It is very, very exciting that Prince's greatest film, and the greatest concert film of all time, is coming to Imax for the first time! www.imax.com/movie/imax-p…
— Anil Dash (@anildash.com) July 22, 2025 at 4:01 PM
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The RFS Community space is only a week old and already more than 1,000 people are chatting away & getting started on their campaign prep. It’s just so cool to see the work working.
— Amanda Litman (@amandalitman.bsky.social) July 22, 2025 at 8:15 PM
===
Even the FTFNYTimes…
We've updated this file with the final estimates from the Congressional Budget Office:
www.nytimes.com/interactive/…— The Upshot (@upshot.nytimes.com) July 22, 2025 at 3:56 PM
===
Tell your Senators and Rep they need to support this bill on unmasking ICE and displaying clear ID here: actionnetwork.org/letters/tell…
— Scott Dworkin (@dworkin.bsky.social) July 22, 2025 at 6:09 PM
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We won’t let Republicans get away with hiding the Epstein files.
— Democrats (@democrats.org) July 22, 2025 at 4:33 PM
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On The Road – arrieve – Antarctica Part 1
Suzanne
I have been very happy to see the Dems continuing to press on the Epstein stuff for the last couple of weeks. Is it partially gamesmanship? Sure. But that stuff would have fallen by the wayside long ago if it didn’t have any effect.
So: Love it, carry on!
Baud
Maybe I’m just like my father, too old.
NotMax
Brings new meaning to the phrase “grow your own.”
;)
Baud
One bit of good news is that Trump is polling poorly even though the stock market is up and the good economy he inherited hasn’t crashed yet.
cain
@Baud: Maybe you’re just like your mother.
Baud
Anti-DEI = pro-bigotry
Baud
@cain:
It’s true! I’m never satisfied!
rikyrah
Good Morning, Everyone😊😊😊
Professor Bigfoot
@Baud: But why do we scream at each other?
rikyrah
@Baud:
That has been obvious for awhile😠😠
Baud
@rikyrah:
Good morning.
Baud
@Professor Bigfoot:
We know what we did (to make doves cry).
Professor Bigfoot
@Baud:
@cain:
@Baud:
If one MUST fall victim to an earworm, this is a fine one to suffer. ;)
New Deal democrat
Since it is Wednesday morning, here is the latest on Covid and measles.
As to Covid, the good news continues. We are now down to 34,800 deaths in the past 52 weeks, yet another new record low. In the last full reporting week of June 21, there were 168 deaths, slightly above the record low of 152 deaths the week before. In the week of July 12, preliminarily there were only 63 deaths, only 5 above the record preliminary low in mid-June.
Because last year at this point there were over 500 weekly deaths and rising fast, we are almost certainly going to continue to set new record 52 week lows in the weeks ahead.
Wastewater analysis finally shows the usual summer increase, but at low levels. As of July 12, there were 2.15 particles per mL, up from 1.63 several weeks before, but well below the 6.51 (and rising fast) of one year ago. The upturn was more pronounced in the South and West, with only small increases in the Northest and Midwest. The independent analysis from Biobot through July 5 shows similar data.
Measles continues to slowly perk along, with 21 new confirmed cases in the past week, bringing the total to 1309 so far this year. 40 jurisdictions have reported cases. 92% of all cases were among the unvaccinated. 13% required hospitalization. Cases continue to break down roughly as 1/3rd each among the under 5 age group, older children and teenagers, and adults. Hospitalizations were more often required among the youngest children.
On the one hand, it is somewhat surprising that there has not been a much larger outbreak, now that many States have vaccination levels below that required for “herd immunity.” On the other hand, this outbreak has continued for over half a year, suggesting that measles has established a “permanent” foothold among the unvaccinated population. All completely unnecessary.
Geminid
@Suzanne: Pounding Trump and the Republicans on the Epstein Files clearly is good politics. “WHAT DO THEY HAVE TO HIDE?!!” can be a very potent line of attack.
Meanwhile, there’s plenty of dirt on the Trump/Epstein relationship that’s been lying in plain sight for decades– photos, interviews, anecdotes etc. This is finally being reviewed and propagated by numerous journalists and publications. The information in total could be the equivalent of several “Epstein Files,” and now many people are seeing it for the first time or in a new light.
And new sources are stepping forward now to tell their side of a story that has taken on a life of its own. So yeah, Congressional Democrats are doing well on their part to keep this ball rolling.
They haven’t been nearly as effective as Trump though. That guy’s been his own worst enemy throughout this controversy. Trump has managed to turn the Kennedy family maxim, “Never Complain, Never Explain,” on its head. What an idiot!
Baud
You don’t say.
catclub
is the trade agreement with Japan a Treaty? And do Treaties need to be approved by Congress?
And doesn’t the Legislature set taxes and tariffs?
catclub
@Baud: so if the Dept of Education goes out of business those loans will not be collected, right?
Betty
@Geminid: The latest new piece I saw was an interview with Jeffrey Epstein’s brother, Mark, explaining how Trump would set up his friends in order to sleep with their wives. It includes audio of Jeffrey explaining the scheme. Diabolical.
Baud
The national sales tax plan is coming together.
Scout211
This also too:
Baud
@catclub:
Wrong.
zhena gogolia
@Betty: He talks about that on the Access Hollywood tape.
RevRick
@Geminid: They’re hiding stuff = they cannot be trusted. And this notion affects everything they do and say.
They claim it’s a Big, Beautiful Bill, and people begin to think it’s a Big, Ugly Abomination. They claim that the economy is doing great, and people focus on the crappy news. They claim they’re deporting “illegals”, and people notice all the ugly tactics and cruelty directed at people just trying to live their lives.
Hiding stuff becomes the lens through which voters see everything that Trump and his GOP lapdogs are doing.
The Epstein files have taken on a far greater significance than Trump’s ugly personal crimes.
Baud
@Baud:
Media fluffing of Trump makes the same point. Click through to see screenshot.
JML
@catclub: I’m sure they’ll reinvigorate the loan servicing industry and hand out a massive no-bid contract to someone closely connected to the Trump Crime Family.
Gotta make sure to keep the plebes down.
Geo Wilcox
@Scout211: My brain feels like it has aged more due to Trump’s reelection than COVID.
Baud
Spanky
@JML: ICE becomes a debt collection agency. Gotta spend all that new funding somehow.
Suzanne
@Geminid:
I always thought that was the royal family’s maxim, but the point is the same.
FFOTUS has never been able to keep his mouth shut, and that’s been an element of his success so far. It gives him the aura of “authenticity”, even though it’s really just his brain barf. It’s smart politics to turn that strength into a weakness. Good going, Dems.
Scout211
Trump is losing by winning? WTAF?
I guess public opinion polls are now subject to skewing by intrepid reporters who know better.
Spanky
Why are these people still basing financial decisions on what comes out of his mouth? These are the same people who invented TACO.
New Deal democrat
@Scout211: Interesting.
it sounds like lack of social stimulation is the main culprit:
That teenage girls suffered particularly acutely is the “tell,” I think.
Dorothy A. Winsor
@RevRick: Hey, Rev, weren’t you the one whose household was having health problems? How are you and Mrs Rev doing?
Spanky
@New Deal democrat: Sort of tracks with studies of aging. Elderly people with little or no social contacts are more prone to dementia, and at an earlier age.
And what does this portend for all those home schooled kids?
Princess
@Betty: There were stories about Trump sleeping with his friends’ wives in 2016. No one cared.
Id like to know why Trump and Epstein fell out. I don’t believe it was just competition over property. And after that, they must have had so much dirt on each other, each could have buried the other one. I guess that’s what kept them both silent. And now Epstein is dead. Very convenient for Trump.
sab
@New Deal democrat: Thank you for doing these.
Suzanne
@New Deal democrat: My kids had mixed experiences. Spawn the Elder, who has bipolar disorder, did much better than I expected during the pandemic. He did better not having to be “front-facing” as much. Spawn the Younger, OTOH, started having panic attacks and was having a really hard time with being lonely. Being out of school was just terrible for her.
Chief Oshkosh
@Spanky: The stock market hasn’t been tethered to reality in decades. The whole thing, on a good day, is just vibes and bullshit. However, it seems to work just enough to keep just enough people just complacent enough to not go all French Revolution on the MOTU.
UncleEbeneezer
@Baud: Thank you! There are legit criticisms of DEI programs, especially in the way they often overlook (or even uphold) antisemitism and fail to include Jews in the list of marginalized groups subject to routine discrimination, gaslighting etc. But that’s really just shows DEI programs need to be expanded/improved, not destroyed. Being against the concept as a whole is as pro-bigotry as it gets and is a huge red flag.
Spanky
Uh oh. Might be time to consider your mattress as a cash repository.
Can’t wait to hear about the “refined” new banking rules.
UncleEbeneezer
@Baud: Thanks Biden…
New Deal democrat
This is from the YouGov poll highlighted yesterday. It’s both good news and bad news:
Trump Approval – Hispanics: February 7, 2025:
🔴 Disapprove: 51%
🟢 Approve: 49%
July 18, 2025:
🔴 Disapprove: 68%
🟢 Approve: 32%
The good news is that Hispanics now overwhelming disapprove of T—-p. The bad news it WTF were they thinking?!?! on Election Day.
The breakout I’d most like to see is White women. Iirc, they voted slightly in favor of T—-p.
FWIW, T—-p brings out thousands of people from the woodwork who *only* vote for him. Given the unpopularity of his actual policies, and the bad consequences that will continue to be felt and amplified over the next 15 months, the midterms are setting up to be a slaughter.
Baud
@New Deal democrat:
The same thing the white working class has been thinking for 50 years.
Spanky
Happy news from over at Wired:
Soprano2
@Baud: Some of them need to sue, this is not a policy it’s a law passed by Congress.
Baud
Baud
Soprano2
@Baud: Wow, what a bullshit take. Fox News doesn’t suck his dick that hard. I didn’t know Axios was a hard right publication.
Baud
Soprano2
@Spanky: That’s why I get my husband out and about going places and doing things as much as possible. I figure even if he doesn’t talk to people much, they talk to him and the stimulation is good for his brain.
lowtechcyclist
@New Deal democrat:
That they counted as white, and it was just some other class of Hispanics that Trump wanted to deport.
At least that would be my assumption.
ETA: “Your comment is awaiting moderation.” Interesting. FWIW, my last non-moderated comment was at 8:05 a.m. in the tech billionaire thread. I’m posting from the same laptop, so I’m kinda puzzled.
Maybe it’s the fault of those tech billionaires. They didn’t like being called ‘valley of the dolts.’ ;-)
ETA2: Maybe a board-wide glitch? I’m not seeing any other new comments since this one went to moderation.
Soprano2
@Spanky: This seems to be a “rinse/repeat” kind of thing. A really bad thing happens, so we put laws in place to prevent the things that made the really bad thing happen. Time goes past, people’s memories of the bad thing fade, we say “Why do we have all these onerous rules, can’t we get rid of them?”. This happens over and over again in various areas. Sometimes the rules are scrapped, sometimes they’re saved, but it seems to me that this is human nature.
Suzanne
@New Deal democrat:
This definitely makes me optimistic. I just hope we don’t fool ourselves into thinking that people are smart enough to connect those terrible consequences to their choices in the voting booth. We still need to engage with all the tools of politics.
Soprano2
I heard interviews with some of these people. Evidently they were angry that new asylum seekers were getting help when their relative who had been here for many years trying to get help to become legal couldn’t get any. They were also concerned about high prices, etc. Some of them actually said they weren’t worried about FFOTUS deporting their relatives, because they were “good people who work and pay taxes”. I really wonder how much of this was true and how much was reluctance to vote for a black woman.
Soprano2
Some of my comments say they are awaiting moderation, and my nym looks the same. Strange.
RevRick
@Dorothy A. Winsor: Thank you for asking.
My Frankenthumb is healing, but still looks awful. I go back to the hand surgeon on the first.
Meanwhile, MrsRev saw the urologist, who expressed little concern, but scheduled a CT scan just to be sure. She sees the spine doctor on the 6th about her stenosis.
We so need the river cruise up the Danube in September.
catclub
and so is your opinion.
Betting against the US economy has been a bad bet for the last 90+ years or so. The only ‘better’ investment the last 20 years or so has been crypto.
New Deal democrat
@Spanky:
@Chief Oshkosh:
On a day to day basis, the stock market is a casino. On a long term basis, it is closely tied to corporate earnings. When you look at 4 week, or 13 week moving averages that take out most of the noise, it does have value in forecasting the near term economy.
And during 2023-24, the market rose as much as 40% YoY. But there was a clear inflection point in the trend – right before Election Day. Since then the market has risen at a much more subdued pace, on the order of 10% or less.
The increase in the past few weeks has been driven in part by the continued TACO trade, and partly by the belief that the Big Billionaire Bust-out Bill will increase corporate profits.
If the TACO trade fails, and this time the tariffs really do take effect, I would expect a significant pullback. Anecdotally, without announcing it, so as to avoid retaliation by The Orange One, a number of big retailers have recently engaged in significant price hikes. So we’ll see.
Soprano2
Testing on phone.
prostratedragon
Nightmare:
Poster found an AI quote attributed to her that not only was something she did not say, but was wrong in unprofessional ways.
catclub
@Suzanne: I was intrigued by the recent report from dentists. apparently teeth grinding has gone up in the past few years.
I think they attribute it to stress.
The Audacity of Krope
The lies and the hiding spaces were already known, some voters needed a messenger they could trust. In this case that seems merely to have been their own priors and the conspiracy worm in their ear
Baud
@Soprano2:
Me too. Hence the blank comments above.
Suzanne
@Soprano2: Mine did, too.
Baud
@Soprano2:
I’m having the same problem.
stinger
@lowtechcyclist: I got the “awaiting moderation” tag added to my second comment on the On the Road post. I assume glitch.
ETA: And also on this comment!
lowtechcyclist
@Soprano2:
Well, it wasn’t just me! Looks like Baud was also having some issues.
After my comment #52 went to moderation, I didn’t see new comments from anyone else for nearly 15 minutes. Looks like that’s happening to me again: the last comment I see is at 8:57 EDT, and it’s now 9:13.
Another Scott
@Baud: So, of course, Kevin highlights it.
Angry clicks are still clicks.
Doesn’t anybody here know how to play this game??!
[ sigh ]
Best wishes,
Scott.
Another Scott
Is K e v i n a dungeon word now?? I got thrown in the dungeon for a very simple comment.
Best wishes,
Scott.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@New Deal democrat:
one study doesn’t make a scientific consensus
How do they know this isn’t an effect of COVID? Teens are much less likely to show systems and get tested for COVID than adults. The article mentions no attempt to sperate those in the study who were infected than those who weren’t.
And above all, NBC’s Narrative is the Lockdown was bad. If you all have noticed teenage girls are the favorite victim of the MSM because they get the strongest emotional responds from the audience.
eclare
OMG I am a child of the 80’s, I saw Sign O the Times when it was released, can’t wait to see it in Imax.
Soprano2
@RevRick: You will have a great time! The river cruise we went on in 2015 was fantastic.
The Audacity of Krope
@Another Scott: No, I think the site is goofing today.
Jeffro
Yes – unfortunately true.
When things go to shit, whether slowly or quickly, the MAGA GOP will just fire up the noise machine and blame the Dems 24/7. It’ll get them to the low 40%s, so we have to be equally relentless (especially in this exciting, new, post-truth/facts world)
catclub
@Another Scott: you know what you did.
Shakti
@New Deal democrat:
-Most of the poll respondents were Cuban or Bukele lovers.
-White women gain more by affiliation with white men than they lose, especially in relative status.
I stopped calling myself a feminist about a decade ago because I don’t believe it accurately describes any political group whose actions you can measure in a poll. White women do not have solidarity with other women, not even themselves really. I know readers here don’t feel that way, and get defensive about it, but look at where we are now. @New Deal democrat:
RevRick
@The Audacity of Krope: Many Democrats knew that the Bush 2 administration was lying about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. But when that proved to be a lie following the invasion, it colored everything that his administration said and did afterwards. It was why Pelosi was able to say to Bush’s attempt privatize Social Security, “I say nothing. I give you nothing.”
catclub
agreed, with the proviso that the stock market can stay crazy longer than you stay solvent betting against it.
Baud
Test
ETA: the comment moderation issue may be resolved.
Doug R
Found a livestream of the Stephanie Miller show:
youtube.com/watch?v=s7RsUx9igf0
UncleEbeneezer
@RevRick: People don’t care about policy. They say they do but the clicks don’t lie. So the Epstein stuff (which is odious but exponentially less significant than the Big Bullshit Bill, SCOTUS, weaponization of DOJ etc.) gets all the attention. I wish the electorate prioritized better but they love the salacious stuff.
Dorothy A. Winsor
@RevRick: Sounds like things are looking up. The river cruise sounds lovely!
Jeffro
btw VA peeps: good news! ol’ Winsome is “shaking up” her campaign
but the headline says it all: Republicans Make a Last Gasp in Virginia
LOL
it’ll be interesting to see just how much dough the VA MAGA GOP is willing to burn in the hopes of keeping this from being a referendum on trumpov…
The Hill has a similar report: VA Rs sound the alarm over Gov’s race
au contraire good sir – not EVERYONE =)
GOOD!
Miyares is a trumpie scumbag and it’d be great if this crushes his political ambitions going forward. We certainly could use an AG who’s ready to stand up for Virginia.
Betty
@Princess: What’s new to me is the craven way he was was able to get the wives to sleep with him.
Soprano2
I’m listening to the rest of the Hunter Biden interview. It’s long, but I highly recommend that everyone listen to it. He sounds so much like his dad it’s eerie.
Betty
@Spanky: Elizabeth Warren will be on this. She is very concerned about another crisis in banking. Add in the crypto stuff, and it does seem worrisome.
Scout211
@Soprano2: speaking of that interview, there’s an opinion piece (that I won’t link here) on The Daily Beast this morning by Chris Cilliza entitled, Hunter Biden Really Needs to Shut It.
LOL. Poor Chris. He really must be needing attention right now.
zhena gogolia
@Shakti:
This white woman agrees totally. This election really, really opened my eyes to this. After Dobbs, you vote for Trump? Really?
Jackie
@Baud:
@Baud:
@Baud:
Are we playing the “guess what I’m thinking?” game?
zhena gogolia
@Soprano2: I’ve listened to 2 hours of it and will finish tonight. I really am enjoying it. Of course I wish he hadn’t screwed up, but he has a lot of interesting things to say.
Baud
@Scout211:
I’m so old I remember when everyone was mad at Chelsea Clinton.
Chris Cilliza is probably trying to recreate that energy.
Betty
@Soprano2: Based on my limited experience, both racism and sexism factored into the Hispanic vote. Not that the other factors weren’t also present.
Booger
@Jeffro: Saw a whole lotta Winsome signs yesterday on 29 between Charlottesville and RappCo. Can’t wait for the headlines “Winsome, lose some” come November.
The Audacity of Krope
@Jackie: He invited Marcel Marceau to use his account for the day.
zhena gogolia
Love the protest sign today.
The Audacity of Krope
@zhena gogolia: Side note, the shit in the box could also do a better job running this country.
Booger
@The Audacity of Krope: That’s great–a mime is a terrible thing to waste.
The Audacity of Krope
@Booger: I’m beginning to understand the beauty of “the art of silence.”
Scout211
Agree on both points.
RevRick
@UncleEbeneezer: I wouldn’t say that they don’t care about policy so much as they don’t understand it and their eyes glaze over when it’s discussed. It’s why parties speak in slogans that catch attention.
Deputinize America
@Suzanne:
I won’t lie – it affected my habits in a negative way, brought about some depressive aspects which still afflict me today. Put me online way too much.
eclare
@Scout211:
Yep. Agreed.
Jeffro
@Booger: the handful I’ve seen are, um, masterful in their own way…I want Winsome’s photographer to do my next professional headshot!
me: “take 40 years off and make me look much saner than I am IRL”
photog: “can do!”
Baud
Baud
schrodingers_cat
@Shakti: @zhena gogolia: #notallwhitewomen brigade will be here shortly to tell you how you are wrong.
Geminid
@Scout211: I saw Nate Silver similarly dismiss Hunter Biden and his interview. Hunter Biden is not a member of Cilliza’s and Silver’s club– the club of “knowing,” white male professional pundits; like the Pod Save America guys.
But why are their opinions any more valuable than Hunter Biden’s? He’s every bit as intelligent and he has seen what they have seen, just from a different angle.
p.a.
I wasn’t getting “moderation”, I was getting “unable to link to page” for abt 1/2 hour.
Good news about the bankrule revision, just like tRump weakening fiduciary rules, both so consumers can have more options
//sssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss
Baud
@Geminid:
Or anyone else who offers an opinion in our social media world.
The Audacity of Krope
Silver and Cilizza’s opinions flatter rich elites and promote their interests.
catclub
@p.a.: The bank rule revision is not necessarily a bad thing. Risk does not disappear, it moves where it is less regulated. So risk has moved from the regulated banks to…. somewhere else we don’t know as much about.
Moving some of the risk back to the banks, but in some sort of regulated fashion…. could be an improvement in overall risk of catastrophe.
Jackie
@The Audacity of Krope: HA!
Peale
@Spanky: I mean, if its any positive, we went through two major shocks since 2008 with very few “scandals” and the collapse of major banks outside of SVB. So of course its time to supercharge that situation.
And given our current enviornment, at least they aren’t talking about ending DEI in banking by bringing back redlining. Yet. They’ll get there. But not yet.
Josie
@Scout211: I agree also. The other grandmother is an intelligent, well read white woman who considers herself a Christian. She votes straight Republican and quotes the usual crap from Fox, etc. on Facebook. I suspect racism is probably at the bottom of her reasons, and that maybe she doesn’t even realize that.
ETA: By the way, I think Hunter knocked it out of the park.
schrodingers_cat
@Josie: A lot of prejudice is subconscious. That’s what causes a defensive reaction. Because many people have defined prejudice/ bigotry to apply to only the extreme cases.
In its day wasn’t the KKK pretty mainstream. Racism was invented as an intellectual cover to justify colonial conquest.
The so called white man’s burden is a good example. I am pretty sure Kipling didn’t think of himself as a racist.
Miss Bianca
@Josie: Where is the whole Hunter interview posted? I’m sure someone else has posted that info somewhere, but I missed it if so.
Belafon
@Scout211: Meaning that Hunter needs more air time.
Matt McIrvin
I finally saw the new Superman movie– it was a lot of fun! More like a crazy comic book transferred directly to the screen than most movies inspired by comic books.
If you don’t like superheroes, yeah, don’t go. But if you thought Superman was boring and dumb based on every theatrical movie that’s been made about him after Christopher Reeve left the role, well, this one’s different. Also, best Lois Lane ever.
mali muso
@Miss Bianca: I’ve got it playing on Youtube in the background now. About halfway through it. He’s very intelligent and speaks eloquently about a lot of topics…currently, the white terrorist reactions to reconstruction and how it mirrors what is going on today.
Link to Youtube.
New Deal democrat
@Peale:
@Spanky:
This is another example of Hyman Minsky’s theory of human behavior, i.e., stability causes instability.
The more stable and successful a policy is, the more people think it is invulnerable. And especially where the result of successful policy is that “nothing” happens (e.g., measles vaccinations), the more people with no living memory of the problem believe the restriction is unnecessary. And so the evil returns, often catastrophically.
As the Depression and WW2 fade deeper into historical memory, we are seeing the rules that prevented repeat conflagrations being dismantled.
Suzanne
@Betty: I think shortages and high prices of things inflames a lot of the bigotry that is out there in the world. It’s illogical — basically crabs in a bucket at societal scale — but I have observed it many, many times.
The impulse to be angry at asylum seekers for not “waiting in line like I had to”, or hostility to immigrants because one is struggling to pay the rent and there’s not enough houses (legitimately what the MAGAts believe)….. these are terrible reactions to legitimate problems. The line is too long, the rent is too high. We can’t end the bigotry directly by solving those problems, but solving those problems (and others) is the work of good government. And I do believe that people have more room in their hearts for positive change when they are under less stress.
lowtechcyclist
@Scout211:
Speaking of people I can’t remember when I last took seriously.
Josie
@Miss Bianca: https://balloon-juice.com/2025/07/22/late-night-open-thread-hunter-biden-anger-translator/Scroll down to the bottom of this post.
ETA: Oops, too slow.
Suzanne
@lowtechcyclist: I normally try to read or listen to most of the professional opinion-havers, but I just can’t with Cilizza. He’s not even wrong/interesting. His hot takes are like ranch dressing.
Shakti
@Scout211: @schrodingers_cat: @zhena gogolia:
It was seeing white women vote for Trump who has to be the nastiest, most mediocre nepobaby failson over Clinton who is presumably as close to one of their own as we’ve ever seen on a major party ticket.
Like if group solidarity as a woman was going to kick in, it would’ve then.
And it wasn’t even plausibly hidden hostility from this man or not even plausible he’d be good at the job — just norm breaking left and right of the good norms.
Not only did white women vote for Trump once, they voted for him three fucking times in a row. Now White women as a group have only ever voted for the Democrats twice – (Bill Clinton and Lyndon Johnson) since 1952, but this is so absurdly blatant, it makes no sense to assume they’d think they’d have interests as women that mean anything to them. At all.
Spanky
@Baud: Comments come in, comments go out. No one can explain it
Scout211
Wow. Momentary “word press critical error.” And then “word press fatal error.”
Baud, what did you do? ;-)
Thank you WaterGirl or any other FPer who fixed the blog just now. I guess it really wasn’t fatal.
ETA: or was it?
Spanky
Chris Cilliza? The Mad Bitch Beer guy? Yeah, sure. Totally worth listening to his opinion.
Anyway
@Suzanne: He’s [Cilizza] a troll. Not worth reading.
ETA
Steve LaBonne
@Suzanne: Ranch dressing a decade or two past its sell-by date.
Jeffro
It was a fun movie, definitely. LOVED seeing Metamorpho and Mr. Terrific (two long-time faves) in there too!
Suzanne
@Steve LaBonne: I have never understood ranch dressing. Blue cheese is right there!
Soprano2
@Scout211: I agree too. My mother and I had differences on a lot of political things. She thought women who voted for Democrats were mostly dumb and voted based on emotions, not facts. LOL I told her everyone votes on emotions, not facts, but she was convinced she was a totally rational person who always voted on the facts. She also was one of those women who thought if young women would just keep their legs shut we wouldn’t have a need for abortion. There are lots and lots of women like that.
Scout211
Lemme ‘splain.
It’s a salad dressing and a dipping sauce and a cooking ingredient and also too, a dessert topping and floor wax!
Belafon
@catclub: Is my money where it is less regulated?
Soprano2
@Geminid: People way underestimate Hunter Biden. The only things most people know about him are that he’s Joe Biden’s son and he was an addict. I would bet most people don’t know he was a lawyer, or that he graduated from Yale Law School, or that he was accomplished in his own right for a long time. They think all addicts are like their n’er-do-well cousin who could never get an education or hold down a job, so they think Hunter is like that too. I wonder if they even listened to any of that interview that the could write it off so easily.
Ben Cisco
Cilizza can go eat a bag.
UNSALTED, b/c salt is for closers.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
So, to get the white vote back we need find candidates who are guys mom warned you about. Lovely.
Suzanne
@Scout211: Ranch dressing is definitely a floor wax.
JML
@Soprano2: It’s easy to peg Hunter Biden as the family fuckup, especially in the context of his brother Beau, who was a rising political star and seemed to have it all together as a veteran, attorney, political office holder, family man, and heir apparent to the Biden political legacy. When a star shines so brightly, it’s easy to assume that others are lesser, and when you throw in how badly his life collapsed as he was consumed by addiction with much public embarrassment, it gets even easier to write him off and slap a label on him.
Truth is, we don’t really know much about Hunter Biden, other than the bad stuff from the last few years.
Melancholy Jaques
@Baud:
My take is and has been that they were thinking that a woman should not be president.
Miss Bianca
@mali muso: thank you!
lashonharangue
@New Deal democrat:
I have long believed that much of the really bad stuff that happens is because cause and effect is separated by time and distance.
rikyrah
@Baud:
Just phucking evil 😡
mali muso
@Miss Bianca: You’re quite welcome! Hope it wasn’t me who broke the thread. lol
Melancholy Jaques
@Shakti:
Every time I point this out, I get personal attacks & told I just don’t understand. I admit I don’t understand, but I know what I see election after election. Women do not vote as a block on issues that are commonly considered women’s issues: abortion, equal employment & education, women’s health, etc. The majority of white women vote white male.
Eolirin
@Baud: They’ll eventually be turned on the unhoused as well, someone will need to go into all of the prisons they’re building, and policy is slanting to push all of us with more with more significant disabilities that aren’t from rich families into a place where we cannot survive independently, which will push us into the streets. SCOTUS has already okayed criminalizing being unhoused, so there won’t be much standing in their way.
Eolirin
@Melancholy Jaques: It’s the barest majority, and it wouldn’t even matter if white men didn’t break 60/40 or worse for Republicans.
It’d be really nice if white women voted for Democrats the way white men vote for Republicans, and it’d end the GOP if they did, but white men are still the problem by a very large degree
Not to mention if the white men numbers were lower the white women numbers would probably be better for us
Soprano2
@Suzanne: I love ranch dressing but thing blue cheese is only so-so. There is a difference. You’d be surprised how many people like to dip their French fries in ranch dressing.
zhena gogolia
@Eolirin: The fact remains that white women could have stopped him in 2016 or especially in 2025. They didn’t.
ETA: We didn’t. (although I tried)
Suzanne
@Soprano2: I worked at McDonald’s for a while. I have definitely witnessed the French-fries-in-ranch phenomenon.
I love blue cheese. Gorgonzola, Roquefort, Stilton….. fantastic. Ranch dressing feels bland and goopy in comparison!
Eolirin
@zhena gogolia: So could have white men. The margins were so close a bunch of other groups could have stopped him too. But without that lock on the the white male vote, the Republicans would not be able to win ever under any circumstances.
I’d rather not victim blame here. White men are the core of the Republican voting electorate, they’re the ones primarily responsible for everything that’s gone wrong in this country since it’s inception. All blame should fall on them.
Omnes Omnibus
@Eolirin: Are we blamestorming or are we looking for people who voted the GOP last time but are persuadable?
zhena gogolia
@Eolirin: It’s in men’s interests to vote for the male supremacist. It’s not in women’s interests. Why do they do it?
And as my father always said, “If you’re rich, you should vote Republican. Everyone else should vote for Democrats.” But that’s a different issue.
zhena gogolia
@Eolirin: I don’t think “all blame” is correct. I am deeply bitter about the white woman vote in 2016 and 2024.
lowtechcyclist
@Ben Cisco:
Does ‘closer’ have some new meaning that I’ve missed? I’ve seen it here a couple times used in this sort of manner.
lowtechcyclist
@Melancholy Jaques:
Yeah, that’s where I’ve been. Her skin tone didn’t help either, but we’re 2 for 3 with Black candidates for President, and 0 for 2 with women. Small sample size and all that, but we’re kinda stuck with that.
Harrison Wesley
@lowtechcyclist: I’m pretty sure it’s a takeoff on a line from Glengarry Glen Ross
Eolirin
@Omnes Omnibus: It didn’t feel like the conversation was about how to persuade women to vote differently to me. I don’t say what I said if we’re trying to talk about productive voter outreach. And also, a lot of those white women are not gettable.
@zhena gogolia: It is though. White women are protected and benefit from the association with white male supremacy relative to other groups. And in some cases individually from direct abuse. We know the dynamic of a husband coercing their wife’s voting exists for instance. How large an effect that is, idk, but in really close elections it doesn’t need to be very large.
zhena gogolia
@lowtechcyclist: I’ve never seen it, but I understand it’s a phrase from David Mamet’s Glengarry Glen Ross, in which there are a bunch of salesmen and they’re told by their manager that they can’t have coffee unless they close a deal because “coffee’s for closers.”
lowtechcyclist
@zhena gogolia:
The vast majority of women live in a long-term relationship with a man, and most of the rest want to. It’s not surprising that people who live together have compatible values; it’s hard to stay together for long if you don’t. And politics is more a matter of fundamental value systems than it’s previously been in my lifetime. What’s surprising isn’t that a majority of white women still vote Republican, it’s that the gender gap is as large as it is.
And why don’t men’s views get changed by women’s views, rather than the other way around? Because most men take each other’s opinions way more seriously than they take those of women, even those they live with. Sigh.
Captain C
@Scout211: Chris should take his own advice. Preferably by finding another career.
Suzanne
@lowtechcyclist: I will echo what you said, and I’m loath to talk about this subject because I think it’s been beat to death….. but it is a failure of cognitive empathy to forget that many women — especially older women — have framed their lives around patriarchy (internalized misogyny) and it would not serve their interests to tear it down.
If men get a pass on voting for Republicans because it serves their interests….. what does a 60-year-old woman who stayed at home raising her kids her whole life have to gain from voting for Democrats? Her interests are unquestionably tied to her husband’s.
And why should we expect solidarity from women and not men? (Hint: internalized misogyny again.) And — I will note — men aren’t just men, they have other aspects of identity. White working-class men voted for FFOTUS in significant quantity. That’s the dumbest shit ever. We expect selfless voting behavior from women and tolerate self-interested voting behavior from men. That’s a double standard based in expectations that women are required to show more care and self-sacrifice.
Anyway
@Omnes Omnibus: always had a whiff of finger pointing to me …
UncleEbeneezer
@Soprano2:
@zhena gogolia:
I just listened to the part where he calls out the fact that after the terrible debate Biden gave multiple speeches and interviews where he performed great. The CBC/NAACP had his back, literally chanting “Joe don’t go!” But White Dems/Progressives just doubled down on pushing him out. The same Dems/Progressives who were saying “listen to Black People” during the George Floyd protests.
MoCaAce
God I fucking hate talking to my Brother In Law!
@Suzanne:
Shakti
@Eolirin:
Why would you say someone is “primarily responsible” but “all blame” should fall on them? I thought you objected to winner take all blame and wanted more proportional blame instead. Ergo, everyone loves pointing at the splits even though in our system the fact the election was close means absolutely fuckall to the amount, breadth and speed of horrible changes that are happening.
It is hard to see a group as a victim of policies they affirmatively voted for time and time again, who are as a group, t the 2nd least voter suppressed group in this country, and who outnumber the more voter suppressed groups, and those who could not vote against it.
Voting is an act of agency. It’s condescending to deny that they have agency because it makes everyone uncomfortable to admit how they’ve used it.
They voted actively time and time to disenfranchise people who would vote against these policies they are “victims” of, in large part because the people so disenfranchised, so voter suppressed, are hurt more by these policies.
They consistently enabled the policies.
This isn’t subtle or hidden or the result of deception. It’s clear, it’s blatant.
Shakti
@Suzanne: Why this pisses me off.
Women who consistently vote for the harmful policies (as a group) will try to call on this solidarity when they are in the shit, that they so disdain at other times. For example as outlier cases: anti abortionists who rely on clinic anonymity while they go dox everyone on sight; white supremacists’ ex wives who want gofundmes for their new lives but there’s no real reason they would hate anything else their exes did etc.
They expect others they oppress or whose oppression they enable to drop everything and rescue them. Prioritize them in their increasingly limited resources. I’m sorry. Solidarity goes both ways.
evodevo
@Spanky: Yep…that’s what got us into the 2008 mess in the first place, starting with the Commodities Future Act in 2000 and the dismantling of the firewall between banks’ investment and deposit divisions in 1999. And conservatives have been jonesing to get back there for many years now. If they accomplish that, coupled with the economic implosion from tariff taxes, you ain’t seen nuttin’ yet.
I fully expect the Trumpists to push nonsense like crypto deregulation into the banking system, and that will be the end.
schrodingers_cat
@Shakti: Agreed and reading the comment that implied white women voting for Dems is altruism made my jaw drop on the floor. Since when is self interest considered altruism?
We can have hundred think pieces on how black men and Latino men voted but holding the biggest demographic that consistently votes R accountable and has voted for the current incumbent three times in a row is a no no and is seldom done in the media.
There are some exceptions of course, LA Times op-ed writer speaks for many of us when he writes:
Ramona
@Betty: Do you have a link for that?
Shakti
@schrodingers_cat:
I missed this gem:
I hate myself because I expect other people to show up for me or for a coalition whose gains they benefit from? Lmao. People who get prioritized over and over again above people who show up?
ETA: It’s weird to be told to prioritize people who don’t show up, who are actively part of why the world is worse and worse, and pretend they’ll change, granting them absolution and grace and byes, other people don’t get and never get.
ETA I’ve said it before, but I will never get over this white dude on Facebook getting very angry at me days after the 2016 election because he expected “feminists” and the cavalry to swoop in and defend Melania Trump from slut shaming and I said there’s a lot of other people who will be hurt by this administration so she’s “not my priority” and I’d get to her later and he was pissed enough to misquote Gandhi at me to try to shame me out of it.
Suzanne
@Shakti:
Hypocritical behavior is unacceptable, without question.
But: if you are not a cisgender, straight, white, Christian, independently wealthy, property-owning, able man, and you voted for Trump….. you voted against at least one of your interests and you deserve some blowback. Some commenters here will give some of those people a pass, which reveals more about them and their unconscious biases than it does about the electorate.
WTFGhost
@Scout211: I’m flashing back to when a child “needed attention,” they didn’t mean the tender loving kind, but it’s too late for that to help Silly-za.
@Spanky: I feel so badly for feeling so happy about the news, but, I do remind myself, Tesla is a *fine* target for creative destruction, with all the battery tech and manufacturing just waiting for a company headed by a sane CEO to snap it up.
Suzanne
@Shakti:
No, you evince gendered stereotypes because you expect greater care/solidarity from women than you do from men, even though most men should also be expected to care for and show up for you (on the grounds of shared humanity and basic-ass pro-social behavior). And men also should be expected to show up for that coalition, because most men also benefit from those gains.
Harrison Wesley
@schrodingers_cat: This looks true to me.
Ramona
@schrodingers_cat: I’ve found White women conservatives to be beyond persuasion. In the US though, White women are the largest voting bloc at 40% of the electorate (White men constitute 36%), so no campaign can ignore them. Two trends however give me hope: Women are more and more likely to pursue college education and White college educated women are voting for Democrats in ever expanding margins: In 2024, college-educated white women further cemented their shift to Democratic support since the 2016 presidential election. This group backed Hillary Clinton over Donald Trump by seven points, according to Edison’s 2016 exit poll. In 2020, Biden expanded that margin of support among college-educated white women to nine points. This year, Harris’ margin of victory among college-educated White women was 17 points.
The expanding margin of White college educated women’s Democratic vote seems to support another commenter’s observation that White women were voting as their husband. White women economically dependent on their husbands see their welfare tied to their husbands. Economically independent women vote in their own interests. I was surprised to read a paper that tracked women’s political identity through different eras and in different countries. I don’t remember which paper it was. But, I was surprised to learn that in the West, women were more conservative than men. Women’s vote in the West only skewed more liberal than men’s once 2nd wave feminism succeeded in facilitating women to enter the job market and achieve economic independence from men. The paper also found that women in Russia and Eastern Europe tended to be more conservative than men with the gap reducing as economic opportunities for women gradually opening up.
Matt McIrvin
@Ramona: Women are more actively religious than men, and have been for a long time. I think that’s driven greater social conservatism on their part until pretty recently.
schrodingers_cat
@Matt McIrvin: Sounds about right. I see this in India as well.
Omnes Omnibus
@Suzanne: I am not giving white men who vote for Trump a pass. I think they suck and I want nothing to do with them. I don’t, however, talk about them all that much because I think there are easier gets for us in terms of voting. If circumstances are such that we can get a majority of my nominal peers, then we probably have veto proof majorities nailed down anyway.
schrodingers_cat
@Shakti: Changing the topic to white men whenever white women’s voting patterns are mentioned is a yes-but dodge. Its says to the person bringing this up, I don’t want to listen to you. You don’t matter.
It is also treats white women like they have no agency. Which is, what is the word being thrown around in this thread, internalized misogyny.
Suzanne
@Omnes Omnibus: That’s reasonable. If we’re being strictly utilitarian, we absolutely go toward who we have a reasonable chance of persuading.
I object only to the unexamined ideas around personal interests, because I believe those contain a lot of unconscious expectations. If we are accepting that it is rational (if shitty, at least rational) for white men to vote for Republicans, but we think it’s irrational for white women to do so, that’s buying into tropes of women being, well, irrational. That’s internalizing misogyny. Ten minutes of analysis would indicate very clearly why it is no more irrational for many white women to vote for Republicans than for white men. They’re equally bad.
The vast majority of men in this country are better served under Democrats. I’m wondering why they’re not being asked for solidarity.
Omnes Omnibus
@Suzanne: Hell, I think all but the multi-billionaires who have no connection with actual society anymore are better off voting for Democrats. If I were quite rich, I would be able to enjoy my wealth more in a safe, well ordered society. James Carville, of all people, phrased it this way back in the ‘90s: If you were rich, would you rather live in Switzerland or the Philippines?
Suzanne
@Omnes Omnibus:
Yes this.
If we’re going to get into frothing rage at people who irrationally vote for the GOP against their interests, the list of our appropriate targets is very long! But one target repeatedly comes up! At some point, the dead horse is really fucken dead.
Matt McIrvin
@Omnes Omnibus:
I think there are a *lot* of people who would rather live in a poor country so they could have a lot of servants in their walled compound. There are people who really dig bossing around servants.
Kayla Rudbek
@RevRick: “false in one thing, false in all things” as my ancient Roman ancestors said (in Latin)