrutinized_, they’re complaining about being _kicked off the flight for no reason and losing their tickets_. If you can find me an example of a granny being banned from travelling because she had nailclippers in her purse, I’d like to see it.
I trust this point has already been made, but it deserves to be made again. And again and again and again. And again
jg
That’s just stupid. You’re equating peeing in the aisle of a passenger plane with prayer?
Darrell
I did no such thing dumbass. Re-read my post along with the post I was responding to.
jg
You are anything BUT serious.
John S.
Your ignorance apalls me.
That said, the concept is that orthodox Jews are so religious, so filled with spirituality that the act of prayer literally “moves” them.
Therefore, they sway, rock back and forth and engage in whatever range of motion they feel is neccessary to show their devotion to hashem. Usually, that requires them to leave their seat, and at the very least stand.
PeterJ
Darell logic:
“Since you’re not allowed to shout ‘Fire!’ in a crowded theater when there’s no fire you are also not allowed to critize the President.”
foolishmortal
Darrell, I don’t know if the seat thing is true or not. I do know that Orthodox jews do look pretty funny when they pray: it involves significant motion, perhaps more than can be achieved in an economy-class seat. I also know that to be afraid of this motion in the context of air travel is pathological, and that if you do suffer such fear it is your responsibility and not that of the praying to remedy it. If you honestly cannot handle flying with the devout, it is you who must leave the airplane.
jg
Well that was a fun five minutes. I’ll go read a real blog now. No time for this stupidity.
Krista
Heh. Well-put.
I’ve never seen Orthodox Jews praying. But I guess if I was on an airplane, and saw people doing what you described, my first reaction would be to look around at everybody else to see how they’re reacting. If nobody else seemed concerned about it, I’d figure it was nothing to be concerned about, particularly if the jumping-and-arm-wrapping was not in an agitated fashion.
Darrell
Well then, you’ll be “appalled” at most everyone, because damn few people know that an orthodox jew cannot pray in his seat without jumping in and out of it.
Darrell
I really don’t think you loons understand how extreme you truly are. You surround yourselves with an echo chamber so that you can feel normal, but you’re not.
ThymeZone
Go away. You’re an idiot.
Darrell
The movement was in an agitated fashion. And because the flight attendents didn’t say anything, I let it go. It was a bit alarming to see such agitated/erratic movement in the aisles.
ThymeZone
So what? If I saw you on a plane with me, I’d do the same thing.
foolishmortal
Darrell:How is the statement you quoted loony? I do have some loony ideas, but I don’t think that was one of them. Educate me.
neil
Please, don’t feed the Darrells.
Perry Como
Wait until Darrell sees a Whirling Dervish on a plane.
ThymeZone
Is it just me, or is Darrell looking a little pie-faced today?
capelza
Why did the Orthodox Jew praying alarm you Darrell? I’m just asking here.
Also was rereading the NYT article and this jumped out at me…
That the agent thought it was weird that a Moslem would pray in Arabic is sad. Were they praying very loud? I don’t know, they say they weren’t. But it the Arabic thig that gets me. The lack of knowledge in this country about other faiths is alarming..as pointed out nicely br Darrell and the Orthodox Jew. Actually, the thing is, the Orthodox Jew was likely an American as was at least one of the imams.
Will Keith Ellison be denied a flight because it is prayer time for him at the airport. That will be a fine kettle of fish.
Btw way, Darrell, I recommend you never fly into Kodiak, Ak…those funnliy dressed RO monks might just be too much for you. They pray in Russian!!! In the Airport even.
Zifnab
Shorter: “Religious Jews Act Crazy And Should Stay In Their Seats. You, Zifnab, are a f*cking asshole.”
Wow, why did that not hurt my feelings?
Jay
Yes, we should pray for them instead.
Krista
Exactly. I’m just as ignorant of the prayer habits of Orthodox Jews as you were. But I think the main thing that’s getting peoples’ panties in a bunch is that you claimed that after 9/11, the behaviour was a bit unnerving. So instead of seeing that and thinking, “Huh. I don’t know what the heck they’re doing, but nobody else seems bothered by it, and the flight attendants aren’t reacting, so whatever…”, you made a mental linkage to terrorism.
I’ll put it another way. If you saw someone fingering a rosary, muttering to themselves, and perhaps even kneeling…would your mind have immediately linked the unusual behaviour with terrorism? Or would you have just figured them to be a devout Catholic?
That which is unfamiliar should not automatically be considered threatening.
JWeidner
As a matter of fact, I have. Although it was in JFK and not actually on the plane. As my wife and I waited for an early morning flight to Montreal, there were a number of Jews around us who stood and began their prayers.
Personally, I tend to be fairly widely read, and although I had never actually witnessed this, I wasn’t really that concerned. I was more fascinated by it, as I had never seen the Jewish morning prayer routine, with the prayer shawl, phylacteries, etc.
And, to answer one of your other questions Darrell, yes, it is common for Jews to sway back and forth during prayer as well. If you are interested, check out wikipedia’s entry on Jewish Prayer for some more background info.
Ryan S.
All the time, its the binding prayer. Nothing unusual, when I was on a plane to Isreal, like half the people were doing it.
Perry Como
Just don’t move around too much. You could scare the natives.
John S.
We mock what we do not understand.
There is nothing agitated or erratic in the movements of a religious person communing with their god.
I suggest next time you ASK people what they are doing if you don’t understand and save yourself the agita.
Darrell
I’ve already explained why…repeatedly. Please don’t pretend that was a sincere question.
John Cole
I will ignore Darrell’s obvious trollbait (“Yes John, it’s all an irrational racist reaction to “brown people”) and move on to say that I think the vast majority of the commenters here are being unfair to Darrell regarding the prayer habits of Orthodox Jews.
I have been all over the world, explored numerous different cultures, had a comparative religion course, and had no idea they prayed in the manner described above. I don’t think of myself as ignorant, and I think it is unfair to call Darrell ignorant for not knowing that.
FYI- My only real experience with Orthodox Jews was when they refused to touch me in NY when they were giving me change.
Pb
Do they have pie in coach?
jcricket
Reminds me of this old joke:
Around Christmas there’s an El Al flight bound for Israel. The captain makes the following announcement, “Thank for for flying El Al Airlines. As we are starting to make our descent, the flight crew requires that all of you return to your seats.”
A couple of minutes later, the captain follows with another announcement, “Greetings everyone. This is your captain speaking again. For those of you sitting in your seats, Merry Christmas. Those of you wandering the aisles while talking loudly on your cell phones, Happy Hanukkah, now please sit down.”
srv
Look, we have first class, business class, and coach. I see an opportunity for someone to offer a possible-terrorist class. Could have a caged area with attendant sky marshalls and prayer mats.
TenguPhule
Darrell’s Irony of the Day, Folks.
capelza
I remember growing up in MO, a Catholic in the heart of the Southern Baptist buckle. Then it was staring and shaking their heads at the weird stuff we Catholics did. Crossing ourselves at the mandatory morning prayer at the public school. Freaks! The Virgin Mary was suspect (as were all our statues that we “worshipped”, and our religious dressed in “costumes”.
A few brave souls even snuck into Mass with me…they thought they had to wear great veils over their heads to get into the church (they were girls and the only Catholic they had really seen was Jackie Kennedy at her husband’s funeral. They still were sure we didn’t believe in Jesus and that we were going to Hell, but the exoticness of it was too much to resist seeing, as long as I didn’t tell their parents.
Darrell
Why do you assholes insist on attributing words and motivations to me which I never said, thought or felt? I was not mocking the orthodox jews, and nothing I wrote could honestly be interpreted as such. I simply stated that the erratic movements involved in their prayers were alarming on a plane. Seems I’m not the only one who felt that way. And the example in the linked article involved less agitated movement than what I saw, as that guy who got kicked off the plane in the article, unlike the orthodox jews that were on my flight, never jumped in and out of his seat.
Krista
“Don’t make me turn this blog around…”
Faux News
Quite true, but in fairness to Darrell, scs (I call her Vixen News) tries really hard to be even more offensive, stupid, and ignorant than Darrell. She often suceeds.
jcricket
Were you menstruating at the time? Kidding.
One of the things that’s interesting is that most Orthodox Jews aren’t Chasids (those are the guys in the black hats with beards and side curls). Most look like you and me, except they might have a beard and wear a kipah all the time. This “blending in” is part of why people don’t know a lot about Orthodox Jewish practices. Also, devout muslims pray 5 times a day, using mats, facing Mecca, often in groups, and in a way that involves prostrating oneself. Orthodox Jews pray 3 times/day, including once before work, and usually once around sundown, so at most you’re likely to see them praying only once/day. They might pray in a group (a minyan), but not for all three prayers.
But if you do see them, the davening (the ritualistic rocking back/forth) is a pretty different site for those of us who mostly pray sitting in our churches/synagogues), quietly kneeling or standing in unison.
Darrell
Are you seriously suggesting that after 9/11, it is somehow strange or unusual for people to have heightened concerns about terrorism on airplanes? Is that really such a “controversial” thing, which would cause others to get “their panties in a bunch”?
ThymeZone
Darrell’s Second Irony of the Day.
Yeah, why would people do that to you, Darrell? I wonder.
Hmmm. { crickets chirp } Why, oh why? Doggone.
{ Whistling }
Anyone?
(Yes, T-Phule, I owe you another one. Just put it on my tab).
Steve
I actually think I read a story in the last couple months about some Orthodox Jew being kicked off a plane for basically this reason. Oh wait, here it is. The priceless part of the story:
I assume this speaks for itself.
Krista
No, of course it’s not strange or unusual to be more concerned about terrorism.
What’s objectionable is that when you viewed unfamiliar behaviour, instead of asking about it, or instead of gauging the reactions of others on the plane, you immediately became suspicious.
It’s understandable — terrorism has made a lot of people jumpy when it comes to any unexpected actions by fellow passengers. But, it would serve humankind better by trying to overcome that visceral reaction via rational thought and questioning, as opposed to simply stating justifications.
ThymeZone
Well, not to take all the steam outta the thread, but the airline stated the ultimate truth about these situations yesterday: One and only one person gets to decide who flies on an airliner and who doesn’t, and that person is the captain. Not the TSA, not the cabin crew, not the other passengers, not the FAA (assuming that no regulations are being broken).
To quote the airline, “It’s his airplane.”
The captain’s job is not to parse or mediate civil disputes and religious rights. It’s to operate the flight as he sees fit. If he thinks something is disruptive, even if it’s because other passengers are just being ridiculous about it, it’s his call and he can toss any passenger he likes, and there is no recourse.
And I’d argue, from an aviation safety point of view, that is the way it should be, and will continue to be.
capelza
TZ, that is true, however the airlines subsequent decision to ban them from flying on the airline again is not his call.
What I’m taking from this is that the next time a screaming brat kicking the back of my too tight seat can get booted off the plane if I slip a note telling the flight attendant that I heard him saying “Allah Akbar” as he did it.
Zifnab
Which works up unto a point. If a guy starts pounding his head against one of the windows and screaming maniacly, then yes, the captain has the authority (and the support) to toss the bum off the plane. But if he just stands at the airplane door saying, “You – in. You – out.” he doesn’t keep his job very long.
Likewise, tossing Muslims off planes sounds alot like tossing black people off buses. If the modivations are different, the results are the same. Discrimination based purely on the color of your skin.
Darrell
Well Krista, if it was simply “unfamiliar” behavior, you might have a point…but you don’t. It was agitated movement jumping in and out of seats on an airplane swaying in the aisles, behavior which would cause reasonable concern from most people. I didn’t scream or tackle them in the aisles, I simply wrote that particularly after 9/11, such behavior was a little alarming to me. That you and the others have your “panties in a bunch” over my reaction, is a reflection on your extremism
John S.
I would hope as a communications teacher you would have taken the time to COMMUNICATE with a person behaving in a way that is foreign to you rather than to fear it.
I love how you are always Darrell’s knight in shining armor in threads like this. It really makes me think that TZ is correct in accusing him of being your sockpuppet.
capelza
Extremism? How is recognising a form of prayer from a Jew extreme Darrell and hence not getting alrmed about it extremism.
Actually I feel bad for you. The wonders you must miss in this world because it.
Hey, off topic a bit, but I was watching a Globe Trekker last night about Istanbul. There are female Whirling Dervishes! It was pretty cool.
Darrell
John Cole virtually NEVER defends my point of view. In this case, you acted like a complete fucking ahole, other lefties did too, and John simply pointed out the obvious.
John S.
I don’t think davening can be accurately describe this way by an honest observer. Then again, neither can it be equated to this:
Hey Cole, is it unfair to describe Darrell as an exaggerator?
Tony J
We had something similarish happen a few months ago when English tourists coming back from Spain in the wake of the latest faux ‘terror plot’ had a bunch of suspiciously-brown people chucked off their flight back to the UK because they’d been “speaking foreign” and “in an excitable way”. Made me sick to my stomach at the time, as does this example.
Why couldn’t the airlines in question have interviewed the recklessly non-white victims, cleared them, and then told the xenophobic arsewipes who fingered them that there was no problem? Where, exactly, is the problem with that scenario?
And as for Pie-Boy, what a shocker. He doesn’t want to get into a discussion about this case, obviously, so he swaps muslims for Jews and waves that “is someone on the Right displaying maybe a little bit of anti-semitism?” red-flag in the hope and expectation that someone will bite and the thread will get skewiffed. Again.
And in, say, sixty or so posts, he’ll be adopting that outraged tone and blaming ‘lefty nutjobs’ for bringing up Jews in the first place.
“How typically dishonest of the Left to lie about something so self-evident. You seem to be saying that I want Jews banned from flying in America, but only a moonbat like you would think that when all I did was give an example of an incident where I was made to feel uncomfortable by people acting strangely on an airplane. They happened to be Jewish (which I didn’t know at the time) but you Leftist assholes have spent the bulk of this thread talking about nothing else. Not very good at hiding your anti-Semitism, are you? It looks like it’s YOU who don’t want Jews flying on American airlines. Why would that be? Maybe for the same reason you all applauded when Hamas/Hizbollah terrorists were murdering Israeli civilians this summer. Etc, etc, in the same vein”.
As ever.
Darrell
What is so extreme about their positions, as John Cole pointed out, is how I was immediately called an “anti-semite” and “obviously ignorant” over an understandable reaction to agitated movement inside an airplane which most other people would have reasonably felt. THAT is what is so extreme.
Pb
On second thought, this reminds me of something straight out of “The Monsters Are Due on Maple Street“. That is to say…
Jay
Even mid-flight? Cool. No more of those little snots who run up and down the aisles or the parents who let them. What about people who don’t cover their mouths when they sneeze? Biological hazard! Get rid of him! [/snark]
I would agree 100% if I knew what happened to a man who is removed for making others uncomfortable. Does he get a little “security incident” flag by his name that prevents him from flying again? Does the captain file a report stating “This guy did nothing wrong, other passengers being twits, put him on the next flight.” Otherwise, anyone can get nervous about anyone else (or pretend to if they just want to cause trouble) and do more to that person than just bugger up their travel plans.
j
Although that would ba a great racket for the airlines: Post shills on flights, they get other passengers kicked off. Those passengers are forced to buy another ticket…
Darrell
Davening, as you defined it above, is swaying back and forth. What I saw was not just swaying in the aisles, but also jumping in and out of their seats and wrapping and unwrapping something around their arms. Agitated movements like that on an airplane will understandably cause some alarm. Why is that so “controversial” to you all?
Tsulagi
Eeeekkk! JEWS ON A PLANE! Save me! Save me!
LOL. And these are the guys that see themselves as Jack Bauer?
Krista
I’m not worked up about it at all, actually. As a matter of fact, I’m pretty much the only one on here who has offered you any sort of empathy, so you might want to refrain from the name-calling, please and thank you.
Were most of the people on the plane concerned? If not, why didn’t you simply ask someone what the people in question were doing, instead of being alarmed? Your initial reaction to this occurrence is understandable, but it’s a bit sad that instead of indulging a very natural curiousity as to why they were acting that way, you preferred to just sit there, stewing, and you probably did not have a very comfortable flight due to the thoughts going through your head.
mrmobi
I agree with John, you guys are being unfair to the Gruppenfuhrer!
Darrell isn’t being racist, he’s just a xenophobe. This all stems from his belief in the 1% doctrine. He’s just afraid that our government, now that it has switched, in part, back to Democratic control, will stop aggressively killing and torturing people who might be dangerous to him.
I’ve got it, Gruppenfuhrer! Why don’t we make all the orthodox Jews wear yellow stars? That way, you won’t have to concern yourself that they are terrorists.
Just trying to help.
And Jay:
I hate flying, always have [chicken]. Don’t get me started about screaming babies on long flights. WC Fields was once asked if he liked children, to which he replied “Only if they’re properly cooked.”
Darrell
Do you have a link to that story? Also, are you describing screaming and shouting as “excitable”? And were the UK tourists who complained white? and if so, what bearing does their race have that makes it worth your mention.
James F. Elliott
“I’ll ask again, since my experience seems to be so “controversial” to you all.. Has anyone else ever seen orthodox jews pray on a plane in the manner which I described?”
Lots. Ever been to New York or San Francisco? Or temple? Ever seen footage of Orthodox Jews at the Wailing Wall? Yeesh. Of course, Darrell is not the only person to have been alarmed at this sort of behavior. A few months ago, I recall an Orthodox Jew being removed from a Canadian flight because his Hebrew prayer was taken for “muttering in Arabic.”
Ignorance is the cause of most of our maladies, and like John S. says, it can easily be cured – it’s the wanting to be cured that’s hard.
capelza
Tefillin..that’s what they were
I guess you never watched any film that depicted this…’The Chosen” for example…not saying it or many others I have seen are correct to Jewish eyes, but the Tefillin is depicted.
Zifnab
Haha. Good call.
Darrell
Krista, like most of your fellow leftists posting here, you are attributing thoughts and actions to me which I never felt or did? And it’s f*cking dishonest as hell of you and the others on this thread who keep doing it.
You say I sat there “stewing”. Here is what I wrote
I never wrote or implied that I felt anger or resentment toward them. I was mereley alarmed at the agitated movements on a plane. A perfect normal understandable reaction on my part, a reaction which you claim gets “panties in a bunch”, which is a reflection of your own extremism.
Jay
A man who asks a question and then rejects the answer has moved beyond ignorant. Ignorance can be cured by accepting new information. Rejecting new information out of hand (for whatever reason) is willful stupidity.
Darrell
I lived in San Francisco 4 years, during which I flew at or near 100,000 miles each year in and out of SFO. I never once saw such behavior on an airplane, and as John Cole pointed out, he has traveled the world and studied comparitive religions, and he had never seen it either.
You dishonestly assert that such behavior is commonplace. I’m calling you a damn liar.
Krista
Interesting. I just looked up the wiki entry on Tefillin, which led me to the section on Jewish services. It’s quite interesting — the ceremony of it is very intricate in its detail, isn’t it?
Zifnab
I taste Boisenberry.
capelza
Did I mention that there are female Whirling Dervishes in Turkey? (attempt to deflect from the coming complete Darrelling of this thread).
Another greater thing I am getting from the links here is that Americans (and probably others as well, but we’re talking about Americans in this thread) is that we don’t even know who our ally Israel is. If we can’t (some of us) recognise an Orthodox Jew from a possible terrorist, what does that say about the real relationship to Israel for these people?
That and the fact that Americans again some of them) want more religion in the public sphere..but apparantly only quite prayers that know one knows about.
mrmobi
Another thread Darrelled.
I have a friend here at work who recently found out that he has the same exact name as a Columbian drug lord. He hasn’t had occasion to fly in the past five years, but he recently bought a new hybrid car, and he was prevented buying the car for an additional 24 hours until his identity could be confirmed, because his name was on the Government’s watch list.
My question is this: do Columbian drug lords frequently come to Chicago personally to buy their cars? Would they really buy hybrids? No dealerships in Columbia?
How fucking stupid is this, five years after 9/11? This, as Gruppenfuhrer Darrell says, is why you cannot trust Republicans with national security.
capelza
Krista it is complex and beautiful in a way. I watched a film called “Kadosh” on the IFC channel the other night. The opening scene is an Hasidic man getting out of bed and dressed and the ritual he goes through. It was fascinating.
Krista
You know what? I’m trying here. I’m trying to meet you halfway, and am offering you some empathy for your initial reaction. Yes, I assumed you were stewing, and that you were not able to put the incident out of your mind as easily as you claim. If that was an incorrect assumption, then I apologize. I was still trying to have a discussion with you based on good faith, and am rather disgusted at how eagerly you leap upon a minor misstep of mine and use it as fodder for name-calling.
neil
I think John may have missed this detail, which makes the incident go far above and beyond what we’ve heard of before. The imams weren’t just bumped from their flight and detained. US Air wouldn’t let them on the next flight either. Although apparently they did refund the tickets. So on top of all the totally unjustified harassment, these guys lost a whole bundle of money, the difference between an advance-purchased ticket and one bought on the day of travel. I think that everyone will agree with me when I say that in America, if the authorities waste your time that’s one thing, but if they take your money it’s something else entirely.
unkraut
A little more information on the Minneapolis fracas:
http://www.lileks.com/bleats/archive/06/1106/112106.html
NAW
1) You have no right to ride a plane
2) You have no right to pray on a plane
3) Planes are for traveling not praying
The Imams had to know this could freak out some people. Guess what it did. Maybe it’s time for those Imams to end their ignorance of proper behavior while traveling by plane.
You want respect for your religion fine but I want respect for our sensitives as well.
Krista
I’ll have to watch for that film. I personally believe in no religion, but can’t help but admire some of the complexity and beauty of the ceremonial aspects of other religions, when I learn about them.
If only all aspects of religion were beautiful and benign…
John S.
I think “jumping” in and out of their seats is a bit overstated, but hey according to you they might as well be pouring goat blood over themselves.
As for the nefarious “wrapping and unwrapping something around their arms”, that is part of the prayer ritual. What they are doing is laying tefillin, which are boxes that contain biblical verses. Although I suppose in your world, these boxes could contain IEDs or something.
Seriously man, educate yourself.
Darrell
Krista, I didn’t leap on “one” misstep of yours.. not only did you characterize me as “steaming” over the incidents, you also attempted to justify the “panties in a bunch” reaction to my entirely reasonable concern over the activity in the airplane isles.. and you also assumed (accused?) without asking me, that I didn’t indulge my curiousity and ask someone about what was going on. Someone engaging in a good faith discussion would not have employed such dishonest tactics in my opinion.
ThymeZone
I’ll wait for more facts. I have a hunch that the list they are referring to is not their own list, but a TSA list.
In which case, it’s not their call either.
Darrell
You’re the only asshole here characterizing the arm wrapping as “nefarious”.
Krista
Well, if you HAD asked someone, then you wouldn’t have been asking all of us about it then, would you?
Bah. I give up on you. I try to meet you halfway and just get called a liar for my pains. Go take your reasonable concerns and stick them up your peehole, for all I care.
Darrell
As John Cole has already pointed out, you’re being a fucking jackass saying things like that.
Pooh
Before reading a single comment in this thread, I’m going to go out on a limb and guess there is a lot of Pie in here already.
I will further go out on a limb and posit that I think A Commenter Who Must Not Be Named has tried to, or will shortly try to, channel Gordon Gecko: “Xenophobia, for lack of a better term, is good. Xenophobia is right. Xenophobia works.”
How’d my predictions go?
ThymeZone
I can top your story. I lived in the Bay Area for the better part of two different decades, the 60’s and the 80’s. I lived in San Bruno, which is basically the western boundary of San Francisco International Airport. I traveled well over 100k miles a year out of that airport.
What prayer activity have I seen on airplanes? Not that much, actually, but I usually have my nose in a book or a crossword puzzle. I don’t pay much attention to what’s going on in the cabin. So my report is entirely anecdotal and useless. Like yours.
But I do like pie.
Darrell
Even after having it explained that it was an orthodox jewish prayer ritual, it STILL is disconcerting to see all that movement in the airplane aisles, as unless one is of that particular branch of judaism, how can I know that such explanations are true? Since I have traveled extensively and never seen such a thing before on an airplane, I wasn’t sure if it was a special ritual prayer, or some different sect of judiasm or what, even AFTER asking and hearing the explanation.
Krista, you made an assumption, you accused me without basis, and when I call you on it, you lack the class to apologize. And the cycle continues.
The Other Steve
yummm… Mincemeat pie… yummm…
You are making me hungry
ThymeZone
What does “traveling extensively” have to do with knowing about prayer rituals? Are you trying to say that unless you have seen the thing on an airplane before, then you don’t have any idea what it is?
And how could anyone live to mid-adulthood in this country without being familiar with the prayer behavior you described? I’ve seen it many times, I know what it is, and seeing it on a plane wouldn’t cause me to suddenly wonder what it was.
So what point are you trying — and failing — to make here today? That unless you have had the pie on a plane, you won’t recognize the pie?
ThymeZone
Sorry, Darrell, I meant “many, many times” since I know that you don’t recognize such modifiers unless they are repeated.
I have had many, many pies.
Darrell
Because if a prayer ritual involves say, jumping and screaming and speaking in tongues, and is the case with many Pentacostals, they typically keep their prayer rituals more subdued while on an airplane, so as not to alarm passengers. Did that really need to be spelled out for you?
ThymeZone
Darrell, Krista has more class in her little finger than you have in your whole fucking family.
Krista
Well, I found it in about 30 seconds on Wiki, so you might want to start there…
And I did apologize for assuming that you were stewing, remember? So c’mon…be a sport and admit that I at least have a teeny-tiny amount of class. It won’t hurt you to say something nice about me. Honest. It might feel a bit like indigestion, but that’s just because it’ll be such a new and unusual experience for you. :)
John S.
I don’t give a fig what cover you think John Cole has provided you for your amazing display of ignorance today.
The fact is, the only person coming off like a jackass in this thread is you.
Krista
So THAT’S where it went…damn, I’ve been looking for that.
ThymeZone
That sounds like your posting ritual.
John S.
For your consideration…the braying of a true jackass.
Pooh
Why is this day different then all other days?
Sorry, just a little ritualistic Demi-Semi humor there…
Pooh
I will say this for the pieboy, he has to have the vascular system of a small pony. The amount of blood rushing to his head at such random yet repeated intervals would cause a normal man to burst.
ThymeZone
Yes, but why would people be afraid of a simple musical instrument?
Every marching band has a xenophone, right?
Steve
Yeah, uh, so Darrell saw some people doing an unusual prayer ritual and thought to himself, “What the heck are those people doing?” That’s what this thread is about? Sounds like a fairly human reaction to me.
Maybe I’m missing part of the story, but the key difference between Darrell’s story and the stories we’re talking about seems to be that Darrell did not flip out and ask a stewardess to kick the people off the plane. Nor did the airline comply and kick them off the plane.
I have better things to worry about than people getting concerned with behavior they’re not accustomed to, but where I draw the line is that I expect the airline to act like grownups and reassure people rather than throw paying customers off the plane for Flying While Muslim.
If a handful of white people said they didn’t feel comfortable having a black guy on the plane, the airline wouldn’t kick the black guy out, right? So when we read about these incidents where a Muslim gets kicked out to avoid making the other customers uncomfortable, it’s like the airline is saying there’s some level of legitimacy to the complaints. That bothers me.
Darrell
I think you were obsessing over trying to “get” me, to the point that you made up characterizations and accusations which were not true. You were ‘classy’ enough to admit to one of the untrue characterizations.
Zifnab
Because we’ll get some Turkey with our pie.
Zifnab
I don’t even know why Muslims need planes. Don’t they have carpets for that?
Pooh
I’m sorry, the correct answer is “on this day, we offer only unleavened snark.”
Ted
You know, whenever I see that the thread is very long, it’s guaranteed that Darrell has spewed liquid shit all over it.
Darrell
Thank you Steve.
In this case, the imams were praying loudly on the plane while criticzing the US. I think it certainly falls in a ‘grey area’ of reasonable suspicion, and not Flying While Muslim.
Pb
NAW,
Actually, I have a feeling that equal protection still applies on US flights:
Pooh
I think that’s bureaucratese for “Respect My Authoritah!”
HyperIon
i could tell from the large number of comments that the thread is well and truly Darrell’ed.
umm, i’m thinking you mean virtually or figuratively
ThymeZone
Well, I say again, the airline is not “saying” anything of the kind. What the airline says is, the captain is in charge and it’s his decision. Once you step into the airplane, your passage is entirely up to him. And he doesn’t have to explain to anyone on the plane why he decides that one person stays on and another gets off.
While obviously there may be unfair outcomes in the application of such a rule, I wouldn’t tamper with it. And I would not try to train airline pilots to be social workers or lawyers. I would expect them to do what they are supposed to do, which is to size up the situation quickly and make a decision that does not compromise the physical safety of other people.
The airline will rightly back his decision regardless of what is is.
Note, the captain did not say “Get those despicable ragheads off my plane.” If he had, then I’d say, he and the airline have a problem. But “I am going to have to ask you to leave the airplane” is his and his alone to say, and I wouldn’t presume to tinker with that protocol. When committees, legislatures, and bloggers start monkeying with the authority of airline captains, it’s time to roll up the runways and shut the system down.
Having spent thousands of hours in the cockpits of airplanes, let me say, there are a lot of guys I would trust my life with, but wouldn’t go out for a beer with, if you get my drift.
Pb
Cite? Yeah, that’s what I thought…
Krista
“Get” you as in trying to understand your motivations? Yes, that’s probably what I was trying to do. “Get” you as in trying to score points off of you? No, sirree.
And if I did attribute actions or motivations to you that were not true, then I do apologize. I was simply trying to empathize, and you’re a very difficult person to understand, and therefore to empathize with.
Oh, come on. You had to put quotes around it? I’m really not all that bad, Darrell…I’m sure it won’t hurt you too much to admit, without grudge or rancor, that I apologized quite sincerely when you pointed out what I had said. I know you can do it, Tiger! Go, Darrell! Be gracious to a leftie! You can do it!
Perry Como
They were praying at the gate, not on the plane.
Darrell
LOL! Tell us, what did you “think” Pb? The cite is in the linked NYT article at the top of John Cole’s post which provided the basis for this thread.
Darrell
Not true. Re-read the article.
Darrell
Ok, classy enough..
Pooh
How did they get their prayers through security? What if they’ve learned to Set Us Up The Bomb out of prayers?
Pb
Darrell,
If *you* read the article, then the only explanation here is that you’re a pathological liar. But we already knew that. Now who wants more pie?
ThymeZone
In light of the circumstances, I’ll have the rhubarb.
Krista
Thank you, Darrell. ;)
(I knew you could do it…I’m just so proud right now that I could weep.)
Pooh
Am I the only one who prefers muffins to pie?
capelza
I’m baking a Black Walnut Pie as we speak! Like Pecan, only Ozarky!
Perry Como
I did. Not being an ass here, but I don’t see in the article where they were praying on the plane:
…
…maybe that part?
So it looks like some of them prayed at the gate. Chanting “Allah” isn’t really praying anymore than someone saying “Oh God” while boarding the plane. It is US Air after all.
Krista
Yes, I hear you’re a big fan.
I hope you guys enjoy your Thanksgiving! I’m sure the threads will be pretty empty, so I’ll just have to pick a fight with Canuckistani, I guess.
And I think I’ll take that peach pie out of the freezer, in honour of Darrell’s graciousness.
ThymeZone
Darrell made a nice?
Now we really do have something to be thankful for!
{ voice of Zuzu }
Every time a bell rings, an angel gets his wings!
Attaboy, Clarence!
capelza
Don’t forget Perry Como, they also asked for seatbelt extensions…a “clue”. Not wanting to be strapped in like a bottom in a s&m session is a sure sign of bad intentions. Thank God they didn’t ask for an extra pillow..or food.
ThymeZone
The effects of too much pie?
Pb
Perry Como,
No fair taunting the cite-impaired by providing more quotes, including a reproduction of the end of the line first quoted at the top of the original post here, in fact…
NAW
Pb the Imams weren’t ejected because they were Muslim they were ejected because of their actions. So there are probably no equal protection violations.
“Individuals who may appear to be of Arab, Middle Eastern or South Asian descent and/or Muslim or Sikh have the right to be treated with the same respect as persons of other ethnicities and religions, and all persons should be treated in a polite, respectful and friendly manner.”
Agreed but that also includes not freaking people out by practicing your religion while in transit.
Should we also let Hindus some of whom believe their religion says they must carry a knife at all times? Is not allowing them to carry a knife on a plane disrespectful to their religion? Are demands to carry a knife on a plane disrespectful to the culture in which you are living?
I can have respect for a religion while still refusing to give deference to it. I practice this by demanding science classes include evolution even though some religions disagree with it.
Darrell
You’re not being an ass. I misread and I stand corrected. Seems they were praying in the gate area. That changes things a bit. In my view, passengers of all faiths should, out of courtesy, try and keep a lid on behavior inside the plane which might reasonably cause concern among the other passengers.
Out in the gate area, it would have to be pretty damn erratic behavior to justify being thrown off the plane. A judgement call was made.
Pb
capelza,
Well, if one of them had been an al-Macgyver, who knows what he could have done with those seatbelt extensions! What’s next–playing cards? Headphones?! (and did they ban those little airline pins already?)
ThymeZone
Amazing, you can be right and wrong, at the same time.
Yes, a judgement call was made, but no, it doesn’t have to be “justified.” The airline was right, yesterday: It’s the captain’s airplane, he gets to make the call.
We can exercise our bloggorhea until the cows come home, makes no never mind. We don’t get to have a say in the matter, and that’s just the way I want it to stay.
NAW
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6168838.stm
The men were told to disembark shortly after saying evening prayers. Three of the six had stood as they prayed.
Sounds like they were praying on the plane to me.
capelza
Ha! Yeah, just think if they had been able to get ahold of peanuts (the fancy honey roasted kind..you know what I mean).
Maybe they had pop rocks in their pockets…just waiting for their chance to get a coke from the flight attendant. That’s why they needed the seat belt extensions…a little room before they blew themselves up!
TenguPhule
I stand corrected, *this* is Darrell’s Irony of the Day.
Krista
The freakiness is in the eye of the beholder, though, isn’t it?
What if I went back to Catholicism, and happened to be on a plane where there were a few people on there unfamiliar with Catholic ceremony? And if I were scared of flying, and my sole comfort was in completing a few decades of the rosary, while praying under my breath? There might be people on there freaked out by the nervous-looking lady, muttering under her breath while fingering these mysterious-looking beads. If those people brought my actions to the attention of the airline staff, would they be right in booting me off the flight and declaring me a security risk?
NAW
My bad. Yahoo seems to clarify that the prayers were said at the gate.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061121/ap_on_re_us/passengers_removed
“The imams were removed from the flight to Phoenix on Monday night after three of them said their normal evening prayers in the terminal in Minneapolis-St. Paul International Airport before boarding, said Omar Shahin, president of the North American Imams Federation. They were among the 150 imams who attended a federation meeting in Minneapolis.”
capelza
NAW, from the article John linked to:
They were at the gate when they were praying..in Arabic.
Darrell
There is a grand canyon of distinction though, between quietly praying under one’s breath, and shouting prayers and/or repeatedly jumping in and out of the airplane seat.
Jay
Sweet potato pie v. pumpkin.
Discuss.
Pb
NAW,
Their ‘actions’ in this case being prayer and/or speech in a foreign language–I’d say it’s definitely an equal protection issue.
Yeah, saying ‘God’ in another language, we can’t let that happen. Incidentally I’m an atheist, more or less, so perhaps the fact that you won’t catch me saying it could be suspicious too…?
Also, the knife issue is covered by the regs already, check it out.
The idiocy and/or probable illegality exhibited by the airlines and some of their passengers here is almost enough to make me get this shirt for a casual flight sometime…
ThymeZone
If both pies are world class, I’ll take the sweet potato pie.
If they’re just average, I’ll take the pumpkin.
Krista
Darrell, I wasn’t referring to your example, actually. I was referring to NAW’s statement that people shouldn’t practice their religion in transit, because it can freak other people out. And I’m as non-religious as it gets, but it seemed like a rather sweeping statement — where does one draw the line? But, like TZ says, it’s the pilot’s call, and that really is for the best, as any commercial pilot worth his or her salt will have had lots of training on this type of thing, which, when combined with experience, makes him or her a much better judge than we are, of which passengers might post a threat.
Krista
And my vote is for sweet potato pie, if pecan isn’t an option.
Zifnab
You can’t be serious. Praying = Knife Weilding? Last I checked, planes are typically hijacked with boxcutters, not rugs facing Mecca. A better analogy would probably be tossing a Hindu off the plane because he loudly objected to being served a hamburger. A bit disruptive? Perhaps.
If the Imams had been chanting “Death to America” in their prayers, US Airways would have a case. If they’d threatened someone for disrupting them, starting shoving people to make themselves space, or generally acted like dicks, then US Airways would be within its rights. But, last I checked, people in this country are afforded Freedom of Religion, and that extends to wearing weird clothes, eating/not eating strange foods, and even praying funny.
That these guys were hassled for five hours because they decided to pray is rather sad and regretful in a post-9/11 world. That they were cleared, then booted regardless, is disgraceful and inexcusable.
capelza
Krista, have you ever had a sewwt potato and pecan pie? It’s layered with the pecan filling on the bottom and the sweet potaot on top…really good.
Same with SP and Apple.
Oh yeah, sweet potato over pumpkin. The sweet potatoe is more velvetly.
NAW
“Their ‘actions’ in this case being prayer and/or speech in a foreign language—I’d say it’s definitely an equal protection issue.”
PB can you site the statute or ruling that provides for practing your religion in a place of public convenience is protected?
A Findlaw link would be best.
Thanks
capelza
An aside, isn’t it the Sikhs who carry the special knife?
A second aside, you know an airline that serves hamburgers? You know an airline that serves food perios? :P
Krista
capelza – That sounds really good. I know my bf’s mom makes an awesome sweet potato and pecan casserole, and I’ve often thought that it would be great in a pie crust.
Of course, I still love traditional Acadian sugar pie. Sugary-hyper-goodness!
Punchy
I don’t think it had anything to do with their Orthy Jewishness…perhaps your Steelers lid offended the many Jets fans in the Big Apple…or perhaps all that GOP blood on your hands (of which you’ve since removed) scared them away…
ThymeZone
You can’t be serious?
The end.
capelza
Acadian sugar pie…oh my I looked up that recipe. Sugary-hyper-goodness is right. I’ll have to try that one for Christmas. Oh wait, I’m a liberal, I don’t do Christmas. I’ll serve it in the trenches during the War on Christmas.
Back to the topic. The break in the Right’s thinking. Not enough religion allowed in the public sphere, but it’s okay to toss someone who is practicing theirs in the public sphere..it’s okay to toss them off the plane.
James F. Elliott
“You dishonestly assert that such behavior is commonplace. I’m calling you a damn liar.”
Um, wow? I mean, I know I can be a dick and all, and I’m sure I came off as condescending, but screw you and your name-calling.
The San Francisco Bay Area is home to a pretty significant Russian Jewish Orthodox population, as is New York City. That increases the likelihood that you’d see such a thing. Assuming that you’ve watched the news any time in the past fifteen years or so, or even watched goddamn “Ghostbusters I or II,” you HAVE to have seen footage of Orthodox Jews in prayer. I don’t think I asserted such behavior as commonplace (who’s putting words in who’s mouth now?), but rather, that witnessing it is not out of the realm of pretty damn possible.
“Should we also let Hindus some of whom believe their religion says they must carry a knife at all times? ”
That’s Sikhs, dude.
NAW
capelza you are right it is Sikhism. Sikhism has many things in common with hinduism and I mixed up which has the knife carrying practice.
capelza
Thanks NAW for the acknowledgement.
Pb…I meant to comment on this earlier. The Twilight episode is perfect! I still watch that once in awhile when it comes on.
Pb
NAW,
You’re kidding, right? That’s straight-up protected under the Frist Amendment. Solicitation might not be, (see Int’l Soc. for Krishna Consciousness v. Lee) but personal prayer in non-public fora (like airports and schools) definitely is. Can you site anything that implies it wouldn’t be?
Andrew
You know, we wouldn’t have these problems if we shipped people via fedex.
Mom packages Little Timmy with some peanuts or bubblewrap, calls for a pickup, and 14 hours later he is delivered to Grandma’s house.
Pb
ThymeZone,
Just because it’s “his airplane”, that doesn’t make any decision he makes legal under DOT regulations or The Constitution–if he is in fact kicking them off the plane on the grounds that (a) they were praying in an airport terminal, and/or (b) they said “God” in another language, i.e., they were practicing their First Amendment rights while brown, then he broke the law, period. There’s no “security threat” there whatsoever, just bigotry, or bigotry by proxy. US Air should be liable for that, and I hope they get sued into the ground for it–it’s high time they were held responsible.
Steve
I think we should elect a commercial airline pilot as President, since they apparently can do no wrong when given the power of sovereignty. What a wonderful, dissent-free country we will be, when no one is permitted to question the wise decisions of our airline-pilot President.
I assume, also, that it would be a good idea for the airline-pilot President to appoint an airline spokesman as Attorney General, since they are apparently infallible when it comes to declaring legal rights and responsibilities.
Of course, these theories aren’t actually that far off from those advanced by our present administration, but when you think about it, Bush WAS a pilot. Which brings the whole argument full circle.
SPIIDERWEB™
Don’t know about you, but I’m turning in anyone I see “crossing” themselves before a flight because that could mean they know they’re about to die.
Its always amazing to me how people will freak over other’s being different from them.
In case you’re unfamiliar with the reputation Bandito’s have, take a look.
Anyway, back when I had my store, several Bandito’s were customers and, believe me, I felt much safer with them around than without them. A couple drunk guys started to fight in one aisle and were summarily kicked out by a couple Banditos.
The funny thing about us humans is we’re hardly ever the way people see us.
ThymeZone
Yeah, you might want to step back from that.
First of all, you don’t get it. He doesn’t need “grounds.” He has full authority over the airplane. Anything that affects the safety of the flight, he is the judge and the jury.
You don’t have to take my word for it, man. It’s not exactly something that just came up two days ago.
jake
How about this; Big, big multi-lingual signs all over US airports:
ThymeZone
Of course, Pb, if you want to petition FAA to rewrite the regulations so that final authority on a civil aircraft shall be given over to practitioners of bloggorrhea, lawyers, little old ladies, civil rights activists, and religious advocates, go ahead. There actually is a process in place for considering your proposal. I wish you the best of luck with it.
Meanwhile, see Federal Aviation Regulation (FAR) Part 91.3
Pb
ThymeZone,
Exactly. And if it turns out that none of these concerns actually did affect the safety of the flight in the least, then his judgement would be called into question, and rightly so.
ThymeZone
Jesus, you really don’t listen. The captain decides what does and does not affect safety. Once you set foot in the door of the plane, the captain is the authority. Whether you like that or not or approve of it or not, notwithstanding. If the captain decides that he wants you off the plane, you’re gone. Or the plane sits. But you ain’t flying.
And your problem, if you try to challenge that rule, is that airline pilots are not going to fly the planes unless they have that authority. You aren’t going to change this rule, trust me.
But please, keep flailing at it. The thread is dead otherwise.
ThymeZone
Try to imagine that you are not a blogger for one minute, but instead, are running an airline, Pb.
Are you the guy who is going to send the memo to your pilots stating that the airline is now going to second-guess the pilots’ decisions in these matters?
Have fun.
Pooh
Giving TZ the benefit of any doubt, you’ll admit that not letting them re-book was indefensible, right?
ThymeZone
Rebooking is not under the captain’s authority.
Actually, you have about three different event contexts here:
1) Pre boarding, and whatever happened at the gate
2) Post boarding, and whatever happened on the airplane
3) Post deplaning, and whatever happened after it
I am talking about context #2, the airplane. It doesn’t matter what happened in the gate, or what happens after the plane leaves. What happens on the plane is under the control of one authority, for all intents, and that is the pilot in command.
He or she is given a $30m airplane with 150-300 people in it, and is solely responsible for getting that plane and those people from A to B, dealing with all the hazards and problems, the weather, whatever, and managing a complex mission profile while doing it.
He is literally the captain of the ship, and it’s not his job to be fair, or to convene a hearing and get everyone’s point of view, or to consult civil rights law. It’s his job to operate the flight and meet a schedule and he probably has at most a few minutes to make a complex decision based on whatever information is given to him.
The airline told you yesterday how this works: “We support the decision of the pilot. It’s his airplane.”
That’s it.
As for re-booking, I have no opinion, I don’t have the facts. All I have is a day worth of Darrellisms and a lot of blog foot-stomping. Plus turkey juice all over my car because the goddamned fresh turkey leaked, plus sore knees from being on my hands and knees grouting a shower because my goddamned sister in law is coming for a week and of course nothing in the house is now good enough or clean enough or anything enough.
ThymeZone
Correction: I do know that most if not all of the affected persons in this story are now here in Phoenix. So the story is basically over AFAIC.
Please pass the pie.
Tim in SF
Jesus. Darrell is worse now than before he was banned. WTF? He completely ruined this thread by his third post. PLEASE BAN HIM AND LEAVE HIM BANNED. I’ll check back in a week to see if BJ is worth reading again. With Darrell here it’s just not.
CaseyL
Seconded. Please.
lard lad
A Rod Serling classic. Did any of you guys see the Keith Olbermann editorial where he used that particular Twilight Zone episode to skewer the GOP’s relentless peddling of fear, paranoia and xenophobia to rack up votes? Brought a tear to my eye, it did…
Speaking of Serling and Olbermann, you should read this howler of a letter to Science Fiction Weekly from fake-anthrax mailer Chad Castagana, the shitbucket who mailed threatening letters containing white powder to Nancy Pelosi, Jon Stewart, Keith Olbermann, David Letterman, and others. Here he vents his spleen concerning rampant leftism in the world of sci-fi… citing Serling as a specific offender. Haw, haw, wotta doofus.
jake
Here’s one way I’ve been looking at the captain’s ultimate authoritah: He also has the option of chucking the person(s) who complain, which has the added bonus of being hilarious. Now if only they would enact a blanket ban for obnoxious kids…
rachel
In that case, is it appropriate to complain about motherf**king snakes on your motherf**king plane? I mean, this IS a religious ceremony, and so the strong language might offend the practitioners.
Richard Bottoms
Sheiks on a Plane.
Sorry, had to say it.
pie
From now on, I’m going to greet everyone by saying, “So-and-so, welcome back you insufferable fucking asshole.”
Darrell did it, so it must be okay. Darrell, now I say that you are Petros, and upon this rock will I build my church; and all the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it.
Welcome back, you insufferable fucking assholes. Happy Thanksgiving. Let us all praise the mystery of Pie.
ThymeZone
Same to you, you lefty bastard.
Darrell
“pie”, that response wasn’t on this thread, and it was a response to a comment made days ago to a poster with a habit of stalking me on threads, in that case, arriving on the thread with a first post 100% personal attack calling me a “dickhead”. I think it is so honest and ‘reality based’ to selectively quote me like that without context.
And rather obsessive of you to bring it up here and now, as it happened days ago on another thread, not yesterday when this thread started, don’t you think?
Darrell
oh and “pie”, Happy Thanksgiving. Or not. Whichever you prefer. I hope you don’t spend the day sobbing in your parent’s basement over the evils of corporate profits and ‘man-made’ global warming.
Steve
Mmmmm, pumpkin pie.
jcricket
MMMMmmmmm, inappropriate use of “scare” “quotes”….
Reminds of of when Joey said, I’m “sorry”…
pie
Darrell, welcome back you insufferable fucking asshole.
Verily, ere the cock crows thou shalt deny me thrice.
Happy Thanksgiving to you, too.
Aren’t you going to ask me to blow my brains out now, Darrell? I feel somewhat slighted by this second-class treatment.
ImJohnGalt
Okay, late to the thread, again, so apologies if this first post doesn’t meet your standards, Darrell.
John:
Why were you asking them to touch you?
As I began reading the thread, I was going to defend Darrell, because I didn’t think his initial post was anti-semitic. I consider myself fairly well travelled, having lived in 7 countries on three continents, and I have never seen the type of praying behaviour Darrell described. That said, I like to think that my reaction would have been one of curiosity, rather than alarm.
But then, amidst the piling on, of all people, Darrell chooses to lambaste Krista? I swear Darrell, for someone who throws out blanket slurs at lefties and specific insults with impunity, you sure are sensitive to any criticism.
As for this:
It was a several hundred word post here, whose only ‘personal attack’ was a single word sentence at the end, which said, admittedly, ‘Dickhead’. I don’t ‘stalk’ you and would ask you to justify that characterization, except that you won’t, because it would prove the lie of your assertion.
And Krista, I’d argue with you here tonight if only to keep you company, but although we’re in Toronto my wife is American, so we celebrate Yanksgiving as well as Canucksgiving.
Oh, and Happy Yanksgiving one and all (even Darrell). Remember between heaping mouthfuls of turkey and melatonin induced comas while watching football to take a few minutes today to really think about what you have to be thankful for.
Hm. Now I’m in the mood for a ‘civility Thursday’.
ImJohnGalt
Gr…melatonin? Of course, I meant L-Tryptophan.
Krista
You’re going to be in a tryptophan coma, if this keeps up.
And don’t worry about Darrell. Evidently, I just rub him the wrong way. I’m okay with it — this isn’t junior high. (Although sometimes it resembles it to an alarming degree, doesn’t it?)
ThymeZone
Happy Thanksgiving to you, Darrell.
From whole ppGaz family.
Maci says “ditty da ohhhh.”
Krista
Impressive…she’s not even two yet, and she’s already more eloquent than all of us BJ commentariat put together. :)
ThymeZone
Oh yes. I learn something from her every day.
Krista
You know, I could make an unkind joke about toilet training here, but I’ll refrain solely because you’re so nice to me.
ImJohnGalt
Heh, it must be something about Canadians. I barely respond to his comments, but the few times I have I’ve used his own quotes to either make my point or ask about inconsistencies, and apparently I’m a raving psychopath who regularly screams obscenities and writes Kaczynski-style diatribes at him in such a way that appears to have also gotten under his skin.
Different strokes, I guess.
I’m also apparently stalking him. Who knew?
Anyway, Happy Canadian Thursday, Krista.
ThymeZone
Okay, I’ll help you out:
Her diapers are cheaper.
Ha ha.
;^)
ThymeZone
A friend who works in the airline industry pointed me to this article in the smalltown press, which these days, is often the best place to get good information about a story that gets national buzz.
And the aforementioned friend, speaking in the interest of airline pilots, said, basically, “Only the pilot has final authority. He can override the gate agent, air marshalls, even Air Traffic Control. He may be called to account later, but onboard the airplane, he makes the final call. Period.”
Paraphrased only slightly, no meaning was changed.
demimondian
The key point in the story is “he may be called to account later”. This particular pilot over-responded inappropriately, and should be called to account for that. At the end of the day, that’s what I want to see.
Krista
Nicely done.
I like this. I don’t have to insult people…I just have other people insult themselves for me. There’s gotta be money in this somewhere.
ThymeZone
Well, you won’t see it. Take it to the bank.
The protocol works, and hopefully nobody is going to tamper with it.
I don’t buy the “discrimination” cry here, at all. I think it can be argued that there are some unfortunate aspects to this story, but one of them is that a bunch of Muslim clerics decided to make a display out of their “ritual” and ran into some trouble over it. Well, tough shit. Nobody got hurt, and by the next morning they were on their way to their destination.
Non story. If anything, I would increase the authority of airlines and their people to act in this capacity.
demimondian
If I were a betting man, TZ, I’d give you odds on that.
Here’s what’s going to happen: USAir is going to face a discrimination lawsuit. They are going to settle, to avoid a loss. (Remember that discrimination law has to do with the effect of policies, not their intent.) Part of that settlement will involve the termination for cause of the pilot of the flight in question.
ThymeZone
On what?
First of all, which of the three event contexts do you think is on the table here?
1) Before boarding
2) On the plane
3) After deplaning
I have spoken only of #2, and if I were you, I’d save my betting money. The oldest rule of the sea and sky is the authority of the captain of the ship.
Do you really think that this story has enough substance to challenge that?
Get serious.
As for #1, I wasn’t there and the two or three wire story paragraphs I’ve seen about it are not sufficient to cause me to have an opinion.
As for #3, I don’t even have that much information about it. All I know for sure is that next morning these people were on a plane to Phoenix without incident, and the story has disappeared from the radar.
So if you want to make a bet, make it specific, and you just might have a wager. I am looking for a little extra Christmas money.
ThymeZone
WTF, man? Frivolous lawsuits get settled all the time, that doesn’t mean that there was ever a case.
I seriously doubt any suit will get filed. But I also have a suspicion that these guys are playing us, and there is a lawyer out there for every butthead client.
Steve
A) You only hear about the lawsuits that get filed. In the real world, the vast majority of people who experience this kind of hassle just let it go.
B) Pilots have unions to keep them from becoming bargaining chips.
C) I love the fact that lawyerly nuance has won the war of ideas at BJ.
demimondian
On the plane, TZ. The pilot threw them off for patently discriminatory reasons, and at least one of them is already talking about a lawsuit. The language of the law concerning damages is excruciatingly clear: policies are legal or illegal according to their consequences, not their intent. (In the case of discrimination law, bad intent can make things worse, but good intent is no defense. The Congress was quite explicit in that when it wrote the law.)
The “lawsuit” may make the pilot in you uncomfortable, but, dude, USAir is going to have to change its policies to make them comply with the law. That either means training their pilots adequately, or reducing the captain’s authority.
(And Steve, I know the unions. I’ll be astonished if any other union lifts a finger to help ALPA. I don’t even know if picket lines would be respected.)
TenguPhule
Darrell’s Thanksgiving Day Irony, Folks.
TenguPhule
Corrected.
ThymeZone
You know what? Just fuck off.
FAR Part 91.3 …. it’s a federal regulation, not a goddammed airline policy. The pilot answers to the federal reg, not to the airline.
The authority of a captain is not a “policy”, it’s part of the most basic law of the air and sea.
What advice do you think the airline can give, here?
“Well, we think you should consider the civil rights aspects of the situation and take full interviews of the subject passenegers before asking them off the plane.”
WTF are you thinking, man? Seriously, WTF?
ThymeZone
I’ll say one thing, when you guys don’t get something, you really pull out all the stops to go into denial to get out of your mindset, and understand the reality.
First of all, as should be obvious to even the most careless observer of this story and thread, you don’t know anything about how and why the pilot decided what he did. You don’t know what he saw, heard, or was told by others. How the FUCK are you making a judgement without knowing those facts? Are you telling me that any disgruntled airline passenger can shout “discrimination” to the nearest tv camera and you are ready to file a lawsuit?
Here’s an interesting example of how little the issue of pilot in command authority is understood by the general public … this is a quote from some minor Minnesota newspaper:
Did you get that? The story is poorly written, but the information is still there. What the reporter meant to say was this: Pilots have always had the authority to remove passengers, and that authority is almost never questioned after the fact.
Why do you suppose that is? Because it’s necessary. For reasons I have already explained in this thread. Because it is essential to the whole paradigm of responsibility for the aircraft and safety.
The pilot is not trained, or expected, to look at the civil rights aspects of the situation, or the fairness aspects. He is not conducting a therapy session. He has minutes in which to make a decision where safety is the only criterion.
In this situation, AS I ALREADY EXPLAINED UPTHREAD, he could have decided to remove passengers simply, and only for the reason that OTHER PASSENGERS WERE UPSET, or based on information given him by other crewmembers or airline employees. He is not required to gather more facts, to hold a hearing, to interview the subjects, to consult a lawyer or a civil rights consultant.
This protocol is there for a reason, and this bullshit story doesn’t even BEGIN to rise to the leve of something that will challenge it. I assure you, pilots are not going to give up their authority to lawyers and “concerned” bloggers.
It isn’t about the “pilot in me” you condescending dolt. It’s about the necessity of one of the oldest rules in the book, which exists for good reason, and cannot be fucked with because your ill-directed sensibilities are injured.
What part of this don’t you get?
Steve
It’s incredibly cute how you make a pilot facing an unruly passenger sound like he’s a Marine pinned down by sniper fire in Fallujah.
If you’re the President of the United States, we need all kinds of checks and balances to make sure you don’t abuse your power. But if you’re the pilot of an airplane waiting to take off, we need to grant you total autonomy or the entire social order will break down.
It’s just so ineffably cute how you can’t even imagine a world where things work any other way. We’ve somehow stumbled upon the one societal constant that can never, ever be altered, and it’s a pilot having unfettered authority to kick people off a plane. Who knew?
Jess
I love the irony of this situation–every year about this time Bill O’Reilly, John Gibson and their cohorts start whining about the secularization of American society and how the secular humanist lefties want all the good religious folks to shut up and keep their religion out of the public sphere. I wonder how they’ll weigh in on people praying at the airport or on planes…
Just a quick comment on JC’s remark:
It’s also an undeniable fact that they were all men, and that the vast majority of violent acts are perpetuated by men, particularly young men. Should women be allowed to demand that stringent policies to curb potential male violence be imposed on men between the ages of 15 and 30? This would make as much sense as, if not more sense than, racial profiling.
scs
I agree with ppgaz that the Captain has ultimate authority. Getting thrown off a plane is not the same as being denied a job or a house. It is a situation that can be shortly remedied with another flight, and I am no lawyer, but I doubt the redress would be as large as in more serious circumstances. Second of all, discrimination is VERY hard to prove even in more serious cirumstances that I mentioned, involving weeks or years of bad treatment, let alone a quick decision on a plane. The captain can point to nervous behaviour of the passengers, such as the unusually “loud” praying which inspired fear in other passengers, as a defense to his actions. Case dismissed.
scs
But lets’ be honest, we should have a rule that a group of individuals, fitting the profile of the terrorists du jour, acting in a group manner, should not be allowed on the plane. Would you want to fly on a plane like that? Be honest.
As much as we like to pretend all humans exist in cultural isolation, we know that this is not true, and humans are mostly pack animals. That’s why, as much as we pretend today we don’t, we all have a responsibilty to act decently to reflect well on the cultures that we are a part of – our town, our school, our country, our race. When members of a certain group don’t act well, the whole group suffers for it, whether fairy or unfairly. Muslims are today suffering for the acts committed by some of their own, and their best response is not complain, but to get involved with their comminuty to make sure such incidents don’t happen again.
pie
That’s a fair point, but it makes me wonder: Why not discriminate against white Christian conservatives, then, on the basis of the actions of Timothy McVeigh and Eric Rudolph? Wouldn’t that make as much sense, following the same rationale? After all, prior to 9/11 the bloodiest terrorist attack on US soil came from Timothy McVeigh. Why haven’t Christian conservatives experienced the same antipathy? (Personally, I think the real reason is “strength in numbers” but that hardly seems fair. After all, if Islam ever demographically overtakes Christianity in America, Christians could expect similar treatment under the same rationale.)
chopper
man, this thread went downhill fast. so some people were davening and wearing tefilin. jesus, in brooklyn i see that sort of stuff almost every day (you don’t wear tefillin on shabbos). learn about religions in america, and you won’t be so surprised.
chopper
jesus, TZ, take a valium.
jake
I’d raise that upper age limit…
However, a side note on male profiling:
Greyhound bus lines no longer allows male passengers to sit in the seats directly behind the driver. This is a clear cut case of sex discrimination but has anyone done anything about it or filed suit? Not to my knowledge, and I imagine the big dog’s argument would be: We’ve got 30 plus passengers and a vehicle that weighs several tons barrelling down the nation’s roads. We found out what happens when a flipped out bastard hits the driver in the head and don’t want it to happen again.
And the courts would hmmm and haw and say, Okay.
Do I like this solution? Not so much. Driver’s currently close themselves off behind a plexiglass gate but apparently that wasn’t enough. So the ideal solution would be to remove those seats altogether, but that would be four tickets gone. However, I imagine it is only a matter of time before a woman attacks the driver and then no one will be allowed to sit there anyway. Hooray for gender parity.
Or not.
RSA
I’m concerned that some people are sitting back and thinking “Yeah, that group is suffering, but it’s not really unfair.” I’m also concerned that when I hear someone say, “whether fairly or unfairly,” this often means that there’s nothing to be done about it.
jake
Allow me to translate:
What they say:
“Yeah, that group is suffering, but it’s not really unfair.”
What they mean:
1. So long as that group doesn’t include my group, I don’t care.
or
2. Hooray! Let’s stick it to the people who differ from us in terms of colour, nationality, religion, etc.
“whether fairly or unfairly,”
1. I can’t be bothered to think about the implications of this or that action. My shows are coming on.
or
2. Who needs guilty until proven innocent? Being different is a crime.
Jill
Last Thursday I was waiting to board a USAirways flight from Philly to Paris and a Muslim woman took out her prayer rug and beads and prayed for about 10 minutes. I was not the only person to see this and nothing of incidence took place. The woman finished praying and boarded the plane which arrived in Paris safely.
Jess
Perhaps there’s a connection?
scs
Humans are all about stereotyping, but it has to reach a critical mass. One incident does not a trend make. White Americans do still have a reputation for cruelty in the world based on their treatment of the Indians and slavery, so it goes both ways.
pie
But they suffer no discernible consequences for that stereotype. Also, it was more than one incident vis-a-vis white men. Oklahoma City, the 1996 Atlanta Olympics bombing, the Unabomber, etc., were all acts of terrorism perpetrated by white men in the 1990s. Yet white men are allowed to board airlines without suspicion or the notification of airline officials.
I think the explanation for all of this lies in the fact that white Christian men currently hold the majority of power in this nation. But if history has taught us anything, it’s that majorities are subject to change- for example, 150-200 years ago, it was virtually for a Catholic to live/work in vast swathes of America, yet now Catholicism is the largest branch of Christianity in America.
If Muslims become the majority 100 years from now, what’s to stop them from citing the example set by Christians if they want to discriminate against Christians at some later date? If our nation is ruled on a simple numerical majority basis, or if power involves trampling all minority rights into dust whenever the majority finds it convenient, how can the demographic-minority Christians of the future deny them this power? If the Constitution doesn’t protect the rights of Muslims when they’re a religious minority, how will it protect the rights of Christians if they find themselves a religious minority in the future?
Darrell
Given the size of our country (220 million + “white christians”?) and the timelines involved, those incidents don’t make anything close to a trend anymore than OJ Simpson makes a trend of black men to murder their wives. Furthermore, those white christian whackjobs (wasn’t Kaczynski an atheist?) were not part of a larger group like Al Queda, who have stated their mission to kill infidels and install Caliphate
Well, that’s one way to look at it if you’re looking for racism to explain everything. But that racism-and-power-explains-all theory would then have to answer why all those old “white Christian men” don’t similarly discriminate against non-white and often non-christian Asians, latinos or blacks on boarding airplanes.
I think that it’s obviously because the number of muslims supporting and committing terrorism is significant, and part of larger organized terrorist group efforts to carry out murder and mayhem.
pie
Sorry, I forgot Unabomber was an atheist. Still a white guy, though. But the militia movement was substantially talked up in the 1990s, especially its connections to right-wing hate groups, etc. In fact, connecitions have been talked up between Al Qaeda and Oklahoma City, as a Googling of “Terry Nichols Al Qaeda” will quickly show.
I’m not sure if the militias were as oft-discussed as Islamism is/was, but they were talked about quite a bit. So why wasn’t anyone afraid to fly in a plane with white guys? (I was about to mention buses, but if it’s true, as someone noted above apparently bus drivers are afraid of all males riding behind them, then I guess that covers white guys, too.) Why doesn’t someone call the cops when a white male is acting “suspiciously”? Especially in light of rumors that Al Qaeda is more likely to use Chechens next time, it would make as much sense, really.
I still think the explanation has to do with the fact that white people are the majority, and also hold most of the levers of power in this country. Try calling the authorities next time you see a white guy praying with a Bible before boarding a plane. I’m pretty sure he won’t be banned from your flight- but you might be. OTOH, if we were in a majority-Muslim nation under sharia law, they might take that more seriously than we take Muslims praying publicly here. Same principle- the majority rules, screw the minority, might makes right. I thought our Constitution and system of government existed to protect the rights of minorities from the tyranny of the majority, but obviously that does not apply in numerous circumstances.
Because they’re not afraid of them on planes. Non-Arabs aren’t stereotyped as plane-blower-uppers. But they ARE afraid when non-whites move into their neighborhoods. If you don’t believe THAT, please provide another explanation for “white flight” in the 1960s-1970s. Why did the suburbs suddenly look so attractive to white people? There may have been other factors, but fear of a non-white neighborhood was a pretty significant one.
And yet we don’t discriminate against white men or women, who are at least as likely as Arab men to be the next terrorist attackers. Also, it’s worth remembering that Mohammed Atta et al disguised their religious convictions to a certain extent prior to the attack, shaving their beards and donning Western-style clothing.
I understand why people have chosen this target group. It’s an easy one to connect to terror, and if the terrorists were as dumb as the people calling in every Muslim sighting as a terrorist attack, it might even work. Unforunately, our enemies are not morons. (Well, for the most part- Richard Reid is one exception that springs immediately to mind. Anyway, he was caught because he was trying to light his foot on fire, not because he was praying.)
I’m drawn to the conclusion that this paranoid xenophobia is probably as ineffective as it is unattractive. It antagonizes American Muslims, it diffuses counterterrorism efforts with innumerable false alarms, and when a real attack comes it’s very unlikely to be detected in advance by these methods. My point is that if we’re going to waste some of our time being frightened of one group, why not at least show a spirit of egalitarianism and waste all of our time being frightened of every group? After all, terrorists could disguise themselves as anyone- white guys in business suits, Hare Krishnas, bikers, Rastafarians, Catholic priests and nuns, Goth kids, Orthodox Jews, you name it. Who the Hell knows? Anyone could be trying to kill us all.
Darrell
Who says they don’t? If a white Pentacostal was praying loudly moving in an agitated fashion in the gate area, people would be similarly alarmed.
There was likely some element of racism to white flight at that time, but the biggest reason by far for the white flight was because of the increase in crime associated with the influx of blacks into the neighborhood. Blacks were, and are, significantly more likely to commit crime than whites. That is statistical fact. Following white flight, there was a significant increase in ‘black flight’ to the suburbs, as middle class black families moved to escape the crime ridden inner cities. Were/are those black families racist against blacks too? It’s too easy and cliched to blame this behavior all on racism.
t. jasper parnell
Evidence? Monkey boy? Is this the new talking point issued from your Chinese overlords?
Jess
According to DOJ statistics, they are SLIGHTLY more likely to be arrested, most often on drug charges, but that is not the same thing as being more likely to commit crime, and they are definitely not “significantly” more likely to do so. The only demographic group that is significantly more likely to commit crime, in particular violent crime, is men between the ages of 15 and 30. In 2002, for example, men committed 88.6% of homicides. I say lock ’em all up and thow away the key.
Darrell
What continually reinforces my convictions, is that leftists like you are so fucking dishonest, that you dispute the most well established facts which don’t fit your politically correct narrative. I figure any group of people that dishonest to the core, can’t be right about much else either.
Darrell
Regarding the utter bullshit lies from “Jess” that blacks are only “slightly” more likely to be arrested – although blacks make up just 13% of the population, they commit 54% of the murders in the US. The white percentages reported by the FBI are skewed upwards because hispanics are lumped in with whites, as the FBI doesn’t make a distinction between whites and hispanics, as this report makes clear.
Again, it is statistical fact that blacks are more likely to commit crime than whites, including violent crime, by LARGE margins relative to their numbers. And all the dishonest politically correct posturing by leftists will not change that fact, no matter how much you lying jackasses keep trying.
t. jasper parnell
So stats from 2001 prove that white flight arose from crimes committed in the future? Bad enough you lie and misrepresent (I am not a leftist) but must you cuss? Baby Jesus and our troops weep when louts lie and traduce.
t. jasper parnell
And, by the way, asking for evidence to support an assertion is not deny its reality but only, you know, asking for evidence. Nitwit.
Darrell
Oh, the delicate sensibilities of the shitstain who floated here calling me “monkey boy”, then wonders why bad words might be used. Fucking asshole.
t. jasper parnell
Sorry but the precentage distribution say 32 white and 37 black wherefrom do you get 54? Do you meant that the 5 percent difference is 54 percent likelihood?
Darrell
Another aspect of leftists, is that they are disproportionately likely (compared to conservatives) to dishonestly characterize their far left views as ‘moderate’ or ‘centrist’. I’ve read a lot of your posts t.jasper. You’re a liberal.. and a damn far left liberal at that. Typical that you’re too dishonest to admit it.
t. jasper parnell
Nice response, monkey boy. But seriously have you stats to support your rants or rely you soley on racism only?
t. jasper parnell
Darelly barrelly boo,
What makes me a leftist?
Darrell
Basic addition and division can be tricky things.. best left to conservatives
t. jasper parnell
Link liar? Or happy to assert in the absence of fact?
t. jasper parnell
So a straight ahead request for illumination is now evidence of illegitimate intentions? Golly goodness me.
t. jasper parnell
You Darrelly barrely boo, are a dope. And one day I hope to meet you, as my dad WWII veteran and semi-pro boxer told an officious nitwit, socially.
Darrell
Not necessarily “illegitimate intentions”, but stupidity.. although judging from your initial “monkey boy” namecalling, I’d guess illegitimate intentions too. I linked to the FBI report which listed total numbers. If you can’t figure it out from there, nothing short of a 3rd grade remedial math course can help you.
Darrell
I see.. You do understand that my daddy could whoop your daddy, do you not?
t. jasper parnell
DArwin, monkey boy, tells us we are all monkey boys, why deny your heritage?
t. jasper parnell
My dad is dead. But I can tell you that as a matter of fact he could not have. My dad fought Kid Gavalan. Yours? And, what is more, come by mine and I’ll kick your’s for free.
t. jasper parnell
STill no evidence for your claims of my leftism or leftist dishonesty? How do you live with your self, the stains of cheetos and the lies, I mean.
t. jasper parnell
By the way, did the pinko commie Chinese offer you a dacha? Or do you do it for the dacha?
t. jasper parnell
Plus and also given that Blacks are overrepresented in the military and you now accuse them of a greater tendency toward crime the question arises: why do you hate our troops, pinko commie Chinese running dog?
Darrell
They are also ‘overrepresented’ in the NBA.. so do you similarly accuse me of hating basketball? I’m just curious as to how dimwitted you truly are.
t. jasper parnell
So, it stands: Darrel hates our troops, denies Darwinian evolution and cannot provide evidence for his most outre claims. Also, he goes from clear statements of fact, we are all monkey boys, to cuss words: nice work leftist, lying monkey boy.
t. jasper parnell
ACtualy the NBA is a matter of ability the military a matter of patriotism, or do you disagree? Perhaps you think that war is sport? I know that you commies think that we patriots are all in thrall to capitalism’s needs, you commie you.
t. jasper parnell
So it gets worse, DArrel thinks that the fine patriots who dedicate their lives to the protection of the constitution are identical with sportsmen. Gad, sir, your hatred of my country knows no bounds.
Darrell
What in the hell does that have to do with blacks committing disproportionately more crime than whites? Are you making up strawmen as part of some class project or something?
Darrell
Your stupidity knows no bounds. I’m out of here.
Jess
Darrell,
I guess you are truly incapable of responding to a dissenting opinion without insults, which is why I generally ignore you. But this is a topic I care about, having seen first-hand, through my connection by marriage to the black community, how often perfectly respectable, law-abiding folk who happen to be black are harrassed, ticketed, or even arrested for little or no reason, so I’ll respond–politely–once again, to your comments. I notice that the statistics you link to do note a rise in the arrest rate of blacks since the last time I checked a year or so ago, but let me point out again that the likelihood of getting arrested and the tendency to commit crime are not identical. It has been shown again and again that blacks are more likely to be arrested and convicted of crimes that whites often get away with (check out the different policies towards crack and cocaine, for example). Are blacks more likely to be implicated in violent crimes? Yes, unfortunately, and that is an issue the black community continues to address. But that was not your original point; you stated that blacks were significantly more likely to commit crime, and that has not been conclusively demonstrated.
My position, by the way, is not driven by my politics (moderately left/libertarian), but by what I’ve learned when I started digging into the issue more deeply.
Also, many, if not most, Hispanics are white or predominently white; the term refers to language and culture, not ethnicity. It’s a flawed term.
t. jasper parnell
Indeed, Darrelly barrelly boo, your hatred of everything for which this country stands shocks the consciences of a nation and forces us to reconsider, although our adoration of the founding fathers precludes acting, the consitutional prohibitation of exile; were it up to me and were I to come face to face with a pinko chinese commie of your ilk the spittal beflecked rejoinder of go back to china would be insuffient, I would strip you of you citizenship and pound your doughlike cheeto hued flesh with the hardened hams of American enraged limbs, neather and upper.
t. jasper parnell
Yes Darrel barrely boo, run back to the sweet arms of the chinese pinko commies. My stout patriotism and deep love of American democracy is more than halfwitted halfmen like yourself can stand. Decry the stout heartedness of our troops and wrap yourself in the amoral, atheistic cant of commie pinko inspired racism, which seeks to divide this great nation of our’s. Your ilk’s divisiness and hatred will never gain ascendency over the good American patriots love of all our citizenry. YOu and and the Chinese can hope to divide but love of country, democracy and freedom unite all true Americans.
Jay
Shorter Darrell: Respect mah racial puritah!
jenniebee
I’m still not clear on one thing from the original Darrell post: why would any person who isn’t into anti-Semetic conspiracy theories about 9/11 and the like think that an Orthodox Jew would have a motive to commit a terrorist act on a US airplane? I mean, the manner of prayer is a total red herring here because it was obvious to Darrel that it was prayer at the time, even if he was unfamiliar with the particularities of it. Darrel, are you seriously saying that an event of Muslim terrorism has given you cause to worry about Jewish copycats?
I could see it if Darrel thought that there was some disguise at work; I’m not terribly in favor of racial profiling because, as was noted before, it’s most likely that terrorists are going to try to blend in with the crowd. It does seem to me, however, that the absolute least likely disguise a Sunni or Shiite is going to be willing to adopt for any cause is that of an active, praying Lubovitch or Hasidic Jew.
Safest guy on the plane, IMHO.
NAW
Perhaps they weren’t behaving as they said they were.
http://www.washtimes.com/national/20061128-122902-7522r.htm
Pietro
NAW,
Their behaviour certainly was suspicious and rightly aroused the attention of the flight marshals:
Still sound like racial profiling?
Darrell
So then, the only rational explanation is anti-semitism on my part, right? Don’t dance around it bitch, come out and say it forthright..