John Hawkins has the bloggers choices of the worst Americans in history up:
17) Franklin Delano Roosevelt (6)
17) John Walker (6)
17) Lee Harvey Oswald (6)
17) Robert Byrd (6)
16) Aldrich Ames (7)
14) Richard Nixon (8)
14) Aaron Burr (8)
12) Al Sharpton (9)
12) Charles Manson (9)
8) Timothy McVeigh (10)
8) Lyndon Johnson (10)
8) Hillary Clinton (10)
8) John Wilkes Booth (10)
7) Alger Hiss (12)
6) Noam Chomsky (13)
4) Jesse Jackson (14)
4) Jimmy Carter (14)
3) Bill Clinton (15)
2) Benedict Arnold (19)
1) The Rosenbergs (15) & Julius Rosenberg (5) (20 total votes)
I can agree with a lot of them (I listed a few of them), but Bill and Hillary Clinton do not belong on the list, as much as I may dislike their transparent political maneuvering, the lying, and the hypocrisy. Hillary Clinton has, to date, been a pretty Hawkish Senator, and other than that, she was an unimportant First Lady whose main achievement was to settle temporarily what the American public felt about nationalized Health Care. Yes, she is a liar and a fraud, yes, I know about the cattle futures and the billing records and her relationship with all the people the Clinton’s used to smear people, but she does not belong on the same list as the Rosenbergs or John Wilkes Booth or Alger Hiss for chrissakes.
Bill Clinton, despite all his shortcomings and his petulance and his perjury and his womanizing, did do a number of good things for the country. Like NAFTA, and Welfare Reform, Kosovo, and, I can also heap what is the highest praise any president should get for the economy- he didn’t screw it up (I don’t think Presidents fix economies or are responsible for good ones- unlike the Democrats trying to smear Bush with this business cycle). Plus, if anyone has done more for the Republicans, it has been Bill and Hillary Clinton. Do you know how many candidacies have been funded from Republican fund-raising because of these two? Do you realize that the Democrat party is in shambles because of the power grabs of these two? Do you understand how lucky the Republicans are to have the Clinton’s pick (McAullife) running the DNC?
Bill and Hillary are sewer trout, but they aren’t the worst Americans to ever live- not by a longshot. Claiming they belong on the list makes you guys sound like the Daily Kos or Oliver Willis or Atrios or the Democrat Underground talking about Bush. I mean folks, some perspective, please. John Wayne Gacy dressed up as a clown, seduced young boys, then strangled them while raping them. He did this to a few dozen boys. He didn’t make the list, but Hillary Clinton got ten votes and Bill got 15? Jeebus.
Some people that should be on that list (and were on my list):
Sirhan Sirhan
James Earl Ray
These two assassins shattered the dreams of millions. I think that is a rather odious accomplishment. Also on the list should be:
Ramsey Clark (*- I edited him in a day late- he was on my initial list to John Hawkins, bvut I forgot about him while writing this post until I read a reader comment. The Rammer most certainly belongs on this list.)
Robert McNamara
Lee Iacocca (for the K Car).
Finally, my list also included Dallas Cowboy turned Raider turned nobody linebacker Larry Brown for intercepting two of Neil O’Donnell’s passes in Super Bowl XXX to stop the inevitable Steeler comeback and officially ruin my decade. Honorable Mention to Francisco Cabrera for knocking in the game winning run (Game 7- GAME FRIGGING SEVEN IN THE NINTH INNING- ARGGGGGH!!) for the Braves over my Pirates in the 1992 NLCS (or should I be mad at Jose Lind for that damned error?). Issues, I have issues.
*** Update ***
Roger Simon makes some good points about why the selection of the Clintons and the Jimmy Carter is just stupid.
*** Update #2 ***
Dean Esmay has a truly impressive list of villains up, and agrees with me that it is absurd to include the Clintons.
*** Update #3 ***
Great minds think alike- Michele at A Small Victory concurs regarding the Clintons.
*** Update #4 ****
Kim du Toit respectfully disagrees. Hell, he could have rudely disagreed and I would still be polite. Have you seen his gun collection?
Dave Weigel
And despite those statements – which I agree with 100% – lefty bloggers will still call you a “winger” who’s obsessed with “the Clenis.”
I hate the internet sometimes.
Dean Esmay
Oh come on. Everybody knows that the Clintons killed Vince Foster, Ron Brown, and half the Republicans in Arkansas…
;-)
platosearwax
I’ll put Larry Brown on my list as well. As much as I love my Dolphins I was an honorary Steeler fan that season. Plus, the Cowboys?? Ugh.
mark
Ramsay Clark, anyone?
John Cole
The rammer was on my list.
barney gumble
John Cole is a winger obsessed with the Clenis.
Of course, he also got giddy that the dow was up to 9150 a few weeks ago (seen it today?), so his judgement is a little suspect.
The worst part, is those dastardly Clintons concealed the evidence of their misdeeds so cleverly Ken Starr couldn’t find it.
And moving that mountain so Ron Brown’s plane could slam into it–evil genius!
And then, manipulating the Repub House and Senate into only giving $97 million to remove Saddam in 1998–eviler genius!
Then, going back in time to the 1970’s to sell missile technology to China–is their no end to their evil genius?
Moe Lane
You were saying, Dave?
Norbizness
If you’re talking evil Pittsburgh Pirates throughout history, how about Barry Bonds, who couldn’t throw out Sid Bream (who had two broken legs, a malfunctioning kidney, and an inner ear disorder) at home plate from about 150 feet away?
Oh, and the original list was insane, to say the least. Noam Chomsky? Al Sharpton? Robert Byrd?Get some perspective, you cretins!
However, it is good to see life imitate Simpsons parody: “Jimmy Carter? He’s history’s greatest monster!”
RW
Everyone had their own criteria, so they could’ve made their list consisting of ‘bad politicians’ or something. Mine was primarily made up of killers, but I set aside a few slots for public figures that hadn’t committed crimes (it didn’t involve the Clintons, btw).
Oh, and Francisco Cabrera was the highlight of the 90s for me (sorry). The only question was: How could Bonds not manage to throw out Bream when he had the ball in short left as Bream was touching 3rd base? I thought he had a decent arm?
David Perron
I think Clinton deserves honorable mention, but doesn’t deserve to be on the list. The Monica Lewinsky bit is nothing. Systematically dismantling our human intelligence apparatus and cutting defense acquisition back to Carter levels were pretty bad. Still, honorable mention at most.
Klaus Fuchs would definitely have made high on the list, had be been an American citizen.
And what about Jim Jones? Doesn’t he deserve a place high on the list? Do we judge “worst Americans” more severely if they’ve killed a lot of people, or if they’ve done damage to the country, which may eventually (but indirectly) cost lives? Dunno. But if you put Bundy on honorable mention, you’ve got to put Jones high on the list.
John Cole
Jim Jones was on my list too- forgot to add him in this post. Should have saved the email I sent to RWN so I could get all my picks up there.
Joel
I’m a dallas cowboys fan so I resent your including Larry Brown in that list. How about that shit head ref from the SUper Bowl in Jan. 1979 who called a pass interference on Benny Barnes which ws a bullshit call?
AnswertheQuestion
Joel:
You mean Fred Sweringen? That was a bad call, but if Jackie Smith catches that pass in the end zone…
Larry Brown has no business being on the list. Hell, O’Donnell threw them RIGHT TO HIM! I could have caught those two passes. I think O’Donnell got paid to throw the game!
John Cole
I’m a dallas cowboys fan so I resent your including Larry Brown in that list.
Tough. I am a Steelers fan. If the Cowboys and the Browns were in the Super Bowl, I would be rooting for injuries.
Larry Brown has no business being on the list.
Sure he does- it is MY LIST.
James Joyner
I’m with you on this one, except for James Earl Ray.
Sure, he did those insipid “This is CNN” commercials, but he was quite good as Darth Vader and as Admiral Greer in the Tom Clany movies.
Pauly
How the hell did FDR get on there? I mean, social policies aside, I would think there is a reason he was a 4-term President and carried the country through most of WW2. That took some brass ones.
But hey, that other guy only killed a President, not a whole bunch of Germans!
Eric Sivula
Pauly, the first thing FDR did as President was recognize the USSR as the “valid” government of the former Russian Empire. FDR employed several known Soviet spies, and promoted Alger Hiss after the Army told him that Hiss was an agent. FDR is the one who agreed to sacrifice the Eastern Europeans to the Soviets as a “buffer” zone. He refused to the Soviet Union as a threat to the United States, even though they had said they were. If you feel that all the Soviets spies, Hiss and the Rosenbergs for ex,, from the ’30’s to early ’50’s were dangerous to the US, then you have to blame the men who were shown evidence of these spies’ identities and took no action. That would be FDR and Truman.
Pauly
Good points. I learn something new every day!
John Cole
James Earl Ray shot MLK.
James Earl Jones played Darth Vader, just fyi.
I have a feeling that was a joke, but just in case…
Kimmitt
It is relevant that before WWII, the USSR was considered a lesser Power, unable to even defend its colonial possessions against Japanese aggression — and a vital ally against the onrushing Fascist juggernaut. Within that context, FDR’s actions regarding recognizing the USSR start making more sense.
Also, keep in mind that this was during the Great Depression, when it was a genuinely open question as to whether capitalist systems were economically viable.
Don’t get me wrong — y’all go right ahead and hate the man who pulled us out of the Depression and guided us through WWII. And please be public about it; the center needs to know what the Right really thinks.
McGehee
There does seem to be this misimpression that FDR was some kind of presidential superhero who singlehandedly defeated a Great Depression that would have murdered every man, woman and child in their sleep if he hadn’t come along and saved us all.
Hoover’s tax hikes to balance the budget aggravated the economy; otherwise things should have been starting to turn up by 1932.
FDR took Keynes’s advice that government spending would get the economy moving again, yet he was well into his third term before significant results began to be seen — and that because of industrial mobilization as a result of WW2.
Admiral Yamamoto probably had as much to do with recovering from the Great Depression as FDR did.
David Perron
What’s this y’all crap? Kimmitt’s from Illinois, for cryin out loud. I’ve lived south of the Mason-Dixon for a couple of decades, and I don’t even talk that way.
M. Scott Eiland
Though I happen to think that FDR did a decent job as a wartime President (which is only fair, since the war succeeded in doing what he had failed to do in two terms; namely, end the Depression), it is worth remembering that on his order–and with the enthusiastic cooperation of a certain Governor of California by the name of Earl Warren–110,000 Japanese-Americans (who had been vouched for as being loyal by no less a civil libertarian than J. Edgar Hoover) were rounded up and left to rot for four years, depriving them of their freedom and in most cases devastating them financially. For those liberals who enjoy mouthing off about GWB and John Ashcroft being the second coming of Adolf Hitler and Heinrich Himmler, it might be instructive to look into the wartime civil rights records of two of *your* patron saints.
Barney Gumble
Bloggers can kiss the myth of “The Anti-Idiotarian Movement” good-bye… unless the following poll just published (and solicited) by Right Wing News… Bloggers Select The 20 Worst Figures In American History … with Bill Clinton and Jimmy Carter at 3 and 4 behind The Rosenbergs and Benedict Arnold … is to be taken as a joke. (And if it is, the juvenile nitwits who voted this way are no threat to the Saturday Night Live writing staff when it comes to humor). But somehow I don’t think these votes were meant to be funny–and that’s what’s pathetic. A group that sees Hillary Clinton as more horrible than Charles Manson and Timothy McVeigh has… to put it kindly… some growing up to do. This isn’t a day I would be proud to be called a member of “The Right Wing.”
Roger L Simon
M. Scott Eiland
I wouldn’t be so smug, Barney. Apparently there’s going to be a survey directed specifically at lefty bloggers, and I’d be really shocked if GWB and Ronald Reagan don’t end up on it, along with a few favored members of the VRWC. Putting Bill and Shrillary in the top 20 was excessive–but when the lefties end up putting Ken Starr or Richard Mellon Scaife in the top 20 it will just be pathetic.
RW
Barney,
Folks had their own criteria. I listed murderers on mine, but someone could’ve simply put their worst 25 living politicians if they wished.
I actually set aside 6 slots on my list for NON-criminals, otherwise I could’ve simply looked up the worst 20 felons in US history and submitted a list.
Don’t ASSume that what your criteria would be was the standard. I didn’t have the Clintons on my list (and never considered them, actually) but without knowing the context, you’re looking for strawmen to presume that someone thinks Clinton is worse than Mcveigh.
Barney Gumble
Ricky-that was Roger Simon’s quote, not mine.
M. Scott-You’re the smug one here. let me know where that survey is.
RW
Barney,
oliverwillis.com
The smugness is validated.