Well, Ta-Nehisi takes Goldblog to the woodshed, but gently, because Ta-Nehisi is too nice a guy for that woodshed business.
I’m not sure it’s fair to teen-age boys to call the Atlantic blogs a circle jerk.
Update. I’m being totally unfair, the push-back here (from TNC and others) resulted in a near retraction. Pretty good.
Just Some Fuckhead
TNC emailed me and said he wished Jeffrey Goldberg would die in a fire. But I’m not the sort that would make that public.
freelancer
@Just Some Fuckhead:
BOOM! No one’s gonna top that.
naked lunch
Ouch. Do that again.
General Egali Tarian Stuck
I must say, I just don’t care whether the other Atlantic bloggers take Goldfinger to the woodshed. This all nonsense. The only thing I care about is what each of them, and extended to the larger media, writes about stuff that involves life on the outside their little workshops. This inside sniping and reporters spending their time reporting on other reporters is creepy to me.
Besides, that’s your job DougJ. A few specialists to watch the watchers is okay and good. But rank and file reporters in a perpetual pillow fight over motives and pecker size, is a waste of time and resources that could be spent on, reporting things that matter to the country.
And the overall personalization of media figures is equally disconcerting, as it is for politics in general.
PaulW
I’m not going to say anything bad about TNC. He lets me post like a madman on his Comments page and only disparaged me once for inappropriate trope usage.
Mike Kay
I think the point has been reached were Goldberg should be ignored/shunned, like Politico and WaPo’s editorial page.
Midnight Marauder
I’m not even sure it’s fair to circle jerks to call the Atlantic blogs a “circle jerk.”
MoeLarryAndJesus
What’s McArdle’s role in this circle jerk? The maypole?
beltane
Jeff Goldberg clearly needs work on his potty training before he is allowed back in the pool. Was that overly harsh?
Redshirt
No! We must keep the pressure on Goldblog! We’ll be greeted as Liberators!
Olive Oyl
It seems like each Atlantic blogger has to link to another Atlantic blogger at least once a day.
beltane
@MoeLarryAndJesus: That’s a funny one.
silentbeep
Really? Sully and Goldberg would fight about Israel all day if the Atlantic would let them, I’m sure.
Matt
This seems really off base. I’m not sure what DougJ was looking for, but Coates and Sullivan have now publicly and unequivocally disagreed with Goldberg on their blogs, in this case in spite of personal affection. And not just a one-line disagreement, but in depth criticism of Goldberg’s post(s).
I also don’t think I’d call the relationship between the Daily Dish and Goldblog a circle jerk. That would probably be the most dysfunctional sexual relationship I can think of.
sukabi
goldberg’s got the flogging a dead horse down… but I guess that’s useful in their circle jerk club.
Violet
@Olive Oyl:
This seems to be true. I wonder if it’s in their contracts or something.
Keith G
It’s not a circle jerk, they’re just Weigeling their weenies.
BTW, have we reached peak Weigel yet?……Please.
epweasel
The way I interpret this is that Goldberg, whose face Ta-Nehisi Coates has just politely pushed down into the dirt, is trying to laugh it off and hoping his snout won’t be pushed deeper.
Goldberg is an asshole, and TNC does seem to be a nice guy even when he’s skewering a fellow Atlantic blogger, but that’s as far as this goes.
Without taking the time to read any more of Goldberg on the subject, I can say on no authority that Goldberg is desperately searching for approval in TNC’s mild approach.
Without more than glancing at Goldberg’s post, it looks like he’s saying hey, look, another guy on the Atlantic didn’t shit on me without saying some nice words first.
Ain’t no circle jerk. Just one asshole trying to bluster it out.
geg6
I read both threads of the unmitigated pap TNC posted on this mess and he has managed to make me, a former unabashed admirer, disgusted enough that I will probably drop him from my blog roll and only click if I hear from a trusted source that he’s posting about the Civil War or Star Trek, the only two subjects I now trust him on. If you call a slobbering blowjob honoring what a great guy Jeffrey Goldberg is being taken to the woodshed, I guess that Goldberg is speaking accurately there. And his explanation about how you should never be angry or write about anything or anyone with anger is so juvenile and stupid and wrong that I can’t even respect a person who says such a thing. There are things and people worth expressing anger about. Anger can be, properly channelled, a great motivator and a tool to persistence. I cherish my anger and then focus it. That’s how I found the strength to walk the streets, knock on doors, and make phone calls from the fall of 2007 straight through to November 2008. And to get out and do the same for HCR a year later. Fuck TNC and his bullshit about how much he likes that bigot, liar, and warmonger Jeffrey Goldberg and how we should never say anything with anger. Fallows said not to say anything you woildn’t say to a person’s face. That does not necessarily exclude angry commentary. Unless, of course, you’re more concerned about Goldberg’s fee fees than with the disgusting shit he says and the death and destruction he advocates relentlessly for.
fucen tarmal
@MoeLarryAndJesus:
the soggy biscuit.
Anne Laurie
@Violet:
I doubt it’s required. You write what you know, it can be hard to come up with a new post-worthy topic, and it’s easier to contribute something about the dust-up down the hall than to find an original angle on Sarah Palin’s latest tweet attacking Lindsay Lohan or vice versa. One more argument against the Village-ization of our “public” media…
Jim Crozier
This blog post was a bit overly harsh in my opinion.
Goldberg posted something stupid. He was corrected on it by a peer at the same news source, and, upon correction, was willing to own up that what he said before was stupid and back away from it.
Isn’t that what we want our media to be able to do? I’d rather like it if more people would self-examine the things they have said, reconsider them in the light of scrutiny, realize they are full of shit, and move on.
fucen tarmal
these are the circle jerks you can believe in
Morzer
@Redshirt:
Don’t put too much pressure on Goldberg. Bad things happen when you put the squeeze on ten pounds of shit in a five pound bag.
Jenn
Oh, for goodness sakes. In terms of shit said about TNC, he’d have been better off not saying anything at all. But no, he criticizes Goldberg (albeit gently), & is one of the people causing Goldberg to re-evaluate his position and admit he was wrong. And then has to deal with the accusations, “but he didn’t criticize him ENOUGH!!!!!” We bloody well jump on the goddamn pundits when they pull this shit with Obama, why the pileon to TNC? He criticized a friend because he believed his friend was wrong. He got that friend to realize that, and admit it publicly.
You want better journalism? Maybe we can start with lightening up on our own fucking poutrage, and encourage it when something positive happens. We have a situation where a journalist criticized a fellow journalist; and the person who was justly criticized admitted his error. And it’s not good enough, because the initial criticism doesn’t hit all of our freaking talking points.
For the record: Yes, I like TNC; and no, I really don’t like Goldberg. I almost never read Goldberg; he is too blind to his biases for me to trust what he writes. And yes, I disagree with TNC’s assessment of JG’s reporting. That said, I am a really BIG fan of people admitting they’re wrong when they’re wrong.
NobodySpecial
Funny he couldn’t do that with the Saddam-Al Qaeda ‘evidence’ he pimps even to this day.
Fuck Goldberg.
ellaesther
@Jenn: I just typed up a furious response to DougJ’s post, and when I hit submit found I hadn’t logged in and it all got lost.
As I’ve been trying to regather my thoughts, you Jenn, have said something very similar to what I had written (though mine was laced with a great many swear words).
I’ll just say this then:
Fucking hell DougJ, Ta-Nehisi absolutely took Goldberg to the woodshed, he absolutely called him on his bullshit, and he is never one to allow bullshit to drift by unremarked — and yet he consistently engages with those with whom he disagrees in a fashion in which those people (and/or those who support them) might actually hear what he’s saying — a not inconsiderable advantage over much of what happens on the internet.
The man was raised right, and you’re accusing him of being an asshole sycophant because of it. Bloody hell. It’s not always a virtue to privilege anger and snark over thoughtful consideration and good manners.
Mojotron
TNC highlighted this from Weigel’s piece at (blechhhh) Big Gov. I found this pretty disturbing, but I let my subscription to Duh! run out a long time ago.
Svensker
@MoeLarryAndJesus:
LOL
Ed Marshall
@ellaesther:
I wanted to feel the same way until he started his “Saddam/Al-Queda” bullshit up again after he sort of apologized.
matoko_chan
Jenn Jenn, I don’t CARE about Goldblogs wankery.
I wanna explanation of why its okfine for TNC (as a black man) to say fuck Pat Robertson but not for me (as a woman) to say fuck Ross Douthat. Douthat is a toxic misogynistic creeper that spreads poisonous eumemes.
Pat Robertson is just a racist assclown that people goof on.
Douthat grafted that evil dimwitted succubus onto the conservative base. He is still giving her cover.
/spit
And Sully and TNC link him like he’s rational. “Palin is a feminist”. “We need to stay in the Graveyard of Empires until we “succeed”, w/e the hell that means.”
it means forever.
Do you know what i hate about conservatives?
Even their smart people are retards.
Sully and TNC solemnly nod their heads like Douthat has a point.
They can all DIAF.
Josh
TNC is a nice guy because his personal and professional survival preclude his being a harsh guy. Hence he got an interview with Cosby, which Michael Eric Dyson could not have; and he got Goldberg to listen, which Glennzilla could not have. But those are different kinds of achievements: the Cosby article is fine journalistic work, while adherence to MSM norms of collegiality perpetuates a system in which no assholery is punished unless it’s Left-liberal assholery. But how could TNC reject the whole system? You have to be an outsider of the I.F. Stone brand in order to stay genial and criticize the horrors that underlie the conventional wisdom; and that’s not TNC’s strength–he doesn’t seem able to conceive of a place from which he could be oppositional and not get consumed by bitterness and rage. He’s going to stay friends with the thug Goldberg; he’s not going to criticize Campbell Brown for parroting conservative memes; he’s willing to compare people who marched against the war in Afghanistan with teabaggers. But he will praise Rachel Maddow and any number of other liberals whose work leaves him impressed. And he has a very educational blog.
Fitzwili
@DougJ
@Jenn @Ellaesther
I think this is really an unfair post Doug.
TNC and others at the Atlantic may not have told JG to light himself on fire, but they did publically say that they considered his position to be wrong. We want media accountability,and here is the polite form of it. Sure, I would have gotten a thrill if TNC had told Jeff to light himself on fire, but that’s not exactly his style. Let’s say another person blogged here at Balloon Juice- let’s call him blogger X. X write something so intemperate and egregious about another blogger/ journalist that John, you, Tim F, AnneLaurie, mistermix all wrote posts that detailed why C was wrong in what he/she wrote- wouldn’t X feel rebuked and might X not apologize and say that he/she was mistaken? That’s what happened in this case- if you think this is a circle jerk – you might be doing it wrong.
Jenn
@ellaesther:
Re. swearing: yeah, you should’ve read version 1!
I think there’s this disconnect between criticism that’s cathartic, but frequently useless otherwise, and criticism that has a chance of having an impact. Going into attack mode is sometimes needed, there’s no question (for example, I’d love to see some judicious use of it from Congressional Dems); but when you’re trying to actually change specific minds, attack mode most of the time just causes people to get defensive, and then actual *hearing* stops.
matoko_chan
@Josh: TNC praises Douthat too.
So does Sully.
Douthat basically believes in the chattel slavery of women.
One would think TNC would be a little sensitive to that.
Corner Stone
I can’t wait til Goldberg shits all over someone again. Just some rank, uncalled for hack hitpiece.
Then we’ll see how he “heard” considerate criticism from a friend and colleague.
He’s an AIPAC sociopath with a clear record to judge his actions, reporting and decision making ability. And he will be the same tomorrow and the day after that and the day after that. TNC’s figleaf critique isn’t going to change that, and now he’s been somewhat further co-opted by declaring his manlove for Goldberg, and Goldberg’s reciprocation just ties the auto-asphyxiation knot a little tighter for them.
Maybe he won’t use anonymous BS to slag a fellow reporter next time.
Yayyy!!
ellaesther
@Jenn: At the risk of establishing a Balloon Juice commenter circle jerk — yes, you are entirely right. Getting people to listen is not just a virtue, but a skill that few possess.
handy
I know this is gonna sound like a question straight from the world of asshattery, which is unfortunate because my intention is not to sound like a too-cool-for-the-room asshat, but can someone answer why this is important?
gwangung
Obviously, since Coates isn’t slagging Goldberg to our liking, he should be condemned too. On all aspects of his thinking.
Manichean, binary thinking again. Not much room for the nuances of everyday life.
gwangung
Well, the teabaggers aren’t the only ones who need to know who’s agin ’em and who’s for ’em.
Prof. K&G
Hey geg6, I have friends who are republicans. I’ve been over to their house, had a few beers. I talk to them and generally enjoy their company. I’ve said and written nice things about them, and even wrote a recommendation letter once. They’re anti-choice, pro-war, and proudly voted for Bush.
I guess you should probably make sure you never read anything I ever say again. It’s a good thing I don’t have a blog so you don’t have to purge me from your blogroll.
Corner Stone
@Prof. K&G:
I’m surrounded by them, always have been. But my winger friends are not J.D. Hayworth. And they aren’t AIPAC assholes.
I’ve got some crazy ass wingnut friends that I’m happy to have lunch with, show up to their BBQ, or buy them a drink.
But then they go about their life, and I go bout mine. We don’t publish in national journals, and I don’t make excuses for them. If they cross the line I whack the dog out of them, no figleaf needed. And some have managed to stand that for 20+ years.
Console
TNC’s really just being put at fault for excusing Goldberg’s Original Sin. A sin that’s infinitely greater than the current issue of Goldberg assigning bad motivations to a guy he never ever read. I understand the animosity, but at the same time, the point of TNC’s post isn’t a dissertation on the career of Goldberg, it’s a specific criticism of this recent flap… which isn’t that big a deal in the first place. The focus on the Weigel thing has a large element of navel-gazing to it. And as such, it’s hard for me to see where TNC has to bring his Fuck Jeff Goldberg vibe to it. As long as his criticism is well thought out and effective, then that’s all there is to it. If you want TNC to indict Goldberg for this past fuckup AND his other ones at the same time, good for you, but i don’t see where TNC has the obligation to do so.
arguingwithsignposts
I think the bigger problem with this whole Weigel affair is watching all the village Young Punditocracy weigh in with their considered opinions and link to each other. I’ve mentioned before that I find the young village blogerati just as inbred and socially conscious as the old school broderites.
They’re all angling for the White House Press Correspondents’ dinner invitations and the Sally Quinn parties. McArdle, Klein, Goldberg, Douthat, etc. and all the people on the JournoList are just a younger version, which just goes to show that things that are meant to challenge the traditional power structure just get co-opted into the same bullshit.
Also, I agree with the General way up top.
ETA: As I said earlier, when Weigel wrote in his bigidiotjournalism.com response that he “admired” Dick Armey, he lost any respect I might have had for his reporting.
ETA 2: Also, McArdle is so constantly wrong on just about every fucking thing, and yet none of the Atlantic bloggers give her more than a mild slap on the wrist. Not speaking ill of your coworkers is probably a strong undercurrent at the atlantic, unlike how Greg Sargent took the WaPo anonymous staffers to task.
Corner Stone
@arguingwithsignposts: I agree with a lot of this. They’re all just looking for access and hence get paid.
And I have come to understand 100% why I have never read Weigel’s work.
Dude’s a jackass.
ETA – and the constant intra-linking is just more proof of the incehstuous nature of what they hope to accomplish.
Corner Stone
God. Never type the word ehn-sehs-tooo-ous, as in relations within the same family.
God D mod filter
TD
@Jenn:
This.
TNC criticism was partly responsible for Goldberg’s reevaluation. 9 times out of 10, such reconsideration only happens because people have their mistakes pointed out to them in an inside voice. Say what you want about the kind of tongue-lashing Goldberg DESERVES, but if you actually want to get to the man, if you don’t want to see him entrench himself behind his own pride and stupidity, it often takes showing them respect when you take them to town–more respect even than they may have earned.
arguingwithsignposts
@TD:
How about this: Jeff Goldberg is not Jonah Goldberg. Nor is he Jeff Goldstein, and for that, he should be praised. Otherwise, he’s a prick, and shouldn’t be paid by a major media outlet.
I would read more of the Atlantic circle jerk if they actually went after the others’ failings with a few more long knives. I’d like to see one of the McArdle, Goldberg, Ambinder, Sullivan types try to take down TNC for his civil rights posts. Ambinder used the exclamation point to announce that Ron Fournier was coming to an Atlantic media outlet, fercrissake.(!)
OTOH, McArdle has been deconstructed so completely so often outside of the Atlantic circle jerk that it’s basically a running joke these days.
With the exception of Fallows and TNC (other than the “I respect Jeff Goldberg as a reporter” nonsense), the entire stable of Atlantic bloggers are pathetic. Yes, even Sullivan.
Anne Laurie
(Reposted from an earlier thread, b/c I am lazy)
TNC —unlike most of his Atlantic fellows!—permits comments from his readers. And his commentors are quite capable of calling Jeffrey Goldberg out. It could be argued it’s more effective when TNC says ‘Goldberg is a nice guy in person, but I think he’s wrong about this’ and TNC’s regulars go Full Metal WTF on Goldberg’s bad faith, rather than TNC calling Goldberg… what he is… and having his commentors do the ‘now, now, I hear he loves dogs and has always been nice to his office ladies’ walkback.
geg6
@Prof. K&G:
Guess what? I have wingnut friends, too. I do not cut any of them a single break on any of their stupidity and, funnily enough, they remain my friends. Funny how that works, isn’t it?
And the reason I don’t drop them is that they don’t have a national bullhorn to disseminate their stupid, they don’t volunteer to be prison guards for the IDF, they don’t have the ear of national movers and shakers, and they weren’t responsible for the worst lies and distortions in the run up to the Iraq War this side of Judith Miller and angling to duplicate that murderous bit of bigoted thuggery with Iran. They are just poor shlubs who work hard and don’t have the time, education, or inclination to follow the details of our damaged political and media entities. What I have often found with my wingnut friends is that when given the correct facts, they do the right thing and apologize for their mistakes. Unlike, say, nice-guy-in-the-Atlantic-offices Jeffrey Goldberg. Not all of them, mind you, but enough (he’ll, a few of them even voted for Obama in the end). And those that don’t, I mock as needed.
I don’t give a shit about TNC’s manlove for Goldberg. What I care about is the lack of courage demonstrated by TNC in this instance. His “criticism” of Goldberg was so muted that it was hard to find amidst the praise for what a great guy Goldberg is at office parties or something. And the garbage about never writing with anger just tells me he has nothing to say about our national political discourse that engages me. If you can’t be angry about where we are today and at the people who unapologetically got us here, you aren’t worth clicking on for me. I like his Civil War posts and will continue to read them. But I can’t take him seriously any more about politics or national affairs when he’s more interested in Goldberg’s fee fees than in what psychopathic things he says and does. YMMV.
Paul in KY
I can’t get to him (because the software at work think’s he’s icky), but has Wolcott chimed in on this kerfluffle?
P.S. I was thinking this ‘Jeff Goldberg’ character was Jonah Goldberg & I was thinking ‘God, how could the Atlantic hire Lucianne Goldberg’s spawn’ ha ha.
Prof. K&G
@geg6: I cannot believe you associate with such people. These people supported an ILLEGAL WAR and WAR CRIMES and WANT TO MAKE WOMEN SLAVES. They are beyond contempt, and if you can’t see that, if you call those filthy worms FRIENDS – well, I certainly shan’t be reading your work any more. GOOD DAY.
ellaesther
Well ok then. I suppose I can’t stay pissed off. That’s a relief, because I’m too tired.
Thanks, DougJ.
HyperIon
@arguingwithsignposts: Jeff Goldberg is not Jonah Goldberg. Nor is he Jeff Goldstein, and for that, he should be praised.
This puts me in mind of J. Cole’s past defense of that idiot Goldstein. I recall how furious it used to make me. My problem with T-NC’s post is similar. It’s that “but he’s my friend” aspect.
Doesn’t everybody know that when “someone is wrong on the internet”, mere friendship is irrelevant? Full-throated denunciation is required! With tasty personal insults.
In other words…a plague on both camps. Idiots posters, meh. Self-righteous commenters, also meh.
you wrote: …Atlantic bloggers are pathetic. Yes, even Sullivan.
i would add: especially Sullivan.