I don’t want to steal Tim’s content, but this is going to be ALL SORTS OF BLOODY:
The woman charged in a federal indictment with running a high-class Washington, D.C. call girl service says she plans to call her prominent clients to testify at her trial.
Jeane Palfrey, dubbed the D.C. Madam, says among those she will call to testify are Randall Tobias, who resigned Friday as deputy secretary of state after confirming to ABC News that he had been a customer of Palfrey’s escort service.
Tobias said he “had some gals come over to the condo for a massage” but denied any sex was involved.
Tobias is the second prominent man to be identified as a customer of the Palfrey’s “sexual fantasy service.” Two weeks ago, Palfrey alleged that military strategist Harlan K. Ullman, creator of the “shock and awe” combat theory and now a scholar with the Center for Strategic and International Studies, was also a customer. Ullman has said that the claim was “beneath the dignity of comment.”
I wish there was a way that only the hypocrites could be named and hurt by this.
grumpy realist
/begin{snark} Maybe the police should only go after the Republicans, considering out “family-friendly” and “anti-prostitution” they are? /end{snark}
Sounds like Palfrey got really, really pissed off at the feds going after her and leaving the johns alone. “If I’m going to go down, I’m not going to be the only one!”
I’d say the only possible non-hypocrites in the mix are the ones pushing for legalization of prostitution.
Pass the popcorn. I don’t have much sympathy for the guys caught up in this.
Punchy
Here’s what I don’t get–if this guy only wanted a massage….well…are there LEGAL massage parlors in existance? Yes, they are.
So why did he feel the need to clandestinely call some secret “madam”–and keep his wife ignorant of such calls–if he only wanted what he could legally get down the street?
This is like a guy claiming he was only seen with a drug dealer becuase he was purchasing regular Marlboros, not Mary Jane. Something tells me he’s either a complete dumbass, or lying.
Dreggas
One mans bloody is another mans fun. I can’t wait to see these fucking hypocrites named and shamed. Hell we should start a big old scarlet letter campaign just for these bunch of asshats.
Nicholas Weaver
Given the level of hypocracy involved, I suspect that EVERYONE named will be a massive hypocrite. So you will get your wish.
Third Eye Open
Can we move the nation’s capitol to Alaska, you ‘re gonna be hard pressed to get call-girls with all their teeth up there.
Macswain
Anybody worried about names coming out of this should be condemning the Bush DOJ for wasting taxpayer dollars on its sexist prosecution of what shouldn’t even be a crime.
Joseph E. Davis
It’s sad that we don’t have enough liberty in this country that sex between consenting adults for money is a crime.
carpeicthus
WHo among the prominent clients isn’t a hypocrite? Is there anyone out there in favor of legalizing prostitution? George Carlin and maybe Ron Paul are safe.
jenniebee
Only hypocrites can ever be harmed by revelation, John. People are rarely hurt by the publicization of the things they’re not ashamed of having done; you can’t blackmail Larry Flynt, donchaknow.
Faux News
“I did NOT have a happy ending massage with that
escortwoman”!Dreggas
speaking of bloody
HyperIon
i don’t understand this attitude of “nothing wrong with consenting commercial sex unless the participant has bashed others for consensual sex”.
what do you call someone who is OK with doing something as long as the “something” remains secret? is he a hypocrite?
people who pay for sex do not want this fact to be known. even if it were legal, they would not want it to be known. it’s about perceived respectability. so one wishes to be perceived as respectable but acts in a way that is not perceived as respectable. hmm…seems hypocritical to me.
Dreggas
Agreed wholeheartedly. Maybe surprisingly I know quite a few feminists out here (California) who agree with that statement as well.
srv
You know, we would have defeated AQ already if we’d deployed a Virgin Corps to Iraq.
Dreggas
You forgot adding “commercial” to the last bit between “Consentual” and “sex”. Maybe then it might make sense. Let’s say Pat Robertson is getting his jollies by paying someone for sex (and no one knows about it) but then goes out and preaches against paying for sex as being sinful. He’s a hypocrite right?
Same goes for a politician who is getting his jollies in the same manner but working on legislation that aims to further criminalize prostitution or “massage” services if you will.
In this administration the prosecution of “sex” has become something almost bordering on obssession. Several people I know were prosecuted falsely (their businesses were legitimate) under witch hunts engaged in by the DOJ based on the 2257 law. Their crime? Complying with the law by placing an address where records such as consent and model age could be obtained. They were subsequently raided, arrested and intimidated into going out of business or facing lengthy trials to prove their innocence which would have caused their business to close since they would have to pay legal fees as well.
This has been going on ever since Abu Gonzales took over the DOJ when he issued a directive stating in effect that they were going to go after adult entertainment and businesses of all stripes, especially the legal ones in an attempt to shut them all down using the power and money of the federal gov’t to do so.
Quite honestly I hope this woman names and shames ’em all. She has the ability to do so. Many innocent people did not, they were targeted because they complied with 2257 and by doing so painted a big fat target on their asses.
Zifnab
Wait, I heard that just made it better?
I know more than a few people who keep consential, marital sex a secret. I was blessed to grow up in a household in which my dad didn’t come flouncing into the dinning room in a speedo bragging about how he totally just nailed his wife.
Even among friends, its generally considered bad form to start a conversation with, “My girlfriend and I fucked like bunnies last night.”
Hypocracy is when you make a living calling people sluts and whores for kissing on the first date when you spend your nights paying for the Dirty Sanchez Triple Decker Combo with your paychecks.
curtadams
Brian Ross says Tobias thought ordering $300/hour massages was like ordering pizza
I want to know what Italian restaurant Tobias goes to, and if they have franchises.
bud
At this point, it would behoove the court to demand the list and to publish it in its entirety.
Right now, I see the equivalent of a hijacker tossing dead bodies out the door to prove that they’re serious about wanting that fuel and takeoff clearance. She’s tossed out a few names, and she’s going to toss out a few more until she gets a pass.
Get the book and publish it. Allowing her to keep it and continue this little game is a mockery of the court, and seizing the book but not publishing the contents makes the court look like its protecting someone.
I think that *ALL* the hypocrites need exposure. Let the chips fall.
BTW, I am a small l libertarian, and, yes, I think that a woman should be able to commercialize her assets with no legal liability.
John Spragge
I second the comment by jenniebee; by definition, these revelations will only directly harm hypocrites. Spouses and other significant others affected by this person’s claims don’t have to believe them.
I don’t know whether or not the government should legalize prostitution, or legalize some form of prostitution and not others. I do know this, however: we have a respectable body of evidence that using prostitutes fuels human trafficking for sex, a very ugly series of crimes. However you propose to deal with this problem, I believe a decent person has an obligation to avoid doing things that would make this problem worse. And I think that in most cases, this means staying away from escort services and brothels.
Tim F.
Heh. I bet the GOP didn’t include Ms. Palfrey’s unique defense strategy in their Permanent Majority calculations.
Zifnab
Honestly, I don’t know. I’ve always looked at prostitution like I look at child labor. On the surface, there’s nothing wrong with an 8-year-old running a lemonade stand. But if commercial businesses could hire 8-year-olds to run lemonade stands at a profit, I immediately see a serious problem here.
The last thing this country needs is a McFuck.
Tim F.
My opinion, we should tax and license it. For me it works about the same as abortion – things that will happen at about the same rate whether they’re legal or not should be regulated so that at least they happen safely.
Tulkinghorn
The DOJ has seized her assets so she can not afford legal representation. When she tried to sell the list to anyone who wanted it, the DOJ went to court and had that blocked. So all she is left with is exactly what she has done – publish it for free, in dribs and drabs to maximize exposure, and hope the Johns publicly support her.
The court has let the DOJ bully her around shamelessly, so the court deserves the mockery. In fact, we all deserve the mockery for allowing such stupid laws on the books and such stupid lawyers to enforce them.
HyperIon
Zifnab,
I think there’s a pretty clear distinction between bragging about something and wanting no one to ever know about it. surely you can grasp the difference.
and dreggas, i’m sticking with my original wording. Tobias’ emphasis on faithfulness to partners and abstinence over condom use in trying to prevent the spread of the AIDS virus had nothing to do with commericality.
the moral is: as one is about to put one’s hand in the cookie jar, one should think carefully about the possibility of a photo of this act being published at some future date.
Dreggas
I so don’t want to know if he ordered that combo with…cheese.
Tsulagi
I bet the federal prosecutor going after Palfrey is thinking “Oops” about now.
Prostitution? Legalize it. If there is any war you’d more likely never win than the War on Drugs it would certainly be the War on Sex.
Dreggas
Oh I am sure they didn’t nor did they take into consideration a lot of things. Their biggest setback on the whole issue of 2257 was that they tried to go after AdultFriendFinder because there was adult content posted by users on the site. They tried to have it shut down but lost in court because the site was not responsible for the content (in this case) posted by users unless said content violated the law (which it did not).
This really was a setback because if the court had said the opposite then that would have led to the DOJ being able to go after other companies that did allow adult content on their servers. In fact it would probably have led to targetting of Hosting companies because, by the DOJ logic, the host would also be responsible for content posted on their servers.
Having been burned there the DOJ has instead targetted the smaller mom and pop operations. Those who can’t afford a full defense team and who will be shut down just based on the legal fees.
Dreggas
Au contraire it has everything to do with sex, commercial or otherwise. This man went out and spread the bush doctrine of “faithfulness” to partners and “abstinence” over condom use all the while procuring the services of the “massage” girls thereby not practicing what he preached, one of the most basic definitions of hypocrisy. Add to that the fact that there appears to be more than “massages” going on here he violated the tenets of “abstinence only”. About the only way this POS comes out not looking like a hyporcite, at least as far as the sex itself is concerned is if he:
A) wasn’t married or in another relationship where sex was involved.
B) Only used the services of one and only one girl all of the time (by his own admission he didn’t).
All evidence seems to say this was not the case.
Dreggas
funny…republicans gave us both…
Chad N. Freude
Several posters have spelled “hypocrisy” as “hypocracy”. I normally wouldn’t comment on that — I save my snark for the important stuff — but in this case it strikes me as amusing that we are living not in a democracy but in a hypocracy. We are governed by the Hypocrats of the Bush administration.
Tsulagi
Umm, nope.
As far as A is concerned, Tobias and the rest of the family values choir say abstinence is the only acceptable course when not married.
For B, see A.
It is funny this guy was the administration lay preacher for faithfulness and abstinence. You gotta give them credit, they really go above and beyond in providing comedy value.
Krista
Dude, my 6-year-old nephew would see through that one.
I don’t give a sweet damn if a single guy goes to a hooker. That’s his business. But, if a married man screws around on his wife, all the while acting like he’s so much more virtuous than everybody else, then he deserves to be publicly named and shamed.
Dreggas
O/T but this is a must read
Dreggas
I was tempted to add a C where “abstinence only” would negate A and B since the only exception to “abstinence only” is marriage.
Dreggas
It was the “Haggard defense”.
Chad N. Freude
From the ABC News item:
This is a non-denial denial, just like Pete Domenici’s denial of DOJ interference. Why in hell don’t they just lie outright? Oh, yeah, because that would be hypocritical.
Leader Desslok
Legalize and regulate prostitution.
With these sort of witch hunts the vast majority of the people hurt are usually decent folks who never did anything to hurt anyone.
Zifnab
Hangs head in mispelled shame.
Does that mean they’re all doctors?
grumpy realist
I’m in favor of legalizing prostitution for one very simple reason:
Prostitution has always been around, and we’ve always been shaming the women involved and letting the men get off scott-free. Legalizing prostitution makes it much easier to monitor, health-wise, makes it much safer for women working in the profession, and makes it much easier for women to get out of being prostitutes and into other work.
Yeah, most women who go into prostitution usually have pretty nutty backgrounds (family abuse, rape) and there is the question as to whether this isn’t just enabling some pretty psychically toxic behavior–but these women would probably be doing something like this anyway, so at least we can make sure they have at least a modicum of safety and protection (plus offer therapy as a side benefit of employment?)
Funny thing is–there is one historical method of allowing prostitution which doesn’t seem to have toxic psychic effects for all around, but in our Judeo-Christian culture it would be completely impossible.
I refer, of course, to Holy Prostitutes.
Cyrus
I’ve seen this elsewhere as well. How common is it? If the DOJ bent the rules to do it, or stuck to the letter of the law but invoked a little-known clause unfairly and aggressively, does Palfrey have any legal recourse? If moves like this are the only way they ever manage to actually nail white collar criminals or Mafia-like organized crime, I guess it makes sense to have the practice exist. At first glance, though, this sounds like an offensive and egregious abuse of power in general, and even more so in this case.
Also, from the link:
This may not be true, of course – News flash, defendant claims innocence!!! – but if it is, take heart, it doesn’t necessarily mean the show is over. In fact, the story may be even more hilarious than we thought. I can only think of two kinds of things that could be described as “sexual fantasy but not illegal sex.” One is massage, which as someone else has pointed out, would for the most part take place in massage parlors without any great secrecy or controversy surrounding it.
The other is BDSM.
Chad N. Freude
I thought of that, too, after I posted. They certainly appear to have taken some kind of oath, because they all behave in exactly the same way.
Dreggas
Before you even said it I was thinking it. Glad to see I am not the only one who knows about these aspects of religious history.
Dreggas
I am quite active in the above community. Believe me it is one “service” that seems to be pretty darn popular among the political/high powered people. It’s also how I learned about 2257.
See good ol Gonzales made a point of not going after “normal” adult business but after those deemed most likely to get convictions, those who proferred “deviant” activities, especially BDSM.
Scruffy McSnufflepuss
If the Bush Administration ever becomes a Church, I’m sure it’ll have those.
Chad N. Freude
Now there’s a thought. These guys spend every waking hour pushing people around, maybe they need to be on the receiving end to live a balanced life.
Leader Desslok
Those are all good reasons, but not the reason I most want to legalize it:
I like sex.
As for all the other stuff, well, as many have noted the problems which surround prostitution could be greatly alleviated if it were brought into the mainstream and regulated. I am not aware of any profession which is not plagued by some form of corruption or social problems, so it’s not as if working in field other than prostitution guarantess you a happy and untroubled life. Nothing does.
Many women who engage in prostitution have a life outside of “the hobby”, as some refer to it. Many have jobs families like the rest of us, but every so often they like to get freaky with people for money. It happens.
I’m not quite sure what that means, but I totally like the sound of it. Great minds…
Punchy
Like it matters. 151 guys named….followed by 151 “denial” and “she’s lying” responses. MSM then pretends like both are equally credible, and claims it all a wash. Like it never happened.
Dreggas
Oh and let’s not forget the catholic churches own history with prostitution. I can’t recall the pope but there was an early pope of the catholic church that allowed brothels to be run out of the church.
Tax Analyst
Hmmmm…I wonder if Tobias was seeing her for “humiliation”. If so, she should send him an additional billing for services rendered…
Chad N. Freude
Tobias is the hyppest of the Hypocrats. Check out this story in Slate.
The money quote, from an interview he gave on Frontline (talking about the ABC program for AIDS prevention):
I am overcome with laughter.
Dreggas
But given our tabloid culture and guilty before proven innocent mentality the public will believe that she is telling the truth even in the cases where she isn’t.
Chad N. Freude
Amazing! No one has yet posted the obligatory
Oops, I just broke the silence..
DougJ
She’s just trying to sell books, people.
If she thinks these guys are all scum for using her services, then why did she accept that Medal of Freedom?
Tax Analyst
Chad, so you mean to tell me Clinton arrived with the Escort Service brigade and whipped Tobias’s ass – or did he just give instructions/suggestions?
Chad N. Freude
Nothing like that, dude, just following the blog ritual. But now that you mention it, Clinton didn’t have to pay for it, so I guess he wins.
Dreggas
I am snickering here…you’d be surprised…
Chad N. Freude
Dreggas, I think you lead a more interesting life than I do.
Dreggas
I lead a very interesting life. I figure I have only one life I might as well live it to the max and try to enjoy every damn minute of it. This is of course why I do something I love for work, and do many many things I love for play.
Dreggas
Many ancient religions (those not controlled by the idea of a Patriarchy) held the Feminine to be sacred and there were Goddess’ whose rituals required sex as part of worship and some whose priestess’ were on the one hand holy women and on the other prostitutes.
The wife wrote about this somewhere if I could only get my hands on it I could post more.
Chad N. Freude
Seriously OT, but this merits attention.
Dug Jay
One sidelight being reported has it that a DC-area blogger named “Willis” was refused service because of what was termed “an excessive of body weight” by the DC Madam.
Dreggas
and this matters WHY exactly?
grumpy realist
That’s why it would be very hard for anyone to recreate any group of sacred prostitution. (Quite a few occult groups go in for sacred sex, etc.) We’ve got 2000 years of cultural brain pollution to get rid of before we could honestly believe in holy prostitution (and the Catholic Church would be pitching a fit the entire way.) Just as our ideas about homosexuality are completely different from that of the ancient Greeks.
Dreggas, you bring up an interesting point. Within a lot of the traditional Christian religions, sin seems to hover about sex and whether it is carried out in a “licit” or “illicit” manner. Within the BSDM community, from what I’ve heard it appears the unforgivable sin is to not back off when the “safe word” is given.
Is this true? How is this policed? Punished within the BSDM community? Is the perpetuator simply “not let in” to any further activity?
(I was reminded of this because there was a court case in NYC some time ago which was a case of rape/assault within the BSDM community between a couple that had a previous history of similar games. The guy was found guilty, which I remember some of the commentators found interesting–the people on the jury were sophisticated enough to understand the difference between behavior-controlled-with-a-safe-word and behavior-definitely-not-controlled-with-a-safe-word.)
grumpy realist
John, can you post something about the Iraqi government two month vacation thing? I thought it had been raised, then trashed. (It’s also what has been pushing more than one Republican in Congress towards “let’s start putting some timetables down ASAP.”)
As said, if we keep pulling their nuts out of the fire, they won’t have any incentive to address the problem.
Dreggas
In a word Yes. With an explanation the principle guiding those of us in the community are what we call Safe Sane and Consentual. Nothing is done without Consent and yes a safe word is almost always involved.
Obviously what we do involves (most times) pain and some of the activities, if done wrong, can lead to death etc. So at these events we have what we call DM’s or Dungeon Monitors, people who watch all that occurs at an event and do intervene if necessary (that is at any event not taking place in ones private home). Further most are trained in CPR and First Aid and many, believe it or not, are medical professionals themselves.
In fact I just finished attending (as a DJ) a convention for the professional Female Domination (aka the dominatrix) at which there were courses for CPR and First Aid certification as well as workshops for the safe conduct of what we call ageplay.
In the interest of not weirding people out (or weirding out my welcome) I am available on yahoo messenger under this same nick if people want to talk LOL.
Andrew
Man, I could really go for a Starbucks, y’know?
Formerly Wu
Indeed. For one, nowadays only adults are involved.
Zifnab
Sounds like your typical Presidential Weekend to me. These Iraqis are picking up on the Democracy thing surprisingly quick.
I will never look at my proctologist the same way again.
Dreggas
Or the EMT taking you to the Hospital or the nurse or…well just about anyone.
Dreggas
Just a Latte or do you want the complete Latte?
Krista
Exactly. Some of the most straitlaced-looking people are those who get the freakiest behind closed doors. And if he was going to la madam for BDSM, then that might explain it a bit — maybe his wife wasn’t interested, or maybe he had a (very typical) Madonna/whore complex, and felt that a nice woman like her wouldn’t be interested in getting kinky, and so only subjected her to lights-out, Saturday-night missionary position-style humpage.
Tax Analyst
Wow, I almost accidently did a “block & copy/paste” on every comment from this one back to the top…that would have looked really asinine…
…anyway, I have to admit that I really didn’t expect you to surprise me very much…but you did…not to mention substantially furthering my education in a couple different areas. Always a pleasure to be made more knowledgeable. Thanks!
Well, gotta run…”Summer” hours for me in the Tax Product biz…short days and lot’s of time for other stuff…Hallelujah…
Dreggas
Yep that’s the reasons we hear all the time. Wife’s not into it, hubbie is too chicken to bring it up with her.
Of course there is the psychological aspect as well. It seems the number of people in high power positions (both male and female) seems to be directly proportional to those who go to businesses offering BDSM services. Then there are those who seek out the professional submissives, not just the dominatrices.
Dreggas
Shock and Awe baby, Shock and Awe LOL!
Really there is little that surprises me anymore given what I have seen and done over my life and especially with regard to the people I’ve met. You are most welcome!
Tax Analyst
Good points, Krista…but he probably should have refrained from positioning himself as a “Family-Values” type-guy.
Hmmm…on the other gloved hand, well, I supposed BDSM IS (or can be?) a form of “abstinence”, at least as regards to insemination…I guess…
…really gotta go now
Dreggas
Yep….
Dreggas
Then there is Nugget in which Cheney is implicated in the forged uranium memos as well…all I can say to McGovern is release the evidence damn it.
Krista
Well exactly. And if he was doing this behind his wife’s back, then that’s just wrong too. It would be one thing if he brought it up, and she wasn’t into it, but through open communication, they eventually came to some sort of understanding that he could get his whuppin’s elsewhere, as long as no sex was involved.
I’m suspecting that this isn’t the case, though.
Chad N. Freude
Did you read the Crooks & Liars item? It’s not funny. The troops, whom we libs don’t support, are NOT TAKING A TWO MONTH RECESS. The Iraqi parliament is supposed to be reaching a consensus that will enable the US to leave. (Yeah, right.) A parliamentary hiatus means no progress to bringing that about. (Like they’re making so much progress when they’re in session.) This recess is a real slap in the face for the US.
Dreggas
Oh believe me the majority are too chicken shit to fess up to their wives etc. That’s why they get a guarantee up front of “no marks left”. Of course I know many whose wives are in the know and have consented but they are the exceptions to the rule.
Krista
No doubt. I guess it’s always a good idea to find a spouse who shares your interests, then. Particularly if your interest in a particular activity is so strong that you’d go behind your spouse’s back in order to be able to engage in it. Wouldn’t it be nice if everybody who had a passion, be it BDSM, monster truck rallies, or creative topiary, could find someone who shared their passion? :)
MNPundit
What I find very interesting is that apparently there were higher-up women in Washington that were–crudely speaking–whoring themselves out.
Those are the names I’m interested in. Let me also say that if there aren’t any democrats in this I will be astonished. F’in astonished. Like Josh Marshall said, nothing is more bipartisan than a sex scandal.
Zifnab
Don’t they have, like, a little vice for your nuts? Maybe that’s what Frist and Brownback et. al are really working towards.
Dreggas
Yep
Dreggas
It’s called Alt.com or in my case Yahoo Groups :D
D. Mason
I hope you’re not suggesting that Clinton never paid for sex, you know he did. Personally, I would be dissapointed if he hadn’t.
Dreggas
oh as for a vice, yes they have one, oddly enough it’s called a vice :D.
Thus proving the old addage “if you can think it we can kink it”.
Tulkinghorn
If Monica Goodling is on that list we are going to have the Harmonic Convergence of the century. We could always start a rumour to that effect, just for fun.
Dreggas
don’t you know the Clenis don’t pay for sex, people pay the Clenis.
Dreggas
I can see it now, she paid to be a naughty DOJ lawyer who got beat by “The Judge”.
tBone
And if it weren’t for that meddling Lewinsky kid, he would have gotten away with it, too.
Pooh
I’d normally bristle at this, but when he’s got you, he’s got you. Well played, sir.
DougJ
I’m getting this image of one of the hookers dressed up as a prosecutor (think Jill Hennessy in L&O) saying “I’ve been bad girl, daddy, I didn’t prosecute any Democrats.”
28 Percent
You are all so giddy about this but there will be egg all over youre face when you find out that the good epople you LIEBERALS are calling “hypocrites” (the only “sin” you believe in) were really just taking these girls home and trying to bring them to Jesus.
For shame!
grumpy realist
28 Percent, well done trollishness. (Even down to including a link that debunks the claim it supposedly proves.)
I’d prefer to call it a “Swaggart.”
yet another jeff
The new honor is actually the Pearl Necklace of Freedom.
Decided FenceSitter
Or collarme.com, or any number of kink personal sites. Or you know, go to any one of the kink groups in the area. There are two in DC, one in West Virginia, and one in Charlottesville.
BR member since 2004.
*Grin* And some of us who have wives who help.
canuckistani
I find myself conflicted by the difference in scale I’m seeing between sin and punishment here. I don’t deal with professional sex workers, but I know people who do, and I can’t help seeing it as a pretty small crime to have your political career wrecked for. If the madam was ratting out her johns to their wives, that would be a more appropriate punishment to my mind.
Of course, all bets are off if the politician has ever stumped for “family values”. Then, public humiliation and ruined careers are not enough. They should be branded with a big scarlet “A” for “asshole”.
Focus On Your Own Damn Family!
And you just know he leaves his missus hanging.
Dreggas
Collarme.com is one of the better ones, at least IMO. Fewer mouth breathers etc. and even guys get free memberships whereas alt is just the kinky adultfriendfinder.
I am a member or participate in many of the groups out here in the L.A. area, quite a few Leather groups and also a TNG (The Next Generation) group for up and coming kinksters.
It’s why my wife is, well, my wife VBEG. Of course I am on the receiving end LOL.
Dreggas
Well that depends which one does the rope work LOL.
Krista
Who knows…maybe she’s got her own kink that she’s not sharing with him?
Dreggas
it does tend to be a two way street LOL.