I almost made it through the damned day without blogging about the primary, but then MSNBC had to highlight this interview with Hillary on FOX:
Clinton’s campaign has argued for seating the Michigan and Florida delegations, which were stripped after those states held early primaries in violation of party rules. Recent efforts to hold re-votes in those states have fallen through.
Clinton won both of those states’ primaries in January, though none of the candidates campaigned. Obama was not even on the ballot in Michigan.
Clinton said, barring a resolution on Florida and Michigan, the fight goes to convention.
“You know, you can always go to the convention. That’s what credential fights are for,” she said. “Let’s have the Democratic party go on record against seating the Michigan and Florida delegations three months before the general election? I don’t think that will happen. I think they will be seated. So that’s where we’re headed if we don’t get this worked out.”
Not only is she still lying about Florida and Michigan and the fact that she, herself, chose to agree those delegates did not count initially, but she is now threatening a credential fight at the convention.
She doesn’t give a shit about the party, she wants the nomination and she will blow up the Democratic party if she has to get it. I can’t figure out what irritates me more- that she is blaming Obama for Michigan and Florida, or that she is lying about her former position.
Fortunately, North Carolina may end this nonsense:
Hillary Clinton desperately needs to claim more white votes if she is to win a desperately needed primary by taking the Democratic presidential contest in North Carolina May 6.
But with five weeks to go, undecided whites likely to vote in that primary are, if anything, slowly moving to Obama’s column, or may be ready to.
Here are the results of our North Carolina poll from Wednesday night:
“If you are voting in the Democratic primary and the election were held today, who would you vote for?”
Barack Obama (49%)
Hillary Clinton (34%)
Undecided (17%)
In other primary news, the fat cats in bed with Hillary and attempting to blackmail Pelosi are, quite literally, in bed with Hillary:
At least 6 of the 20 big Dem donors who are now threatening to exort Nancy Pelosi on behalf of Hillary slept in the Lincoln Bedroom while Bill and Hillary were in the White House.
The end of the Clinton era is near, but no doubt they are going to make their exit as ugly as possible.
scrutinizer
Tim P.
It’s like a trainwreck man.. except the train has 300 million (6.6 billion?) passengers.
BH Buck
That certainly makes sense.
Dulcie
What was Hillary doing on Faux?
BH Buck
Why does Lieberman hang with McCain?
Zifnab
Quit saying that. What’s Hillary going to do? Take her ball and go home? Yeah, right. The DLC was the party of Republican-Lite. But no one is voting Republican this election, so she’s got all the weight of an anorexic at a pie eating contest.
Hillary backers are shriveling up every time she throws another temper tantrum. By the convention, it’ll just be her and myiqLuvULongThyme trying to explain why everyone else in the room doesn’t count.
zack
Here’s the best quote:
“I don’t think that the nominee of the party will be considered legitimate if we don’t figure out how to count those votes from Michigan and Florida.”
If Obama wins, it won’t be legitimate.
Is it any wonder why so many Hillary supporters are voting McCain if Obama gets the nomination?
And yes, Bill Clinton praised McCain again today for his efforts on global warming.
The Clintons take every opportunity to sing the praises of McCain. It’s gotten so bad that some right-wingers now fear a McCain/Clinton Unity 08 ticket.
Ted
Sweet! Troll bait for Myiq, pluk, and F. They’ll be along shortly.
Dennis - SGMM
I was struck by Clinton’s deep concern about the voters from Michigan and Florida at the same time her campaign was asserting that even pledged delegates could vote for whomever they want. So, don’t disenfranchise Florida and Michigan but, it’s okay to disenfranchise the rest of us.
Dulcie
Why do fools fall in love?
slippy hussein toad
Why doesn’t the Party leadership leave a severed horse’s head on her pillow or something? Jesus. This is ENOUGH BULLSHIT.
merrinc
I think she will get her ass handed to her in NC and was on my way to do my part to help in that effort but since driving on the interstate without causing wrecks is apparently beyond the capabilities of many around here, I was unable to get to the fucking organizing meeting. I will however, start registering voters on Saturday morning since it doesn’t involve getting on the damn interstate 6 lane parking lot.
BTW, I am relatively new to B-J but it has become my very most favorite blog. It would enhance my productivity greatly though if y’all could occasionally be just a little less interesting.
Ted
This is how the Clintons operate. They barrage you with bullshit to the point you’re just blinded by it. It worked quite well when Bill was in office, and I have always thought that one awesome thing about a Hillary presidency would be the thorough ass-kicking the Clintons’ vindictive nature would deal to the GOP. But there are more important national priorities than that.
Brachiator
I mentioned in an earlier thread one of the reasons why Senator Clinton and her supporters were so desperately fighting for her nomination.
Seems downright prophetic…
slippy hussein toad
What worries me about that is that it would be petty, vindictive, and certain to draw a counter-attack that would continue to spiral out of control. I do not want our national dialogue to be a back-and-forth between two sets of jeering toddlers, which is what it’s devolved to since Reagan.
Obama has the ability to neutralize his opponents’ arguments without rancor or churlishness. It’s precisely this quality that is getting Republicans to cross the aisle in his favor.
BH Buck
“Dubya’s low rent Republican Christian family values cornpone”
Love it!
Rick Taylor
You missed this part of her quote:
Hoo boy.
demimondian
This won’t end well.
BH Buck
Rick Taylor, wonder what she means by that? Is enough to give one pause…
BH Buck
demimondian, I contemplated replying: I’ll try.
hehehe
Ted
I completely agree, and he’s amazing at it, and would be better for the job. I was just expressing a guilty pleasure (seeing the GOP humiliated as they have neutered the Democratic party for the last 8 years).
Delia
If indeed, as some have speculated, the Clinton plan is the exercise the Tonya Harding option, kneecap Obama for the general election, wait around for Prez McClain to make a general hash of things and then offer up Hillary as a savior in 2012, I think it’s pretty bad thinking. Not only will whatever’s left of the Democratic Party be thoroughly sick of Clintons by then, I’m not sure there will be much left of the country after a couple more wars and a Depression to wade through.
Incertus
Want a sure fire way the Florida and Michigan delegations will be seated? Have Obama win Pennsylvania, or get it to within 5 points, and then swamp most of the rest of the seats. The supers will finish the thing off before Puerto Rico, and Obama can be magnanimous and let the two delegations be seated as is.
Leo
“The power to destroy a thing is the absolute control over it.”
–Dune, Frank Herbert
gypsy howell
Just as John has had his eyes opened about the Republican party over the last few years, so too have I had my eyes opened about the Clintons. I spent the 90s defending them (though I wasn’t real involved in the issues- I just thought the incessant attacks on them, including the whole blow job thing, were ridiculous)
Now I’m starting to question my support for them.
Good job Hillary.
georgia pig
Turns out the only thing Obama was wrong about was when he said that HRC was “likeable enough.” But then again, he probably was being sarcastic. As for the Tonya Harding strategy, the worm is turning. Iraq will be a bigger fucking mess by November, and McCain will lose in a landslide. Bloomberg sees that, and Mikey ain’t no dummy.
ntr Fausto Carmona
What Zifnab said. Its all over save for Dean and the other party leaders bringing this thing to a close that will at least mollify Clinton’s supporters. If it means letting Clinton self-destruct while playing the primaries out – well, that’s what she wants, that’s what she gets.
Tsulagi
You just can’t quit her, can you? Even for a day. j/k
marjowil
Believe me, speaking from Michigan, every time she talks about how concerned she is about my precious vote (against her), I feel like screaming or vomiting or both. I voted “uncommitted” when many stayed home, just so I could keep her from claiming a “Michigan victory,” which the pro-Obama and pro-Edwards folks correctly predicted. My hubby crossed over to vote for Mittens on the advice of the Great Orange Satan.
The only reason I wanted a revote was because I am sure Michigan would go Obama and humiliate her. But her lobbying for a revote and lining up only her own supporters to pay for it gave Michiganders a bad taste in their mouths, killing the chances for her bought-and-paid-for election. And today, a federal judge said that the scheme to share primary voter rolls with only the GOP and Dems (and no one else) was unconstitutional. Without the ability to screen out the true-blue Dem voters from the crossovers like my husband, the revote becomes impossible under DNC rules.
So fine, I just wish she’d STFU about Michigan now. I used to be able to tolerate her, but now the aversion factor is nearing my reaction to seeing Dubya lying about everything from Iraq “success” to the economy jumping back after we get our piddling rebates.
But I have to admit, it’s oddly mesmerizing watching this primary meltdown, kind of like watching a car crash. The payoff, sooner or later, will be her ultimate slapdown. That is, if the Dems and the country survive this slow-motion self-immolation.
Incertus
And yet, marjowil, to hear some Clinton supporters tell it, if the FL/MI delegations aren’t seated as is, the Dems are going to have a bunch of pissed off Dems ready to revolt come December. Any sign of it up there? I don’t see anything like that down here, outside of a few big talking pols.
Blue Raven
As another newbie to BJ (found my way here thanks to Greenwald), I have to agree with this while still being very glad to have the distraction. I feel like I’m being rescued from HuffPo.
Sojourner
With all the hand wringing going on here, why hasn’t Obama been able to close the deal?
It’s all well and good to rail against the evil Hillary, but the question is rather obvious, isn’t it?
zoe kentucky
Ugh. I too was a Clinton supporter and loathed the VRWC for their relentless, absurd attacks on the Clintons and depicting them as unapologetic modern Machiavellis.
Now I can’t help but wonder if they were onto something that I just couldn’t see. Either that or the Clintons are far dumber than I thought for living up to every negative stereotype ever invented or exaggerated about them.
I hope Obama kicks ass in Pennsylvania and puts an end to all of this.
Dennis - SGMM
One of the great ironies is that the Dems have little chance of taking Florida anyway – no matter who the nominee is.
zoe kentucky
He can’t close the deal because she refuses to see the writing on the wall and the MSM is feasting on the spoils from the civil war she has started in the party.
If the situation were reversed Obama would have been gone long ago. It’s as if there are different rules for the Clintons than everybody else.
jake
No. SA2SQ Vol. Eleventyhundred.
I’m not even certain a question can be obvious. Answers, yes. Questions … ?
But maybe it would help if you defined “The Deal,” that is in need of closing.
slippy hussein toad
Ted, as much as I too would love to see the people who have intentionally shipwrecked our country running for the hills come January, in the end most of them were tools for a few jaded elites. Those jerks’ uppance will come.
Sojourner
It’s my understanding that there is a fixed number of delegates which, if one “wins,” it guarantees the nonimation. I believe that number is 2,024.
MBunge
“With all the hand wringing going on here, why hasn’t Obama been able to close the deal?”
Why do about 30% of the American public still think George W. Bush is doing a fine job as President?
How many time has an incumbent been denied his party’s Presidential nomination? Well, Hillary is as close to an incumbent seeking renomination as you can get without actually having won it the first time. Let’s remember that before the MUP broke out of the stable, they were just going to hand the nomination to her without even looking at perfectly viable candidates like Dodd, Biden, Richardson or Edwards.
Mike
The Disgruntled Chemist
That is indeed one hell of a quote, but I can’t find it in the Fox article. Am I missing something?
Helena Montana
Aravosis (well, Joe Sudbay, really) has a link at AmericaBlog to give to DCCC via Act Blue–would you consider doing such a thing, John? They posted the link at 5:56 this afternoon and have raised $805 from 21 supporters (including me). Wouldn’t it be nice to make Hillary’s blackmailing backers irrelevant by having the grass roots make up what Hillary’s pals are threatening to withhold? Let’s take back the Democratic party!
Sojourner
You didn’t answer my original question.
Rarely Posts
I’ll admit, Hillary’s motives on Florida and Michigan aren’t pure. But she’s still correct. Florida, if not Michigan, is a swing state. And from my reading, many people in Florida are pissed that our votes won’t count. Pissed enough to swing toward McCain. I know it’s hard for people on blogs to understand, but the vast majority of voters aren’t politically astute. And McCain, in Florida at least, is just as good a candidate as either of the Dems. And believe you me, Floridians will go for McCain.
It’s in our own best interests, as Democrats, to solve the Florida voting fiasco.
The Disgruntled Chemist
Never mind. I found it in a round-up of quotes from the interview. Fox just doesn’t have it in their summary for some reason. I wonder why?
demimondian
Um, Soj? Perhaps, you know, Obama *has* closed the deal?
At this point, the only way that Clinton can win is to fight a credentials fight on the convention floor. She won’t win it, and she’ll guarantee that her name is tarnished forever, but, hey, she’ll have fought the battle.
ACK
A more important question, at least I beleive, is how does Hillary close the deal?
Looking at the math that we have now there is really only one way. And that is if Obama implodes.
In the meantime, we have the steadily growing unfavorable ratings, a fractured party, and the increasing probabilty that the we have yet again snatched defeat from the jaws of victory.
Sojourner
Really? Then why the hysteria that continues to pervade BJ.
Sojourner
The reality is that neither one can close the deal without help.
ACK
And would you say that there is an even chance for both?
Krista
Why do
birdsturds suddenly appear?Sojourner
That’s not what I’m asking. My original question, which no one has chosen to address in any meaningful way, is why hasn’t Obama closed the deal?
Reading BJ, one would think he was the second coming. So why is he struggling?
Susan
Another Michigan Dem here. There is no great groundswell of anger towards the DNC about the delegations. m Mostly people seem confused, to the extend it is discussed at all. We have bigger things to worry about, at least down here in Detroit.
jake
Oh, I get it. We’re not allowed to mention She Who Must be Obeyed unless we do it in calm, measured tones.
OMG, why can’t Hillary close the deal!?
Did that sound hysterical?
And given the etymology of the word hysteria, would it be fair to say that only a sexist would use the word?
I think so, and I don’t have a womb so any broad who disagrees can iron my shirt.
John Cole
Because neither one of them can. However, of the two of them, one of them already has an insurmountable delegate lead, won the popular vote, and won the most states. The other is threatening to blow up the convention unless super-delegates give her the win.
And you know that damned well, and are coming in here acting like reacting negatively to Clinton’s BS somehow makes Obama supporters look bad. When did you Clinton supporters begin channeling your inner Red State? Seriously? if the roles were reveresed Obama would have left the race a long time ago, and the media would not be playing this game. And once again, you know that damned well.
cbear
No offense, but that’s like asking why shit stinks.
ACK
Not that this will answer your question. But I was reading something the other day and came across the headline that Hillary was leading by 33 points in the national poll. This was in October of 2007.
Now, you can characterize Obama as struggling. What I find remarkable is how he overcame almost insurmountable odds to get where he is.
But that is my perception, and you have yours. And that’s where we are.
Sojourner
Why are you so confident that the same comment can’t be made with reference to Obama?
The reality, as we all know, is that neither one can make it without help.
Why is that?
Martin
Superdelegates aren’t ‘help’ by admission of both sides and how the game is played. But Clinton has argued that 2,024 isn’t the game anyway since the pledged delegates can change their vote and since FL/MI should be seated.
The truth is that, according to Clinton, there is no goal until the convention says it’s done. Now, I can accept that she needs to keep offering hope and downplaying the odds here, but she can’t be undermining the validity of the nomination.
Here’s the video where that quote comes from. Note that it’s a pro-Clinton site highlighting the comment, so there is buy-in that Obama will not be a valid nominee if Clinton loses. Playing this up as some kind of repeat of the 2000 election is not helping the party in any way.
Sojourner
I voted in the primary for Obama.
Perhaps it’s time to stop treating the Clinton supporters as evil. Perhaps it’s time to reach out to them and convince them WHY Obama is the best candidate.
Xenos
I was discussing the whole mess with my son this afternoon, and he brought up The Raft of the Medusa, which seems terribly apposite. Time to toss the Monarchists off the boat before they run it aground.
Eight year olds can be pretty damn smart. Must be all the Pogues music I make him listen to.
4jkb4ia
ARE YOU WATCHING THIS GAME!? I will go away now.
Sojourner
I may be wrong but I was under the impression that they were ‘help.’
Dennis - SGMM
I see that Sojourner is posting away madly. I have to give her credit though, she’s the main reason that I took the good time and trouble to add pie scripting to my copy of Firefox.
Sojourner
Why haven’t you answered my original question?
dr. bloor
Perhaps it’s time to stop treating the Clinton supporters as evil. Perhaps it’s time to reach out to them and convince them WHY Obama is the best candidate.
You first:
http://www.hillaryis44.org
John Cole
I did, and you chose to ignore me. Scroll up.
Yes. OT.
PeterJ
I think you should start a club with Big Tent Democrat. It seems you two have a lot in common.
Sojourner
I’m not ignoring you. Not really. The problem I have is that both sides are becoming increasingly entrenched in their positions. Attacking Clinton’s bad behavior (accurate though that may be) is probably not going to encourage her supporters to join the Obama band wagon. My feeling is that he’s going to need those voters if he’s going to win the general.
Why can’t Obama find a way to break out of that?
I know everyone wants to think I’m a Clinton troll. I’m not. I think Obama has a tremendous amount of potential. But his first test is to find a way to invite the Clinton supporters to at least consider him. What I’m hearing from polls it that this is not happening.
Why is that? What should he (and his supporters) be doing differently to change those hearts and minds?
Beating up on people like me doesn’t seem like a winning strategy.
marjowil
There was a lot of anger and confusion about the primary not counting back in Jan, but I’m beginning to see Obama stickers on cars. I think a lot of people are eager to vote for him in the general. Not sure how the Hillary people are feeling but I think her behavior is turning into a net positive for Obama. I may be seeing only what I want to see.
There’s a lot of disgust toward the Michigan Democratic party and our state leadership (which is mostly pro-Clinton, like the governor and Debbie Dingell) about the primary, some against Dean and the DNC, but less toward Obama I think. There is a lot of excitement about his candidacy. Of course I am in the Detroit area and that’s largely Obama territory. Out-state, probably not so much support for him.
The reason I voted in the non-counting primary was partly to deny Clinton a victory, but also because a lot of people thought that ultimately we would have delegates seated at the convention, that they would at least seat us on 2nd ballot. I personally transferred a lot of early anger to Clinton and the MDP. We were afraid we would not matter; now we almost matter too much and just wish the ugliness was over.
Sojourner
A perfect example of what I am concerned about. This is only a winning strategy if you absolutely don’t need Clinton supporters to win the general.
BCT
“if the roles were reveresed Obama would have left the race a long time ago, and the media would not be playing this game. And once again, you know that damned well.”
Bullshit, there isn’t a candidate alive who who would drop out in Hillary’s position. 2 candidates separated by less than 200 delegates, both go to the convention no matter what.
Sojourner
What I’m hearing is that a third of Clinton supporters will vote for McCain before they vote for Obama. I personally know some folks who share that sentiment.
How do we change that?
McGuffin
Wow, it’s 9:30 already. I just realized I missed half of Reaper on CW.
The Other Steve
As much as Hillary is annoying me lately.
The VRWC was the most disgusting, anti-American, piece of crap I’ve seen in my lifetime.
If you lose an election, the best revenge is to win the next one and govern more competently. Bush has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that Republicans had nothing to complain about with regards to Clinton.
PeterJ
How about if Clinton stops talking about how good a candidate McCain is? That she knows that he has crossed the CiC threshold, but that Obama will have to prove that himself…
ACK
As a somewhat relevant aside, I have been following both the Iowa Electronic Markets and In Trade, both of which are real-money prediction markets/futures markets. IEM is a non-profit operated by the University of Iowa, In Trade is a profit based organization located in Dublin.
I have been following both for a number of years now. The political election results have been highly accurate. Particularly when they have been compared with traditional polling, such as the one that you site. And this isn’t just my opinion. There have been academic studies done on this.
Anyway, both the IEM and In Trade have the Democratic nominee winning the ’08 Presidential election by odds of 60 to 40. And they have been consistently at or around these numbers for some while now.
Can things change? Of course. But right now, “odds” are for the Democratic nominee to win the presidential election. Even with all of the mudslinging going on and the polls jumping all over the place.
Sojourner
Perhaps you should stop focusing on Clinton and start focusing on winning over her supporters.
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
Is that what this is about? The Lincoln bedroom!
WTF? When did this campaign turn into an extended advertisement for National Treasure 4 – The Bedchamber of Secrets?
Get a reciprocal saw, cut the damn thing off from the rest of the WH, push it out into the Rose Garden, and let them have it I say!
In fact, I’ll go one better than that – the Clintons can have every freaking bedroom in the WH for all I care – put Obama up in a Motel 6 for the next four years if we have to, as long as he gets the Oval Office, the keys to the Pentagon, the Treasury Dept., the veto pen and gets to make the State of the Union address.
It says a lot about somebody, what room of the house they think is the most important.
#*!^0}*! Clintons and their *^$]!*$ bedroom fixation!
Shheeesh!
Sojourner
I hope they’re right.
jake
Oh here we go. The original obvious question was: Why hasn’t Obama closed the deal? Now it is “Why can’t either Dem. candidate close the deal without help?”
Perhaps you should settle on the obvious question before you ask.
For the record, I’ve yet to come across a Clinton supporter I would call “evil.” I have seen a lot of jackasses who whine like they’ve got both tits stuck in a wringer, it is fucking annoying and people react accordingly.
Now you seem to be suggesting Obama supporters (or Hillary dislikers) should play nice because … um … Because. Your choices are sit this election out or vote. Are you planning not to vote unless HRC gets the nomination? Fine. Would you vote for Obama if some complete stranger takes the time to explain why you should vote for Obama? Why the fuck should anyone do that? Do your homework, make up your own mind and please for the love of FSM, quit whining.
Incertus
The overwhelming majority of Clinton voters will support Obama already–the recent poll showed what, 28% of Clinton voters saying they’d consider McCain? And that number will drop, as it includes a lot of people who are simply talking mad right now
The reverse is true as well–most Obama voters will support Clinton in the general. Why? Because it’s freaking March, and only junkies like us are paying attention. More people could talk to you about March Madness right now than could do so about presidential politics.
Martin
No, they are delegates. The way the dems do this, with proportional delegates in each state, it’s virtually impossible for anyone to win this without superdelegates. They’d need to win something like 75% of the vote in every contest. Now, on the GOP side (and the national) you can win 51% of the vote in each state and win the nomination unanimously, but the Dem system is totally different.
We can argue over how the supers should vote (popular, with their district, state, etc) and whether violating *our* preferred rules constitutes ‘help’, but that’s a bit different.
And the ‘put it away’ charge is insulting. Hillary led Obama by 30% just weeks before Iowa. She was almost 30% ahead with black voters back in October (in spite of the charges that this is race driven). She had over 100 supers before the first vote was cast. Obama was behind in *every* count just prior to this election and is now leading. If anyone failed to put this away, it was Clinton – and she knows it. Her strategy was based completely on the idea that she would have put it away on Super Tuesday.
Asti
You would think but apparently Hillary doesn’t seem to understand the precipice we’re standing on and only seems to be concerned that it’s her turn dammit!
Geesh, selfishness really irks me to no end.
Sojourner
Fine. I still haven’t gotten an answer to the question.
Feel better now?
Tractarian
Here’s your answer:
Because Senator Hillary Clinton, a well-respected former first lady, party leader, and runner-up in the race for the 2008 Democratic presidential nomination, has been going around the country telling everyone who will listen that (1) Obama would make a shitty president and (2) John McCain would make a great one.
Sojourner
Thanks for expressing exactly what I’m concerned about. For the 12,000th time, I voted for Obama. So what exactly am I “whining” about?
I have a legitimate concern that the focus on bashing Clinton is a losing strategy. Why not start a campaign of reaching out to Clinton supporters? Telling them repeatedly that they’re idiots for supporting her doesn’t seem like a winning strategy for encouraging them to turn out for Obama in November.
Martin
Because he needed most of this cycle to overtake Clinton’s early superdelegate lead. That didn’t happen until the start of this month.
He started out well behind. He needed time to catch up, which he has done, and he continues to stretch out a lead. He doesn’t have control over when elections take place, so you can’t blame him for the timing.
The real question is how will Clinton make up the delegate gap when she needs to win almost 70% of the remaining delegates?
Asti
This has got to be the strangest election season I’ve ever witnessed. Now some people are talking about a McCain/Clinton ticket… if the GOP can’t handle Clinton as McCain’s VP, I wonder how many may decide to vote for Obama instead. Hmmmm! I think our election process is being turned on it’s head this time. The 2000 FL Supreme Court election was strange, the 2004 “Bush Wins Again” was even stranger, and now we have this? What the hell is our election process coming to?
Sojourner
Which is what I meant by ‘help.’
Sojourner
Obama hasn’t closed the deal.
Sojourner
Except he lost both Ohio and Texas. Which happened this month.
PeterJ
Priority one should be to keep the democratic voters from abandoning the democratic party. A good way to do that would be to stop praising the republican canidate.
Asti
Awww, Sojourner wants everyone to get along and play nice, how sweet! I got news for you Soj, the Clintonites don’t WANT to play nice, so why should we?
Dennis - SGMM
By praising McCain every chance she gets?
Sojourner
Good question.
Asti
Absolutely!
Asti
Well, at least he’s sitting at the table, that’s more than I can say for Hillary.
Sojourner
Because you guys keep saying that Obama is better than that.
PeterJ
Not Texas.
Someone that actually voted for Obama wouldn’t still argue that he lost Texas.
Dennis - SGMM
Not suggesting that our votes don’t mean shit because pledged delegates can vote any way they want to might help as well.
demimondian
Because her behavior has gone beyond the point at which it is defensible.
Look, damn it. She is a family friend. Like as in a “someone both of my parents know personally without campaign contributions” kind of family friend…and my sibs and parents and I are reasonably tight knit. So this is hard for me to watch. I wanted her to win, OK, not just because I preferred (and still prefer) her health care and domestic policies, but also because I wanted my parents to be happy.
I have bent over backwards to be fair to her, and I can not continue to defend her. You can’t win the presidency as a dem without the African American vote — and you can kill an awful lot of down-ticket races by demotivating that vote. Whatever else the Jeremiah Wright controversy will have done, it’s alienated her from the black vote…period, and if she’s our standard bearer, we’re gonna have a hard time motivating that voting bloc for any race this time out, as well we should. Making up stories of valor under fire is a guaranteed killer with the military crowd — and she’s done that, too. Threatening a credentials fight on the convention floor is a guaranteed killer with the “little” members of the party (people like me, who remember the last two) — and she’s had the unspeakable gall to not only do that, but even threaten the sitting Speaker of the House if she doesn’t back such a move. To be fair, I have a hard time seeing how that last is even legal, frankly.
So, you’ll forgive me, but whatever she may have been originally, she is no longer merely a highly qualified candidate for the democratic nomination. She is now someone who will do ative damage to the party if nominated, and someone who actively needs to be stopped.
Sojourner
Which table might that be? If it’s the one with Democrats running for president, he’s not by himself.
Sojourner
Whoops. You’re right! My apologies.
marjowil
Any Clinton supporter who thinks McCain is better than ANY Democrat let alone Obama is simply uneducated about the candidates. McCain is all media image and the substance behind that is total fraud. One debate bet. Obama and McCain would convince anyone with a brain that Obama is the better choice. Also it will be nice if Clinton can tell her supporters that once she crashes and burns, as I guess she was trying to do today according to MSNBC. However given that she wasn’t exactly graciously conceding after her losses to Obama, that’s not to be taken for granted.
I was pro-Edwards and what I didn’t like about Obama was the Reagan comments (though taken out of context) and when he maybe said one comment about Clinton being too emotional. Everything she & her campaign has said and done against him has been worse. Listening to one of his speeches all the way through, looking at his background and policy on his website was enough to turn me into a supporter after Edwards dropped out. Has he really said or done so much that would prohibit a Clinton supporter from ultimately supporting him, as long as they weren’t hearing HRC mocking him derisively 24/7? Once that din shuts up, I think he would get most of the Clinton supporters at the end. All they would need is the ability to think rationally (those who are able at least). Policy-wise the two are not that different. The MUP is so calm and together, his style seems to grow on you, especially contrasted with crusty old grandpa warmonger.
She on the other hand has made me question all the support I used to feel toward the Clintons even where I didn’t always agree on policy. She is trashing their legacy and while I would vote for her over any Repub, I will never see them with the same respect again.
Asti
Absolutely!
cleek
grey, is that you?
John Cole
He had a delegate gain in Texas, and narrowly lost the popular vote (in part due to Republicans who voted for Hillary). In the past, when people crossed over to votre for Obama, we were told the “don’t count” and are “not real voters.” When they vote for Hillary, though, they count.
Ding. I had spent months under the impression it was her campaign, and not her, behind all the bullshit. The past couple of weeks, Hilary has gone out of her way to prove me wrong.
Sojourner
I’m not asking people to defend her behavior. I am simply suggesting that party unification (and a win in November) might be more likely if Obama supporters were to try to reach out to Clinton supporters.
So I will continue my trollish behavior and reach out to Clinton supporters in the hope of bringing them into the Obama camp.
On that note, good night to all.
Asti
Serious candidates (only serious candidates close the deal), she’s not sitting at that table, she’s off playing silly childish games in the backyard!
cleek
actually, he won Texas in the only way that matters (delegates).
but you probably knew that.
TR
I guess the American Spectator, Scaife, NewsMax and Drudge were all booked already.
jake
The question is:
Waaaah! Why won’t people be nice to the WATBs who like Hillary?
The answer:
Pathetic. The Visitor illustrates why I think judging a candidate by his/her supporters is unfair to the candidate.* I do sometimes wonder if some alleged Clintonistas are out to fuck up HRC’s bid by being such assholes that people get a splitting headache when they think of her. Good thing there’s an instant cure: Any picture of John McDeflatedhead.
*Offer not valid in the GOP.
Asti
It takes two to tango. Hillary’s supporters aren’t up for that two-step either. Don’t blame us, blame the ones who want to vote for McCain!
BH Buck
LOL!
Asti
Nah, she’s making the rounds, visiting her VRWC friends, Faux was next on the list. Rush Limbaugh is next.
cbear
Soj-
JFC, you made your point 10 comments ago, how bout giving it a freaking rest?
Or better yet, why don’t you hie your Kumbaya-singing ass over to No Quarter or Taylor Marsh and reach out to all the Clintonistas? They’ll love you over there.
Now I know how King Henry felt when he said “Will no one rid me of this meddlesome
priestprick.”Dennis - SGMM
I’m guessing that when Obama is nominated, Clinton will accept the McCain VP slot and take her supporter with her.
demimondian
I don’t think so.
There’s a problem here, and you framed it really well in your question: “Why hasn’t Obama sealed the deal?” The answer is that he has, and Clinton really has already lost — but she doesn’t want to concede. In that situation, we can afford to back away only if Clinton is trustworthy, and she’s already shown that not to be the case.
Martin
So the standard is that he win every single contest? What the fuck. How many goalposts are we going to move here? So he lost Ohio by a handful of delegates.
Look, I have no problem with Clinton staying in this race but she needs to remember that winning the general election is the real goal. Calling for the nominee to not be valid, for McCain to be the better candidate, and now holding the superdelegates hostage by refusing to deliver funding is absurd. If she wants to win then convince us why she should be the nominee, not why the Republican is better, why the elections are unfair and invalid, and not how many other elections she can compromise by not delivering dollars.
Look, this isn’t a fight to the death. If she is unable to put the welfare of the party ahead of her personal gain, or at least recognize that she is doing harm to it, then she is unqualified to be President for the very reasons that Bush is. The last thing we need is another President that puts her personal ideals ahead of the welfare of the nation. She invoked Johnson back in January as necessary to get Civil Rights passed. She neglects to see the political cost that he paid to do that. He did it because it was the right thing even though it cost him politically. I don’t think Clinton could have done that, even though that was the very comparison she was trying to draw.
If she can back off on shrinking the party in order to make her slice bigger, then I think it’s fine she stay in it.
Asti
Several weeks ago, our resident curmudgeon, TZ, asked me why I wasn’t supporting Hillary. I told him that I just never liked her all that much. I could see she had this type of rabid competitiveness years ago. I only wish others had seen it then as well.
cleek
fuck that. she’ll challenge McCain’s nomination on some obscure legal issue (maybe his campaign finance problems), get him DQ’d, then lobby to get herself nominated as the GOP candidate based on her 2nd-place showing in overall votes. then she’ll lose the popular vote and the delegate count in the GE, but will manage to twist enough arms to get Hawaii retroactively expelled from the Union thus rendering Obama a non-American-born citizen, DQing him from the Presidency. and she’ll assume the Presidency with an unprecedented mandate from the people.
pluk and miq will cheer her determination and spirit. 48 states will seceed.
BH Buck
It’s been said that WW4 will be fought with sticks and stones.
So, using that same logic in trying to answer your question, I see “purple fingers” in our not-too-distant future.
ACK
Similar to what Nicholas Kristof wrote today in the NYT —
“Do the Clintons really want to risk becoming the Naders of 2008?”
myiq2xu
I am legend
scrutinizer
Soj—
Obama is closing the deal. As many people have already said, he started with a huge deficit, and he’s
overcome overwhelming inevitability to do it. The primary process doesn’t take place at one instant in time, so it’s impossible for any candidate to “close the deal” (as you call it). As has been pointed out to you already, it was Clinton who failed to win an overwhelming victory on Suer Tuesday, and as a result, she was obviously unprepared for plan B, other than to “build firewalls” and focus on “states that matter”. Her campaign has been inept, and her campaign is increasingly desperate to spin a narrative that will play to superdelegates. So far, she hasn’t been successful. Her fabulism over Bosnia, and her endorsements of McCain, along with her reaching out to RW nutjobs like Sciafe have tainted her image in the media and have lowered her credibilty among Democrats. The poll released yesterday showing that her negatives are higher than at any time since 2001 (2?) illustrates that.
Obama, on the other hand, has never lost the lead in pledged delegates, has increased his committed superdelegate count by a huge percentage, has managed to flip a number of Clinton’s superdelegtes to him, and has lost none to Clinton. He has survived the Wright faux-controversy. and while he has defended himself vigorously against Clinton’s attacks, has not stooped to the level of negativity seen from her campaign.
I’m not worried about Obama winning the nomination no matter what Clinton tries, because she’s lost a tremendous amount of credibility in the last few weeks. While I don’t have a problem with superdelegates voting however they feel like voting (that’s what they are there for), I can’t imagine at this point how any of them could find a reason to prefer Clinton. The Clinton machine is running on empty.
Now as for the need to reach out to Clinton supporters: I’ve seen a lot of primary fights, many of which were far more rancorous than this one. In the midst of the battle, the activists are always swearing that if their candidate doesn’t receive the nomination, they won’t vote for the other person. And almost invariable, when the general comes, they hold their nose and vote for their party’s nominee. Despite all the talk of party divisiveness, that’s going to happen again this year, even if Clinton carries this all the way to the convention and pulls a Ted Kennedy on the stage.
Looking at head to head polls, Obama-McCain is still a bigger winner than Clinton-McCain; the latter matchup could be a loss for us. Obama stills brings more independents to our side, and superdelegates know that, too.
So Obama is closing the deal. Clinton failed to, and even though their are some primaries yet to be won for both candidates, I’m sure that Obama is going to be the nominee come the convention.
demimondian
Fixt. Don’t say I never did anything nice for you, SmarterThanAmoeba
Sojourner
Gee, I don’t know. Because they’re voters? Because I live in a swing state, Ohio, where every vote counts?
Seriously, isn’t it better to win over as many people as possible to the Obama side? Or is it better to call the Clinton supporters stupid for supporting her and watch them stay home in November?
I think it’s better to win in November. But if you prefer to insult the people you need to win, have at it.
Sojourner
You used the word “almost.” That’s the problem, isn’t it?
scrutinizer
Fixt.
tBone
I don’t know about you, but I’m building a Golgafrincham ark and telling Hillary supporters that the MI and FL primaries are being redone on Squornshellous Beta.
NickM
I’m willing to do my part for party unity but it would be nice if Hillary would help, too. An element of being in a party is acting coalitionally – acting on the idea that at the end of the day you will support people within the party over others. Parties don’t work without that basic agreement. Hillary is breaking that rule – she’s stopped fighting hard the way you should against a fellow party member. Some of her accusations are what Republicans would say, except they have more credibility coming from someone within the party, and she’s starting to undermine the Democrats’ ultimate candidate, whoever wins.
NickM
And to answer your question, exactly what is Obama doing to drive Clinton supporters away? From what I can tell, he’s out there campaigning for every vote.
demimondian
Truly, no.
The problem is that fear that a lot won’t — and the fact is that almost all will, and that the ones we won’t be able to reach are already lost beyond recovery now, and wasting our time on them would be poor strategy.
Asti
Or Mydd, which is becoming “all Hillary, all of the time”.
scrutinizer
No, that wasn’t the problem. The problem was that I wrote “invariable” when I should have written “invariably”.
There are always some people who vote against self-interest out of pique. No matter who wins the nomination, there will be a few diehards who will either not vote at all, or who will vote for the opposing candidate. Oh, well. Remember how many Republicans would never vote for John McCain in a primary, ever?
Oh, wait.
BTW—I thought you said you were leaving?
BH Buck
Sojourner, feel free to read though BJ’s archives. You’ll find un-ending pro-hillary, anti-obama rants by such folk as myiqnonexistent and plukmeinthebutt, that can’t be described any other way than MADDENING.
Being nice has been tried. Being nice does not work with the one-track-mind crowd.
Again, instead of pestering the fu(k out of people here tonight with your relentless questions, just read BJ’s archives.
And have a really fabulous day!
Anticorium
Results 1-10 of about 29 from balloon-juice.com for muppets. (0.14 seconds)
John D.
Sojourner, please stop setting up the false dichotomies.
I get along with many of the Hillary Clinton supporters here. It’s the trolls I aim snark and derision at — as is *proper*.
There are several posters here (and at other sites) who take joy in “stirring the pot”. They are not susceptible to reason, or reaching out to, or winning over. They’re trolls.
Some are full-time trolls. Some are part-time trolls. Like you.
Repeating “I’m still waiting for my answer” ten times is troll behavior.
Claiming victimhood when you are called on it is troll behavior.
Asking nonsensical questions like “Why hasn’t Obama closed the deal” is troll behavior.
Before you raise your hackles at the last, the reason it is a nonsensical question is the way the delegates work. It is almost impossible to garner the nomination before the convention if 2 viable candidates stay in the race. Kerry won in May, even though the last other viable candidate (Edwards) dropped out in March.
You also have to factor in the superdelegates, who have favored Clinton (naturally, given the DLC and Dem machine advantages she has), versus the pledged delegate lead that Obama has. Since those two factors offset somewhat, it balances those 2 out, and extends the “deal” as you say. And, finally, the deal will be closed at the convention. Since it is impossible to be the nominee before then, given those pesky rules and all.
Notorious P.A.T.
I hope you don’t still fell this way after watching the past few months.
If the Clintons will sit down with Richard M Scaife, they will sit down with anyone. There won’t be an anti-Republican backlash under Hillary.
Asti
I’m almost certain that her VRWC crap was all a ruse to get elected now. Otherwise, why would she be talking to those people, hmmm?
Conservatively Liberal
So basically Hillary is playing a game of chicken with the party, right? I hope that she keeps ramping this crap up every day so people will get sick of listening to her. It seems to me that she is doing a pretty good job of it so far. She is digging up any and every trick that she can come up with to win this, I will give her that much. The problem is that she is looking increasingly desperate, that the wheels are coming off of her campaign as she keeps grasping at straws. She is not doing herself any favors when her own Super Delegates are telling her to back off the crap.
The more her and her supporters flail, the more they make Obama look calm, cool and collected. They thought they had a ‘gotcha’ moment with the Wright flap, but Obama grabbed the bull by the horns and wrestled it down. In my mind, I think the Wright flap showed that when he is under stress to do something, Obama still carefully considers his options before acting. Once he makes a decision, he follows through with it all of the way. He was knocked down, and he calmly stood up, dusted himself off and addressed the situation.
And he did it without throwing Wright under the bus, which is very unusual for a politician to do. Whatever you may think about Obama, you have to admit that he did a good job handling the situation. There was no way he could solve it, so he chose to address it as something that we all need to deal with, that it is not going to go away.
Hillary has been bouncing from one verbal disaster to another, crashing around like a drunk behind the wheel of a semi on the freeway. The contrast in style and performance between Obama and Clinton is like night and day for me. Hillary went from inevitable to last place in a two person contest, with Obama beating her fair and square.
Why has Obama been unable to cinch it? For the same reason that Hillary has been unable to. But between the two of them, it is clear to any observer that Obama is beating Clinton. The win for either of them is impossible without the Super Delegates, that much is clear.
Last year, Pelosi said that the Super Delegates should honor the will of the voters in the pledged delegate race. Hillary had no problem with that then as she was ‘inevitable’. Same with Hillary dismissing the results of Michigan and Florida, she thought she had it sewed up from square one. Hillary has reversed herself so ofter in this campaign, it is hard to keep up with it.
One thing is clear though, Obama’s campaign performance has been outstanding, and Clinton’s has been a series of disasters, one right after another. I have a feeling that their respective administrations would perform accordingly.
zzyzx
Just when I thought things were getting under control on mydd, Jermone posts one of his “MI and FL get seated, Obama gets no delegates from MI, and then Clinton wins the floor fight!!!” scenarios.
Just once, I’d like to hear from a Clinton supporter how they get Obama supporters to vote for her after that sort of “victory.”
CBD
Sounds like one of those 28% of Clinton Supporters from Yesterdays article.
Go vote for McCain then.
Conservatively Liberal
What, no concern over there about treating his supporters kindly like there is here with Sojourner? Wow, I am so not surprised. Go figure.
CBD
Or perhaps Nader is more your flavor?
Conservatively Liberal
Associating a flavor with Nader is a scary thought. The first thing that came to mind for me was moldy fermented prune juice. He is nothing more than an old record that sounds scratchy and skips constantly. He has had his 15 seconds of infamy, and he is so last century.
He should have gone to pasture after 2000.
Martin
Bill pushed to the right after the 94 midterms in order to get re-elected. The Clinton’s have always had Penn driving their ideologies. If there are votes to the right, you turn right. That’s true all the time.
As a result, in the first term, you have no way of knowing where Clinton will be. If she needs GOP votes, there will be no backlash.
Of course, there will be no backlash with Obama either. Revenge is not how you get things done.
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
Because Clinton is now running a zombie campaign.
You don’t want to get too close to a zombie – they’ll grab you and suck out ur brainz!
P.S. My thanks go out to everybody above who covered the rational arguments, so I can take the night off from that and just have fun snarking.
Asti
I wasn’t expecting a backlash from Obama. I am expecting “we’re not doing that anymore” from Obama. I just think that whole “there is a VWRC out to get me” thing was obviously a ruse if she is going to those people now to get help to shield her from her own party.
TenguPhule
Dear Hillary,
Please shut up and go the fuck away.
-America
Joshua
I can’t believe Hillary Clinton at this point. She went on the record against seating Florida and Michigan. She went on the record! What a fucking slimy move this is. I can’t believe how shameless it is.
For a long time now I have said I will vote for Clinton if she won the nomination, simply because we cannot afford to have another Republican in office. Now? If she somehow creeps her way onto the ballot I am not even sure I’ll vote. This stuff is just beyond the pale.
Cain
Slightly off topic:
Anybody go through Obama’s economic plan that he released? I didn’t read it myself but I was curious to see what digg commenters thought about it (who generally are pro-obama). They had a pretty negative reaction to the whole thing. Accusing him of being weak on his grasp of economics. The main thing seems to be that he was raising taxies and giving it to people who made bad decisions.
Personally, I knew taxes were going to be raised if we elected a democrat. I’m not particularly happy about it but that’s the way it goes. We’re bleeding money right now and if my tax dollars can be re-invested and help the economy and get better services or whatever that’s fine by me.
Anyways, we’ll have some good meat tomorrow I’m sure. :-)
cain
binzathome
mickey1/2wit:
That’s what the belled cat thought, too.
protected static
Looks like Sen. Clinton is doing some damage control: Clinton tells Democrats: Don’t vote for McCain
over_educated
Like the Bush administrations recent bailout of investment bank Bear-Stern? Talk about moral hazard… I would prefer idiot homeowners bailed out before idiot bankers.
over_educated
Oh and John, you need to add a link: Hillary Clinton Deathwatch
jake
[posted with only a mild amount of snark]
I think it’s great that we live in a country where people feel so secure they can cast Fuck You votes. Although it would be nice if people were original enough to come up with funny write-ins. Pogo was a family favorite when I was growing up.
/mild amount of snark
Barbar
I’m an Obamabot who can’t stand Clinton at this point, but people need to take a deep breath and understand that Clinton can undo about 98% of the damage she’s done with one good concession speech.
What’s that — she’s a vile monster who will say anything, no matter how transparently ridiculous, to get elected, but she has too much integrity to strongly endorse Obama after she finally has to give up?
Honestly, only political junkies are paying that much attention to what Clinton is saying. And it irritates me a great deal, but it’s not the end of the world.
The Other Steve
And they have a strong grasp of economics?
We should encourage people to make bad decisions so a few can get wealthy?
No, I thought Obama had a good grasp of economics, the understanding that capitalism should be a win/win.
The Other Steve
We’re just naive little MUP-pets who support a candidate who is all talk and no action, who has no experience, and did I mention we’re all kool-aid drinking brainwashed MUP-pets?
So how do you expect us to try to win over clinton supporters when we’re so obviously stupid?
Sojourner
You’re absolutely right. I forgot to drink my Obama Kool-Aid yesterday.
How dare I ask questions that could, in any way, be interpreted as challenging the total world domination of the MUP.
Shame, shame, shame.
Jen
TOS, if NC settles this thing for Obama, you have to drink sweet tea while whistling Dixie, then you have to apologize to us, mmmkay?
John Cole
You asked a question.
I promptly answered it.
You then repeatedly pretended no one had addressed your question and then asked it over and over again. Then you went into concern troll mode and started whinging about party unity and the need for Obama to win over Hillary supporters. You know, the folks who are posting at hillaryis44 that they will vote for McCain over Obama, and pretended this is Obama’s fault, rather than the nasty tone set by Hillary. One which is so divisive that now even Hillary is walking back from the rhetoric.
Quit pretending that it is the Obama supporters who are being knuckleheads.
freddy
All that concern Soj has over Obama needing to woo Clinton supporters is quite amusing. Didn’t Obama somewhat recently gain the support of Gov. Richardson? You might counter and say that the Gov. wasn’t securely in the Clinton camp… which makes me wonder why Richardson would be labeled a Judas?
grandpajohn
Pretty much sums up my attitude, I am really dismayed at my apparent lack of judgment and my denial about he Clintons, I really expected much better from them
. Just last week I posted about how I would gladly vote for either Dem, now? another week of this willful destruction by her campaign and I will have to say NO WAY.
But then as far as my judgment goes, I also voted for Nixon and Reagan and Bush I so I guess that pretty much sums up my ability to make judgments about politicians doesn’t it.
Sojourner
Where? I’m sorry if I’m dense but I do not see where you answered my question.
In spite of the accusations, I meant it as a serious question. I hear so much about Obama momentum but just this month he lost a key swing state, Ohio. Why is that?
I am sorry if everyone is all offended that I dared ask this question but it’s a perfectly legitimate question. Maybe you answered it but I still don’t see where you did so. If you’re claiming that it’s because of dirty tricks on the part of the Clinton campaign, I respectfully suggest that you’re doing a disservice to most of the people who voted for her. Only a small percentage of these people are partisans of the hillaryis44 variety.
I’m also sorry if people are offended that I am concerned about the Clinton voters. I live in a swing state where every vote for the Democratic nominee matters.
Given my new status as an Obama troll, it’s difficult for me to conclude anything other than there is a serious desire for full-scale war from the supporters in both camps. A pox on both camps.
Brachiator
I haven’t had a chance to read the speech yet. Did Obama promise to divert billions into a financial markets bailout, to rescue those fat cats who made bad decisions?
The Democrats have consistently failed to drive the point home that the tax on wages and savings is much higher than the tax on capital gains and investment income, thanks to the Bush Administration and gutless Democrats.
So it makes sense for a fat cat to pay workers as little as possible, outsource as much labor as possible, and then instead of running the company well, sell it for a big capital gain.
Shorter example:
Enjoy that $600 Economic Stimulus Rebate…
Meanwhile, in another part of the forest, Bill Clinton is making a case that caucuses don’t matter. The new math is that Senator Clinton “deserves” the nomination if she does well where only she thinks it matters:
I guess that unless something changes, we are in for a messy, protracted fight. It will, however, be amusing to see what new definition of “is” will be should Senator Clinton fail to perform as expected in the remaining primaries.
Well said.
I started out neutral toward Senator Clinton because I have a bias against anyone (of any gender) who spends the majority of their career on the sidelines as an advisor. I didn’t know much about Obama, and went out of my way to see or read the transcripts of the presidential debates. I came away with the conviction that Senator Clinton has shown from Day One of the campaign that she is not ready for prime time, while I was frankly surprised at the degree to which Obama has impressed me.
Joy
I’ve got to ask a stupid question, what’s MUP?
John D.
Amazingly enough, my post was about *you*, not Obama, with a digression into mathematics.
No Kool-Aid. No MUP. Just an analysis of the behavior you exhibited in this thread. And calls to reach across the aisle are somewhat hypocritical when you respond with “MUP”, y’know.
The question you asked was “Why hasn’t Obama sealed the deal?”. I explained why that question is — at best — silly. What more do you want? A cookie?
There will be no nominee until the convention, EVER. There will be presumptive nominees, sure. But the nominee is elected *at the convention*. The deal is not sealed until then. Clinton was perfectly correct in saying that even the pledged delegates are allowed to vote for whomever they choose. For that matter, the electors in the general are allowed to do so as well.
So, in turn, I’ll ask *you* a question. Why do you think that neither candidate has amassed enough delegates of any stripe to become the presumptive nominee yet?
PaulB
“what’s MUP?”
Magical Unity Pony, I think. It’s a term of derision from Clinton supporters who believe that Obama supporters are totally unrealistic about Obama and they really have drunk the Kool-Aid about how much he appeals to everyone. Obama brings a “Magical Unity Pony” and everyone who believes that is a MUPpet.
PaulB
Um, because more voters went for Clinton? The same thing is almost certainly going to happen in Pennsylvania. Why does that matter? In a contested primary, the loser always wins some states. It doesn’t change the eventual outcome.
Joy
Thanks PaulB!
Sojourner
Your analysis is incorrect.
Excellent question. I really don’t know the answer.
Nor have I heard any particularly good explanations from the talking head “experts”. An overly simplistic answer might be that the two candidates attract supporters with very different personality types. Which might explain the strong emotional investment a lot of people have in their candidate.
I can’t remember another election (at least on the Dem side) where there was this much emotional investment in one candidate, let alone two.
I don’t know what to make of it.
Sojourner
I guess I’m just curious as to why there continues to be such a strong split in the Dem party. I am not claiming that they are equally popular. Obama will, ultimately, get the nomination. But it’s hard to deny that there is a split.
PaulB
Because we have two strong candidates, both of whom offer a historical opportunity. And yes, they appeal to different constituencies, in more ways than one. Clinton has the female vote, Obama has the black vote, Clinton has the big money donors and the machine, Obama has the bloggers and the DFHs, and so on. I don’t think it’s much more complicated than that.
As to the hardening of the positions and the overall passion in this contest, I think that’s attributable to such factors as electability (i.e., supporters of both candidates tend to believe the other candidate is “unelectable”), the historical opportunity (each set of supporters really wants to break the gender/race barrier), Iraq, and so on.
The simple truth is that Obama outplayed Clinton, which is why, barring a miracle, he’s going to win.
iluvsummr
Been over a year since I visited Balloon Juice but I did today and Sojourner’s post about reaching out to Clinton voters got me thinking.
If by the end of June, Obama has won Oregon and North Carolina (even if he loses Pennsylvania and Indiana), Hillary will probably need to concede, since it looks like there will be no do-overs in Florida or Michigan. Hillary Clinton is the key to getting many Clinton voters over to Obama. She can highlight the differences between a vote for McCain and a vote for Obama in terms of the war, the Supreme Court, etc. She can state that she has had a Damascene conversion on Obama with respect to meeting the Commander-in-Chief threshold (taking back her “endorsement” of McCain over him). She can appear with him at rallies (as Romney is currently doing with McCain) to campaign for him. In short she can attempt to undo some of the damage she has wrought with her own words. That would go a long way with most of her voters. But not all of them.
On his part, Obama could pick a governor like Sebelius, Napolitano, etc. as VP to round out his ticket. Not sure that will get the Erica Jong or Gloria Steinem vote, but it might mollify them a little. (I don’t think Clinton as Obama VP is a good idea).
Sojourner I’m sure you’ve heard about the Pew Research Center Poll conducted recently. I’m including an excerpt from an associated Press article about it here:
[QUOTE]
While Obama has a mostly favorable image among white Democrats, those with unfavorable views about him are likelier to say equal rights for minorities have gone too far and to oppose interracial dating. Almost one in four white Democrats who view Obama unfavorably also think he is Muslim, when in fact he is Christian. Obama and Clinton both continue to hold slender leads nationally in matchups against the all-but-certain Republican candidate, John McCain.
[/QUOTE]
For a certain group of Democrats, which includes some Clinton supporters, other than transmogrify into John Edwards, there’s absolutely nothing Obama can do. And frankly, I don’t care if that group of democrats votes for McCain rather than Obama.