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Israel-Hamas War Update: Shrodinger’s Ceasefire

by Adam L Silverman|  November 23, 202312:02 pm| 51 Comments

This post is in: Foreign Affairs, Foreign Policy, Israel, Military, Open Threads, Palestine, Silverman on Security, War

Last night I put up a comment in my Ukraine war update thread indicating that the ceasefire had been pushed back (at least) a day:

💥Israeli NSA Tzachi Hanegbi announces a 24-hour delay in implementation of hostage release deal because Hamas & Qatar have yet to sign. No releases tomorrow. pic.twitter.com/rSZRBLS8JK

— Noga Tarnopolsky נגה טרנופולסקי نوغا ترنوبولسكي (@NTarnopolsky) November 22, 2023

As of this morning there appears to be forward movement:

The spokesman said Qatar recieved from both sides the lists of Isrseli hostages and Palestinian prisoners who will be released on Friday. He said the list of the hostages was authenticated and transferred to the Mossad

— Barak Ravid (@BarakRavid) November 23, 2023

BREAKING: Israeli Prime Minister's office confirms Israel received a list of hostages who will be released. "The list is being verified and the families are being notified", the PM office said

— Barak Ravid (@BarakRavid) November 23, 2023

We appear to be moving to implementation of the ceasefire and exchanges of Hamas and PIJ held hostages for Palestinian prisoners, fuel, and humanitarian supplies sometime tomorrow – Friday – AM.

💥Qatar announces Israeli-Hamas truce will start tomorrow at 7 am & 13 Israeli hostages (women and children) will be released at 4 pm. No word about how the hostages will be released or about Red Cross intervention. Qatar says Mossad director David Barnea has list of hostages.

— Noga Tarnopolsky נגה טרנופולסקי نوغا ترنوبولسكي (@NTarnopolsky) November 23, 2023

Of course things keep changing:

Israeli officials deny the reports that Egypt has received the list of the 10 hostages that are supposed to be freed on the first day of the hostage deal

— Amichai Stein (@AmichaiStein1) November 23, 2023

Barak Ravid’s reporting from last night at Axios after the jump: (emphasis mine)

show full post on front page

The four-day pause in fighting between Hamas and Israel in Gaza will begin at 7 am local time on Friday, with the first group of hostages set to be released later that day, a Qatari Foreign Ministry spokesperson said on Thursday.

Driving the news: The announcement of the timeline for the Qatar-mediated deal came after a brief delay in the implementation of the agreement, which will see Hamas free at least 50 Israeli women and children in exchange for a multi-day pause in the fighting in Gaza and the release of 150 Palestinian women and children held in Israeli prisons.

  • But Qatar received the lists of the first groups of Israeli hostages and Palestinian prisoners who will be released, paving the way for the implementation of the deal to begin on Friday. The first group of hostages is expected to be released at 4 pm local time.
  • Hamas’ military wing also confirmed the pause in fighting is set to begin on Friday at 7 am local time.
  • The Israeli Prime Minister’s Office confirmed that Israel has received a list of hostages who will be released on Friday. “The list is being verified and the families are being notified,” the office said.

Details: The initial 50 hostages are expected to be released in four groups over the four-day pause in what has been described as the first phase of the deal, according to Israeli officials who briefed reporters.

  • The Israeli officials also expressed cautious optimism that Hamas will agree to release additional hostages in exchange for Israel extending the pause in fighting. Under the agreement, Israel will extend the pause for every 10 additional hostages released.
  • “We know Hamas are holding at least 70-80 women and children and that we can get all of them,” one of the officials said.

According to Israeli estimates, 40 children under the age of 19 and 13 mothers were abducted and brought to Gaza during the Oct. 7 terrorist attack.

  • The Israeli officials said they believe other factions in Gaza are holding at least some of the children, but they are ready to give Hamas incentives to locate all of them.

There is more at the link!

I want to emphasize, again, that Sinwar/Hamas DO NOT know where all the hostages are, let alone the women and children. As such, Sinwar does not know if they’re alive or dead. And as we get into the second, third, and fourth day of this ceasefire this reality is going to become a major problem. Especially as Sinwar is getting far more from this temporary ceasefire than Bibi is. Sinwar has agreed to exchange at last 50 and up to 70 women and children hostages, which may not be possible because Hamas is not holding all of them. In exchange, Sinwar gets at least a four day stop in Israeli combat operations, three Palestinian prisoners – Palestinian women and children – currently incarcerated in Israel prisons on terrorism convictions for each Israeli hostage, fuel, and humanitarian supplies.

Just a note: the Palestinian prisoners are not really terrorists. These are largely women and children charged and convicted on nuisance charges, such as throwing rocks at IDF armored vehicles in east Jerusalem or the occupied West Bank or otherwise resisting the way that Israel’s security forces treat the Palestinians. For instance, under orders from/with the approval of convicted terrorist Ben Gvir, last week the Israelis demolished the house of a 13 year old Palestinian boy convicted as a terrorist for attacking an Israeli police officer. The actual details are that a child angry at being mistreated tried to stab an Israeli cop in east Jerusalem. He was disarmed, but another officer in the attempt to shoot and kill the boy missed and shot and killed the first cop. So the Israelis charged the 13 year old with terrorism and murder. I don’t know if he’ll be part of this prisoner exchange, but if he is, he has no home to go back to.

שימו לב לכך שקטאר בהודעתה מדגישה את כוונתה לכך שהפסקת האש הזאת תוביל לסיום המלחמה – וזה בדיוק היעד מספר אחת של חמאס https://t.co/rn7XdhyKZ8

— Elior Levy • אליאור לוי (@eliorlevy) November 23, 2023

Quote tweet:

Please note that Qatar in its statement emphasizes its intention that this ceasefire will lead to the end of the war – and this is exactly the number one goal of Hamas

Quoted tweet:

I have said this a lot in the last two weeks, but it is important to emphasize again: the prisoners who will be released as part of a deal with Israel (who are far from the definition of serious prisoners) are not of interest to Hamas.

What is critical for Hamas is this: a cease-fire as long as possible through which it will try to manipulate that will lead to an end to the war and to saving its leadership and rule in the Strip

There are a lot of moving pieces here and it appears the details are changing on the fly.

💥BBC cites "Israeli government source," saying Hamas has made "additional demands… though it’s not clear what those demands are." The @WSJ says Hamas is refusing to allow the Red Cross to visit hostages remaining in captivity. Qatar promises an imminent update. pic.twitter.com/C7eyTMXGkv

— Noga Tarnopolsky נגה טרנופולסקי نوغا ترنوبولسكي (@NTarnopolsky) November 23, 2023

Hamas keeps changing its terms/requirements. The International Committee of the Red Cross is still saying it hasn’t been contacted to facilitate the exchanges. And Bibi decided to dial the rhetoric back up in his press conference last night.

💥Netanyahu's threats to kill Hamas leaders Ismail Haniyeh & Khaled Mashal are provoking puzzlement & concern in Israel, on the eve of a deal with these two men. As in, we know you wanna kill them. Why make a big announcement about it? https://t.co/Z0UprRiLF6

— Noga Tarnopolsky נגה טרנופולסקי نوغا ترنوبولسكي (@NTarnopolsky) November 22, 2023

This was in response to Hamas leaders Ismail Haniyeh and Khaled Meshal apparently not understanding the gravity of the situation that the 7 October attack has created for them:

💥"Those who met Hamas leaders Ismail Haniyeh & Khaled Mashal came away with the sense they're euphoric. Haniyeh conveys to those present at meetings that Hamas will manage to maintain rule even the day after. It is obvious they've not grasped what happened in Gaza." @eliorlevy

— Noga Tarnopolsky נגה טרנופולסקי نوغا ترنوبولسكي (@NTarnopolsky) November 22, 2023

Here’s the reporting by Elior Levy that Noga Tarnopolsky is referring too:

ציטוטים יוצאי דופן מהחדרים הסגורים של שניים בשמם המלא (לא גורמים בחמאס ולא בכירים בחמאס): איסמעיל הנייה וחאלד משעל.

אלו העדויות שהגיעו אליי על מה חושבת הנהגת חמאס על המלחמה ועל עתיד רצועת עזה, ומה הם משדרים לגורמים שישבו איתם באותם חדרים בשבועיים האחרונים. וזה לא פחות ממדהים: https://t.co/oa6HL6qkmY

— Elior Levy • אליאור לוי (@eliorlevy) November 22, 2023

Quote tweet:

Extraordinary quotes from the closed rooms of two by their full names (neither Hamas officials nor senior Hamas officials): Ismail Haniyeh and Khaled Mashal.

These are the testimonies that have reached me about what the Hamas leadership thinks about the war and the future of the Gaza Strip, and what they are conveying to those who have sat in the same rooms with them for the past two weeks. And it is nothing less than amazing:

Quoted tweet:

“It’s clear that they didn’t get the message and they don’t really understand what’s happening in the Gaza Strip”: how does the Hamas leadership treat the war?

@eliorlevy with the exclusive testimonies of sources who recently met with Ismail Haniyeh and Khaled Mashal
#חדשותהערב

While all of this is going on, Bibi and his extremist coalition partners are continuing to overturn Israel’s constitutional order by fiat using the state of emergency as cover for their actions. What they could not achieve legislatively in the spring, they are going to force into place under cover of the war.

בתגובה אומרים בסביבת לוין שנושא מינוי נשיא לעליון גם יידון בישיבה ב14 בדצמבר, ללא הצבעה על המינוי. הם מוסיפים שמדובר בטעות "סמנטית" וכי תחת הכותרת של דיון שופטי עליון הכוונה גם לדיון על נשיא עליון. נחכה ונראה

— aviad glickman (@aviadglickman) November 23, 2023

First tweet:

First publication: At the height of the fighting, Justice Minister Yariv Levin continues to delay the election of a permanent president of the Supreme Court: He set a hearing of the committee for the selection of judges on December 14, which is intended for a discussion on the election of supreme judges, but without a discussion on a supreme president. It is simply inconceivable that Levin still believes that the legal coup laws should be promoted

Second tweet:

In response, people around Levin say that the issue of appointing a president to the Supreme Court will also be discussed at the meeting on December 14, without a vote on the appointment. They add that this is a “semantic” mistake and that under the title of Supreme Courts’ discussion, it is also meant to be a discussion about a Supreme President. We will wait and see

💥Netanyahu continues his coup d'État after promising "the judicial reform is not on the table." (Please look shocked.) https://t.co/JESwS6HL3f

— Noga Tarnopolsky נגה טרנופולסקי نوغا ترنوبولسكي (@NTarnopolsky) November 23, 2023

And it isn’t just the judiciary, he’s going full Putin, Orban, Erdogan, and Trump:

לאור הפצה באופן עקבי של "תעמולה תבוסתנית ושקרית, וחתירה נגד מדינת ישראל בשעת המלחמה" בעיתון הארץ, הגשתי כעת לממשלה, הצעת מחליטים להפסקת המימון של עיתון הארץ, כולל הפסקת הפרסום ודמי המנוי של כלל המשתמשים בשירות המדינה, כולל צה"ל, משטרה, שב"ס, משרדי ממשלה וכל חברה ממשלתית. pic.twitter.com/qdbH1K96kX

— 🇮🇱שלמה קרעי – Shlomo Karhi (@shlomo_karhi) November 23, 2023

In light of the consistent distribution of “defeatist and false propaganda, and incitement against the State of Israel during the war” in the Haaretz newspaper, I have now submitted to the government, a resolution proposal to stop the funding of the Haaretz newspaper, including the cessation of publication and the subscription fees of all users of the state service, including the IDF, police, SHBS, government offices and any government company.

 

💥Netanyahu's coup d'État does not stop for wars https://t.co/kV16lF7IUu

— Noga Tarnopolsky נגה טרנופולסקי نوغا ترنوبولسكي (@NTarnopolsky) November 23, 2023

ההסברה הישראלית לעולם: "יש פה מאבק בין ארגון טרור רצחני לבין הדמוקרטיה היחידה במזרח התיכון"

שר התקשורת הישראלי לעולם: "תראו איך אני מנסה לחסל את העיתון הישראלי שהכי מוכר בחו"ל, כדי לקושש לייקים מהבייס"

בחייאת, שרי ממשלת ישראל. מילא שאתם לא עוזרים בכלום, אבל לפחות אל תפריעו https://t.co/u2wTWuNBaH

— Yair Tarchitsky (@yairtar) November 23, 2023

Israeli propaganda to the world: “There is a struggle here between a murderous terrorist organization and the only democracy in the Middle East”

The Israeli Minister of Communications to the world: “Look how I am trying to eliminate the Israeli newspaper that is best known abroad, in order to gain likes from the base”

Haiyat, ministers of the Israeli government. It’s true that you’re not helping anything, but at least don’t get in the way

Never go full Putin, Orban, Erdogan, and Trump!

The notifications of who is being released are going well:

💥THEY ARE HEARING ABOUT THIS LIKE YOU. Netanyahu's hostage point man says liaison officers will call families about whose hostages release "we have initial or complete information. There will also be outreach to families of children not on list &finally to those of all hostages"

— Noga Tarnopolsky נגה טרנופולסקי نوغا ترنوبولسكي (@NTarnopolsky) November 23, 2023

💥All families of Israeli hostages to be released have received their calls. https://t.co/FIXiqYwqs4

— Noga Tarnopolsky נגה טרנופולסקי نوغا ترنوبولسكي (@NTarnopolsky) November 23, 2023

💥The families of Israeli hostages are being tortured https://t.co/LZsBaZaORE

— Noga Tarnopolsky נגה טרנופולסקי نوغا ترنوبولسكي (@NTarnopolsky) November 23, 2023

This is already a shit show. And it is going to get worse. Especially when families find out Sinwar can’t locate their family members or that they have died while being held by the PIJ or the Gazan criminal gangs that took them!

Finally, Princess asked this question in the comments to my Ukraine war update last night:

On Israel — so we have been told that the Hamas assault was intended to grab hostages that could be used in a big prisoner swap. Makes sense from events. But after six weeks Sinwar still doesn’t know where they are? Knows so little he can’t even cobble together fifty women and children to hand over out of 200+? Something isn’t holding together. Is it a sign of conflict among the jihadists? Is he lying? Are most of them already dead?

The answer is that Sinwar’s Hamas fighters were not the only hostage takers. Nor does he actually care about them. What he wants is to keep the consensus of the war – its causes, how it is being prosecuted by both sides – firmly focused on Israel. He wants people who know better – like Martin Griffiths – to make stupid statements like this:

When Griffiths says it’s “the worst ever”, he disregards 25,000 children who died in Syria, children who are approx. 70% of the 377,000 casualties in Yemen, 8,000 children who died In Afghanistan, and higher numbers in the war that is happening right now in Ethiopia.
I wonder why https://t.co/50Z7BrISsm

— Efrat Lachter (@EfratLachter) November 23, 2023

What does an antisemite look like?

It looks like Martin Griffiths @UNReliefChief saying on CNN the situation in Gaza is “the worst he’s ever seen.” Not over 1.5 million people murdered in Cambodia when he was there, not the half a million in Rwanda or the half a million in Syria https://t.co/MkaNwC3vMB

— יאיר לפיד – Yair Lapid (@yairlapid) November 23, 2023

Sinwar wants the discussion to be that the IDF found no evidence that Hamas was using al Shifa Hospital as cover for its operations, despite facts indicating otherwise:

Visual analysis shows exact path of Hamas tunnels under Al-Shifa hospital: 160 meters – with rooms, bathrooms, kitchenette, comms, electricity and air conditioning – run under the internal medicine ward and emergency generator building
with @YardenMichaelihttps://t.co/kpAay87Kwo

— avi scharf (@avischarf) November 23, 2023

and here's Haaretz's own @yanivkub reporting from inside

Did Hamas operate under Al-Shifa? A tour of the tunnels leaves no room for doubt https://t.co/GjUjHjPmg0

— avi scharf (@avischarf) November 23, 2023

When you consider the sourcing, remember that Israel’s government, as indicated above, is now going after Haaretz for not being suitably sycophantic and jingoistic in its reporting.

Finally, he also wants to be able to protect his assets. Via the Internet archive, here’s The Economist‘s accounting of Hamas’s war chest, which you’ll notice they’re not using to improve the lives of anyone in Gaza:

Viewed from one of Istanbul’s glitziest restaurants, the Bosphorus looks sublime. The venue is a favoured haunt of mandarins, businessmen, minor celebrities—and Hamas’s financiers. A man on whom America has imposed sanctions for funding the Islamist group describes his various board seats. “It’s ridiculous,” he says, of America’s accusation, but eventually admits, “now, if you’re asking what our employees do with their own money, why would I know?”

Hamas has three sources of power: its physical force inside Gaza, the reach of its ideas and its income. Since Hamas’s attacks on October 7th, Israel has killed more than 12,000 Palestinians in Gaza in seeking to wreck the first. But Israel’s declared goal of destroying Hamas for good requires its financial base to be dismantled, too. Very little of this sits in Gaza at all. Instead, it is overseas in friendly countries. Furnished with money-launderers, mining companies and much else, Hamas’s financial empire is reckoned to bring in more than $1bn a year. Having been painstakingly crafted to avoid Western sanctions, it may be out of reach for Israel and its allies.

Hamas’s income pays for everything from schoolteachers’ salaries to missiles. Around $360m each year comes from import taxes on goods brought into Gaza from the West Bank or Egypt. This is the easiest source of cash for Israel to strangle. After withdrawing from the strip in 2005, it strictly limited the movement of goods and people across the border. Now it stops even most basic necessities from getting in.

A much larger income stream, though, comes from abroad. Israeli officials reckon this amounts to around $750m per year, making it the main source of funding for Hamas’s current stockpile of arms and fuel. Some comes from friendly governments, the biggest of which is Iran. America reckons that the ayatollahs provide $100m to Palestinian Islamist groups, mainly in military aid. The task for Hamas’s financiers is to move this money around without falling prey to America’s sanctions. In the past month alone, American officials have imposed three rounds of restrictions on people and companies for funding Hamas.

Dodging American sanctions requires some ingenuity. Millions of dollars flow to Hamas through crypto markets. “You’d be surprised how much of the market’s activity comes back to [Hamas],” says Firuze Segzin, an economist at Bilkent University. America’s treasury department says Hamas has smuggled more than $20m through Redin, a currency exchange crammed among tourist shops deep in Istanbul’s run-down Fatih neighbourhood.

But the lion’s share of Hamas’s money—at least $500m a year, say Israeli officials—comes from its investments, some of which are firms registered in countries across the Middle East. These are run by professionals from Hamas’s investment office and employ its members. American officials say the firms donate to charities which in turn funnel funds to Hamas; Turkish officials say profits are sometimes taken directly. Untangling these revenue streams is tricky for Western regulators. One such firm built the Afra Mall, Sudan’s first shopping mall, while another mines near Khartoum, its capital. A third built skyscrapers in Sharjah, in the United Arab Emirates (uae). Many of these companies boast of their business deals, but deny affiliation with Hamas.

Can any revenue streams remaining to Hamas be choked off? That depends on the countries through which they flow. Since 1989, when Israel arrested a handful of Hamas’s top brass in Gaza and the West Bank, its bankers have lived abroad. Over time, though, geopolitical shifts have forced them to keep moving. Hamas abandoned its first financial hub, Amman, after Jordan’s ties to America grew too close.

Today, while Hamas’s politicians favour Doha, the capital of Qatar, and its companies range from Algeria and Sudan to the uae, its financiers live in Istanbul. Zaher Jabarin, accused by Israel of running Hamas’s finances (which he denies), is based there, as are several other individuals under sanctions by America for funding the organisation. Eager to gain regional influence by supporting the Palestinian cause, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, Turkey’s president, offers shelter. Israel says that the Turkish government hands out passports (which it denies) and lets Hamas keep an office in the country.

Meanwhile, Turkey’s banking system helps Hamas dodge American sanctions by conducting complex transactions across the world. A booming, lightly regulated crypto market helps. Many of Turkey’s biggest banks, including Kuveyt Turk, have been accused by Israel and America of knowingly storing Hamas’s cash. Some murmur that Mr Erdogan quietly approves. In 2021 the Financial Action Task Force, a g7 watchdog, placed Turkey on its “grey list” of countries doing too little to freeze terrorists’ assets.

No one benefits more than Hamas’s businessmen. The Turkish government’s tacit approval “opens doors and makes things smooth in business”, says one of the group’s finance employees. Trend gyo, an Istanbul-listed firm that has been placed under sanctions by America for funnelling funds to Hamas, won an official contract to build Istanbul Commerce University. Construction companies, which feature heavily in Hamas’s portfolio, can quietly swallow huge lumps of cash, and regularly receive large loans. All this allows Turkish officials to say that they are not directly lining Hamas’s pockets.

So far, Hamas seems financially bulletproof. Israel has inflicted little harm on either its income or savings; Turkey’s banks have been unco-operative. America’s numerous sanctions are less effective if their targets can keep cash outside its banking system. And Hamas hides its companies well. “Every time you think you’ve got a big fish, it changes its name,” despairs one ex-Treasury official.

In fact, the risk is that Hamas’s finances will improve. As Israel steps up its attacks on Gaza, Western governments may blanch at the humanitarian horror. Countries with pro-Palestinian populations may make it even easier for Hamas to earn money. For months, rumours have circulated that some civil servants in Mr Erdogan’s economic ministry are co-ordinating with Hamas’s finance office.

For Israel, Hamas growing richer despite the war would be a disaster. With its wealth and financial roots intact, it—or a similar organisation—may well flourish after the destruction. Gazans, meanwhile, have been plunged into tragedy so that Israel can destroy a group whose money and power are safely ensconced elsewhere. Compare their plight to the picture in Istanbul: eating lobster and gazing at the Bosphorus.

That’s enough for today.

Open thread!

Israel-Hamas War Update: Shrodinger’s CeasefirePost + Comments (51)

Happy Thanksgiving: May Your Day Be Peaceful

by TaMara|  November 23, 202311:58 am| 44 Comments

This post is in: Open Threads

Happy Thanksgiving: May Your Day Be Peaceful

This is one of my Zebra Grasses – harvested from a friend’s yard a couple of years ago

I’m off to a Friendsgiving this year. My friend recently lost her mom and today of all days, is her mom’s birthday, so going to her house and helping her cook for a crowd seemed like a no-brainer. I’m bringing the Cranberry Upside Down Cake and helping hands to peel and chop and a strong shoulder to lean on if needed.

 

Happy Thanksgiving: May Your Day Be Peaceful 2

I’m not a big fan of winter, but one of the nice things is when the foilage is all gone, I get a nice mountain view with spectacular winter sunsets.

Be kind to yourself today and if you find yourself at a table with obnoxious relatives…try not to stab anyone with the carving knife.

Open thread

 

 

Happy Thanksgiving: May Your Day Be PeacefulPost + Comments (44)

Thursday Morning Open Thread: Happy Thanksgiving

by Anne Laurie|  November 23, 20237:20 am| 213 Comments

This post is in: Excellent Links, Open Threads, Schadenfreude

Thursday Morning Open Thread:  Happy Thanksgiving

(Pluggers via GoComics.com)

Them: Don't talk about gerrymandering during Thanksgiving

Me: pic.twitter.com/5ZRSVywfbD

— The Redistrict Network (@RedistrictNet) November 22, 2023

How to avoid talking politics at Thanksgiving? Consider a 'NO MAGA ALLOWED' sign.

Please enjoy my sensible holiday suggestions:https://t.co/O1q5KOQzKy

— Rex Huppke (@RexHuppke) November 19, 2023

Schadenfreude interlude: Rex Huppke, at USAToday, on “How to avoid talking politics at Thanksgiving? Consider a ‘NO MAGA ALLOWED’ sign”:

It’s almost Thanksgiving, that special day of the year when most Americans are forced to spend time with relatives they don’t like in return for large amounts of food they do like.

While the whole social/gastronomic experiment unfolds, one topic invariably pops up and transforms the day from “Well, this is annoying, but at least there’s pie” to “Oh God, I have to get out of here before I stab cousin Melvin with the wishbone.” That topic, of course, is politics.

It has never been a good subject to float during family gatherings. But in the age of former president and overachieving criminal defendant Donald Trump, it has become more explosive than your drunk uncle adding “just a bit more oil” to the turkey fryer…

show full post on front page

NO MAGA ALLOWED, or something along those lines
If you don’t like Donald Trump and hope he is sentenced to live under a bridge with a particularly ill-tempered troll named Gnarlfart the Gaseous, simply post a “prohibited” sign on your front door that shows the word “MAGA” with a large red slash through it…

If mee-maw says ‘Hunter Biden’ at Thanksgiving, run!
Keep your ears peeled for red-flag words and be prepared to create a diversion. For example, if you hear a grandparent say the words “rigged election” or “COVID hoax” or “Biden crime family,” you should immediately set the tablecloth on fire. By the time it’s put out and everyone has settled down, the toxic subject will hopefully be forgotten and everyone can eat their sweet potatoes in peace.

Find the Libertarian everybody hates
One way to keep Thanksgiving tolerable is to invite what I call an ELR, or “emergency libertarian relative.” While technically nobody wants to hear anything from a libertarian at any point in time, ever, their presence can be unifying, in that both MAGA and non-MAGA relatives will find them insufferable. Nothing brings people together quite like a shared enemy. The ideal approach is to keep your ELR in a soundproof, human-size glass container and then, if needed, break the glass…

Thursday Morning Open Thread: Happy ThanksgivingPost + Comments (213)

Open Thread and Thanksgiving Zoom Reminder

by WaterGirl|  November 23, 20237:00 am| 8 Comments

This post is in: Balloon Juice, Open Threads

Hey everybody!

Just a quick reminder that we are having a Balloon Juice Thanksgiving zoom tomorrow.  The original “who’s up for a Thanksgiving Zoom” post is linked below.

Time:  7 – 10 pm Eastern

Date:  Thanksgiving evening

RSVP:  send email to WaterGirl and you will receive the zoom link

Who’s Up for a Thanksgiving Zoom? (Open Thead)

If you have any questions, ask them, but otherwise this is a totally open thread!

Open Thread and Thanksgiving Zoom ReminderPost + Comments (8)

Late Night Open Thread: Thanksgiving Travel, Always A Hassle

by Anne Laurie|  November 23, 20233:19 am| 49 Comments

This post is in: Open Threads, Our Failed Media Experiment

Another casualty of rock and roll. https://t.co/yo8vBPfG6I

— Charles P. Pierce (@CharlesPPierce) November 23, 2023

Fox News: We regret to inform you that the explosion at the Rainbow Bridge was not in fact a terror attack.

— The Volatile Mermaid (@OhNoSheTwitnt) November 22, 2023

Nicole Hollander’s Sylvia cartoon strip had a running gag about hapless individuals bargaining with the Devil for a less embarrassing form of death. Trading ‘Spent the afternoon at a casino, before running my Bentley over a barrier at the border and shutting down the NY/Canada border’ would definitely be an upgrade from ‘Tried to outrun a DUI stop at the border after having a KISS concert cancelled from under us’. Still highly undignified, for both the unfortunate individuals and the right-winger who seized upon the incident as ANOTHER TERROR ATTACK WHY DOES BIDEN DO NOTHING?!?…

Per CNN:

There is no indication of terrorism after an explosion killed two people in a car that crashed at the US-Canada Rainbow Bridge border crossing on Wednesday, New York Gov. Kathy Hochul said.

All four bridges between Canada and the United States near Niagara Falls were closed immediately after the incident, according to the governor. The Peace, Whirlpool and Lewiston-Queenston bridges reopened later Wednesday, while the Rainbow Bridge remained closed, she said…

Here’s what we know:

High-speed vehicle: Investigators believe a man was traveling with his wife in a 2022 Bentley at a high rate of speed when the vehicle hit a curb, then a guardrail that sent the vehicle airborne into the secondary screening area of Rainbow Bridge, law enforcement sources told CNN. The man had plans to attend a KISS concert in Canada but when that was canceled, the man went to a casino in the US instead, investigators believe. The crash occurred sometime after the couple left the casino, law enforcement sources said. Footage on social media and from surveillance cameras shows the remains strewn about with thick smoke and fire billowing. A border patrol employee in a booth also suffered minor injuries, Hochul said…

Travel headaches: The explosion on the eve of the US Thanksgiving holiday led to closures and delays on a busy travel day. International flights in and out of Buffalo Niagara International Airport were briefly halted while other travelers there were warned they could expect additional screening…

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Lol https://t.co/9wJCTbOFt6

— The Volatile Mermaid (@OhNoSheTwitnt) November 22, 2023

#NEW Statement from #FBI Buffalo regarding the investigation at Rainbow Bridge: pic.twitter.com/4lwvq8PsAe

— FBI Buffalo (@FBIBuffalo) November 23, 2023

When autocorrect goes very, very wrong pic.twitter.com/K2P7q27OYi

— Three Year Letterman (@3YearLetterman) November 22, 2023

Late Night Open Thread: Thanksgiving Travel, Always A HasslePost + Comments (49)

War for Ukraine Day 637: The Second Winter Campaign of Ukraine’s Defense Against Russia’s Genocidal Re-invasion Has Begun

by Adam L Silverman|  November 22, 20239:50 pm| 25 Comments

This post is in: Foreign Affairs, Foreign Policy, Military, Open Threads, Russia, Silverman on Security, War, War in Ukraine

Quick housekeeping note: the Israel-Hamas ceasefire is supposed to start tomorrow at 10:00 AM Gaza/Israel time. I’ll try to get a late morning update about that if there’s anything important. I still think the major issue is that Sinwar still does not have all the hostages, let alone all the women and children, does not know where they all are, and does not know what kind of condition they’re in. And that is going to a problem from the start.

Thus the Russian-Ukrainian war's second winter campaign begins.

— Illia Ponomarenko 🇺🇦 (@IAPonomarenko) November 22, 2023

The first snows have fallen across Ukraine. Requests to conserve power have been made. The second winter campaign has begun.

Here is President Zelenskyy’s address from earlier today. Video below, English transcript after the jump.

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A regular meeting in the Ramstein format was held, there are new packages of support for Ukraine and our warriors – address by President Volodymyr Zelenskyy

22 November 2023 – 20:48

I wish you health, fellow Ukrainians!

I have just spoken with Argentina’s President-elect Milei about how to make our relations – Ukraine and Argentina, Ukraine and Latin America – more active. I congratulated Mr. Milei on his election. I invited him to visit Ukraine, and it would be an important signal – a signal of non-indifference. Of course, I informed him about all we have already achieved in the implementation of our Peace Formula. I invited Argentina to show its leadership in joint peacemaking efforts.

Today a regular meeting in the Ramstein format was held – the 17th one already. There are also new packages of support for Ukraine – for our warriors. These include shells and missiles, electronic warfare and drones, new capacities for our air defense. A corresponding coalition has been established – the air defense development coalition. The leaders in its organization are Germany and France. I am grateful for this leadership. I am also grateful to every country that participates in these efforts, which enable our cities and villages to be more protected from Russian attacks. Not everything can be said publicly yet, but Ukraine’s sky shield is getting more powerful literally every month.

In the near future, I expect Defense Minister Umerov to report on the results of this Ramstein.

I held a meeting today on our European and Euro-Atlantic integration. On what needs to be done now – by mid-December – for the European Union to fulfill its promise to start negotiations with Ukraine in response to our progress – to the fulfillment of all the recommendations of the European Commission. At this meeting, we also discussed how we are moving forward in our relations with NATO – in our integration into the Alliance.

It was a fairly broad group of participants – all the sectors involved, all our institutions we expect activity from. The Chairman of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine, the Prime Minister, the relevant Deputy Prime Minister, the Minister of Defense, the Minister of Foreign Affairs, the Head of the Office and his relevant deputies, as well as the Chief of the General Staff.

First of all, we discussed the transition of our Defense Forces to NATO standards. In various spheres. Much has already been done. But procurement, planning, and many internal procedures deserve to be modernized.

We also need to take the steps that our warriors are waiting for. There is also a clear commitment of the Ministry of Defense to the relevant decisions. There is also good, meaningful communication with partners in the Alliance – we are truly working together to further strengthen our Euro-Atlantic community.

As for the European Union, today we agreed on a list of measures and steps that can add the necessary unity to the European community. Most of our partners clearly see our progress – Ukraine’s full implementation of all recommendations. We are also implementing now what we could have done closer to spring, according to the agreed plans. Everyone in the EU needs to see how serious Ukraine is, how clearly we are doing what is required.

And one more thing.

Today, the usual morning conference call featured several important reports.

The work of our export corridor has yielded positive results, with almost 5.5 million tons of cargo already shipped. Africa, Asia, Europe – from Spain to China. I thank everyone who ensures safety in the Black Sea and who works in our ports.

Today we also heard reports from the military on the situation on the frontline. In all those areas where it is particularly difficult now. The Kupyansk, Bakhmut, Avdiivka and Maryinka sectors. I thank each of our soldiers, sergeants and officers whose resilience is now protecting the whole of Ukraine, each of them who is destroying the occupiers with power and courage.

The 14th, 53rd, 110th separate mechanized brigades and the 57th and 59th separate motorized infantry brigades should be especially recognized for their results these days. Warriors, I am proud of each of you! I am grateful for your strength!

I thank everyone in our society who helps the Defense Forces, who works to make the whole country stronger, and who does not forget that the success of Ukraine is the success of people’s resistance, people’s defense, our maximum unity for the sake of defense and freedom for the whole of Ukraine, for all Ukrainians. Anyone who adds to Ukraine’s confidence, anyone who adds to Ukraine’s results, adds to the guarantees of our independence as well.

Glory to Ukraine!

Today was 17th meeting of the Ukraine Defense Contact Group.

"The only language russia can understand is power. And we learned this language well."
Minister @rustem_umerov at the opening of the 17th Ukraine Defence Contact Group meeting #Ramstein17. pic.twitter.com/btS9C2d7Ok

— Defense of Ukraine (@DefenceU) November 22, 2023

Abrams, Challengers, Leopards, Bradleys, Caesars, M 270 MLRS, M 777 Howitzers, Zuzanas, HIMARS, ATACMS, Patriots, NASAMS, Bayraktars — and hundreds of other weaponry your governments have provided — make us stronger in our fight with aggressor.

— Defense of Ukraine (@DefenceU) November 22, 2023

Our people are all waiting for a chance to come back home. To rebuild their house. To be back with their families.
For a year and a half now, your support brings us closer to home.

— Defense of Ukraine (@DefenceU) November 22, 2023

1. A new Ground-Based Air Defence coalition has been formed. Germany and France took leadership. The coalition includes 20 countries. Providing our cities with additional air defence is one of the priorities for this winter.

— Defense of Ukraine (@DefenceU) November 22, 2023

3. As a result of yesterday's visit by the 🇩🇪 Minister of Defense, Germany has already announced $1.4 billion aid package, which includes 4 IRIS-T systems, 8,000 new anti-tank mines, 1 Patriot system, 155 mm artillery ammunition. It will arrive in Ukraine by mid-December.

— Defense of Ukraine (@DefenceU) November 22, 2023

5. The UK and Norway, within the framework of the Maritime Coalition, will look for ways to further strengthen security in the Black Sea.

— Defense of Ukraine (@DefenceU) November 22, 2023

We have some updates on what is being provided in this round of aid:

Germany is one of the leaders in providing military assistance to Ukraine.

We are grateful to our German friends for their new military aid package, which includes:
◾️20 Marder IFVs with ammunition
◾️1 Winsent-1 mine clearing tank
◾️5 Warthog Ambulance tracked carriers
◾️2,380…

— Defense of Ukraine (@DefenceU) November 22, 2023

Germany is one of the leaders in providing military assistance to Ukraine.

We are grateful to our German friends for their new military aid package, which includes:
◾️20 Marder IFVs with ammunition
◾️1 Winsent-1 mine clearing tank
◾️5 Warthog Ambulance tracked carriers
◾️2,380 rounds 155mm ammunition
◾️2,428 Crypto Phones
◾️2 8×8 HX81 truck tractor trains
◾️2 semi-trailers
◾️9 vehicles (trucks, minibuses, all-terrain vehicles)
◾️2 ambulances

🇺🇦🤝🇩🇪
#StandWithUkraine
@BMVg_Bundeswehr

The National Assembly of Bulgaria ratified the Agreement between the 🇧🇬 Ministry of Internal Affairs and the 🇺🇦 Ministry of Defense for the free provision of armored transport equipment (100 Armored Personal Carriers).

We are grateful to the Bulgarian partners for important…

— Defense of Ukraine (@DefenceU) November 22, 2023

The National Assembly of Bulgaria ratified the Agreement between the 🇧🇬 Ministry of Internal Affairs and the 🇺🇦 Ministry of Defense for the free provision of armored transport equipment (100 Armored Personal Carriers).

We are grateful to the Bulgarian partners for important military support in our fight against aggression.

🇺🇦🤝🇧🇬
#StandWithUkraine

🇺🇦One more new package of military support from Lithuania has reached Ukraine today

🇱🇹@LTU_Army delivered 3 million units of 7.62×51 mm ammunition, remote detonation systems & winter equipment to the Ukrainian Armed Forces

Our commitment to assist Ukraine remains unbreakable pic.twitter.com/IkA508EMFL

— Lithuanian MOD 🇱🇹 (@Lithuanian_MoD) November 22, 2023

Russian occupied Crimea:

The Crimean wind of change.

As @DI_Ukraine points out, the Crimea Bridge is a completely unnecessary structure. pic.twitter.com/aRBe34y8n8

— Defense of Ukraine (@DefenceU) November 22, 2023

Bucha:

A bit of the winter wonderland that has descended upon Bucha overnight, FYI.

It's the town's eastern part that lies in a quiet pinewood.
I love this freshness and this pre-Christmas time vibe.

After all the suffering and all the blood it saw under Russian occupation, Bucha… pic.twitter.com/5s3CbylMwC

— Illia Ponomarenko 🇺🇦 (@IAPonomarenko) November 22, 2023

A bit of the winter wonderland that has descended upon Bucha overnight, FYI.

It’s the town’s eastern part that lies in a quiet pinewood.
I love this freshness and this pre-Christmas time vibe.

After all the suffering and all the blood it saw under Russian occupation, Bucha deserves peace, mulled wine, and warmth in those houses.

Kyiv:

Winter arrived in Kyiv. We awoke to the first snowfall in the Ukrainian capital. It looks beautiful but this is also an ominous sign that we’re entering a period of brutal cold when Russia’s likely to step up missile attacks and try to destroy Ukraine’s energy infrastructure. pic.twitter.com/OSKO6nJRA1

— Christopher Miller (@ChristopherJM) November 22, 2023

The left bank of the Dnipro, Russian occupied Kherson:

https://twitter.com/wartranslated/status/1727296862380765186

Zaporizhzhia Oblast:

The first documented loss of the Russian Plastun-SN tracked all-terrain armoured vehicle. Russian military received the first batch of this equipment at the end of October 2023. https://t.co/BiabnMKrzU pic.twitter.com/7LUKPogoGR

— Special Kherson Cat 🐈🇺🇦 (@bayraktar_1love) November 22, 2023

Ukrainian artillery using conventional and cluster ammunition is continuing to heavily decimate Russian ranks, not only in the Avdiivka sector but also in the Zaporizhzhia region.

Source: https://t.co/L4J9L9daRw#Ukraine #Zaporizhzhia pic.twitter.com/aF1hJvRzNQ

— (((Tendar))) (@Tendar) November 22, 2023

Avdiivka:

The battle around Avdiivka has been already far more costly for the Russian army than Vuhledar. But what makes it even worse for them is the usage of cluster ammunition, something what wasn’t available back then. They have a devastating effect on those meat waves.

Source:… pic.twitter.com/lMcNZm7ivC

— (((Tendar))) (@Tendar) November 22, 2023

The battle around Avdiivka has been already far more costly for the Russian army than Vuhledar. But what makes it even worse for them is the usage of cluster ammunition, something what wasn’t available back then. They have a devastating effect on those meat waves.

Source: https://t.me/godsworkfpv/20

#Ukraine #Donetsk #Avdiivka

 

Putin had some thoughts he decided he’d share with the world today:

https://twitter.com/reshetz/status/1727380230199734508

If you are looking for an example of how to fit more lies into less time, bookmark 'Putin Lying to the Face of the G20' pic.twitter.com/hFDepnoh7I

— Maria Avdeeva (@maria_avdv) November 22, 2023

Incomplete list. Doesn’t include treaties with other countries or resolutions we have signed to withdraw from other so-called countries.

Treaties are subject to status, review. not valid in all regions. Restrictions apply. See your local neutral country for more details.

— Darth Putin (@DarthPutinKGB) November 22, 2023

Russia violates:

UN Charter 45
Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty 70
Helsinki Accords 75
Belovezha Accords 91–92
Budapest Memo 94
Black Sea Fleet Treaty 97
Friendship Treaty 98
Treaty on Azov Sea & Kerch Strait ‘03
Karkiv pact ‘10

But Ukraine is “unwilling to engage in talks”.

The European Council on Foreign Relations Gustav Gressel has thoughts on those still trying to push Ukraine into a ceasefire with Russia. First tweet from the thread, the remainder from the Thread Reader App.

1/ I get asked a lot about the possibility of a ceasefire in the 🇷🇺🇺🇦 war. Short answer – it's an illusion.
Long answer in the thread.

— Gustav C. Gressel (@GresselGustav) November 22, 2023

2/ Roughly two “types” of questions popping up:
1⃣ “Now that the counter-offensive failed, should we put pressure on Zelenskyy to negotiate?”THis question implies that 🇺🇦 does not want to negotiate and all we need to do is armwrest them into it. That is nonsense. 

3/ Putin does not want to negotiate, he wants to win the war. He made huge investments, financially and personally in this war. He knows that the war came at huge costs for 🇷🇺 and the prise should be worth it. 
4/ For Putin, the war is not only about 🇺🇦. Conquering it serves as precondition to re-instate 🇷🇺 as a great power, and dominant military power in and over 🇪🇺.
This is the prize worth the effort. The more effort put into it, the harder it is to track back. 
5/ Putin and his entourage have time and again repeated that their war-aims have not changed since Feb 24th 2022. It is all or nothing.
To even start negotiations, 🇷🇺 puts up demands equal to 🇺🇦 surrender as precondition: withdrawal from all “annexed” territory … 
6/ … disbanding the 🇺🇦 armed forces. Note, Moscow does not promise it will stop shooting if Kyiv did so. They demand this before the Kremlin even ponders about whether to talk at all or not.
Of course they don’t expect Kyiv to fulfil their demands, but they don’t care. 

7/ The Kremlin does not want to negotiate anyway.

Ironically, short-cutting military supplies to 🇺🇦 will even further decrease 🇷🇺 appetite for negotiations. Why talk if you win anyway? Why a compromise if in a couple of years it’s all yours? Why settle for less? 

8/ If a 🇺🇦 victory would be closer, the Kremlin would suddenly embrace negotiations to keep as much it controls. But we are very far from that, and thanks to the lack of leadership and courage in the West, we won’t get there in the near future. 
9/ Type 2⃣ question: “But @JoeBiden would really need a result in the war, so he will ask Zelenskyy to accept any ceasfire…”
Why would Putin agree to that? Why should Putin accept 20% of Ukraine, if @realDonaldTrump has a fair chance of winning? He’d get all of Ukraine then. 
10/ Putin is an _______ (insert swearword of choice), but he is not stupid.
He will do nothing that facilitates Bidens re-election. Why should he. And he will not settle for less if more is on the table. 
11/ Russia has ramped up the military-industrial complex to win a war of attrition. They can continue this war into 2027, and working hard to go beyond that.
Europe has not increased its military output beyond some kinds of ammunition and will run out of MBT, IFV, and other .. 
12/ … systems to supply Ukraine by the end of 2024. The US has not accelerated refurbishing stored equiment to the pace needed and is not willing to commit larger ressources to the effort.
The issue of sustaining the Ukrainian Air Force in the fight is still unresolved. 

13/ If nothing changes to the better for 🇺🇦, Putin stands a very good chance winning the war.

Why should he negotiate?

🇪🇺 could still muster the numbers if it wanted to. But you need 2 years lead time on average to increase production, and we wasted almost 2 years already.
So I guess 🇪🇺 does not want to. Prefers to live under the jackboot of fascist Russia instead.

— Gustav C. Gressel (@GresselGustav) November 22, 2023

The Financial Times Editorial Board voices their concern that the US’s and the EU’s support for Ukraine is wavering.

These are nervous times in Kyiv. The counteroffensive that Ukraine had hoped would begin to drive out Russian troops — and convince its allies that they were backing a winner — has not produced the hoped-for breakthrough; Ukraine’s head of the armed forces has called the situation on the ground a “stalemate”, though there have been some signs of progress in recent days. The next multibillion-dollar aid package from its single biggest supporter, the US, is in limbo due to congressional wrangling. The Israel-Hamas conflict is consuming the attention of many western capitals. President Volodymyr Zelenskyy frets that the war in his country has become “like a show” that its allies are tired of watching.

In truth, support for Ukraine remains solid among the top US and European leadership. Jake Sullivan, US national security adviser, denied a report that US and EU officials had quietly begun talking to Kyiv about what potential peace talks with Russia might entail — though he warned of harm to Ukraine’s military prospects unless Congress approved aid soon. A bigger question is how long the top-level commitment can be sustained if, as seems ever more likely, the war becomes protracted. An even more alarming prospect is Donald Trump’s possible return as US president.

In wartime, perception can be as important as reality. There are concrete economic and military steps western allies should take that could help to convince Ukraine of their engagement for the long term. They would also provide a powerful demonstration for Russia’s Vladimir Putin, who may feel for now that the odds have shifted in his favour in his gamble that he can outlast the west.

The EU must quickly find a way to agree its €50bn Ukraine Facility, which entails funding over four years — providing some guarantee of future western help — though a German constitutional court ruling has complicated Brussels’ plans for a budgetary top-up from member states. The bloc should also fast-track plans agreed last month to use billions of euros in earnings generated by frozen Russian assets.

Brussels is now debating a 12th round of sanctions, including a ban on Russian diamond imports. But the EU and US need to do more to close loopholes and tighten existing measures — including the key oil price cap which, as the Financial Times has reported, is being almost entirely circumvented. The EU must clamp down harder on the transfer of strategic technology such as microchips, and spend more on customs enforcement at its borders.

On the military front, allies need to speed up the supply of fighter jets, and training of Ukrainian pilots, to provide vital air cover to ground forces. They need a more systematic approach to the supply of arms — rather than simply donating stocks of surplus and outdated weapons. EU capitals should mobilise investment and cajole arms manufacturers into expanding capacity, by pooling orders and signing them over a longer term. General Valery Zaluzhny, Ukraine’s commander-in-chief of the armed forces, has provided a useful shopping list of the high-tech tools of electronic warfare that Kyiv needs if it is to tip the military balance.

Finally, EU leaders must invite Ukraine to start membership talks, despite troublemaking by Hungary, at a summit next month. EU Council president Charles Michel, on a reassurance mission to Kyiv this week, called this a “fundamental day”. Once the conflict is over, Ukraine has to know it is on a path to be a full part of the “European family”. Until then, Kyiv needs confidence that its allies are ready to provide the help it needs to prevail — or to enter any eventual negotiations with the strongest possible hand.

That’s enough for tonight.

Your daily Patron!

Looking forward to the future with my friend @smelyansky_igor https://t.co/Cj3M4FlnS8

— Patron (@PatronDsns) November 22, 2023

Like everyone else, I know NFTs are a scam. But you do your update with the daily Patron content you have, not the daily Patron content you want.

And a new video from Patron’s official TikTok:

@patron__dsns

Зізнавайтесь, хто вже чекає Новий Рік і ялинку?🤭🎄

♬ som original – mii ⸆⸉

Machine translation of the caption:

Admit it, who is already waiting for the New Year and the Christmas tree? 🤭🎄

Open thread!

War for Ukraine Day 637: The Second Winter Campaign of Ukraine’s Defense Against Russia’s Genocidal Re-invasion Has BegunPost + Comments (25)

Wednesday Evening Open Thread: Give Thanks Where Due

by Anne Laurie|  November 22, 20236:38 pm| 205 Comments

This post is in: Food, Open Threads, Show Us on the Doll Where the Invisible Hand Touched You

Last 24 hours. 🇺🇸 #HappyThanksgiving 🦃 pic.twitter.com/eW0lNWeSFz

— Carl Quintanilla (@carlquintanilla) November 22, 2023

So we’ll have more energy to argue about the *really* important issues of the day…

Turkey rules the table. But an AP-NORC poll finds disagreement over other Thanksgiving classics https://t.co/0Di0oE4d4s

— The Associated Press (@AP) November 21, 2023

Thanksgiving may be a time for Americans to come together, but opinion is divided over what’s on the crowded dinner table. We mostly agree on the deliciousness of pumpkin pie, say, but are split over the eternal turkey question of dark meat versus white meat.

And don’t even ask if marshmallows belong on sweet potatoes — it could cause a ruckus.

THE BIRD
About 3 in 10 U.S. adults (32%) who will celebrate Thanksgiving this year say turkey is their favorite dish in the holiday feast, according to a new poll from The Associated Press-NORC Center for Public Affairs Research.

Stuffing or dressing (19%) and mashed potatoes (6%) come in second and third.

“Thanksgiving — it’s about turkey,” said Ralph Caya, 71, from Pensacola, Florida, who participated in the survey…

Although turkey is tops across U.S. regions and ages, there’s a slight generational divide. Americans 45 or older are especially likely to call turkey the best thing on the Thanksgiving table (39%), while younger adults who agree come in at 24%…

My minority opinion: The poultry lump is overrated, except as a centerpiece on the table. I’ll fill up on the delicious sides, thank you, or order a nice ham as an alternative.
 
And then, of course, there’s this…

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Wednesday Evening Open Thread:  Give Thanks Where Due

(Clay Bennett via GoComics.com)

Wednesday Evening Open Thread: Give Thanks Where DuePost + Comments (205)

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