Following on John’s post, I wanted to add that Piss Christ by Andres Serrano is a strangely beautiful piece of art. There is a reverent, almost spiritual quality to it. I can see how some might be offended by the materials or the title, but the work transcends those complaints.
The hate-porn YouTube video about Islam? Not so much.
Of course, I can see how Fox News would confuse art and propaganda as well as time and space.
So it goes.
Cheers
Hal
Between this and Chris Wallace’s defense of Romney from the evil that is Peggy Noonan, has Fox now completely and totally dropped any pretense that they are anything but the media arm of the Republican Party?
I wonder how their loyal viewers will feel if Mitt goes down in flames and takes half the GOP with him?
Mnemosyne
Mike Dixon was saying in the thread below that the liquid is probably not actually urine, because it’s hard to get urine that color. Apple juice or beer is more likely (and, given the bubbles, beer seems like a decent guess).
Of course, since it was the 1980s, Serrano would naturally say it was whatever the most offensive golden liquid was that he could think of.
lamh35
what’s this I’m hearing about the State Department blasting CNN and Anderson Cooper for apparently reporting on Amb Chris Stevens journal or something. Did CNN actually report excerpts from Chris Stevens journal?
Maude
It is a liquid that won’t get cloudy.
lamh35
So I’m watching Star Trek: Generations. The movie where the Next Generation crew and the original crew are both “stars” of the movie. I can’t really remember if it was any good though. I’ll guess I’ll find out. Kinda can’t wait for the next new Star Trek movie with the younger versions of James T and the crew.
JoeShabadoo
Anything and I mean anything can look good with the right angle and the right lighting.
Arm The Homeless
GO NOLES!
I ran across this Speck Time To Rock for my nano 6gen.
I have seen the new nano, and it’s nice to see they are hewing to the iPod Touch design, I think the wrist-strap capability is really useful, despite some people finding it cumbersome. I still don’t like using iTunes, but it became a PITA to get sync and playlist pictures to consistently work with third party apps. Damn you Steve Jobs!
Maude
@lamh35:
Yes. His private journal. They got it somehow the bastids.
hildebrand
Didn’t Serrano use this as a critique of the way in which modern culture commercializes religion? If that is the case, then he was bang on.
What? Oh, the people who complained about this, and still complain about it, haven’t bothered to find out what inspired the artist in the first place? Bah, never mind then. If people can’t be bothered to actually learn about something, the really don’t get to complain.
PeakVT
Self-awareness is not a strong point amongst Faux viewers, is it?
hildebrand
In far more important news – I enjoyed the Dr. Who episode this evening, even if it did have a rushed denouemont.
lamh35
I like that in 1994 there weren’t digital picture frames, so the picture book in this Star Trek movie from 1994 is basically photos with what looks like tiny Christmas light around them…lol! You would think in what the 24th century, they’ll be digital photo albums, but it’s of course in ’94 did we think that was even possible?
It’s like seeing the “city of the future” stuff at the old world’s fair or watching the Jetsons and seeing how the future was thought to be back in the 60’s.
magurakurin
The trouble with our wingnut brothers and sisters is they just can’t do nuance. Art is lost to them, because art isn’t black and white. The meaning of any piece of art is open to interpretation and that’s what makes it art. That’s why there aren’t any journal articles about a velvet Elvis image. There’s nothing there to interpret or discuss.
Plus, the wingers never stop and think, they just jump in an condemn or praise based on that first impulse or more likely on “what they heard,” since they general have never even seen the painting, film or art object in question. I remember seeing Alan Keyes and Samuel L. Jackson on some discussion show (it might have been Politically Incorrect) and Keyes was going on about how Tarrentino had committed blasphemy by using scripture in such a profane movie. Jackson informed him that Tarrentino had actually written the quote from “scripture” himself and no such passage exists in the Bible. Keyes didn’t give up and just said more or less, Pulp Fiction is bad….because. And then he went on about how PF and other modern films destroy the message of Christ or some such shit. But anyone who has every actually watched the film (and it was obvious that Keyes had not) quickly realizes that the film actually is a defense of the teachings of Christ. Jackson character, a hired killer, sees his life transformed because, “God got involved.” And he last lines to “Ringo,” are now immortal, “but I’m trying, real hard, to be the Shepherd.” Piss Christ is the same. The message the artist intends was anything but “fuck Christians,” but nobody bothered to listen. Jackasses.
Peregrinus
@lamh35:
Though, then again, the original Star Trek series was hardcore prescient. Stuff like the medical readout computers and whatnot was unheard of, and yet now we’ve got pieces of it as standard equipment.
MikeJ
@hildebrand: I’m still catching up on last season. I know I should have finished it since there are only 13 eps per season but it always takes me forever.
I do have to say that one of the all time great last line before going to commercials is: “you’ve got a time machine, I’ve got a gun…”
1badbaba3
So the wingnuts are mad at Obama for not standing up for free speech by supporting the inflammatory anti-Islam “movie”. And then they’re mad at Obama for not banning Piss Christ, thus curtailing the artist’s free speech rights.
Just so we’re clear.
And yes it is quite arresting. Haunting even. I know he’s being intentionally provacative, but if he hadn’t this could very well have gone monster mainstream with the jeebus crowd.
Roger Moore
The right wing has no taste at all. Almost every piece of art they freak out about that I’ve seen is actually really excellent. They just hate modernism in all its guises.
The Dangerman
@Hal:
In scanning the channels, I saw where FOX was showing the Ambassador as he was being carried to the hospital; I don’t know if he was already dead as opposed to mortally injured, but, whichever, it was rather tasteless. Have to ramp up those anti-Muslim, anti-Obama voters, doncha know.
I haven’t seen that on any other channels (not that I’ve been actively looking).
Joseph Nobles
Beer Christ just doesn’t have the same punch, though, does it? It’s more like the slogan for the rowdy frat at Abilene Christian University.
gnomedad
From the Wikipedia article:
Apparently there remain at least a few traditional Christians who don’t regard self-awareness as sinful.
Splitting Image
I don’t think the visual quality of the image had much to do with the protests. It was really all about the title. If Serrano had titled the work “After the Flood”, the same guys calling it blasphemous would be arguing that the First Amendment requires elementary schools to display a print of it next to the Ten Commandments.
lamh35
@Peregrinus: yeah, I love stuff like that. Every time I see John King and CNN “magic wall” I’m reminded of the scene in “Minority Report” where Tom Cruise is controlling and maniuplated the touch screen computer.
MikeJ
@efgoldman:
It sounds more like a Utah/Boston campaign.
Peregrinus
@lamh35:
At The School we just put in “standing computer desks” because, no joke, “no one sits at their desk in the movies.”
Accompanied by images from The Avengers, no less. The general response was something of “when we make Robert Downey Jr.’s salary, then we’ll stand up at our computers.”
Pavonis
@1badbaba3: To be fair, sometimes you see Islam vs. Christianity double standards on the far Left as well. I remember on Daily Kos, hate speech against Christians getting tolerated with a balance of hide-rates + up-rates while similar stuff against Muslims getting users quickly banned. But this sort of thing is far more mainstream on the Right. You don’t see liberals with any sort of political authority ever bashing Christianity.
angelfoot
I remember the original controversy but I don’t recall ever having seen the actual work of art. The image in my head has always been a crucifix floating in a mason jar full of piss, thank you, main stream media! It’s really very beautiful and evocative.
Gian
I get the right to do it.
I get that you can look at it and think it’s cool.
I don’t get that that people who go to a building once a week and pray to that same symbol shouldn’t feel offended.
Hell I even think the feds should fund art like this under the NEA.
Hell and blood, and don’t get how this shit that happened decades ago is relavent now.
Of note if the NEA funded some sort of artistic affront to Islam, the same fuckers who bitch about this would be all over how cool it was and complainers just didn’t get it.
lamh35
Alright, I know the geeks at BJ will know the answer to this question. So I’m watching one of the Star Trek: Next Generation movies and Whoopi Goldberg’s character is in it and I can’t remember if Captain Picard and Guinan (Whoopi Goldberg) ever “knocked boots”? I serioulsy can’t remember if other than Dr Crusher I don’t remember any major love interest for Picard. I guess Kirk was the slutty captian and Picard was the chaster version?
MikeJ
@Pavonis: It’s not as if xtians are persecuted in the US, while Muslims actually have violence committed against them.
While they’re both equally full of shit, the group that forces their crap on the rest of us should grow a pair and not whine as much as they do.
Jewish Steel
@lamh35: I think we’re going to watch Insurrection tonight. I’m pretty sure this was the weakest of the Next Gen movies. More like an episode of the series. But I don’t watch Star Trek for conventional types of quality. I watch it to be immersed in that world, make fun of it a little, clutch my stomach at some of the heavy-handed moralizing, argue with the screenwriter’s choices.
Mostly to revel in it’s unapologetic secular humanism. Mmm, that’s some good shit.
Peregrinus
@lamh35:
I don’t think they ever did, but there was at least one other. Vash (the archaeologist-for-profit) showed up in a number of episodes. Though that was more of a “lust” interest.
jl
If that’s going to be a major work of art they keep around, seems it’ll be a restoration nightmare. But, IANAAR.
1badbaba3
@Hal: Well, we’re about to find out.
Oh boy this is going to be great.
dance around in your bones
@Joseph Nobles:
I don’t know, I kinda like Beer Christ. It ties in with FSM and the beer volcanoes; plus – wouldn’t you want to have a beer with Buddy Christ?
Peregrinus
@efgoldman:
It was hinted at, sort of, in that they talked about how profound their relationship was. But it was explicitly non-sexual.
Jamie
It is gorgeous. An iconic image that is going to be remembered. The irony is that the politicized fury about the image just made sure more people see it and value it, and raised Serrano’s profile. Mike Masnick over at Techdirt calls this the Streisand Effect. (+2, google it if you like.)
Serrano is a dick, as anyone who has worked in the NYC art world knows, but lots of good artists are dicks. I suspect his prints are selling at least at $400 premium because of the notoriety.
Emdee
Ronald Reagan didn’t address the AIDS crisis as president until “36,058 Americans had been diagnosed with AIDS and 20,849 had died.”
Has Mittens denounced Ronald Reagan yet, or is he objectively pro-AIDS?
lamh35
Also, shouldn’t there have been brighter lights in the future? The halls of the ship in this movie look like they are using dimmers?
RaflW
I’ve been away all day, so when I popped over here to BJ, I was pretty confused about the Piss Christ think.
Then I saw John’s post, and it didn’t clear up a damn thing.
Is the propaganda machine at Fox so broken that they can’t come up with something fresher than Obama not condemning a piece of art made when Obama was 26 years old? Srsly?
That’s what they got? They got so much nothing that a black hole may form.
robertdsc-PowerBook
The first time I heard of Andres Serrano was his artwork on the cover of Metallica’s Load album:
Load
I still think that album cover was pretty cool. Piss Christ, not so much.
I’m a distinct minority in that I like several of the tunes on Load.
Or something like that.Suffern Ace
Piss Christ was controversial in our cultural wars and became a cause to defund public arts programs. Even the always vile Jesse Helms didn’t actually put a bounty on the head of the artist. Unlike, say, Pakistans railroad minister. I’m not certain if there is enough similarities between the two affronts to religion And how they are developed make much sense.
lamh35
@efgoldman: Work and Troi??? Wow it’s been a while, cause I don’t remember that? I do of course remember Troi and Riker cause I had a bid of a crush on Jonathan Frakes…still kinda do.
ETA: No, wait, I do remember that. I was just a Troi-Riker-shiper
dance around in your bones
So, I’m watching a Chris Rock comedy special from like a million years ago where he appears to be wearing a vinyl or plastic suit.
Still funny as hell, though. (It’s got the $5,000 bullet thing in it).
(Bigger and Blacker)
piratedan
@efgoldman: first year with Coach Rodriguez, same team was 3-8 last year and they really aren’t good enough to be ranked, just caught Okie state at the right time and Rodriguez has them overachieving atm. The Ducks are a 3TD fave (deservedly so), the fact that AZ is still in the game is a testimonial to Rodriguez (even tho its still the 1st half)
catclub
@gnomedad: It seems like trying to have it both ways. If one says it is quite beautiful and then says it reflects what modern crass commershullism has done to our image of Christ, then beautiful does not make sense.
(I caught the hardness medication before I got moderated. Ha!)
jnfr
@hildebrand:
Eeeh, it had some good moments, but definitely rushed. All in all the only episode I’ve loved this year is the Dalek one.
shoutingattherain
@efgoldman: How quickly we forget Vash.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captain's_Holiday
RaflW
@gnomedad:
I love Sister Wendy! I was just at the Uffizi in Venice a couple weeks ago, and it was because I watched a Sister Wendy short like 10 years ago that I made sure to go see the Titians there. She was absolutely correct to talk about how sensual and amazing his nude was.
I told my partner how cool it was to have a celibate, buck-tooth English nun going on and on about the sensual and erotic Titian. Her programs are worth watching out for.
lamh35
@Jewish Steel: I’m watching Star Trek: Generations, which I think is the first Next Generations movie right? It’s the one where both the original and the Next Generations crews (or at least part of the original crew) were in the movie together.
lamh35
@Jewish Steel: I’m watching Star Trek: Generations, which I think is the first Next Generations movie right? It’s the one where both the original and the Next Generations crews (or at least part of the original crew) were in the movie together. It’s the one with Malcolm McDowell as the villain
Jewish Steel
@efgoldman: Ha!
Tangentially, my parents dragged me to a Unitarian church on Sundays when I was a kid until I kicked up such a fuss they left me at home. The only thing I remember about it was the the unforgettable name of the minister: The Rev Rupert Lovely.
Jewish Steel
@lamh35: That’s the one. With woefully under utilized Malcolm McDowell if I recall correctly.
catclub
@Or something like that.Suffern Ace: I look at what Christians were doing when their religion was 1400 years old (approximate age of the Islamic faith), and think softening takes a long time.
I am reminded of the description of witch burning: “If you _really_ did believe what those people apparently believed, then burning the witch seems sensible enough.” It is the ‘believing what they believed’ part that does not occur as much.
Dave Trowbridge
I read Piss Christ as a vivid illustration of the humility or kenosis inherent in the Incarnation. Wasn’t there some Church Father who spoke of God being born into the world between piss and shit?
RaflW
Oops, addled. I was at the Uffizi in Florence. Italy was lovely. Amazing food, fascinating people, and I totally ignored American politics for 11 days. That rivaled the trip itself for why I enjoyed my time.
Oh, and my partner needed urgent care, went to an Italian hospital in a small town. Got seen in 15 minutes in a modern, clean facility (with ancient peeling stucco on the outside). Total cost for the Dr? 25 Euros. Plus 30 Euros at a pharmacy.
Socialized medicine is just terrible! No wonder Mitt says “Europe” with such disdain. We can’t have people getting urgent care + medicines for maybe 75 bucks (total, not the co-pays). No sireee. Disaster.
Jewish Steel
@efgoldman: I’m surprised they couldn’t maybe give you a hand getting up there? Sounds like the kind of thing a church going Christian would be happy to do. Unless, of course, there was a lot of running up and down those stairs.
The Unitarian churches back east are quite lovely too, from what I’ve seen.
cckids
@gnomedad: Sister Wendy’s art programs (Netflix has them on DVD) are excellent and thought provoking. She knows her stuff & isn’t prudish at all.
Ronzoni Rigatoni
@RaflW: They moved the Uffizi from Florence?
Redshift
@RaflW: I suspect it’s the effect that was discussed in a post a little ways back (I’d link to it but I’m reading on my phone.) The wingnut machine must constantly be fed new outrage, and if they don’t have something like this, weak as it is, the wingnut-o-sphere might generate something embarrassing enough to get Republican campaigns in trouble, or even turn on Romney.
Jewish Steel
@efgoldman: Fascinating!
Maybe you could ride the bell ropes up? Quasimodo style?
Eh, scratch that. Probably a little dangerous.
Brachiator
@cckids:
I think that some of the Sister Wendy videos are also available as free downloads as part of the Amazon Prime Instant Video Service.
That said, the comparisons between Serrano and the YouTube video are a waste of time. Conservatives are using it to imply that Obama is supposed to be a Defender of the Christian faith and to get off their sly, despicable innuendo that Obama is either a stealth Mooslem or cares more about the feelings of foreign Muslims than he does about the sensitivities of Real Americans.
The defense of the Serrano piece is also misguided, and largely irrelevant. Apart from the fact that it also insults some Catholics, you could never do a similar piece about the Prophet and claim that it was somehow artistic and transcendent.
The YouTube video was deliberately insulting and provocative. But work that was not insulting, but equally provocative would still be problematic.
YellowJournalism
@dance around in your bones: I’d rather have a beer with regular Christ. Buddy Christ looks like he’d be a mean drunk by the end of the night. Regular Christ would call him a cab and help you escort Buddy Christ out of he party.
And Regular Christ always looks like he has weed on him, ready to share.
Randy P
If all you Trek fans haven’t read “Redshirts” by John Scalzi yet, you need to. The main idea is of course a takeoff on the “guy with the red shirt always dies” thing. But it’s actually quite a good story and the “codas” are quite touching.
I even forgive Scalzi for being a little cute with the codas. They’re epilogues, each one devoted to a different character who didn’t get much screen time in the main novel. They’re subtitled “first person”, “second person”, “third person” and not only are they each featuring a different person, but (here’s the cute part) they’re written in 1st person, 2nd person and 3rd person.
Yutsano
@lamh35:
It actually was the plot of a full episode.
Brachiator
BTW, you might want to consider joining this protest against darkness and ignorance, a petition to help free an Egyptian atheist, quoted from the skepchick site:
The new hotness in theocratic societies this season is beating, arresting, and prosecuting people for not believing in Allah. A few months back, freethinkers campaigned to free Indonesian atheist Alexander Aan, resulting in a failed petition and a lot of soul-searching from secular organizations trying to figure out how to do better next time. If you read the comments on that last link, you’ll see a whole bunch of atheists who were very angry that someone was pointing out that the atheist community completely failed to help someone in great need. I’m hoping those folks have as much energy to devote to getting angry over the arrest of yet another young atheist: Alber Saber, a 25-year old Egyptian blogger who ran the Egyptian Atheists Facebook group.
A “friend” of Saber figured out that he was running the Facebook page and spread the word. Soon an angry mob had formed outside his house, and Saber’s mother called the police, hoping that they’d disperse the people. Instead, in a turnaround we’ve seen happen again and again (I’ve ever read about it happening to 19th Century American freethinkers, like I think D.M. Bennett) the police arrested Saber instead.
That entire jolly party of deluded bigots was gathered due to one young man running a Facebook group. What. The. Fuck.
I “liked” the Free Alber Facebook page, but I wasn’t able to find any petition to get behind. So I made one! I’ve contacted the admin of the Free Alber page in the hopes that he can give me some more info, but in the meanwhile I plan to petition the Egyptian government as well as the United Nations and the US Department of State. Even if the Egyptian government doesn’t care about a petition, if we get enough traction then there’s a chance that this story could get picked up in the English-speaking media. If you have any suggested additions to the petition, please let me know.
But please, sign the petition and ask your friends to sign the petition. There’s a chance that we could help an innocent man who has been unjustly imprisoned for his atheistic views.
http://skepchick.org/2012/09/another-atheist-arrested-sign-this-petition/
Or something like that.Suffern Ace
@efgoldman: If I recall about churches and their services, the bells are supposed to ring at certain times during the service and the recording guy sneaking off to take a pee probably isn’t one of those times.
Xenos
Anybody remember the Christopher Ofili piece that also freaked out Giuliani and other religious authoritarians?
It was a picture of the Madonna that incorporated elephant dung into parts of the composition. Just like most of Ofili’s works, that use elephant dung.
The little dung-pieces look like a cloud of insects around the Madonna. She looks pissed off. She looks very non-caucasian.
So the Madonna, who would have been morally opposed to any human graven images, is supposed to be offended by Ofili and to adore western traditions of depicting her as a goddess and worshiping her images as such?
That is not even getting to the issue of why she depicting all the time as standing in the middle of a giant vagina. That shit is sick, man.
Randy P
If I post and don’t see my message does that mean I’m in moderation? Don’t you usually see a copy of your own message with “this message is in moderation” when that happens? I’m seeing nothing.
DougJ
This is what I’ve never understood. I’m not a believer now, but I was when piss Christ was made. And at the time I thought it was beautiful depiction of the crucifixion.
? Martin
@Pavonis: Liberals criticize those in power. Conservatives criticize those out of power. Always and forever. In the US, Christianity should be held to a higher standard because it wields vastly greater power.
dance around in your bones
@YellowJournalism:
Ok, I’d share a doobie with Regular Christ. I bet he wouldn’t bogart, either – he’d pass it over to me :)
JGabriel
@jl:
It’s a photograph, not an installation. The liquid medium does not need to be “maintained”.
.
suzanne
I have always loved this piece. So beautiful and meaningful and, yes, uncomfortable. Like good art should be.
Omnes Omnibus
@DougJ: The title. Linking piss and Christ was useful for those who hate the NEA. End of story.
Jay in Oregon
@efgoldman:
Whoopi Goldberg’s character Guinan once explained that her relationship with Picard went “beyond friendship and beyond family.” In an episode where Data and members of the Enterprise crew travel back to the 19th Century, they find Guinan on Earth in the company of Mark Twain. It’s implied that Guinan meets Picard later in her life (though obviously much earlier in his) and they became…whatever they are to each other.
The post-TNG Star Trek novel Stargazer: Oblivion fills in the details of Picard’s first encounter with Guinan.
Crusty Dem
I saw a large Serrano showing in the mid-nineties with my parents, who weren’t too religious (at the time, full-blown atheism followed..). My father was impressed/amused with Piss Christ, as well as the other piss/blood pieces, but we both laughed ao hard we could barely remain upright after seeing the “ejaculate in flight” series.
suzanne
@lamh35:
In one episode, she tells Riler that she and Picard are “beyond friends and beyond family”. To my knowledge, this is never clarified. Her character is supposed to be one of the few remaining members of a race after a genocide, so I think that the subtext is that Picard saved her in some way.
End nerd.
Arundel
And of course, Serrano blessed us all with another 25 years of beautiful and thoughtful art after “Piss Christ”, his sincere and meaningful statement piece.
Oh wait, that didn’t happen at all. Anyone who thinks Serrano wasn’t a craven opportunist with this piece, piggybacking on the Mapplethorpe controversy two years later in 1989 to get himself some fame..uh, just not the case. Met him twice myself, he’s a creepy queen. I won’t give further details on his behavior when I met him, I’ll just say overpraising “Piss Christ” aesthetically turns my stomach. It was a stunt for fame, to get noticed, and I cannot believe I’m transported back over twenty years to talk about this stupid, embarrassingly large edition of a really mediocre-at best image. Like, this shit again? Serrano is a famewhore and a terrible artist, sorry, even talking about this “meh” stupid piece yet again is such a waste of fvcking time. And completely buying into the right-wingnut idiocy about it from two decades ago. You like it aesthetically Dennis? That’s fine. It’s more significant as a famous work of publicity by a mediocre artist than any truly significant work of art.
And can we get over the idea that Serrano wasn’t trying to insult Christianity with “Piss Christ”? Uh, get over it, he really was. He’s one of those sorts who thinks being sent to a Catholic school as a kid was like Dachau or something. Kind of full of shit. Yeah, I’m a gay artist too, who went to Catholic school. Wouldn’t dream of blaming that for shit, and uh yeah, Serrano is a publicity hack and a shit artist.
He told me as much, at a drunken party, years and years ago. “Piss Christ” was meant as an insult against Catholicism. Which for some people seems like this neurotic cesspit of blame. “Those nuns were mean!” Boo hoo for you. Honestly, he is not an artist worth even thinking about. I’m quite the agnostic myself, but I’d never disrespect my Catholic upbringing- Christ’s message of peace and compassion and love- “Do unto others..”- well, that’s all you need, right there. My family have never been that terribly religious, but respectful. I fully support Serrano’s right to create and show “Piss Christ”, and the next two decades of his sub-mediocre career. Whatever. It’s the overpraise I can’t really stand. No one would’ve known of it those decades ago, but Serrano probably hired a press agent, and the rightwingnuts ate it up. “Controversy!”. And he got famous. Slow sarcastic clap for Serrano.
Who told me it was meant as desecration, out of his own anger at the Church. Which, his own thing. There’s a funny blurring of free-speech and the glee some liberals find in celebrating that utterly mediocre publicity stunt. “Piss Christ” is not even third-rate as art. Just, why is Christian belief somehow fair game for our side, and no other religion is? When is brave Serrano going to do “Piss Mohammed And I Live At 180 Mulberry Street”? See, that would be sort of brave.
Don’t mean this as any sort of thing, but my Dad died on Monday, and last night was his funeral. He was like me, not particularly religious, but appreciated Christ’s message of love and compassion. Not religious, not a church-goer (or “holy roller” as he called them), but he did believe in Christ’s message. Coming from Ireland (as both my parents do, mom from the North) I quite liked his mix of the secular and that respect. When I came out as gay at 22, he was the first one to hug me and say, “So what!”. He was a humanist, a liberal Dem, a NYC cop for twenty years. He knew his time was drawing near, and “JC” was his friend, and heart and soul, as he had always quietly been. I despise people who disrespect that. I despise people who feel free to just trash other peoples’ religious beliefs, but only if they’re American and Christian. Because of the lunatic right-wing.
I understand that. But sometimes, people need some religion, that’s why it’s there. Some liberals wouldn’t dream of trashing Buddhism, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism. But Christianity is always fair game to mock. Like Serrano personally told me was his intention with “Piss Christ”.
Dennis, my post wasn’t really directed to you..I apprciate that you liked the aestetic qualities of Serrano’s notorious picture. Tastes differ. Best to you. Ask Tom Levenson for some art history tips though, to sort the wheat from the chaff. And the naff.
jl
@JGabriel: thanks for the info. Fuss over it seems even sillier now that I know that.
Or something like that.Suffern Ace
@? Martin: Well no. This is a state matter and the liberal position is that the state doesn’t get to take positions on these matters no matter who has more power. Conservatives want to use the state to maintain religious institutions and to decide which religious groups make valid claims. I think it’s ok for the state to try to mediate to keep order, but not meddle.
The prophet Nostradumbass
@Arundel:
How can you piggyback on something that hasn’t happened yet? The Serrano photo is from 1987.
Chris T.
@Peregrinus: I’m about half convinced that half the reason the original Star Trek did so well (relatively speaking) in forecasting future tech (compared to, say, the more modern Star Trek…) was because of their very low budget.
The low budget meant that they could not afford to project current ideas into the future and fancy them up. Instead, they had to ask: “what would someone WANT to have, if they could just wave their hands and have it?” The obvious answers were things like “non-invasive measurement tools”.
(The other half of the reason, of course, was that the original Star Trek had actual SF writers writing scripts for it. This had its own pluses and minuses of course.)
suzanne
@Arundel: I have to say that I actually really enjoy this piece, and obviously for reasons other than what Serrano intended. For me, the fact that the crucifix is plastic, and therefore the manufacture of it gave off more pollutants than the human who pissed in the jar (piss being sterile), I’ve always considered to be the most interesting tension of the piece. To me, the idea that the human, organic product was neutral while the plastic, artificial element was more harmful to the world I found to be, yes, a refutation of religion, but an interesting one. Obviously, I’m reading into it something that you say Serrano didn’t intend, but I do think it’s possible for mediocre or even crappy artists to do something interesting. (Speaking of crap, his “Shit” series is a total bore to me, and the blood-and-semen pictures don’t interest me, either.)
Hal
@lamh35:
I’m setting phasers on kill. Vash, and my personal favorite, Lieutenant Commander Nella Daren?
JGabriel
@Hal: Don’t forget Kamala (Famke Jansen).
.
FlipYrWhig
@The prophet Nostradumbass: The notorious Mapplethorpe show is from late 1988, and blew up in summer 1989. Wikipedia entry for Mapplethorpe
The prophet Nostradumbass
@FlipYrWhig: Fine, but the Serrano photo is from before that.
? Martin
@JGabriel: Om non nom…
dance around in your bones
@efgoldman:
I know you’re prolly asleep by now (I got caught up watching The Newsroom – which is like The West Wing, in a way – you WISH things operated that way) but I had the exact same thought.
What if Jesus turned all that water into weed, instead? Western civilization might have been transformed.
That is, if he actually existed and all.
Yutsano
@JGabriel: To be fair though, Kamala loved him more than he loved her. But that was her curse being what she was.
Joey Maloney
Wholly fuque!
Mitt Romney paid for son’s surrogate ‘abortion contract’, right to kill fetus
Mnemosyne
@Brachiator:
Problem being, of course, that an image of Christ on the cross is a completely ordinary and accepted one that you see in every Catholic church — it’s the context of it being in piss that makes it blasphemous. There is no similarly ordinary and accepted image of Mohammed that could receive similar treatment.
If a Jewish artist did an image of Jehovah, I guarantee you that s/he would be getting death threats from right-wing Jews no matter how otherwise “respectful” the image was. And if s/he did one the way Western artists have decided to depict Mohammed (as, say, a murderous pedophile or a suicide bomber), s/he would have to go into hiding.
@suzanne:
IMO, even mediocre artists can manage to create one great piece, and they often have no idea why that one piece works and their other ones don’t. That’s what makes them mediocre artists.
Narcissus
I remember Guinan saying something about being into guys with bald heads. So yeah, I think they probably had sex. Not normal sex, but like some kind of cosmic-space-time-continuum sex or something.
Narcissus
@Joey Maloney: god does not love us that much
ruemara
@lamh35: There was always an implied ex relationship.
Mike S.
piss christ = reverent?
Dennis G. = crackhead or troll.
what the fuck is wrong with you, Dennis?
not that I have any impulse to venerate the supposed ‘king of the jews’, but seriously: immersed in piss is somehow a display of reverence…?
get a dictionary, jackass
dance around in your bones
Totally OT – but I had a friend who was married to Bobby Keys (back in the day)….here’s a video of The Rolling Stones ‘Going to a Go-GO’ with Mick in Superman tights. Funny.
Also, Bobby Keys “Miss You” – just for fun.
To get off the serious Piss jeebus stuff (prolly ’cause I am now watching Shine a Light on Palladia at the moment).
Xenos
@Mike S.: You really do not understand what artists have been doing over the last 150 years, do you? Titling something ‘Piss Christ’ means that it is an act of blasphemy? No other possible meanings, no other points that can be made or inferred from this photograph? You are aware that this is a photographic print, and not a jar of piss with a crucifix in it, that is put on display for us?
Here is a hint: shit that is ambiguous is ambiguous for a reason. If you can’t be bothered to think a bit, don’t engage the conversation.
xian
@The Dangerman: there’s a whole wingnut meme that the men trying to rescue the ambassador actually stripped and raped his corpse. their infamy knows no bounds.
Anne Laurie
@Joey Maloney:
To be fair, the younger Romney & his wife would probably argue that what they intended — apart from what I suspect is standard legal boilerplate for such transactions — is that, if “their” child turned out to be Downs, anencephalic, or otherwise “abnormal”, the surrogate couldn’t decide to abort “their” child without their permission. (Which would, of course, be withheld.) Choose life, whatever the maternal vessel may think about the future quality of such life!
Amir Khalid
@The prophet Nostradumbass:
I think Arundel means that Serrano saw an opportunity to publicize a work he already had on hand, rather than deciding to create something new just to ape Mapplethorpe. Which seems quite plausible to me.
The impression I get of Serrano is that he’s a one-hit wonder who has promoted the hell (sorry) out of his one accidental hit: a petulant swipe at the church of his upbringing that has been interpreted as having more and deeper meanings than he ever intended.
This is not to say that the critics who saw those other meanings were deluded or somehow deceived. What happens between the work of art (novel, painting, song, movie, whatever) and the person looking at it is what determines the work’s meaning and merit. The artist himself is largely out of this loop, no matter how loudly he promotes himself.
Xenos
@Amir Khalid:
That impression may well be right. I think of it as an accidentally great work of art – you have this vague, ambivalent bit of shit-stirring, followed by a terribly amusing if somewhat creepy performance piece by christofascists running around denouncing crap they have not bothered to understand in the first place. I would like to think that Serrano meant to do this all along, but it does not really matter. Who says a great work of art can’t happen by accident?
Arundel
@Nostradumbass:
How can you piggyback on something that hasn’t happened yet? The Serrano photo is from 1987.
Nostradumbass, what fucking part of “two years later” are you too illiterate to understand? That “Piss Christ” was from 1987 as I wrote, and the Mapplethorpe controversy was in 1989, and Serrano jumped in on that controversy for his moment of notoriety? No one anywhere gave a shit about Serrano’s piece in 1987, it was not that well known because he was a nobody and as art it’s kind of shit. It was right-wingers who made him famous, TWO YEARS LATER LIKE I SAID IN 1989 OR 1990 WITH HIS SHOCKING ART and he’s produced nothing of note since. If you’re saying “Piss Christ” was controversial in 1987 when it was made, rather than later in 1989, you’re quite fucking wrong. He piggybacked on the Mapplethorpe controversy with an old work to make a sorry-ass name for himself. Hired a publicist to make it a bigger deal and get himself known.
Missing the point: the whole point of this “controversy” was rightwingers attacking the NEA and the very idea of arts funding in America. Because of Mapplethorpe and Serrano getting public funding for exhibitions. It’s too late at night to argue with idiots, but I was aware, young and alive and active in the arts community in NYC when all these bull “controversies” were happening. You do realize Mapplethorpe had died in 1989, right Nostodumbass? Like, he didn’t take all his pictures that year before he kicked it? Doing it for 20 years, does that make sense to you?
I was saying yes, Serrano piggybacked on the Mapplethorpe controversy to make a name for himself. Right-wingers might have attacked him first, but he made the careerist best of it. It’s the only reason we’re talking about him now over two decades later. Because he sucks as an artist.
Djur
@Arundel: I bet that felt good. You need a cigarette now? Don’t worry, the bad man can’t hurt you if you don’t let him.
Xenos
@Arundel: Not to excuse whatever Serrano did in terms of bandwagon-jumping on the contoversies relating to much greater artists than himself, but wasn’t it included in the Saatchi traveling exhibit that was intended to piss as many people off as possible? An ambivalent, unclear statement being given a different meaning by tacky promoters… would not be the first time.
Maybe I am conflating different ‘scandals’ that were swirling around when the religious right started to look for random crap to keep the rubes all jazzed up.
Xenos
@Arundel:
Maybe it has something to do with iconography, the use of art as propaganda over the last 2,000 years, and the fact that anything that finds a new angle on this stuff is interesting even if it is not, strictly speaking, ‘good’?
I don’t really care much what Serrano says he thought he was doing when he took the picture and gave it a title. Whether or not he had blasphemy in his heart is really the least interesting aspect of the work and its role in the public discourse.
But I am not a professional artist, just someone who likes talking about art on occasion. As someone committed to art you may have a much lower bullshit tolerance.
ETA: To answer the part of the question, the Sunni’s get some respect from me on this issue because they take the forbidding of graven images pretty seriously. The Shia have their own kitschy tradition of Muhammed-image reverence, so I consider them to be full of shit. Their are plenty of legitimate nuances that can be considered on this issue.
Thlayli
@magurakurin:
The citation Jules gives, Ezekiel 25:17, is the last line of the speech: “And they will know that I am the Lord when I lay my vengeance on them.” The rest of it is made up.
Cargo
Well, I hope this is a good picture, and I hope everyone involved is happy because this is why we don’t have an NEA, PBS or NPR anymore.
Emma
Cargo: bullfeathers. It may have been the excuse, but it wasn’t the reason. Conservatives in this country have been gunning to destroy every form of support for public art since forever. Like every sort of conservative the world over, they feel threatened by anything that gives The Help ideas. (edit) NPR destroyed itself without much help when they decided that catering to the crazies was the way to protect their funding.
Cargo
@Emma: And this was the giant piece of ammunition that we handed them. Yes the right has been against public funding of anything other than killing people since forever. This piece was the catalyst for them to finally get their wish and redline every publically funded cultural anything as blasphemous. Greeaatt.
Granted, if it wasn’t for this it would have been some other thing. But still. Thanks a lot, Serrano. Hope you’re happy.
Emma
@Cargo: So what you’re saying is that an artist should self-censor just in case there’s a political backlash to their work? I’d call that “surrendering without firing a shot.”
Lihtox
The image of someone dying on a cross should be disgusting and disturbing, but the image of the crucified Jesus is so widespread that its power to disgust has been lost. Piss Christ brings that back. Heck, if the torturers could have lowered Jesus into a giant vat of piss while he was on the cross, they probably would have!
gogol's wife
What you say in your post is exactly what I wanted to say in the comments last night but was too tired to formulate it correctly. These two things are not the same.
Lojasmo
@Emma:
Every artist should assure that their art never stirs an emotion in any person viewing or listening to it. Then all art will have equal value. Life will be perfect then, and the NEA will be fully funded to produce and promote endless meaningless works of art for the enjoyment of all people. Bliss.
Cargo
excluded middle fallacy wins again
grandpa john
@hildebrand: Why would they,Hell they are the one’s doing the pissing
redshirt
Only glorious depictions of St. Ronnie should be sponsored by the Government. All other art is blasphemy.
Dennis G.
@Arundel: No offense taken.
It is quite possible for Serrano to be a dick with the intention to offend for profit and to create something beautiful at the same time. I think he did that, but without the hype I doubt that anybody would ever talk about him or his work. And yet, hype and myth and culture inform the way we interpret images and art. Playing with those cultural touch points–challenging them, mocking them, celebrating them and casting them in a new light–is where art finds power.
Your Dad sounds like a great guy. Thanks for that digression.
Cheers
debbie
You’re assuming your interpretation of the piece is the only way to see it. When it first came out, I read it to mean how the Catholic Church had pissed all over the actual teachings of Jesus, but then I’m an ex-history major.
In that light, Islam still has a far way to go to equal the Catholic Church.
satby
Arundel, my sympathies on the passing of your father.
Woodrowfan
@JGabriel: thanks, I wondered who else might remember her…
Woodrowfan
Arundel, you Dad sounds like a good man. My sympathies for your loss….
damn good mr. jam
Some wingnut pushes the idea that Piss Christ is relevant in 2012, and now here we are, having an earnest debate about its artistic merit. Score one for the wingnuts.
ChristianPinko
For crying out loud, “Piss Christ” is an attempt to insult and upset Christians, nothing less. If you like that, fine, but don’t pretend it’s more than that. Own your Christian-hating.
Brachiator
@Emma:
No. It’s that artists and critics are infantile fools when they prattle about how their art is meant to be provocative and upset middle class drones and then demand they they should receive public funding to subsidize their work.
@Lihtox:
And yet a lot of hand wringers dismissed Mel Gibson’s “Passion of the Christ” as torture porn and insisted that it just wasn’t right to depict the crucifixion as painful and degrading.
Mnemosyne
@ChristianPinko:
Read some of the comments here — that may have been the (mediocre) artist’s original intent, but quite a few people can see interesting and even profound things in that image about the commercialization of religion, how some “Christians” have traveled far away from Christ’s actual message of love and charity, etc. IMO, the artist accidentally created an image with a meaning far beyond what he thought he was saying.
If you hadn’t been told ahead of time that the golden liquid that the crucifix had been immersed in was urine, would you have the same immediate reaction that the photograph was blasphemous? Look at it again and be honest with yourself.
Herbal Infusion Bagger
Sister Wendy is great. But I’d take another read on it. Christ, above all represents the sublimation and transcendence over degradation and suffering. If a Roman pierced his side while he was in the cross, I’m sure they could a done a whiz on the cross as well.
Herbal Infusion Bagger
If we’d been told it was (white) sacramental wine, and he’d titled it “blood of the savior”, you’d see it on a dozen Xtian rock albums.
Herbal Infusion Bagger
If we’d been told it was (white) sacramental wine, and he’d titled it “blood of the savior”, you’d see it on a dozen Xtian rock albums.
Arundel
Just want to thank Dennis G for his sarcastic condolences. “Thanks for that digression.” about my father’s death.
Yes, it was a digression, my hugest apologies. Just , it has made me think about his own relation to Christ, his message of mercy and compassion, and what it means to us, the living. I don’t think it’s a bad message in the fucking least.
I apologize for bringing up my Dad’s death on Monday in this context. It was a bit much. But I was writing freely, off the cuff and from the heart. Maybe Serrano’s picture is actually terrible art, and meant to insult.
I regret bringing up my Dad’s passing this week in this context. That was unfair of me , even though I had just come from a Catholic service sending him off. Dennis G, you like “Piss Christ” aesthetically, that’s cool. Maybe just as a front-pager you could restrain yourself from sending me such a sarcastic condolence, saying it’s a “digression”. It was actually quite in tune with what I wanted to say. That my father was not a church-goer, but he believed deeply in Christ and his message of love and compassion to all people. You’re the one who brought up this mediocre picture again. You admire it? Great, fine.
Dennis G, thanks for your hugely sarcastic response to my “digression”. I wish I hadn’t brought up my dad’s death and Catholic send-off, and how I feel it relates to what a nasty piece of work Serrano is in person. But I did, so there it is. Thank you for being so fvcking open-minded and not at all the nastiest piece of shit you could’ve been to me there. Thanks! Shan’t forget that, babe. Permanent uh, disliker of you for good, you’ve made of me. Not saying enemy. Mocking my dad’s death like that. Or, my bringng it up.
“Digression”. You didn’t address my question, why it’s cool to mock Christ and Catholicism, my dad’s faith and a bit of my own, and no other religion. Why? Coward. You just suck, Dennis G. Thanks for your sarcastic condolences for my dad’s death-it’ll be a week tomorrow. Sheer class, Dennis G. Fvck you.