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Balloon Juice

Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Dumb motherfuckers cannot understand a consequence that most 4 year olds have fully sorted out.

… gradually, and then suddenly.

The words do not have to be perfect.

Every one of the “Roberts Six” lied to get on the court.

There are a lot more evil idiots than evil geniuses.

GOP baffled that ‘we don’t care if you die’ is not a winning slogan.

Oh FFS you might as well trust a 6-year-old with a flamethrower.

Decision time: keep arguing about the last election, or try to win the next one?

JFC, are there no editors left at that goddamn rag?

rich, arrogant assholes who equate luck with genius

I desperately hope that, yet again, i am wrong.

People are weird.

The line between political reporting and fan fiction continues to blur.

Sitting here in limbo waiting for the dice to roll

The press swings at every pitch, we don’t have to.

Democracy cannot function without a free press.

Let’s not be the monsters we hate.

I swear, each month of 2025 will have its own history degree.

Not rolling over. fuck you, make me.

Republicans are the party of chaos and catastrophe.

Every decision we make has lots of baggage with it, known or unknown.

Petty moves from a petty man.

No offense, but this thread hasn’t been about you for quite a while.

The willow is too close to the house.

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Open Thread:  Hey Lurkers!  (Holiday Post)

Open Threads

You are here: Home / Archives for Open Threads

Cold Grey Dawn Open Thread: Incorrigible

by Anne Laurie|  October 11, 20245:21 am| 156 Comments

This post is in: Elections 2024, Grifters Gonna Grift, Open Threads, Proud to Be A Democrat

There are some immigrants who just can’t adjust to American society… they’re incapable of following our laws, no matter how carefully they’re instructed…

What? Elon Musk is paying people to sign up for his Trump PAC. I thought vote buying was illegal. pic.twitter.com/jQy1BFLnQM

— Karen Piper (@PiperK) October 6, 2024

If you live in a swing state and know a bunch of Democrats, you can all make hundreds of dollars from Elon Musk by signing a petition you don't even agree with https://t.co/Q0VyNJPfkm

— Swann Marcus (@SwannMarcus89) October 9, 2024

People are saying this is vote buying, but it isn't because there is no quid pro quo. He isn't telling you to vote a certain way in exchange for money – you just have to sign a petition and there's no way for him to prove whether or not you're just doing it to scam his pac

— Swann Marcus (@SwannMarcus89) October 9, 2024

Maybe they were poorly raised — or perhaps their genes are bad!

Elon’s mom, Maye Musk, got a Community Note for telling people to commit voter and identify fraud.

I’m all for this type of immigrant being deported.

🍿 pic.twitter.com/6XOR0sMWlQ

— Art Candee 🍿🥤 (@ArtCandee) October 6, 2024

show full post on front page

Again voter fraud doesn't happen at scale because it's the dumbest crime you can possibly commit. Years in prison for even a single, easily proven instance in order to negligibly benefit someone who isn't you.

It's a crime exclusively committed by people with acute brain worms. https://t.co/GLDBeLvpzp

— zeddy (@Zeddary) October 6, 2024

Whatever the reason, they’re incorrigible.

Oh look! Someone is looting in a disaster area. https://t.co/GgubXkaaFJ

— ellocust (@ellocust) October 9, 2024

He is lying. The Starlink terminals cost $400 dollars and people are automatically placed on a $120 monthly subscription after the free month Elon is giving them. This is extorting victims of a natural disaster for his personal gain. He is an evil man. pic.twitter.com/z1HXmghtbE

— evan loves worf (@esjesjesj) October 9, 2024

El*n M*sk out here telling people the reason he went hard-fascist and talks about assassinating Kamala Harris and spread lies about the assault on Nancy Pelosi's husband and hates trans people is that he didn't get invited to a White House party. pic.twitter.com/sI1y6AxGbE

— Jamison Foser (@jamisonfoser) October 10, 2024

Cold Grey Dawn Open Thread: IncorrigiblePost + Comments (156)

War for Ukraine Day 960: President Zelenskyy & Larry the Cat

by Adam L Silverman|  October 10, 202410:15 pm| 18 Comments

This post is in: Foreign Affairs, Foreign Policy, Military, Open Threads, Russia, Silverman on Security, War, War in Ukraine

A quick housekeeping note: We are safely at the hotel in Tallahassee. Rosie and ruby are curled up on the bed with me as I type this. The Mominator is in the next room racking out.

All we know right now is that the power has been out in my neighborhood since about 4 PM EDT yesterday. The one neighbor that we know stayed – three time cancer survivor who’s my age and is like “FUCK IT! I’VE BEEN THROUGH WORSE!!!” – let us know that the street is flooded as of this morning. Her house is not as high up as mine and it did not flood. What we don’t know is when power will be restored, whether my house took any damage, and when we can get back in. I have a friend who is going to go over tomorrow and check the house for us. Provided there’s no damage or, just some minor stuff, as soon as we get an estimate as to whether the power will be back on is when we’ll head back. We’d like to get home Saturday or Sunday, but there’s no point driving back if there’s no power and/or if the house is damaged to the point where it isn’t livable.

As you can imagine, I’m fried. I’m just going to run down the basics and rack out.

President Zelenskyy did a number of stops today to meet with the heads of government in Italy, France, and the UK. In the UK he had an encounter with Larry the Cat, which led Larry to tweet the following:

Slava Ukraini 🇺🇦

— Larry the Cat (@Number10cat) October 10, 2024

Here’s the full text of President Zelenskyy’s tweet:

During my meeting with the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom @Keir_Starmer, I outlined the details of our Victory Plan. We have agreed to work on it together with our allies.

The Victory Plan aims to create the right conditions for a just end to the war. I thank the United Kingdom for its continued defense support of our country, including with long-range weapons.

🇺🇦🇬🇧

Because he’s traveling, there’s no address from President Zelenskyy today.

show full post on front page

The cost:

Ukrainan journalist Viktoria Roschina has died in Russian custody.

She was just 27.

Captured and imprisoned in the Russian-occupied zone of Ukraine’s Zaporizhia Oblast, she spent over a year in captivity.

According to Ukraine’s military intel service, Viktoria was supposed to… pic.twitter.com/yEM8PKU7XT

— Illia Ponomarenko 🇺🇦 (@IAPonomarenko) October 10, 2024

Ukrainan journalist Viktoria Roschina has died in Russian custody.

She was just 27.

Captured and imprisoned in the Russian-occupied zone of Ukraine’s Zaporizhia Oblast, she spent over a year in captivity.

According to Ukraine’s military intel service, Viktoria was supposed to get back home soon as part of prisoner swaps between Russia and Ukraine.

It’s painful to even try and have a brief thought about what Russia could do to her to precipitate the death of a 27-year-old woman in captivity.

Putin’s Russia is a criminally insane maniac of a state.

What did they do with her? https://t.co/zywb8jhALm

— Maria Avdeeva (@maria_avdv) October 10, 2024

Here’s the full text of the quoted tweet:

oday, I learned the terrible news. Our colleague, journalist Victoria Roshchyna, died in Russian captivity.

I have a question. What did they do with her? What could have been done to a young girl to make her die? I call on all journalistic organizations from different countries to officially demand an answer from Russia.

Vika, you were so brave. I’m so sorry we didn’t free you on time…

If you were curious where the “taxpayers are funding Ukraine at their own expense” influence operation originated, here you go, though this one is a British flavored variant:

Having been snubbed by the US 🇺🇸 over his “pseudo-victory” wish-list Zelensky has turned up in London to claim a consolatory batch of the UK 🇬🇧 handouts and political soundbites.

As before, the British taxpayer will foot the bill for the carnage the corrupt Kiev regime… pic.twitter.com/QuJDg6YyXO

— Russian Embassy, UK (@RussianEmbassy) October 10, 2024

Having been snubbed by the US 🇺🇸 over his “pseudo-victory” wish-list Zelensky has turned up in London to claim a consolatory batch of the UK 🇬🇧 handouts and political soundbites.

As before, the British taxpayer will foot the bill for the carnage the corrupt Kiev regime continues to inflict on its own country and people

Shortly before this was posted, an air alert sounded in Kyiv as Russia launched ballistic missiles from Ukraine’s Russian-occupied Crimea. Explosions have been reported in the southern Ukrainian city of Mykolaiv. https://t.co/tmZ2MroyI1

— Euan MacDonald (@Euan_MacDonald) October 10, 2024

Here’s more about how some of this works:

🚨NEW 🚨

@AmericanSunProj has identified a network of over 1000 likely automated, pro-Russian X accounts that we’re calling “Sleeper Agents,” as some have been active for over a DECADE.

1/

‘Sleeper agent’ bots on X fuel US election misinformation, study saysHundreds of apparent pro-Russian bot accounts on X are pushing US election misinformation and amplifying false narratives about Democratic contender Kamala Harris, a research group said Thursday, call…https://www.yahoo.com/news/sleeper-agent-bots-x-fuel-224335529.html?guccounter=1
@AmericanSunProj This network, which has generated over 100M posts, amplifies Kremlin propaganda within seconds of it being posted. It uses AI-generated or stolen profile pictures to give the guise of grassroots, authentic support. And it engages across divisive issues in the US and beyond. 2/ 
@AmericanSunProj We weren’t surprised to find a Russian bot network; we were surprised how *old* this network is. Isn’t Elon Musk supposed to be doing something about spam and inauthentic behavior on this platform? 🙃 3/ 
@AmericanSunProj Since VP Harris entered the pres. race, we’ve observed an uptick in abusive & false content targeting her from this network. However, since Musk has monetized access to the X API, it is impossible to know the true extent of this network’s activity surrounding the election. 4/ 
@AmericanSunProj Since 2020, social media platforms like X have rolled back their content moderation operations and slashed their trust and safety teams, rendering our country and our discourse more vulnerable as we head toward what is likely to be a tumultuous election and transition period. 5/ 
@AmericanSunProj We’re calling on X to take down this network and reinstate its efforts to combat foreign influence campaigns on its platform. The Sleeper Agent network is a snapshot of a single network in Russia’s vast online influence operation. 6/ 

@AmericanSunProj We know Russia is not the only adversary attempting to influence the US. Time to wake up.

Read the full report here 7/7

Sleeper Agents Report — The American Sunlight Projecthttps://www.americansunlight.org/sleeper-agents-asp-report

France:

I met with the President of France, @EmmanuelMacron. Together, we received a briefing from the leadership of the training center where our unit, referred to in France as the Anne of Kyiv Brigade, is being trained.

France will provide significant support to this brigade:… pic.twitter.com/xo5YQeFobw

— Rustem Umerov (@rustem_umerov) October 10, 2024

I met with the President of France, @EmmanuelMacron. Together, we received a briefing from the leadership of the training center where our unit, referred to in France as the Anne of Kyiv Brigade, is being trained.

France will provide significant support to this brigade: delivering armored personnel carriers, self-propelled artillery systems, trucks, situational awareness systems, and other essential equipment. With this assistance, the unit will be fully equipped to carry out combat missions.

I also held productive negotiations with Minister of the Armed Forces, @SebLecornu. The main topic was strengthening our defense capabilities.

I informed Mr. Lecornu about the situation on the front lines and presented a list of the Ukrainian army’s urgent needs. We discussed the initiation of a French cooperation format for the production of arms and ammunition.

More on the Ukrainian strike on the Russian Shahed drone base in Krasnodar Oblast, Russia:

Yesterday, Ukrainian defense forces struck a Shahed UAV storage base in the Krasnodar region (russia)—@GeneralStaffUA reports.

According to available information, approximately 400 Shahed drones were stored there. The destruction of this storage base will significantly reduce… pic.twitter.com/671mRRiSYz

— Defense of Ukraine (@DefenceU) October 10, 2024

Yesterday, Ukrainian defense forces struck a Shahed UAV storage base in the Krasnodar region (russia)— @GeneralStaffUA reports.

According to available information, approximately 400 Shahed drones were stored there. The destruction of this storage base will significantly reduce the ability of russian occupiers to spread terror.

Glory to Ukraine! Our fight continues.

Not sure where in Ukraine this is:

The enemy ammo depot was destroyed by drone operators from the 10th Mountain Assault Brigade. pic.twitter.com/PMVsRuZmwX

— Defense of Ukraine (@DefenceU) October 10, 2024

Kharkiv:

https://t.co/bXa69tYPSd pic.twitter.com/odKnYqlyuq

— Defense of Ukraine (@DefenceU) October 10, 2024

Kyiv:

Північне сяйво над Києвом #aurora pic.twitter.com/u1sPuY9Yxv

— Specialty Kudymets 🐈🇺🇦 (@Zoreslav4yk) October 10, 2024

Bucha:

pic.twitter.com/FFAqAKaZ1s

— Illia Ponomarenko 🇺🇦 (@IAPonomarenko) October 10, 2024

Northern lights over Kyiv #aurora

The Aurora Borealis is shining over Ukraine again tonight.

I must say this is unique—never in my life did I hear about the Northern Lights seen in our latitudes as often as during the dramatic time of the Russian invasion.

It paints our skies red in memory of so many fallen…

— Illia Ponomarenko 🇺🇦 (@IAPonomarenko) October 10, 2024

The Aurora Borealis is shining over Ukraine again tonight.

I must say this is unique—never in my life did I hear about the Northern Lights seen in our latitudes as often as during the dramatic time of the Russian invasion.

It paints our skies red in memory of so many fallen friends and loved ones. And we must remember that an aurora is also a sign of hope in the dark.

So we keep the good hope.

Goodnight from Ukraine!

Odesa:

#Odesa 22:35

A series of very powerful and loud explosions, walls shaking

(Came for a visit…)

— Zarina Zabrisky 🇺🇸🇺🇦 (@ZarinaZabrisky) October 10, 2024

Kherson Oblast:

#Kherson Not just #DroneAttacks

🔴Today
06:30 am – artillery strike
09:50 – artillery strike
Man, 56, injured
10:40 – artillery strike
13.45 – artillery strike

🔴Overnight – a post office damaged

🔴Yesterday
16 settlements attacked
💔1 killed
10 injured pic.twitter.com/jr1FVrVFR5

— Zarina Zabrisky 🇺🇸🇺🇦 (@ZarinaZabrisky) October 10, 2024

Feodosiya, Russian occupied Crimea:

Russian oil depot in Feodosiya just keeps shining brighter pic.twitter.com/dW6reRNvEy

— Kate from Kharkiv (@BohuslavskaKate) October 10, 2024

Russian marine oil terminal in Feodosia, Crimea. After four days of the fire after the Ukrainian strike, another oil tank exploded. A huge column of flame rushed from the ground to the sky. https://t.co/izTwg8aXca pic.twitter.com/llNGfVWrn3

— Special Kherson Cat 🐈🇺🇦 (@bayraktar_1love) October 10, 2024

If it burns for four more days, there’s going to be a new Jewish holiday. I do not make the rules…

Maykop Russia:

Drones attacked the Khanska military airfield near the Russian city of Maykop.
The exact number of aircraft destroyed or damaged is still being determined. However, it is already known that there are large-scale fires and detonations at the airfield. Local authorities have… pic.twitter.com/fdGz0BmgXR

— Kate from Kharkiv (@BohuslavskaKate) October 10, 2024

Drones attacked the Khanska military airfield near the Russian city of Maykop.
The exact number of aircraft destroyed or damaged is still being determined. However, it is already known that there are large-scale fires and detonations at the airfield. Local authorities have announced an evacuation.🔥🔥🔥

Launch of Ukrainian kamikaze drones during tonight’s attack on Russian military airfield near Maykop https://t.co/7tFx33k7q6 pic.twitter.com/WfcRzrJD4p

— Special Kherson Cat 🐈🇺🇦 (@bayraktar_1love) October 10, 2024

This night Ukrainian drones targeted Russian military airfield near Maykop, Adygea Republic of Russia. 410km from the frontline. (44.6843868, 40.0384384) pic.twitter.com/5RcAO1EjZk

— Special Kherson Cat 🐈🇺🇦 (@bayraktar_1love) October 10, 2024

That’s enough for tonight.

Your daily Patron!

First, some adjacent material from the Ukrainian Ministry of Defense.

Baby Shark in service with #UAarmy makes occupiers dance.

📷: Yurii Stefanyak / Ukraїner pic.twitter.com/MB1bdGnmWg

— Defense of Ukraine (@DefenceU) October 10, 2024

What? It’s a shark…

And a new video from Patron’s official TikTok:

@patron__dsns

Коротко про те, як я познайомився з паном Послом Японії 🤭🤍 #песпатрон

♬ som original – 𝑷𝒆𝒅𝒓𝒂𝒅𝒂𝒔🎵

Here’s the machine translation of the caption:

Briefly about how I met Mr. Ambassador of Japan 🤭🤍 #песпатрон

Open thread!

War for Ukraine Day 960: President Zelenskyy & Larry the CatPost + Comments (18)

Thursday Evening Open Thread: Cleaning Up After Milton

by Anne Laurie|  October 10, 20248:19 pm| 117 Comments

This post is in: How about that weather?, Open Threads, Proud to Be A Democrat

Here's the entire full press conference with President Biden about Hurricane Milton relief efforts in Florida.

Dark Brandon dropped the mic at the end!

Epic!

🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥 pic.twitter.com/BYWJGIpKUS

— Art Candee 🍿🥤 (@ArtCandee) October 10, 2024

HOLY SHIT 😂#GetALifeMan pic.twitter.com/uMzk2wWr2D

— Eleven Films (@ElevenFilms) October 10, 2024

Earlier, Our Very Serious Media…

Reporter: Have you considered calling Trump and telling him to stop?

Biden: pic.twitter.com/0FKKPzeNfT

— Acyn (@Acyn) October 9, 2024

After learning more and more about how dumb everyone is we probably have to do this or people won’t think it’s happening https://t.co/uwZcfYs8uO

— 🥥🍦Centrist Madness🍦🥥 (@CentristMadness) October 10, 2024

Very few people hate ‘gubmint tyranny’ the day after the disaster…

show full post on front page

*PRAISE* from Tampa Mayor @JaneCastor:

"I CAN'T say enough about FEMA and the federal government's part in the response…I just got a text early this morning from Administrator Criswell asking 'how did you do – what do you need?' So THANK YOU to the federal government." pic.twitter.com/pXyHLydRqw

— Herbie Ziskend (@HerbieZiskend46) October 10, 2024

Suddenly he doesn't have dementia when a red state is drowning. https://t.co/3uxFjSwvme

— Shadow Of The Nerdtree (@agraybee) October 10, 2024

A GOP congresswoman from Florida is publicly saying that Biden is taking her calls about hurricane relief but Mike Johnson is not https://t.co/e5oqEzVEoa

— Swann Marcus (@SwannMarcus89) October 10, 2024

Remember: Sharing is Caring!

The real reason the GOP hates FEMA is simple

it goes to Reagan's "Most Terrifying Words – ‘I’m from the government and I’m here to help."

FEMA is from the government and does help

when people at their lowest see FEMA resources they realize the truth that GOP hates

— z3dster𝅸𝅸𝅸𝅸𝅸𝅸𝅸𝅸𝅸𝅸𝅸𝅸𝅸𝅸𝅸𝅸𝅸𝅸𝅸𝅸𝅸 (@z3dster) October 10, 2024

A working government helping to explain social services and accessibility to citizens in need is the photographic equivalent of nails on a chalkboard for the JD Vance types

Because when they say "I’m from the government and I’m here to help." people are glad they are there pic.twitter.com/Z2R90g2B06

— z3dster𝅸𝅸𝅸𝅸𝅸𝅸𝅸𝅸𝅸𝅸𝅸𝅸𝅸𝅸𝅸𝅸𝅸𝅸𝅸𝅸𝅸 (@z3dster) October 10, 2024

ETA:

It is vile to lie to people about this, he is going to keep people from seeking and receiving the help they need from the federal government, which is quite capable of providing it at the moment https://t.co/uWOqmqkQZB

— vituperativeerb (@vituperativeerb) October 9, 2024

Thursday Evening Open Thread: Cleaning Up After MiltonPost + Comments (117)

The Nebraska Ground Game!

by WaterGirl|  October 10, 20245:00 pm| 61 Comments

This post is in: Open Threads

Let’s talk about Field Operations for Dan Osborn in Nebraska!

An update from our contact:

I would describe our ground game as playing catch-up right now.

The campaign had a skeleton staff and minimal funding until the last couple of weeks, meaning they and we are urgently investing enormous time and money in expanding our grassroots capacity.

We are opening 5 new offices in Western Nebraska on Sunday 10/13 and we have instituted part-time organizer positions which is allowing us to hire local Nebraskans across the state.

These efforts are designed to fight for rural pro-labor voters who traditionally vote Republican but are open to Dan’s message. In Lincoln, the focus is on turning out Democrats that are supporting Dan, while in Omaha our focus is on holding or expanding our Republican Support.

Mail-in-Ballots have already gone out across the state, meaning our persuasion door knocks/calls are also doubling as GOTV conversations when we speak with MIB-received supporters.

The door- knocking focus will likely depend on what polling and early-vote data is telling us about our support. If we get soft with Dems, we’ll double down on D doors in Omaha. If we’re still strong with Dems, our focus will remain on turning out independent and Republican supporters and/or last minute emergency persuasion.

Regardless, this race has razor thin margins of the sort that make field especially fun and meaningful.

Fun Facts

  • a little money goes a long way in this small state
  • this is a potential Senate pick up
  • the campaign is using our funds solely for GOTV efforts

Let’s do this!

If we can get Dan to $22,500 by morning, in donations of any amount, we have an Angel who will take us home!  $25k, here we come.  (I hope)


Donate

Also, if any BJ peeps are local to Nebraska, or nearby, or even if you want to travel, I’m sure Scott can put you to good use!

Just let me know.

OH MY GOSH, YOU GUYS DID IT!

YOU FINISHED THIS OFF  IN JUST 4 HOURS!

$2,500 in Angel Matches coming this evening or tomorrow.

The Nebraska Ground Game!Post + Comments (61)

Powerful

by TaMara|  October 10, 20243:32 pm| 83 Comments

This post is in: Open Threads

There have been a lot of stories and ads, but this one really hit me:

I have a couple of personal experiences with women who have had abortions. But the one who has always stuck with me was a woman who was 16 wks pregnant and started to bleed. Her placenta had broken through the uterus and attached to her bladder. Immediate termination was her only hope, and even then, it was a critical situation.

He son was viable only in the sense that he was a healthy 16 wk fetus, had this not happened, he may have been a perfect full term baby.

So she was heartbroken, but she was going to die otherwise, and she had a husband and a two-year-old daughter to think about, too.

But the kicker, the reason I remember this so vividly, is because even though Roe was law, it had been fucked with enough that each state had to track abortions and report them. This woman was a strict Catholic (thankfully NOT having this crisis at a Catholic hospital, that’s another horror story for another day) and the doctor, if she were not restricted by politicians, could have put the actual cause of death on the certificate. But she had to put abortion, which decimated this woman further.

Anyway, I don’t want to restore Roe, I want to make abortion a legal right, without interference by any government entity, just a decision between a patient and a doctor. No exceptions, no restrictions.

Open thread

PowerfulPost + Comments (83)

After the Storm (Open Thread)

by Betty Cracker|  October 10, 20242:18 pm| 70 Comments

This post is in: Open Threads

I hate it when storms blow through at night. We lost power at 7:30 or so, and the peak wind from Milton arrived at our location (about 100 miles north of the landfall area) around midnight. We could hear trees falling and debris raining down on the roof all night, which was unnerving.

At first light, I let the dogs out. The poor creatures had been crossing their legs and really needed to pee! But there were obstacles on the stairs:

Hurricane debris on stairs

That didn’t slow Badger and Pete down — they wriggled under the debris and sought relief in the muddy, branch- and leaf-strewn yard. Then Bill cleared the stairs with the aid of a chainsaw.

It was a big-ass tree, and we’re really fortunate it didn’t cause structural damage, including to our well, which big trunks landed to the left and right of.

Downed trees

But mah bananas!

Banana tree stalk on the ground

The river came up more than a foot overnight. Unfortunately, it’ll keep on rising. I don’t think it will flood our downstairs, which is an enclosed game room and storage area. But we’re probably gonna have to move shit outta the way just in case. Ugh.

Pete is superintending the debris clearing:

Dog next to power saw

Meanwhile, I’m trying to mop the standing water off the porch. I told Bill I’d go fetch the shop-vac from downstairs for the task, but he reminded me it would require electricity. Duh!

Anyhoo, we’re feeling lucky. It could have been a lot worse. Our friends and family in the immediate impact zone are all okay. I hope the same is true of the Floridians who comment here. Let us know when you can.

As a bonus, Milton sucked all the humidity out to sea, and the weather is beautiful! It’s downright chilly, in fact; I had to put on socks and flannel!

Hopefully this means we’ve seen the last of hurricanes in 2024. Open thread!

After the Storm (Open Thread)Post + Comments (70)

Josh Marshall Has Some Thoughts about Polls

by WaterGirl|  October 10, 202411:45 am| 153 Comments

This post is in: Elections, Elections 2024, Open Threads, Politics

Here’s a free link to Josh Marshall’s members-only article on polling.

I’m glad he has the patience to write this all out because all I can personally muster is to say that the polls have gotten to be way more black magic and secret sauce, which I sometimes shorten to “ignore the polls, they’re more bullshit than science at that point, just do the work.”  Because I seem to be out of patience at the moment.

But lucky for us, Josh Marshall isn’t!

I wanted to share with you a few ideas, possible insights and caveats about campaign polls. These aren’t original to me in most cases, just some general points, observations, etc.

First, herding: Herding is the phenomenon in which even professional, good-faith polling operations start grouping together in the latter stages of a campaign because you don’t want to go too far out from the consensus numbers. Right now the national top lines have been between 2 and 4 points in Harris’ favor for a couple months. If you do a poll that gets you plus 10 in either direction, you’re going to think or are liable to think something’s wrong with your numbers. Somehow you’ve just got a spoiled set of data. Maybe you don’t release that poll or maybe you look again at the numbers and decide there are too few of some demographic subset and you re-weight that and it brings the topline back close to that 2-4 range.

It’s also the case that voter choice gets more settled in the final weeks of a campaign. So maybe the voters are actually herding themselves. There are lots of possibilities. But the general point here is that there are factors which can drive even ethical and professional pollsters in this herding direction.

It goes without saying that the more fly-by-nightish operations probably do this a lot. It’s sort of assumed that a lot of the junk pollsters let their freak flags fly for most of election season but then try to bring them in line with the herd in the final weeks to protect their reputations.

Implicit in the herding discussion above is what I’ve noted several times recently: the stability of this race is one of its most defining features. That could just be how settled the public mind is on this choice. It must be some of that. But I’ve heard another possibility proposed recently: Maybe pollsters are now modeling so aggressively that they’ve wrung all the movement out of the numbers?

Remember in earlier discussions I’ve noted that a poll is based not just on the 500 to 1,000 people polled but also on the pollster’s theory of the electorate. This is the art part of the art and science of polling. Modeling has become more aggressive as non-response has become a bigger and bigger problem. So you’re not just weighting men and women and Black people and white people but affluence, education levels, city vs. rural, how people say they voted last time, perhaps party identification. At a certain point you’re basically just saying you need 49% Trump supporters and 49% Harris supporters. I jest of course. But there could be something to this: maybe the race is so stable because the variability has been squeezed out through aggressive modeling. No one is proposing this as more than an idea, a “what if.” But it’s worth having in the back of our minds.

Next there’s an article you should read by Nate Cohn of the Times. It gets at a key methodological question about this year’s polling. Historically, it was always considered bad practice to weight polls based on how voters say they voted in the last election. Basically, people don’t always remember or tell the truth about how they voted. And it tends to pump up the advantage of the party that lost the last election. In other words, by traditional standards and accepted methodological considerations, by adding this voter recall weighting the pollsters have built a pro-Trump advantage into every result. But in an effort to more effectively avoid missing hidden Trump voters, most but not all pollsters decided to weight for voter recall for 2024. This isn’t obviously a bad idea, as Cohn explains. Polls did underestimate Trump in 2016 and 2020. And there are various ways pollsters have tried to account for the reasons why traditionally this isn’t a good idea to do. Cohn’s point and one I think he’s right to make is that that decision leads to two very different stories of the election. I’ve argued here and on the podcast that there’s as good a reason to think pollsters over-adjusted after 2024 as there is to expect Trump to again outdo the polls. Depending on how the race plays out it might be this specific decision that explains why one group or another of pollsters missed the mark.

Open thread.

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Update: A great list in the comments below from hrprogressive:

There are a myriad of problems that come with trying to provide “an accurate snapshot of how a state or national electorate might vote”.

1) The obvious miss of 2016 which all but coronated Hillary as President before she lost.

2) The obvious vested interest of the corporate-owned MSM in “the horserace”

3) The obvious vested interest of the pollsters commissioned by same in making sure there “is” a horserace.

4) The vested interest of the right-leaning business community/shareholders in oversampling their voting base to drive the narrative they are more popular than they really are.

5) The very real problem of having a base of “non-Trump Republicans” who aren’t full-blown cult members but for whom the idea of “voting for a Democrat” is still anathema.

6) The very real structural problems the fascist right have created by making it harder to vote, chiefly impacting the core constituency of the Democratic Party.

7) The very real concerns a lot of Millennial / Gen Z voters have that basically amounts to “what have you done for me lately?” when it comes to the Democratic Party not being nearly progressive enough for their tastes

8) The ratfucking problem of a very certain subset of terminally online leftists who are either accelerationists and/or have been disingenuous about the I/P issue.

9) A very specific subset of “undecided voters” who are, politely speaking, morons who do not understand the stakes of this election and/or what might happen to them and the people they care about if the Trump Reich comes to pass.

10) The very ugly truth that there is a subset of this country – it’s not “50%” but it’s not insignificant – who actually, truly, do want to see a Christofascist Theocratic Dictatorship and it doesn’t matter who’s at the top of the ticket, so long as they can seek out their specific agendas and aims, whether it’s eschatological, or just hypernationalistic or whatever.

11) The very real methodological problem of technology moving past how “issue polling” has even been conducted, and that the base of people willing to participate in “traditional polling” skews very old, and very conservative, and a lot of younger, more liberal opinions, just aren’t being captured, but, there hasn’t yet been a real substantive movement to address this in a way that is scientifically sound while more accurately representing the actual populace.

Josh Marshall Has Some Thoughts about PollsPost + Comments (153)

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